Public program, ‘chitta’ (Hindi-English), Bordi (India) 24 March 1979

You all have come in Sahaja Yoga. Some are there since a long time, some are new. Slowly the number of Sahaja Yogis is going to increase. There is no doubt. The truth always establishes itself slowly. Truth takes time to get established [within ourselves]. Some people came in Sahaja Yoga and took 8 to 9 months to get their realization.

To achieve the truth, we should have depth inside us and the most important thing is we have to be pure inside. If we have been to many gurus, our chitta [attention] becomes impure.

Secondly, when we are living in today’s society, due to many distractions outside, our chitta [attention] is always directed outwards [towards the physical world]. We get impressed by all these distractions and also we have been brainwashed by society that these things are important for us. Hence, we put our attention to the things which are not at all important and neglect those which are necessary.

Therefore, we go on collecting the things which are useless for us which we call ‘junk’ in English. So, our mind becomes heavy with all the ‘junk’ it collects inside. Our minds can’t carry this burden. It gets tiring.

When people get together in the society, they can’t talk to each other for a long time because their mind is so heavy with the thoughts that they are tired. Even while talking to each other, they need to do something else like reading a book or watching a movie. They can’t sit together even for 10 minutes without those distractions.

The more you keep your mind pure, the happier you will be. So, while purifying our Chitta [attention], we should remember that this Chitta is going to take us to God. Once we know God, the rest of the things become easy to understand. Because when you get to the core of something, you understand the depth and extent of the thing very easily and in a subtler way. Hence, you should always keep your attention on your Chitta, “Where is my Chitta going?”

The more your Chitta gets surrendered, the purer it becomes. It’s like as many times you take bath in the river Ganges [Holy River in India]; you become purer every time.

Then the biggest question arises, “Mother, how to surrender ourselves?”

Now you know one way of surrendering yourselves which you have been practicing for years. As you have seen, a lady surrenders herself to Maa Gayatri or Shri Ram. We have this tradition in our country that in almost every family in India, we have any one of the deities which is the deity for our whole family to whom we worship from generations to generations and we are completely surrendered to that deity. But we don’t gain anything from this kind of surrender. We attain a depth in this surrender for sure but we don’t achieve anything in that depth.

It’s like we have a big ghada [earthen pot used in India to carry and store water] which is big and deep but its mouth [opening to pour water inside] is not directed towards the river Ganges. It is getting deeper but because its mouth is directed away from the river, the river water can’t flow inside the pot. Now if we direct the mouth of the pot towards the river, immediately the pot will be filled with the river water.

So, this is the biggest advantage for the people in our country. If someone is surrendered to Shri Ram or any other Incarnations of God, he just has to ask, “Mother, are you that Incarnation?” and vibrations start flowing through him instantly. See, how easy is Sahaja Yoga! This has two benefits. Firstly, whatever hard work you have been doing to reach God until now is not wasted and secondly, you could identify me very easily.

Now, you know all the incarnations that came on this earth before me. How people have tortured them and troubled them. But in this Incarnation, it was considered as to how to make people identify that this is the Incarnation of God. Because human beings are so egoistic, they are not ready to accept anyone as the incarnation and when the incarnation leaves this earth, people come to know the truth about the incarnation. Then, they feel guilty, they cry.

There was one gentleman. His name was T. Maniklal. I went for his treatment. He used to be always ill. He said, “Mother, I saw this weird dream in which I was sleeping in a room and my family was also there in the same room with me, and you were in another room where people were worshipping you, doing you Puja, but I couldn’t go there. I was trying to get up but I couldn’t. My family was just looking at me. I was trying to tell them, “Go and worship Shri Mataji”, but I was unable to do anything.

