Workshop and discourses

Finchley Ashram, London (England)

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“Workshop and discussions with Shri Mataji,” Finchley Ashram 1  11 November 1977

Tape 1

( 1977-11-03 Workshop Part 2 Finchley Ashram, 93′, min 43:29

Shri Mataji: See, in the beginning   Sahaja is such a sweet thing that in the beginning it makes you  such that  you get the vibrations alright. And in the beginning it doesn’t give you the feeling of heaviness so much as it would to these people (yogis). It doesn’t make you feel nervous. Because supposing the first day, only, you get a heavy head, you would say, “What sort of a Sahaja Yoga is this one?” See? So it makes you, first of all, [feel] very nice and happy. But then, you see, it makes you also strong! And it makes you a witness. Then, when you start you don’t mind: you just got this in your head, it’s alright “haaa hooo,” but you take it out, you fight it out. It’s like you see it’s training, in a battlefield, and you have to fight the satanic forces, alright? So suddenly you are not exposed to the battlefield, but what they do is to first of all prepare you. First you are hit by a mock sword, so you don’t feel it. Then you strengthen your sword.

Better now? Better?

They used to be so much frightened, you know!  Everybody coming used to be frightened! They used to be very frightened, now they have become very relaxed!

Italian Yogi: (Tells story about something)

Shri Mataji: That’s what I was telling you that, you see, God’s power is everywhere. You will see that now, you will feel it. When you become subtler and subtler you will see that, that is everywhere it’s acting, it’s organising with love. Only the trouble with us [is] we do not leave any space, any realm, for Him to act. When we try to do everything ourselves,  he says, “Alright, go ahead!” You [must] allow Him to work out. Sahaja means that. ‘Sahaja’ means that you allow Him to work out.

Sheila (from Harrow): (tells story)

Shri Mataji: But to recognise  Me is a big thing you have done. There are so many of brains, you see, but they don’t recognise. They never recognised Christ, and it was very difficult and by the time they recognised Him, He had gone away, and He was resurrected: that’s the time that they recognised. Then they started shouting and beating their heads. And this is what they did to you. That shows your pure sensitivity, pure sensitivity. If you are not sensitive you can never recognise  Me, whatever you may try: you cannot. That’s it!

Because there are so many realised-souls, some of them, born: they do not recognise.

Sheila: Why?

Shri Mataji: You see, the reason is, because they have achieved their realisation, they think, through their efforts, through their penance, yes, and they think they have been very great warriors, and they have done it, so the ego develops in them, and they do not want to recognise somebody in person because they have got it in an abstract way, so they do not want to recognise  Me. But sometimes they do not, but then I have seen, ultimately they do. 

But those who are born at a much higher level, they recognise me already. I mean, I have not met them, so many of them, but they know me [that] I am there. They are telling people  that, “She is there. Go and meet [her].” So many of them.

Satpal is one of them, he went to somebody who is a mahatma who never comes out of his place; and first time before coming here he went to him, and he said, “What are you asking me this [for]? The Shakti has gone to England now! She is there. Shakti is there. You have come from England, why don’t you see her there? She is there.” 

But they stay in the temples, they stay in the forests, they are not down. Because they are afraid. You know, people might do something against them; they really tortured. And this also they catch [from them]. You are under my protection [so] I can look after you; but this catching business, if there is nobody to look after it, it can be terrible, you see. Now this Gagangan Maharaj he has both the legs like this and hands are like this, he can’t walk by himself, so he goes on a tiger. He knows about  Me; because they have an awareness of a different style.

Are you better now? What is it? Give a bandhan to yourself. These all have come out from the same sort of problems as you have. They have all, very much, so they understand and they have patience for you, that’s the reason.

So whom did you go with?

Seeker: My guru?

Shri Mataji: Ha.

Seeker: Muktananda. You don’t like him?

Shri Mataji: Oh, like? I mean! So, did he touch you somewhere?

Seeker: Ah yes, he did touch me there.

Shri Mataji: Agnya?

Seeker: Yes, on the Agnya.

Shri Mataji: Yes, will you please remove your hair a little on top, if you can now watch here (Mother’s Agnya). 

Better now? 


Actually Muktanand started, Muktanand was a realised-soul, his guru [Nityanand] was a realised soul. But I wouldn’t say that he was a very higher realised personality, but he was realised, born-realised, but he had not reached a great achievement to know many things. And he used to catch his Agnya too much from other people, so he used to throw stones at people, anybody who would go to him, he used to throw stones, and then this Muktanand also joined him and there are many others who joined him. And when he died Muktanand said, “I’m his chief disciple,” and this and that. But he developed these  powers. And this you can develop very easily. It’s very easy. I’m going to tell you about how they developed these powers. But these are not powers, but these are sort of diseases, actually. And as you can contaminate another by your disease, in the same way it was with this fellow.

And then he started this ashram in a very small manner to begin with. Then in India we have lots of black markets, lots of them; we had them, and again we are having them. I mean, in any countries where there is too much of income tax, there are these types of people.

In India, you see, basically they are a little frightened of God all the time, so they think that, “We are doing all this [bad things] so let’s also have some generosity, some sort of a guru, so that we are saved.” You see, at least a part of it should be given.  So they try to find out someone. So, you see, Muktanand came forward, and actually he started an ashram for the people who were doing well. And then lots of hippies coming down to Goa and all these places. So they said, “Alright, my guru has lived, and I will start my ashram.” And he was in the military first of all, and then he retired from there. On the other hand, this fellow Jungde, he’s another horrible fellow, he joined him. And he was a private secretary of (some politician) ??? and that, because he was a private secretary before joining him, you see, he knew how to administer all forms of income. His wife was a very sensible woman to begin with, but then she also got into it. And the business started fast . And the minister was the minister of industry in India, in Bombay, just Maharashtra, that part, that state. Actually I know him so well, you can’t imagine, this minister. He was my father’s (?). And he knew about  Me from my childhood, he knew that I was something exceptional and all that. And he came to  Me one day, and he asked  Me, and his wife also asked  Me, “What do you think of this Muktananda?” I said, “Which Muktanand?” Because many are called Muktanand. I said he was a realised-soul. But actually I did not pay any attention to Muktanand at that time. And they got into it so badly! You see, because the money that was coming from this black market and all that was given [by them to Muktanand] and these people had sort of a respite in that: so that they would give the money and the people would go and stay there, and they would feel that a little bit our sins are being taken away by that sort of a charity. We call it as daan (दान: charitable gift). Daan is a gift to God, or something you give to God. Then so many hippies we had in Goa and when they started…

Shri Mataji: Hello, how are you?

Seeker: Very well

Shri Mataji: Good, good! Very nice! Sit down on the chair. And you don’t wear [clothes] that tight, alright? Your clothes are too tight, and we must all wear a little loose clothes, is a better idea.  Alright, put your hands out. I mean, no harm in wearing a tight one but for Kundalini movement and all that, if it is tight, then the muscle movement is not easy because it flows through your muscles and everything, the vibrations, so if it is a little loose clothes it is better. At least for meditation it is better. Alright.

…then this man, when he started this thing, these people from Goa, especially from Goa, had no money after some time. You see because the money that was sent to them was finished, so maybe the parents must have given them up, whatever it is, so quite a lot of them were there in a big mess. So this gentleman, this minister, he thought, “Why not put these people into that ashram?” Sort of he brought all of them and put them there, sort of atonement for the sins. These he brought there. And he prepared in the early stages, some of them, into this business side of seeking. And they were taking drugs and everything. So on one side the drug system was there and on another side they were having their food and all that, and it was like a show there. So, for Indians, when they went there they saw so many foreigners being saved, you know, [so] their  feeling of pity was satisfied that, “What a thing we are doing for these poor people!” and “We are helping them out and everything.” And it was such a great experience for them to feel that, and everybody started donating money. And then this fellow started it in a big way, and then he also started pressing at wrong points of many people. For example, the one who had come that day, he had touched. And he touches on the private parts of – Muktananda has done – on many people he has done it. Not [only] that be, he has also used some women, many more women, who came to me. But you see, Indian women are so afraid, even everybody is afraid, you see, the women, to say like that, that, “That he has used us.” Such a nonsense it is. I mean, it’s being a prostitute. It’s being like that.

But there were lots of reports and people went to the police and this and that and there was some Mr. Wuqtat, who was a minister of, I think he was the minister for the land and revenue, and the police came to him and everything happened, and they wanted to have a case against it. They wanted to file a report against him, the way he was on. But you see, it went to the government said, “No, we are getting lots of foreign exchange now for that, so let him be, don’t disturb him.” Just imagine! 

And I shouldn’t say all these things to you, but I know this has happened, then you must know.

And so they left him alone to do whatever he pleases, because he was bringing lots of money! When he went to America, about three years back, he got three crores of foreign exchange.

Seeker: They had a jumbo jet.

Shri Mataji: A jumbo jet, yes. And, with that, when he came back, naturally people said, “Now he’s bringing  money to us.” But actually he didn’t bring the money as such, he didn’t give it to the government. But you see, so much foreign exchange was earned, and he got the exchange for that! You see, foreign exchange he got, is the point. You see, supposing you take money from here, and it’s the foreign exchange, then the money you can have, Indian money you can have, but they get the foreign exchange, isn’t it. And that’s how they were very happy with him, because they could buy jumbo and all that, with that money.

So the whole thing turns out, just see how; how everybody gets involved into it. It passes through such a materialistic style , and it makes everybody branded because, “It’s alright!” Like a prostitute selling her body and earning her money: “It’s alright! It’s alright! What’s wrong? I am getting money quite alright, what’s wrong in it?” It’s the same style. And that’s how the government, at the time of Indira Gandhi only this happened, that she said, “What’s wrong in it? He’s doing foreign exchange, let him do it. We are having foreign exchange, what’s the harm?” 

Same thing happened with the fellow Brahmachary who was with  her. Every day he used to come on the television! Horrible fellow! And when he came here, he wanted to give me a photo. I’ll manage him that way. But I am saying [that] this is what it is. And every day he was there [on TV] and that ashram was donated to him free of cost by the government people! Government has given that ashram! Such a big ashram. And he was given special sort of facilities; like he could travel anywhere he wanted to, and he could enter into Indira Gandhi’s house, absolutely, even in the night. Any time he could come out and enter there and stay with her and do whatever he pleases! When the whole government collapsed then this came out, but this fellow, this Brahmachary was having a  – there was a lady, Chopra, Mrs. Chopra, but the man [husband] reported that he used that woman: and there were seven rooms he had which he says, and he used to be in the seventh room, and you have to pass from one to another and the one who went through each seven  had this kind of a ‘blessing’ from him. 

And this Mrs. Chopra, poor thing, you know, it was announced in the paper, all these things came up: her husband told that, “This is what happened, I went from the back side on the seventh floor, and, and I saw her sleeping with him!” He saw, and he said, nobody hit him or anything because  he was arrested, and he was sent to jail, and he was in jail all the time, because he saw this happening to his own wife! And when this Indira Gandhi’s went down, then his wife said, “Yes, it’s a fact.” But in India such wives have no place so poor thing, she’s in a very big mess now, but this is what it is.

Sheila (from Harrow): I can’t understand why the women let him do this. .

Shri Mataji: That’s it. But what happens, I tell you, it is the way they impress on you [is] because they mesmerise you, they mesmerise you. You see,  they mesmerise you. And by that, and they just say, “Come along, this is God’s thing. You are a seeker.” 

Sheila (from Harrow): They manipulate you.

Shri Mataji: Oh, they play all kinds of tricks! They mesmerise you. They are very polite, they are very kind. They never say anything against anyone. Oh, and you think they are a gem of a people, you know. They are very, very soft-spoken, and very sweet to you and [then] all sorts of things they do.

Seeker: Are you saying that Muktananda was doing this? Or was it this Brahmachary?

Shri Mataji: Yes, very much. Very much!

Seeker: But Muktananda is a powerful abstainer, isn’t he? 

Shri Mataji: He tells outside, abstainer. That’s what it is after. They tell as if it is abstaining. And then [when] you go inside,  they tell the (?) ! 

Yogi: [unclear]

Shri Mataji: They have a private audience, you see. They have a private audience. They are rakshasas! They can have ten women at a time. They are horrid people! They eat like hell! If you see how much they eat. This Muktananda’s food, if you see, you’ll be surprised how much he can eat.

Seeker: They say he eats very little, and that, since he was fifteen, he has been a total abstainer.

Shri Mataji: That is what it is! You see, what happens is that they have a group of people around them, and they give all these stories. All these stories are given out like that. Terrible!

