Seminar Day 1, Questions and Answers, Advice to Realised Souls

Bordi (India)

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Advice to Realised Souls, Bordi (India), 26 January 1977.

I’ll try to cover most of the points that you have asked but I must say that I was very happy to hear most of the questions because that shows that your enquiry is getting subtler and subtler; that you already know about the gross side of chakras and now you want to know the subtler forms.

Now the first question, which should be taken up first, is the one – “How the chakras come into human beings? What time? What stage of life?” because that should be the first question.

This question is something like if we ask, “What time a primule comes into the being of a seed?” is something like that, that, a human being, when he dies – as I have told you before, he does not die fully – only a part of him dies, which is mostly the Earth element, and the rest of the elements remain there. The rest of the body disappears and we can’t see it because it is not a complete human form. It goes on decreasing in size and the Kundalini leaves the body and stays outside, outside the body. And the Atma, what we call the Spirit, also leaves the body, and stays outside the body, which is the remaining body.

The constitution of this new body is different from our constitution. A light that is extinguished has all the body except for the light. But the light goes out of that body now. In the same way, in a human being who dies, the Spirit and the Kundalini leave the body, but they are around that body. And it’s a great procedure that follows which is fantastic. It’s unbelievable how the body disappears into different elements also.

But first of all, let us see, when such bodies which remain like that, they go into what you call the Pretalok (प्रेत लोक – Spirit world). There they become seeds or they become smaller and smaller and smaller till one body forms an ova and what you know as a sperm. In one body it is formed. I don’t know if you have seen the division of chromosomes how it takes place? It’s a complete division. If the chromosome is like that, it’s a complete vertical division and a complete separation takes place. That is why marriages and selection of partners, all these have a great place. For ordinary bodies it does not matter for the Divine; they take place in such a manner that there can be at random connections established. For example an ova of one may combine with the sperm of another. It happens at a very lower stage of evolution; among human beings also it happens like that for some people who are just not very evolved.

But mostly the ova rejects the sperms. It only accepts that sperm which is meant to be accepted. Now it is such a minute work. It is so fantastic that it is unbelievable. We have no idea as to how God works out in those. It’s absolutely tremendous that even the ova, rejects, goes on rejecting, the sperm that is not the second part of itself! And that’s how so many sperms are wasted and so many ova’s are wasted.

So you can imagine that there is a tremendous machinery, which is working out this. Specially people who are realised, when they are reborn, all the forces of the Divine combine to see that these, this ova is placed with a person who is ultimately going to meet the person who has the proper sperm so that there is no problem as far as the meeting is concerned. And the Divine takes all the care of these great souls.

The work of the Divine is very, very fantastic and it is beyond human conception to understand how the awareness of God can look after all the minute small things of the world. You cannot do even a small thing like attaching this to this one, unless and until you pay some human attention. So you can imagine the attention of God, who embeds so many seeds in this Mother Earth and gives you such huge, big trees! I mean, you have taken them for granted, but if you watch you will see this Fantastic, Dynamic Force behind it also, which thinks it, which does it, so perfectly. But we think that it is all automatic and that’s how we can bear it, and that’s how we can bear Sahaj yoga also, thinking that it is all automatic.

The second question is, “When did the chakras that are in the body [get] embedded?” They exist in the body and they go on existing. Of course they get corrected every time the body takes birth and goes into a new seeking. And the Kundalini also, every birth you are born, is watching you as to what you are doing, how your chakras are developing, how it is working out. And through the method of balancing you or [by your] parasympathetic system, or you can call universal unconscious, the chakras are brought to its proper shape and to its proper condition by evolution.

A man makes mistakes. He makes searches. He searches from one place to another. For example, he may start his search in money, then he starts his search in power, then he starts his search in love, I mean the carnal love, or he may start his search in some emotional expressions, then in art and all those things. Ultimately he finds that the search has not been alright because he has not been able to achieve any state of joyous existence. And with his search these chakras go on evolving and understanding.

Now we have to know that these chakras are absolutely living entities. Because when a person is supposed to be dead, that time, all the Deities are not in the working state. But the living man has the chakras, which has got the Deities, which work out the different functions of the chakra. And it’s a very, very subtle working and these can be called as the reflecting mirrors, at different levels of our awareness, where the Deities, which are placed in the Primordial Being, the Viraata, are reflected and they, once awakened, start working out the plans of the Divine.

In some of the human beings, when they are searching, these chakras find that the person or the subject is going to the extremes of things and this comes because a human being has got freedom to choose. And in his freedom he goes to the extremes, and by going to the extremes the chakras get damaged. Going to the extremes is what we call is ‘sin’. To be in the centre, to lead a moderate, simple, balanced life and stick to the values of our sustenance, is the best life. But if you start going to the extremes then the sin starts. And the sin, in the Bible it is written that, “The wages of sin is death.” So the death occurs. Now the death actually doesn’t take place but what happens is that the part of the chakra gets damaged. It can be a physical hankering, it can be mental, it can be emotional, it can be spiritual, it can be anything. If you go on working out an imbalanced solution then these chakras get spoilt at different points. That’s how your chakras get spoilt.