Actually, he was dreaming about his state after his death. Now he is no more. But how could I tell him that he was about to die and that time he was going to feel like that? He was dreaming about his condition after death. At that time, he was dying. He told me about his dream 3-4 times and asked me to explain the meaning of his dream. He was getting this dream again and again. He said, “I always get this dream and my family is sitting there with me, crying for me but not going towards you [Shri Mataji]. I try again and again to tell them to go to Shri Mataji and surrender, but I can’t.” He asked many times about this dream in front of his family. But even now if I try to explain it to his family, they will not understand.

So, in this country [India], this has become a very useful tool because we are already surrendered to any one of the deities. Even if those “Hare Rama, Hare Krishna” people turn the mouths of their pots towards me [turn to me] and ask, “Mother, are you the Hare Rama, Hare Krishna to whom we have been worshipping all this time?”, then instantly their Vishuddhi Chakra will get cleared and their pots will be filled with the river water [vibrations will start flowing through them]. You all have already experienced these things. I am not telling you anything new.

Whenever you give realization to someone, tell him to ask me first, “Mother, are you that same power to whom I have been worshiping all my life?”

This works better in our country [India] than in any other country. Because, people over there, do not worship anyone. Most of them don’t listen to anyone other than themselves. It’s useless to talk about these things there. Because people are so much separated from each other that sometimes one doesn’t know whether his father is alive or not. I have seen many such people there. But it’s very easy in our country. If you ask them about the deity they worship and tell them to ask whether the mother is that deity or not. Also, you have to keep in mind that I am talking about any true Guru or true incarnation and not any weird person. So, if they ask this question 3 times, they should get their vibrations.

Now, there was one lady who said, “Mother, I worship Renuka Devi.” So, you should not consider Renuka Devi as an Incarnation specifically. People do many such things but normally if you ask about the very well-known Incarnations, this will happen immediately. Just put your hand on the liver while doing this step. So, when their attention [chitta] knows that this is the same deity, slowly they understand.

There is nothing to fear or feel awkward about this. Anyways, you now know who am I. In the same way, when you asked me about who was I, I answered you [I gave you the truth]. I am not scared to tell you that. I have always told you with full confidence, “Yes, this is the truth.”

But People are so egoistic that as soon as they come to know this, they run after the person to hit him. For them, this is the biggest fear that someone has come into this world as God’s Incarnation because then, they feel that everything has been taken away from their hands. They feel that someone has snatched the whole world from them and they are left with nothing. They are finished now. Because they were thinking that they are the incarnations [wise people] themselves. This is the difficulty. So, as soon as they hear this kind of thing, they start doubting. But they are ready to worship deities who are dead thousands of years back. That’s ok for them. They will worship them.

In Kashmir, the Gayatri mantra is very popular. All the brahmins chant the Gayatri mantra and they are suffering from all the problems in the world. Some of them say that, “We can’t leave this Gayatri” and some of them say, “Mother, we didn’t get any benefit from Gayatri, we worshipped it so much.” They blame Gayatri that they did so much but still have so many problems, diseases, etc. That time, if you tell them to ask Mother if She is Gayatri Devi, they will get realization within 5 minutes and all their machinery starts working. It’s like, you have connected some plug wrongly so the machine, is not working. But when you correct it and put the plug perfectly, the machine starts working perfectly. Like that you have to make people understand.

It is not an easy task to get incarnated on this earth. It’s very difficult and to be born amid fools is even more difficult. Because if you try to tell them some wise things, they also have a way such that they will name you with some brand [title]. Maybe they will spread rumours about you that you are mad. But if you praise them saying they are very brilliant people and that even if they eat cow dung, that’s alright, then you will become a very good person in their view.

But if you try to explain to them that whatever they are doing is wrong, they will not listen. Every true Guru does that. If it’s a false guru, he won’t do it because he just wants your money. He will say, “Do whatever you want, just pay me my money.” So, they [false gurus] don’t have this problem. The problem starts when a true Guru comes and tries to explain to people what is wrong and what is right. Only a wise man can tell this. But then, people call him names, they spread rumours about him that he is mad or something.

