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Public Program, Tunis (Tunisia), 11 November 1994.
[42:39. This is a TV interview just before entering on the stage at the public program. It will be transmitted on the national news.]
Interviewer (Lady): Shri Mataji, did you find a nice welcoming audience in Tunisia?
Shri Mataji: Yes, very much so, thank you very much, very kind of you.
Interviewer (Lady): Which are your impressions, your feelings coming here?
Shri Mataji: I mean, it’s one of the many places I have visited like this. I like the architecture
Very much and the climate is very good. And the ladies here are really very powerful I should say, very good ladies.
Interviewer: Sukran, thank you.
[Cut in the video]
[Short introduction of Shri Mataji in Arabic by the Tunisian interviewer.]
Interviewer (Lady): Shri Mataji, which are the benefits one can get from Sahaja Yoga and what is special about this technique?
Shri Mataji: First of all, one has to know that it is the breakthrough into a new awareness and the last breakthrough of our evolution.
Interviewer (Lady): Which is the audience and the reaction, the welcoming you found in Tunisia?
Shri Mataji: [Smiling, Shri Mataji puts Her hand on the mike] I’ve told all this.
[The lady interviewer explains that Shri Mataji has not yet finished to answer]
The benefits are, first of all, that the fundamental energy centres within us are called are charkas, and they are responsible for our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual being.
So when this power, which is a Kundalini in the triangular bone called as sacrum- that shows the Greeks knew it was a sacred bone- which is awaken and passes through six centres, as a result, these centres are integrated and are nourished and enlightened. So your physical, mental, emotional and spiritual problems are solved. As a result also your financial, political and income problems are also solved, because you become a transformed personality. And when this transformed personality starts behaving in a manner that is so congenial to spirituality, people are amazed!
Now our problem is that we don’t know the absolute truth. By this you know the absolute truth and you become empowered that you can give Realization to others. You can solve their problems. So it is something that, like one enlightened light can enlighten many. This is Resurrection as described in the Koran.
[Interviewer asks in Arabic and in French what are Shri Mataji’s feeling about Tunisia]
Interviewer (Lady): Shri Mataji, what is your feeling coming to Tunisia?
Shri Mataji: I think it’s a very spiritual place. Then I heard that there was a great saint who died here. That is, I could feel it that his blessings are here on this country.
And there is such a balance, I’ve seen, the women are treated so well in this Islamic country, it’s very remarkable. And a thing of hope for all the women of the world in Islamic countries who are really suffering very much.
Interviewer: Thank you very much, “merci”.
[Talk starts at 59:09 on video]
I bow to all the seekers of truth. At the very outset, we have to know that truth is what it is. We can not change it, we can not transform it and we can not know it through reading. Reading is just a mental activity. You have to go beyond the mind to realize the truth and hence you have heard already that there is a subtle system within us, built-in for that task. This is very important because we do not know the absolute truth. Some people believe that this is the truth, some believe that is the truth, and there is a war going on with all these ideas which are absolutely mental. Now it’s not possible to go beyond the mind, because whenever you try that, you go into wrong direction. To get to it, this process of Kundalini awakening has to take place.
For example, this instrument is here, and it has to be connected to the mains; otherwise it has no meaning. So we have to know the absolute truth, and absolute truth is that in which everyone believes because he has the awareness. All the religions have talked about your second birth. In Koran, Oiyama is the resurrection already described. Resurrection has to take place that you become a navi, you become a wali. Before that, it’s very difficult to follow Islam, or Christianity, or any one of these religions because Hazrat Mohammed Saheb, or Christ, or Moses, they were all very highly evolved incarnations. For example, Christ said that ‘If your eyes are doing something sinful, you take out your eyes. To look at a woman twice is a guneah.’ So you take out your eyes, according to Christ. And if your right hand is doing something wrong, cut it out. They thought all human beings were angels and these laws they made for angels. I haven’t seen any Christian who has lost any one of his eyes or hands anywhere.
