Conversation with Yogis. Northampton (UK), 5 June 1979.

… any dimension it must be, just think of it. Now the permutations and combinations are, as I said, are thirty-four, thirty-five, crores [Hindi word meaning 10 million] of permutations and combinations. So, I told our great mathematician, Mr Djamel, to work it out. He said, “Impossible!” And he told Me some number; up to that we can. But this is too much. How can you work it out? How many permutations and combinations there must be in thirty-five crores of your [mind; unsure]

Sahaja Yogi: Three hundred and fifty million.

That’s only – that’s the basic point, you see, but how many permutations and combinations out of them are active, and how they work it out? But the only thing that the human being has is to take it. You see, this is the most difficult thing. Even if you have the best on this earth, what’s the use? If human beings are not going to turn their hands towards Me, what can I do about it? Now all these permutations and combinations are fixed and very nicely done and they work very fast. They are very busy – I have seen it – and they work all over the world, all over the universe. But this little brain here is covered in something called as Mr. E G O and it’s very difficult for these little little things to ask them to open. It’s very difficult for them. They find it impossible and it is such a funny thing going on, you see, that every time a river flows and the people have to fill the cups that have to open, either they put the cups on the other way round or they put some stones and say that, “We didn’t get anything.”

So, this permutations and combinations business is so tremendous that I wonder at Myself sometimes how I speak to them, you see, to speak. You see, currently with all this going on you can imagine what must be the sense, and but for My sense of humor I would not have existed, allowed Myself to live. The amount of things I have to tolerate and the amount of [unclear] to which people come to and the way they behave, it’s fine, finding it out sometimes, and sometimes it’s the way they question Me. Then only thing I can do is to just laugh it out and use My sense of humor and be there and work it out. So this is the big problem and this problem is not so easy to solve, but some people do feel bad sometimes and they behave in a manner that makes Me know that they know about it very well and that’s why they are so frightened and they understand it very well

So, now we are today going to tell you about collectivity. You must hear the first part of this – is very interesting -but I am doing the second part now. Now, collectivity is a thing, is to be understood in a much deeper way than we have thought, you see. First of all, in collectivity, when we say this body is a collective instrument made out of many cells, all right? Then what do we understand? That first thing is, in collectivity we must realize that there is interdependence. We have to depend on others. Like he has to depend on her and she is dependent upon him. But when it comes to ego not only that it separates you from each other – that’s not the only thing it does – but it teaches you not to be dependent on anyone. You have to depend on others. You are not to exploit others but you have to depend on others and others have to depend upon you first thing very much. On this subject I’ll tell you a little more.

Now, for example there is one Mr X and another Mr Y who are Sahaja Yogis and X and Y have to depend on each other. Say a position like that comes up. So what should we do? We must try to find out the common point first of all. If there is a question of common point, it will not work out. So common point is – of course, you know that there is a common point between both of them – that they have been thinking and they have got it through Sahaja Yoga and that I am the person whom they think will resolve all the differences between them.

So, this is one common point, but the dependence between the two is to be prepared in a country where we don’t really go near them. First of all, when we try to depend on others, have we been able to create an atmosphere of dependence? Say, supposing you know I do not want My son to stay in My house, so how will I talk to My son? I will say, “You are good for nothing. You are such a liability. You are all the time on my head and you are troubling me such a lot.” All right. Or, “You cannot earn five pounds even.” What have you taught him? He gets hurt. “All right, I will show you.”

So, he goes out, digs a hole. He’ll do anything to show his mother that he can earn money, see, and that’s how he’ll work it out, isn’t it?

Another thing could be, simpler way, is to just throw him out, you see, and then you should say, “Look at him,” and you are having bad relations. I mean, you have done everything that is possible to create bad relations. Now, it’s just the truth. I mean, when you work it out that way, what do you expect to happen? The simple thing is that you have bad relations with each other. I mean, it’s the whole thing is worked out bad. So what is the other thing one has to do, is to prepare a ground.