The chakras are, according to our awareness, in different states. For example for a doctor or for all of us, we know that we have plexuses in our body, we know we have different plexuses. Like you can say pelvic plexus, we have got solar plexus, we’ve got aortic plexus, we have got cardiac plexus, we have got cervical plexus, we have got optic chiasma, we’ve got limbic area to act, or we can say pituitary and pineal bodies at optic chiasma, and then we have got limbic area where we have got certain points which are active. This every doctor knows because they have even tested the limbic area of some monkeys and they found that, if you excite the limbic area of the monkeys, with electricity, they feel very joyous.

So all these chakras, in the body of a human being, are only felt as gross expressions, which we call as ‘plexuses’ in the parasympathetic and sympathetic channels. They are all connected as I have told you, that, the sympathetic comes from both the sides and creates the central channel, and that is the parasympathetic. So it depends on the balance of both these sympathetics that the parasympathetic works out well. When the balance breaks up, any imbalance can upset both of them and, when it is completely broken, then they become on their own, and that is how it is the complete so-called, ‘liberation’ of man from Gods grace.

Once he’s completely ‘liberated’ from that thing he starts falling into the state of, as you call them, rakshasas. He goes to hell, he goes to the other kind of awareness where there is no feeling, no consciousness of conscience. He doesn’t think twice. He can kill a hundred people without even feeling bad about it. He loses all his emotional side and also he loses all his wisdom. What remains in him is his own ambitions and his own desires or his depravity. And he goes on without feeling any compunction or any binding from the Divine or his own dharma.

So these chakras are very important for us because, first of all, they give us the balance for our everyday existence. They give us… (break in recording)…God, and we can think of subtle things and abstract things. This all comes through the help of the chakras. If you ask Me if the animals have the chakras – they have. But they don’t have all of them separated, sometimes they are confused chakras and all the chakras are not separated from each other and they are not all opened out because their evolutionary process is not yet complete. But some animals I have seen have got an awakened Kundalini and they are realised animals I have seen it. So it is possible, even for animals, to be very [much more] dharmic than men are. And sometimes it’s surprising how they can discriminate better than human beings can. Apart from that animals are kept under the bondage of God and whatever is their sustenance is done by them; they don’t have to think about it. For example a dog is a dog, a cat is a cat, and a tiger is a tiger. It’s only the human beings can be a dog, can be a scorpion, can be a snake and can be a saint. So it’s only a possibility in the human being that you can find all the animals existing side by side, and can be any time [that] these animals can come out and you may be surprised at yourself the way they suddenly jump out and start barking at you! So that is what human beings are because whatever has been in our past is within us; whatever animals we have been, is within us. So all that is there but whatever we are going to be, also is there. And whatever we are going to achieve is also there.

For human beings the future, past, present exists, but for God it does not. So for Him to plan and to organise and arrange is a very easy stuff because, if you do not have such demarcating things, you just organise things much better. And His methods are because of His own awareness, status, almightiness; or it’s just His nature that He’s like that, that He can manage things very well. And you cannot explain them with one event after another event, how He has managed and how it has happened. He does it just because He is capable of doing that. He need not do it, all that, with understanding or thinking about it, as human beings do, because he does not have to think either, because He is that. He is the power and He does everything. He is the consciousness, so he does everything without putting any effort into it. And is a very different state, which perhaps you can understand, as Sahaja Yogis that, just you move your hands and you find the Kundalini moving the other side! And you may say, “Why is it moving?” after all, you must think about it. You are realised so you can do it, but not a person who is not realised; if he put’s hand like that a hundred times nothing is going to work out. Only you can raise the Kundalini. The reason is: your awareness is different and his awareness is different; your powers are different and his powers are different.

So, in the same way, God, who is All Powerful, for Him, even [by] moving His finger He can move the whole Universe, after all He is God. And that’s why for human beings it is said that you better have faith in God, because that’s the best way you can solve your problem.

If you go on thinking about Him you’ll all go crazy! So we have to go to a point where we can understand Him otherwise we will all go crazy understanding Him (laughing) and we all will become mad thinking, “What all these things? It’s beyond us, it is too much!”

But, because in Sahaja Yoga, now your awareness has come really to such subtler forms, one can understand so many things and can understand the subtler ways of God’s doing and also understand what is possible for you through subtle methods. We can talk on subtler things but talking this to anybody who is not a Sahaja Yogi would be something madness! They wouldn’t understand a word that I’m saying. It’s only meant for the people who are Sahaja Yogis.

So we came to a point where I said that, “In the gross they are expressed as plexuses in the human being.” Now this is known as the gross way. Now the subtle form you have seen, the sukshma as they call it – the subtle form. The subtle form exists in the human being, which you can see – you have seen it – the subtle form as energy when it starts pulsating, you have seen the pulsation. But this subtle form is in two forms: one is a sukshma and [the other is] ati sukshma (very subtle). Because in the sukshma you can see and a person who is a realised soul, if you are a realised soul then you see even the chakras, in the sense you can feel the chakras on your fingers.

