Conversation, The Mind and its relation to Kundalini, London, England, 1977-11-24
Such terrible things they are. You have to just in any way be positive about it. [You people to come forward]
The problem is much deeper than you understand. Very severe problem it is. They all were just waiting for you people to come up to them and to attack you. That was their whole strategy and they caught you into their webs.
Sahaja Yogi: [Inaudible]
Shri Mataji: Oh God, just disregard it.
Today I’m going to tell you about the mind and its relation to our Kundalini.
Shri Mataji (to someone): Don’t do that, disregarded. You just put your left hand towards Me, right hand outside, it will work out. You can sit that side, here, that side. But not, you need not open it much. Just don’t [inaudible].
Kingsley asked Me that they expect – all of you expect to get suddenly God’s Realization. I wish I could give you that. You should.
But actually, you know, you have had problems – and very serious problems. And they have seen to it that the path of Kundalini is completely destroyed so that you lose your chance of Realization permanently. Absolutely that’s what they have done. And each one of them I find is working on different chakras. And so, if you go to two-three of them, then God alone can save you. And even if He can, I don’t know, because it’s very dangerous and they know their job very well. Moreover, you are so much under their obsession you can’t get out easily.
When you go to them you don’t even – cannot even ask them one question, cannot even talk to them.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: But with Me you’ll be arguing as if they have given you a job of a pleader for them. And you don’t realize also that you are arguing only because they are in you.
Despite the fact you are realizing that this is the truth, still you go on, you see, and waste your time.
I would say, “First keep yourself open completely”. This cannot be argued out. It cannot be with your mind. It is something of the beyond. Keep yourself open. Receive as much as you can. Get yourself all right. Understand. Don’t waste your time.
So many of you touched – you see, just that’s what I have to do with all the force, you see – that you touch the Sahasrara. It works out. You all get Realization so that you get the glimpse of what is Realization and you feel it, the vibrations, to convince you that this is the truth.
But I can’t retain it on my own power. You have to retain it yourself, on your own powers.
Without Realization, nothing is possible. That is a fact.
But to retain it, you have to work it hard. But some people it does not require at all. They just get it and they are there, finished!
Lady (on the phone): Get you where? You get it after, you catch it. [Inaudible]
Shri Mataji: Who’s that?
Sahaja Yogi: [Inaudible]
Shri Mataji: This is in.
Sahaja Yogi: To bring us to the right path.
Shri Mataji: Forget it. Forget it. Forget it, it’s just a [inaudible]
Lady: He has one, he has one.
Shri Mataji: Now today, I will tell you the position of our mind. Now, the idea of mind that we have in our mind about mind, is very confused. So, let us first see what is mind, how are we placed as far as the mind part is concerned.
You can have the chart or [inaudible] Can you fetch the board or something?
How are you Andy?
Shri Mataji: How are you?
Sahaja Yogi: All right, very well.
Shri Mataji: You are all right, aren’t you? And what about you? Better? Yes? Put your right hand on your heart. Right hand on your heart.
She come for the first time? You?
Seeker lady: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Uh, uh.
Sahaja Yogi: He came for the first time after Caxton Hall. This is the first time.
Shri Mataji: Did he get Realization? Did you get the cool breeze?
Another Sahaja Yogi: He started to feel like that [inaudible conversation].
Shri Mataji: What do you say? Yeah.
Is it a good paper?
Sahaja Yogi: I could get some bigger one for you.
Shri Mataji: Bigger one if you can, then I ‘ll do.
Sahaja Yogi: Djamel telephoned last night.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Sahaja Yogi: Djamel telephoned from Algeria.
Shri Mataji: How is he?
Sahaja Yogi: Very French. He will be here on the 24th.
Shri Mataji: Very French! [Shri Mataji is laughing] What does that mean?
Sahaja Yogi: He’s coming for 2 weeks from the 24th. He’ll try to be here from the 21st.
Shri Mataji: It’s great.
