Media interview. Brisbane Airport (Australia), 5 April 1991.
Interviewer: …condition like, for instance Gorbachev…
Shri Mataji: He is a realized soul. He’s born a realized soul. It’s a, it’s a state of mind which is spiritual and where your spirit is in your attention. So in that light, you see wisdom. You are compassionate and you’re very sensible and dynamic and you do not get ruffled easily. Apart from that, it gives you a great concern for the masses and you don’t mind rectifying anything that is wrong and also you feel very, I should say, powerful – the power of love.
Interviewer: Right. Do You think Gorbachev… has all these qualities?
Shri Mataji: I think he has many. I’m going to meet him this time when I go there. I mean, I’ve been missing him and he’s been missing Me – it’s like that but he has seen the point quite alright, that this kind of an extreme regimentation of communism doesn’t help. Also he sees the point what’s wrong with democracy, so he doesn’t want to go to that extent of democratic life like America is, where it’s complete abandonment and they have got so many problems because of this kind of freedom which is just licence. So he’s a balanced person and he’s very righteous in his own character – extremely righteous man. Like a, you see, I should say that, Socrates has described that, “We should have benevolent kings,” you see. So he believes in benevolence and the way how he has uh… crossed all these hurdles one by one, is very surprising.
Interviewer: Hmm, and he’s probably changed the world more than any other person.
Shri Mataji: Yes, he’s so courageous.
Interviewer: In his generation
Shri Mataji: He’s very courageous and whenever I go to Russia – I mean, you’ll be amazed to know that there are 16,000, 14,000 people – we always take a stadium and I always talk about him. Nobody objected to what I said about him. He has that leadership in him but is for the world to understand how we have to change ourselves and come to some middle point – not to go to extremes of anything. He also is very spiritual – very spiritual man and he arranged lots of yoga seminars there, he called lots of people from outside, everything but it so happened that when I was there, he was not there.
Interviewer: Well, You’ll see him next time.
Shri Mataji: Yeah, of course.
Interviewer: What do You… how do You judge somebody’s spiritual, whether they’re very spiritual or not? Is it a feeling You get or…?
Shri Mataji: No, you see, everybody has Divinity within themselves. Everybody is spiritual but only thing is that when you get connected to that All-Pervading power then you start emitting cool vibrations from your being which can be felt on your Central Nervous system
Shri Mataji: You can feel on your…
Shri Mataji: fingertips, but for Me I can just feel it as it is.
Interviewer: Can You feel it from other people?
Shri Mataji: Ah yes, it’s just like that. You see, as soon as I saw Gorbachev on the television, I said, “We’ve done it now.” So you have to have uh… that kind of sensitivity, just to judge it but otherwise all of them can judge it. If they ask just a question, “Is Gorbachev a realized soul?” it works.
Shri Mataji: Yeah. You can ask the question and they get the cool breeze in their hands.
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Shri Mataji: Because you get the Absolute answers because you… Spirit is the Absolute – it gives you absolutely. So all of them will feel the same way about it also and I think, now in the world there is an awakening going on that we should take to Spiritual life – everywhere. But I was surprised that in Russia, where they never talked of God, never talked of religion, how people are so clean! Because they have no conditionings. You see, we have conditionings of this religion and this and that and they have deviated from right paths – they have deviated. They are not on the right paths, you see. Whatever was preached by their Incarnations or say, prophets or anyone – they didn’t carry on that.
Interviewer: Is it because they had some sort of religious innocence because they haven’t had… religion wasn’t legal? So therefore they’re more…
Shri Mataji: You see, it is because it went into the hands of people who were really not authorised. Christ has said that, “You are to be born again,” that means something has to happen to you. But they did not try that. You see, they just started, “Alright, we’ll organize now.” Without having that connection, how can you do it?
Interviewer: Right. Have You… have You met the Queen?
Shri Mataji: Yeah, of course I’ve met her.
Interviewer: Yeah. How did You feel her spiritual…?
Shri Mataji: She’s a very sweet person, extremely sweet, very humble, very sweet, nice person and she has tendencies towards spirituality, no doubt and I’m going to meet now Prince of Wales when I’m going to England. He wants to meet Me for some purpose. Then I’ll see if she comes to Sahaja Yoga. She’s a very open-minded lady, extremely open-minded, and she has respect. A very sweet person she is.
