Conversation at Matthias’ apartment, Geneva, 1982-08-21

Shri Mataji: Very powerful. But for this incident and this church, I would never have said all these things. [unclear] But it cannot [unclear] vibrations.

Sahaja Yogi: It’s quite powerful! [Laughter]

Gregoire: Magda told me that she heard somebody going out saying, “I admire this person for the courage with which She is speaking.” That to speak like that about Swiss

bank in the country of Europe.

[Laughter] [Applause]

Shri Mataji: In India all the ministers, even our Prime minister who has made this kind of money have put it in this bank of yours. They must know that they are helping the thugs.

It’s a fact. What can you do? I mean, if there is a bank to keep their money, they will have.

Sahaja Yogi: Actually, Mother the whole economy, very much the economy of Geneva is based on that because these people, they travel frequently to Geneva and they stay in hotels, they bring the family. The restaurants make money, and the hotel makes

money. It’s very much all linked to the prosperity of this city.

Shri Mataji: Very much.

Sahaja Yogi: I remember customers of ours, with whom we worked, who also have black money here. When they come here for [unclear] they come for the bank. Not that much to meet, to come to our company but for the banks.

Shri Mataji: You see, anybody who has white money will never put in the bank, I can tell you this. The reason is, it’s in fact Jews. Because Jews are always frightened. You forget about it. And Jews will always, they will not disrespect their money in anything but in the

bank because they think anytime they may be ousted from the country.

Sahaja Yogi: So, she would say yes to this [inaudible]. [is this in fact spoken by Shri Mataji?]

Shri Mataji: They are the other one. They too have black money but mostly the people who have white money do not put money in the bank. Because the interest rate that they are getting is very low. Secondly, the money that we put in the bank today is because of inflation. After some time, it’s going to become zero. You are certain.

So, in India, if you have put, say, thousand rupees about ten years back, today the value of that thousand rupees is [unclear].

Instead of, if you put that money into something, investment, into say, some beautiful piece of art or something, that will increase. Even in the house, if you put, it will increase. Anything you put like that it will not decrease, it will increase. House if you put it, it’s the best because if you get a house, a house for others or for yourself, even activity and all that by the time it is ten years or so, definitely you will get a much bigger price for the house than you get it normally.

So it is stupid to put the money in the bank, absolutely stupid, I tell you. In India, those who put the money in the bank, after ten years their money has no value and the interest is zero. So, now you will be amazed that people have taken out money in India and they are putting in the industry. And if there is inflation or anything, there’s a problem, if there is de-valuation, that’s much worse. If there is devaluation then the money goes out and you don’t know what to do. But if you have things in which you have invested your money, the value never goes down, you see, where is the inflation of it? It’s simple economics which I don’t understand.

Those who are putting money in the bank, on the contrary it’s a big headache, I tell you. They charge you for using our money there, just imagine. Interest rate in England was eighteen to twenty percent when they gave you money. And when we put our money, they take 6 percent. Can you imagine? Locked up money like that.

So, only the black money can be invested. And the black money, it can be looked after because these banks, and they charge you money to put their money there. Isn’t it? They don’t give you any interest. You have to pay for their keeping your money safe. Can you

imagine? This Swiss bank.

Sahaja Yogi: Mother, it’s kind of a violence.

Gregoire: No more Mother, it’s no more so.

[Translates into Italian]

Shri Mataji: Say, if you buy some gold ornaments. The prices of that will now triple and you have used them and you have decorated your [unclear], they have tripled.

Sahaja Yogi: [Speaks in Italian]

[Laughter]

Shri Mataji: Another thing they do wrong, the things become antique. So, [unclear].

Sahaja Yogi: Gold has reached today four hundred and ten dollars.

Shri Mataji: Dollars?

Sahaja Yogi: Four hundred and ten dollars by now. It is growing like crazy.

Gregoire: You see, Mother, one day I thought I had an examination at ten o’clock in the morning. So, I got up at 6 o’clock in Basel, I go to Bern, I arrive, the examination was at fourteen o’clock in the afternoon. So, I didn’t know what to do. So, I said, “Why don’t I go and meet my banker, after all.” I write to him. So, I go and see my banker. Then, I did not know what to tell to this man. So after some time, I asked him, “Why don’t you buy me one kilo of gold?” So, we did it, yes! So, I bought 1 kilo of gold at the time

when gold was quite low. And now! [Laughter]

Shri Mataji: Rustom was telling me about that one. Rustom told me that I should buy gold on the money of the Ashram. But, you see, I had not consulted anyone for such [unclear].

