“First understand vibrations clearly,” Shri Ganesha puja, Auckland (New Zealand), 16th May 1987

But some of them are very good and some of them are very nice, mild people. 

Yogi: The tribes in Maharashtra have become very good now. Very good.

Mother: (Marathi)

Yogi: Some of the hills are in Maharashtra, near Amravati. But it is connected. Amravati, Vashi.

Mother: Pan Marathi boltat te log? (Marathi: But do those people speak Marathi?)

Yogi: Nahi tenche logon nahi boltat. (Marathi: No those people don’t speak.)

Mother: Ho? (Really?)

Yogi: Jasta Marati. (Only Marathi.)

Mother: Ani Maori chi bhasha? (Marathi: And Maori language?)

Yogi: What’s the language of Maoris?

Yogini: Well, we just call it Maori.

Mother: I have a dictionary of these Maori people. Then we’ll consult it. We’ll take a dictionary from here. This one is a dictionary, to see if they speak the same one.

Yogini: Ephrom, he’s doing work in Andra Pradesh.

Mother: Ephrom? Is he working on Maoris?

Yogini: No he hasn’t.

Mother: You should find out, then we can tell him this connection.

Yogi: There are some words in Maori, Mother, which are very similar to Sanskrit words.

Mother: I beg your pardon?

Yogi: There are some words in Maori, that are similar to Sanskrit words.

Mother: Similar to Indians? He’s saying there’s actually, there’s one tribe called ‘Maori’ in Maharashtra.

Yogi: In existence.

Mother: How things are discovered eh?

When I went to Greece, I was surprised that they have got Athena there, Athena, is the Primordial Mother. That’s why it’s called Athens. The Primordial Mother. But when I went to the museum I saw there was one Athena and three other Godesses. So I asked the curator, I said, “Why do you have these three Godesses here?” He said that, “You see, we used to believe that there’s only one Goddess, that’s the only Goddess that acts. But then we discovered from Indians that She takes three forms afterwards. She’s the Primal Mother but there are three forms which act.” So then they accepted that and they have put this. It’s surprising. So many things like that in Athens I discovered. In Athens they have a temple of the Goddess, nobody can enter in. They said there’s a child God which is guarding the temple of the Goddess and nobody can enter in. And the steps, it was a very long thing, I mean very, very stretched out. But the step to that were three and a half. Three big steps and a half step. The lower one was the half. And I said, “What is this three and a half steps?” He said, “They slowly curve, very slowly. You cannot see. The curvature is so slow that you cannot see. But if you make the whole curvature, then it can encompass the whole world.” Three and a half. Now if there’s a Kundalini it has three and a half. And I went to this place called Delphi. It’s a place they say ‘Oracle of Delphi’ [because] anything said it was to be absolutely correct. 

So I used to always tell them that Europe is the Nabhi, Nabhi of the whole universe. So when I went there they said, “This mound is the navel of the whole world.” I was surprised. And the vibrations were coming out of that mound. And there were vibrations coming from the back, so I turned round and I saw there’s a Shri Ganesha sitting there, nicely, in stone. Not carved, nothing. But in the form of Shri Ganesha. And I was surprised at it, that Shri Ganesha was sitting there. But then Gregoire went and got a photograph of that. It’s very surprising.

Alright. This was because coral is the stone of your place, coral. That’s why I wanted to take something in coral.

Rustom: It can be given as a present for the puja.

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. Nothing of the kind. Why to give in puja? No, no. Not in puja, not. Nothing. No, no. This is not a puja present. No. this I’m going to pay for. Why do unnecessarily? He bag kiti sundar ahe! (Marathi: look how beautiful it is!). Is a beautiful piece in coral. See this one, is. Isn’t it nice? It’s very beautifully done.

Rustom: Aap denenge Shri Mataji? (Hindi: shall we give you Shri Mataji?)

Shri Mataji: It’s really beautiful. But no present business.

Rustom: I cannot argue Shri Mataji. I have to [give].

Shri Mataji: Ha? I mean this is, this is not any, particular type of, this is just for the country.

Rustom: Sab har puja me dete Shri Mataji. (Hindi: in every puja we give gifts Shri Mataji)

Shri Mataji: Country me dete. Sari denerena log. (Hindi: A sari will be given)

Shri Mataji: It’s a beautiful piece I must say. It’s a very beautiful piece isn’t it? The other way around. Come here, put it. This is the basket!

Rustom: Acha (OK) I’ll change it round Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: You put the basket upside down. Like Sahaj Yoga is the starting from the top [to the] bottom. Like that. I saw that in that, even in the glass I saw that! It’s a beautiful piece.

Rustom: We have to take another photo. Shuru kar? (Hindi: should we  start?)

Shri Mataji: You must get some wonderful pictures. You had such beautiful ones. She was the first to get them. Then now we have many. But she was the first to hit it you see. It’s very remarkable. (Laughing)

Shri Mataji: So you can wash with the, that, Ganesha.

To pehele tum Atharva Sheersh. Hai tumhare pass? (Hindi: First Atharva Sheersha. Have you got it with you?)

Rustom: Hai, nah, hamare pass. (Hindi: I have got it with me)

Shri Mataji: He has got it in English language.

Rustom: Sanskrut me hai. (It’s in Sanskrit).

Shri Mataji: But he’ll have to translate also.

Rustom: Pehele Sanskrut me, phir us ke bad English. (Hindi: first in Sanaskrit then in English)

Shri Mataji: Sanskrut [phir] me kaunsi bhasha me? (Hindi: Sanskrit then in which language?)

Rustom: Ganesha Atharva Sheersha.

Shri Mataj: Nahi, ‘kaunsi’. Roman li bhi me? (Hindi: No, ‘which’. Is it written in Roman script?)

Rustom: Roman.

Shri Mataji: Tu kar sakte. (Then you can read it.)

Oh sorry. What is there?

Rustom: A Ganesha.

Shri Mataji: He’s just there!

Now first, I’ll talk to them for five minutes then he’ll wash me.

Nahi, nahi. Pehele bolenge phir us ke bad (Hindi: No, no. First I’ll speak to them, then after that.)

Yogi: It’s not amplified at all.

Shri Mataji: No, it’s alright.

So, I think it was, very nice that I could come to New Zealand. You should not feel depressed or unhappy that the programme started with a big bang and then it subsided in its coming up and all that. This is a common thing, because it is a living process. In every living process the thing starts with a very small thing and then it grows according to the weight that one can, bear. You see the little tree, or when it was just a sampling, it had to fight a lot to come up. And when it came up then also it would not bear fruits. It would only bear two leaves to open out because the stalk was not so powerful to hold the whole thing. 

So when your Sahaj Yogis will be more, and ready, then you’ll get more people and more people. But one should not expect too much of quantity. What we need is quality. If we try for quantity then there would be a problem. Because [with more] quantity, the quality will go down. 

