Kazu Radio Interview. Santa Cruz, California (USA), 1 October 1983.

(Aarti ending.)

Shri Mataji: Beautiful!

Sahaja Yogi: Bolo Shri Adi Shakti Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi ki! Jai!

Shri Mataji: Who is the gentleman who met Me in Kamini Kadam’s house?

Sahaja Yogi: Are right there.

Shri Mataji: Hello, how do you do? Very nice to meet you. Both of you were there?

Gentleman: Yes.

Shri Mataji: All right. May God bless you.

Shri Mataji: How are you sleeping?

Gentleman: Fine, thank You.

Shri Mataji: May God bless you. Nice to meet you again.

Sahaja Yogi: Mother, a lady from Kazu Radio actually who is coming as a seeker but has also arranged that, if an interview is possible.

Shri Mataji: All right.

Sahaja Yogi: Barbara! This is Barbara.

Shri Mataji: Yes. So today we should have questioning only will be good idea. All right?

Barbara: Thank you, Mother.

Shri Mataji: May God bless you.

Barbara: Before we begin, I would like to introduce myself to those of you in the room. My name is Barbara Schuler and I do a radio program on a station from Monterrey called Discovery, which is usually on Wednesdays from 1 to 2:30, and is going to be now on Thursdays to 11:30 to 1 o’clock. And it’s my privilege to be here to do a taped interview for my listeners. So for the listeners I would like to say that we are at Kennolyn Campgrounds in Santa Cruz and this is an interview with Her Holiness Mataji.

Mother, today there are many, many things said about Sahaja Yoga, about Your philosophy and very little was said about who You are as a person. And I thought it would be good to start out with some, few questions about who You are, who were You as a child, what people influenced You, what brought You to the place You are today as a Luminous Being sitting before me and before us?

Shri Mataji: I am a very ancient being – that problem is like this, you see? And to… what can I tell you about Myself? I just don’t know what part will interest you, but only thing I can say that I was born with this understanding and awareness that I have to find out a method by which I could give en mass Realization to people. I was a Realized soul, of course. I knew all about it from My very childhood. But the problem was that how to make many people get it, because if one person gets it or one person has it, if one person is an incarnation, people don’t understand it. Not only that but they may even try to destroy such a person. That’s what happened to all the saints who came on this earth. Christ was crucified, Mohammed Sahib was given poison. Because they were ignorant. They did not know what it was, what was He saying.

So it was important first of all to find out a method how to give them en mass Realization. And from that angle I just thought that this is why I am on this earth and I have to do this job, for which I wanted to study about human beings. I took My birth in a Christian family and that too a family which was Protestant family, because I felt that Protestants are fanatics but very sophisticated. And they rationalize everything to such an extent that nobody can see beyond it. So I better take My birth in them. And My father and mother had already taken birth whom I had chosen as My parents. They were great people, realized souls and specially My father was a person who knew why I was on this earth. Even My mother knew about it. So a special rapport was between them and Me and they could understand why I was busy meditating or finding out about how to give Realization to others. Then I would say My father who was a very learned man, who knew about fourteen languages, who translated Quran-e-Sharif into Hindi, who was a member of the Constituent Assembly, He made our Constitution. Also he was the only Christian to be elected in those days. And then My mother was a honours in Mathematics, all very well-educated and nice people. They dedicated their life to the cause of freedom of India. And I also felt that, that was very important, because if we are not free we cannot do anything on religious basis.

There’s one thing is to be free from this level. And that’s how I also helped them a lot and our whole family suffered a lot. And I went through terrible times, terrible times, since very young age. I was with Mahatma Gandhi also because he liked Me very much as a child. So I stayed on with him then I used to come back to study, again go back to him. He used to call Me “Nepali” because My face is a Nepali face. And he used to talk to Me as if he is talking to his grandmother sometimes. He was very sweet and he was a very sweet man – extremely sweet person to children – very strict with himself and strict with others elderly people. But with children he was very, very sweet and kind and would try to learn from children lot of things. It was surprising how he understood that there’s lot of wisdom with the children sometimes than with the older people who are mixed up.

Now we got our independence and we had a very bad setback because of the partition we had in our country. And I was studying in Lahore Medical College there because I wanted to know about medicine what these people call such and such thing, because I knew all this but, I knew about the body, I knew about everything, the what you call the complete nervous system but I did not know what was the vocabulary attached to it, so I studied there for two years. Now after that, this war broke out, so I had to discontinue with My studies and My parents wanted Me to get married. And then I found that My marriage was important, I agreed to marry and I married this gentleman, Mr. C.P. Srivastava. Then during all that time, My only pastime or the full-time work was to find out about human beings, what’s the problem they have, how they avoid reality, how they shun it, how they run away from it, what are their problems, how are they seeking, what do they have to offer, what will they accept, how to handle them. It was quite a intricate question.