[Unclear] because you see, that is money between you and me [unclear].

I didn’t consult Gavin or Diva. [Unclear] just want to do something arbitrary. I should have. But sometimes – 

Gregoire: [Unclear] it is between you and you, you see.

Shri Mataji: That’s true but [unclear]. I like to keep it quite this way because otherwise, everybody will start doing in the same way. [inaudible] I found somethings are rather [unclear]. Yes, of course, it’s true, there is nothing to worry but, I mean they are not going to question me, but true, it’s not a good example for him.

I should have bought.

Gregoire: I don’t know, I read in some kind of news, not serious newspaper, that there would be a kind of financial apocalypse in November 1982.

[Laughter]

Shri Mataji: I wanted to talk to them [inaudible].

[Gregoire translates into Italian]

Shri Mataji: Gregoire, how much did it cost you, 1 kilo that time?

Gregoire: 22,500 thousand Swiss Francs. 22,500 thousand Swiss Francs. Now it is 28 thousand Swiss Francs or something like that.

Shri Mataji: Now what is it, 22 means how many pounds?

Sahaja Yogi: It’s about six and a half thousand pounds.

Shri Mataji: Six thousand pounds. Good.

Sahaja Yogi: Mother, could you give us some news about India [inaudible]?

Shri Mataji: India? What do you mean?

Sahaja Yogi: [Unclear] It was about, it was the questions we were asking in the car, Mother.

Shri Mataji: Oh [unclear]. But what about Bombay, is it all right now? Is there any news about Bombay?

Sahaja Yogi: No Mother.

Shri Mataji: No news in Bombay. 

[Laughter and indistinct chatter]

Shri Mataji: Just because these horrible things [unsure].

Sahaja Yogi: Mother we should have a nicer car.

Shri Mataji: What?

Sahaja Yogi: We should have a nicer car.

[Laughter]

Shri Mataji: Not an austere one.

Sahaja Yogi: He can [unclear] anything Mother.

[Yogis talking, unclear]

Shri Mataji: Now the first and foremost thing is about land. So, there are so many lands in the offering, that it is not easy to keep their account. We had applied to the government who very kindly gave us the plot of land, at half price. For one acre of land, and they are believed to give us a second acre of land at the same price. We have paid them part of the money. We have not paid them the full money, so far. Because that’s the third land that is offered to us; this is the second land that I’m telling. And there is a third land that is offered to us. Now the first land that is offered, we have got the permission, it is our own, is about seven acres of land, near Bombay, about two hours journey at the most from Bombay, two hours. How many miles about? 25, 30 miles. In India, it is too much.

Sahaja Yogi: [Unclear].

Shri Mataji: Towards [unclear] He said towards, I think, [unsure, Pune?] 

Sahaja Yogi: It is on the highlands then.

Shri Mataji: It’s not so much highlands, but there is a little brook running, seven acres of land extends and there are hills behind it. But it’s not, actually, the place where we are, is not the highlands. It’s the little in-between lowland and the places in between as a plateau sort of thing. So, that’s why. And that’s our own.

Now I wanted to start a school in there, in that place, that seven acres of land. A school for Sahaja Yogi children, school for Sahaja Yoga people, school for teachers, school for international children, for boys and girls. That was my idea and that’s why [unclear, I deserve?] that land. For that school, we need about six, seven lakhs of rupees to complete according to [unclear] picture. But to at least, to do some justice to it, we need four lakhs of rupees. We need to raise how many pounds?

Gregoire: [Translates into Italian]

[Laughter]

[Translates into French]

Shri Mataji: Very fast!

Gregoire: Sometimes I miss little bit also between what You say.

Shri Mataji: Hum?

Sahaja Yogi: About 25,000.

Shri Mataji: Pounds?

Sahaja Yogi: Pounds.

Shri Mataji: Sure?

Sahaja Yogi: It’s 400,000 rupees. About 25,000 pounds.