So in the beginning, when it is the foundation, it is very important to have good quality. As you see in a house, in the foundation we always put very heavy stones which can bear the whole structure. In the same way, in the beginning of Sahaj Yoga, we have to put very solid people to work it out. Unless and until they are of a very solid nature, they are thrown out. That’s why Christ has said, first would be the last. Because so many people come for the first time and may just get lost because they are no good. They have to bear the structure. They cannot be ordinary Sahaj Yogis.

Now, we have many qualities to make it really, very, very strong and also to make it bearing. First of all a Sahaj Yogi which is in the foundation doesn’t show off. He bears, he holds. He is actually the adhara, as they say, the support; the complete support of Sahaj Yoga in a country. 

So the first few who come to the Sahaj Yoga are very, very important people. And an intensive work has to be done on them. And they have to work out also intensively. Because the first ones, if they are weak, the whole thing topples down. So by some mistake some weak persons may join you, then the whole thing will topple down. Again you’ll have to raise it. It’s like another resurrection. Then again you have to see that you don’t have weak people there. Then you have to build them up in such a manner that they grow properly to the size that can bear the whole structure.

Later on, of course, you will be surprised, the structure grows very fast. Like in Australia you know we started in a very, very, poor way, to begin with. And the people who really started are out of Sahaj Yoga, absolutely out. And the rest of them, out of them also, those who were really solid people could form the foundation of Sahaj Yoga.

So, one has to be careful, as to understand, that what we need now is quality, not the quantity. 

If you have too many people around your heads, you won’t be able to manage them at all. But if you have few good people you should be thankful. That’s why, if there is no publicity that has come or there are small number of people you should be very satisfied. Not to feel sad about it, that, “See now, Sahaj Yoga is not spreading.” It’s not the spreading that is important now, it’s the deeper embedment that is important. And for that we need really solid people for Sahaj Yoga.

So, you are the first few people here who are going to form the foundation of New Zealand’s Sahaj Yoga. Maybe one day it might be a very, very big structure. Doesn’t matter. Maybe you might be taking a role of a foundation which doesn’t show off, but your names will be written in golden letters that: such people started Sahaj Yoga. Because it’s a big struggle in the beginning to implement Sahaj Yoga.

Now I have seen that people, who are false spread very fast; very fast. You’ll hear their names everywhere. Suddenly you see it’s all going everywhere. And you’ll be surprised that they are in the market already. The reason is that it’s not a living process, it’s just Plastics. Plastic flower you can produce in one day thousands. But to produce one flower, on a tree, first flower, is so difficult. Then [come a] few flowers, then the blossom time comes. It’s not, that suddenly you get many flowers.

So one has to understand that in the beginning of anything there are difficulties and there are problems. Funny people will come in, they’ll start doubting, they’ll go out. Then some more will come, they will get into it, they will do this, and they’ll get out.

So there are two forces always working in Sahaj Yoga: one is the centripetal, another is centrifugal. 

By one force, people are attracted towards to Sahaj Yoga, because they know it’s the truth. And this is the end of their seeking, and this, they have to have. Because they, find out through their pure intelligence that this is the way.

Now there are people who just try to test, like guru shopping. So they think, “Let us go. This shop is there. They don’t charge you anything. Let’s get in here.” But they are the people who just do not stick-on sometimes. Or they have too many problems, from other gurus maybe. Or maybe they may stick-on. And some of them who stick-on, stick-on very well. 

So, we cannot say what immediately will happen. In a living process you can’t say, this tree, which side it will take: whether it will go straight or on the sides or it will move the other way. So, we cannot say that way. But we can say one thing, that, at least from my experience, I feel that in the beginning, whatever starts in a small way, in a struggling way, really is embedding itself nicely into the Mother Earth. And is a very good sign, because that’s the way, it always works out better. Whatever is frivolous, or whatever is cheapish, or which spreads out without much difficulties is of no use. It’s like a grass – anybody can take it away. 

So the embedment and all that, has to go inside. As you are shaking it nicely to go inside. And that’s what it is, where you should be very happy, that it is working out that way.

Somebody has come? Let him come in. Come along now! Yes.

So the beginning of Sahaj Yoga may look to be little shaky, may look to be little feeble but it is not: it is getting stronger and stronger, and it is getting embedded into the Mother Earth. And that is what is the test of you being the real seekers, you being the people who want truth; who do not want a big show, a big community sitting there all going mad with some sort of a shouting, screaming and nonsense.

As it is you know, Sahaj Yoga, is a living process. And it grows both ways: upwards and downwards. In the beginning it grows more downwards. And in the downwards process, we have to depend on our vibrations very much. 

We must all the time remember that we are realised-souls, that we have got vibrations. This is the way we have to judge. This is the way we have to understand. The vibration is the only way that we’ll know others; not by something [like] you will feel that the person looks very sweet and nice and a snake may come out of that person. 

So best is, to judge a person through vibrations. Judge everything through vibrations, not through your own understanding or superficial methods of judging others. 

Now, there are also so many conditionings we have got, by which we judge others. And these conditionings can also bias our judgment. So best way is to see the vibrations. Through vibrations you will have the real knowledge about what is happening.

Now many people, in the beginning, also start misguiding. So best is to develop your vibrations. For that you have to grow inward first of all. If you grow inward, deeply, then what will happen is that outward growth will be very solid and would be exact. You won’t have any problems with that. But if you do not grow inward, if you do not meditate and pay attention to it… 

And I would say, it is more the dedication that you have, that works out so well that you grow upward so well. I mean you can give a speech whenever you want about Sahaj Yoga, you can give Realisation to people whenever you want, you can cure people whenever you want, but first there should be a depth in you. If you have not achieved that, you just start superficially doing something. Then maybe you are hit or maybe you are in trouble or maybe you may start doubting yourself; maybe Sahaj Yoga too. 

So the first thing is for us to grow deeply.

And while we are growing deeply, we have to also grow in such a manner that we understand our vibrations clearly.

Now see a root of a little plant has a got a very small little cell at the base of it. And the plant doesn’t know anything as much as that little cell knows, because it is going inside by its own intelligence, its own vibrations. Now if it finds a stone it doesn’t go and quarrel. So don’t fight with the people who are stonies. Just don’t argue with them. You cannot make them understand. It’s not possible. They have to be seekers and soft like the soft clay through which this little cell goes, penetrates. Then it finds, supposing, it finds a big stone. Then what, it goes round and round and round. So gives it a bandhan nicely! And goes down. Later on when it becomes a tree, he uses the stone for its support. So in the same way, you can go round and round and round somebody like that. But giving just bandhan without saying anything – in your heart. Not saying, arguing with him anything. Because you’ll break your head, but he will never be alright. So best is not to argue with him. But just give him bandhan in your heart and somehow bind it. So that later on he will become Sahaj Yogi. But [meanwhile] will be a big support to us, because he’s such a stone.

Just now, use soft people, people who are easy people, people who are seekers, who are not so complicated.