Now how I would act if I want somebody to come to Sahaj, for example? I would find out what does he like to eat. What is he fond of? Or is he an intellectual? Then I should try to tell him that, “I don’t understand much or have not read much,” so that he feels all right with Me, that She’s all right. She is not an intellectual. There’s no confrontation at that point. So it’s all right. You see, intellectual is a trick, you see. I do it. So he comes in. Then when he gets realization, you see, how two people can inter-depend on each other after realization. You should see that supposing somebody is catching, all right. One way would be direct to tell, “Oh you are catching on Vishuddhi. Get out. We don’t want you. You get out. You are horrid. You just can’t stay”. That’s one way. Another is to say that, “Perhaps you know I think I am catching here on the Vishuddhi, or are you catching?” So prepare a proper seat for him in your heart. If you offer a seat in your heart, you see, half of these problems will disappear because he’ll have confidence that he has ? because he will feel that at last he has found out someone who understands.

So, the preparation should be more on this side, not on the other side of anybody who comes in, give him a punch, just like this. You must have seen these boxers have a punch in the house, you see, and any time they are passing by they just try to – I am sorry. So, and if they are intellectuals then they will try such punches which will be very subtle and intelligent. But a little bit, you see, put a little what we call a, in Indian language, a Phuljhadi, you see. Just put a little of a crackle here and there. And he goes out. He finds the crackle just bursting out, you see. So, all these tricks are self-destroying because you destroy yourself sometimes.

…yourself watch your own being. That is, how much are you disciplined in Sahaja Yoga? What are you doing for Sahaja Yoga? How much you are working it out? You see, I have seen, say, in a bhoot, you see. I always play such tricks with you, which I must tell you, that if there is something I’ll shout and say, “All right, now what are your suggestions?” So from the suggestions I know where you are. So I immediately know what is the position here, you see. I’ll take all the suggestions from you. Of course I do. But how much I agree…?…, that only God knows, you see. But, so the suggestions come in very seriously and I find that there’s a lot of negativity. So, it’s better not to suggest too much because if you suggest maybe you are a medium of negativity.

So, you first of all ascertain yourself how far you are, without feeling bad about it, because collectivity is the place where you belong to. You do not really belong to this individual being that you are. You belong to collectivity and that’s why you have to be there, and to be there you have to face your, all the time yourself and find out how far you are away from that collectivity, how far you are deciding things for yourself and not for the collectivity. You have to be very much on the alert and this is the discipline you have to pick out yourself.

The trouble is, you see the discipline we, if I tell you, “Get up at four o’clock”, you may get up. If I say, “Shave off your heads”, you can shave off. If I tell you, “Shave off your eyebrows”, you will shave off. If I tell you, “Just stand before Me for hours together”, you will stand on your heads for hours together. If I tell you, “You jump in the sea”, you may jump. That’s very easy discipline to do, nothing so difficult. You can do that. But if I tell you you have to be alert all the time, within yourself to see that are you in collectivity, are you doing something in collectivity, or you are doing something for yourself? Do not deceive yourself at this point because deceiving yourself means you are deceiving your collectivity. Your chances of being there which is beyond, which you have achieved. So try to do something which is congenial, helpful to collectivity. I’ve seen people, just wives talking to each other on Sahaja Yoga also. They’ll just pass a remark on someone, “Oh, he thinks he is being very clever”, you see. Now we have dropped a poison in the ocean of collectivity. Pour love, pour wisdom, pour understanding.