A unrealised soul can see the pulsation of the Kundalini and the different chakras with his own eyes. He can, if he watches it clearly, he can see the different chakras clearly. And you as Sahaja Yogis can feel them on your fingers and also can feel them within yourself in the collective consciousness. There is, you can say, in the second stage of sukshma, there are three stages as you can say: sukshma (सूक्ष्म), sukshmatara (सूक्ष्मतर – subtler) and sukshmatam (सूक्ष्मतम – very subtle, subtlest). These three things you can see. The first stage you see is on your fingers is the sukshmatara. But with the eyes [what] you see is a sukshma. And if your fingers or on your chakras when you feel, it is sukshmatam. So you see them in three forms. If some of the people do not feel it on the fingers [they] can feel it on the chakras also. So you can feel it in three ways.

But there’s a fourth way where you can say it is in the karana, karana state. That’s a higher state where a realised soul can feel it, who is born as a realised soul can feel it. And in that state they just know like a computer. They don’t bother as to which is the one, and they don’t put hands or anything, they just feel it, it is so. As you have seen in my granddaughter’s case, she just knows what is what. Just see, you ask her, she’ll immediately say, “This is this, this is this,” – like that. It comes plain to them, absolutely -“This is this.” Now you may say that how do they know? But this procedure becomes such a compact thing – it just happens to you. Like [if] you pin prick me here and immediately the hand goes back. The whole reflex action is so quick that we can say there’s no procedure as such but it’s just a reflex action. In the same way it acts as a reflex action, so that you don’t have to worry about the purpose of it.

That is the state where we say the karana state is reached. And the mahakarana state. Now this is the third stage is it? And even in the karana stage there are three stages into which one feels it. Now that is, I would say that, I need not explain because that’s beyond you people. But if you are born realised you will understand that imbalance in a personality of the three gunas is immediately perceived by a born realised person – immediately perceived! He can see through. That’s the wisdom he has gained in his previous lives and previous births and immediately they can see the imbalance that comes in. And whatever they say is so wise and they understand because they can see the imbalance of these three gunas.

And, according to their own gunas, whichever are prevalent in them, these three stages exist in them the way they say.

For example, some people are more tamogunis: means the ones who are very emotional type people, among them some are very emotional. So they see a person through the emotions, the way they feel in themselves. They call it a feeling. “I had a feeling for such a person. I felt that way.” That is the word they use.

But supposing the person is a rajoguni, he has been working on the rajoguna, like praying to Surya and doing Gayatri [mantras] and praying to all the heavenly bodies and also the five elements, like that. If he has been doing yAgnyas and all those things he’s a rajoguni. Such people see them as lights, as electrical forms; so they see them as colours and things. So one sees it as an emotional thing another sees it as a colour or as any form. They see them as forms, as colours, lights. They see as electrical currents and some them as a different flowers.

Now they are feelings and also they are these rajoguni expressions, which you can see with your eye [like] The Creation itself.

But they are also feelings. So those who can see feelings more, a person who has been very loving and has dealt in this side of life, who has been a bhakti man, a dedicated man, who has been praying to God and crying for Him and asking for His help and weeping before Him with all his heart – such a man will feel a person more and a person who is a more dedicated to forms and things, [he] will see them in a different way as forms. So then they see them in colours because they’re also colours. They’re also colours and they’re also sounds.

So the sound is also one of the elements, so they can see a sound. And they also see them when their Kundalini moves, they see the sound moving. Most of the people who have seen this have been the people who have been meditating through the Patanjali style of meditation where they were single people – Parashurama style (austere). And they saw these forms and they saw the movement of the Kundalini through the chakras; when it passes, it creates a sound, a word. And so they studied every sound how, which sound was created, what sound was created what colour was there. And so it is the one-sided knowledge of the right-hand side, of the people who went to the right-hand side that they say that, “This thing was created, that thing was created and then this sound was created.”

Then they formed the language – it’s the original Sanskrit language which was formed. That’s why it’s called as a Devavani. And that’s why these Deities understand Sanskrit the best. When you say Sanskrit mantras they absolutely understand them very fast because this has come originally from there. They studied that and then it closed off. But other languages in India, most of the languages, were taken from Sanskrit converted into something else, brought to another form and then another Sanskrit came in – Takruta Sanskrit, then these five languages – Magadi, Paishachi, Marathi, all these languages came in. So it is derivation [of Sanskrit].

Other languages in other countries that came up was also of course the expression of the Kundalini, but they learnt it more from say, the words came from the outside; the sound of the air flowing they call it ‘ssss’, so they call it  ‘s’ like that. And from the nature, whatever they learnt from outside because the approach has been more objective. So objective approach is always little less than the subjective because subjective is from inside and objective is from outside. So when you go from the objective, the deviation into the main sound that are coming from the inside, the purity is little bit deviated. And you know what is objective and subjectivity approach.

So this has happened with some languages. Some languages are very, very close to Sanskrit but they too took a turn according to their gunas.