Interviewer: Right. Other members of the Royal family are there any that stand out as being very spiritual people?
Shri Mataji: Even the… this gentleman from New Zealand – [Murray?] – he was quite spiritual but I don’t know. He fell into some sort of a social problem… or conscience problems… something – he is also another one.
Interviewer: Is he? Right
Shri Mataji: Yes. Even our Rajiv Gandhi is but he also fell a trap into wrong advice, perhaps – he’s also a realized soul. Even the uh… head of the new party that’s coming up, he’s also a realized soul. So many are coming up like that, I don’t know how.
Interviewer: Hmm. And have You met our Bob Hawke?
Shri Mataji: I haven’t met him as yet.
Interviewer: Yeah. Have You met any of the Australian politicians?
Shri Mataji: Not at that level.
Shri Mataji: All those who work in My husband’s office, mostly shipping people [UNCLEAR] shipping, but they’re changing so fast – even by the time I come here, they’ve changed. [LAUGHTER]
Interviewer: And they will be by the time You come next time too!
Shri Mataji: You can’t just locate them. I want to meet but they have changed.
Interviewer: I can believe that. And what about American Presidents? Do any stand out in Your …
Shri Mataji: Abraham Lincoln, of course. He was great, no doubt, very great. Lenin was also, you’ll be surprised, was a realized soul but they dragged him into party and they also… What he said was, “We should achieve at stateless state,” that’s absolutely what we are doing – stateless state. People should be just angelic – doesn’t become like that, you have to be that state. Even I feel the most of the laws are for angels, not for ordinary persons.
Interviewer: Right. You worked, when you were young with Gandhi
Shri Mataji: Yes, I did
Interviewer: What was he like?
Shri Mataji: A wonderful person. He was so concerned about people, concerned about our country, for its Independence – a very Spiritual personality and he knew Me what I was and he consulted Me at a very young age about his bhajans, you see, the hymns, how to write, in what series he should write. But very disciplined fellow, very extremely disciplined and he wanted everybody to be very disciplined and he said, “We have to win the freedom and for that we have to be disciplined.” And he said, “First thing first. First we must have our freedom. Without freedom, what is Spirituality of a slave?” So, if he was living, he would have definitely worked with us but [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: And this mister…
Interviewer: Do you have questions? ‘Cos I already…
Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR Till I am doing with her]
Interviewer: I have to think of some more anyway…
Male yogi (Jason): Martin Luther King… he also
Shri Mataji: Yeah, He was a realized soul.
Interviewer: Was he?
Shri Mataji: Yeah, he was definitely a realized soul. Tremendous person!
Jason: The thing with, with realized souls in politics, Shri Mataji, You’ve often said is the vision; they have the vision that unrealized people don’t. Lenin had the vision of collectivity, Martin Luther King had the vision of the sameness of all humanity, irrespective of races. But it’s this vision that we get through realization, isn’t it?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, I mean, they have not only vision but they have the Absolute Truth with them and they are so wedded to it – innately they get wedded to the Truth. [Said?] they will not do all these nonsensical things that politicians are doing because they’re not insecure, they’re not counting their merits, and what position they occupy so they’re not bothered about this maintaining the position – they’ll be there, in any case, whatever one may try. And they’re… apart from the collective vision, you see, they can penetrate into problems much better than anybody else can because they see the problems from a detached mind; they’re not involved into it so they can solve it much better.
Interviewer: Right. You’ve met the pope, haven’t You?
Shri Mataji: I did.
Interviewer: The recent pope, the last one?
Shri Mataji: The last one.
Interviewer: The last one. Right.
Shri Mataji: I met him because we had gone to Poland and I said, “I would like to see some churches,” because I’m fond of architecture so they sent Me to Krakow where he was there, and they held a mass for Me because I was supposed to be VIP and all that and then after that we had tea together. And sitting, I raised his Kundalini and all that. It came up, it worked out but again it settled back. He asked Me about India, this, that but nothing about Spirituality. So sometimes it again comes up, goes down. Then I wrote a letter to one of the boys that, “I met a gentleman, a cardinal there and I saw the black Mary, because I was there in September and very bad time that September was, when the 1st of September Warsaw was bombed.
Interviewer: Ah, yes, right.