Put your fragrance of goodness. Do things in good faith. People have faith in you and they should not be shocked by the way we are. This is the discipline one has to have, and this discipline, if you have within yourself, for that you don’t have to do anything extra-curricular or something very much hazardous. No, to be on the alert, to be on the watch upon yourself. Am I there or am I doing it just to please myself, or to please this ego of mine? Myself is all right but this is the ego that one tries to work out, and that’s why interdependence is very difficult. You see, if I tell you, “Don’t be interdependent”, then you’ll do one thing. You’ll not borrow money, say, from others. That’s very easy. You’ll not borrow money. If I say, “Return every the money that you borrowed” all right, you’ll return every money. You’ll keep all accounts perfectly. I know you can do that and you can also have, “All right you can also have, all right you pay one ‘P’ all right, well one ‘P’ for one and a half – what do you call – slice of bread, to buy. You can do that. That you have done already and that’s not difficult for human beings. Equal distribution, absolutely perfect, honesty about it is possible. That one can do is to have a complete idea of how to maintain this beauty of honesty among yourselves, you see, that you do not depend. I do not mean that interdependence. I mean much subtler interdependence.

Interdependence comes in very, very easily. So, now you are sitting down here, now you know somebody is, for example, the name of the person, [Unclear: sitting with a person for a long time, just better check] somebody’s uncomfortable. You think about it. You are thinking, did you see that everybody is watching them? Are they all right? Give others a place in your place. If they are not feeling that you are thinking about their body, about their problems. Like I have seen when you love someone, you know that happens just to please him. That also not so great, just to think of that person more than yourself. Then you detach yourself from your ego. Have you been kind? Like this, there are so many things. In the night, have they got water to drink? All right, then you put a little water for them. All these small, small things you think of when you start loving. Oh, I am going to meet such and such a man. Now should I take something that person would like to have? A little thing, not much. This kind of feeling we should have all the time for others. Then interdependence is there. Then you will be amazed that the other person will depend on you entirely, entirely. Is not the independence of earning or money or anything that is important to such a person. If you can think that much for another person, that person can give everything to you and will entirely depend upon you.

Do you know I entirely depend upon you? Do you know that, that My complete existence is there because of Sahaja Yoga? Otherwise I would be finished at this moment. Perhaps you do not know it. I would not exist in this world if you people gave Me up. Is a fact which I must accept and which you must also agree. Because see now, if you do not take My vibrations, they will all be here frozen. I would become a frozen mummy, only emitting vibrations, that’s all. I won’t be speaking. It happens now. See, the left nabhi is just now, I am catching, is coming hard. You have to take out My vibrations. If you do not take My vibrations I am not going to exist any more as a human being walking, you see. And as something else maybe, but not as a human being as you see. I’ll be just frozen. If you do that to Me imagine how much I should owe to you. I mean, My existence is because of you. It is. Perhaps you do not know it. Do you know that I am here on this earth only because of you? Otherwise I would have been very nicely somewhere else. [Sounds like: tough luck] But then also you must know that as I depend on you, you also depend upon Me, but more I depend on your collectivity.

The moment you start becoming unaware of your collectivity, immediately cancer starts going in My body. I get physical troubles because of that. So the collectivity is not what you think of yourself, to be something great. It’s not that you are above everything and you are this and you are that. How much you have done to enhance the collectivity of understanding, of love. Because say if My, this hand doesn’t know this hand, now what do I do? If we are a living body, just think of it. I mean, if I do not know my one eye to another eye, if there’s no connection, what will happen to it?

And when you do all this it becomes a funny personality out of Me, you see. I don’t know how to manage Myself.

So, to sustain this interdependence you must learn to depend on each other. Now coming to the practical side of it I’ve already told you to think all the time of another person in a loving manner, not in a criticizing manner, not seeing to the loopholes of a person. See your loopholes and another person’s greatness. I mean, some people are real, I tell you, what we call drags, dragging down. Some people are like that. But to drag you is boredom you know sometimes, because they’ll talk about you, “Oh, this happened. Then my mother said so. Then my father said so. My grandfather said so. Then my aunty said so. I was coming – there was a seeker who did this and all round yourself. Is very boring! Just thinking about yourself, then you are not thinking of collectivity.