Every person provided a new sample of problems and I had to fight it out. In a way that it was a system which I knew how to do it, because to enter into somebody subtly, to understand the problems of the Kundalini – you can go into the journey and find out about a person. And then I found out the permutations and combinations of their problems. So like, it is like, you can say, that, like periodic tables. You had to divide them into three, then into seven, then into their permutations and combinations. So you can imagine – three into seven, raised to power eternity. It was like that. But doesn’t matter! It worked out and in the year 1970, on the 5th of May, I was little bit hesitant at that time. I thought I should wait but certain circumstances made Me to open the last center. And when I opened the last center, it started working with others, it went on en mass scale. But still I gave Realization only to one lady who came to My house. I tried if it works out with her. And she, I gave her Realization, by touching her centers one by one – six centers – and then bringing out the Kundalini on top of the head.

Barbara: What does it mean to open the last center?

Shri Mataji: The Sahasrara?

Shri Mataji: Last center is the center which is the limbic area; where is the seat of all the seven centers. It’s all integration there. So far, everybody who has come – like Christ has come on this center, what you call the Agnya Chakra, or Krishna has come on this center which is the Vishuddhi Chakra. Like that they have been appearing on every center of ours giving us a new dimension to our awareness. And that’s how our awareness has improved to this extent and now the time is for you to get your Absolute, to get your Spirit, that your Spirit must shine into your attention, that you should have your Self-Realization, that you should have your second birth. That’s the time! And that is only possible if baptism, the real baptism works out – real, not artificial, somebody coming and putting the hand on your head and saying, “Now you are baptized”.  That’s not the way. But it is a real thing that happens that you start feeling the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost coming out of you. So then I started giving first of all Realization without confronting any kind of a position or anything. I started with one lady, then I went ahead with it. Then the first twelve people got Realization. Then I was very happy because en mass Realization has started. Then gradually it started working out. I went to Indian villages. I thought they are better, simple people, first work on the simpler people. And they got Realization. Now we have thousands of people in the villages who have got Realization. They have dropped out all their bad habits. They have become very creative. They are doing very well. They are very happy people. And they are experts. So many of them are experts I can say in India now, whom we call as Sahaja Yogi, may be in thousands. Some are working in the villages, some are working in some cities. So we have lots of people now in India, who can do this job.

Barbara: This all happened since 1970?

Shri Mataji: I started it.

Barbara: [So You started]…

Barbara: I have a question that’s important to me and to many people who are searching for something as they think, perhaps what you call Self Realization or Sahaja Yoga or something. We, some of us don’t know exactly what it is. And we find that there are many teachers. How do we recognize those teachers that You might call fraudulent from the real ones? It’s so difficult because they all seem to be able to inspire us in certain ways and give us experiences. How do we know who is teaching something that’s true and who is being deceptive?

Shri Mataji: First and foremost thing is: anybody who lives on your earnings is not a guru. A guru will never live on the earnings of his disciples. But here there are people who have big palaces, bought aircrafts and cars and this. I mean, this is something one should understand. It’s so, so open to you to understand. I mean, I cannot understand more obvious thing that this one is that it’s a parasitic living. And you cannot have a parasites as your gurus. They can be parasites but not your gurus. That’s one of the things. And if you can… I mean, you can retain some people, you know? If you want because you are rich people, you can retain some. That’s a different point. But you cannot have them as gurus. Guru has to be a higher personality, you see? Now you have seen Christ was such a great incarnation. He didn’t take any money from anyone. He was a carpenter’s son and He used to do carpentry Himself and He lived like a modest man. He never lived with big cars and big houses. It’s not necessary because such a person is Himself, He is a very big king, you see, like a big emperor. He doesn’t need anything, an emperor doesn’t need anything because nothing can give him comfort except that He Himself is in complete comfort. So such a person doesn’t want anything. So you must see that such a person has no needs of comfort at all. He can sleep on the grounds, he can sleep anywhere.

Now, in this life, I should say I come from a quite a wealthy family or married to another wealthy man, you can say that way, according to your own relative ideas. But to Me, I can sleep anywhere. I have no problem. I have no problem of food, no problem of sleeping anywhere, no comfort. And I find it is beyond My self-respect to live on the earnings of others. It’s not proper. But you are My children; supposing now you bring a flower to Me or something, it’s all right. But I can’t have a palace out of your money and all those things. It’s absurd, absolutely absurd! So this is one thing one should know that it pampers our ego, that we can purchase our guru, we can purchase our Self-Realization. You see, this is a very subtle pampering. And that’s how people accept, you see? They don’t want to accept a person who says, “You cannot offer anything.”  It’s too much for them. Or maybe that, secondly, could be that people think that if you pay something then you get attached to it, you go through it whatever it is. Say you have paid for a ticket and you find that the whole play is horrid, you can’t bear it, but you have to go through it because you have paid for it. That’s a human nature, you see? That’s a human nature. I have seen that they do it. And that’s what it works out. But this is very gross level, I’m telling you.