People also tease their fathers, mothers, and teachers. They make fun of them. Because they don’t understand what they are trying to tell, they just make fun of their parents and teachers. This is the modern way. In older days, people used to sit at Guru’s feet for hours, in the hope that Guru will guide them about their faults. Even now, the true Gurus make their disciples understand their own mistakes but their ways are difficult. I told you about one Guru who broke someone’s legs and he was brought back to me. This way the Gurus gave such punishment just to clear his Agnya Chakra. But then Guru himself is just a human being. Whenever true incarnations came on this earth, people troubled them.

During Shri Rama’s incarnation, Kaikeyi listened to her maid [servant]. A wise woman like Kaikeyi listened to a servant and sent Shri Rama and Sitaji to the forest, etc. Anyways, it was a planned work and it’s finished.

During Krishna’s time, he couldn’t tell Geeta to anyone except Arjuna alone. It’s not like he could collect 50 people and sit together and tell them. If Krishna would have told in front of many people, “सर्वधर्माणाम परित्यज्य, मामेकं शरणं रज” [Sanskrit: “Renounce all the beliefs, and surrender to me”], then people would have named him with a funny title and made fun of him. It’s after his death that people are reading Geeta.

Like Christ has said, “I am the light, I am the path”. But people named him with a brand [title] like he is egoistic or something.

So, the job of an incarnation is very difficult. There is nothing more difficult than that. Firstly, you are a God who has come on this earth. Then living with human beings is even more difficult. Because you don’t have habits that normal human beings have and it’s even too much difficult to understand human beings.

Suppose you are a human being, how will you understand a dog? Tell me, is that easy? It’s very difficult. Then how will you understand an insect, like what are his habits, how does he manage to live in dirt, how much dirt he creates?

So, getting incarnated on this earth is not an easy task and if someone wants to get incarnated, he has to go through lots of hardships. But telling a lie, “I am an incarnation” is very easy. There is nothing easier than that. For example, if someone wants to establish a true business; he knows how difficult it is. But if someone wants to earn illegal money in the name of business; he will fool the government, take the money and show fake investments, grab money from here and there and run away to America.

So, to fool people is very easy. If you fake yourself as a God, it’s easy. Someone says, “I am God. So, I want silver plates to eat, a golden bucket to have a bath, a palace to live in, a Mercedes to travel”, you have to supply everything because he is God.

But for someone who is the real God, He will think, “I should become like these human beings. I should become a common man and forget those days when I used to live in a palace and was surrounded by all the luxuries when I was happy both inside and outside. I should forget all that and work hard, travel in villages, live in dust, save people, take their burden onto myself, give realization to them.”

You can see how difficult it was for Shri Krishna. He came from Vrindavan to Mathura, stayed there as a common cowherd, took all the troubles onto himself. Demons used to come again and again to kill him. How he used his powers of destruction, how he fought with the Kaliya snake. You know about all his life. You know about Shri Ram’s life, you know about Christ’s life, you know about Mohammad Sahib’s life, you know about Zoroaster’s life. How many problems they had to face! How people tortured them and troubled them!

So, what’s the difference between the two [true God and fake God]? The biggest difference is that the fake person lives in luxury, fools everyone, and acquires money. No one dares say anything against him. But the true God is always tortured by others. He works hard throughout his life, wears off like sandalwood, and fills the environment with its fragrance.

The fake one says, “I will do everything for you, you will have no problem” and when someone complaints, he says, “Those are your previous deeds that are backfiring” and people take it happily that, “Their past deeds are bad so what can their guru do about it?” They think, “Maybe I paid him less. If I have some more faith, maybe I will get my wish.” So, in the form of faith, something more [money] is given to him and it goes on, the lies will go on until that person is completely fooled and destroyed by the guru.

But the truth, the truth is very deep. It can’t be destroyed by money. Money is nothing in front of the truth. The truth connects to your heart, it can be felt. You have to put your efforts and that’s what human beings don’t want to do.