I went to see him, Muktanand, just to put him a little bit right. Oh, but he is a master, so you cannot put a master right! I wanted to see him what sort of a fellow he was, and he looked at  Me, and coming in a big car with a chauffeur, then they know that she’s such and such and her husband is such and such. And he looked at  Me, and he came with a very great thing, and he gave me also a shawl. I said, “I don’t take anything from you.” And he took  Me down to the meditation hall and all that, and he said, “You see we need lots of money to build up this and that and that…” I said, “In this meditation hall, you have got photographs of so many people! What are these people who are here?” He said, “These are all the people who come at my feet!” I said, “Really?” And he took my photograph also with him, somebody was there who took my photograph, so I said, “Are you going to put that one also here?” He said, “They come at my feet.” He said, “No, this is meditation hall, and I want to tell people because once they recognise that way then they’ll surrender better.” He said, “Are you by the way interested in meditation?” I said, “By the way, I am not at all interested.” 

And many women have come to him, but they don’t want to say it.

Seeker: Brahmachary is in jail now, isn’t he.

Shri Mataji: Brahmachary was in jail, but what about this Dekhadas? Dekhadas is the same type. He’s now got leprosy, imagine he’s got leprosy! And another thing is Muktananda is suffering from VD! Now, this is the limit of this: he’s suffering from VD!

You see, he has a doctor who is a brother-in-law of Subramaniam.

Sheila (from Harrow): Why do they do this?

Shri Mataji: Because they are on the other extreme, you see. Because they are monsters!

Sheila (from Harrow): Everything they do is exaggerated, not just sex but food…

Shri Mataji: Everything! Or they will be abstaining to such an extent, some of them are like this also, I would say, they can be like that; that they are hot tempered, absolutely! They don’t eat anything, they eat only human beings, you see the mind is like that, their appetite is that if anybody passes, “Put them! Do this! Do that!” Absolutely from inside, sort of a burning fire! They can be two types, extremes.

Yogi: Like the old sages.

Shri Mataji: Yes we have had some Vishwamitras and all that in our own times, we have had. They never did any salvation work for the people. You have to be in the centre. Sex? Alright, but must have sanctified sex. And rise above it. You should feel satisfied about it because if you do not feel satisfied about it that means it’s no good! So with one wife, one person, if you have sex all your life, then gradually you rise, and you go deeper into her, deeper understanding into it. But you see the whole society is so upside down: they think if you have sex then you are a great person! I mean, what is so great? This is only done among…you know, impotent people only think like this! You see, only impotent people have these kinds of ideas that if you have sex, then only you are a great person. 

Gradually in India, if you start from childhood that [you] try to keep your mind away from this as far as possible. I mean, you are not even allowed to see naked women or any photograph like that. I mean, they used to say that, put your eyes always down below. I mean, anyone like that walks with the eyes down below, in India. The people of my age in India walk with the eyes down below, I mean, those who are brought up from the proper family. And, looking too much at women or interested in women, people don’t like; they don’t like it. In the society women are separate, men are separate, if you meet [or] anything.  And any man coming too much among the women and talking too much, then they won’t like it; they call him (grandpa??), which is a bad name for him. Here, (?) the other day for the priest, they said, “He’s a ladykiller!” I mean, if you said this to an Indian he will die of shame, “Oh God!” Because we have had models like Rama. It’s regarded as very bad! You ask them, they have been to the villages: very innocent people! They just don’t bother about these things. I mean, if somebody does that they think, “Ah! What sort of a man!”

Now, in my family, once two sanyasis came and my daughter said, “Mummy, you don’t let these two horrible fellows! You see, they have very bad eyes. We don’t want to have them in the house.” And here a girl seems very much enamoured [by attention]. We are surprised at that. Once my husband came down, and he said, “You know, it’s very funny about these people! The father of the girl was telling me that these two girls went for a bathing in some place, and all boys were making remarks  on them, and they were feeling very great about it!” In India, the girl would have taken out her slipper and beaten those boys! How dare he pass remark at her! And this is getting on [encroaching] your privacy. Everybody doesn’t have the right to look at us with that eyes! That should be taught.

And it’s surprising [that] it’s in this place where Christ is worshipped. What did He say for this? Not even the adulterous eyes. To that subtle power he went into. Even not only the mind but even the adulterous eyes. Even if you have adulterous eyes, he will not live here: he said it clearly. It’s an insult! It’s just to make Him die in this place [Agnya] that they did all this.

It’s not regarded as good manners in India to be exposed like this: very bad manners it is! Now you ask these girls – they will tell you, they have been to India – how women live and how they behave. Actually, you meet all wrong type of people here. 

But you were also [once dharmic] like that. It’s all been spoilt only recently. Funny ideas of modernism of using women. I mean, one should feel ashamed! And that’s how the women, when they lose their power, the whole nation collapses. It’s only on the women, their power, the nation exists: on their sense and their wisdom. And they become so aggressive! Now this boy has a mother who is so aggressive! Terrible people! Is she better now?

I know, I know how they are. I have seen them – most surprising. A mother has to be extremely loving and tolerant and wise, and should respect her chastity. I mean, it’s an abuse in India if somebody says about the mother, and here it’s surprising, he’s saying that everybody has relationship with the mother. What to do now? Are we a different type of a people or some funny, funny people who are born in that country where it’s an abuse. If you say that [in India] you can be murdered for that! Perhaps maybe in the law it may not be permissible if you say that in India to someone. Hmm. Horrible!

Now first I used to think that this Muktanand is only using that money and publicity and all that, so I said, “Let him have money, whatever he wants. Doesn’t matter.” But then when his disciples started coming to  Me, I realised he had spoiled their Kundalini. Then I was very angry with him. Because that is the primule, you see. That is how you are going to get your second birth. And he’s spoiling that! And for so many of you would never have got it, for many lives the way he has spoilt. Some of them he has spoilt very badly.

Now there’s a problem we have with this man, bald headed gentleman who comes. I don’t know if he’ll get it. He gets it, but it drops down. You see, his Kundalini drops down, drops down. When he [Muktanand] touches the Kundalini, he makes the chakras so loose that the Kundalini comes up and after some time drops down. 


Yah! Come along! How are you? How is Ravi? (1:17:30 Short Hindi conversation with Ravi) For his treatment? Woooow! He’s gone for his treatment, or what has he gone for?

When he got there?

Ravi: Kuch ?? .

Shri Mataji: Kaise abhi?  (How is he now?)

Ravi: Bas, kharab hai. (Still sick) Us ka tabiyat. (His health)

Shri Mataji: Bahut kharab (very sick). Bahut usne safaya. (He cleared a lot). Ghar mein chalna chaahiye (He should walk in the house). Ghar mein, main chalana chaahiye (At home I also have to walk)

Ravi: (Hindi)

Shri Mataji: Aisa hai. Ye sach hi baat (That’s very true). That style of people, very thin, angry. 

Ravi: (Hindi)

Shri Mataji: No, no. You cannot. You leave it too much. You cannot change him. It’s really not possible, you know. 

I got it from him. Now which one is yours? Now come along. I could bring chocolate for you only! All for the Sahaj Yogis is a good idea. But, you see, I could bring you chocolates. Today we have dinner for you, I must announce beforehand. You see, we have dinner but cook it now.

Marie: It’s already cooked.

Yogini: Marie has done it.

Shri Mataji: Oh! Already been cooked. So there is dinner for us.

Marie: Only the vegetables are not cooked.

Shri Mataji: Ah, come along. You see, the other day, Gavin said a very sweet thing: he was angry with  Me. When I went away in the morning time, he came on my foot and his Agnya was caught. I said, “Why are you angry?” So he said, “I was very angry Mother because you didn’t keep them for food!” I said, “Well, you should have told me! I was thinking you had no food in the house!” And they wanted to go, so I said, “Alright, go now!” I didn’t offer them any food. And I was very happy, you see. The whole day yesterday I was very joyous to see his generosity about it. And the way he was angry, it was a correct way to get angry with  Me. I love it that way, if you are angry that [way]. You see, he had brought for everyone, and he was very unhappy that he couldn’t give food, you know.

How are you? Fine?

Have you removed the water? Now remove it! Take out the water and wipe your feet. No, let him wipe! You put yourself on the side here. And then you have to take yourself that water into the WC, alright?

Are you better now? No?

Seeker: I’m not sure.

Shri Mataji: A little cool in the hands? Not yet?

No, you come here, I will feel what’s the problem. Hmm. You must see the vibrations coming. Ha?

It’s better now. But what is behind here I want to see. 

You see, the trouble is more with the ??? and they have to get out.

Agnya? Now, are you feeling cool breeze in the hands? Let’s see now, now you have been cleared. Sit down. Aaaah! 

You see the vibrations of this person, just see. Take a bandhan and see for yourself. Turn around. Just see now. 

Are you lighter now?

Coolly is at the back.

Feel very good?

Marie: I feel a little bit cool on this hand there.

Shri Mataji: I mean, we’ve removed this quite a lot. But you won’t be alright till your father is alright because you are catching from him.  You see. Our father and mother, both are built within us.

Hello, how are you? Good! Good!

So nobody is going away without eating, alright? And at the time when you want to give them to eat, you tell him. . 

And I’m just eating your bhoots all the time! (laughing) Ha!

For  Me, it’s alright, I’m never hungry.

So you have met some friends of his? 

Marie: Not really, no.

Shri Mataji: Hello! How are you? May God bless you! She has not yet come, your wife?

Bogdan Shehovych: Not today, she wants to talk to her sister.

Shri Mataji: I knew that. She has a big problem. Sit down. See his vibrations.

Bogdan : The whole day, I was just cramped here. It was burning in Left Swadishthana. My whole left side was just aching, but I was still in thoughtless awareness, when I was watching TV in the evening I sort of sensed some badha or something coming into superego. I had a sympathetic shock and I ran off to eliminate my bowels. Anyway, I just looked at it. I wasn’t liking it much, but I looked at it and in the morning I was good. But it’s getting irritating. It doesn’t want to stop.

Shri Mataji: Now, if I told you about your friend, you would not have been used to that. But you see how terrible they are! Their contamination is so terrible that it is better to know about them. You see, this experience is necessary also, because otherwise how can anybody know? They will think that, “Mataji is telling about everyone like that.” But you see, whatever is a disease or whatever is a contamination, you must know about.

Ha! Better now. Heart? Left? Oh God! Just give him a bandhan. All [of] you put your hand on your heart. Right hand on your heart.

(1:29 – Hindi conversation with Ravi)

Hello, come along! How are you now? Really? You put your right hand there, you take it off.

Only with thirteen years, how many times he must have (? lethargy) , isn’t it?

And what is he going to do there? Ruin so many people for his ‘treatment’?

Bogdan: But he doesn’t know it, he doesn’t care. He doesn’t know it. (?) Anyway, I want to forget him.

Shri Mataji: But it is very necessary for anybody who is responsible, that if you do not know something, then you just don’t do it! You must know about what you do. I mean, you just don’t jump into something that is so unknown; I mean, for anyone who feels responsible for his own life and responsible for everything. Isn’t it? You should do what you know, and what you do not know you should not do. I mean, going to that extent without knowing from where he’s getting his powers.

Bogdan : He thinks it’s his higher self, his intuition.

Shri Mataji: How does he know it is his self?

Bodgan Shehovych: He doesn’t know.

Shri Mataji: (? Kahata Kabira ananda bhaiyo bhai, bhaje ko anahata ???

As you grow , (?joy, to pulsate, first you established  the truth, and then it comes to you as joy.

Absolutely like this? Ha!  Is it better?  Haa! Huun! You can now feel it. Better?

(End of tape 1 recording)

Tape 2  – 1977-1103 Workshop Part 1 Finchley Ashram

… a very good method of getting out of the situation. But now she has to face the reality, so she is refusing this way. Getting into trance is a very good idea, you see, so that you just don’t see the thing. What happened? Something came  up?

Yogi: No, I felt a ‘tsschh’!

Shri Mataji: How are you? Better?

Bogdan: Easier.  But yesterday, this finger felt like somebody trod on it. (Mother laughs)

Shri Mataji: You don’t know [that] it’s a very dangerous thing to catch that finger like that; but because you are a Sahaj Yogi, you don’t feel it. Very dangerous you know, this is the existence itself. On the left hand side this finger is the heart organ itself. The heart organ is left, this finger.

Bogdan: So they are affecting the existence, my existence?

Shri Mataji: Yes, attacking the existence!

Bogdan: Yes.

Shri Mataji: And now what you have to do: at that point, who exists there is Shiva and you have to ask for forgiveness from Him, because you’ve done a little mistake, you see.

