“Soul and Spirit”. Volterra (Italy), July 25 1986.

The beginning of this talk has not been recorded so we begin when Shri Mataji is in the middle of defining the relationship between Soul and Spirit. The analogy she uses involves light, water and the glass that contains the water. As will become clear as the talk continues, the lìght would be the Spirit, the glass the body and the water which reflects the light, would be the Soul. We pick up the talk when Shri Mataji has just given the analogy.

Shri Mataji: …then it [the light] comes in there. This [the glass) is the body. All the 5 Koshas, the 5 auras, Koshas, are there. So these 5 Koshas are managed by the 5 elements, the essence of which can be called the causal element, the causal of the …

Gregoire: … the causal of the five elements. What we know as Atma in Sanskrit, is it the Soul plus the Spirit, or only the Spirit?

Shri Mataji: Jivatma is the soul but Atma is the Spirit.

Gregoire: So Jivatma is the Spirit but individualized;. belonging to one person?

Shri Mataji: No, no!  Jivatma is the soul. Means with these five elements. And these five elements give you  your own identity, your own character, your own particularities etc. These five elements; the way they are placed in you. That’s the causal element, the causal of the elements that are within you. Then these causals act on the chakras and through the chakras these causals act on the other …on the grosser side. So from the subtle to the subtler to the …you can say the subtlest. The subtlest we can say is the Spirit, supposing. Then the subtler is the soul. And the subtle you have the chakras. And the gross is the body.

Gregoire: So England should reflect on Italy then? [Mother, on a previous occasion, had told us that while England is the spirit, Italy is the soul of the Universe)

Shri Mataji: The soul is …That’s why all the art grew from here [Italy]. Now soul is the essence of all the elements of this Europe, which is here. And England is the reflection. So England has to reflect on Italy.

Warren: See, the water in the glass is reflecting the light. England is the light and the light has to shine out of Italy which is the water. I mean the five elements in a way.

Shri Mataji: And Spirit can move out of soul. That’s why the Romans went all the way to England. This is the reason, in that seeking. [Referring to the food being served] What is this supposed to be?

Gregoire: So in a certain sense the soul is the support of the Spirit?

Shri Mataji: No, no! Soul …Yes, of course. And both put together is the Soul actually. The Spirit and the causal put together is the Soul. You see, like a mirror and its reflection on it. Both put together is the soul. The causal of the five elements and the Spirit put together make the soul. Now the vibrations that we feel are the reflection of the light of the Spirit. The Spirit does not vibrate. It does not vibrate. It is those elements, they vibrate. Like you can say that if you put a sound on top of this (a glass of water) it will vibrate. You can put a stone in it, the stone won’t vibrate. But this will vibrate. The Spirit when it shines over it …(to Gregoire who translates) You have your food. From soul to food, from food to soul.

Guido: So in that sense, by soul you mean the Jivatma? The Jivatma of Europe.

Shri Mataji: But the Atma besides can move out. So the Atma has gone out of it which is a mistake. Now they have to recognize Italy. Then the Atma will be reflected. Because Atma can leave the soul. So the Atma has left the soul. There’s no Atma here. The Atma has to be brought here. The English have to come …..I mean the England has to come here, in the sense that they have to appreciate the greatness of this country. Then it will spread. You are the ones who can reflect the Spirit. You can reflect the Spirit. The spirit doesn’t do anything. The Spirit doesn’t do anything; it reflects. Then all the waves spread. Like in Sahasrara Day [referring to Alpe Molta, 1986]. Sahasrara Day you celebrated and in that the whole Europe reflects.

Gregoire: Shri Mataji when you came with a charter plane with all the English Sahaja Yogis [to celebrate Diwali Puja 1985) we all felt something great was going on.

Shri Mataji: Yes, the whole charter plane came. …You see, the Spirit is the one where the heart is, which makes the whole thing circulate. The circulation starts with that, but the one who …The elements are the ones really who are the carriers of that communication. They are the ones. But the ones, we can say, the speakers are the one who originates or who throws that light. It is in England  we can start it. But now, as I am in England, that’s the light, that’s the Spirit. And that’s reflected in you.

Gregoire: what will happen when you leave England, Shri Mataji?

Shri Mataji: Then the soul will be formed; before I go. Atma is eternal; It doesn’t die. But what is happening is, by that time, the work will be complete; a sort or realization will take place. Only thing is to raise the Kundalini and that is in India. So I’ll have to go to India.

Warren: To go to Sahasrara?