It’s easy to buy something with money. As you buy anything with money, you buy a guru. There is nothing difficult in that. If you have money, you can buy whatever you want. So, you have bought your guru. It’s easy. But here, people say, “Oh, this Guru is a trouble, he tells us to leave drinking, leave cigarette, leave tobacco, follow rules, you can’t leave your wife and run away.”

Once, in Delhi, a gentleman came to me and said, “I am not happy with my wife and I love another woman”, I said, “Don’t tell such things to me please.” Immediately, I became an old-fashioned woman in his view and he named me with some title and went on to fulfil his desire.

So, it’s a difficult task. But my question is, “Alright, you don’t want to listen to him [true Guru], you don’t agree with him, not happy with his teachings. But my dear, have you ever thought about what good have you done to others in your whole life? It’s ok that you have a problem following whatever he is asking you to do but what good have you done for others till now? How much have you helped others? Have you ever carried the burdens of other people on your shoulders?”

If you want to know whether someone is a true Guru or a false one, there is only one way, that is a true Guru cares for you and a false guru cares for your money. You have to see that for yourself.

Now, there is a big question in front of all the Sahaja Yogis that is, whether we should tell other people that, “Mother is the Adishakti.” But this is not false. You like it or not, this is the truth. So, we should in turn ask them, “We have already seen the rising Kundalini with our eyes. We have seen it pulsating, have you seen this anywhere else? Even when we raise our Kundalini, we don’t get as many vibrations as we get at Shri Mataji’s lotus feet. Has anyone seen a pulsating Kundalini? We have seen it with our eyes, numerous times. Kundalini starts rising when we surrender at Mother’s lotus feet.” It’s written in Devi Mahatmya, in Lalita Sahastranaam [Sahasranama], that Kundalini rises at Mother’s Lotus feet. And if thousands of Kundalinis are rising, there is surely something. So you tell them, “How can’t we believe our own eyes?”

I will tell you a joke. One gentleman went somewhere. He saw sun and started thinking about whether it’s a sun or a moon. A fight started between two men whether it is the sun or the moon. A third person was passing by. They asked him whether it’s a sun or a moon. He said, “See, I am a foreigner, I don’t know.” (Laughter.)

Same way, for the people who don’t understand, just tell them, “We have seen and felt the rising Kundalini. How can we forget it?” Also, you can tell them to ask in front of the photograph, “Mother, are you Adishakti?” I have arranged for you to get the answer at the photograph.

You know that God has created every small thing very specially. He has arranged every tiny detail miraculously.

So, you have to tell them, “We have seen it with our eyes. If you want proof, come and ask at the photograph.” You ask them straightaway. If the person is very bad then leave it. But if it’s a common man with a pure heart and if he is a seeker, then he gets it instantly.

It’s very easy to give realization in Sahaja Yoga. But to do that it is necessary for you to achieve stability, to establish that trust within yourself. Until you are not confident about it, others will of course doubt you. Of course, when someone talks with authority, there is always a possibility that people will name you with a title. They use the words like, “That lady has bewitched you” or “You are mesmerized by her”, etc. But tell them, “How can we forget that we have seen Kundalini rising, vibrations flowing, people are getting realization? How can we forget?”

But unless you become completely confident about yourself, people are not going to get impressed by you. There are many people here especially in Mumbai who know this thing very deeply. I always say, “There are fewer people here but each one is better than the other.” Comparatively, there are more people in Delhi but very few are confident about it. Of course, I also have worked hard on you but by God’s grace, we didn’t get lots of shallow people here. Otherwise, it would have been difficult.

You should also be wise enough to recognize whether the person who is in front of you is worthy. Don’t waste your time on worthless people.

For example, this is your brother, you go on trying for him. When you know that your brother is a drinker, a gambler, he misbehaves with his wife and is a worthless person, but even then, you work hard on him because he is your brother, then you are a fool.