A few things you have done, a mistake. As you said that, “I gave a bandhan to this hand, and he jumped onto that.” But whatever mistakes, you see, there’s a beautiful couplet about Shiva, what’s it? Is, a beautiful one.

Mrs. Sharda Devi: Mantra nahi chalega? Om namah Shivaya?

Shri Mataji: Mantra nahi. No, no no: om namah Shivaya to thik hai but this shloka on Shiva is very good to show how He is – Karcharankritam.

It’s a shloka, it says:

Karcharankritam, vaak-kaayajam, karmajam vaa,
करचरण कृतं वाक्कायजं कर्मजं वा ।
Shravana nayanjam vaa, maansam Vaaparadham,
श्रवणनयनजं वा मानसं वापराधं ।
Vihitam Avihitam vaa, sarvam etat kshamasva,
विहितमविहितं वा सर्वमेतत्क्षमस्व ।
jay jay Karunaabdhe, Jay Mahadeva Shambhu
जय जय करुणाब्धे जय महादेव शम्भो ॥

(Shloka translation: Whatever mistakes I have done with my hands, feet, voice or body, or any works,
Whatever errors born out of my ears, or eyes, or mind, or any sins,
By any prescribed or unprescribed actions,
Please forgive all of these things,
Victory to you the Ocean of Compassion, Shri Mahadev, Shambho)

His name is Mahadeva. He’s called Mahadeva. And they call him Shambhu also. 

So what you say is that: karacharanakritam – by my hands, or by my feet, or by my tongue – vaak kayajam va; or by my karmas, if I have done any mistake please forgive me. And he says that – vhitam avihitam – if I have done correct or incorrect, any way incorrect, whatever I have done, by chance or by mistakes, please forgive me.
If I have done anything by my mind – manasam va aparadham – you forgive me. 

‘Jaya jaya’ means you sing the glory of Him, because You are the ocean of compassion – He’s known as Karunasagara, He’s known as the ocean of compassion, Karunabdhe, who? The Shiva. The Shiva aspect of God is karuna, and you ask  for it. You have to hold your ears and ask for forgiveness, that, forgive me, if I have, by any mistakes, said anything, or done anything, You just forgive me. Now remove your [hands] from the other side now, you put like this. You remove and put like this, yes.

It’s ok now. Because He’s in the heart, and we are always making mistakes. It is our ego which doesn’t make us ask for forgiveness. Because it is said that, “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them, those who trespass against us.” So the first part is “forgive us our trespasses” is at the heart level, but when you come to the Agnya, then you say that, “As we forgive them, those that trespass against us.” then your Agnya is released.

First of all you ask for forgiveness, and you then forgive here, so that both the chakras are relieved. See? Hold your ears, all of you. Start! Come along! Do it like this! First of all like this! Then go on like this; then again like this; then you put your hands like this. But with the feeling that you are asking for forgiveness. How it improves, just see: how it relaxes. Are you feeling better now?

Seeker: I’m good.

Shri Mataji: You too hold your ears. Ask for forgiveness from God, for that, all kinds of things, whatever you have done. Hold it like this! Hold this portion (the earlobe) like this, with this finger here; hold it, pull it down, yes. Now push it on the other side, and ask for forgiveness: forgive us! 

(Mother takes the mantra – “Aham sakshat Karunanidhi”, meaning “I am the Ocean of Compassion”)
Karunanidhi…Aham sakshat Karunanidhi, Aham sakshat Karunanidhi, Aham sakshat Karunanidhi, Aham sakshat…Haaa!


Seeker: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Haaaaa! It’s good now. Now on the Agnya. On the Agnya it has come, see now. Everybody’s Kundalini is on the Agnya. Now, on the Agnya you [must] forgive others. Now will you forgive, for today? If you don’t forgive, all of us are going to catch the thing. You just say, “I forgive. Alright, I forgive.” Say like that, alright? You should all say. You should say in your hearts that, “We forgive everyone. Those who have tortured or troubled us, forgive.” Sharda, you too!

Mrs. Sharda Devi: Yes Mata. Today I really was very upset. (?)

Shri Mataji: Now you forget; forgive, forgive, forgive! Forgive, just forgive! That’s going to give you the Agnya.
Ravi: Mai, aap bolte me ki mai us ko waise chod do  (6.00 ???) 

Shri Mataji: Abhi chod do tum! Responsibility tumhari nahi! (Hindi: Now leave it! It’s not your responsibility!) Forgive! Responsibility tumhari nahi! Kya karne tha? (Hindi: What to do?)

Ravi: Us ka tabiyat itna karab hai, usko phone ek bar karega.

Shri Mataji: Abhi, wo apne karma … (??)

Ravi: Ha ji, magar, kya me mere sath rehesetao, I mean, can I live with my conscience.

Shri Mataji: Conscience is the point, you see. ???? anadhikar cheshta hai na tumhari. Anadhikar cheshta ho jayega. Abhi dekho, abhi ek admi hai…there’s a man, who’s trying to murder, supposing, him. And he comes and asks  Me, “Mataji, have you seen Bogdan?” Now, this is anadhikar, unauthorized. I am not to tell him. That’s not my job. See that? You cannot correct him.

Ravi: No, I can’t
Shri Mataji: Then forget it. Because that’s the only way you can save him. Otherwise, you’ll be harming yourself. You leave it to  Me. Can’t you do that? That’s all, that’s all,  you save yourself.
Ravi: Because it becomes very difficult when he comes and says, “O mere beta” (Oh my son…)

Shri Mataji: But,  you leave it to  Me. Decide on that. You have to react. There’s a very good story of Radha and Krishna,  on this point [regarding] what is sin and what is not a sin, for Her.  And punya is the opposite of sin, what should we sad?  [in English]? 

What did you take out the word ‘punya’ Gavin?

Sheila (from Harrow): Opposite of sin?
Shri Mataji:Opposite of sin.

Sheila (from Harrow): Virtue.
Shri Mataji: No, but virtue, no, but the blessing that you get out  of virtue.
Yogis: Grace
Shri Mataji: But grace is like a force, isn’t it?  But graces, you can say blessings.
Mrs. Sharda Devi: But there’s no equivalent word.
Shri Mataji: Equivalent is not there, alright,  about, about the same – as if you accumulate that.
Yogi: Merit.
Mrs Sharda Devi: But you see, here ‘merit’ is not like, suppose a person comes first in the class you say ‘merit’. 

Shri Mataji: Spiritual, spiritual. You can say, ‘Spiritual merit’ : spiritual merits that you have achieved. Punyas, are spiritual merits that you have achieved, alright?
Ravi: Because otherwise, merit seems to imply a sense of competition.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. Yes, yes. So this is the spiritual merit you can say, that you have achieved. Punyas, I will use the word ‘punya’ you see, so that I don’t have to use that.
So, there was a thing: how to get punyas, you see. Like, this boy is in a conflict: what should he do about his father? What should  you do about somebody like that? So I said, “Leave it to  Me. Just forget about it. Right now, leave it to God. We’ll manage everything.” But now, when I say that this is so, then one may say that, “What about the punyas?” You see? What about the merit that you have to achieve in spiritual life – whatever happens to that? There’s a very nice story about Radha and Krishna, is a very nice one,  it’s symbolic.

When Krishna went away to Dwarika as a king, Radha stayed back with gopis and gopas, her followers and, She stayed there. She didn’t go with Him, She stayed down. And Krishna, being a politician – so, you see, He’s the Divine politician – and He had to do lots of things by which He had to move in a way that would give sort of protection to many women who were arrested by one horrible king. And these women He liberated from that prison. And when He brought them , everybody started saying to these women that, “You are not married to Him, and He’s using you just for His purpose.” You see, in those days also there were horrible people. So He then said to them, “Alright, you are all married to me, I am your husband.” You see, He is a God. You should understand that, when He says that, it’s a very different thing because He doesn’t commit any sin. He being God, He doesn’t commit any sin. He doesn’t touch them, nothing. But for the sake that, after all, relationship is that He’s the God; and that He is the one who has married them, so that nobody can say about these women that, “How is it that you are staying with that man, and how is it that He’s not using you? How is it possible? Under what relationship you are together?” 

So, at that time, once, it so happened,  He had also another five wives. The first one was  Rukmini. And these are all, actually, the five elements [which] are described. Five elements, are symbolic. And these sixteen thousand women are the nadis, are the centres, the nerve centres from the Vishuddhi Chakra. Because He has sixteen [sub-]chakras, you see; so sixteen-thousand: there are sixteen into thousand of the Sahasrara – sixteen-thousand nadis. It’s the symbolic style, which you should understand. 

So you see, one day what happened, this Narada, who is the one who creates problems from here to hell, he comes and tells these women that, “You see, He doesn’t love you. He really only loves Radha, and that is His wife, and She is everything to Him and that is Her power. You all are good for nothing! He doesn’t care for you, it is She only He cares for!” So they said, “How do you know this?” He said, “You go and ask Him.” So they came and asked Him, “Do you really love us, or you love Her only? You do not love us fully, You only love Her.” And like that, you see, they were saying.

So He said, “Oh God! I have got a terrible pain in my stomach now!” He was a diplomat, He used to play diplomacy. “It’s a very bad pain in the stomach and I don’t know how to get cured.” So they said, “Is there no cure?” He said, “There is a cure: one cure is that you take out the dust of your feet and put on my head, then I’ll be alright.”  “That’s too much…” (break in recording)  “…because you are trying to take out our punyas!” Because if you take out [from]  our feet, I mean, you are not even supposed to put your feet towards Him, “and here you want to take out the dust and put on Your head? This is very nice! Not [only] that you don’t love us, but also you want to take out our punyas and that’s why you are doing these things, and we are not going to give you the dust of our feet.” So He was very, very naughty I should say, but the pain would not go! 

So He said, “Now from where to get the dust of their feet?” So He went to His disciples and bhaktas as they call it [and] they said, “No, how can we do that?” “But He said He wants it, so what’s the harm in giving?” They said, “No, no, we can’t do that. We can’t give away our punyas. How can we lose our merits? How can we?” 

So, then He said, “You’d better go to Radha and ask.” So Narada went to Radha; She was in Vrindavan, far away. He went there, and he said that – you see, … it’s all attention moving, you see, it’s all attention. Narada is also a character that creates problems out of everything: within ourselves, this is all yourself I am describing, within yourself. So he went to Radha, and he said, “Radha, there’s a problem.” She said, “What is it?” He said, “Krishna is very sick.” She said, “Why? What’s the matter with Him? Why should He be sick? I hope He’s not making fun of you or something?” He said, “No, He’s very sick, and He’s go stomach pain.” She said, “What stomach pain? Then what’s the solution, He said?” He said, “You must bring the dust of the feet of my disciples or anyone like that, or my wife. If you bring that, then only I will have to put it on my head, or I will eat it. Otherwise, I will not be alright.” She sat down, She said, “Take my dust from my feet.” He said, “What!? Are you not afraid your punyas will be lost?” She said, “No, not at all! You’d better take immediately and take it and give it to Him!” 

So when he took the dust to Her, you see the Vrindavan soil is absolutely yellowish, like the saffron colour, you see, it’s a very yellowish kind of a soil. So Krishna saw that, and He ate part of it. So Narada said, “Are you alright?” He said, “Yes, I’m alright.”  Still  Narada was wondering, he said, “But one thing I could not understand, this Radha has no wisdom. She doesn’t bother about Her punyas!” He said, “You better go and ask Her why didn’t She bother about Her punyas? Why did she do that?” So  He said, “Alright.” He took that dust in His hand, He said, “Alright, smell the dust.” You can ask Her by smelling the dust. So, the fragrance of lotus, a beautiful lotus, he felt; in the lotus was sitting Radha and lotus was in the heart of Shri Krishna. 

So he asked Radha, “How is it? Why did you allow your punyas to be taken?” So She said, “See, my feet are in the heart on the lotus. Where He is, He’s kept me in the lotus of His heart. I’m touching Him with my feet everything, now how am I to do punyas and papas? How can I do sin and punyas. I mean, you just see now: He is the One who makes me do all these things, He’s the One who carries,  so why should I worry? He’s doing everything! Why should I worry?” And that is what it is.

You see, it’s a myth that, “This is my duty, this is my…” – is a myth. Alright?

Ravi: No, but the way I looked at it was that the only thing that’s going to dissuade him from ????
Shri Mataji: The best duty you can do is to bring him down in a  way, that you bring him to my notice, that’s the best way, to my attention, that’s all.  Because now, your ego and superego is going down, you are no more yourself, so how do you have a father like that? You are not responsible [for him]. Bring him to my notice, I work it out. Alright? … Ha!!