Shri Mataji: So while going to Warsaw I felt extremely sad and I said, “Why I’m feeling so sad here?” My husband said, “Why are You looking sad?” I said, “Never I feel that sad as I’m feeling now.” Then we got down and we found out that it was the day it was bombed. And 8th of September is the birth of Mother Mary so they have a black Madonna. They take out on procession – I saw that also and that’s the time I met this pope. Then this gentleman who I had written this letter – because he was also born on 8th of September, so I had just written to him – he said that, “Do You know, the same gentleman now has become the pope?”
Interviewer: Interesting. Do birth dates have a special…
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, yes quite a lot. Birthday is very significant about anyone but specially for people, for spiritual person. They’re born at a time when certain stars are there and there’s some truth in it. They have predicted about Me quite a lot and it’ll see now…
Jason: We heard that the other day Shri Mataji, yes.
Shri Mataji: They did?
Jason: Yes [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: Let us see it works out.
Interviewer: What have they predicted?
Shri Mataji: I mean, that Sahaja Yoga will spread such a lot and people will be changed and transformation will take place and that even politics will take over Sahaja Yoga and all that – quite a lot.
Jason: Judy, I’ll give you a copy of that [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: …and this man who has done it is not a Sahaja Yogi but he himself is now surrendered because when he saw My horoscope. There are horoscopes and horoscopes. There’s one predicted with somebody who – what was the – Krishnamurthy and according to him they calculated something. Now he’s this one, R.V. Raman who is a very well-known uh… astrologer – he’s no more. According to his astrology, this gentleman, Mr. Bhandari – he’s also well-known – has predicted all these things.
Jason: That Sahaja Yoga will become the, the principal belief system of the world
Shri Mataji: Yeah, that’s what he said
Jason: In several stages. 1996 was a very big stage.
Shri Mataji: Yeah. I think 1993 is also important as I’ll be 70 years of age that time. Two years more.
Interviewer: I wouldn’t admit that sort of thing. [LAUGHTER]
Jason: Shri Mataji doesn’t look it though.
Shri Mataji: I don’t know anything about it, it’s just like that is, I don’t know
Interviewer: What… when You started this in 1970, You decided that You wanted to help enlighten perhaps, or teach.
Shri Mataji: No, this was actually from My very childhood I knew I had to do this work…
Interviewer: Did You?
Shri Mataji: because formally, you see, it was the tradition that only one master will have one disciple, but in the 12th century there was one great saint in India called as Gyaneshwara. He took permission from his guru – his brother himself was a guru – that, “You just allow me to write about it openly because everybody’s said about it but nobody’s said how it will work out so why not let me, at least, write something about it.” So he was the first who wrote it in a book called ‘Gyaneshwari’, which is actually a book on Gita. In that he wrote in the sixth chapter that, “There is a power like this which will rise and which will give Self-realization”, and things like that. This was written in many Sanskrit books long time back: it’s 14,000 years back Markandaya wrote it, I mean, so it’s a very old theme, worked out by very few people. But in our own language like Marathi or Hindi which we speak, it was not available. So he’s the first one who told to the masses about this and it had to be worked out in such a way to be proved. So, when I was born I knew this was My own mission. My father also knew; He was also a realized soul, so he told Me that, “Don’t talk about religion, don’t talk about anything, just now You find out how to give realization to masses, not one to one, but to masses.”
So then, I used to… So in a way, they also can do it, enter into your being, you see: “What’s wrong with me, what’s wrong with him, what’s wrong.” So then I worked out – ’till 47 years of age I was busy finding out. Then I worked it out what is the permutation and combination is. Now the last centre was not opened – all of them were open, Kundalini, I could do it, with that the last was to be opened out. That I did on the 5th May, 1970, early in the morning. That time I saw this horrible Rajneesh, you see, mesmerising people. By chance I was there just to see what is here. When I saw that, you see, just I thought better start it now. So first I gave realization to only one lady, and then to one gentleman and then twelve people got realization. That’s how slowly it started.
Interviewer: Gosh. And how many people would have received realization now, do you think, in the world? How many would there be?
Male voice 1: Thousands.
Male voice 2: Hundreds of thousands
Jason: At least tens of thousands, pushing a hundred thousand: maybe more than a hundred thousand by now.
Shri Mataji: Bad at accounts. You can’t just say, because this is Sahaja Yoga is not a computation, it’s not an organization – it is how many practice it – you just can’t say how many practice it.