And you cannot argue it out. Sahaj Yoga cannot be argued out, cannot be explained to, only thing [is] you have to get it. And if they don’t get it, you cannot argue it out, “Oh this is this, this is this.” Like, one reporter was asking me, “Why is it I’m not getting Realisation?” And I couldn’t tell him that he was such an egoist, I couldn’t tell him that, so I said, “Maybe this, maybe that.” You see, I was avoiding the topic! There is no use telling him, “You are a big egoist. How can you get your Realisation?” Because if I tell him like that, then he would be just off, absolutely, and he would be against Sahaj Yoga completely. So we have to use also, tactfully, a method by which we do not hurt others, but try to be nice and gentle, so they like at least your outer appearance that: they are very gentle people, they are very good people and all that.

Now, in Sahaj Yoga also there’s a temptation you might have, because you suddenly get  a lot of money sometimes, suddenly get a big position, suddenly, also you might get a very, rare, dynamic gifts: like you can become great artist, you can become a great poet, something might happen to you suddenly; you get a public speaking gifts or anything like that. But these are all temptations and one should not fall into it. Of course you must use them for Sahaj Yoga, is alright. But you should not fall into it and start thinking, “I’m something great!” If that is done, then there’s a big problem because such a thing gets a person completely out of Sahaj Yoga and he gets also punished, in a way. Maybe he loses his powers. So it’s best to keep to your Sahaj Yoga meditation, keep to your own understanding. Know yourself, that is the best way. And not to be diverted by all these temptations. But the same can be used for Sahaj Yoga. If that is used for Sahaj Yoga, there is nothing wrong. Because these gifts are given to you, not to tempt you but for using for Sahaj Yoga.

For example, she got my photograph with the light on my head. That means there’s something happened between her and the light. Because how did I get that light upon my head, is a problem to be understood, very simply [like this], that the Vishnumaya is the Goddess for light, for electricity, and if She wants She can turn it into any angle and can put a subtle meaning to her photograph. Now people have taken photographs of the clouds and they found me there, absolutely there. People believe it or not but it is so. Two photographs they saw like that. And normally we don’t take photographs of the clouds. But it showed in such a way that they first saw a very, luminous, cluster of a cloud. And then it expanded and started looking like a Ganesha. So, their attention was attracted. Then, strings of lights started flowing on both the sides, and they found two clusters. So they took photos of these two clusters. And when they developed it, they found my photographs, two photographs of mine were there. One was even with the nose thing, when I was wearing it, means very latest ones! And another one where I look more like a Red Indian face, that kind, coming out of the thing. It’s clearly, very clearly you can see it. So that’s how they have taken it. And it’s in the Bible, that you will know the Holy Ghost, with the forms of the clouds. Its written down. So this is how it is verified. But how many people are going to believe it? Very few. Very few people are going to believe that this is natural. They’ll think, “Oh, it’s all made up and done up and all that!” Because even if the nose ring is showing, it’s too much.

Now this Vishnumaya works that way. There are so many other Deities who work out something in a different way. But whatever it is, they are all for your construction, for your building up as a good Sahaj Yogi.

So the inner movement is very important in Sahaj Yoga. 

I am very happy to know that you people are gathering here for meditation and you are listening to my tapes and are growing up well. And I was very happy to see the way you are growing. And keep your steady growth, then you’ll become great Sahaj Yogis. 

I am sure one day New Zealand or Australia may become the leader of all the world to follow spirituality. Because India is, of course, I must say India is spiritually very developed but they are not leaders, I think. So far I have not seen much leaders coming out of India. But once the leaders start coming out of India we can say [that] then the second position should be given to Australia and New Zealand and there will be great people coming out of Australia and New Zealand, no doubt about it. Because the root part may be in India, the foundation part may be from India, but the tree part will be from the West. And that is how the East and West is going to complete the tree of Sahaj Yoga: blossoming and giving fruits.

May God bless you all!

(After puja conversation from 1 hr 52 mins)

May God bless you all!

The Kundalini is just there, she’s perfectly alright. Everybody’s is in perfect condition.

May God bless you!

Brian Bell: Now is the traditional time for asking Shri Ganesha, as He lives in Shri Mother, for a special boon. I think if we all ask a special boon in our hearts…

Shri Mataji: Alright. Ask a special boon. Close your eyes and ask for a special boon.

Brian Bell: Shri Mataji, a little gift from your New Zealand  children.

Shri Mataji: This is a shawl made in New Zealand? And the wool is also? Thank you very much! It’s beautiful. Thank you. Thank you very much.

(Mother shows the jewellery on her arm from the puja) Yeh dekho nah! Itna sundar (Look at this! So beautiful). Who bought all these things for you?

Brian Bell: Patricia. Where is Patricia.

Yogini: She’s cooking.

Yogi: She’s cooking you lunch Mother.

Shri Mataji: Oh, I see.

Brian Bell: But she was our representative in India this year.

Shri Mataji: But, with whom did she go? Must be ???.

Yogini: Charles and Mr. Prudhan.

Shri Mataji: Where?

Yogini: In Bombay.

Shri Mataji: Mr.?

Yogini: Prudhan. Is it Mr. Prudhan?

Shri Mataji: Pudan?

Yogi: Mr. Pradhan.

Shri Mataji: Pradhan, Pradhan. I see! Yes, it’s very nice, isn’t it? Very delicate stuff. Pradhan is another bhakti gamya fellow! 

(Mother inspects the pallu of the puja sari) Wah! It’s such a beautiful sari, I must say. Now, he was saying that there’s going to be puja. I said I don’t know if there was a sari or not.

Brian Bell: We were in preparation. This is Patricia who bought them Mother.

Shri Mataji: Thank you. You went with Pradhan to get that?

Yogi: Charles and Mr. Pradan? And the Sari?

Shri Mataji: Sari of course I bought it and kept it, you see, to be given. You see, they give you a very good one I must say. It’s very beautiful this one is. It’s a very beautiful sari. It’s real, real silver and real thing. It’s a very good one. And the colour is beautiful also, isn’t it.

Brian Bell: The blue here is almost the blue here on the other side.

Shri Mataji: They all select it and give it to different countries. Fourteen countries they gave. They must have given her this one. It was given in Ganapatipule was that?

Patricia: No this one we bought just before we left Bombay.

Brian Bell: Patricia and two Australians bought this in Bombay just before leaving.

Shri Mataji: You bought it? They didn’t give you?

Patricia: No.

Shri Mataji: I’m surprised because they were supposed to give. Funny. Maybe they might not have bought for Australians, you see. Must be for…but for Australia also they bought.

Patricia: We just bought one for New Zealand.

Shri Mataji: This one was bought, not for Australia. Ah so only you did. They had excluded you from those lists. I don’t know. But such a beautiful one! Very beautiful. Better than the Australian! (Laughter) Not, it’s much better.  That’s very beautiful! Because I bought those in a lot, you see, so they came out cheaper. And this one they must have gone and bought it themselves.