Shri Mataji: To raise the Kundalini first. Then go to Sahasrara. So that work I’ll have to do the stage work there, in India. But the awakening will start when this will be completely reflected here, properly, by the Spirit. That’s why I’m coming from England. I always come to Italy from England. Not from India. I could come. I represent England now, in this case.

Gregoire: (having added his own interpretation to a translation he had made, he now addresses Shri Mataji] I was saying that you come here as the spirit so that your manifestation, through that acceptance here, gets reflected through vibrations in the whole place.

Shri Mataji: I mean, it helps even the heart. Heart will not reflect so much. But your reflection will be received by the heart. The communication from the heart. I am establishing the communication. And a sort of message has been sent from the heart. We get all our information from the heart. We get all the programmes, this, that, from the heart; which is not so efficient but it comes from there. The heart is not very efficient but it is done. All that is like that. It’s systematic. And symbolic.

Guido: Also you say we have to achieve the deep quality of the Spirit?

Shri Mataji: Yes! You should be able to reflect your spirit. Unless and until you are clean you cannot reflect. So still there are many Sahaja Yogis, still are very caught up in Italy. They must correct themselves. Now, you see those people who are negative will always sit next to each other; always make friends with negative; will be more friendly with a negative. And that’s how, even if they are improving, they go down. They are improving a little bit, then they go down. Negativity will always join negative; have accidents; have problems; have this, have that; children will be sick. [Referring to the meal) How many courses are there?

Gregoire: So, Shri Mataji, this is also why there was this wonderful Ganesha Puja here one year ago: because for the causal elements to reflect the spirit they need to gain the essence of the elements which is Shri Ganesha …or I mean the essence of matter.

Shri Mataji: It’s very important. Because Italy is a very rich place also. It has everything in it. Such a rich place. And other countries who are not rich: take Switzerland, England; all these places are not rich. So like all the people who are poor they always make fun of the rich, call them “bourgeoise” …in the same way, they always make fun of the Italians. But really they are stupid people. It’s like that. So they make fun of the Italians. Whatever they will do, they’ll make fun. They think Italians are something rustic or something. It’s typical! In life also you will find; anyone who has money, everybody will make fun of them. It [Italy] has marble, it has so many hand-made things. And always the poor countries which are not …by poor I mean natural poverty, where they are extremely meticulous. Because you see, they have very little. Like miserly, meticulous you see; and very clean because there is so little they have. For a rich man doesn’t matter a little money gone this side, a little that side. Doesn’t matter. But this is what they make fun of. Because the stupid people haven’t got much from nature because …they don’t deserve it also. No they don’t. I mean, imagine, the way they have helped for the wars [Mother is here referring specifically to Switzerland).

Arneau: Yes, terrible!

Shri Mataji: What do they deserve? Imagine, helping Hitler, and still on top of the world!

Jeremy: May I just say that I am Italy’s number one fan, Mother!

Shri Mataji: (laughing) That’s becoming evident that your spirit is coming down here When they come and  see …you see, after Sahaja Yoga they will start seeing the beauty of this place.

Gregoire: Jeremy, you are the number two fan!

Shri Mataji: See, they (the Italians) are a very rich-hearted people. But everywhere you find this kind of an attitude towards them; in the art, in anything. They don’t like anything …you see in England I would say they don’t like anything that is good-looking. We went to see a house, imagine. It’s a crooked house absolutely.  Absolutely crooked house and I don’t know what sort of thing it was. And they all liked it. So I said, “What’s this nonsense? How do you like this kind of a house, when the beams are falling down, that’s all crooked, this, that? “

Jeremy: Character, Mother…

Shri Mataji: “Character!”  That means, supposing your nose is like this, you have ‘character’. I mean, it’s so absurd! You’ve  got to live there. You’ve got to live in that house. You’ll become a ‘character’ yourself!

Gregoire: Shri Mataji; when they don’t have natural riches, they create riches artificially. Like the banking system. Out of paper they make money.

Shri Mataji: I’ll tell you. You see now the experience of America. The affluence of America is nothing but plastic and rubber. What do they have? Canada has! But they always look down on Canada. Plastic, nothing but plastic. They eat plastic, they live in plastic, sleep in plastic, eat plastic. I mean, the kind of alabaster we saw today. Well, you cannot see anything like this but plastic; at the most glass.  At the most glass.  In India we have silk, we have everything. But everybody looks down upon us. [Mother briefly asks about the food then picks up the thread) In Switzerland if you buy one cotton shirt, it’s so expensive. Even rice, this, that. This banking business. No art, no art.