I want to make you strong enough that you can face many more like him later on. First of all straighten yourself.

You see, you and (?name) have to teach her two children to come up, isn’t it? (?…)

This is for you Bogdan, for both of you.
Bogdan: For everyone?
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Bogdan: I don’t know, there’s ten there. There’s ten.
Shri Mataji: You have five for yourself, five for your wife. She needs much more than you need, take it from me, because she’s combining with them, that’s why. She’s acting according to what they have said, so it’s more dangerous. Because you are going against it, that’s why you are feeling it. Better?
Seeker: Alright.
Shri Mataji: Alright, you get up.  (? name) for him, this one is for him. Yes, you will feel much better tomorrow. Tell him what is to be done.
Seeker: Thank you.
Shri Mataji: , Now what else? Who else is there? Come along! Come here! Sit down, sit down! Take him that side. Michael, let him sit down! Put your right hand on the (?ground).

Better? How is it? Bring water for him, let him sit down for a while.

Now, what’s her name?
Bogdan: Sheila.
Shri Mataji: Sheila, now God has been very kind to you, you have to master the Kundalini, and you have to learn everything, alright? Maureen, Pat, all of them know all about it. So, you must learn it. Where do you live?
Sheila: Harrow.
Shri Mataji: I know Harrow.
Yogi: It’s in the North West (of London).
Sheila: But Mataji, I might not be clean inside.
Yogi: She said she may not be pure. She said she may not be pure.
Shri Mataji: So you have to learn methods of cleaning yourself, alright?

(talking to Mrs. Devi) Right side Vishuddhi problem…Haaaa! Ha!

Krishna ka koi aata ki nahi? Shloka ka ek Krishna ka? Krishna ka vandan (वन्दना: praise). (Hindi: Have you any Krishna shloka or praise?) Harmonium me.
Mrs Sharda Devi: Harmonium me? (Hindi: On harmonium)

Shri Mataji: Because you know.  If you want to go to the false gurus, if you do not, there won’t be the weakness. That Mandy, I’m worried about her much more than I’m worried about you [Bogdan].
Bogdan: She doesn’t seem to be able to be accepting what’s happened, you know. I keep telling her that  You are offering a jewel, moksha, you know, this is what  You are doing, and it’s still not getting through.
Shri Mataji: She’s absolutely [the] blasted type! You know, what has happened is that, whatever were in you, went into her,  blasted her brain completely; sort of her brain doesn’t think. Do you understand?
Bogdan: Yes.
Shri Mataji: It doesn’t go, I mean, the intelligence part is missing, now there. Nothing goes into the brain!
Bogdan: She has being  in thoughtless awareness this morning, but I don’t know. She was in thoughtless awareness.
Shri Mataji: In the morning?
Bogdan: …after we got up from sleep. We started talking because I’ve written to her parents that I want to marry her,  You see, and her sister just came in to say that,  she’s a bit worried about what’s happening, and she listens to her sister.
Shri Mataji: Sister is good!
Bogdan: But she doesn’t want to know anything of this, she’s not interested.
Shri Mataji: Is it?
Bogdan: No, her sister doesn’t want to know.
Shri Mataji: She might also have a badha in her, God knows.
Bogdan: It’s possible. You know, everyone is taking drugs there, so God knows what happens in the subconscious.
Shri Mataji: You should see her. Did she get Realisation?
Bogdan: She wouldn’t take her shoes off.
Shri Mataji: Just imagine! Ha. Here they will give five-hundred pounds to someone and they won’t even take out shoes! Just imagine, how much liberties they take with  Me! Isn’t it? You said she was a good girl and something.
Bogdan: Yeah, very loving family. I mean, she’s never been interested in religion or finding this. It hasn’t been her way to do this.
Shri Mataji: Then such people cannot. I mean, if you are not knocking at the door, God is not going to fall at your feet that, “Knock at my Door!” You have to ask for it.
Bogdan: Can you keep limes and lemons for more than seven days, I mean, has it got to be exactly seven days or more than seven days?
Shri Mataji: No, better after seven days throw away, then we’ll have another set.
Bogdan: Because I can’t remember whether I’ve had them for six nights or seven nights. (laughter)
Mrs Sharda Devi: You can make a note in your diary or something.
Shri Mataji: No, it’s alright. It doesn’t matter. Koi farak nahi (कोई फर्क नहीं : doesn’t matter). Better thing is to have them for about six, seven days: makes no difference.

Mrs. Sharda Devi: This is a Krishna sloka describing him from Bhagavat.
Shri Mataji: From?
Mrs. Sharda Devi: Bhagavat.

Shri Mataji: Eh?
Sharda Devi: Bhagavat.
Shri Mataji: Ha.

(Mrs. Sharda Devi starts the Krishna sloka as requested by Shri Mataji)

Shri Mataji: Wa, ha! Awaz kaise liye tumhara! (Hindi: What a voice you have!)

Wa, wa. (27.15 ) Sara Vishuddhi kati atowka. Everybody’s Vishuddhi opened out?
Yogi: It’s come up here.
Shri Mataji: Agnya?
See how it’s opening out! Ha!

(Sharda Devi starts another song, “Ganga Jamuna nirmala pani”)

Shri Mataji: Good, the Vishuddhi? Everybody is good? It’s saying that let’s go to the River Ganges and the Yamuna. Let us go because the water of the river is so pure that let this mind be taken there, where it can clean.

Sing something of Subramaniam! (possibly because of the T.M. people in attendance, as Shri Kartikeya is the destroyer of Narakasura)

(Sharda Devi sings a song of Shri Subramaniam)

Shri Mataji: Now, if you say Lord’s Prayer thrice, the Agnya will be cleared out.

(Yogis say Lord’s prayer three times as per Shri Mataji’s instructions)

We can have that Sabko Dua Dena, so if you come here. That day you sang together. All of us can say that, then we can have…Sabko dua dena should we have? Come along!

Hmm. Very good now. Everybody’s opened up very much, isn’t it?
Put the aarti of Ganesha first, then we can do that.

I think Sharda, [if] you translate to them, would be better.
Sharda Devi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: If you just tell them clearly.

(Sharda Devi translates the aarti)

For the sake of relieving all the sufferings of humanity you have taken birth so many times, come on this earth in different capacities…
“Vishva me teri mahima” The whole universe knows about your greatness. (Mother laughs)
“Tu hai Ganga Jamuna” You are Ganga and Jamuna. Actually here they are saying, Ganga, Jamuna, means all the oceans, everything, all creations, She Herself is embodied in everything.

Then “Jo bhi sharan me aya, sukh hi mila usko” Anyone who came (surrendered) to Your  Feet they only saw happiness and joy.

“Baitha ka dil me o Ma, laut ke na jana” So,  You have sat in my heart, so  You are not going to leave us and  You cannot go. (Now that  You have sat in our hearts, Mother, do not ever go away)

“Man me avatara ke, kar diya ujjiyala” You have brought light to darkness (by incarnating amongst us) So  You have lit the whole universe.

“Kaliyuga me maya hai, phir bhi pehchana ma” In spite of the confusion of this world we have been able to recognise  You

“Santa jano ki dharati, hai bharata mata”
“Is dharati par aake, dukha se dura karana” 

All the sorrows that  You have come on this earth in India; You are relieving all the sorrows and sufferings.
“Jab dil me aye tab, madhu sangeet suna lo” 

Shri Mataji: Whenever you feel like, you can listen to my sweet music.
“Hoya sake jo seva, ham se kara lena”

Sharda Devi: Now you understand?

Shri Mataji: Just come in now.
Sharda Devi: Chalo, let’s start now!

Shri Mataji: How are you? Everybody is cleared. Still quite a lot?
Hello! How are you? May God bless you.

One minute, let  Me put him right, then you do it (aarti).

(Mother seems to be working on someone who has just arrived or giving them bandhan before the aarti)
How are you?

Yogini: …but it was a serial pain and it was so strong that I couldn’t take it anymore, and then I woke up, and it was very, very interesting. And it was so that I couldn’t take it anymore – Vishuddhi, something came out.

Shri Mataji: Better now. That’s the place. Your mantra was ‘ram’ mantra, isn’t it? He had given you a ‘ram’ mantra? Which one?

Yogini: Shriram.

Shri Mataji: Ha, Shriram. That’s on the heart. But the fellow (possession) has left you now.

Just imagine! ‘Shri Ram’ name. ‘Shri’ lagake! Himmat dekho un logon kya! See, they give the name to the devil ‘Ram’ but even ‘Shriram’ they give! It’s very much daring on his part. And then, what do you think – should I forgive such people?
Australian Yogi: All this trouble from one bear-hug!
Shri Mataji: Never go near these spiritual people, you see, that’s what I was saying. And the first day he was arguing a little bit for him.
Australian Yogi: I’m sure he’s learnt his lesson now, though!

Shri Mataji: (Shri Mataji is laughing)You, yourself, will realise how terrible these people are, gradually. Now many are cured [so] if one person comes from the Transcendental one you will immediately know – terrible! Now he came from Transcendental: everybody was [feeling] so heavy with his catches! (Shri Mataji is laughing) Now you will realise how terrible things have happened to you.

Hello! How have you been?

Seeker: Fine.
Shri Mataji: Oh, that’s good, good; that’s very good, excellent! Thank God!

Bogdan: ... Mandy’s period pain, you know she stopped contraception about four months ago, and she had problems here when  You put  Your  Feet on,  You put  Your this part, she’s normal now.

Shri Mataji: Normal now. But she has got something in her mind now, you know!

Bogdan: Well, yes. That’s more important, I guess.

Shri Mataji: Her intelligence is completely blasted! She doesn’t understand anything! 

You don’t catch from her! Give her a bandhan and ask her to beat herself as you beat yourself, every day. You tell her that, “You have to be alright!” And keep away from the sister for the time being, maybe she is also possessed as well.
Bogdan: It’s hard because we live in the same house.

Shri Mataji: But you are not practising anything now?

Bogdan: I was never practising.

Shri Mataji: You did your medicine?

Bogdan: Oh,  You mean as a professional?

Shri Mataji: Ha.

Bogdan: No, not anymore. You know, I was thinking about taking it up, but I’d like to know more about this full time.

Shri Mataji: Oh, I see. That’s the best. That way it’s good you are not practising,  otherwise it would have been that you weren’t a seeker. You see, that means you are more malleable, isn’t it?

Bogdan: There’s always a chance of catching things from patients, I guess.

Shri Mataji: I’m sorry?

Yogi: He said, “There’s always a chance of catching things from patients.” 

Shri Mataji: Very much! And ego, ego is the main part, you know. If you become a regular doctor, you become very egoistical – very badly egoistical.

Aaaah! Here she comes! Before the thing, we needed her very much, isn’t it? Come along!

How are you?

Yogi: I’m well, thank  You!

Shri Mataji: Oh, good! 

Now all of you have to master this. Cleanse yourselves, as you said; yes, you have to cleanse yourselves. And how to cleanse it you know: to sit before the photograph, put your hands towards the photograph; if you don’t get proper breeze then put your feet in the water, give yourself bandhan; put your mind on the watch: see how it works. If there are waves of negativity coming into you: sometimes bad thoughts, desires, all kind of things come in; so, put another anti-waves on that, and say that, “Not this. Not this.” 

And you should say that, “I’m so fortunate that I have got this. Now I’m going to retain it, and I’m going to go higher and higher. I’m not going to lose it anymore now. I’ve been searching it and searching it all my lives, so you, my mind, please keep quiet now! You have never helped me. You took me to wrong directions and wrong things. And now I have come to the right place, now you don’t try to divert my attention!” 

And it’s a horse: if you master it, he knows where you have to go. You see, the horse also sees whether you want to eat grass or what you want to do. If you don’t want to be careful about it, then it goes all over.

That’s how you steady your mind and tell your mind that, “I’m going to go deep into it.” You are going to work it out. And if you work out even for a month in the right earnestness, you’ll settle down in a very proper place. 

And then you have to give it to others, you have to save others, because you must know how serious it is. These are seekers who have taken birth many a times before, have been seeking, but this is the end of it, and you are going to be reborn. And you are going to stand by it. If you just take it like a, “Oh, just this for me, it’s very good. I’m feeling nice,” then you have not done any justice to yourself or to others! You shouldn’t take it for granted! You have to give it to others. If you do not give it to others, you cannot go deep down. You have to hollow yourself. The hollowness comes by giving. The more you give, the more it flows.

You see, we have so many in Bombay, even in London we have. At least fifty people, maybe more, who have got Realisation, even when I was not having a programme. But they just do not go further with it, then they catch, then this thing happens, then this has happened, that has happened – what’s the use? You have to establish yourself. 