[Marie translates into French]

Shri Mataji: Now, we have another land which I told you about, is the second land which was given to us. [Unclear] for which we have to give money, and we have to build an ashram there, if we have to. That will cost about at least eight lakhs of rupees altogether.

It’s a third very beautiful land, that’s why we come here. It’s a very beautiful land which we have got which is about the same distance. It’s on top of a hill. From here, you can see three lakes [Tulsi, Powai, Vihar Lakes] and is a very ancient land described in the old ancient books in the Treta Yuga.

And very beautiful place, I like the vibrations, very nice. That is the place where we have got absolutely free land for which we don’t have to pay anything of one acre. And they can have a nice ashram there.

Whether you have this ashram or that ashram, you’ll have to be above altogether, to take that as four lakhs and this as six lakhs, at least ten lakhs. Minimum of ten lakhs to make the places comfortable. Just now, Indians have got six lakhs of rupees already in the bank. The amount that has come from [inaudible].

Gregoire: He’s not?

Shri Mataji: Not rich. Doesn’t matter.

The Indians have done it through long time and proper [unclear], they have ways and methods of advertising, this, that. They might be able to collect some more money, and I’m sure we’ll be able to start the work now, and within two, three years’ time, we’ll be able to collect the complete money.

Apart from that there is another beautiful piece of land which is about 25 acres. How

much [inaudible]?

Sahaja Yogi: Just half a hectare.

Shri Mataji: Hmm?

Sahaja Yogi: Half a hectare.

Shri Mataji: 4,480 square yards.

Yogi: 4,000 square meters.

Shri Mataji: 4,000 square meters.

So, this huge land is available to us near the river which is called by my name, Nira. And it’s very fertile, good land. And there is a beautiful temple of Narsimha, a very great [unclear], ancient times.

Gregoire: Where is it, Mother?

Shri Mataji: It is near Belapur, near, between- if you go from Pune to Belapur, on your way. Or to [unclear] on your way.

Sahaja Yogini: Did we go there, Mother?

Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?

Sahaja Yogini: Did we go there, on the Tour?

Shri Mataji: Last year, we did pass through that place, if you remember. Those who were with Me last year, we came via that place. No, last before that.

Sahaja Yogi: Yes, Mother.

Shri Mataji: And we saw that ancient temple of Narsimha.

Apart from that, what this land is, it’s very good because this land can be given on rent to you people, you can take it on rent. You can build your little huts there, you can look after our little garden. For your retirement you can use that for a very nominal price in the rent, that would be a very nominal price. That all can be decided later on, because foreigners in India are not allowed to buy any land, thank God. Otherwise, everybody will buy it out, you see.

So, you can get a – say, a place will [unclear, work?], you can build your [inaudible] one chalet or hut, whatever is done. But main thing is for Sahaja Yogis to think that, you see, “Everything belongs to Mother”. And that, “This belongs to me, this belongs to me”, “Mine should be better than yours”, you see, all this competitiveness must go away. You have to live collectively in a very nice place, we’ll build there whatever it is nice, just to enhance the beauty of Mother’s land. That’s all. It all belongs to Mother. Let’s have that kind of a feeling, it’s the best way. Because if you also start again that possession trip, then it’s no use.

[Gregoire translates to French]

Shri Mataji: So that Pravini [Sarasvati] can see how Sahaja Yogis built a detached, with detached attitude, some place is not for themselves or for their own family, or anything, but for the Mother. Of course, it will be reserved for your family whenever they come. But you should not have a sense of possession or, you know, your children might start fighting a legal right against us, that’s what we don’t want.

[Gregoire translates to French]

Shri Mataji: And your children also should be realized souls, we’ll have laws like that. Those who are not realized souls, will not be allowed to stay in that area.

[Gregoire translates to French]

Shri Mataji: Because we are talking of a new world of new people of new ideas of new dimensions.

[Gregoire translates to French]

Shri Mataji: So, that land has one problem, which is facing now, because the fellow who gave it to Me, I asked first to buy that, because I gave the money partly to him. But I said, “The Trust should pay the money”. Better to have it in the Trust, I thought, because Trust will be able to manage better than [inaudible] Me [inaudible]. But now the fellow has recalled to say, “I don’t want to sell it to the Trust. I’ll sell it to You”. So, I’m sure my husband will pay that much money perhaps. If not, you can pay him on my behalf.