You should always first try for the people who are similar to you. Who are simple, normal. Try them first. But many people try to first bring their relations like their brother, their father, their wife, etc., and it becomes very difficult to correct them. Though, it is true that unless your family is into it, it is a bit difficult to get established in Sahaja Yoga. If the whole family is in Sahaja Yoga, then it becomes easy.

But the biggest question in front of today’s Sahaja Yogis is, “Have you established yourself?” You can’t do anything without establishing yourself. First of all, you establish yourself in Sahaja Yoga. Secondly, you have to see how many other people you can bring in. You light your lamp first properly. Then you think about how many other lamps you can light. You think about which person will be suitable for this. You have to work wisely.

If you go and directly start chanting, “Jai Mataji”, then you will lose it. You have to behave wisely. The right person will automatically reach you. I make them reach out to you. For example, if someone is ill, someone left his wife, etc., these people directly come to you.

But anyways, whenever something like that happens and that person comes to you, that’s good. But even when you want to go and talk to that person, the first thing that impresses him is your character, your behaviour, etc. But if someone is not capable, he will misinterpret everything about you. If you have put kumkum, he will have an objection, if you haven’t, he will have an objection. I am not talking about such people. They are worthless. They are not going to get realization. It’s very difficult. So, there is no need to think about them but a normal person who you think can come in Sahaja Yoga, you have to behave very wisely with him.

First important thing is, how will he get impressed by you? If he has some level, he will understand just by seeing you that you have something different in you. If he hasn’t attained that level, he won’t be able to recognize you. He will look at your clothes, your shoes, etc.

There was a gentleman from Nagpur, all of his family is following “Radha swamy” except him. He used to fight them all saying, “There is no change in you people, why are you following this guru?” But when he met (unclear: Mehtani), he understood that there is something different in this man. He talks with confidence so definitely he has achieved something. Then he told his family, “Now, I have got the real Guru because now I have achieved it.”

If you have achieved it, then by your behaviour, your way of communication, your confidence, others should feel that you have got it. If they feel that you have achieved that ‘state’, they will ask you, “How have you got it? How do you remain always calm? How have you become so sweet?” Until that transformation happens within you, unless that sweetness and beauty shine within you, you can’t impress others. Of course, I am not talking about people who are superficial but simple, common people will recognize that there is something spiritual about this person. So, first of all, you have to establish yourself then you have to search for such people. The first identity is they should get impressed by your behaviour.

Many real Gurus used to hit people who came to them and then also if someone doesn’t run away from them, then they used to accept him as a disciple. But the situation is not the same now. Now you have to catch people like Christ said, “Come, I will teach you how to catch human beings and you stop catching fishes”.

Same way all of you should learn how to catch people and save them through this Bhavasagar. This is the biggest question in front of us. The biggest question in front of the Sahaja Yogis is how to save people and it has to happen, no matter what. For that, whatever you have to do, whatever problems you need to face, you have to do it. you have to save people and bring them to Sahaja Yoga. This is the only thing you have to do. And not that, “My brother is not getting any job, my work is pending”, etc. These are not the things for you to worry about.

The biggest work you do today is you are on the seashore and see the people who are drowning and try to save them. If we can’t do this then our realization is wasted. Everything is in vain.

Today, at this place in Bordi, you all take an oath in your mind that, “This is our aim that each person will save at least 1000 more people.” You will have to work hard, to face problems, suffer but you have to do it calmly, wisely and try to save people.

So, getting angry, shouting at others, getting upset, condemning yourself or others or thinking that we have done so much or we can’t do anything or trying to dominate others, or getting scared of others. all these things have to be stopped. And with calm, stable mind and with confidence, you have to do this work. Think about how to save more and more people.

Once, we went to Rahuri and people were requested not to come to my feet for worshipping because there was swelling on my legs, but people got hurt. Then I said, “Alright, you can come to worship, let the swelling be. I will do something about it.” I couldn’t upset them. It was their love. But if they could understand that Mother is suffering, it would have been better. But that’s alright. Somehow, I want them to get it [realization], understand it. So, you too have to do this work considering yourself as an elder person to them or at a higher level of understanding than others.