Then Mohammed Saheb came in; He thought that only the men are being, Christ had been strict with only men. He was another pure incarnation of Divinity and he didn’t know that what sort of human beings He is dealing with. So then He passed, He, He had made some laws for the women also, which were quite difficult. For He said that if a woman looks at another man, who, to whom she is not married, can be buried in the Mother Earth; can be stoned. If this rule is applied to American women, I don’t know, there may not be sufficient place to bury them (all?). What about the French ladies? Most of them are now in Arab countries, enjoying a nice time, without getting buried.
So, one must understand that we have to become, first of all, angels, so that we can follow these great people. Also, Shariat that Islam are saying is important, was given by Moses to Jews, not to Muslims. If you read one of the (INAUDIBLE) you’ll have five (INAUDIBLE): he’s written this that this was given by Moses, Moses, to Jews, not to Muslims, because Moses found such a decadent society when He brought these ten – can you do it afterwards? Just, if you sit down it will be better (Mohter speaks to one photograph-taker from the audience) – because Moses found such a decadent society that He passed these laws that you should cut the hand of a person who steals, such strict rules and then the Muslim adopted it. Whether they are Muslims or Christians or Hindus or even Jews, they are all normal human beings.
So, with these normal human beings you can’t have these strict rules. They are not yet capable of following them. By this, people become absolutely hypocritical. What can they do? I don’t blame them. I’m a Mother, so I understand. First thing is to make them angels, to make them navis. Then, they will not do these things at all. Automatically, they will be very religious people. You don’t have to stand them anything. So this is the purpose of Sahaja Yoga: that you all have to become first angels.
I’ll tell you an example. I was coming from Riyadh to London and I went off to sleep. When I got up, I found absolutely different people on the plane. All the ladies who were travelling were dressed up in a very orthodox way, also the men and then I opened my eyes, and I saw extremely fashionable ladies, with all thing exposed, and the men, like dandies, smoking, drinking… I said, ‘What’s this?’ So I asked the air hostess, ‘Did we touch some other airport?’ She said, ‘They are the same. What makes you think..?’ ‘I mean, I can’t recognize them,’ I said, ‘I’m really sorry. How are they changed like this?’ So she told me, ‘They always do like that.’ Just imagine: from Riyadh, where people are cutting hands and are punishing women to such a great extent, how could they do this in the plane, without any fear of God? I was amazed and I was thinking, ‘What’s the matter with them?’ Then I realized they are normal human beings. They are (confronting?) temptations of life and their personality is such that they take to these things very easily.
I mean, in the West, especially I have seen that men or women have no personality. Anybody can befool them. If there is one gentleman called Armani, he makes a particular dress, everybody wants to buy that. And in England there’s a shop called Saville Row’s, I mean, there’s many shops. So expensive they are. Now they put the Saville Row stamp here. Thousands, thousands and thousands of pounds they spend to buy that suit. Indians, I must say, they may be poor but they won’t do such stupid things. They’ll say, ‘Get lost; we have nothing to do with this.’ Can you believe, in India, there is no shop where you can buy anything that is imported? (Yogini translator: Sorry Shri Mataji, I didn’t hear.) Can you believe that in India, there is no shop where you can something imported. They are very patriotic. They export but they never will buy anything imported in a shop in India. You see, perhaps maybe three hundred years we have lived under domination of the British and we developed such a ridicule for them because, not because they were dominating us, but because of their culture. Horrible. Like one grandmother ran away with the fiancé of her granddaughter. Such horrible things happened, in our times, when we were young. That’s why we have no fundamentalism, because they can not say, ‘We follow Westerners.’ We are so much grounded in our own culture, that nobody can say that we are following others.
I’m sorry to say that I was surprised now how the Americans and also German, French, are exploiting the poor countries. Say in South America: all these countries are so poor. Russia and all Eastern Block: still not come up and all the junk of America which doesn’t sell there, because of recession, and Germany and also France, is selling all that. In Russia one dollar is equal to three hundred roubles and they are spending all their savings on these junks that are selling there. So what we have to do is when you get your Self enlightened by your Spirit, you see all this nonsense. You don’t have to worry about anything, but you have to become the Spirit. Then you become so powerful, you don’t want to be following all this nonsense. You have your own personality. I think this is the greatest thing that has happened to Western people; who, by getting Sahaja Yoga, have got back their personalities because we develop respect for ourself, respect for your country, respect for your country’s culture, which was ancient, and with that respect you become such a powerful personality, that you don’t take to all this nonsense.