If so, I’m just telling you plainly. Maybe C.P. might agree to pay that much money, it’s alright, and that I can own the place. But it’s all your own, nobody, none of my children are going to claim it [unclear].  

Sahaja Yogi: [Inaudible]

Shri Mataji: So, that is what it is. So, let’s see another thing which we are going to have [inaudible] But all these projects, you can only think over when I’ll go to India after three years or [unclear, four?].

[Inaudible]

But I would say that all the Sahaja Yogis must try to save some money for such a thing. Because supposing tomorrow it is ready and then you want to buy. You know that you must have money to buy. And second to that, I cannot say how much it will be, cost. But it would be the minimum of minimum because [inaudible] in India, it’s a cheap thing. And

you are not going to make a very elaborate sort of a thing [inaudible] rustic place.

Which will be comfortable, but in a rustic place where we’ll have very natural things. It will work out. And it will cost you about say, from five thousand rupees to ten thousand rupees.

[Conversation about it, unclear]

Gregoire: Anyway, it’s very cheap.

Shri Mataji: Very cheap. I mean that’s what they are telling Me today. I don’t know about tomorrow.

[Conversation, unclear]

Gregoire: so, Mother all the houses will be build the same way, the same house.

Shri Mataji: We could have a house of three, four varieties. Some could be bigger families, unclear] some for other family. And accordingly they said, it will start at five thousand rupees to ten thousand rupees. That’s what they told Me.

Gregoire: Very cheap.

Shri Mataji: But those will be mud houses. [Unclear]. And they will need maintenance every year. About five hundred to thousand rupees per year at the most.

Shri Mataji: How much in dollars?

Sahaja Yogi: Fifty dollars. Five hundred rupees Mother is fifty dollars.

Gregoire: Mother, I think You should use the same system as the Queen of England. There should be a big mark in front of your house when you come, there is your personal flag. You should Yourself suggest what will be the symbol on your flag. And when You are not there, we would take the flag down. And then the flag would be vibrated and would vibrate the whole area.

[Laughter]

Marie: But then everybody will know that Mother is there and She will not have a minute of peace [laughter].

Sahaja Yogini: The flag should be there all the time.

Shri Mataji: It’s surprising, in my childhood, I had written a poem which was, I don’t know where it sprouted, but it was, [Hindi]: means, “on the banks of Nira”. Imagine this Nira, in my family, they called Me by short name Nira, you see. So, this river has the same name as Nira. Just imagine, in my childhood, I’ve written this poem.

Means ‘Marie’, and Nira means “water”. And that’s what it is, I mean, I think, and apart from that, my gotra, my father’s gotra is Shandilya. So, that guru, Shandilya, had his ashram just there- that’s the place of Shandilya.

Gregoire: Who is Shandilya?

Shri Mataji: Shandilya was the, one of the gurus of the Realized souls in ancient times. Very ancient times. It was about fourteen, fifteen thousand, I think, at the time of Prahlada, when Narasimha [unsure]. Of Shalivahana dynasty. For the Shalivahanas, the guru was Shandilya.

So, he had an ashram there and it so happened that when Duba, no, Prahlad who lived near Peshawar and whose father was a devil, rakshasa, and the wife was a saintly lady. Indra went and enticed her [inaudible] and said that he’ll protect her, when she was pregnant. Believing him that he is a good man, she came with Indra to this Shandilya mudi’s place. It’s a mythology.

Gregoire: So, Indra is playing tricks, Mother? OK.

Shri Mataji: And that time, he brought her to this guru and he stayed there for the night. So, Shandilya told him that, “This child who she is bearing now, is the one who is responsible for incarnating Shri Vishnu as Narasimha. And you just don’t worry about her. Just leave her alone with me and you go away. And you don’t try to marry her, to save her, because she has to face the ordeal if Vishnu has to come”. Just she stayed over with Shandilya, the guru, till the child was of eight years of age. That time, Prahlada used to play in that area.

Then he was sent to his father who was a rakshasa, all prepared to fight him. And you know the story of Prahlada, I need not tell now. But then, about three hundred years back, about three hundred years back, they wanted to build a big temple of Narasimha. And the king, [unclear, one of these?] Peshwas from Pune, they built a beautiful temple of Narasimha. There is also an Adi Shakti, this thing, next to that.