Interviewer: This, this ability – I mean, I‘ve read about the ability to look into people and find out what’s wrong with them, and You can do this
Shri Mataji: Well, all of you can do it.
Jason: All of us can do. We can read the chakras on our hands
Shri Mataji: On their hands they can
Jason: The sensations we get…..
Shri Mataji: That’s what is the Collective Consciousness which Jung has talked about – you must have heard about Jung?
Shri Mataji: Jung has talked about it
Shri Mataji: That’s same thing, same thing that you develop that new awareness, a new dimension in your awareness, on your Central Nervous System.
Interviewer: When you go into Beta… uh… apparently when people get into Beta waves, they can do this, is that right?
Jason: Yes. We’ve had some studies done recently, Shri Mataji – Dr Apatikar who…I mean we’ve got copies in the paper. In fact it’s included in that package that you’ve got, that the symptomatic of the steady meditation state is a vastly increased Beta emanation, and there are various other things that go on. But essentially what happens is that when the Kundalini is raised you are then in meditation…
Jason: … and how much you develop it and how much you learn to use that awareness, is then up to you. So that’s kind of two questions – there’s who has had their Kundalini raised, which could be hundreds of thousands of people by now, and they could have done nothing more with it but it’s a rather smaller number who’ve actually stuck to it; meditated every day, learned how to use their finger chakra monitoring system and have actually increased their sensitivity to the extent that they’re now vibrationally aware in every day. This is what Shri Mataji teaches us too, to work on very much, to develop our awareness so that we can perceive things through our vibrations, principally rather than through other means.
Shri Mataji: It works both ways, you see, we have to feel our depth so like a tree has to grow outward, the same way when you start working on others you start moving outwards and depth starts increasing and once you touch your Divinity within you, then you’re there, no problem.
Interviewer: Yeah, right.
Shri Mataji: [LAUGHTER] I’m only sorry that I’m meeting her after such a long time. I’ve been here many a times, you see and I wish we could have met earlier we would have done such a lot for Australia.
Jason: Hopefully it can happen now. [Shri Mataji interjects ‘Huh?’] We hope it can happen now.
Shri Mataji: It should. I mean, first of all there were so many horrible gurus here; you had so many horrible people working. Even now, I think, there are some already at it. One thing you must tell them that you cannot pay for your ascent. It’s a living process of a living energy of evolution and you can’t pay for that. Now, you may pay for a house or for… aeroplane tickets, that’s different but you can’t pay for this.
Interviewer: At what stage will You feel that You have achieved Your goal? Will it be when, when… how many people are…have received realization?
Shri Mataji: With that in two stages when we move. The first stage is we call as thoughtless awareness where you can silence your thoughts and you can watch, just watch – that’s you are in the present now, neither in the past nor in the future. Then this stage develops into another state, what you call as doubtless awareness – then you have no doubts about it, no problems and you yourself know that this is so. The certificate comes from you, from nobody else. Everybody has improved like that, everybody. Even Jason, ask him, he will also tell you the same.
Interviewer: I don’t know whether I’m weird but, this is a very hypnotic way, isn’t it? [LAUGHTER]
Jason: Yes, yes, it’s a very nice hypnotism [LAUGHTER]
Shri Mataji: In hypnosis, you see, you actually put some sort of a spirit in the person. There’s no modus operandi – you don’t know how it has happened – but in Sahaja Yoga you know each and everything; how the Kundalini rises, where is the Kundalini, how to raise it, what’s the problem of a particular person.
It’s the Parasympathetic Nervous System which you nourish, about which doctors don’t know. So, if you talk to a doctor he’ll understand or an engineer he’ll understand: that this is complete engineering. So the modus operandi is completely explained and proved. It’s not just talking, it is proved. Now supposing, some people say there’s no God. Alright, doesn’t matter – raise their Kundalini. Ask a question, “Is there God?” Whoosh. You get the cool breeze says yes. But supposing, there’s a cheat and you say, “Is he Godly?” Immediately you might feel hot, sometimes you get a blister with such a person. Relatively you should see it. Supposing, there’s a cancer patient. I put My hands to a cancer patient, immediately you’ll feel the heat of the cancer patient. That’s how you can find out what’s wrong with this person, what’s wrong with another person. Now only thing, if you know how to correct those centres, person is cured.