But another should be that in these modern times it is promised that you will become prophets. You have to become prophets. So you must see have you become prophets out of these? Is… easiest is to see the disciples of this man, any XYZ who says he is a guru. Now what is happening to the disciple? Is he a free person? Has he got any knowledge? Has he got any mastery? What has he achieved by being with that person? Now, you have seen here there are Sahaja Yogis. One better than the other! You talk to them, they are knowledge. Some of them have met Me only for, say, eight day or so. They have become knowledge. So what have they achieved you should say, what is their style of life, their pattern of life, how they behave? And there cannot be any privacy about it, you see, like mafia, “You don’t tell that and you don’t say that and you shouldn’t do that.”

Of course, in Sahaja Yoga the truth is exposed gradually, but it is not like this that if you give some money, nobody knows. Everybody knows everything in Sahaja Yoga, you see? Now supposing we have to build an ashram, say for example. All right, you build your ashram, you collect your money, do what you like and know about it. I have nothing to do with it. Also among yourselves, you should know how you got the money, how you spent it, what is the expense and all that. Because ashram you can pay for but not for your Realization. And this is one thing is very important, that what you get out of it is important, that you should become a prophet. Have you become a prophet?

Then, thirdly, you must know that if you are going from one to another, what we call guru shopping business that means you have not found it. Otherwise, you would just settle down. But some people are so weak that they do settle down with one and are finished with them. You must always see the people who go to these gurus, what have they got. Have they got their transformation? Because this is the age of transformation.

Barbara: Mataji, what about teachers or gurus who produce miracles? You go to a guru who materialize something out of the air and say, “This is divine”. That’s a very serious question. Shri Mataji: This is all jugglery. It’s all jugglery. And also, you see, now supposing somebody says, “I produce a diamond”. Now these people come from India. Why don’t they solve the financial problem of India? Secondly, you see, at every point they can be challenged. You should say that, “Then, all right”… One gentleman came to Me; he said that, “He gave me a diamond.” I said, “Why you? How many diamonds you have?” He has said, “Hundreds.” Then I said, “Why did he give you? He should give to your driver who hasn’t got a diamond”. You see, that is what it is. So it is all jugglery. You should see those who materialize, what have they given you? They have to give you something eternal. If they talk about God, God is not going to give you diamond. Which God has given diamonds to people? Have you heard of anyone giving diamonds? No!

So you should ask for something which is the highest, which is the supreme most. Now the fourth thing, which is very important, that whatever experiences you get – for example, some people start just like jumping, some start shouting, some start behaving like animals. And they say, “Oh, that’s what is coming out. You are taking out, you see.” They feel very bad, they get horrible diseases, they get into troubles and they get into pains and all sorts of things and contortions. They say, “Now, your subconscious is coming out”. Nothing has to be brought out. That’s one thing you must know. The subconscious, as I told you, is on the left-hand side and the supraconscious on the right-hand side. What you have to do is to ascend in the center and come up.

Above your head is the super-consciousness and when you become that, then you develop collective consciousness. So those who want you to become like frogs again, you must know that you are not going to become frogs anymore. That’s not anyway evolution. The evolution has to go higher, not becoming frogs or earthworms, you see? And if you start crawling, it is simple mesmerism. Anybody mesmerizes can do these tricks, you see? It’s simple mesmerism. And then to believe that now you are surrendered and all that is all nonsense, you see? It has no meaning to Realization.

In Realization, you just become the master. You become the master of it. There are many people in this country who came and lured you by their talks also, talking big about Brahma, Atmatattva, this, that and everything. That is not the way you can, that is what is just the pendulum moving from Christian sermon to Hindu sermon and from Hindu sermon to Islamic sermon, from there to the Rabbi sermon. You see, it goes on like that, you see? That’s not the way. You have to rise higher within yourself. And that’s why those who lecture about these things are really sometimes can be very, very dangerous. And so many have died of cancer, this, that. I don’t know what to say that people who go to these people get into very bad troubles and suffer so much. And then on top of that when all this happens, they say, “You must suffer.” That’s a very good excuse, “You must suffer”. You must pay to suffer. Pay money to suffer. And then people go on suffering. Now one thing I have to tell you that Christ has suffered for us. We don’t have to suffer anymore. Those who deny His sufferings, will have to go for suffering. All right, have it! But He suffered for us. There is no need for us to suffer anymore. When He is awakened within us, He takes away all that is our ego means our karmas, our superego, that is our conditioning, completely removed, and you become one with the Divine. There is no need for anybody to suffer and this idea of suffering is all nonsensical. You should not suffer at all.