But Vishnu appeared into his dreams.

Gregoire: Of the king?

Shri Mataji: Of the king. And then Prahlada followed him. In the end, he brought Prahlada before him, Vishnu. And he said that, “I have already made a statue of Narasimha with the sand on the river bank. If you go there, you will be able to find such and such thing, if you find out, there. And then, found that”. And then they brought it there, in the temple. And it is still there in the sand, for so many thousands of years. Very vibrated. On top of the temple, somewhere, God knows from where, there is water flowing, and it is coming down. Very surprising! Nobody has been able to locate the source of that water. It’s very vibrated, you see.

When I went to that temple, they discovered that it was Me, I, who was visiting, so, they arranged for us all kinds of things.

And across the river is this land. But why Dhumal’s brother-in-law wants to give it to Me, because it was taken over by government as surplus land. And suddenly after his realization, the government said that, “This is your land. By mistake, we have taken”.

This is the history that in India your land, if they take it, they don’t return, even this much. So, he was amazed how he got the land free, I mean back. So, he started giving us these twenty-five acres of land. But then, when I gave it to our Trust, you see, the Trust people were rather hard on him, I must say. But he is willing to give it to Me, so doesn’t matter. All right?

Gregoire: Yes.

[Laughter]

Shri Mataji: Now there are three more lands, you see, offered in Delhi. Delhi people have got money to buy those. So, that’s not yet a headache.

Sahaja Yogi: May it never be a headache, Mother.

Shri Mataji: What?

Sahaja Yogi: May it never be a headache.

Sahaja Yogini: Could we go there for someone, for instance with our children.

Shri Mataji: Of course! Why not?

Sahaja Yogini: [Unclear]

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no. You see, Bombay ashram, we built for you people only. I am not going to allow Bombay people to stay there. No, not that.

Marie: Can we work there?

Gregoire: Will You stay there?

Shri Mataji: No, Gregoire. I don’t know where I’ll be. But I’ll be staying all over [unclear, one place here, and one place there, and one place there?]. Well, I can’t stay in one place, but I’ll be moving about. But at least in Bombay, three months. In one of the ashrams, three months, could be. In one year, three months I would be in one of the ashrams. And the rest of the time, if I am still moving about, I’ll have to come to Switzerland.

[Laughter]

Shri Mataji: Are we not going to have an ashram in Switzerland also?

Sahaja Yogi: Mother, one ashram in Switzerland will cost as much as all ashrams in India.

[Laughter]

Shri Mataji: Just start on rent. Just start it on rent, you see. Take a small place somewhere, and rent. And all of you can stay there paying the rent of the house. That’s how we start. Then we might get an ashram as they got it in France.

Gregoire: Everything is possible.

Shri Mataji: Just desire and you’ll have it.

Sahaja Yogi: Yes.

Marie: Mother, we are going to need another ashram.

Shri Mataji: So see now, with the desire, you’ll have another one. In London C.P. may give me money to buy an ashram. Because suddenly we found out that we can have a property in England, for seven many years, [unsure]. So, it could be. English are very fortunate.

Gregoire: It is a nice country to have an ashram Mother.

Shri Mataji: But they are very fortunate also. They have such a big Nightingale Lane, have you seen that?

Gregoire: Yes, in London.

Shri Mataji: They are very fortunate. They had big, big hotels to live in. All for Me. All for Me. Now they have a Nightingale Lane and God knows what there are going to have next. Maybe [unclear] small palace or something. 

Sahaja Yogi: Buckingham Palace?

Shri Mataji: God knows. Buckingham Palace could be good.

[Laughter]

Gregoire: Not very nice Mother.

Marie: No.

Shri Mataji: Our Brighton people have got an ashram over there, they bought it. You know that?

Sahaja Yogi: [Inaudible]. It’s absolutely beautiful. Vibrations are splendid there.

Shri Mataji: See.

Gregoire: So, Mother, we need an ashram in Rome and in Switzerland.

Marie: And in New York.

Shri Mataji: [Inaudible]. But now, Rome is [unclear].

[Unclear conversation between Sahaja Yogis]