That’s it. Did you get some good paper? Is it?
Sahaja Yogi: I’ll get some good paper.
Sahaja Yogini: I placed it somewhere.
Shri Mataji: Now this is the mind by which you are listening to Me. Whatever I’m telling you at this moment you are listening to Me. Your attention is on Me, you are listening to Me. All right? This moment you are absolutely conscious of what I’m saying. You are receiving it within yourself. This is the conscious mind, conscious mind. [Shri Mataji is drawing]
Conscious mind: every moment we are conscious. But when you listen to Me then you take it through another mind which we call as the pre-conscious mind [Shri Mataji is drawing]
… into the subconscious mind. Through the pre-conscious mind, you put it into the subconscious mind. [Shri Mataji is drawing]
Did you follow this? We receive it through our conscious mind, put it into; the pre-conscious mind receives it. This is a monkey. The symbol of this is Hanuman. He receives it and puts it into your subconscious mind. All right?
This is happening throughout since when you were an amoeba this has been happening. And now it’s happening much more when you are absolutely in the full stage of mind development. So-
Sahaja Yogini (positioning of the paper board): [Inaudible]
Shri Mataji: I can manage. It’s better. Now.
Actually, the scientists they believe that the conscious mind is on the top, then there is pre-conscious mind and there is the subconscious mind. That’s what they believe into. But that is not the fact. The fact is that all this is placed like this within us.
[Shri Mataji is drawing]
This is the conscious mind, this is the pre-conscious mind and this is the subconscious mind.
In the subtle form when they are placed in our spinal cord, there are three channels that work it out. The one that is the subconscious mind is worked out through the Ida Nadi which is called also as Mahakali channel, Mahakali channel. And this one, on this side, is worked out by Pingala Nadi which is on the right-hand side. In the center this one pre-conscious mind comes only up to a point, or we can say they go down much more.
Now what they do is to have a loop here and a loop here. And they come around here and this is what forms the chakra. Do you understand now? So, they – once it moves like this it passes over its information, this pre-conscious mind passes over its information to this.
In the chakras it is decided what is to be stored, where, what is to be done. All the decisions take place in the chakras.
Now who takes the decisions? It’s the deity there. Now, how can we know there’s a deity?
Say, for example, in a human body anything that goes inside the human being has to be thrown away. But the fetus of a child is preserved, conserved and looked after. That’s done by Ganesha at the Mooladhara chakra here. He organizes it, he arranges it.
There are many other things which the scientists cannot, cannot explain. One of them is this that they cannot explain why the two chemicals ‘adrenalin’ and ‘acetylcholine’ react in different manners in a human being. They cannot explain.
For example, if one has to augment, that is to contract, sometimes relaxes. It’s a chemical after all it’s a chemical. How is it that by the same chemical, sometimes it augments and sometimes it relaxes? They cannot explain and they have very frankly confessed it that the mode of action of these chemicals in a human being cannot be explained. All right?
But they cannot go further. Why it is so arbitrary? What guides it? How they guide it? They do not know. Of course, now somewhere or other, in the awareness it’s also coming up that there is another nervous system that is guiding this. Now they are coming to this point also. They are saying this that, “There is another nervous system which guides all these things.”
Now you see here is the conscious mind, is half way. And the pre-conscious mind and the subconscious mind meet at a point here. At these chakras, there are many chakras, this comes only up to a point much above the heart. And this we call as the sushumna nadi: Sushumna. It’s this Sushumna channel, you see. The central one is the sushumna channel.
[Shri Mataji shows it on the drawing]
Now, this, these represent outside. Now this I’m telling about the subtle things that are inside the spinal cord. All these channels are inside, out of which these two are expressed outside and they are called, gross form, they are called as left and right sympathetic nervous system. You can see with naked eyes the left and right sympathetic nervous system. But the channels that guide or the powers that guide them are inside the spinal cord.