So first is to find out your identity. As I said, if this is not connected to the mains, what is the identity of this instrument? But once you are connected with that, then nobody can befool you like this and make money out of you. You have in your hands, this cool vibrations which is Ruh. In the Koran is called as Ruh, in the bible as the Cool Breeze of the Holy Ghost, and also in Sanscrit it is called as the All-Pervading Power of Divine Love: Chitanya. Once it start flowing through you, you can know on your fingertips the absolute Truth. You can know what is wrong with you, on your centres, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual; you can find out on your fingertips, and when you want to know about anybody else also you can find out. If that person is dead also you can find out. If you know how to correct these centres, by Sahaja Yoga technique, you can cure yourself. So you go into the centre in a balanced way.
One way we can say that Western world is one extreme and the fundamentalists are another extreme. You have to come in the centre and to come in the centre is very easy. Once you come in centre, you give up all bad habits, just like this. You’ll be surprised: in a country like England, people gave up drugs overnight. Just how? There’s a very good simile I will say. Now supposing is all darkness and you have a snake in your hand and you are obstinate, I am obstinate, supposing I am holding the snake, and you will tell Me that, ‘See, Mother, there’s a snake in Your hand; it will bite You,’ but I hold it because I’m obstinate and conditioned but as soon as there is little light, I’ll throw away the snake. That’s how it works.
So first we have to have the light of the Spirit within us, shining, that makes our attention so powerful and enlightened. Whatever is described in all these books, like Christ has said: ‘Though shalt not have adulterous eyes.’ Imagine it: the French believe in it, the English believe in it, Americans believe without doubt. I haven’t seen anybody before realization didn’t have adulterous eyes, but after realization they become so innocent, so innocent. You have to know that your innocence can not be destroyed. It exists eternally. You might have got some clouds because of some misdeeds, but it can not be destroyed, and after realization it just expresses itself, manifests. Such a person becomes extremely harmless, compassionate and innocent. All the fears drop out because you become one with the Divine which looks after you. This is the real actualisation of your resurrection. It’s not just talks, sermon, nothing, and the energy of this Divine starts flowing through you, and so many blessings…I need not tell you because it is too much in first lecture to tell you.
Now you must know, I am going to be 72 years of age and I travel practically every second, third day. I do not feel tired, anything, because all the time this energy is flowing, so what is there to feel tired? People go to these beauty clinics, this thing to become young, to get rid of wrinkles; there’s no need to have wrinkles at all after realization. You keep perfectly alright; everything is perfect, and you don’t indulge into all these things at all because you are so much satisfied of your (power?).
So this Kundalini is your own power, is your own Mother. She is the reflection of the Primordial Mother within you. In Greece it was called as ‘Athena.’ ‘Atha’ means ‘primordial.’ Also, in ancient times, people believed in the Mother Goddess. In the bible, Paul, because he hated women, he didn’t want to talk of the Mother at all. As a result, he made women look very small and worthless. Imagine, in England they are still fighting over whether the woman should be priest or not. Compared to Indians, I would say, they are very primitive in spirituality because in India, the woman is the power. She is the potential power, and man is the kinetic power and also it’s said that ‘where the women are respected and respectable, there reside the Gods.’ I find in Tunisia, that women are respectable and respected, that’s why you have such a good atmosphere.
Now, we have to understand that this Mother of ours is our individual Mother and She knows everything about us, so we are not to feel guilty about anything. Let her judge you. This is also a Western fashion to feel guilty. They will drink and feel guilty, they’ll smoke and feel guilty. You don’t have to feel guilty because you catch on this centre here and you can develop very serious diseases like angina or spondilitis. First thing we have to do, not to feel guilty. After all, you are normal human beings, you are not Gods, you are not Incarnations. Also you are not angels. So you are human beings and as humans beings it’s alright to make mistakes, doesn’t matter. Also, if you have done some mistakes, face them at that moment. Don’t carry it all your life.