Barbara: Good! I’m glad it’s over.

Barbara: Mataji, You are called “Mother”.

Shri Mataji: Yes.

Barbara: It seems that in Hindu tradition there is a special context or meaning of the word “Mother”. What is this meaning?

Shri Mataji: You see, in the Indian philosophy, even in the Christian philosophy it is so, but it has been little bit changed – if you read the books of Essenes, you will find that they have described the “Mother”, you see, the Holy Ghost is the Mother. When they say about the Holy Ghost, She is the Mother. But how can you have… You must reason it out. How can you have a Father and a Son without a Mother? It’s a, you see, simple thing like that. You see, so it’s the Mother only. Holy Ghost is very important. So Holy Ghost is the Mother. You see, it’s an absurd thing, I mean, to have such a thing. Even homosexuals cannot have children. It’s funny thing, isn’t it? Absolutely absurd! But Christians accepted this, I don’t know why. Why didn’t they go into, find out what is this Holy Ghost business is? They said, “It’s a mystery”. How can you say it’s a mystery? When you cannot explain then better not say anything about it. So Holy Ghost is something hanging in the air. No one knows; it’s a mystery and the rest of it is the Father and the Son. It’s absurd!

Now the principle of Mother is in every, every Scripture, has to be there. Now the Mother’s character is that She is the One who is the Womb, She is the One Who is the Mother Earth and She is the One who nourishes you. She nourishes us, you know that. And this feminine thing in every human being resides as this Kundalini as you have seen. And when She rises, She gives you this new awareness which becomes compassion, which is flowing, which becomes soothing, nourishing energy of love. And that’s what today people are saying feminist – all this thing and all that. That’s again a pendulum – a man becoming a woman, woman becoming man – all these problems you have had because of this. But when you move spirally upward, then where do you move you become a personality full of compassion, of love, of universal understanding, through collective consciousness. And then you rise up to a position where you become universally conscious. So that is what should happen to you. And if that happens, then we should say that your motherly qualities within you have risen. And that’s what we have so far neglected. You do not become a woman but you become motherly. First the Father, then the Son and now the Mother! All right?

Barbara: What is the role of woman in this world, the role of the feminine principle?

Shri Mataji: I would say, I don’t say that women as women who are born as women only have the role, even the men have, everyone has, because everyone has Kundalini within them. But the women must know that if they are women, they have a greater responsibility. Not that they should sit at home and only look after children and brood and then nag the husbands when they come home. That’s not their role. The role is such that they have to be forbearing. Any person who is the mother has to be like the Mother Earth. How much She is forbearing! How much She suffers! We dig Her out, we torture Her life still She is giving all the time; She is soothing, forgiving, bearing it out, you see. Then we are doing so many sinful things, I mean, She should explode real with anger, the way it is. But She does not, She is very careful, She slowly, slowly informs that, “Now get out of this place, it’s rumbling”. She is so kind, you see? That all should come to us. So it’s not that it is only the women who should settle down with these qualities, but the time has come that men have to have these qualities. Otherwise, there will be always an imbalance. So now the men have to become extremely kind, affectionate, compassionate. Give up that competitive spirit, that fighting spirit like Napoleon had. All those ideas are outdated. Now whom do you respect? People like Mahatma Gandhi or Abraham Lincoln. Everyone…an American should think of Abraham Lincoln.

Barbara: Yes, indeed. Mother, what are we doing here? What is the purpose of life on earth? What are human beings walking around on this planet for?

Shri Mataji: You are specially made by God. You are specially chosen by God to be human beings and you are here with a very great purpose. The first purpose of God is that you should become the vehicle of God’s powers, completely. So that He flows through you, He flows into this atmosphere, into this universe, to make it a divine place. If you, when you get Realization, what happens? These – all your abnormalities drop out and you become very normal person and these vibrations of cool breeze start flowing. With this now you can give it to Mother Earth, you can give it to the plants, you can give it to the trees. The whole thing becomes a “Garden of Allah”, where you reside in complete joy and happiness. The second purpose is, that God has prepared you now, to settle into His Kingdom. That’s your throne. That’s your right to be there. It could have been short circuited at a time when Adam and Eve were called and told not to go into this so-called “book of knowledge” or the “fruit of knowledge”. But they didn’t listen. You see, if you give freedom to someone then, “What’s wrong?” So they started doing things which were brought to them by a satanic force and they accepted it. So that was the original sin we have committed. So they had to take incarnations, do all those things and now brought it to this level where human beings have to be brought again back to the position where they were to go.