Now, the Satvaguni (सत्त्वगुणि), the central path or the Satvaguni as they call it, they are also the people who have Satvaguna more in them; they see chakras in the right form. But Satvagunis should not be confused with the people who believe that if you eat this then this is satvik (centred), if you eat that that is tamasik (left-sided) or if you say this, this is satvik or if you do not kill anybody then it is satvik. In this the right perception comes in. For example, you have to explain why Krishna killed so many rakshasas. It was absolutely satva; is dharmic, absolutely dharmic. Why Durga killed so many rakshasas? She had to eat the blood of so many rakshasas.

So whatever is dharmic, the wisdom, the right path comes through such people who are neither too much this side, neither that side and they know exactly what is the right way of looking at life.

Such born realised people: this is a very, very far-fetched stuff; they are very few. I would say perhaps Buddha and Mahavira are the only two human beings who have gone through many lives. From one extreme to another they went and ultimately they found out that going to the extremes is not proper. Still they have not reached the complete height of an incarnation.

So a model was to be created who would all the time be giving a fixed point for a person to rise to that. And these are the different models which are placed within us on our chakras. And these models are perfect points belonging to those chakras. So according to the nature of the person who is watching these chakras, one sees them and gives them importance also.

Now for a person like say, [Adi] Shankacharya: Shankacharya is a born realised soul many a times. He’s not born realised once, but many a times he’s born realised, and he’s in the centre of it you can say. One of them, you can call him. So when he talks of his Mooladhara chakra, he has already done the path many-a-times and now he’s going to the subtler and subtler and subtler form. So when he says that, the Mooladhara chakra [when it] is opened out then you can walk on the water it’s correct. Because he is at that subtle stage of ascendence. One has to ascend once, second time, third time, forth time, and then you reach a stage where you start ascending. But even then it is not so important to walk on the water. What is so important to walk on the water? It’s nothing so important because it’s easy, you can take a boat and walk! It’s nothing so important! So walking on the [water], means also on the right hand side; it’s a right-hand side [power] to walk on the water or to fly in the air, all this is the right-hand side things which also can be done with the help of a boat, or what you call an aircraft or even you can use a bhoot! For that you can use a dead entity and we can make him take us to any place we feel like. It can be done! This ESP business is only that. So it can be done by other methods also. So it is nothing important.

It’s sometimes very confusing when we see that some people can fly in the air! They say [that] in the subtle form they have gone. You don’t see the body moving but you see that they can feel it. The difference being that the people who are realised can guide themselves and can see the body moving but those who are not realised they find that their subtle-being is being taken out and their consciousness going with them somewhere else and they’re sitting on top of the house; from there watching themselves and they’re sitting there and they see themselves sitting down like that. These phenomenon take place. That is absolutely nothing but a soul being ridden by a dead entity. So there’s nothing great about it. That is also right-side stuff.

The left hand side as I told you is the emotional feeling about things. You feel tremendous love for others and sometimes people, I would say Sainath was one of them who had this left hand side gift with him, and he was love personified. And he was so much full of love for people that once there was a woman who was very poor and she couldn’t celebrate her Diwali day and he couldn’t bear it so he gave her some water and the water became like oil and she burnt lights in that; and it’s a fact, you can do that, it’s possible. And with this power you can increase food, you increase the food stuff, like Christ did it. That’s also [using] one side (left side).

So all these things come in a personality; some people have one more, another has some more, and some people have all these qualities. Some, those who are incarnations have everything. They can do everything that they want to. And they will use whatever they want to do and if they don’t want use any powers they will not use. So it’s nothing important. Supposing you see something, alright, there you can see it is a good thing. But that doesn’t mean that you should stick on to those things but you must try to do what you don’t see. For example, now you see the light coming out of somebody’s head, now that’s one side of looking at things. Another is that you can feel the another person. Don’t you feel the another person? How he is, how he meets you, how you are coming closer to that person. Can you feel that compassion for him that he’s not where you are? That also is another balancing stuff. But this should be done [only when you are solid]. This is very dangerous for some people who try to be helpful to others when they are not themselves solidified properly.

So I would again warn you that when you start seeing lights and all that, try to remember that you are going on one side – you are seeing more. Then be more compassionate in your tongues, in your talking, in your behaviour. Try to have more love. Means right hand side is more developing, the left is less; is the heart. So you have to raise your Kundalini from right and left. But this is all mechanical it works out. It’s only thinking about it, “Oh, I have to develop my heart more,” the balance has to be there. This also should be there, the feeling for others.

Now the feeling for others cannot be explained as I feel for others. I just, if somebody is crying anywhere, I get tears into my eyes automatically. Even if you are not crying and if you are feeling hurt about things I get this hurt feeling within Myself. Like that, you should really feel that hurt feeling and that desperate feeling and that cry. Of course it comes to some people too much but they do not have the other side.

So you should have both the sides and both the balancing directors within you. So those who are seeing things more should not go on bothering about what they are seeing. “It’s coming that way, alright” because they have done that kind of tapasya so they see things. And it helps Sahaja Yoga very much because you can see for yourself who is realised who’s not realised, this thing, that thing.