When you have seen the Kundalini rising and pulsating, these channels work out in the spinal cord. Outside the spinal cord, you can see the chain of nerves and you can see the sympathetic nervous system. Parasympathetic nervous system you cannot see because it is from brain, a little lower, up to the end of the brain, you can say, it comes up to enhance in there. But its effects are up to the heart chakra, we can say, up to the heart chakra are very much there. After that, all the chakras lie in the Void as we have shown you in the diagram.
So, these channels – now you see, mind is not only here. Mind is also in the spinal cord.
To think that thinking is done by mind is all right, but all organs do not act according to the mind. They act according to the chakras and these chakras control the gross plexuses which I have told you. The chakras are subtle things inside the spinal cord. They are not the plexuses but they are the subtle things that control these gross things which we can see with our naked eyes.
None of these Kundalini’s books have described this. ‘Not one’ has described this. Imagine the basic things they do not know! Basic things that there are two forms of things, one is the subtle form which is inside the spinal cord and the gross that is outside. Can you imagine? They have written such big-big books and they have not described the basic things about Kundalini.
Now you can see with your naked eyes. I will show you how the Kundalini moves. All right.
Now, as you see there is a gap here. The gap is much more – I draw it out. You can see it’s a very big, much more, gap. But here I ‘ve shown it in a big way because I want to show the upper part of it.
Now when these two channels start working – all right? – then what happens? If you start a machinery there are certain by-products, like the fumes. So, these fumes are to be accumulated somewhere. So, they bloat in the brain like this, like a balloon and one from here like a balloon. They bloat and then they join together. At that time this bone which is a soft bone in the childhood becomes hard and you develop your identity as ‘I’. “I Mister God” is the greatest. You become ‘I’ and that ‘Iness’ comes to you. Deliberately God has put this thing into you. It’s a very important way – important thing that He has done in a human being. I’ll show you that which is placed here. Isn’t it complicated? I hope you don’t get upset about it, no? [Shri Mataji is drawing on a board]
Because, as I said, to put on the switch is all right. You just press it, it works out the way it has worked in you and you think: “How can that be so easy?” It’s not easy! It’s all built in in you. It’s all there! And it works because I know the job.
Now this is the brain of a man. What is the specialty of a brain of a man and an animal is that man reaches this apex, not the animals. Animals always have a flat [brain]. This apex is reached, why? Because this is the apex which one has to break through there.
So, the ego and superego when they make a balloon – now I must tell you the difference between ego and superego maybe some of you may not be knowing. Ego is when the mother is, say, nursing the child. The child is in a complete joy. Then the mother removes the child from one side and puts him to the other side. He doesn’t like it. So, he comes up with his ego, “Why is it?” He gets very angry. So, the mother says, “Don’t!” Like that. So, his superego receives it, “Be poise now.”
Ego is that by which we try to do something, by which we are aggressors, we plan for future, that’s the same thing. Is the ego that comes out of the pre-conscious mind by which we plan for future, “I must do this. ‘I’ am doing this”, and the another is the superego in which I receive it, “Oh, I should not have done it. It’s wrong.” The conditioning. Or some Guru comes and says, “All right, come and bow to me. All right.” Superego.
So, the bowing of that is superego, asserting of that is ego. So, where should man go? You might say, “Either, Mataji, you become egoistical or you become a dormant personality, absolutely a dwarf. Now where do you want us to go and why God has made us like that?”
He has made you like this, that with this mechanism you start using your freedom. And balance them so nicely in between that there is a space left and you come out.
Without using all these instruments properly, your human awareness has not reached that state where you can understand His working.
For example, at the time of Christ, imagine to those fishermen how could you talk about Kundalini? Was that possible? Even talking about Kundalini in these days to such learned people is a difficult task. So, in those days, to talk to the fishermen was an impossible thing. And those days, we had only fishermen who could come to Christ. None of these College [inaudible] would go to Christ at all, you see, so that was a problem. But now the awareness has come to this stage that ego and superego is balanced and when it is balanced there is a space in between and then the Kundalini which is the residual force here -that I will tell you later how it comes a residual force.