Barbara: Mother, what is the true nature of death? Is it possible that you can choose not to die? What’s the purpose of death?

Shri Mataji:You see, death is just like changing your clothes. So sometimes when you use too much of your clothes, get tired, you want to change it. Like that death is. Nobody dies, there’s nothing that dies except that the part that is the Mother Earth and the part that is the water falls off and you remain as you are. But if you are a realized soul, then you have a choice. If you want to be born again, you would like to reborn. If you don’t want to be born, you will not be born. But after Realization, it becomes your choice. If you want to die, you can die. If you don’t want to die, you need not die. But you want, because you think that, “Let us die and come back as new people again to help Mother.”

Barbara: Many of us have heard discussions or read in books about the evolution of matter, the evolution of the substance. What are Your views on evolving matter and how does this relate to our own physical matter in our bodies or cells?

Shri Mataji: So the matter did go into evolution, you know that, and when the carbon was established, actually our first chakra was established. That’s carbon which is tetravalent and carbon is the one which started producing amino acids. You see, when amino acid started manifesting itself this… then the other processes took place by which the evolution of, say from amoeba to human stage took place. That also we understand very well after getting Realization, how we became from amoeba to human stage; and after human stage we have to achieve our Self Realization, means the Spirit which is in our heart, has to manifest in our attention, or we have to feel it on central nervous system.

But what is the relationship between matter and this? We should see that point. It’s important. Now through the matter all our centers are made. For example, the two centers that are down below are made of the Mother Earth principle. And then another one and another one like that. All these elements have contributed to make the centers. And these centers are just like mirrors made and the reflection of the Divine falls on them. Then at a human level the matter improves so much, goes into such evolutionary processes, that the reflection at the heart level improves so much that the Spirit shines there, and the Kundalini is properly set for your evolution, which is the epitome of evolution. Like this instrument that is made one by one, first collecting this part, that part, that part, then put together. Now the time has come for you to be put to the mains. Now this has nothing to do with the electricity, if you see. It exists without electricity but it can carry the electricity. In the same way, we become the lamp, and when we become the lamp the light can be brought in and we become enlightened. So there is a big relationship between the lamp and the light. But light cannot exist without the lamp, so lamp has to be there.

Barbara: Mother, can I ask you a question about sex?

Shri Mataji: Yes, please.

Barbara: It was stated today that sex has nothing to do with evolution the way it’s been described in Sahaja Yoga. What does this mean?

Shri Mataji: You see the thing is that we think that by doing sex or by going into sex we can evolve. It’s absolutely falsehood. You have not become a human being from amoeba to this stage by doing sex. Because animals all do sex, everybody does sex. If they do it or not, makes no difference! The thing is the evolution takes place only through your seeking. When you start seeking something, then only you evolve. And the seeking first was for food, if you see in the animals was for food, you see. Sex was spontaneous. They don’t think about it; they don’t read about it; they don’t have any education about it – nothing. Sex comes all spontaneously, just like your breathing, you see. You don’t have to have as you have in your schools now teaching sex. What is there to teach I don’t understand, I mean. It is such a spontaneous thing. On the contrary, the more you talk about it, the worse it becomes, you see. And the more it becomes a brain thing, you cannot do sex with your brain, you see.

So it’s all a nonsensical thing. All these things have added to your problems of impotency and all sorts of things in this country. Too much thinking about sex, at the time of sex you are nowhere, you are lost. So what’s the use of such a life, you see? So the people who think about sex too much are really very unnatural people, they are very unnatural. To be natural is to keep it spontaneous, to live very spontaneously. Of course, as an Indian lady, it is too much to speak on details but I would say that… And we are not supposed to even say the word “sex” in Indian life, you see, it’s like that, you see? But I think we are very potent people. The amount of children we are producing, you can never produce even if you want to.

So now the thing is that as a Mother I give all sort of grace to these people, grace marks I should say, when they said that the sex can take you to Kundalini, because you know, in the beginning they must have tried something like that and they must have seen the expression of the deity which has got a trunk, you see, which is settled on this center. We call it as Ganapati who actually incarnated as Christ on this earth, later on. But He is the Ganapati. And there you see just a trunk and they must have misunderstood that this trunk is the Kundalini, because it has a shape like that. And that’s why they might have said it, but it’s the most dangerous thing. If you go through sex, then you are open yourself absolutely to hell. If you go towards sex and try to come to God, it’s absolutely wrong, you see?