This is the thing you have to understand. You have to be wise. So, may you all establish this maturity within yourself and you all get enlightened with the light of God and enlighten others. This is my blessing to you all.

(Shri Mataji is giving some instructions to Sahaja Yogis.)

It [Kundalini] carries the light with it. But if your attention is at the centre of the Agnya Chakra, you don’t see the light. But if it is not passing through that [centre], then because your attention is outside, you see the light because it is carrying the light also with it. But Kundalini is not passing through it. It’s stuck up. So, because of that light, your eyes go like that. People even have seen the complete flow of light moving up like that but they don’t feel the realization. They see it coming up to the Agnya but the whole thing drops back.

They saw how Adi Kundalini was helping their Kundalini but since your attention is outside, the flickering of the light starts. Then I tell you to fix up your eyes on my photograph. When you see towards my face, what happens, the Chaitanya pushes you through your eyes into the centre so that you see me as I am. But the eyes are controlled by the Chaitanya and the attention is pushed inside that aperture in the Agnya Chakra. So, I always say that if your eyes are fluttering, please pay attention to me so that the Chaitanya works out through your eyes and fixes your attention to pass it through that [Agnya Chakra]. Because the light starts spreading on all the sides, you see that light and your eyes go like that, you can’t close your eyes. It’s the reason for that.

One of the reasons for Nirvichara is that. But also, Nirvichara is a way to express the blessings of your Mother. When She wants to bless you, you see. You wrote the letter, She was happy. Just to bless you, you became Nirvichar. You see, it’s the blessing. That’s how you, that’s the Grace, you see, that comes to you from your Mother that you become Nirvichar. That’s one has to remember.

If you do the things that I tell you, I bless you very much because they are for your good, for your Kalyana [well-being], for your Mangal [auspicious]. And that’s why you are blessed and that blessing you feel as Nirvichara. Because I am Nirvichara myself.

(Shri Mataji is having some discussion with Sahaja Yogis)

[ENGLISH PART]

…But if your attention is passing through the centre of the Agnya chakra you don’t see any light. But if it is not passing through that, then what happens [is], because your attention is outside, you see the light. Because it is enlightening also, you see. And you just see the light but the Kundalini is not passing through,  just it’s stuck up there. And that’s why, because of that light, your eyes go on like that, you see.

People have seen even a complete flow of light moving up like that. But they have not felt the Realization. They saw it coming up to the Agnya and then the whole thing dropped back. They saw it! They saw the Kundalini how it was helping, [how] the Adi Kundalini was helping your Kundalini – they saw it.

Even this light rising is because of that. Because your attention is still outside, you see. So the flickering of the eyes starts. Then I tell you to fix up your eyes onto my finger. When you fix it up onto my finger and my face, what happens [is] the chaitanya pushes you, through your eyes, into the centre, so that you see me as I am. But the eyes are controlled by the chaitanya and the attention that is inside is pushed inside that, what you call the apparition, in the Agnya chakra.

So I always say that if you are flickering your eyes please pay attention to me so that the chaitanya works out through your eyes and fixes your attention to pass through. Because the light starts spreading on all the sides and you see that light and the eyes go on like that; you cannot close your eyes. That is the reason for that.

Then the second thing you said [is] that you are facing: your Sahasrara was on the thing. Yes, one of the reasons for nirvichara is that. But also nirvichara is a way to express the blessings of your Mother. When She wants to bless you. See, you wrote the letter [so] She was happy. Just to bless you, you became nirvichar. You see, it’s the blessing. That’s how you…that’s the grace that comes to you from your Mother, that you become nirvichar – that one has to recognise. If you do the things that I tell you, I feel I bless you very much, because they are for your good, for your kalyana (benevolence), for your mangal (auspiciousness) and that’s why you are blessed and that blessing you feel as nirvichara. Because I am Nirvichara myself.

