Radio Interview, Geneva, Switzerland, before the 29 of August 1973
… Exhaustions causes the diseases and sicknesses, even mental sicknesses at different levels. Now this exhaustion takes place because we go to extremes, you see. That extreme use of things that’s why it gets sick faster. And these exhaustions are fulfilled or nourished or, we can say, vitalized by these, so the person feels all right. It’s very simple.
Lady interviewer: So, that’s what Western medicine or what medicine in general calls organic diseases. It’s nothing more than an imbalance of the forces of love and the Spirit.
Shri Mataji: Of course, of course, no doubt. But I would put it like this, that the modern medical science as they are, they talk of the autonomous nervous system. Autonomous, what’s for?
Lady interviewer: Autonomous nervous system.
Shri Mataji: In that, we have got the left side autonomous nervous system and right side the autonomous nervous system as sympathetic nervous system. And in the center, we have parasympathetic nervous system.
Now, the sympathetic nervous system acts for all emergencies, for all our extreme behaviour. Under these two, form the centre in- and in the centre lies the parasympathetic nervous system.
Now the parasympathetic nervous system has got limited energy which it supplies to the sympathetic to keep a balance. But if you go beyond limits when you exhaust it completely then parasympathetic also fails and there is no balance brought in.
Now if you ask any doctor and if he is honest, he will tell you that they don’t know anything about parasympathetic nervous system. Now, who is this “auto”? We should find out. This “auto” is the Spirit. And when this Kundalini rises, she enlightens and nourishes this parasympathetic nervous system which again, by itself balances.
I don’t have to tell you that, “You don’t drink, you don’t do”, I never say that. You yourself will not do it because religion gets enlightened within you, the living religion and you just don’t do it. I mean, you just don’t do it because your attention is not there anymore, finished.
Lady interviewer: I’ve heard you saying, “Never try to give up a bad habit but if you think first on the Lord and trust on God then those things give you up” like a-
Shri Mataji: They run away, they run away. You see, there was a gentleman, a doctor. He came to Sahaja Yoga and he lost all his habits. He became master of its own.
But once he came to Germany, after two months, and he said, “Let me try” the wine he likes. “So, let me try the wine, doesn’t matter”. And he regretted, he felt this horrible [inaudible], got all the smell of the molasses in it, he threw it and started vomiting. He said, “What is this nonsense I have been drinking?”
Let that it happens to you, I mean we have had alcoholics, people who have been taking drugs for years! People came in coma to Me. You won’t believe, they all have given up. I never tell them. I am a mother, I’m not here to dominate or to curb your personality. I’m here to nourish you, to make you grow into your own being to be your own master, to be your own guru.
Lady interviewer: Then suppose that somebody listening says, “My greatest desire, my greatest slack rather, is companionship. I’m living in this town, I’m alone, I don’t have any friends, I go to the office every day and I just come home at night to a lonely place. What can I do to find companionship and love?”
Shri Mataji: You’ll get companions and companions and you’ll have no time to feel alone. That’s what is one thing definitely promised in Sahaja Yoga. Because what happens, you become collectively conscious. And once you become collectively conscious, there are so many who become collectively conscious with you because it’s a mass thing that is happening today. It used to be individual before now it’s mass, that’s what I have done. That’s my- I should say, if you say it’s my discovery, how to become a mass evolution.
Lady interviewer: How to do the mass?
Shri Mataji: Mass, a-mass, this happens a-mass.
Lady interviewer: A-mass?
Shri Mataji: A-mass.
Lady interviewer: Collectively?
Shri Mataji: Collectively. So, thousands of them can get Realization at the same time.
You’ll be amazed, I have taught one gentleman from India who has come. He has given Realization to ten thousand people himself in India.
Lady interviewer: How do you give Realization?
Shri Mataji: I mean there are no words to say, it manifests I mean to say. There is no giving as such.
Lady interviewer: So, you open yourself to the being, [?] brilliant?
Shri Mataji: No, you see, it is simple, as I would say an analogy, like a lamp is ready; say, a candle is ready. Now another candle which is enlightened can enlighten another candle, isn’t it? What do you do? Nothing.
Lady interviewer: So, you just, you just are.
Shri Mataji: Manifest, yes, you are. And you become that.
Lady interviewer: And-
Shri Mataji: then you become the same, you can give it to others.
Lady interviewer: So, you are recognised, each person that is ready for that enlightenment recognises there.
Shri Mataji: I don’t rationalize.
Lady interviewer: Yes, [inaudible].
Shri Mataji: I don’t judge anyone. I just stand there and people put their hands toward Me. And finished! Some people are declared to be the worse sinners, this, that, they got it. I don’t know how people judge others; you see? It’s better to leave it to God to judge; I don’t judge anyone. And it works out. Thousands can get it so what is there? There’s no time for judging anymore left now. Those who want should have it.
Lady interviewer: What about somebody that listens and says, “But I believe three quarters of my life and I realize now that I’ve done the wrong thing. I took the wrong path and nothing is working out right. And I look back at my life and I see series of crashing, failures and broken relationships and all those things. How can?”