Christ has gone to such a limit because Christ was born here and He looks after our all optic lobes and all this part of the eyes. And what He said, “Thou shalt not have adulterous eyes”. Just see it! What does that mean? That means you have innocent eyes. He was innocence. He was the embodiment of innocence. “Thou shalt not have adulterous eyes” No lust and no greed in your eyes. Now is only possible if Christ is awakened within you. Once He is awakened within you, then you will have your innocence and you will also lose the lust from your eyes. Eyes will be absolutely looking but not getting involved. That sort of a thing will happen to you. So the sex which is a normal thing to do has to be sanctified by collective people, should be done in a proper way so that you get good children. The marriage should be sanctified collectively and should be done in a proper way and should be looked after. Because now, of course people are on a different line, but when I had come ten years back, when I told them, that you have to have sanity about sex, they were very angry and they said, “You are Victorian”. They called Me “Queen Victoria”. But now I think they have learnt a lesson because I had told them, I had told them that, “You will get a disease which you will not be able to work on. Don’t do all this nonsense of perversion. It’s very nonsensical.” But even now they are trying to evade the issue. Don’t try to evade the issue. You can be cured of that disease if you can awaken your innocence within yourself. Through the grace of Christ only you can do it.

Barbara: Mother, we have learned, heard that when, when we learn love then we shall have will. What is the relationship between love and will?

Shri Mataji: When we’ll have love, then we’ll have will. Good! Love is when you become the Spirit, because Spirit is nothing but God’s love. This All Pervading Power is Spirit. So when you know that love, which is not attachment, it’s not attachment, you see. Like a sap rises in the tree, it goes even to the trunk, and then to the branches, to the leaves, to the flowers, to everyone. It doesn’t settle down into one flower. If it does, then the flower dies and the tree also dies. So it is not attached, but it is nourishing. It does what it has to do. That kind of a love, which is absolutely without any conditions, unconditional, without any lust, without any greed – that kind of a love – when you will know, that is only possible when you will become the Spirit. Then you will know the Will of God, the Will of God – what is to be done. Because you don’t know. Now you have to… Then when you get your Realization what happens? This cool breeze is like a computer working. You ask the computer, “Now, should I do this work?” If it is yes, you will have cool vibrations. If not, no vibrations. So you will know His Will. “Thy Will be done”, you see? How do you know His Will? Then you just know. You become the knowledge. When you become the knowledge, when you become the love, then you become the knowledge also. Even in everyday life, if you love somebody, you know a lot about that person.

Barbara: Mother, this afternoon You said something very interesting in response to a question by a woman. And response You gave was that “Service and sacrifice are a myth, or is a myth.” Can you describe what You meant by that?

Shri Mataji: You see, when I said that, when you become a saint, in the sense when you become a realized soul, you find that you are collectively conscious. Then what happens, that if somebody has got a problem you feel it on your fingertips. Now you rub your fingertips and the person feels all right. Now you have done no service, you have done no sacrifice. It’s your finger that is in trouble. Now if you rub your finger, who is the other? You see this comes out of ignorance and those… In India actually, they knew it so well that those people who talked of sacrifice and service were called as Shudras, means untouchables. That means they had no knowledge about it. Those people who talked that, “We’ll serve you; we’ll do this dirty work of yours, that dirty work of yours” – they were called as Shudras. They are not the people who should be touched because they have no awareness that the All Pervading Power of God is there which does everything. What you have to do is to just become one with It. And once you are one with the whole Primordial Being, say, on your body if there is a pain somewhere, you just rub it. All right, you rub it and it’s all right. There’s no obligation on it. In any way you have not served anyone, you have not obliged anyone. So the concept that you are one with the Whole itself is the noble’s concept. And those people who do not have that concept cannot understand. They think, “We are serving others; we are looking after others.” “Who is the other?” I asked them. “Who is the other?” That is why this is the concept with which Indians have always lived. And that’s something good they have.

But they also picked up, you see, when your missionaries went there they also started their missions, this, that, serving and serving and all that. “Now to the poor people, now how do we serve?” We serve in this way in Sahaja Yoga that once they get their Realization they don’t remain so poor at all. You see, because first of all the poor people have bad habits of drinking; all those things drop out. So all that money doesn’t go into nonsensical thing. Secondly, they get those vibrations. Now whatever work they are in, they become dynamic. They have no health problem. They don’t have to go to the doctors. They become healthy people. Mentally they are so alert that they do better than any other. We have seen people who came to Me and said that, “Our children are very bad at school. Must do something about them.” When they got their Realization, now they stood first. They got all the scholarships, everything. They are doing so well. So, such people become also materially better off. They don’t become extraordinarily rich but they become materially well-off, satisfied people. You see, also dissatisfaction is another poverty, because you are dissatisfied. I think those are the greatest poor people because they are never satisfied. But the people who are realized souls, are satisfied souls. They know how to live well and they are helped. Like Krishna has said it, “Yoga kshema Vahamyaham”. He said, “I’ll give you Kshema after Yoga.” First He said “Yog.” And “Kshema” means your well-being. So well-being acts after Yoga, not before.