This enlightened personality has such an attention that when such a person pays attention to anyone, he can bring joy, peace, and health because he himself becomes the source of joy, peace and health. Such a person emits joy and pure love. In the Koran it’s written that when you go to Heaven you will meet (INAUDIBLE) and (INAUDIBLE). It’s true. Means very beautiful men and very beautiful women, you meet, but you don’t have dirty feelings towards them. There is no feeling of, we can say, of carnal love but very pure feelings. Is a fact. Now we are working in 65 countries and I haven’t seen anybody running away with somebody’s wife, or running away with somebody’s husband. Is so simple and so spontaneous because you also get a new dimension in your awareness called as ‘collective consciousness.’ You can feel another person on your fingertips. If you can cure yourself you can cure others. In Delhi we have four doctors who have got their MD in Sahaja Yoga, MD. They have cured incurable diseases. Today I was reading in the newspaper, they’re trying to find out cure of cancer. Sahaja Yoga definitely cures cancer. Of course in a very galloping state may not, but so far, so many have been cured, even of blood cancer but you have to become a Sahaja Yogi. Unless and until you are a Sahaja Yogi, it doesn’t work out.
In that state of Sahaja Yogi, first thing that happens to you, that you become thoughtlessly aware. That means all the time that your mind is producing thoughts, from the future or from the past, but you can not stand in the present. The past is finished, and the future doesn’t exist but the reality is in the present. So when this Kundalini rises, She pushes these thoughts, which are like this, and makes the space for the present and it makes you thoughtlessly aware. Means you are absolutely aware…there’s no word in French for ‘aware.’ (To Yogini translator: ) Alright? Say what you like. (Laughter.) In that state you become absolutely peaceful within yourself. You witness the whole world as a drama. You become the source of peace. I’ve met many people who got awards in peace, and what I’ve found; there is no peace in their heart. They are so hot-tempered, that if you had to reach them better take a barge pole. I don’t know how they got this award. The peace has to be within yourself. But in the second state, you become doubtlessly aware, when you have no doubts about it – about yourself, about Sahaja Yoga, about God, about religion – no doubts at all. You know so many things which really surprise you that you did not know them before. Luckily, we have people who are realized souls, but they are not aware of it.
So with Sahaja Yoga you will scientifically know what are your centres, what work they do, how you have to achieve the highest state in spirituality. Mohammed Saheb has said that after you have become a mali, after resurrection, you don’t have to follow Shariat or anything. For that you don’t have to go to Himalayas, stand on your head, give up your family, nothing is needed. One can only understand Islam, Mohammed Saheb, Christ, Bible, only when you have got your subtle identity of a spiritual personality. You become extremely dynamic, as well as you become extremely compassionate.
Above all, you jump into the Ocean of Joy. Joy is singular: it is not like happiness and unhappiness, which are the two sides of one coin. This is the experience of Self, of your Being. Otherwise say, you say, ‘This is my idea, this is my thought, this is my emotions, my, my, my…,’ but who is this owner of ‘My’? Who is the owner of this ‘My’? That is the Self, the Spirit.
I am sorry there are so many others who are going to speak on this subject, and in this short time, I can only tell you that you are the best people for Sahaja Yoga. In English language only I must have given at least 5000 lectures, at least. So you can all listen to those lectures, but it’s not mental. First you have to go beyond the mind and that will take hardly any time. You have waited for so long, and I’m sure it’s going to work out tonight. Just you have to have full faith in yourself. There is one thing: I can not force this experience of Self on you but the truth is that you are not this body, this mind, this emotions, this intellect, your conditionings, your ego, but you are the Pure Spirit. The second truth is that there is a All-Pervading Divine Power which does all living work. You see, these…(tape changes side here…may be words lost)…but we take all living work for granted.
(Another break in tape here…may be words lost)…doctor who runs your heart. He’ll say it’s autonomous nervous system. But who is this ‘auto’? They have no answer. Science has no answer for many questions. Moreover, it is amoral. It’s not bothered about your morality. Only recently I was surprised in Russia; they wanted to put morality above science. First of all, it can not say why are we on this Earth? That’s what you have to know; to be the instrument of the Divine.