Yes. Come along.

Douglas Fry: I’m Douglas Fry, one of the early Sahaja yogis from London. And what I would like to say is, it’s rather amazing the way that the forces of good and the forces of bad have nevertheless, pushed us towards Mataji. Now the person that introduced us to Mataji, as you have heard from Gavin, was a yoga ‘playboy’.

Shri Mataji:  And who was that?

Douglas Fry: A yoga playboy. A guru or something.

Shri Mataji: Yes, he was, he was no doubt, and is still!

Douglas Fry: The reason he came to England…

Shri Mataji: …was to make some money out of yoga!

Douglas Fry: The reason he came to England was because he’d seen this particular fake guru with long hair that looked like a pop star (laughter). He told me, and I think he might have told some of the youngest of us, that this particular guru had said to him, “You should go to England.” So, obviously he came to England and started yoga classes. Now where the yoga classes started was the last place that you could teach yoga because it was very, very cold and we started in winter, and there was no heating on. But for some reason, the yoga classes still went on. Now, eventually, he met Mataji and tried his experiment on us. And we all felt coolness in the hands, we all got Realization.

Now, another thing that this yoga playboy had tried was Transcendental Meditation, I found out. Now, after us having got Realization, he tried to teach us meditation and the technique that he was trying to do was a technique used by TM. The TM people, they give you a mantra, they might make the mantra up themselves. Or sometimes they give you names that sounds a bit like Sanskrit. In fact, I heard one fellow who had a mantra that sounded like “key ring”. If you pronounce it strangely it can sort of sound a bit like Indian but that’s neither here nor there.

So this fellow was trying to use TM techniques to make us go into meditation. And he told us that we should concentrate on a word, a word that we think is nice. Now the particular word I used was ‘divine’.

Now we sat down there for about ten or fifteen minutes to meditate and I remember I felt an explosion that finished in my head. Now I did not know the time that it was so I said, “I felt that explosion in my head, what was it?” So he said, “Oh, I don’t think that was anything, you forget about it!”

(Laughter)

Now, once again, I think perhaps, just for a split of a second, I had achieved thoughtless awareness and my Kundalini obviously had risen. Then, at a later date, once I was asleep, I actually saw my Kundalini rise. So my head was full of an intense white flame then it went down again and then it came up again. And then I heard a “ting” from the top of my head.

(Laughter)

Shri Mataji:  That’s not Kundalini, you see, this is the thing [to understand].

Douglas Fry: This I assume was the breaking of the brahmarandhra.

Shri Mataji:  No, no.

Douglas Fry: This wasn’t.

Shri Mataji: It is not. It happens with so many people, you see, that is al the ida and pingala ??.

Douglas Fry: This is?

Shri Mataji:  This is ida pingala

Douglas Fry: Oh, I see, pardon me.

Shri Mataji:  The sympathetic. That works out and it looks like Kundalini. But you don’t get any vibrations in the hand or head. You know, some people get a big hole here, down below. Especially this Muktananda he does like that. And they get a feeling like that you know. You should never feel the Kundalini rising like an explosion in a block like that.

Douglas Fry: Oh, I see

Shri Mataji:  Later on, after Realization, you may feel the slow movement. But normally in Realization you do not.

Douglas Fry: So, anyway, that’s all I want to say. Thank you very much. 

Shri Mataji:  What about Sahaj Yog?

Douglas Fry: Well, anyway, after all this experience – initially of course I was in quite a mess, I used to take drugs and drink as many of the Western people seem to do these days. And gradually I found, after being exposed to Mataji’s love and Mataji’s influence, I found that gradually my interest in drugs, my interest in drinking and smoking, it all dropped out and I gradually became more and more stable. And now, I found that life for me is very settled and…

Shri Mataji:  …you can give Realization.

Douglas Fry: I find that I can give Realization to people and..