After establishment, you must give, after all, why did you get it? For a purpose, and the purpose is to give, and save others. There are thousands and thousands of people who are in a terrible mess, in a terrible mess, and they are going to be destroyed. And you will be held responsible for their destruction because you are the pillars, and you have to look after them: like the pillars of a bridge, so you have to stand up. It’s not a thing just you take it, “Oh, what’s it? After all, I have got it, I am happy! This is that.” Not that way.

And your doubtless awareness will also….

(break in recording)

…most surprising thing is, you see, when you go to a guru he makes you stand on your heads or do this and that, makes you pay money and do all kinds of things to him. Here I work hard on you, and it’s I put in all the effort. Then, what you should do? Is to give  Me what? Is to give  Me  My children back, those who are lost; look after them, be kind to them. As you are, they are also seekers. Do not neglect them, and do not run away from them. In the beginning you’ll be [a] little frightened: you wouldn’t like to do much about them, but don’t be afraid.

One thing Bogdan, I’ll tell you, your friend is not a seeker.

Bogdan: No?

Shri Mataji: No.

Bogdan: He’s not my friend anymore.

Shri Mataji: Good.

Bogdan: I had a dream last night where I was somewhere up there, and I was sitting here, and I said, “Don’t touch me! I don’t want to have anything to do with you!”

Shri Mataji: Hmm?

Bogdan: I had a dream and I don’t know where I was, but I was sitting there at the table with many other people and him, and he was sitting next to me and I just said, “I don’t want you to touch me and I don’t want you to sit near me. Then he touched me on the foot….and then I think I was with  You, I was like a small child, and I was looking up at  You, and I was sitting to the left of  You, smiling.

Shri Mataji: Hmm?

Bogdan: In the continuation of the dream, I was a small child looking up to  You, and  You were talking to me and smiling.

Shri Mataji: Oh.

What’s his name?

Bogdan: Taras.

Shri Mataji: Taurus? T-a-u-r-u-s?

Bogdan: No, T-a-r-a-s.

Shri Mataji: T-a-r-a-s. 

Bogdan: That’s his first name.

Shri Mataji: What’s the surname?

Bogdan: Chertan

Shri Mataji: Chertan? Cherban?

(Sounds like Mother, or someone, is shoe beating him.)


Chertana shadit ?? These spiritualists are sitting in every third house in London! Anywhere you go there is a spiritualist sitting, they are doing planchas, they are doing spiritual curing, they are doing pentecostals, all sorts of nonsense going on in the name of Christ! 

You have to awaken to it. It’s a very dangerous thing that’s going on. It’s a big war between the satanic and The Divine, and you have to rise. 

Mediocres are of no use, no! You have to come up. 

Sheila: But Mataji, what do you do if you are  living in the same house as somebody who has got positively evil vibrations, and you can’t leave?

Shri Mataji: You put a bandhan to him. They will teach you how to do it. Bandhan, you put a bandhan. What is the relationship?

Sheila:  He’s my husband. (laughter) It’s as bad as that.

Shri Mataji: Take some kumkum and sprinkle it. There are so many things they can do. Alright? But don’t pay attention much to him, then he will be better.

Sheila: I don’t.

Shri Mataji: Good. What does he drink a lot?

Sheila: No, but he’s ?? in all kind of ways. He’s really messed up.

Shri Mataji: Then why don’t you bring limes for him.

Sheila: Well, I didn’t know I’ve got to.

Shri Mataji:  Oh, I’ll give you one, today, out of these limes.

Can you bring  Me a lime? 

You take a lime today and place under his pillow, can you?

Sheila: Yes, I can, but he might find it.

Shri Mataji: He may find it?

Sheila: What about under the mattress?

Shri Mataji: That’s better. 

Sheila: Otherwise, he’ll think I’m doing witchcraft on him!

Yogi: You are!

Sheila: Oh, you, stop it!

Shri Mataji: You see, it’s a witchcraft in the sense that you make all the witches your slaves and ask them to get out of there! Horrible! You should not go near them! Why should we bother about these dead spirits? 

Hah, is it alright?

Bogdan: Sometimes, you know, feeling the left heart.

Shri Mataji: Not now. Then?

Bogdan: What happened yesterday was quite a drama.

Shri Mataji: Oh?

Bogdan: Yesterday night, I thought, “Oh no! Please go away!” 

Shri Mataji: (Laughing) Anything you tell me, all these things, I smile and laugh, you know, but actually that’s the only way you can get over these things: I mean, it’s nice that you do not see the seriousness of it: terrible those! Terrible things. 

How many of them are?? in these groups? You are better now? You are better I.V.?

Is he better?

Yogi: Yes, he’s better.

Bogdan: It is certainly better than when I came in.

Shri Mataji: Yes, put your hand there, wherever it is.

Yogi: It’s much better now.

Lady: Is it not always building up again the negative vibrations? Is it not always coming again?

Shri Mataji: Yes, they do. Because it’s like this, you can say: an aeroplane which is not fully alright, it doesn’t fly very high up. It goes up, comes down, goes up. So we have to repair you completely, alright? So it comes down. But you will avoid all that. Anything coming like that, all these sorts of [things, you should say], “Get away! We don’t want this, we have had enough of this!” They’ll go away. Alright? You have to say positively, “We don’t want any.”

Lady: Will it be alright then, one day, steadily?

Shri Mataji: Not so much, but to some extent it does go down sometimes. But when you know how to protect yourself, and when you know how to meditate, you always rise higher and higher. And sometimes you are surprised, the way you are matured – the things are.

How are you, David now? Alright? Good! Now you are not afraid of them so much.

David: No, very catchy today, but I didn’t bother, you know.

Shri Mataji: Good! I am very happy. And they went away? Then they didn’t bother you much?

David: Well, they went away when I left the place, but when I came down the road I felt everybody had got much better.

Shri Mataji: How was your trouble? Your hands and things, are they better?

David: Well, I think I’ll have to stop working in the things…

Shri Mataji: Actually, it’s like a reaction on. There’s like a blistering, as you get: if you put your hands on some people, you may get a little bit of a blister. In the same way, it is. That’s not a place for you at all.

David: No, I don’t think so.

Shri Mataji: You’ll go mad! Just don’t do anything there. Better get out! Imagine to put you there of all the things! Just look at their brains. Now this boy has suffered mentally, everything, and they put him with whom? Is the incurables!

Yogi: No, he went there himself.

Shri Mataji: You went yourself?

David: I went myself, yes, but they interviewed me.

Shri Mataji: They should have told you not to go there. They are creating more incurables then, if they do like this. You see, a person who is mentally sick should be taken to a place…what’s that?

Yogi: It’s a present from David.

Shri Mataji: Present my!?

David: Oh, just something simple.

Shri Mataji: What’s that? Shouldn’t buy presents for  Me!

David: I didn’t buy it.

Shri Mataji: You didn’t buy, alright. I tell you what, I have to give lots of presents to you. When I have finished with my presents, then you start giving  Me.

(Mother opens the present) Is it a perfume?

David: Oh, you weren’t meant to open it in front of everyone, it’s only water.

Shri Mataji: Good, very beautiful. It’s beautiful! I love it. It is perfumed already. If you want, you can see.


That’s why I opened it. Alright? If you want to see the perfume, you can have a look. 


Beautiful perfume. And it will take away all your badhas. See, after all, how the perfume is created in this world, do you know that? Perfume is the essence of Mother Earth, and what is that, is the love. Anything you give  Me with love will have perfume. And anybody who thinks about  Me, then, he will be perfumed, and the perfume will show that I am with you. Alright? 


Tape 3  – 1977-11-03 Workshop Part 3 cut Finchley Ashram, 67′ 

Lady: Now  what is the (?karma) that allow  these people which gives so much  disturbance to the human beings, they must be very bad.

Shri Mataji: Satan! You see, as the God has to give you love and joy and happiness, they have to give you all the unhappiness. They are sadists. They enjoy that. If you can understand a sadist of the cruellest  way, they are that.

Lady: But how could that appear in the Creation.

Shri Mataji: That’s the problem. What happens is that, at a certain stage, human beings are given a freedom. At this evolutionary stage of human beings that they choose bad. You see, this is the main point.

Lady: Yeah, but how to make the rights in the world then?

Shri Mataji: And because you are free to choose between the two.

Lady: No, but if you say ‘Satanic powers’ then they must get their powers…

Shri Mataji: They are not powers, I don’t call them powers. They are not powers. They should not be called as powers.

Lady: But how can they exist in a perfect Creation.

Shri Mataji: They can! You see, the thing is, I tell you: if you see in a car, there’s a brake and an accelerator, alright? So the brake has to work also. You go to a point of indiscrimination, then you have to be thrown out; there should be some way of expulsion. Actually, it’s the excretion of the Virat. And there has to be excretion.

The whole thing has to be seen at this stage: where are they these people, where are you people. There are devatas on the right-hand  side, there are ganas on the left-hand  side. I am making you sit here, and now it is for you people to put the balance.

Oh, God!   How can I eat so much!

Marie: What  You don’t eat, you can give to other people as  Prasad.

Shri Mataji: I think you [should] give Bogdan to read Gregoire’s book so that…

?? thinks he’s more powerful than Gregoire’s is. 

 So he also sees these things coming. If all the time eating them, I must say. This is such a lot. How can I eat? They are not eating at all! All of you can go and eat.

Yogi: There’s a big crowd of them, there’s no room there.

Shri Mataji: Now how are you? Feeling better?

Yogi: Erm, I still have tensions.

Shri Mataji: Too much?

Yogi: A lot.

Yogini: Actually Mataji I have to go soon. 

Shri Mataji: Get her something to eat. What will you have? What should I give you? Alright.

Yogini: Thank you.

Vince Lindsay: Mataji, there are so many teachers, You know, swamis, sages etcetera, etcetera, how are we to know who are good and who are bad?

Shri Mataji: You have to use your brains all the time. For example, it’s very easy to flout Mahesh Yogi. You should ask him, and he must tell you, how does he do, what is the system behind it; by taking the name, how it works out; how can it be. Better ask him. It’s not written in the books at all that by taking somebody’s name you become trance. He doesn’t talk of God, he doesn’t talk of Christ. How does he relate himself to Christ? After all, it was not created to be a waste. Are they all wasted? Mohammed Sahib, Christ is wasted? Everybody wasted? Only this Mahesh yogi is the only person? Use your brains.

Vince Lindsay: You see it’s only in the later writings of Mahesh yogi that he’s not mentioned God because his system is orientated towards businessmen etc. But in the early days he did speak of God. 

Shri Mataji: You see, actually they come out in their true spirits. You should say, “You are inconsistent! How you started with God and how you finished it off.” Because h whatever  I said the first day, I must say today also. Use your brains! How can you change? “In the beginning you used it as a camouflage, how can you give up God now?” 

Vince Lindsay: … he explains, You see, I’m sorry I persist, but I still have the ?? from Maharishi, you see, although I’m here through Raj. But, the way it is explained now is because not enough people were coming to meditation because they are not attracted to the spiritual thing, You know, the spiritual side of it. But the way he has explained it is that the end is justified by the means. So if it means that more people would come to meditation and perhaps spiritual understanding without the mention of [God].

Shri Mataji: But this is great for him to say all this! He’s handling thousands of people! He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. How can you depend on a man like that? A captain: the ship doesn’t know, perhaps the ship may go this way or that way!

You see, if you listen to him, it’s so insulting. You can find him out, in no time you can find them out, very easy.

Vince Lindsay: The thing is you never get the chance to talk to him.

Shri Mataji: This is maintained! He never talks to anyone. 

Vince Lindsay: Only his teachers.

Shri Mataji: You know, I asked somebody who is a very close relation of ours and a very big man. I asked him, “Do you talk to him?” He said, “No! Whenever I talk to him, I am drunk.” Nanaka said you should not drink. Everybody said you should not drink. Even Christ in a way. Moses was told not to drink. Everywhere it is known that it goes against awareness. Then how is it [when] he calls himself ‘Transcendental Consciousness’ and how can it be ‘consciousness’ which goes against it. Every one of his disciples can drink, can do what they like, they can have three girlfriends or ten girlfriends, makes no difference: that means whole of Bible is wrong, Koran is wrong, Gita is wrong, all shastras are wrong? Is only …

Vince Lindsay: He has done a translation of the first six chapters of the Bhagavad Gita. 

Shri Mataji: And what is so difficult [in that] ?

Vince Lindsay: Oh, no, I’m not saying it is difficult. 