But still the dryness is in you. So, if it is in you, you should try to develop it. So whatever you don’t have you try to develop that. Whatever you have don’t be satisfied with that. That’s the best way you can rise. Those people who can see things should try to feel others. Those who can feel others should try to see things and it will work out that way. So this is what it is.

And in the mahakarana state where the mahakarana is, that is a very, very subtlest form of state where the chakras which have got the Deities are connected with, are a reflection of, the Deities of the Viraata. Now these Deities in the Viraata are reflected in you, are awakened in you and they start moving and making the whole thing work out as it should be. Up to the karana state it is very good. But mahakarana state is the stage where it is the real – what you call the object – object and reflection. When you can come up to the object which is a really deep state of mind where you are with the object and when you are at the object you are very close to an incarnation state.

So as far as you people are concerned, you should try to understand up to karana state, because beyond that how to jump and how to go is not the question just now. What’s the use of telling you about something which is a far-fetched stuff? So we’ll talk about it later. But this is how it is the four states of chakras.

Now, tentza prashna? Ah, te chakra. Ha. (Marathi: His question? Ah, about chakras, yes.) He says you see it [moving] anti-clockwise. You do see, because most of the people who have seen it have seen it on other people and when you see on other people from the backside, you see it on the anti-clockwise side. But, if you see it from the front, it is clockwise, that’s why.

Yogi: No, what I am saying is – you feel the chakras moving, you are outside your own body, still the chakras are moving in an anti-clockwise manner.

Shri Mataji: Yes it depends on, you know, what I’ve just now told you: that the chakras, say for example, for an ordinary human being the chakras are nothing but ordinary plexuses; for a realised soul it is more than that. So the more you move into a greater wheel of your own awareness that’s how the chakras start manifesting. Now for example my chakras are working all over. All over. Do you see the difference? So it depends on the awareness of the person. As much as the light now say; that much is the extension of the light, as much [as] is the power. So that is what it is.

Now is there are any questions left on chakras?

Yogi: About the number of petals.

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. Number of petals is also gross stuff. Till you go to a certain stage where your petals are being created, because there’s a little mathematics about it, little mathematics. And all this mathematics has been worked out in a human being – how it is. But these are the…we can say that now for example, in a person now, a light is there: say 25 watts. Now 25 watts are to be converted to 60 watts or something like that. So you have to see the dimension into which the person is, [that] that portion is going to grow. It’s a big mathematics about you – the dimension to which that can grow and into what sphere it is going to penetrate. For example, the Mooladhara chakra you can take for an example now. Mooladhara chakra is actually fourth that way, because it covers the four sides of the human personality. It’s in the abstract calculation, it is the fourth side of the personality. And the fifth side, the movement in the fifth dimension, doesn’t take in the Mooladhara chakra. It takes above the Mooladhara chakra.

So the fourth dimensions as shown by that. These are the different dimensions of a man. At those levels how many dimensions you touch by these tattwas (principles) – it is calculated like that. In My book I have given most of these in very great details as to what are the dimensions one touches in this state and how far you go.

But the same Mooladhara becomes only two later on. But it is such a subtle and sharp two, which penetrates just like this, all over.

So it depends on…you can say in a machine you have different types of bones and different types of screws and with different dents. Now what is the calculation? Is there an engineer who can say why it is so? So it is a very detailed work and it’s all worked out because the dimensions into which a human being will be going, all that is worked out and on that chakra only these is dimensions you achieve. So it has a meaning. But it’s not only four [sub] chakras. It’s not only four. It has got many petals inside and it’s a very interesting one. Actually on Mooladhara I have written a big chapter, complete. How many folds are inside and how these things work out and how many folds, what do they suggest and how far they open out, because it’s all a dimension which is worked out.

For example, if you take a banyan tree, the seed is so small. A banyan tree has the smallest seed. Now why is it so? And why is it so microscopic? Because it is so dynamic. For you this is all worked out like a capsule. And it’s a capsule which is to work this dimension [and] it has to work that dimension. So it is rather a calculated stuff – which I have described. I have only described Mooladhara really in the full [way] because it makes such a big volume of one Mooladhara chakra, that I gave up about others. I have just mentioned [briefly] about them.

But only Mooladhara itself, when I started describing, it became such a big, huge thing. So I gave in I said, “Now better not do other ones (chakras).” But it’s quite a complicated stuff and, God has his own stage or style of planning and we can’t question Him. He does it according to His own whim. He has his own style. But [even] His whim has understanding – everything has.

You will find that sometimes, if you try to study, that if you ask Me certain things I try to answer it in a different way. Because there are His ways of doing things and He understands and that’s how He does it. But still I have tried to bring out at least Mooladhara chakra, so that human beings must understand that how complicated they are made, how God has been so careful to place their Mooladhara so well and how He has put the force there, how it’s a living machinery, how it’s working out so that people should understand the importance of their chakras and importance of their being, how important you are. You are not ordinary people.