Brian Bell: Patricia was there. I mean it was Patricia’s ch0ice really. I mean they made suggestions but it was Patricia’s choice.

Shri Mataji: Good. It’s good. Excellent. Also your luck is good to get such a nice one, isn’t it. Even if you want, you don’t [always] get what you want! What is the colour, of your flag?

Brian Bell: It’s, well, it’s got a Union Jack in the corner, and then it’s blue, and it has the four stars of the Southern Cross on it.

Shri Mataji: Oh I see.

Yogi: So it’s, it’s almost, is it as dark as that?  It almost is, isn’t it. It’s that, sort of colour.

Shri Mataji: Blue. But Union Jack is still hanging?

Brian Bell: Yes, I’m afraid we still have the Union Jack in the corner. Australia has the same stars but they have five. They have the Southern Cross’s is five stars. And ours in New Zealand is four. 

(Somebody hands a small badge of the New Zealand flag to Brian who passes it to Shri Mataji to inspect.)

Brian Bell: Ha! Thank you.

Shri Mataji: Ah, Union Jack. And this is four. The same deep colour you have [on the puja sari]. The red you have, also there; very much near the red. So because of commonwealth countries. We are not, no more, commonwealth now. We were. We are not. No more. We are not, anymore, commonwealth. We used to be. [Hindi]. I don’t know, are we not yet?

Rustom: We still are Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: We still, we are still, is that? We are a commonwealth country, still. But we are not a dominion.

Brian Bell: No. It’s no longer and empire, it’s a collection of allies and friendly states. There is no sense of domination of one another.

Shri Mataji: No, no, no. So now this is the alliance part. So we don’t have alliance. So we don’t have alliance.

Brian Bell: Perhaps that’s the flag of the heart Mother, which is on the corner of many flags in the world.

Shri Mataji: Yes. Or of the Agyna. (Laughter) (Mother counts the lines on the British ‘Union Jack’ flag) But six is the Swadishthana.

Rustom: Aath hai Shri Mataji. (Hindi: there are eight). They have eight.

Shri Mataji: Aath ka? Ek, do, tin, char, panch, cheh, sat, aath. It’s correct! They have done the right thing because they are the heart. Unconsciously, they have done it you see. But so beautiful it is.

Brian Bell: The four stars are never seen in the northern hemisphere. It’s a cross of four starss or five stars that only can be seen in the southern hemisphere.

Shri Mataji: But we saw it. We saw when they got married in Bordi. Yes! All the stars were there, and they saw the Southern Cross also. And all the Australians came and saw that and said, “This is the Southern Cross.” This was two years back. Or, when did you have the Bordi marriages? Three years back?

Yogis: Yes, three years back.

Shri Mataji: Three years back. And all the stars, there were twenty-eight marriages, twenty-seven marriages and twenty-seven akshatras. ‘Akshatra’ kya kahate? (Hindi: How do you say ‘akshatra’?)

Yogis & Mother (simultaneously): Constellations.

Shri Mataji: [Twenty-seven] constellations were there. One of them was this (Southern Cross). Heart ka catch aa raha hai (Hindi: Heart catch is coming) – You see, he’s talking about the heart. His (Brian’s) heart is catching. (Mother rubs her little finger on the left hand).

Brian Bell: Mother perhaps let…

Shri Mataji: I don’t know what’s happening in England. (Mother gives a bandhan for the Heart) What’s about Fiji, is there a news?

Brian Bell:  Fiji Island?

Shri Mataji: Ha (Yes)

Yogi: There are two governments functioning now.

Shri Mataji: Two governments now?

Yogi: One represented by the Governor General, the other by the army chief.

Shri Mataji: The same fellow the colonel?

Brian Bell: The colonel.

Shri Mataji: Not the…

Brian Bell: No not the brigadier. But the government general is standing firm, against him.

Shri Mataji: So now?

Yogi: He says that he has assumed executive powers.

Shri Mataji: How can he?

Yogi: And the, New Zealand and Australia are supporting the Governor General.

Shri Mataji: Supporting who?

Yogi: Governor general.

Shri Mataji: Governor general.

Yogi: They say that he is the rightful authority.

Shri Mataji: So he doesn’t accept this coup?

Yogi: No. In fact, it says, that there are some negotiations going on for a coalition government. A compromise!

Shri Mataji: But the people are still at large?

Yogi: They don’t know exactly.

Shri Mataji: No one knows where they are.

Yogi: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Funny thing happened!

Brian Bell: But not often in South Pacific, Mother. This is new to the South Pacific.

Shri Mataji: It’s heart. I hope England is alright. (Mother has been bandhaning and rubbing Her left little finger all this time).

Yogi: Almost all governments are supporting the Governor General.

Shri Mataji: I mean it’s very unconstitutional.

Yogi: He’s the representative of the Queen.

Shri Mataji: But as Rustom has said that, there are many incarnations of people: like according to him the Sindhis were, must have been camels! According to him the Parsees must have been hawks! Because the hawks go and eat the dead bodies. Now, according to him now, the English must have been what? Dogs or horses?

Rustom: Horses.

Shri Mataji: Horses. They must have been horses! (Laughing) But the Indians must have been cows, so they tolerate a lot of nonsense. Tolerance, Indian tolerance, is something really shameful. Sometimes you really get angry with them the way they are tolerant. Like, you see, English stayed in our country for three hundred years, isn’t it. And these people, who are not immigrants they went with the English to the South Africa and all these places. They had British passport for the last three, four generations, you see. And now once these countries became free, they had to go to England because they have no other passport. So they are still treated as immigrants, imagine! And they don’t mind. Because now they say that, “We, we cannot go to India, because we have no Indian passport. And why did we live our country? So we should suffer.” This is their solution they gave. Indians say that, “If we had not left our country, and had not gone to these countries out of just greed because they said we’ll make you farmers, and this.” They just took them like slaves, but they told lies that time. And these people went there. And when they went there they developed everything very well because they are very good farmers. Indians are very good farmers. So they developed the farms and everything. And the Africans didn’t know farming And there were very few English there to do farming. So because of that then. And also they had to have passports so they had British passports. Because passports were not needed in the long, in the olden times. Just they just went there. So they were given passport: when it came to the passports the British gave them the passports. So they have been living there for ages now, so they had to go to England. 

Now, when they have used them all these years, still, they are immigrants. Anywhere. You see, it is something, even in France they say that Indians are absolutely you go on pressing them hard, anything, they go on taking your pressures. So this is what it is. Then they have to pay for it also. Patience is there quality. And they forgive, they forgive so fast that, you will be amazed, she was telling me Hesta [Spiro], that before Realisation she had come to India, as three, four barristers who were visiting India. They were quite worried because they thought that British were rulers there, then they may be very adamant and all that. But when these people went there they held parties, just barristers, they looked after them. And then one day she said  that,  in the High Court they took us to the platforms and we had to speak. She said, “I was no speaker. I was quite worried.” And then they gave a holiday to the High Court the next day. This was too much for them to understand. She said, “We were amazed how these people had forgotten what we did to them all these years!” And they had just forgotten. It’s very forgiving they are.