I don’t think I should answer any questions today, what you think? I’m working like this, for last 25 years, and had lots of intellectuals of the West on my head. Now I’ve become expert; I can answer any question. That is of no value. It is a mental acrobat. So, best is to have your enlightenment, but if you don’t want to have, I can not force. This is the last judgement. You have to decide on your own. Now if you don’t want to have your Self-realization, you should leave the hall now. Nothing bad will happen to you, but you’ll get your benevolence (right/light?). Is for your benevolence, for the benevolence of your family, for the benevolence of your country, for the benevolence of the whole world. So if anybody wants to leave, I wait for one minute.
This is your own right, to have this Realization. There is no obligation, and you can not pay for it because it’s so spontaneous. But after Realization, you have to know everything about it, and grow into your spirituality like a great saint. You have to be normal, normally dressed, and living normally; nothing abnormal should be done, but inside you get a complete transformation. So no one wants to go, I’m very happy.
Everybody has to be seated. If there are one or two chairs, if you can bring in, all the people should be seated. Now the first condition, as I told you, you are not to feel guilty. Now, the second condition is, as you forgive yourself, you have to forgive others. You might say it is difficult, but logically it is not. Logically, whether you forgive or don’t forgive, you don’t do anything. But, but when you don’t forgive, then you play into wrong hands and torture yourself, and at this moment if you don’t forgive, the centre here of optic chasma is like this, absolutely, like this. It is constricted, so when you forgive it opens like this, and then only this Kundalini can pass through. So don’t say it is difficult, it’s very easy. Just say, ‘I forgive everyone,’ and don’t even think about them, that’s a headache. Now third condition is very simple, that you have to take out your shoes. In England when I told them first time, half of them wanted to leave. The English are attached to their shoes. Now please put both your feet on the ground, parallel. I must tell you, this Mother Earth sucks your problems.
Now, now just try to understand. Put both the hands towards Me as you do for namaaz. Now see if there is a cool breeze, like vibrations, or hot coming in your hands. And don’t doubt. You’re Muslims, that’s why. With the Western people, I have to struggle. Feel it? Now, watch Me without thinking. Forgive yourself, forgive yourself (INAUDIBLE), and forgive everyone without thinking about it, in general. (Pause.) They are like Indians. Alright? Are you feeling? Just see, don’t doubt.
Now, just put your right hand towards Me like this, and put down your head, and see with your left hand if there’s a cool breeze like vibrations, maybe hot, coming out of your head. Some people might get it hot because you have not forgiven yourself or you have not forgiven others, so now do it. Now please put your left hand towards Me, and now put down your head and see for yourself if there’s a cool breeze like or maybe hot coming out of your fontanelle bone area, which was the soft bone in your childhood. Sometimes you get it close to your head, sometimes away from it. Now once more, feel it. Don’t put the hand on the head, away from the head. Now put the right hand towards Me, and put down the head again and see for yourself.
Now please raise both your hands towards the sky, push back your head, like in a namaaz. Now ask a question: You ask Me – you can call Me Mother or Shri Mataji – ask a question, ‘Mother, is this the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost?’, that question you can ask. Or you can ask, ‘Mother, is the Ruh?’, or you can ask, ‘Mother is this the Paramchaitanya?’ One of the questions you ask. ‘Mother is this the Ruh?’ Ask three times. Now take down your hands.
Put your hands like this towards Me little higher, and watch Me without thinking. It’s coming from here for some people. Put the hand like this and bring it up if it is coming like that. Alright, now see. Watch Me without thinking. You feel very relaxed. Now, those who have felt cool or hot breeze on their fingertips or on their palms or out of their fontanelle bone area, please raise both your hands. (Pause.) Whole of Tunisia. May God Bless You.
I bow to you all now, you have become saints and in it, but you have to grow into it. First of all you don’t have to pay. You can’t pay because God doesn’t understand money and it is so invaluable. Most of you, I think 99.9% people have felt it. Now we have people who will be talking about it more elaborately tomorrow, and I hope you’ll enjoy that. Also, we are trying to arrange a program for the ladies on the Sunday evening if that is (INAUDIBLE). Yes. Thank you very much.
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi