TV Interview. Geneva (Switzerland), 10 August 1989.
[The interviewer speaks in Italian to Guido who translates the question to Shri Mataji.]
Guido: What is a seeker, please?
Shri Mataji: Seeker is a special category of human beings which are born in these modern times – whom William Blake* has clearly described. And he said that men of God, at these times they will be born, and they will know divinity, and they will have power to make others also. Very clearly, he said it, William Blake*.
Guido: What is Your opinion about Jung?
Shri Mataji: Jung? Jung was the one, he was the same as Blake, a seeker himself, of truth. So, he didn’t accept Freud. And he thought that there was something wrong with him. He has trained also in philosophy and I think he did go to India. Not only that but he got his Realization. And after getting Self-realization, he wrote about Collective Consciousness. He wrote so many things, which we can now feel it ourselves. And he was a man who gave good pictures of what will happen to a person when he once gets Self-realization. I should say we should be very much obliged to him for giving us the truth. It was not just a mental projection, but it was a capture training of his own evolution.
Guido: As you may know Jung was a Swiss man. Do you have any particular message for Swiss people?
Shri Mataji: You see, Jung saw that people were seeing images in their dreams and things, which were very similar to the images of the festivals they have – of the whole thing. And he started finding out why these people have those images. So, such images, according to him, happened in past. And they are going into their past when they sleep. And that’s how they could see those same images in their past, like that. He was a, I must say he was a very dynamic and a very brave man to fight such a formidable work of Freud, you see. Because also, he was a guru also. So, he was really very remarkable. And as a Swiss, I must say, he was a very enthusiastic about giving the truth to people and I wish Swiss do the same, that they become the same sort of thing.
Only when I addressed the meeting of the Indian Society in New York- I had not read Jung, but I think he was a great soul. So I went through his book only once like that. And I saw a little place where he didn’t understand the totality. And that point was here, when he said that the unconscious was down below. Then was the subconscious, collective subconscious, then subconscious, then conscious mind. And then he said that the supraconscious and all that. He put then in layers parallel in the body. But they don’t exist that way. They exist on the left and the right.
You see, because our creator is the greatest organizer. If you have to go to the airport, you don’t have to go through your luggage, everything – there is a passage for us to go. So he has kept a passage within. And it is kept on the left is the sub-conscious, and collective subconscious. And the right is the supraconscious and collective supraconscious. In the center, the path is absolutely left, absolutely clean. But we may have, in our ignorance, we spoil it. But otherwise, the central path is absolutely clean. I think that’s why many Jungians started going to the subconscious. There is no need. It’s not a layer. That was the only place where I found that he couldn’t see the totality of the thing. But that’s not so important because afterwards, he said so many nice things.
Guido: Talking about the Collective Unconscious, in which period are we living now?
Shri Mataji: This is a special period, in which the Collective Unconscious is to become or will become conscious. The Collective Unconscious is the one that is all around us, that is the subtle energy. And this subtle energy is the one that does every living work, every living work. Like this flower now. You see, the flowers – to us it’s not a miracle. But it’s a miracle, if you see that. All living work is done by that Collective Unconscious – which we call as Brahma Chaitanya in Sanskrit language. So, now it is going to be conscious in the sense that we are going to feel it ourselves, as cool breeze in our hands.
Guido: If you can tell something about your teachings, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Actually, teachings are none, I should say, because main thing is that, I just try to explain to you, that there is this Collective Unconscious around us. And that you have to feel it. Unless and until you feel it, no use giving lectures about it. First, you must have the experience of it. And in that light, you can see everything very clearly. So, my only teachings are that first, you should try to feel that Unconscious. That is only possible when you get your Self-realization. And you should first get your Self-realization. That is the main point. Like Buddha also didn’t want to talk about God – about anything. He said, “You get your Self-realization.”
So, we have to only understand that we are not at an absolute point. Human beings are living in a relative world. We are relatively living. So everything has a confusion. Because some people say, “We are right”, others say, “We are right”. But nobody knows what is right. So, to know the right, you must get connected to something that is absolute. And the absolute is the Collective Unconscious. This is my only teaching is that you just get to the understanding that we have to have Self-realization. And once you get to it, then it can be worked out. But if you do not get to that point, you see, we cannot force it.
Sahaja Yogi: Once upon a time the disciple used to go through austerities. It used to take many years to get their Realization. Now it is upside down in Sahaja Yoga. First you get your Realization and then you do the cleansing.
Shri Mataji: You see, these days people have no time. You know they make watches all the time. Because there is no time even for Self-realization. Then when I thought all of these things, you see, I knew my mission in life was to give collective Realization. And to give collective Realization, I wanted to study human beings, what problems they have.
Now their problems are that can be resolved using very simple things. Because there are only seven centres and three channels. So, you have to just put your attention to these three channels and the seven centres. And if you can manage the permutations and combinations – you can reach the awareness collectively. It’s not difficult. That is something I found out. And that’s why I thought that, “First, give them a little light.” When they will have little light within themselves, they see what’s wrong with them.
Because if you tell somebody, “This is wrong with you” in those days, they put you in jail. So the best thing is to have little patience with them and see that they get little light to see that something higher exists. Like if we are living on the ground floor, we are not aware that there are higher things. But if somehow, we can go on to 2nd or 3rd floor, then we start thinking there is higher and higher things. So this is what is Sahaja Yoga, is first to give them Realization. Of course, some people get it like a jet, because this is the jet era, this is the time of jet. And they just settle down, some of them are tremendous. Very young people also, I’ve seen, just get fixed. But some of them are conditioned, have got problems with the – some have got emotional problems, and some have ego. Most of them have ego. So this has to be little bit shown to them, “This is your ego.” Once they start seeing their ego, they will be down.
Guido: Which condition we have to fulfil in order to get our Self-realization?
Shri Mataji: One thing very important is not to feel guilty, not to feel guilty at all! Because this is also a very funny human understanding. Animals never feel guilty. Dog can eat whatever he likes, a cat will eat a mice, but nobody feels guilty about it. Only we human beings feel guilty. And after all, we are human beings. We are not gods. We can make mistakes. So there is nothing to feel guilty at all. Because what I am talking about, this Collective Unconscious is the ocean of forgiveness. That’s one condition.
The second condition is that you have to forgive everyone. Now many people say, “It is very difficult to forgive”. But it’s a myth. Whether you forgive or you don’t forgive, what do you do? If you don’t forgive, then you are playing into wrong hands. Absolutely into wrong hands. After all, you are actually fulfilling the desire of the people who tried to harm you. So, just try to forgive. And this is what Christ has said that, “You have to forgive”. He has given us a very big weapon of forgiveness. And if people do not forgive, I cannot give them Realization. Because the door of Christ, which we call as Agnya chakra in Sahaja Yoga, is very narrow. And as soon as you start pondering or thinking about how you are harmed and how you are tortured [inaudible]. So to open this, only you have to just, from your heart, say, “I forgive everyone”. It acts. It works.
Guido: And the third condition?
Shri Mataji: There is no other condition. Third would be that you have to be human being. In your own will you have to come, of course. In your own will and in your own freedom. Otherwise, it cannot be forced on anyone.
Guido: As You know there is a big Guru market. What do You think about it?
Shri Mataji: You see, the Guru market is inevitable, because they have come to know that there are seekers and there is seeking on. Now those who have money have a feeling that they can purchase a guru and they can buy their spiritual ascent. They don’t know it’s a living process and you can’t pay for it. Nor can you buy your guru. Then if you can buy someone, if you can pay someone then he is your servant, he can’t be your guru. So, people who have money, especially in the West, always go to false gurus. And false gurus also have attraction for the rich people. That’s why Christ had said that, “A camel can pass through the nose of a needle but not rich people”. The reason is that rich people have an ego that they can purchase even God. They cannot. And that’s why these false gurus are prospering. I don’t mind even if they plunder you with money, it’s all right, money is not so important. But, you see, they do something within you with mesmerism and all that, so that the Kundalini does not rise. I have to treat them, I have to look after them. So many suffered them from cancer, epilepsy, angina – all kinds of diseases because of these gurus. So, we just have to cure them. Immediately we know that they have been to a guru. So, these gurus really have ruined so many seekers! So, this is the greatest sin they have committed, just to make some money.
Guido: Why false gurus took their incarnation in this particular period?
Shri Mataji: This is a period of seeking. And they knew that in this period, the seekers are promised to get their Realization. They knew this. And that’s why it is also predicted, that so many will take their incarnation. Because there is a market for it.
Guido: Will You tell us something about Kali Yuga, this particular period?
Shri Mataji: Of course, they look so horrid, all the incarnations are these horrible gurus. And also human beings have reached a stage where they feel there’s a shock of complete destruction awaiting them. Also, we can say that human beings have reached the extremes in everything: take machinery, take ecology, take anything – they have gone to the extremes of everything. So, now they are looking back for the balance. So when it is at the extreme stage only, you start thinking, “Why this? Why that? What mistakes we have committed? What should we do? How we can correct it?” And once you start reflecting, then only Sahaja Yoga can act on such people and then they get their Realization. So, Kali Yuga is very important.
Like in our old scriptures of Nala-Puranas, the main Purana, they have written that, this Nala was tortured by this Kali. Kali is the one who is the – according to Indian mythology, is the one who brings this confusion. So Nala got hold of this gentleman and he said that, “I am going to now kill you. Because you have tortured me, and I don’t want you to come back again on this earth. Because again you will torture people and bring confusion”. So Kali said, “All right, I also have some importance. You listen to me”. He said, “So what is your importance?” He said, “My importance is this, that when I will rule – this confusion will rule then those people who are seeking the truth in the jungles, in the Himalayas, in the dales and hills will reflect. And they will be ordinary householders and in this Kali Yuga they will get their Realization”.
Even there’s a book written by a very old astrologer. I would say he was the pioneer of astrology in India – Brigumuni. And there are two books he had written, one ‘Guru Sanghita’ for normal people and one ‘Nadi Granth’ for the future. In that he had described completely Sahaja Yoga. That their Kundalini will rise, that they will get their Realization, that they get cured – everything. So, all these prophecies are made by seers, long time back, and is described. So this is what is the importance of Kali Yuga, that unless and until you go into confusion, you don’t want to find out the way. You take it for granted.
Guido: The fact that the people are in a way running away from the traditional churches and religions – does that have any means?
Shri Mataji: See, because the religions have lost the essence for which they stood. The essence of every religion was to find the Eternal and to treat the transitory with full understanding and its limitations. But the churches themselves have forgotten the first part, is to find the Eternal. Or we can say our temples, all these religions. But they are seeking the transitory. So, the whole essence is lost. All the religions came on the tree of spirituality by the great incarnations and prophets. On one tree, saying the same thing in a different manner, in a different time, according to the times. In Sanskrit, we call it ‘samayachar’, according to the times, according to the need. But these people have plucked the flowers. And they have taken the flowers saying, “This is mine, this is mine”. But the flowers are dead.
Guido: Shri Mataji who are you?
Shri Mataji: You see, this question I don’t want to answer. The reason is, Christ said, everyone, but specially Christ’s life, you can see, what He said was the truth, that He was the son of God. We know that. That He was the path and He was the door is also the absolute truth. But what happened to Him? He could hardly work for four years. And they crucified Him. Now I have to do the job, you see, if I tell anything then they will try to crucify Me, or poison Me, because human beings are mad. They don’t want to take the truth which is good for them, for their benevolence. They are children, I should say, they are childish. So when they will get Realization, they will mature, then they will know who am I. But before that I don’t want to tell anything. Because they are capricious.
Guido: Thank you very much.
Shri Mataji: I think you are great people. But here the problem is that, unless and until the authorities here understand what is the importance of Sahaja Yoga, they are going to be troublesome. There are troubles and have troubled everything. And they should try to understand that I am trying something for the benevolence of the people. This is what it is. I hope something of your endeavour works out in their plans. So, they think everything is a cult and a sect and a this and a that. It is not.
Like the Catholic church now trying to protect itself, it definitively calls everything as a sect, but they have become the sect. It’s like that. It’s all right. I think it will work out. Truth has to fight the ignorance.
[Applause]
[END OF RECORDING]
Then are you all going for the program now?
(Yogis having discussions with Shri Mataji)
Shri Mataji: And that is why they are fighting among themselves. All the false people fight among themselves. That’s the only fame they want. they fight because nobody knows the truth.
Yogi: And their brain has become the [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: You can’t say we can be Americans and the Protestants wholly the some. You see the archbishop of Canterbury was asked, what is Holy Ghost? He said I am agnostic. I don’t know anything. Then the fellow has asked him, “What are you doing there?” He said, “I am doing my job.” You can imagine, how can these people be in jobs. They are not provided by God. This all are man made like a brand, all these things are maddening. God has nothing to do with it. Because he doesn’t know anything. And in the Catholic faith it’s all risky. It’s not only about Christians. You see, you can feel their [UNCLEAR], what about Muslims, what about Hindus. Hindus are the worst in so many things. Only advantage is, that Hindus are not organized. Not politically, not nationally, nor spiritually, I mean in religion, they are not. There is no religion organizer Hindus who will say this is important. They don’t have much respect for the so called priests. You see, they just give them money to do this ceremony or to do that ceremony, they do it in Sanskrit, that’s all. But nobody has respect. And nothing is great to consider about them as the Pope is. Hindus are that much advanced, so far. So far.
It is actually an advantage is that in India that we have a background of saints. Because it was not organized so, there came so many saints. Of course they tortured also, [UNCLEAR] even some princes respected saints. So from the very beginning of Raja Janaka’s time, they respected saints. Shri Rama’s time, Shri Krishna’s time – saints were very much respected. So the tradition of a saint was very respected [UNCLEAR], they have a background. So these people couldn’t work in India, they have come [UNCLEAR] and the false gurus can not work in India. So they came as gurus, all the false gurus, because they know you have no background.
Sahaja Yogi: We are going in the hall now.
Shri Mataji: [UNCLEAR] coming in to hall and we’ll see what is the reaction and then we’ll work it out. And you come to India. To Ganapatipule. It’s a new thing. It’s a heaven there. You should [UNCLEAR] come with them. And he will see whatever he has written is false [UNCLEAR]. It is false [UNCLEAR].
Yogi speaking: This is [UNCLEAR] of Shri Mataji, in the Ganapatipule Ashram, you can hear some music.
Shri Mataji: I don’t think I have seen.
Yogi: You have seen Shri Mataji in Rome Ashram in last year.
Shri Mataji: Then you should invite him to see these. [UNCLEAR]
And if he comes to London then you can show some real stuff to him. So he is invited and he can come. Also he is invited in the Pratishthan.
(Laughter and other comments).
He should go and see Pratishthan also.