Shri Mataji:  I can cure also

Douglas Fry: And yes, also I have to say I can cure people and the first time I gave Realization to somebody, I was quite amazed and,  just to realize I could do such a thing. But now, to give Realization it’s still, you know, it still makes me feel very nice and clean inside, it’s just wonderful.

(Applause)

Shri Mataji: This kind of experience also many people get, like Shri Krishna also had like that and so many people get a feeling like that, that something goes up, suddenly shoots off, and you feel exploded and opened out and all that. But that is not the Kundalini. It is the sympathetic nervous system which is very much in strain. You see her strain. 

And in that expression of that strain, what happens is that the whole thing, the energy of the complete sympathetic, whatever they have in the parasympathetic is sucked in, into the sympathetic. Because the sympathetic is too much activated. Then what happens, the parasympathetic system has your stored up energy whatever it is. So it just sucks in all that and when it is sucked in, suddenly, the wave from the pelvic plexus, down below starts. Because, all the energies are released to the sympathetic.

Because the sympathetic is so exhausted that whatever is the energy left in the chakras is released. Once it is released, all that released energy makes you feel that the energy is rising within you because it is rising through ida and pingala. Now this is the energy which is just sucked into ida and pingala. It rises up. And you can feel it going up and coming down and all that. But the after effects of this one is this, that such a person – of course in these experiences people feel sometimes a horrible thing also, that they feel that there’s a heat liberation, sometimes they feel some sort of a scorpion bites going on or some snakes coming up and all kind of things can happen in this. It can be very horrifying also, this one, and could be very simple also.

But when this happens, the after effect is like that, that you become arbitrary.

All this drugs system started after that, because once you are released from that self-control in between, you can take to anything like this, because you are free now to do whatever you please. And that’s how you can take to drugs and things. 

And this is what all these gurus are doing, is to take out this stored energy which is controlling you, suck them out onto the sympathetic. There are so many ways by which they can do it: they can starve you, they can make you work very hard, they can make you tired, they can make you say some mantras, things. I mean they make your sympathetic work so hard that ultimately a stage is reached where your chakras release all the energy that is stored in them and just get out of it. So all this energy they will suck in and a person feels: “Oh, suddenly something has happened!”

But in these circumstances, you may have a big hollow in the head like that, as if, like a mad person has, here, a big hollow. And the whole thing is sucked in and you get a hollow there like that. So many people get this thing, that is a very different thing. But because all the energy that was inside is sucked in. So it has become like a big hollow inside, you see. Like a mad person has too, the same thing.

So this is the way people confuse between Kundalini awakening and the exhaustion of the sympathetic. Normally when the Kundalini is awakened through Sahaj Yoga, you do not feel anything. It just goes up and works out.

But sometimes, after Realization, if there is an obstruction due to certain combinations, it may be the obstruction may go out like that. But there’s a tremendous difference between the two.

That first, you release in the hands, of the vibrations, start with that. But with the first one you do not get [vibrations]. On the contrary, you get heated up and you start avoiding yourself, escaping from yourself. And this starts. And that’s how you get into these drugs.

This is very much played by the gurus. You see, that’s what they do to you. They exhaust you completely so that you cannot withstand reality and the present moment. And so you try to get into something. And once you try to escape it, the whole release of the stores and parasympathetic takes place and the Deities are broken and you are broken, you become arbitrary. It’s a cancerous sort of a thing. So that’s not Kundalini awakening but we would say, it is more a sympathetic system which comes into play and the movement of peristaltic, what you call that ‘pumping’. Peristaltic movements of the pumping up of the energy starts. They start putting it into the thing. And the whole thing is sucked in because of the exhaustion.

So one should not confuse between the two. Because after Realization you cannot take to drugs and things easily. It’s very difficult. You have to really force yourself to take to drugs.

Gregoire: Mother, you just answered now something that I never questioned because after I met I did not want to question it. I had, two years before meeting you, I had an extremely powerful experience of the same kind…

(End of audio)