Interviewer: If you know how to…
Shri Mataji: … correct those subtle centres
Shri Mataji: …which are indicated on your fingertips.
Shri Mataji: Then if you know how to do that through the awakening of the Kundalini, then you can cure that person.
Jason: There are things… ways in which we can work on each chakra to clear out the dead energy, that may be blocking the chakra and to get it working again. And the state of the chakra is the origin of disease or health. [Hmm] It’s the very basis of it so we can work on the chakras and clear the condition.
Shri Mataji: So now for hypnosis, supposing I hypnotize him, supposing, he won’t be able to tell you what it is all about. He will not have any knowledge about it and it’s such a subtle knowledge, but you ask any sahaja yogi, they all know about it. They know how to work it out, they know how to give awakening, they know how to cure; they know everything. Such a subtle subject has become so easy for them because they have that light, I can say, and that understanding, that feeling by which they can judge it.
Interviewer: Can I, can I ask Your supporters – You – what difference it’s made to their life? Do You mind if I…
Shri Mataji: Yes, please ask, please ask.
Interviewer: Can you tell me what difference this has made to your life?
Female yogi: Oh, it’s completely transformed.
Interviewer: How has it transformed?
Female yogi: Basically, I was very, very… very aggressive and uh very – I’m trying to use words that you…are not Sahaja Yoga words – but very greedy, very rough, harsh, and lots of things like that and that’s balanced a lot more than I was then. And also I was very nervy – I used to suffer from Myositis… all the muscular… all the nerve tendons between all the muscles go crystallized, and that’s all gone. And erm, I used to go to a chiropractor every week – or sometimes twice a week – but I haven’t been for 11 years. Just totally in good health, you know. I mean I haven’t been sick apart from a cold in the last year, so… And people used to say to me, ‘But Pauline, you haven’t got a cold in about a year,’ and I’d have one by the end of the night sort of thing, you know! And now, I haven’t had… just cold is the only illness I’ve had… a slight cold. And then you just get a very mild version, don’t you?
Male yogi 2: Me? It wasn’t so much physical, it was…um, but my marriage was on the rocks and I was heading downhill fast – it was meant to, I think. And I could just see, after having Kundalini awakening, it was a logical step: that this was the way we could change direction. And um, I actually divorced but then my wife came into Sahaja Yoga and we remarried.
Shri Mataji: Is he married?
Interviewer: That’s different! [Laughter]
Male yogi 2: Yeah, it was an expensive exercise [Laughter]
Shri Mataji: Because children were in trouble, you see – they had children
Male yogi 2: Yeah, it got the marriage back straight and I could see it was the way to go and through – as Jason was saying – through vibrations, we thought this was the right way in order to approach our whole lifestyle.
Jason: So you had two children to start with [Yes] and since, he’s had another two with the second marriage, so now he’s got four children.
Interviewer: Right, and is that how many years apart?
Male yogi 2: 12…
Interviewer: 12 years apart.
Male yogi 2: 12 years difference
Interviewer: Jason, what’s it done for you?
Jason: It was very spectacular. I was a functioning alcoholic – slowly, well not very slowly, ceasing to function. I would say I was pretty neurotic, I believed that politics was a valid way to approach life for one thing: that’s a fairly neurotic belief. Umm, I don’t believe it now [Shri Mataji laughs] and…
Shri Mataji: Very hot-tempered he is.
Jason: Very hot-tempered – I was hot-tempered, that’s true and I’ve almost got rid of it now, touch wood…there’s only plastic in here to touch – and all told, I mean I gave up alcohol and tobacco the first day, I gave up politics a few months thereafter – I needed a little bit of persuading -, umm… and over eleven years, I’m, I suppose about, 5 – 8 % as hot tempered as I was. There’s still a little bit there but I mean, the transformation – people…you can ask anybody else if you don’t ask me. It’s…I feel that I’m a lot more peaceful, I’m working a lot better. Since I got realization, I went to university, and got a degree uh… had two changes of career, and now I’m starting to succeed as a writer and broadcaster My intelligence is working immeasurably better, I’m emotionally a lot happier. I mean, those are the kind of ordinary human things that are difficult to quantify, but from the inside, I know that the improvement is several thousand percent. And I know perfectly well that it couldn’t have come about without getting realization, without following the teachings of Shri Mataji, without letting Her look after me, Through just doing what She says, doing what She advises – although I’m a bit slow at that frequently. But nonetheless, despite me being slow at following Shri Mataji’s advice, it still works which shows that the Kundalini is tremendously powerful, it even overcomes the resistance of people with a lot of conditioning, a lot of ego and a lot of bad temper. So, I mean, for me there is…
Shri Mataji: But also how many of your friends in Brighton, I mean, just imagine, they were gone cases absolutely…
Jason: Drug cocktails [UNCLEAR they used to take?]