Shri Mataji: You see, for such people, I would say that they must think of the present, not of the past nor of the future. Because past doesn’t exist, it’s finished. And the future also doesn’t exist. Think of the present. Now, I am before you want to have your Realization, do have it. Why to think of the past? So, fix it, it’s not important. And more you’ll think of these things you will develop against which will give Me trouble because I’ll have to clear out one side of your centre, you see? So, not to feel guilty. Whatever has happened, has happened. Everything is forgiven, forget it! You’d better forgive yourself.
Lady interviewer: So, forgiveness is very much a part of the-
Shri Mataji: Of course, that is the greatest weapon we have got. That’s one of the mantras we have to use that you forgive yourself and you forgive others.
Lady interviewer: Then, basically, the enlightenment runs through all the thought system as you said in the beginning of our conversation. That much of what you say is Christian in the getting rid of the guilt and in the forgiveness and you’ve run through other religions as well.
Shri Mataji: Everywhere, they are just the same, you see, I have to just see how they are related to each other. Christ himself has said that, “Those who are not against Me are with Me”. Who are those? Nobody has tried to find out.
It is said that, “I’ll appear before you like tongues of flames”. What is that? These are the centres. It’s clearly said. Even Muhammad Sahib has said that, “You have a power in your bone, triangular bone called as Assas”. Even the Greeks believed in that. Not only that but even Muhammad Sahib has gone to this extend to say that, “When the Resurrection time will come, your hands will speak”. But no one wants to talk of Resurrection, everybody wants to talk of the Doomsday. Nobody wants to talk of the Comforter, they want to talk about the white horse. But when the white horse will come, no argument, no explanation, no interviews, that will be the last sorting out. So, please, this is a very important time. Everyone must now that we haven’t achieved anything so far, whatever we have been doing.
So, give us a chance. We have to be fair to ourselves and to our Creator. Because he has taken so much care to make you a human being. He has put in all his efforts. He’s anxious that you enter into his kingdom. You must give him a chance and don’t stick onto things, don’t get misidentified. What have you got? Just measure that. Now what you have to get is so simple.
[Cut in the audio]
Now, you can get it now. This is the time.
Lady interviewer: Today we are very privileged to have our guest Shri Mataji who is going to be available for you if you would like to hear her speak in greater depth on the 29, 31 of August 73 in the communal “salle communale” at Chêne-Bougeries [Geneva] it is on the “rue du Vallon” at the end of the twelve tram line. I’m just looking at her time here because I would like to take you all there in du Vallon, here it is. You know we’ve only got twelve minutes left. I don’t want – I would like for you to say what you want to say, but I would very much, I am quite interested in the idea of reincarnation that I believe.
It did not start and it not all in Indian religion. What do you believe and think about that?
Shri Mataji: Reincarnations of human beings has to be there, we can understand it, that if you are born say, today as a Jew, or you are born as a Christian, or you are born as a Muslim, you adhere to one aspect of life. But you have not seen the other aspects. I’ve seen now people, while they are coming to Me, have been to a Muslim country, Iran, now it’s all finished for that time [unsure].
And I was amazed, I saw these Muslims and they look like astounding [unsure] Brahmins of last life, you see. Once they went like a pendulum, they have moved from one extreme to another extreme and that extend to this extend. To correct yourself, God Almighty who is compassion and love has to give you a chance. And that’s how he gives. Now if you ask for something too much, you get it. And you learn a lesson that, “Oh, that was not good. I should not have asked for it”.
Lady interviewer: In the reincarnation idea, I once has an idea that to take just an obvious example, in my own unexperienced soul that if a white man harmed a black man and they had a race war that the white man would come back one day as a black man who was harm. And id the black man would die, he would come back as something else nicer. Now is that creating, in other words, that people- if you really hate and you really try and harm that you would come back in another life as the object of the thing that you hated? That could be possible?
Shri Mataji: Do you know, it is the other way round. What happens, now say as the white man has aggressed the black man as you said it, one has harmed him. Then he will become a spirit [bhoot], the black man, and when the white man will take his birth, he will harm him, he’ll possess him. He’ll get all kinds of diseases, even he can get cancer from that because all these maladies and all these diseases come from this kind of a thing which is a collective subconscious, the entry from the collective subconscious. So, this is what is the result. Today when people tell Me they had their fake gurus from India who are possessing here and who are taking out their money and all that, I said, “It’s just they are now a subtle attack”, you see?
Lady interviewer: You take no money, do you?
Shri Mataji: No. Why should I? Can you pay for my love?
[Cut in the audio]
Lady interviewer: …And that you live and you exist.
Shri Mataji: Of course, because, after all, you see, you do something to exist always [inaudible].
I have a husband who is quite well off so I have no problem. But otherwise, also, Christ was a carpenter. He didn’t take any money from anyone. Only for bas things people take money, I think. When they mesmerize others or do something just to be parasite. These are all parasitic people.