Barbara: Mother, in the West there is a great, especially I would say in this part of the West from the West Coast, there is a great interest in subjects such as Kabbalah, tarot, astrology, spiritual alchemy. How does Sahaja Yoga relate to this? What are Your views about this?

Shri Mataji: I can’t understand. That means they are not seekers those who have such interest, you see, because these things relate to a material life.

Barbara: Mataji, how do they relate to a material life?

Shri Mataji: You see, because Kabbalah will tell you when will you get married, or how much money you’ll have, what race you’ll win, all those things, you see? God has no interest in these things, you see. All these things are, spiritual alchemy, how will you change this into gold… And what does it matter? Gold and all those things what are so important, isn’t it? The most important thing is to be your Spirit. And those who are seeking the Spirit are real seekers. All others are seeking money in some other form, you see, and then when they go to these people actually these are nothing but spirits – and they get possessed by spirits and they have horrible time, you see. One should never indulge into these things. Christ has warned the most of all and we are doing it so often. It’s very wrong to ask for anything material like that. Why should we have easy money like that? It’s not good I think, through some spirit helping you or something. I don’t know if it really helps. It may little bit help but give you later trouble. Like one lady had a problem with her husband, you see? She said that, “He is a bad man; he’s a flirt and all that.” She went to such a woman and he became as far as she is concerned, he gave up flirting but he started racing. And he got lost in racing. Then she went there and she said that, “Now he should be all right from this, He should get out.” So he started drinking. And after some time he started doing all the three things, you see. So it was too much. So this kind of a nonsense you should not indulge into if you are seekers. But there are category of people who are seekers. That’s what I feel. And those who are seekers are getting into it should get out of it and get to your Spirit.

Barbara: What’s the role of the artist in this work, this Sahaja Yoga?

Shri Mataji:Who?

Barbara: An artist, artistic work like music…

Shri Mataji: Oh, great, great! Tremendous it is! You see, those people who have been realized souls have created eternal art. Like we can say, Michelangelo was a realized soul. So his work is eternal art. They produce art which creates vibrations. You can feel vibrations from him. In the whole church if you go you feel horrid, but when you go to Sistine Chapel and see his work and the whole thing fills you up with vibrations. They are creators of vibrations. Imagine! The musicians like Mozart… Mozart creates vibrations but Wagner… You see, so they are the people who are realized souls. You have some tennis players who are realized souls also perhaps you don’t know.

Barbara: Tennis players?

Shri Mataji: Yes! McEnroe is a realized soul and Borg is also. And My grandchild told Me, “You know, why Borg has retired?” “Because another Sahaja Yogi has come now, the younger one, so give chance to him” and that’s why he is very honorably retired. Is because when McEnroe speaks, you must have seen, he tells himself “John, now behave yourself.” They are in the third person. And that’s why people don’t understand him and he doesn’t like to be insulted. And that’s very true. And anybody who is a saint doesn’t like him to be insulted. So like that you have so many people who are realized souls, we can say. Even the Princess of Wales [Diana] is a realized soul and the new child is a realized soul. So there are so many people like that, who are realized souls.

Barbara: The listeners who will be tuning into this program on the radio, won’t have had the experience of being in Your presence. Some of them may have, who were in this room. What can you say to them about how to become a realized soul, how to achieve this cool breeze that comes from…

Shri Mataji: At the beginning of My lecture, if you tell them that they should put their hands towards the radio, just on the radio, they might feel the cool breeze. If they don’t feel it, then tell them to put the right hand first till they feel the cool breeze, and left hand up as if ventilating out. And then the left hand towards the radio and the right hand up. It might work out because it has worked in Hong Kong.

Barbara: I tell You it would be interesting. I interviewed Danny and Doug before You came so that listeners would have a chance to come here. And one of them called me and said that he went into a meditation in the afternoon and felt the cool breeze just by hearing them talk.

Shri Mataji: See, if Sahaja Yogis can do it then when I’m talking it should happen.

Barbara: We are about at the end of the interview and what I want to do now, Mother, is give You a chance to say what’s in Your heart to say. What is there that You wish to share has not been said this evening?

Shri Mataji: I have to say that America is a great country in the universe. It has the place of the Vishuddhi Chakra, which is the center of responsibility and discretion. And they have been so responsible so far. They have given such noble ideas of democracy and of freedom and all those things which are really all belonging to God’s ideas. And when they talk of all these things, we must know that there is something much more that they can give to the whole world. So many saints are born in this country because they realized that this is the country where they’ll be able to prosper better into their spirituality.