Shri Mataji: No, but what I’m saying [is that] that’s what they did. In the beginning even Rajneesh started talking about God, you will be amazed. In the beginning they wrote. How do you make out a thief? When he comes out in his two colours! Not when he is camouflaged. They have to camouflage. Now, if I’m saying today something, and after ten years if I say something else, you must understand. There’s something wrong, this is inconsistent.

Vince Lindsay: Yes.

Shri Mataji: And a person who’s supposed to be the spiritual leader at least should not be inconsistent, minimum of minimum. Then his own personal life: so much interested in money! How can a person? (?Can he? That took), away other people’s money!

It’s a big organisation: he’s got some of the big bureaucrats from India employed by him. 

Mrs Devi: One of my relatives also, he’s one of America’s greatest scientists, my niece’s husband – he’s running around him.

Shri Mataji: And K.B. Lall! Of all the persons, I cannot imagine a man like him. He’s such a brilliant man, he’s all been befooled by him. And I asked him what did you talk to him? And he said, “No, whenever I talk to him, I’m drunk.” He drinks a lot himself now he’s started drinking so much this man, and also he’s become so hot-tempered , ask him.

Mrs. Sharda Devi: I’ll show you my ?? letter, which a very well known lady in Belgium has written. I’m so glad he’s left our country.

Shri Mataji: He was a very nice, sweet tempered person.

Seeker: You see,  myself, all I got was good from it when I was doing it. When I was doing T.M. I had good experiences, I felt very good.

Shri Mataji: Felt very good? The reason, I’ll tell you, why he felt good. That is true, you feel good in a way. In a way, you do. That’s the camouflage. What happens [is] a spirit comes into you. It’s like you see, if somebody gets drunk, he will say, “I felt very good with the drink.” It’s something like that. You see, somebody else takes over from you, you are not yourself, so you feel nice. To be yourself, without Realisation, is a difficult situation. 

Seeker: When can we know that we do not have a spirit in us?

Shri Mataji: You will know, now, see. If you had a spirit, you would see yourself, separated. Start seeing the spirit separated, absolutely. You will see, and now you will know how to face that. That’s what it is. You will not only know that, but you will know all obstructions within you and you will cleanse also. This is Self-realisation: k It’s to know yourself absolutely: where is the spirit which is come into us.

Gavin: I was trying to reason that answer out: the first thing is that you can feel your own chakras and your own centres, and you can tell whether you are alright or not, that’s the first thing. 

Shri Mataji: First thing.

Gavin: The  second thing is that you get collective consciousness. In other words, you can feel what other people’s chakras are like. And once it starts that you can really recognise that this is fact, that you are feeling their chakras, and you can tell that this is their Agnya that is blocked, and it ties up because they’ve been to T.M. or it ties up because they wear glasses, or it ties up because they don’t forgive their parents for having a fight, then you know that you’ve got collective consciousness.

Shri Mataji: The proof is there! Of course, absolutely. Absolutely.

Gavin: The first thing is that you can feel your own chakras.

Shri Mataji: The first thing for a child also! Anybody! Now you are feeling your own chakras, you see for yourself: now feel which finger is burning.

Seeker: Burning?

Shri Mataji: Ha, burning. Are you getting cool breeze?

Seeker: Slight.

Shri Mataji: But there’s an obstruction that you are feeling on one finger or two fingers?

Seeker: It’s feeling here.

Shri Mataji: Absolutely! That is Mahesh Yogi! Left Agnya, the left-hand  side and the superego.

Yogi: Heart.

Seeker: And what does that mean?

Shri Mataji: Heart. This is heart: heart organ itself. What is the mantra he gave? What mantra he gave you?

Seeker: I’m not really supposed to reveal it. I’m not really supposed to speak it out.

Yogi: He says he’s not supposed to speak it out.

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, you tell   Me. Better tell  Me that mantra.

Seeker: Umbium.

Shri Mataji: Umbium?

Mrs Devi: Somebody else also had the same mantra.

Shri Mataji: Umbium, yes, he gives it. That’s the name of a devil.

Umbium is a mantra…is the left-hand  side, on the heart. Left, left side, that’s why you are catching on the left.

Seeker: Was it given to help that? Was the mantra given to help that?

Shri Mataji: Now supposing he gives you a real mantra of Rama, alright? Take it like that. He’s a devil, and he’s not supposed to do all that. Alright, first of all you’ll bend your head before him and take the mantra, accept it, now you start using that, without authority. Without authority, if you try to meet someone who is so high as that, even queen, you cannot meet her. And if you enter into it, you will be caught, police will catch hold of him and put you in the jail. It’s that same sort of a thing it is. You just go on taking Rama’s name, first you see there’s a little temper, there’s something they show temper, they try to correct you, they try to improve you, everything, but still you don’t listen, so they disappear completely, sleeps off, Rama sleeps off, on the right-hand  side – immediately.

He will also tell you some ways by which you spoil it even more. Say, He will say – if you are rude to your father, something, and you go and tell him, “I’m rude to my father,” he will say, “It’s alright. Forget about it. Don’t you worry.” It’s like that. So it will be all more spoilt. Now he asks you to take the name of Ram, then there’s a devil by that name [so] he comes and sits there. He has got regular armies of people like that! ‘Umbium’ and all these things are  names given to certain lieutenants of his, and he has got some armies with him.

Seeker: But how can a sound like ‘Om’ be used for any kind of harm? ‘Om’, how can that be used against someone?

Shri Mataji: Because it is a name of someone. You see, it is a name. Now supposing you sit down here and take the name of “Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram” – He’s not your servant to come! He’s not at your beck and call! You see? He will not come. You have to enter into His awareness, you have to come into His awareness, you have to rise much higher to be in His presence, isn’t it? How can you just go on calling His name like that? And what happens is that somebody by the name, servant by the name of Ram, only can come. And this servant is arranged by Mr. Mahesh Yogi, and he comes in and settles down there, and he controls you. And when he controls you, you feel nice and happy because somebody else is doing the job, and you give up all your money, everything, whatever you have.

Vince Lindsay: It still creates a problem for me Mataji because even a puja, no matter whose puja , You know, even  Your puja, how would I know that  was not going to harm me? Of course to you, it isn’t, but having been told that somebody else’s puja or somebody else’s mantra would have harmed me, how am I to know?

Shri Mataji: Yes. Without Realisation, you should not recite any mantra, because you don’t know [that a] mantra is not a stationary stuff. Just now, your Kundalini is stuck up on the heart, alright? His was like this: it was stuck up on the heart, then we raised it; so we had to take the mantra of the heart. Only Realised people can, not unrealised. Then we removed it [the catch]; then it came up to the Vishuddhi, then we had to take the name of Krishna. Then it moved onto the Agnya, we had to take the name of Jesus. Then it comes up here, then we have to take the name of Kalki or Mataji, then it comes out.

You see, you have to take all these names.

Have you had [dinner]?

Lady:  Yes, thankyou, thankyou, thank you very much; thank you very much!

Shri Mataji: May God bless you!

Now you all go down and have something!

You see, that is the thing.  So this is the thing: if you raise your Kundalini, then from  her movement  you  must know how to –  which chakra is needed. It’s a big science, it’s a big science, you cannot just cure chakra like that.  In the olden days, (?) master of Kundalini  I can move your Kundalini like that, in five minutes it comes up, in a second it can come up, but in olden days they used to raise Kundalini step by step, you see.

Supposing somebody’s Kundalini had stuck up at the Nabhi Chakra; so they would give him a mantra of Lakshmi Narayan or someone like that. So they used to give a mantra, so [the] guru used to tell the mantra that, “You do this, and it will be alright.” All over. But not now. Now you are going to get your mantra , every moment changes, moment to moment.   Now the Kundalini has to rise!

Vince Lindsay: Yes.

Lady: But Mataji, where actually Kundalini is situated  mainly? 

Shri Mataji: In the triangular bone, in the coccyx.

Lady: Yeah, but is she going up and down all the time totally or is she sometimes…

Shri Mataji: No, when She’s awakened She comes up and goes down, and comes up again; but not the whole of it comes up. You see, She’s made of many threads and these threads come up but to have a Realisation you have to have many threads; a certain amount of threads has to be there. If they are added up, they open it out. But then again it settles down, goes back. 

You see, for example a person who is coming from some of these gurus always you find, in the beginning you find [that] the Kundalini falls down; again you have to raise it, tie it up. Because of the chakras being spoiled by them. That’s how they make chakras you see [damaged] like that.

Lady: Yeah, but when the Self-realisation is [at] the full stage is it then not permanently…

Shri Mataji: Oh, then of course, you are there.

Lady: It is permanently there ?

Shri Mataji: Yes, it is permanently. But Kundalini, you see, is newer – it’s a residual force (?) but, the complete oneness had to take place.

Lady: Yes, it is connected everywhere like a full growing plant or…

Gavin: It starts putting roots up there!

Shri Mataji: Now, you see, there’s one more thing: these gurus show their own powers, they don’t give you any powers. All these people [here] know what is happening within you and are telling you what’s happening: he’s telling you, “This is happening, that is happening,” raising your Kundalini, giving you Realisation. They have given Realisation to people. The one who gave him Realisation was a disciple of mine. So, I mean, it is your power which should be manifested, isn’t it!?

Vince Lindsay: Your own built-in.

Shri Mataji: Your own built-in power should manifest. 

Vince Lindsay: Yes.

Shri Mataji: That doesn’t [with them]. Only by taking [the] name somewhere, you don’t know anything about it. You just take a name, and you feel alright: that’s something like taking [alcoholic]  drinks, for which you pay, quite a lot, much more than drinks. And you hurt your Kundalini so badly. But when Self-realisation takes place, your own power will manifest. That should be asked from a guru, always: “What are our powers?” He [Mahesh Yogi] doesn’t even talk, he doesn’t even tell, he cannot even explain what he is doing, how he is doing it, but I have told you everything. And I’m going to tell you everything! Secrets of secrets I am going to tell you. All the gupta, gupta taram as they call it in the Devi Mahatmayam: Markandeya has said  that, “You know all the gupta and gupta taram.” I am going to give you all that, all the knowledge, otherwise things cannot be alright.

Vince Lindsay: You see, Guru Raj has also said to us that, “You will have no secrets.”

Shri Mataji: But he himself doesn’t know anything!

Vince Lindsay: He says he does.

Shri Mataji: How can he?

Vince Lindsay: How can you tell?

Shri Mataji: He’s spoilt your Agnya and spoilt his Agnya; he’s spoilt everybody’s Agnya!

Everybody’s Agnya he’s spoilt. He’s only talking. If he’s done it, I have shown it. For example, I have met someone only a few days ago, Bogdan.  I met him only eight days back, and he knows such a lot.

Vince Lindsay: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Who first came here from your group? 

Yogi: David.

Shri Mataji: No, David was second, somebody else was first.

Yogi: No, David was first.

Shri Mataji: You were the first David? You remember, as soon as I saw you I said his guru has a very bad heart, do you remember? Immediately! What did I say?

David: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Very bad heart. 

David: He was born that way.

Shri Mataji: He should be saved, all his ?? . But he’s done a very big mistake. He’s very, very wrong. He’s very, very wrong. You don’t know: he has to do a lot of repentance for what he’s done – spoiling everybody’s Agnya, imagine! With what,  – if he (?continues), this is built  in evolution. It’s the highest point for a man to reach it/him,  it’s quite a price (?to be paid). And these people are killing in them. . Killing him in you! Inside here.

Vince Lindsay: But that practice which he has given us, ‘tratak’,(त्राटक: fixing eyes on an object)  has been given for many centuries.

Shri Mataji: No! Not this way. No, not that way. That is given – You see,  the hatha yoga is not to be done by householders, not to be done in London City! Hatha yoga has six things. After Realisation only trataka is to be done, that too, in the jungle with a guru. If you read Patanjali, it’s such a big book. 

All these people, some of them decided … It started, I would say mainly started with this Lahiri Baba and secondly by that … Shivananda. This Shivananda never got any guru, see, so he knew only -he in the first, only, the foremost thing is, to know very little of it; was to know [a] little asanas, that’s all he knew, and he came down [here] with the asanas. He had a big stomach like that, but still he started teaching asanas!

I mean, it is six things together, and that too is to be done with a guru who is living in the  Himalayas, and you have to be a complete celibate person, complete brahmacharya should be there; and he (the guru) looks after you. It was the domain of very few to give that. Very few used to get it, and it was not allowed to every Dick, Tom and Harry, or to anyone; or to the masses it was out of the question! Then time had to come, in the history, that masses had to get it, so I have come.

Vince Lindsay: Why is it so simple for us? I mean, the very name of your society is ‘simple’ yes? Easy. Yeah? Sahaj.