Now, here is the brain. [Shri Mataji is drawing]
This thing flows into this one. This one flows into this one. My drawing is the same as God has made this creation, same as my own work. All right. So, this, you see, this is the Mooladhara Chakra here. Cha-kra. And this is the Mooladhara, the triangular bone in which the Kundalini is placed. Now, this part of it, you see, comes inside and settles down. When the child is in the fetus stage, then only the Kundalini, or you can say this force, comes in. Now what is this force? Is known as Mahalakshmi force which comes through the sushumna.
Now, this is the force of evolution.
This is the force of existence. And this is the force of creation. This is the one which we call as the Mana in Sanskrit language. This is the mana, not mind! There’s a confusion between English style and English – uh, Sanskrit. This is the Mana and this one is the Prana, you see, and Yoga means when Mana and Prana meet in the centre, they say Yoga can be achieved.
This is ‘Ha’ and this is ‘Tha’. ‘Ha’ and this is ‘Tha’. This is Hatha Yoga. Or, ‘Ha’ means Surya, means Sun. ‘Tha’ means Moon. This is the sunlight and this is the moonlight.
Ha-tha Yoga. Then they tell you big stories about Hatha Yoga. You’d better get a book of Patanjali itself and read it and don’t listen to them.
Now Hatha Yoga is a way of climbing up in Agnya. Hanging there, there are two walls here. Put one foot here and one foot there and go on crossing. Again, you come down. Again, you come down. Then you go up like that, up to this point. From here you get into your ego sometimes, superego sometimes. Then sometimes by chance, with great luck, if you could go into this way your attention – I means this is a very hazardous thing – then you penetrate through this, all right? This is the Agnya Chakra.
And then you get in here and hang over here for some time. [Laughter]
Then sometimes the grace of the Mother comes in and then you may get your Realization.
But by doing this exercise, you are a strong personality. And moreover, you have done your chivalry, so you are a great person too.
But this takes sometimes, Johan [unsure] he was telling Me that he has taken twenty-one thousand years since when he was a frog. [Laughter]
You see and he’s still staying in the water. He’s the same as John the Baptist. Twenty-one thousand years! So, when he met Christ he must have been nineteen thousand years. You see that is what it is.
Now ours is a simple method, all right? That is Shri Mataji’s method, all right.
You see this Kundalini is here and She’s my part, She’s my own. As soon as you face Me with your hands like this, through this, you see, these are the hands, you see, hands are coming out, say about this point here, your hands – hands are small here . Through the hands, the invitation of divine vibrations flow in. They go inside. First of all, they inform Ganesha. First of all, they inform Ganesha that, “It’s the Mother sitting here.”
You’ll be amazed if you are facing Me, you cannot have any sex feelings. Try it. You cannot. It’s closed. This door is closed because it’s your Mother sitting here and have some shame about it. This door is closed and Ganesha is fully established.
If you try and do any such thing then it’s a very much punishing style. It punishes you very badly. And that’s why you be careful about this gentleman Shri Ganesha. He is one of the most dynamic as well as a very sensitive deity.
Those now who teach you to pay attention to Mooladhara Chakra and raise it towards some deity or mandala or anything are committing sin themselves. But they are then putting you into terrible sin.
Spirituality has nothing to do with your sex. Nothing whatsoever. Whether you are impotent or potent or a girl or a woman or a man or anything! You can get Realization. But if you are using your sex for such purposes, very difficult. Because that is the basic point and then, you see, Ganesha first is to be satisfied. That’s why in the Indian mythology or in Indian life or in Indian form, first of all, they praise Ganesha because we must first of all create the holiness.
He is the embodiment of holiness. He is the one who came to us as Christ on this earth. He is celibacy. And you, who have known Christianity, why should you accept these horrible, dirty, lusty? I don’t know. I don’t have, you know, such words what to use. But they are monsters and they’ve advised that you should do sex in the name of God.