Lady interviewer: Then how does one recognize a fake prophet or a fake person who is reading to the consciousness [unsure] of Spirit and God from one who is not?
Shri Mataji: We have to understand it in a little subtler way that, you see, a person who just comes for money and asks for your money, interested in you as a woman or as a man, or as a rich man or a highly placed man, cannot be a real man. That’s one thing. Because there is no interest in these phenomena, I don’t know whose position is what, I just don’t what somebody is.
And secondly is, you must see how pure that person is: whatever he says in his private life, does he do it? Has he credibility about it?
Thirdly, the best way to judge it, what happens to his disciples? Have they got something better than we have? Are they behaving in a better way than we are? Are they more righteous, more moral, more active, more dynamic? We should find out what sort of live they are living. If they just become cabbages, or if they become absolutely recluses, if they become- if they start suffering from all kinds of preaches and things and if they become nervous people, if they get epilepsy and all that, then such a man is a devil. We should come to the right conclusion.
Lady interviewer: So that, by their fruits, you shall know them.
Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon.
Lady interviewer: By their fruits, you shall know them.
Shri Mataji: Yes, you should. Everything is said in the Bible, very clearly, if you know how to read, that’s all. You see, “by their fruits, you shall know them” What is the fruit is? Then, some people claim, somebody said, “He is a Christ”. I said, “All right, let him walk on the water”, that’s all, very simple. Somebody says, “You can fly”. All right, let him put on this Tower of Pisa, you see, which is made for such people, and let us see if they fly! You see, why paying money before seeing if they are flying or not? This is what it is, it is all the work on your ego. You see, they pamper your ego by saying that you can pay for them. They think you can buy especially Americans. I must say Americans have this speciality, they think they can buy everything, they can buy London Bridge, they can buy everything, They cannot buy their Spirit.
That’s one thing one must know, you cannot buy God, we cannot recognize God, we have to be!
This is one point. Secondly is that about a true person it is so that he looks after you. He cares for you. He loves you. The true person loves you. There’s a forgiveness, a kindness. It cannot be a person sitting on the seventh floor and talking big, you see. But people are so much enamoured by artificial things that I don’t know how to convince them that they must know what is the real what is not the real.
Lady interviewer: How would you speak to people who feel that they are bond by poverty? There are people in wealthy countries whose poverty line incomes would seem like enormous riches to people in other countries, how do you speak to people who feel they are bound by poverty?
Shri Mataji: Those who are vey poor are just the same as very rich. You see, the very poor have the same problems that the very rich have, you see. As the rich have lost all their virtues, very rich, the poor have also lost their virtues. The thing is one is on the ego trip, another is on a superego trip.
[Cut in the audio]
The central path has to be taken; central people first get the Realization, those who are not very rich and those who are not very poor. Those who are very successful are very ego-oriented, those who are very highly placed are very ego-oriented. Those who are very poor are superego, I mean, they think, “We are so miserable, we are no good, nothing”.
So, the people who have to work this evolution now in a mass scale, are the people who are in the center, who neither very rich nor very poor. But then, once these people get to it, then the poverty can be cured very easy. Mostly the people like in India, you would say that people are poor- of course, in a way, sometimes, poverty is a blessing, I would say that. You see, there is love for children, there is love for family, there is togetherness. But too much poverty comes to a country when it is more under the influence of the dead spirits, like in India. We have now Bengal; for example, Bengal is a place where they have used a lot of these dead powers and this witchcraft and this and that. And that’s why the poverty is there.
So, if you have used this witchcraft and all these things like Bihar is another place, U.P. there’re a lot of these Tantrics, these horrible witchcraft people which have brought this superego style. It comes from the collective subconscious. And the people who are collectively superconscious, the worse of that was Hitler, Hitler was-
[Cut in the audio]
Lady interviewer: In line with the Cristian teaching of thinking first are on me, on my Spirit or other things, shall be added on to you then?
Shri Mataji: Are they [inaudible]? You get even your material benefit. All the Sahaja Yogis who have come to Sahaja Yoga have been materially benefiting. One and all, it’s herd to find a Sahaja Yogi who’s no materially benefiting. Family wise, mentally, emotionally, financially, in every way, everybody has been benefiting. And if you see them in a group, you’ll be amazed the kind of a glow they have on their face. All their problems are solved as far as the [inaudible] is concerned, the health is concerned, all problems solved!
Lady interviewer: By opening to their Spirit.
Shri Mataji: Yes, because the blessing is the God; we call it as Ritambhara Pragnya, is the quality of God by which the Mother Earth creates the seasons. The seasons start expressing themselves in your life. You get so fulfilled.
Lady interviewer: Why do you feel that there is such a systematism rampant about any form of religion or talk of state of consciousness and that it comes from feminism, or raising state of consciousness; there, that’s all right. But if you talk about this in religion, it sets up an enormous cry of alarm. What do you feel that is?
[END of AUDIO]