Even if there’s an ordinary tape recorder we are so careful about it. How much we should be careful about our own machinery, which is being created in ages with such great understanding, with such mechanism! Every chakra if you take up, even if you take up three yugas (ages), you won’t understand one chakra – it is such a tremendous working inside. I have of course given only the description of it and the reason why is a stage which will make you really mad! But I have tried to explain in that. You have read my [description of] Mooladhara did you? It’s quite an elaborate stuff.

Gregoire: In Delhi, the question was “what is the purpose of life?”

Buddhism said the purpose, I mean, of all these incarnations is to go in nirvana, which is nothingness, where nothing happens. Then in the Christian tradition, it is also ‘perfection’ which is perceived as a total union with God which is immobility. Now you said it is not like this, you are going to incarnate again and again. Then the question I would like to ask in connection with the chakra is ‘What is the purpose of life?’ I understood before that the supreme thing is to be united with God, whatever this means, and when I am united because there is no movement anymore but…

Shri Mataji: But that stage I never cancelled it, that stage is not today. You see, when I said it that – just now you have to incarnate again and again – you are not at that stage. But when the whole thing…you see, nothing is wrong in any one of these. When they say, “There is a day of judgement.” But before that God is going to give you a chance. He is going to give you full chance to improve yourself [and] go to that position. Like that, we can say that, first the trees are brought into being by sowing the seeds. Then the trees grow up. Then there are flowers, then the flowers are again, they become seeds. Then again the trees and again this thing, until again they reach a certain stage, till they have completely ripened then they remove the whole thing and the whole thing becomes the Brahma itself. And whatever is a waste matter is thrown out.

So ultimately it’s the union. But the union of your being means with God. It’s a much greater state. First of all it’s the purification point. For your purification you are to be born again. You have not reached that stage where you should become mahanirvana, have you? If you become, might be [that] you might land up in hell so better not try that! See, you must understand that just now, at this stage you have to go further, purifying yourself till you reach a certain stage where, when you reach a certain stage, at that time, God has given you enough chance, enough chance to improve yourself. [But if] still you are rakshasas then you are not going to be tried any more. But it’s quite near, I must say. You cannot now allow it to take to chance it’s not, it’s quite near. One of the butchery is going to be very close, is very close; I mean I would say can be anytime. So you be careful! I mean, it’s just there. So many have to be neutralised because they are just very troublesome. So it can be quite close. So just be careful about it.

So, if everything fits into everything else but what happens is every religion, part of it is said so this cuts out the other. Supposing I say, “You have to go to this room,” now if I say that, “You have to come two steps that side,” and then I say, “You have to come three steps this side,” these are all connected stuff but because it is said only three steps here so you say, “Then in that religion it is said three steps inside you and what about those two steps?” I have to tell about them also. Because I have to tell about all those two steps [that] you have to take first, I better not tell about these three steps because you’ll put your eyes, “oh, very nice!” It’s not going to come in a plate (easily). You have to work it out consciously. Understand now.

Yogi: Where do the chakras go after death?

Shri Mataji: Chakras exist within you, chakras is a play. They just only exist within you.

Yogi: Within the Earth element?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no. They are in the body only, they are in the body. The body is itself like a seed, you become like a seed. But they are potent (potential?). You can’t see them. Chakra is a state.

Yogi: I think chakra and Kundalini must be together?

Shri Mataji: No, no. It is something like a light going out and the tube is still there. It is like that the Kundalini. But it stays on top of the head of the person. The only difference is, supposing, the light goes out and stays nearby. You see the potential is there in the light. It is like that. The place for the light to pass is there.

Question: And one more thing you have said about sympathetic and parasympathetic, when they separate out then that person goes to the extremities, the extremes and in that case, you know what happens, before our realisation whether they are separated.

Shri Mataji: No, no. They’re already separated in the gross they are separated; inside also they’re separated but there’s a void because yes, that is the only problem. The Kundalini gets enlightened when it faces me and it immediately starts rising. Or when you people [also], because you are also Sahaja Yogis. It doesn’t happen with anybody else you will be amazed you know.

So now what is the other question?

Question: How do the chakras move in the body; is it horizontally?

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. That is true, they are moving horizontally. They are moving horizontal but when you move them like this, you see; like you have seen the wheel…

Question: Why not you go this way?

Shri Mataji: No it doesn’t work out. It works out better this way. Because these are the things that are emitting. If you do it like this it goes down. This way these are moving you can move this. You have seen that in a watch there are some like this parallel and some are like this.

Ata dusra kai prashna ahe? (Marathi: now what other question is there?)

Yogini: Mataji, the fake gurus have damaged the chakras. How do they do it? And what should be done about it?