But a person who is collective is the most interesting person. The one who is not that way, he may think himself to be something great, so let him think, but he’s not interesting, extremely boring and people run away from such a person. The reason is he’s not collective. He’s not auspicious. So, to become collective you have to watch yourself like a [unclear sounds like : pussycat]. Now I would say for that, collective meditation is very important, which you have already experimented without finding there, those who have done it up to a point …….?…..and collective thinking. Now when ten people think together and are thinking collectively, it should move like one force. Even the water which is a dead thing for all that, it runs towards the slope, isn’t it? Or does some water run upward? I mean, it has one Swabhava. It has one style of thinking. In the same way Sahaja Yogis all must run towards God, towards Sahaja Yoga, towards collectivity. How can they run upwards? There is no individual working on this point. Once you start doing that way you are doing just the opposite of what you should be doing.

Then they’ll say, “Mother why we are not good? We have been working for so many days. It doesn’t work out.” This is the problem. If you are in the collectivity, even if you are not so good, you will be pulled in to it. Now what happens, it’s such a vicious circle that when you are not all right, you will always oppose others and create some sort of a silly situation, or you’ll bring out silly propositions or something like that you see, like a boulder inside the flowing waters. [Sounds like: so we find a little water]. And the suggestions from negative people will be always negative. So if there is negativity within us better to keep quiet. That is the biggest thing, to work it out, negativity. Better to keep quiet if you have negativity within you. Better to keep quiet. Try to remove the negativity. Because if you do not try to do that they act as mediums and they can use you as mediums and you become a medium of Satan instead of God. There you become very collective really. There’s a big fraternity among them.

But after realization the drive should be much more that you can resolve because there’s lots of mud sticking on the lotus which has come up. But when the lotus is high enough the fragrance is emitted. All the lotus in the beautiful pond emit the same fragrance and intensify. Nobody goes and says that the fragrance is from one lotus. The whole lake is named after [Unclear] imagine. The lake becomes smaller after the lotus flowers. That kind of fragrance of love should grow between you and such excitement and joy should be among yourselves, then the collectivity. Now for that you must know that you have to have self-preservation..?… It’s very important.

Like you say you are ten Sahaja Yogis here….?…, all right? So you must have the style of lotuses and you must have sense of self-preservation against other things. Now see somebody outside has come in. Then you all should immediately come together and form a nice club of your own, you see. Then the other person comes in. With all this force he will be dragged into it. But as soon as he says anything against anyone of you, you all jump on him. Then he will know they are all one. But normally you will find if somebody comes in like that possibly you may join the other fellow who is no good, who is going to create a problem between us. There is a possibility. So remember when facing others you are all one. Among yourself you can talk but facing others you should know they are the people who are still away from us. So this is the self-preservation thing which is very important you should have, and the self-preservation in Sahaja Yoga is to be preserved. In it’s purest it is very important responsibility on you people, because future Sahaja Yogis may not see Me, but you have seen and you know what is the truth.

You see, here the way we have lived a very pure ideal and pure Sahaja Yoga, absolutely above all kinds of nonsensical things. In the same way the people who are going to come after you also must think in the same way, in the same fashion. So you have to make a very pure relationship and a pure club among yourselves by which the people who are going to follow the progeny which is going to come is going to say, “This is what is being in Sahaja Yoga.” So the self-preservation also means the preservation of Sahaja Yoga in its purest form.

Now I’m here a living Person. If you have any problems, you want to know God, whether it should be done or not, you can ask Me. Clarify it, but do not accept anything because Mr X, somebody told you this, Mr Y told me. Nothing of the kind, never do like that. You are – do not quote anyone else, even that person may be in Sahaja Yoga. I must warn you of this. Never confuse each other that somebody said so or another person has said so or someone said so. No, if you are doubtful ask Me. Verify it. And quote it only when you have verified it. Quote should be very important because you are the foundation stones of Sahaja Yoga and you have to be – every one of you have to be perfect so that this huge big mansion is not going to topple down because of you. There should be no weakness left in you. That’s why it is important to understand that the self- preservation, preservation of Sahaja Yoga in principles…

[Only transcribed up to 28 minutes]