Shri Mataji: Vincent, do you know, everything important is the simplest! See your eyes, it’s so complicated and it’s so much God has done to make it, but it’s so simple to see! Has to be, because it is too important. Supposing your breathing was difficult, you could not have lived even for a moment. It has to be simple. 

Because you are to be evolved, it has to be the simplest – has to be! 

All God sent things are so simple [that] we don’t see, we take them for granted. See outside: you see, suddenly you find the flowers, then suddenly one day, morning, you see the fruits, then you see the seeds sprouting – do you see all these miracles or not? You see them, but you just take them for granted. This is a miracle which you have not seen, that’s why you think it’s too simple. Know, there’s a machinery behind, you have seen it,  very complicated. But, as I say, I have done the cooking, you’d better have it! If you are hungry, you must eat it, and enjoy it. It’s for your own enjoyment, isn’t it, Bogdan? With that you’ll [grow]  so fast you’ll see it, and you’ll know what I’m talking about.

Yogini: Mother, is there anyone that hasn’t eaten?

Shri Mataji: So many are there.

Yogini: Those who haven’t had dinner, please come now.

Shri Mataji: Alright, you go and eat. Are you going, Ravi? (?…). Go down to have something to eat.

Bogdan: Mataji,  You were talking once about God and there are some parts of His nature that are beyond Him; like it’s His nature to be eternal, and he can do nothing about it. That was interesting in the fact that this All-controlling God…

Shri Mataji: And another thing I told you which you have forgotten is, of course these are all things which I am telling you but should not create too much controversy into your mind, but to understand it you have to be much more [subtle]. In that way God has been so sweet that He bound Himself by these regulations to Himself; that He has to be eternal, He cannot change it, He thought that – ‘I might change my view later on, I may give up’, so He said, “Better tie Myself up with this one thing.” 

Another thing is that He cannot take away your freedom.

Bogdan: The thing that came about that is that this All-controlling God has given us our freedom. By doing that, He’s put us beyond His control, so He must love us very much to have done that to us.

Shri Mataji: There’s no end to His loving.

Bogdan: He must accord us the greatest respect to have done this; to put us beyond His control.

Shri Mataji: That’s what I am saying! If you see that, how great He is! How His love is tremendous! He wants you to grow big, just like a father makes you independent, He’s made you independent.

Bogdan: So  He must feel very sorry when He’s powerless to stop us going the wrong way or to stop people going the wrong way.

Shri Mataji: You see, these gurus have taken away the respect of God all to themselves: that’s what they are doing. Because without giving anything to you, what they have given is disrespect to God, disrespect to your dharma, to your sustenance power, disrespect to your Kundalini – everything! Everything is gone upside down.

Seeker: But why Mataji? (? Why should they do that).

Shri Mataji: Why they do it? That is beyond ?? . They are spoiled children. You see, in the body, you have to have excretion, isn’t it? It’s like that. In the whole Virata samstha (संस्था: institution) as you call, the institution of the Virata, it has to have also excretion system, and they are formed as the excretion part of it. 


Yogi: It keeps coming back to heart, left heart, right heart. 

Shri Mataji: Right to left?

Yogi: Yeah.

Shri Mataji: Left Heart is his guru, Right Heart is his first guru.

Yogi: Perhaps he had gurus in previous lives as well.

Shri Mataji: They were rakshasas [then]. Rakshasas,  they were your enemies. 

I can’t eat [more] now. It’s too much. But I request should be no fight about  Prasad. Take it down,I think.

(? name),  go and have something with him. You should be alright because your heart is disturbed.

Turn around. Let’s see now.

You have no questions? You are in complete joy, is it?

Yogi: These two fingers are burning.

Shri Mataji: These two are burning? All the time?

Yogi: Off and on.

Shri Mataji: You might be catching from others. 

Ravi: (says he’s catching on right heart)

Shri Mataji: Kaunse? Is me? Yeh tumhara father hai. (Hindi: which one? That is your father.) Right-hand  heart is the father.

You see, maybe, what kind of a pillow you have? Pillow has to be alright.

Yogi: Pillow?

Shri Mataji: Or you sleep without a pillow. You have a pillow?

Yogi: Man-made  fibres, polyester.

Shri Mataji: Because there’s a pressure over here. That’s why. Tell him how to take out the Vishuddhi. Just tell him to push back.

You do it like this. Or you put your hands back, would be better, here.

You’ve got more of these or not?

But good news, I must say that this is the first time that Mahesh Yogi’s disciples are getting Realisation – we could not give them. And Muktananda Baba. Only one man we have given in Bombay of Mahesh Yogi’s disciples – one man. It’s most surprising. When they said, “Mahesh Yogi” I said, “Oh God!!”  The first time!

Jane, you have to go down (to eat).

Vince: Shri Mataji,  You only speak of seven chakras.

Shri Mataji: No, there are many more.

Vince: Yes, but, how many are there?

Shri Mataji: I’ve exaggerated all of them! 

Vince: I’ve been told there’s seven hundred and seventeen chakras.

Shri Mataji: Yes, so many are there, one thousand are already the…but at least you can see two more here (Shri Chakra and Lalita Chakra), and on top of the head there are three chakras. But gradually you take the basic ones and then the sub-chakras there.

Yogi: This is the special introductory course.

Shri Mataji: Even in mastering these you will take some time! That one is Sahasrara, this one here.

Barry (Oz): There’s a book called the thousand names of the Goddess of the Sahasrara, someone once asked me where it came from, I said, “Comes from the ten thousand names,” And they said, “Where do the ten thousand names come from?” 

Shri Mataji: The twenty-one thousand, should be, minimum!

Vince: Shri Mataji, can you see the chakras?

Shri Mataji: You can see if you go from outside, that’s what they did. They went from the sympathetic, they saw the chakras, and they thought they have entered into it. But when you are inside the house, how can you see the house?

Barry: Nabhi, both nabhis. 

Seeker: I’ve got a four-month-old  baby daughter.

Shri Mataji: Baby boy?

Barry: Daughter.

Shri Mataji: Daughter, you have got?

Seeker: And she’s got really bad wind, is there anything I can do to help her? 

Shri Mataji: You just put your hand on her stomach, and think of  Me and put one hand outside – she’ll be alright. Alright? Try that.

What’s her name?

Seeker: Amber.

(36 mins Hindi conversation with Ravi)

But after all the fruits, you eat this, and then take water. Till you have to leave.

Better now?

Vince: Yes

Shri Mataji: But you have to cooperate, eh? And you have to go deep into it because you have a problem.

And it’s a Mahesh Yogi’s disciple. I was amazed  Myself – first time they are getting Realisation, otherwise none of them. Perhaps  you people have denied ??. And this another guru of yours, such a bad Agnya he was putting up, baapre-baap! This Mahesh Yogi is spoiling everybody’s heart, and he’s spoiling everybody’s Agnya: very nice! It’s like from frying pan to the fire like that! Alright Vincent?

Vincent: Yes. It was hurting a little bit lower down before, but it stopped.

Shri Mataji: Because you have started feeling it now. The hurting and all that you have started feeling, now you will start feeling the pressure as you start feeling the Kundalini move.

Barry (Oz): When shall we have our next meeting?

Shri  Mataji: Now, the programme is: you all should meet as many times as possible.

I have not given you Realisation, have I? 

Seeker: No.

Shri Mataji: Come here. You have been doing Hatha Yoga or so? Hatha Yoga?

Seeker: Just a little, a few exercises.

Barry: Could you take your socks off first?

Shri Mataji: Same thing like mantra. You take out your socks as well. You see, Hatha Yoga is also like mantras. It’s a big shastra, it’s a big  science. You shouldn’t do it, it’s not a novice’s job. Everybody should not do that.

Just see, is it the liver? Heart? Heart first of all, that’s why I said you must have done Yoga.

Seeker: I’m doing, also, this meditation with Raj.

Shri Mataji: The Agnya? 

Seeker: Before, I was doing a little bit.

Barry: I’m just going to take a bit [of  Prasad] for Mataji’s husband.

Shri Mataji: Just see now, with one grace you can do it, the whole thing can go out. What are these gurus? Throw them out! Haa! Haa!

Just see now. Raise his Kundalini! See it. Where is it?

Now, don’t make  noises.

Ha! Ha! Haaaaa! All these gurus and all that. Got it? Close your eyes. But now you’ll have to work, no doubt, but you’ve touched it. Haaa! Come up? (Shri Mataji is laughing) If the Mother’s grace is there, what is there [to worry]? After all, it is written already: when She will come, She will just do it like this – isn’t it? Haa! You’ve got it. Very good. Got it? Done!

Ho gaye? Paara uthara gaye, santa janare – the saints have crossed the ocean! 

That’s what [it is], you are all saints. You must understand you are all saints, you have been seeking for thousands of years, and that’s why you were attacked. Haaa! 

Kundalini  is in the  half coil now See  when the river flows how she throws away all these obstructions. She’s not going to stop for anyone. 

Don’t allow your mind to stop anywhere! Say, “I must have it!” Then you’ll have it. He came with that idea. You got it.

Everything cleared you see: heart sab, sab aoge (सब आओगे  – all will come)

It can be you also – jump into it! Throw away all that! You have not achieved anything so far, na, from that? Throw them away, finished! Don’t worry. The more you will think about them, they will work in your mind much more – progress will be slower. Haaa!

You can tie it up on top.  Let it be. Haaa! Done now! Haa! This is known as ‘paash’. If you read the Devi Mahatmyam you will know, this is paash. Alright? And this is ankusha they call it, you see? All these are described in all of these papers. Huuun!

All of you feeling better?

Seekers: Yes.

Shri Mataji: What’s your name? How are you feeling?

Seeker: Nice, very nice.

Shri Mataji: Nice, very nice! That’s the thing now; [the] river is flowing into you! Good. See his eyes are dilated, see. 

One thing is to be achieved only, nothing else! Is God – Twamekam sharanyam, twamekam varenyam (Adi Shankaracharya: You alone are my refuge, you alone are my desire). That’s the one to be asked for, that’s what you must get and nothing else. All this nonsense, throw away! You don’t want it. Haaa! Huuur!

How are you?

Seeker: I want too much. I want to be happy at something, and I’m kind of in between being happy and being unhappy, I’m kind of like a stone between a mountain and a sea or something.

Shri Mataji: They will tell you what to do. Tell him to beat that Muktananda with shoes! Every day! You see, this is what Mohammed Sahib has told us: you all beat them with shoes. You have to write their names [and] beat them with shoes, and that’s how you will be cleared out. That horrible fellow, he has no sense that he is a sweeper – he’s touching everybody’s dirty parts! He’s going to eat faeces in the hell, that’s what I can tell you, and I have no words to describe this horrible man! Haaa! 

Good. Come on. Chalo, ho gaya? Sab log saf ho gaye? (Hindi: Let’s go. Done? Everybody cleaned?) Everybody feeling better? Bien? So let’s go!

Barry: It’s for C.P. it’s some sweets.

Shri Mataji: He’s very particular about the  Prasad, he’ll ask  Me, “Have you brought your  Prasad or not?” (laughing) 

What about these chocolates? 

Barry: Ravi brought them.

Shri Mataji: Everyone  should have them, isn’t it.

Gavin: Should we make some plans for next week, while we are all here?

Shri Mataji: Yes, for all of you, you should make, but  Me you should exclude. I’m going to try the other side of life, giving their Kundalini jagruti, you see, all those people coming for the conference, all of them. I’ve given to so many Russians: so many ambassadors and ambassadors wives.

Barry: Which conference is this?

Shri Mataji: This is the annual conference of the council. All these nations will be there, all will be represented. It’s a very huge, big thing: seven days. They live in Ganard Hotel and something like that.

Yogi: He’s saying he’s planning to go to India very shortly.

Shri Mataji: No! No! You just don’t go! You are in the greatest mess! You first of all clear out yourself! What is in India?

Seeker: I just want to go to a place for a while where there’s less traffic and less noise and..

Yogis: Go to Scotland!

Shri Mataji: You should be alright inside. Inside you will be alright, then you will not mind all this.

Yogi: You can go to the Richmond Park.

Shri Mataji: Nothing to run away! We have to face life as it is. You have to be brave. This is escaping. You are not going to escape, you are going to face it.

Barry: I think he wants a holiday, that’s what he’s saying.

Shri Mataji: You are having holidays after holidays, now why do you want a holiday?

Seeker: I am being thrown out of England.

Barry: He’s not allowed to stay in England.

Shri Mataji: Why? What country you belong in?

Seeker: Australia.