So that is something. But there are certain bad things about them also nowadays. You see, I wish the corruption goes away from India. Corruption is too much. That’s also they are tolerant about: the corruption. They’ll say, “That’s the way. You give twenty-five rupees, doesn’t matter! That’s the custom. Let it be!” This is also due to too much of tolerance. Communism or anything cannot come in our country because they are so tolerant! In corruption they are so tolerant!

Rustom: Completely Shri Mataji! About everything.

Shri Mataji: You see they said that, “Now better give twenty-five rupees now Mother, what is there after all?” Fifty rupees, sixty rupees you have to pay, extra. Even my husband said so. Imagine! He said, “Now you’ve bought land, and they always troubled in India for land, all these collectors and all that. So you have you spend some money on them, otherwise won’t work out.” I said, “Did you do the same thing?” He said, “Our times were different but nowadays.” You have to shell out some money to them. And nobody asked nay money to me, what am I to do? He said the same thing, my brother.

Yogi: We get so many cases under the anti-corruption act, so many cases!  Fifty percent of…

Shri Mataji: And these are all, you see, these are all the things they have learnt, under the British rule and now they are still continuing. These are Indians or British?

Yogi: And the anti-corruption people need, another anti-corruption department for them! 

Shri Mataji: And it goes on like this. No, this kind of tolerance is not good, you see. In England if it happens one time, any one, they’ll have to resign.

Yogi: Yes. That’s true. Even in America I’m told in all these little matters they are very strict.

Shri Mataji: Smallest things! You see, England is that way, though they came in our country and they were different. But in their own country…Even there this Hastings. Wasn’t he?

Yogis: Warren.

Shri Mataji: Yeah, Warren Hastings. He was tried and he was arrested and he was…

Rustom: Impeached in parliament. Also [Robert] Clive they did it to him.

Shri Mataji: Clive also?

Rustom: Yes, Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: [For] whatever they did here (in India). Just imagine! So the people are not tolerant that way. They don’t tolerate any illegal things. That’s something good. People don’t tolerate. In India people tolerate. And these collectors and all that, then they become very powerful.

Yogi: Second set of rajas and maharajas.

Shri Mataji: Second set of rajas and maharajas. And they are public servants. They are servants of the public. But they are so rude and corruption rules. To pacify them people must give them money. Just to pacify them. And they’ll never be tried like Clive or Hastings, nothing!

Yogi: Sometimes the lower ones are tried.

Shri Mataji: Ha? Lower ones.

Yogi: Lower ones. The law is so defective. It’s very difficult to.

Shri Mataji: Very defective.

Yogi: It’s very difficult to expand the conviction.

Shri Mataji: You see, the trouble is now, if you put a case on a higher boss, he will tell the younger one, the lower one, that, “You take the blame.” He’ll take it. Taking the blame upon yourself is also one of the qualities of Indians. Might be somebody else’s, but they’ll say, “I have done it.” Alright. Sort of a martyrdom. If the public doesn’t do all that nonsense, I am sure corruption will go away. They’ll not stand up.

Brian Bell: Left sided thing.

Shri Mataji: I think they are still under slavery. They are frightened of these people I think.

Yogi: Feudal. Feudal. Feudal approach to everything.

Shri Mataji: People get frightened. In the villages and all that, an ordinary, sub-inspector can rule.

Yogi: The king of the place.

Shri Mataji: He’s the king, the sub-inspector. And the collector is Bhagwan! He’s God! 

You see, in India these, they must be corrected. You must bring them from very good families and things like that. Also if there’s a boy selected for Indian administrative service, which ultimately they become collector, he charges such a lot of dowry. He charges a dowry of lakhs and lakhs.

Yogi: His price increases.

Shri Mataji: Ha?

Yogi: His price in the marriage market increases.

Shri Mataji: It increases, yes. And on the slightest pretext they send away the girl.

Yogi: Or Kill her sometimes.

Shri Mataji: Ha?

Yogi: Or kill her. The bride.

Shri Mataji: They are burnt.

Yogi: Burnt!

Shri Mataji: Burnt. So when she was telling yesterday, I had to tell her that this is coming from this corruption.

Brian Bell: That’s all the on the left side. Corruption and self-destruction.

Shri Mataji: I mean, no the corruption is right sided. And it pushes people to the left. And they are a little bit frightened you know. Anybody coming to them: a police means too much! What to do to these people also? Individually they are very weak I must say, individually. And when they combine also, then politics start brewing up. When these all weak people combine and form an organisation or something, then there is three, four powerful people and they start politics: who will be the president, who will be this, who will be that. So that’s finished. Basically Indians must have their own power. That’s important. 

This vegetarianism also is responsible. If you are a vegetarian, you don’t have much power to fight, courage to fight.

Yogi: They can pull each other’s legs.

Shri Mataji: Pull all the time each other’s legs. That’s their job. That’s the only thing. All sly things they will do.

Yogi: There is a story about it. An exhibition in New York: from India they sent crabs as exhibits. International exhibition.

Shri Matai: [Hindi]

Yogi: Crabs, and, in an open vessel. And the people who were responsible for the exhibition, they got a little scared that these open crabs if they come out of the vessel, people who come may be scared. They said, “Don’t worry they are Indian crabs. If one climbs the other will pull his leg!” (Laughter)

Shri Mataji: That’s very, very common! All sly things they will do. They’ll cheat you in a small way, this, that, tell lies morning till evening. There are some people who must tell, a hundred lies, otherwise their mantras are not complete. You see, lies come out of fear also.

Rustom: Yes, Shri Mataji

Shri Mataji: You see, if you are frightened, then you have this lying business. If you are, not frightened, you don’t tell lies.

Rustom: Yes. What happens in these countries Shri Mataji is you get two counties. One dominating the other.

Shri Mataji: But, you see, what we have got, very few people dominating. These all these, administrative people and all that, they are dominating.

Yogi: And business men and things.

Shri Mataji: Business men or very few. The rest of them are such a big public, I mean, such a big community that they can always oust these people.

Yogi: that’s’ true Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: But they are so frightened of these few Johnnys!

Yogi: And in our country we have a law at least.

Shri Mataji: We have a law but they don’t even know the law.

Yogi: Yes.

Shri Mataji: It’s such a complicated law that you have to be a lawyer! Actually, I didn’t know the laws. My brother had to tell me that, “You are all right. You have done no wrong!” We just become a criminal in that country for doing nothing wrong.

Rustom: For just sitting down Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: I mean, just because you don’t know particular things, you know. And he told me these things, I am surprised how much I am in the law! On the contrary he said you took too much care for law. That’s why you are in trouble.