Shri Mataji: … hippies and all kinds of people from Brighton came in
Jason: Ruined, completely ruined brains, they took so many drugs…
Shri Mataji: Oh my, absolutely! Recluses, you can call them, recluses [Jason: Yes]
Shri Mataji: Paul Winter, just imagine, now he’s one of the very rich persons there and he’s doing very well; he discovered something and I mean, you can’t believe. And some people were from Oxford and Cambridge and London School of Economics – very highly educated – all into drugs. It was just a fashion – all into drugs – and they had become like cabbages, I tell you. Once when they came to Me some of them said they couldn’t even see Me. They just saw some sort of light, this, that, and all of them are absolutely alright and doing very well.
Interviewer: Gee, that’s good, yeah
Shri Mataji: So many of them. [Jason: I mean they just…] Alcoholics…
Jason: They stopped alcohol, drugs, smoking – I mean, all these things, none of the easy things – just like that
Female yogi: Yeah, you try, it just drops away and then sometimes you forget that the habits have gone and then a year later, you see somebody doing it and you think, ‘Gee, I used to do that and you’ve forgotten: you just grow and…
Interviewer: Do you realise, this is an enormous growth industry. I mean, think of all the millions of dollars that are spent on trying to give up smoking. [Laughter}
Shri Mataji: No, there is one Dr. Wells, you see, who was an alcoholic and also drug addiction but not so much as alcoholism and such a qualified man just wasted, and Rustom brought him to Me – another doctor, he’s head of the Psychiatry department in Amman – he brought him to Me and I looked at him and I said, “Now look at this man; such a educated, such a good person, just lost.” Out of frustration in his family and this and that he took to drugs. And when he became alright – now today he is in charge of seven hospitals in London.
Jason: And he’s Britain’s leading expert on addiction therapy
Shri Mataji: And he’s working on that, you see. And I told him, “What do you do?” And he said, “I come home and give them bandhans, that’s what.” [Shri Mataji laughs] He’s curing people so everybody has tremendous respect for him, because you cannot cure people, but he works out Sahaja Yoga.
Interviewer: That’s interesting. Have you had a…?
Male yogi 3: Well I, was working as a shop assistant and I was on the verge of collapse from stress and overwork and I got my realization and went along to the meetings, and I used to go to the ashram every night [to get vibrations?] and it pulled me right out until I got back to normal. I was very emaciated; I was just there on the verge of [a mental break?], so it changed me.
Jason: How old do you think he is now?
Interviewer: I don’t know I’m terrible at guessing people’s ages, I’m always wrong.
Shri Mataji: And also you must mention how you love each other – that’s very important. But we have people from, say, this time we had people from 56 nations for our seminar in India and the way they love each other, I mean, we never have a problem, never. They love each other, they look after each other.
I mean, like universal brotherhood has been established. And to see that, I feel so very happy. We had Russians, we had Bulgarians, Romanians, uh… we had people from East Germany, also from Hungary, Czechoslovakia – all this Western Bloc had also come, plus we had people from all over like Colombia and I mean, all the rest of it and the South American group and North American group – like that fifty-six nations and…
Interviewer: Just an [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: Yes. My husband says he works for the United Nations and he said, “I can’t think of any, any organization like this. I cannot think; there’s no problem, there’s no argument, nothing – just enjoying each other.”
Interviewer: Have you had an experience?