Shri Mataji: You see, what gurus do is they use different chakras for introducing into the sympathetic nervous system some entities which they have controlled. They do not control many entities as such, but what happens, for example now I would say, during war many people died just like that; killed there. In those countries, those souls, they never had a [normal] human life and they were treated just like animals and they were very much tortured. So they had that feeling in their minds that, “We should also torture these people.” So when they die they do not die really and they do not get into the pretloka. They stay in the atmosphere and that’s why wars are very bad things, because wars create such human beings much more, with accidents and people who are very depraved in life, very dissatisfied who are doing all kinds of depraved actions and secretive things and all kinds of horrid things. All such people, all of them, when they die they do not really go to pretaloka because they don’t think of their salvation but they are just thinking of their lust, greed or possessions, those who are grabbing things, thieves and all sorts of people. We can call ‘evil’ people and satanic people, when they die they find they become much more subtler and they can be better off if they act in a subtle body. So they use their subtle body for acting into people and such people are easily available.

So these gurus, what they do, that they themselves are evil geniuses, and they have a way of capturing those people and they use them. And they introduce to you through your different chakras. For example, Ravana had a capacity to speak and in his speech he used to introduce rakshasas into the human beings in Ceylon. Otherwise imagine in Lanka, people should never fight Rama, because at that time the sensitivity of people was so great that they knew that Rama was an incarnation. They were not gross as today they are, that one has to tell that, “Oh, here I am the incarnation.” That time it was not Kali Yuga so they knew he was an incarnation. And so many of them, I mean some of them did not, but quite a lot of them knew and despite that nobody could oppose it because their mind was captured by these entities put [into them] by Ravana and they fought Him.

So, it was so, even at the time of Krishna: people knew who He was at least they had quite an idea, even Kauravas new about it.

But this Kali Yuga is a wretched thing, nobody see anything clearly. But those times were not like that. People knew who was an incarnation and they understood it.

And that time also, these people had to use some sort of a way of putting them off and they used this method of enticement. And when they used this method of enticement, in that use, they learned also subtler ways and subtler ways which they are using in the Kali Yuga very well. They are actually rakshasas and they know these methods how to entice people. There are so many ways of doing it. And when you bend your head before them that is the best time when they can put it into your ego and they can finish you off for once and for all. So that’s how they do it. And you are no more yourself!

First of all they act on your heart: you become a nervous person your hands start shaking your feet start shaking; they act on your heart chakra. You lose the power of raksha (रक्षा – protection) which is the basic point of the heart chakra. And then, once you start losing the grip over your nerves you find that [it’s] as if somebody is doing for you. And if you take somebody’s name you start jumping and you don’t know anything – it’s an experience. There are so many things they do like that – thousand and one.

But human beings, as a whole in the Kali Yuga, instead of improving has gone down absolutely in his conception of Divinity and in everything, I mean he’s a hopeless case otherwise! But by God’s grace Sahaja Yoga may save him. They way it is I mean he’s very, very blunt, he cannot think, he’s very insensitive. And he carries on all kinds of his malpractices thinking that he’s the rarest saint ever born. That’s another great quality of Kali Yuga! This is the problem. They have no conscience left now to tell them that this is wrong or that is wrong, they’ve killed it. Everywhere it is so.

Tumhi shalid chi mulad ka? (Marathi: your kids are in school?)

Yogi: Ho. (yes)

Shri Mataji: Achcha (ok). Ata dusra prashna (Marathi: now another question)

Yogi: How music works on the five chakras?

Shri Mataji: All these five elements are very important in our body and they are the body of the chakras also as I have told you. So what happens that, when you sing the music, the vibrations can go through the musical sound and can excite certain chakras. For example, for the hrday (heart) chakra it is very good or also for the Vishuddhi chakra it is very good. Not for all the chakras. But certain chakras it does. But supposing you say a mantra, that’s the sound, with beautiful music and a realised soul then it is very effective. For example, Ganesha you can excite him with a beautiful sloka if you are a realised soul and if your Ganesha is correct, you can excite the Ganesha of another person very easily, I mean such a person can do it.

So music, sound, all these things have an effect and we are now using that method very extensively. But supposing now, we go in a mass meditation and many people are there and some chakra is caught, say Vishuddhi is caught, I can correct their Vishuddhi by just putting My finger on this, like this, because this has the sound, this is in the chakras, there is a micro-sound which is carrying the vibrations. Actually the part of the vibrations is the micro-sound also, micro-light, micro-sound and all the five elements are micro there. So when I put my finger the micro sound can carry the rest of them and the person can be corrected. We can do it. Specially Vishuddhi. Very easy to correct Vishuddhi on that. You can correct most of the things but certain things are very easily corrected. Vishuddhi, which is responsible for the sound, made from the sound element.

As we have seen that water element is very good for treating people for the lower chakras, up to the heart chakra, because the water and salt can help you for the Nabhi chakra because salt is the earth element and it is essence of the ocean and the essence of the ocean is in the bhavasagara. So we can use salt water for clearing the lower chakras. We can use light for the eyes because, this is made out of the prakash, the light, light element.

Like that different things can be done. And with these different elements if you use them, you can make all the dirt or all the obstructions, which are collected in your particular chakra by putting them back into the same element and cleansing them out so the element takes it away.

For Mother Earth also, She has so many elements in Her that She can take away so many of your problems which are troubling you, in your being, because of some imbalance of the Mother Earth element. This is all due to the imbalance of these elements in you, accumulated more beyond than what you want it. That’s why I said, “the extreme of it.”