Yogi: If the police are harassing someone and taking a person to jail. And you, know that he’s being harassed, and now suddenly that he’s being taken to the jail, and you interfere, they will take you also. Even our lawyer said, “Why don’t you give about thousand rupees to this collector?” I said, “Thousand? To the collector?” Even, even the thing. And no, not at all. Now we have got all this land in India. Now we have to make it non-agriculture. For that you have to go to the collectors. Now I’m told take money in lakhs and lakhs of Rupees. Now, where do we have?

Brian Bell: Are those plans, moving forward Mother? For the Sahaj…

Shri Mataji: You see, that’s the main thing is the obstruction now. The land we have got. We have got it on the, what do you call? The registration. In every records it has come, everything is there. And, now we have also got plans and everything. But it has to made NA, that is non-agriculture. 

Now if you go and approach somebody there, I don’t know who is the collector. Whosoever is the collector, they say that, “You’ll have to give about ten lakhs of rupees or twelve lakhs.” Now, just imagine, where do we have so much money to waste. Otherwise the papers won’t move for years together. 

There are some fishermen and women who are realised now. They have got a land in Bombay. For the last twelve years, they have not been given that land, just the allotment. School is a non-agricultural thing, so we have to go and for NA. 

Now the new law has come just to help these collectors to collect money, that you cannot build anything near the Pune City, about eight kilometers, without talking the permission of the collector, make it any. Now the collector will take lot of money out of this. And also, just to prove the case, in my case specially, they published in a very responsible newspaper that this land was bought much later and was built now – I mean after the law has passed is all wrong – and that, this is for the Sahaj Yogis who are coming from abroad. I mean imagine!

Yogi: An Ashram. An Ashram for Sahaj Yogis.

Shri Mataji: Such liars. Such liars they are! It’s my husband’s hard earned money coming from bank to bank! And then to say that it is meant for Sahaj Yogis. So because it is meant for Sahaj Yogis you have to make it non-agriculture. That’s the trick. For that you have to go to the collector. But this land cannot be made non-agriculture because it’s called as the green belt. Such corruption! For a little piece of land who is going to give ten lakhs and twelve lakhs? Alright, now supposing you decide we’ll not give ten, twelve lakhs to the collector, we’ll take a built flat. So in the flat, supposing the building cost is fourty Rupees per square foot, they charge you three hundred rupees per square foot, the builders. So the builder and the collectors are hand in glove. I think one should write a nice novel on this.

Rustom: Satire. Satire. A play we should write. Novel, yes Shri Mataji. Collector is a good name to sit and collect all the bribes Shri Mataji!

Shri Mataji: I don’t know. You see at my husband’s time, of course they were all people with some sort of  crack in their heads. They would work day in and day out and never could think of taking any bribe, I mean no question. And they caught so many people who were taking bribes. So now, we should put the collectors in charge of people who are taking bribes, you see. But there’s income tax person who sees that. And this income tax fellow, he says that, “If you catch somebody red-handed, then we’ll go after him.” We should ask them how many people [of] these collectors have caught, taking bribes.

Brian Bell: There’ll be non I suppose.

Shri Mataji: For sure!

Brian Bell: Yes.

Shri Mataji: That’s the best way to remove the corruption. 

We can cannot give bribes and you cannot take bribes, it’s illegal. And these collectors are supposed to find out.

Rustom: But he finds out so that he takes bribe from the people he has found out Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: You see, he cannot, because once he starts doing that, then the people who are giving bribes will catch him, by the neck. You have to be very honest to do that. (Laughing) It’s terrible! That’s such a bad disease, I tell you. I don’t know when our country’s going to get over it. 

And what do they need bribe for? I just don’t know. I mean, there’s sufficient money, they get nowadays. In our times the pay was much less than nowadays. They get a big pension, everything. But there’s no end to greed.

Rustom: No. They want to buy a house here, build a house there.

Shri Mataji: What do they want to do? Nothing. They don’t want to live with their children. Most of these collectors they are very Westernised. Want to have their own house. For that a little house is alright. They also get a loan from the government for building a house. We built such a big house with the loan from the government only that time. Yes. The first house I built with the loan from the government. And LIC  also gives loan. I mean, it’s possible, even if they want to build a house. There’s no need for them to be dishonest, actually.

Rustom: It is a way of giving trouble to the simple people Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: Ah?

Yogi: It is a way of giving trouble to simple people.

Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s it, we have to many simple people.

Rustom: It’s almost rakshasik.

Shri Mataji: You see, they are all rakshasas. Nothing but rakshasas.

Yogi: that’s right. They are all rakshasas.

Shri Mataji: (Mother looks down at Her feet) You see, the feet are so white. Ho nah? Ekdum white ho gaya! (Hindi: No? They’ve become absolutely white)  Nahi, the chakras are so white! 

Vibrations are all flowing. Left Agnya pe aa raha hai (Hindi: Vibrations coming on Left Agyna). You see, if there is too much then, just they go sideways and

Bahut safed aa gaya hai (Hindi: It has become so white).

Rustom: Bahut safed (Hindi: Very white) White like snow!

Shri Mataji: So the Himalayas go to my feet! What to do! Take out this one (the silver anklets): you keep it for next time, alright? All these things. You kept the mangal sutra also? What a nice shawl they have given me as a present!

Rustom: It’s beautiful thing.

Shri Mataji: That’s a beautiful thing, you see.

Rustom: You were looking for one like this yesterday.

Shri Mataji: Yes, I was looking for one like that. And from Australia I bought two. But that’s rather too big. And this is very nice.

Rustom: Shall we wash your feet or badme (Hindi: later)?

Shri Mataji: Wash kar lo. Hai bhi acha (Wash. This is also good) In that water, same water?

It’s better to wash it. Then you have not touched that water? 

Rustom: No, they can drink it, they can…

Shri Mataji: No, then you keep it. No, not for drinking. You can use it, but more for vibrations.

You can take that out and we’ll have another one. No no, you can take that water into something and preserve it. Some glass is better.

Brian Bell: There is glass…

Shri Mataji: It won’t be in that one. It’s beautiful. Heart is now better.

Rustom: Much better Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: Much better. It so much was catching.

Rustom: Can you pass me that jug?

Shri Mataji: These flowers. Towel us ke neeche (Hindi: Towel underneath it)

Rustom: Have you got some water? Is water coming is it? And soap. And soap.

Shri Mataji: This might be an old piece. (Looking at the coral necklace) 

Rustom: Yes Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: It might have been some artist living here, this side. Very beautiful.

Brian Bell: There are a lot of craft people in New Zealand. And becoming more and more traditional.

Shri Mataji: Traditional yes, they should be traditional not, taking to, you see. Alright some people can have, like, I like that bark of the thing they had taken out and covered, it was nice idea from the palm tree, that was a nice idea and many things. But, like the one we saw, which was a carved wooden piece. Yes, that one was very expensive. I think that in India you can get it much cheaper, much cheaper.