Male yogi 4: Yes, I can’t say I was an extreme of anything except perhaps physically. I have, just prior to discovering Sahaja Yoga, had a prolapsed disc which turned out to have been a thing of long standing and when I… Actually, when Shri Mataji first came to Australia, I was in hospital because they cut me open and had done all sorts of things to me and I was faced with having to wear a belt around me and a calliper on my leg and also another thing on my shoe to keep my foot straight and after about nine months, I sort of followed up to the doctor to see what my prognosis was and he said, “Well, you’re not going to get very much better.” He said, “You know we’ve done all we can, but this has been going on for 20 years and you know there’s a lot of damage done, and you’ve lost a lot of nerve function.” And so there I was there with all these things, you know – I had a stick, I had a stick as well – and in the meantime before this meeting with the doctor, I had discovered Sahaja Yoga and this healing process – and I’ve no doubt whatever that this is what was happening – uh, through the practices of Sahaja Yoga just continued. And I went way past the period where my healing should have cut off. Till now, I haven’t got any of those things. I can walk reasonably well – I can’t run very well. Uh, I’m not too good at dancing; I fall over! [LAUGHTER] Apart from that it’s, it’s… it’s virtually disappeared.
Interviewer: Can any of this be put down to power of positive thinking, to much degree?
Shri Mataji: Positive thinking is a mental process. Mental process can only develop your ego. It cannot help you much because if you think positively – well, according to us we go to the right side, and the left side is neglected, which is emotions and such a person can become very dry because you can rationalize anything. The balance is not there but in Sahaja Yoga actually, not that you achieve balance but also complete nourishment from the Divine force.
Jason: You’re actually getting an extra energy than you were before
Shri Mataji: All the time, yeah
Jason: All the time
Shri Mataji: It’s not only physical energy; it’s physical, mental, emotional and specially spiritual, and you are always joyous, always joyous and very happy person. Children are very happy; they become very intelligent as well as very compassionate. It’s very different world you enter into because it’s all within you – you have to just touch that Divinity.
Interviewer: Hmm, Wow, I can’t think of anything else to ask You. [LAUGHTER]
Shri Mataji: She’s gone into thoughtless awareness. [Shri Mataji laughs]
Jason: You’ve gone thoughtless, that’s one of the effects of it – you just go thoughtless
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s it. It’s thoughtless – there’s no thought.
Interviewer: Maybe that’s normal though.
Shri Mataji: It is normal. [UNCLEAR] — if you want you can think, otherwise you won’t. Otherwise you are bombarded by these thoughts, you don’t want to have them; they go on haunting – now you are free.
Interviewer: Now I am free. [Shri Mataji: Aah] Wait a sec – free to what? Free to what?
Shri Mataji: Free to think. Free to think in every way. You see, once you get your realization, nothing is important than your being so that you don’t take to any drugs; Become so powerful; nothing can touch you, nothing can dominate you – no habit, nothing.
Interviewer: So even I’m not going to go out to the car and have a cigarette? [Shri Mataji LAUGHS]
Jason: It’s up to you. [LAUGHTER] It’s your free choice, complete free choice.
Shri Mataji: You see, in Sahaja Yoga, it’s complete free choice. Animals have no choice; human beings have been given freedom to choose. Now by trial and error and method they try to learn, but still they cannot go very far. But once you get realization, the light shows them that it’s wrong and you… they just don’t do it. It’s a simple – always I give them a[n] analogy of a snake. Supposing it is darkness and you are holding on to a snake and somebody tells you, “Oh, there’s a snake, snake,” but you won’t give up. You’ll say, “No, it’s a rope.”In the darkness you can’t argue till the snake bites you and then suddenly when you see a little flicker of light, you just drop it yourself. So, I don’t tell them, “Don’t do this, don’t do that.” It just happens by themselves.
Shri Mataji: You become your own guide, you become your own guru – I don’t have to tell you anything. You see yourself what is benevolent for you, what is joyous for you, what is good for you. Everything you see yourself because it’s all within yourself. Only like one light which is enlightened, one candle which is enlightened, can enlighten another light, that’s all. But there’s no uh… nothing that has been done in such a way that you should feel obliged or nothing of the kind; it’s just one light which is enlightened gives light to another.
Interviewer: Thank You very much, that was fascinating.
Shri Mataji: May God bless you!
Shri Mataji: May God bless you!
Interviewer: Can I take a couple of pictures of You with my beginner’s camera, while everyone else around here has got terrific ones?
Shri Mataji: Yes, please do, please do. Please do. There’s already continuous… [Shri Mataji laughs ]
Interviewer: It’s strange to have this little camera, it’s had pictures that have appeared in every magazine but it’s just much embarrassing, it’s killing me. [Laughter] [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: [UNCLEAR] My husband. I’m hopelessly bad, I mean, I’ve never handled a camera all My life.