Bhu tattwa (Earth element) is expressed through Shri Ganesh and Shri Ganesh is the form of the purified principle of the Earth element and is the same. In a flute you have two notes -the first and the last are the same. In the same way in a human being the seven notes, the first one is a Ganesha and the last one is also a Ganesha. So these seven notes are the same. And these seven notes make the Earth element and not completely Earth element but started with earth element purified. When it loses its Earth element problems completely it is Parabrahma, it becomes all Brahma. Because Earth element is, outside is the Earth element but inside is dhara, is dhara, is dharana – is the power to sustain, is the power to sustain. And that power is the purest form of Earth principle (tattwa). So, that you become later on; gradually the whole Earth element drops down and you become that.

So it is the dharana shakti as they call it: the power of sustenance. Is the Ganesha. So, like that, in every chakra you have a very subtle and subtle-most point. And that subtle-most point is the note that the Divine is playing at that point, because every note has a different frequency, a different intonation, a different sound, which helps in the melody of this Universe.

So, like that, we have seven chakras and the seven notes. And they are different notes but these notes then create permutations and combinations and that is how a chakra gets into a swara (musical note) and then it becomes a sound, and from a sound it becomes a word, and from word it becomes a language and like that it goes on and the same subtle form starts becoming something else. For example if I have love for my children: how [do] I express it? I make a house for them, I make a place to live for them, I cook food for them, I make a bed for them. It’s a gross expression of that subtle love I have. In the same way whatever is subtle within us is expressed outside with the help of the elements that are outside, to express the subtle through our gross behaviour or gross material things we do.

So, it’s the same subtle which is expressing outside. But then we become so gross later on that we forget the inner part of it. A Mother may create something, all these things and then she becomes so possessive of her children, she’ll think, “I’ve done so much for my children,” that she wouldn’t even think why she has made it! She forgets the love part of it and she becomes nothing but the gross thing. She just starts scolding the children, even for breaking a small thing here and there. She does this for love, and then she forgets it. That’s what is an extreme behaviour. Extreme behaviour means, from the subtle, you get to the gross and the gross, and the grosser. Once you become grosser you are dead.

Ata kai prashna? (Marathi: Now what question?)

Yogi: (asks question about badhas)

Shri Mataji: Those who can see badhas are on the emotional side. They can see the badhas. There also you can see two types of people. Those who already themselves in badha, they can see badhas, very clearly; they can see the dead persons. Those who are already badha can see that another person has got a badha because they are in the collective subconscious themselves, so they can see. And a person can see, the one who is a drunkard – he can see. A person who is drunk can see a badha in another person because he is a subconscious type, he likes it.

But some people can achieve a state in an emotional way that they can see badha clearly. If they are realised souls, the emotional state, people say, the bhakti people can see a badha there. But even the supra-conscious people can see a light coming before them, they can see somebody standing before them like a light and then say that, “There’s a light coming.” They might get fragrance or things like that can happen. They are called as tanmatras (तन्मात्र – subtle element) is the causal principle of all the Universe, causal – tanmatras. Means for Earth the causal principle is fragrance. So, supposing somebody has done a lot of search in the field of say, Earth element, so such a person can get a lot of fragrance, he can. It is a variety everywhere created because of their different searches and because of their different seeking.

You see badha, just say somebody has a badha or not. If he has Agnya and a heart it’s definitely a badha. And you just ask the person to put their hands before the photograph and he starts shaking. Normally he shakes.

I don’t know how you should make it out but it’s very easy you can make out; they cannot put their eyes towards my photograph. If you ask them to close their eyes their eyes will start flickering, hands will start shaking, eyes will always flicker. slightest ?? will show on the eyelids – like this. Badha, can be of many types. Some people just have for the time being, some people have permanent residence, some have bags full! So you just can’t say what it will be.

You just don’t worry about these things.

The thing is, people think that there’s only one type of badha – is emotional badha. There can be both types. A person who is very egotistical also is dominated by somebody else. Abnormal area, abnormal behaviour, who is not a normal person, can come from anywhere.

There is no difference between sunlight and sun, moonlight and moon. So there is no difference at all. It is only the human beings who think there are two stuffs. It is an advaita (अद्वैत -non-duality), which one and the same thing. For example, now, this bangle is beautifying my hand. So what is the difference between this bangle and the beautification? Is the quality of a person. Is the quality. It’s like the ?? and ??. You will take out the rest of it and you will say that this is all useless. It’s not that. In everything this is all there, it’s one. What is the essence of sunlight and sun? Sun has no meaning without sunlight. Sunlight has no meaning without sun. It is not essence, it is everything but. You can say water and a ice. There is no difference at all. Human beings cannot conceive it, that’s the trouble with the human mind, because it is an advaita. Human beings cannot see it, they think of two (manifold) things always. Through perception it is not possible for you to perceive it, but you can understand by analogies. Many things human beings can’t understand. You just cannot, because you have a limited brain, you have a limited awareness, you have limited love.