So it is a very great responsibility of Americans to understand that we have had great leaders, we have had great noble ideals, we have had got great saints living here, so many are anxious to come down here. Only thing what we have to do is to establish within ourselves our Spirit, and to be ready and prepared for this great, tremendous work that is going to come now. And this is what the world has to do. If emancipation of the humanity has to take place, it has to take place only from inside out and not outside in.

Another thing I would like to tell that the danger is not from outside for America, not from anywhere else. It is from within themselves. So be careful. We have to be careful about ourselves the way we are destroying. When we say, “What’s wrong?” we go head long into our destructions. Human beings should not take freedom as abandonment, but freedom to enjoy completely and fully. The freedom that takes you to a destruction is not freedom. And the right idea of freedom must be taken and people should know that freedom, ultimate freedom, is when you become your own master, when there are no habits, when you cannot be dominated by anything, you are above everything. That’s the freedom you have to achieve. And that is why people talked long time back in this country about freedom. They helped all the countries to get their freedom, and now it is their job to get them their own freedom within themselves so that others will also follow. May God bless you all.

Barbara: Thank you, Mother.

Shri Mataji: May God bless you. Good? All right.

Now, that was really nice of her to give so much time. You see, it’s important, because your medias are also for Sahaja Yoga only created. Everything is for Sahaja Yoga. They have to act for Sahaja Yoga only, because this has to spread everywhere. Christ could not have met the whole world, you see? But I can.

So after all that, I want to announce something very good and excellent for you, a great news, that doctor Warren Reeves is going to be engaged to Ursula today. I hope you like it. What joy, eh? Creates joy! Such a great thing! It’s a collective.

Marriage has to be collective, then it is sustained. It has to be collective. Indians know this trick. You see, they have a collective marriage. Everything has to be in the marriage; even the reeves of the village, even the barber, even the washerman, everybody is to be there, has to work out something for the marriage. So the whole community is there to marry and that’s how the marriage you see is there because everybody looks after you, you see? If there are many forces on one point then the point remains where it is. Doesn’t shift, you see? So there is no shifting marriage. Equal and opposite forces always acting on one point, you better be there.

Sahaja Yogi: Mataji, do we have to call him doctor Selmayr?

Shri Mataji: What?

Sahaja Yogi: Do we have to call him doctor Selmayr after this?

Shri Mataji: Doctor…?

Sahaja Yogi: Doctor Selmayr?

Shri Mataji: To Warren? Yes, yes. You will do like that. Yes, very well. Yes. It’s a very good thing, great news for all of you, isn’t it?

Sahaja Yogi: Yes. Yes, pretty good.

Shri Mataji: Now… Should we have the question thing going on? Because Sahaja Yoga you have understood quite a lot I think. Have you? Because now in this Vishuddhi chakra of yours My Vishuddhi is working too much. It’s a continuous, every day, continuously. And I am coming from Europe where I had a very intensive programmes for 21 days and I stayed in London only for two days and third day I was here. Since that day My throat is really… First time I felt it. Now, if you have any questions you better ask, will be good idea.

Sahaja Yogi: Mother.

Shri Mataji: Yes.

Sahaja Yogi: What is the difference between a self realized being and an enlightened being?

Shri Mataji: And?

Sahaja Yogi: Between a self realized being and an enlightened being?

Shri Mataji: Same, the same.

Sahaja Yogi: The same – an enlightened being and self realized being!

Shri Mataji:Oh, yes I heard it.

(Now Mother is joking with Warren.)

So I think now his (dr. Warren) attention should not be so much on Me, isn’t it? He should pay more attention to something else now.

Dr. Warren: Then I’m not getting married, Mother.

Shri Mataji: Listen that! Very bad!

Now, Self Realization and enlightenment is the same thing like you enlighten first a candle. So first you are very careful that it takes up the flame. Then you look after it very carefully, could keep your hand watching that it doesn’t go out, you see. In the beginning, very important to see that it keeps its flame burning. And you do everything to keep it, because once it is out again it will be difficult to enlighten, so you do that. And that is what is what we call the awakening first time takes place and you have to establish it. Then you establish and once it is established then you go on enlarging your light and you see that you become the light. Spirit is the flame that is burning. All right? I think I left My watch somewhere in it…

Sahaja Yogi: Mother?

Shri Mataji: Yes.

Sahaja Yogi: Could You say something more about the, something about negative forces? You mentioned that the other day.

Shri Mataji: Something about?

Sahaja Yogi: About negative forces.

Shri Mataji: Negative? All right.

Shri Mataji: About all these spirits and…

(Tape cut here.)