Interviewer: That’s not very good… [Flash?] Yeah, I’ll take couple but it’s very sporadic – it does everything automatically so I can’t ruin it.
Shri Mataji: This automatics is what?
Interviewer: Yeah, automatic everything, thank goodness. I just have to…
Shri Mataji: I know this one…
Interviewer: I’m sorry about the flash…
Shri Mataji: I know this one very well, it’s very good.
Interviewer: That’s magic! Thank You very much.
Shri Mataji: Thank you, thank you very much.
Female yogi: Shri Mataji, would You like some water?
Shri Mataji: Thank you. What about the lady – she may like some also.
Female yogi: Would you like, would you like something?
Shri Mataji: Please have.
Interviewer: Ok, thank you, that’ll be nice. [UNCLEAR]
Jason: Judy, if you can make it to the Town Hall tomorrow night, that’ll be a very nice thing, I mean…
Interviewer: It depends what I’m doing work-wise…
Shri Mataji: But only thing it should be announcement must be clear – wherever we are having the programs, so if you can give it in writing properly,
Jason: Yes, Mother.
Shri Mataji: because it happened sometimes that we didn’t give them and there was a confusion.
Interviewer: Alright, I’m getting to be very well read now [Shri Mataji LAUGHS]
Shri Mataji: Let him [UNCLEAR]
Interviewer: Well, I wish Your Australian trip is very successful.
Shri Mataji: Thank you very much. Success for Australia and for you. Australians really need it very much now – so many problems they have and I feel very concerned and so many are coming. I don’t know – they should be alerted at least. Like AIDS and all these things… I don’t know. They must be awakened.
Interviewer: Well, it looks like You’re doing Your bit to try
Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?
Interviewer: Looks like You’re certainly trying to do that
Shri Mataji: I’m trying that [UNCLEAR] on My…. [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION]
Female yogi: Vibrated water is very good for you. –
Interviewer: Is it?
Female yogi: Yes, yes just try.
Shri Mataji: Try, try
Female yogi: It changes the molecular structure of the water and everything
Interviewer: That’s [fantastic?]
Female yogi: Once Shri Mataji’s vibrated it. If you’re ever feeling sick… [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: Once there was a gentleman called – he’s quite a fan here [UNCLEAR] – and he said, “First You give me realization, then only it will be alright. Then I got some water and vibrated it. I said, “Have it.” He said, “Is it wine?” I said, “No, it’s water.” [LAUGHTER] He’s such a good Sahaja Yogi today. Lots of fans are here… Mr. Romanos..
Female yogi: That’s very special water! I’m sure you [UNCLEAR CONVERSATION] Please have it.
Interviewer: [To Shri Mataji] Do you want some?
Shri Mataji: No, it’s alright
Interviewer: Well, I can’t wait to see what happens.
Shri Mataji: Let’s see…
Male yogi: It’s subtle
Interviewer: It’s subtle, is it?
Female yogi: It is
Jason: Judy, if you have any follow up questions, I’ll be on the other number that’s on that kit I gave you.
Shri Mataji: There are so many other thing but you can tell her later on. Gradually she’ll know the inside and out – [Jason: Yes, she’s got my number…] you know how miraculous it is the time now. [Jason: She can follow up] We have not explored this area, is the point – we cannot. This is the knowledge of the roots. We have the knowledge of the tree and if we don’t have the knowledge of the roots the whole thing will be [UNCLEAR – WASTED?]
Interviewer: There are books being written now about Beta waves and what…
Shri Mataji: Horrible! They have written all nonsense, absolutely nonsense, without any authority, without any understanding. It’s a…You see, God is such a subject, Divine is such a subject – anybody can write. Even Hitler can write, even Saddam can write, I mean…
Interviewer: Right – they have.
Shri Mataji: They have. You see, how can we stop them – only thing the way they are punished.
Jason: Thanks very much Judy
Male yogi: Thanks Judy
Shri Mataji: Thank you, thank you
Interviewer: Thank you all,
Shri Mataji: Very nice meeting you. Thank you very much
Interviewer: Okay. Have a nice time in Brisbane.
Shri Mataji: Thank you, thank you.