Shri Mataji: You are supposed to go back?

Seeker: I thought I’d go back through India.

Shri Mataji: If you could wait for some days, we are going to have an ashram there, where you can go and stay. And then you’ll not…you cannot. You get him completely into your hands…actually I’m really…see my husband is sitting there, and he was telling on the phone, “Now have you given me up?” I said, “I’m busy with my children here.” (laughter) You are overpowering  Me. 

How are you?

Seeker: I’m alright.

Shri Mataji: Now you don’t hate them at all? And cut your hair a little bit, alright? Sometimes with the hairstyle and all that also the…be normal, nothing abnormal to be done. Not to be very fashionable, nor to be absolutely careless. Respect your body, respect your mind. 

Now, how are you? Better?

Seeker: Yes, a little bit.

Shri Mataji: Did you do that way? Did you tell him how to do the Vishuddhi?

Maureen: No, it was someone else you told.

Shri Mataji: No, I said, “Tell him how to do the Vishuddhi.” Put your hand here like this and tell him how to do it. All of you can do it. Put your hand like this, at the back. Now, Gavin, you tell him. At the back, and think of God as the Virat. Not to laugh because this is a very important act. 

Done! Better?

Moreover, these fingers are of the Virat, and the mantra of this Vishuddhi is one of them – of course you can say Radha Krishna – but one of them, the greatest one is putting these in the ears and to say “Allah hu Akbar”. Say it thrice, “Allah hu Akbar.” (whilst demonstrating, Mother does not shout but says it quietly).


Seeker: I didn’t really understand.

Barry: Allah hu Akbar.

Shri Mataji: Allah hu Akbar, see, God is great. And the greatest of God is Virat.

Seeker: Oh, it’s Islam.

Shri Mataji: Yes, it’s Islamic. Again say it. Now once you have done twice and then thrice, the same.

Everybody is saying “Allah hu Akbar.”

Now see, you are putting this in your ears, still you are hearing.  From where are you hearing it? Through this. Again, you say it. Come along. 

Everybody is saying “Allah hu Akbar.”

Better? This is for Vishuddhi.

For Christ, you have to take the name of Jesus Christ and you have to take the Lord’s prayer. Or at the back use Ganesha’s – that’s the beginning of, I mean the Christ’s former, I mean  you should say the basis, the bija; use Ganesh, from here. That one is created here.

And at this point (Sahasrara) there’s a mantra written on my photograph which you can read it. Have you got my photograph?

Vince: Yes, I have.

Shri Mataji: You haven’t got it? So take the photograph. Now work it out, and you beat each other as many times as you can. 

Are you feeling better now?

Seeker: Oh, it’s still very heavy at times.

Shri Mataji: What are you wearing in the neck?

Seeker: Oh, it’s taurus. Zodiac sign.

Shri Mataji: Take it out. (?…)

Are you better now?

Not there, now there. Not there, not there, not here. Here you are feeling it, isn’t it?

Which side on the right or the left.

Seeker: Eyes and here , all over. Eyes.

Shri Mataji: Better?  Try to sit in the water, alright? It will help you. Ha. 

Left side catches. Left side catches is mostly due to emotional side [that] means. But there seem to be vibrations at an extreme point. You’ve been to a guru or someone?

Seeker: No, I feel very exhausted because I’ve had a very exhausting experience with my girlfriend; very exhausting.

Shri Mataji: You must be that way exhausted. That’s on the emotional side, you see.  What is she doing now? She’s living?

Seeker: Yes. She’s an Indian? 

Shri Mataji: She is an Indian? She’s given you this experience? (?) Horrible Indians! (laughter) Got no shame! That’s why I say don’t marry Indian girls, you don’t know what will turn out of them! Horrible! Ravi is looking at you now! (laughing)

I mean, you don’t know, some of them are terrible!

Seeker: She’s very spiritual.

Shri Mataji: Very spiritual? What’s her name?

Seeker: Lakshmi.

Shri Mataji: Lakshmi? And what is her surname?

Seeker: Ramachandran. By that name she was married. Ramachandran.

Seeker: She was married Ramachandran, her maiden name was Vasudeva.

Shri Mataji: Vasudeva. Now she’s worried because the name you are saying is of her caste name. So she’s saying now marry my son when you find a girl (laughing). She’s worried now. How do you say she’s spiritual, what does she do?

Seeker: Errm.

Shri Mataji: She married you?

Seeker: We went through our own ceremony, our own marriage ceremony.

Shri Mataji: Which one?

Seeker: No, it was one that just happened, we knew it was…

Shri Mataji: For an Indian girl, she knows that this is not correct. That means she’s not so spiritual.

Seeker: And we both thought (?it was) sort of ceremony again.

Shri Mataji: You are alright, you have a western mind, but she’s a “spiritual” Indian woman I’m telling you about her. And she’s troubling you, her husband; an Indian woman won’t give up her husband even if he’s mad, or even if he beats her; even if he becomes a leper. 

Seeker: She’s divorced.

Shri Mataji: She’s divorced you, or she’s divorced another man?

Seeker: She divorced her husband.

Shri Mataji: (talking to Mrs. Sharda Devi) Dekh lo tum! Certificates le lo, kaise kaise hoti hai aurate! (Hindi: Look at that! You take certificates, how they are the women!)  Give her a bandhan, hopeless! Good for nothing. Calling the name of the country.

Mrs. Sharda Devi: He is very immune.

Shri Mataji: Taking such a big name, nothing, she should have some shame: giving such a big name. Indian women are known, even once Roosevelt said, that they are like a magnolia flower: if there’s one flower in the whole locality, everyone knows there’s a flower; this is what he said. I take back my words about Indian women, with these exceptions also…Haa! Marathi me – Lakshmibai hati patlazawala (In Marathi – ‘Lakshmi is wearing a brass bangle’ which means ‘her name is Lakshmi, but she has no character of Lakshmi’)

Only if he’s a rakshasa, she can leave [her husband].

Seeker: Aha.

Shri Mataji: If the husband is a magician, then she can leave the husband, under law, under Indian law. She has no children, nothing?

Seeker: Yes.

Shri Mataji: She left the children also?

Seeker: No, no, she still has them. 

Shri Mataji: Why did she leave her husband.

Seeker: She never liked him.

Shri Mataji: I tell you India is like a ??

Thank God, that our Sahaja Yogis should never marry an Indian!

Mr. Devi: Why is it? In India, Sahaja Yogi girls are good?

Shri Mataji: We have arranged it so well that no Sahaj Yogi marries a Sahaja Yogi. If you marry, then you bring that one to Sahaja Yoga. But if you are a Sahaja Yogi and another is a Sahaja Yogini, you are brothers and sisters. Before coming to Sahaja Yoga, if you are related, that is alright, but after Sahaja Yoga you are all brothers and sisters. I have arranged it that way. Otherwise, the whole of Sahaja Yoga will be ruined. You’ll be having your romances instead of Sahaja Yoga and meditation. All are brothers and sisters. 

Not one marriage – can you imagine? – amongst thousands of people! Not one marriage has taken place.

Somebody says something and everybody is laughing.

Shri Mataji: It is going to be better than Kali Yuga, don’t you worry! In Kali Yuga in India, one couple is producing twelve children!! 

(break in recording)

Seeker: Is there something for me inside?

Shri Mataji: Then you should do inside her. But then these things should not come into your mind. This should not come into your mind. To pay her back, you must do something to give others.  She hasn’t got it through sex, and you are not going to get it through sex. You cannot return it through sex. You haven’t got it through sex, and you cannot return it through sex. Now see the difference. This is the purity of  understanding.  You see, this is your Mother sitting here. At this time you are like Ganesha’s all of you. Your attention is not at all on the sex, and if somebody has done for you something through Sahaja Yoga, for her, if you ever have that kind of a feeling, you’ll fall, or you’ll be exposed. Never. Keep yourself clear on that. Here, you can have somebody, friend or someone, if you come, if you are friendly before you get Realisation, alright. Afterwards, if you meet somebody, bring one more person, I’ll give them Realisation. What is there? We’ll have another person here! But a Sahaja Yogi,   you will not. You will be surprised, all of them are living here. Ask them how they have become brothers and sisters. I have strict rules.

Yogi: For four years we have been.

Vince: It seems so narrow.

Shri Mataji: No, not at all!  You see, you think that being wise is vulgar. Actually that is vulgar, that is being vulgar. 

Vince: But it’s only vulgarity in the mind, Mataji.

Shri Mataji: No, no. Because you are purified, inside you are purifying Vincent, that’s why. You see, it is like this: now this is the drawing room, alright? In the drawing room, you have to come to sit down and talk. Will you use a WC here, or you will sit down and throw it out? It’s like that. There’s a place for everything. It’s not narrowing. If somebody says that, “Why don’t you allow your child to do everything here, you are very narrow-minded !” It’s something like that – everything has  its place. It’s decorum and decency, it’s privacy. It’s a private thing. You also say it’s ‘private parts’. I don’t know why, but you say it’s private; and you make it so vulgar in the sense that it’s so open to everyone. This is not narrow-mindedness. This is an understanding of the whole thing. Will you call Christ narrow? He said, not [only] adultery, but He said even adulterous eyes!  And you don’t know [that] half of the devils come to you through your eyes and then even if you want to stop it’s difficult, it goes on looking, looking, like this. That’s the worst part for Agnya. Best thing is to put them on the Mother Earth and fix them up. You’ll know this. Gradually they are doing it. Good. It’s alright.

Seeker: Mataji, these people giving us Realisation, but what about the karma that we have stored up.

Shri Mataji: That question I have answered already. That is: the karmas are done by your ego, isn’t it? Who does the karmas? Your ego. If I have removed your ego and superego on the sides and your attention has come up [so] now who does the karma?

What do you say [is], “I’m getting, it’s happening. It’s moving,” like that. You never say, “I am doing it.” This is akarma. It has become akarma. You understand? Karma has become akarma.

Like the sun doesn’t say, “I’m giving you light,” it just flows. That’s what has happened. And now you will say, “What happens to karmas?” I will clean them off, I will remove them off.

Yogi: Still takes a long time to cure your chakras up completely.

Shri Mataji: I have eaten them off, I have sucked them out. You have seen [how] I have sucked them out of many people.

Seeker: We don’t have to work out our own karma, Mataji?

Shri Mataji: No, you don’t have to work out. You get your Realisation. But now you keep yourself on [a] steady path. Whatever karmas are troubling you are still there, though little bits are there, forget! Forget the past! That’s the best way. Be in the present.

Yah? Be in the present. If you are in the present, the past and future are finished and you enjoy. Now [it’s] for you to enjoy: finished all those dramas! You better enjoy now, come along now! When are you going to enjoy? You don’t go on weeping about your girlfriend of that dirty type! Useless! She has no shame! At least, she should have given happiness to another man. She cannot give happiness to one man, what is she going to do in this world? Useless! She calls herself Lakshmi! Such women, we call them as ‘dushtas’ in India. Tell her! You go and tell her Mataji has given you a name – ‘dushta’!

She can’t give happiness to one man? What’s the use of such a woman? She’s become, I think, western. I don’t know what to say. (laughter)

Vince: Mataji, I don’t know, it doesn’t seem right to me, I’ve got to say. I’ve got something I must say to you. It doesn’t seem right to me that  You should say that perhaps she’s useless. Perhaps it was her husband who was useless.

Shri Mataji: Because I know who she is, that’s why I’m saying. Whatever I am saying is through knowledge. You see, I can feel her vibrations.

Ravi: Mataji, why not give her the Realisation so that she makes him happy. 

Shri Mataji: But let me say something bad to her so that she’s cleared a little bit. Alright? By doing that, she does [clear].  You see, h when I do anything, it’s all for your kalyana. Even if I give you a slap, it will be for your kalyan. 

Seeker: Are you going to? (laughter)

Shri Mataji: Even if I kiss you, it’s for your kalyan. Even if I say something, it’s for your kalyan, because what I am is kalyanamayi. You see, I am here just to give you that. So I will see how to keep it all, how to bring it along. Everything is for your good.

If I am saying anything to her, it’s for her good: you’ll find her to be a better person. Do you know, we write the name of the person and beat her with shoes: the person is alright the other side. You try this! Now they have tried it, just ask her. Now they will tell you: they are so convinced. It’s very interesting. 

Now it’s better.

If you think that a thing has to be done, then you’ll know ways and methods of how to do it, isn’t it? But first of all decide it is to be done, finished! It will be done. And it was decided by you, that’s why you are with  Me. Hmmm.

So let’s see!

Gavin: So next week, Tuesday, of course, we could do it at my place….

(end of tape 3)