Brian Bell: Very very expensive and I don’t understand why.

Shri Mataji: And done more traditionally.

Brian Bell: But there is some very fine pottery and fine china being made here now.

Shri Mataji: China?

Yogi: Very beautiful.

Shri Mataji: Oh I saw some china yes. It’s very beautiful. But didn’t find any set or something. I did find some good china, yes. Made with hand. Like my cup and my that thing, yes. That’s beautiful. But I don’t know where they picked it up because I have never seen this anywhere else, that kind of china, anywhere else, but in here. 

I can’t even lock it, I’m so hopeless. Can you lock for me? I’m so bad at it. There’s a latch. 

Is that Chinese? It looks like. The work is beautiful. You see, show to everyone. It’s very delicate work. [It’s made] in one stone, that is, in one coral. 

(Mother is telling Rustom about a pain on her toes and Rustom is rubbing Her toes)

(Hindi).

Rustom: This one?

Shri Mataji: No, no. On the. No not Nabhi.

Rustom: Vishuddhi?

Shri Mataji: Is pe hai (Hindi: It’s on this one). 

Even now it was paining. 

Rustom: Keha pe Shri Mataji? (Hindi: where is it hurting Shri Mataji?)

Shri Mataji: Upar te karo. Dekho. Waha se upar le jao. (Hindi: Lift it. Look. From there lift it) It pains there.

Rustom: Ah. At this point.

Shri Mataji: Vishuddhis are very bad!

Rustom: Actually it all became black.

Shri Mataji: Just imagine! The whole thing has become black.

Rustom: The moment I touched it became. It’s good thing it’s come out now Shri Mataji.

Shri Mataji: The black has come out of it.

Yogi: It’s Right Vishuddhi.

Shri Mataji: Right Vishuddhi is too much. People talk here too much to me. Right, left both. The nerve. Nerve that goes to the Left Vishuddhi, yes. Just rub it backwards please.

Rustom: This one.

Shri Mataji: But a little warm water would be better I think. Little warm. And bring it from the bathroom. 

And when she wears sari she really looks an Indian, so we must find out this Maori people in India! (Laughing) 

Isn’t it a piece of art? Really my eye caught this. It has vibrations that’s the main thing. Any piece of art has vibrations. It’s such a balanced piece. Utr nahi lagaya tak. (it’s not done yet) Abhi lagana chahiye (should be done now) Sab ko lagane chahiye (Everyone should put perfume)

Which one is this?

Rustom: Khus hai. (It’s khus perfume)

Shi Mataji: Imagine what a warm day!

That lady asked me, “Have you got something to do with this warm day?” I said, “Maybe.” I didn’t want to say! (Laughing). Hmm. Khus has started smelling. Good! 

White? Is it less now?

Rustom: Less.

Rustom: Should we put some salt in it, Mother? Shall I get some salt? 

Some more water please, warm water. Thank you.

Shri Mataji: So many miracles take place with these ornaments also. It so happened that, these people had collected some money to buy a Mangalsutra for me: “Oh God!” I said, “what sort of Mangalsutra you want?” He said, “Of diamonds,” you see. This is very expensive. So I said, “Now, I’ve got one why do want to have another one of diamonds?” So it was better, I was trying to tell them not to buy this. “No no no Mother Diamonds.” And when I went to the shop the price was so high so they just said, “Now what to do?” I said, “Now you buy one, which doesn’t have diamonds, but corals. Because after all, you are from the coral’s country.” So, they wanted to buy the coral one. 

Now, when we, said, “Alright buy this coral thing.” Suddenly I found a beautiful one with corals. So they bought. But it was very cheap. So now what to do the money was left out? So then, I suddenly found a beautiful coral design thing, with little little roses, a necklace and I think ear-tops or something, and, for the same price as that [money that] was left over. So I said, “Then buy this is alright now, if you want to complete the whole money.” They were surprised: they got such a beautiful piece. And the, shopkeeper said that this was bought by some lady in Italy but we couldn’t sell it. In India nobody bought this one and it’s still lying with us for some time. We didn’t know why it was not selling so now it’s nice you are buying it. So they give us for an exact price. So we bought that one. 

Now, you see, I brought it to Australia, because they were going to do the puja of Ganesha so I said alright. This is a Ganesha’s country and this is alright so I brought it here, and they gave it to me in a puja. But it was lost. We don’t know where we placed it. Nobody could locate it where it is gone and when I went it was not with me. I said alright, “Find it out later on. You can send it to England.” So they found it. They found it, and they sent it with somebody who came to Rome first, for the puja, on the Ganesha puja. The Ganesha puja was not here. Ganesha puja was there, you see. So she came to Rome for the puja. And then she brought this. So I said the artist who must have made it, you see, long time back, must have thought that it should be given to somebody like me and that, it should be on a Ganesha puja. So it came to Rome! Imagine of all the places. It is made in Rome. (Laughing) How at the right time it came there and I was surprised, and everybody was surprised – how it has come all the way, for Rome. And it’s Italian work, absolutely Italian work. So how things work out, you see. And they suggest so many things. 

They’re so surprised Italians. Mother how do You get this, how did You get this one in Australia? I said, “This I bought in India, for your information!” And then I took it to them and they gave me as present, and it was lost. So now it has come to Rome. I have never worn it.” Just imagine!

It’s very, very surprising how things work out: these, little little things. 

Chalo, idhar me jarasa, (इधर में जरासा) Vishuddhi ke ye side, Left ho. Aur jarasa, niche, aur niche. (Take it here, on the Vishuddhi side. Take it further, more underneath, more underneath).

Left Vishuddhi is too much in this country. I don’t know why they feel so guilty. What are they guilty about? What wrong have they done? They have never invaded any country, did they?

Brian Bell: On one level it’s a divided country Mother, in racial terms. There are barriers of a sort, between Pākehā and Maori and Islander.

Shri Mataji: They killed them?

Brian Bell: Well, there were wars of course, in the past: there were many wars. And the Pākehā had the, they’re now called land wars. There were actually wars. And British regiments. Regiments of British soldiers were brought here in the 1860s to fight the Maoris who wanted to retain their land, basically. And laws were setup to make it very easy for the Pākehā to take land. Now that has been a thorn in the flesh of Maori for over a hundred years now and there was a Treaty of Waitangi signed which was supposed to be a treaty of friendship between Queen Victoria as the representative of the Pākehā and the Maori chieftains. And this was to be mutually responsible: that the Pākehā would look after the broader issues if you like and would be responsible to the Maori people for peace and for welfare and so on. Well it never worked out that way and now quiet often see written round  on a sign that “The treaty is a sham” or “Waitangi betrayed”. So even now 147 years after the signing of it, it still something of acrimony and a contribution to distrust and guilt. There is quite a lot of guilt in the Pākehā and the Maori is building it up.

Shri Mataji: No, but what about the people who settled down here? Are they more in number or the Maori are?

Brian Bell: The Pākehā greatly outnumber the Maori. Greatly.

Shri Mataji: Pākehās are what?

Brian Bell: The whites.

Shri Mataji: Pākehās are the white.

Brian Bell: And there are…

Shri Mataji: Maori are greater in number.

Brian Bell: No. Whites.

Shri Mataji: So this has happened?

Yogi: They killed them.

Brian Bell: Yes. The Maori was being traditionally very closely connected to the land. The land has always had a spiritual significance. They felt a sense of belonging and being part of the land. The land is almost like a member of the family.

Shri Mataji: Earthly Mother.

Brian Bell: A very very close relationshop. So when hey were dispossessed, when the land was taken by force, there was a sense of…

Shri Mataji: Insecurity.

Brian Bell: Failure. Yes insecurity. A sense of loss. Which has really only now, nearly 150 years later, started to develop back again into some degree of pride and dignity and an attempt at a universal poise and honesty. So there is a lot of guilt on that level. Also.

Shri Mataji: Pākehās also have.

Yogi: Ah! Pākehās yes, more so than Maori. But there are very complex ones amongst the older Maoris. There is a sense of guilt in the sense of, “Why didn’t we start battling earlier?”

Shri Mataji: The fight then!

Brian Bell: And so on the younger people it’s arrogance. The biggest population. The prison population, for instance, the inmates of prison, the Maoris vastly outnumber the whites. The people who come up before the courts and so on. The unemployed, there is greater, much greater percentage of Maori amongst the unemployed. So this causes also dissatisfaction and sense of inadequacy and guilt. So both sides have a sense of…

Shri Matai: Guilt.

Brian Bell: Guilt.

Shri Mataji: Now, these people when they came to New Zealand, in the beginning, did they come as punishments or New Zealand also, or only to Australia. I mean when the English came.

Brian Bell: No, no there were no convicts sent to New Zealand at all.

Shri Mataji: So who were the people who were sent so many more than the Maoris here?

Brian Bell: Well, the original people who settled here where people who were sailors and whalers. They had their ships here in the harbours and they would go out and kill whales and seals, melt it down for oil and export it.

Shri Mataji: Oh I see.

Brian Bell: They were the first. A pretty rough mob. Then there were various groups who arrived in various ways. There was a man called Wakefield, Edward Gibbon Wakefield who actually eloped with a girl who was underage and he was a terrible…

Shri Mataji: Horrible.

Brian Bell: …he was in prison and so on. But he was responsible for two of the main settlements here in New Zealand. One in Wellington and one is Christchurch, and attempted a planned immigration so that there would be people with money, there would be people with professional talents, there would be people who are experienced and working the land, there would be carpenters. And so you brought here a whole society ready to serve each other on the land. In Wellington it didn’t work at all. But in Christchurch it worked better. Those are the two first main planned immigrations.

Shri Mataji: But how, he was in the government that man?

Brian Bell: No, it was private. It was done just with private money. You know, like, people paid for it. It was a profit making concern.

Shri Mataji: Only?

Brian Bell: It’s a privately mounted concern. People invested in it.

Shri Mataji: But why did they come here? The professionals and all that.

Brian Bell: To start a new life. I think there would be many reasons Mother. And one of the main contributions was married couples with children where the husband or wife married out of their class. Some, if they married for love rather than. So there was a you know like…

Shri Mataji: Class is mainly consciousness: lords and ladies ha.

Brian Bell: And they weren’t very happy primarily in England and so they came to New Zealand to start a new life. There were a lot of families like that. So there’s always been a strong desire in New Zealand to be egalitarian. Jack is good as his master is a strong belief.

Shri Mataji: But England is becoming like that now. I mean at least the language. The language has become so different, I mean, I don’t know. Even the lords and ladies have very bad language. I mean the way the speak, it’s slangy, full of puns and things like that. I mean, you just don’t understand how they speak. I just don’t understand. The language is very much ruined now. I mean nobody studies language nowadays, in England.

Rustom: Worse than that, if you properly they make fun of you, Mother.

Shri Mataji: That’s what they were telling me! If you speak properly they think you are trying to show off. Ha? That you are class, thing.

Rustom: Posh!

Shri Mataji: Posh. Posh is an abuse there. To me it is a big problem, you see. These French girls told me that they learnt English through my tapes. I was amazed, because I don’t know how to speak to English themselves, nowadays! (Laughing)

In Sahaj Yoga they are not speaking like that. Sahaj Yogis don’t speak [like that], English Sahaj Yogis. But as soon as you go out in a shop or anything, specially you are in Oxted, I didn’t know what to do.

Chalo, kana wana khane? (should we eat?) Sabko prasad to baad do. (Give everyone prasad after) Rustom ke puje bahut lambi chalti! khatam hone wale hai. (Hindi: Rustom’s pujas go on so long.  It’s about to end now.)

This puja is on and on! (Laughing) 

Alright. So. 

Sabko lagaya do. (Everyone should put some [perfume]) But it’s not real one. 

Rustom: Not pure. Put on everyone’s wrists. 

Shri Mataji: Not such a good one.

Rustom: Sabko prasad denge (Give everyone prasad)

Shri Mataji: (Someone offers sweet prasad to Mother) I’m not supposed to eat sweets.  But Prasad Rupena. This is very nice. This is made from what?

Brian Bell: Margaret? 

Shri Mataji: Hum?

Brian Bell: Margaret made it.

Shri Mataji: From what?

Margaret: Apricots and…

Shri Mataji: Apricot?

Margaret: And nuts and…

Shri Mataji: In India apricots are so expensive. You can’t use them like this. Really. From raw or the dry ones?

Margaret: Raw ones. Dry ones.

Shri Mataji: Raw ones?

Brian Bell: Dried ones, dried ones.

Shri Mataji:  Wonderful. We too make somethings, out of this in India. Dried. But this would be quite expensive in India. All nuts are expensive in India, like almonds.

Yogi: They are expensive here too Mother.

Shri Mataji: Here too?

Margaret: And apricots are expensive here too, dried apricots are expensive.

Shri Mataji: Apricots are expensive here?

Margaret: The dried ones. Yes.

Shri Mataji: Are they? But apricots you get quite a lot.

Margaret: Fresh apricots are fine but I don’t whether they dry them.

Yogini: Yes, they do.

Shri Mataji: Why dry one so expensive?

Yogini: The Australian and Turkish ones are expensive.

Yogi: The Turkish ones are cheap.

Shri Mataji: Australians have lots of apricots.

Yogi: The Australian ones are the best one you can get here.

Yogini: Your lunch is ready. Would you like to have your lunch here?

Shri Mataji: No I’ll go there (to the dining table).

(Mother does namaste.)

Beautiful shawl!! Such a thing I wanted. Thank you.

Nice puja. Wonderful!