This is what this point to begin with – first thing you have to do is to establish here because this is the main person who guaranties, “All right, he is the best. He’s all right”. This is the first certificate you must have to enter into the Kingdom of God, is Ganesha. Throughout He is there to guide you, but main basically there.
People don’t like it when I tell them. But I have to tell you the truth whether you like it or not. You must have sane ideas about sex. Because of ruination of this chakra in the Western countries, it is very difficult for Western seekers.
Apart from that, these gurus have done-they themselves have jumped into it. Why do you need a guru for that? After all, you have reached to the end of everything. And that’s why all kinds of diseases are coming up. It is so unnatural that your body reacts against it. Impotency develops, bad relationship with everyone and human beings become extremely sensitive. I mean, even the slight thing you do, people feel bad. You go on this way you feel bad, you go that way, you feel bad.
On the other hand, a person becomes so shaky he doesn’t know which way to walk, “If he wears this kind of a dress, will they like it? If I take it like this, will they like it?” I mean all the time a person is trying to please the – another person. Never trying to think, “Where am I pleasing my Self? Or not?” Because my Self is first of all sweeting you. A very major part of your Self is here because you must look nice for other men to look at you or other women to look at you, that is the first criteria. In this shape, if you’re handsome, you are handsome, if you are not you are not. What does it matter?
You are saints and you are seeking God. He has created you. First thing is holiness and holiness and holiness. Even hundred times, hundred and eight times is holiness that is needed in us to begin with. So, establish your Self there at the holiness.
And you have had. Most of you have had heard about Christ. And even then, the way you have denied Him, this is the sign is of the too much of activity of this side.
Too much of activity of the right-hand side, of the Surya Nadi is that, “I’m doing this. I’m doing that. We must be competent. We must do this work. We must do that work. And we must show on, want and earn so much money. And if the wife is not earning, she’s a useless thing, everybody laughs at her, but if she’s a carrier girl, she’s great because she’s earning money”. All this is due to the activity of the right-hand side. This is all activity of the right- hand side going beyond all limits. And you suppress this part. All imperialism, all despotic, everything comes to this point. This is the Rajasa there. ‘Rajasa’ means there are three moods. This the Tamo Guna, this is the Rajo Guna, this is the Satwa Guna.
So, by doing this what happens? You press the superego so much there is no balance and you start asserting your ego without knowing about it. The part about your ego is that if you suffer from ego, you will never know you are suffering. People even say like that, “I’m never egoistical, you see!” All they will say like that, “I’m never egoistical.” They’ll hit you hard, “Oh, I never boast about myself.” They’re like that. They say, “We never want to praise him.” They go on praising him. They start like this, “I’m not going to speak much.” They speak honestly! [Laughter]
So, this is what it is. There is no balance. We go on, we go on creating things. And in this we go so mad, we forget every kind of balance that has to be. For example, now we start judging ourselves by the things we produce. Out of proportion through the Mother Earth productions we start producing such a lot, “And you must have machines to produce. Thousands of things we produce”.
If you go in a house you feel, “Oh, God! Where have we come? To a junk house or what?” Something dropping from your head and you don’t know where to put them-where to put them. Now all this built up a lot.
So, people like you came in and you said that, “This is all junk. Throw it away and let us become hippies”. So, you went out with others! [Laughter]
From this end to this end, from this extreme to this extreme.
Now here, on the superego side, all indulgences, all this drinking, going to the subconscious, seeing hallucinations. And then also what else? Drugs, drugs. And then also living just like pigs, even worse than that. This is self-destroying. This is destroying others and this is self-destroying. This is another style started, self-destroying.
You live in such conditions that the whole body becomes absolutely dead and you talk of death all the time and then you start using spirits also. Death, death, death everything.
This is death and this is life, you can say. But not the consciousness, is in the center.
Then the Hatha Yoga means this one, ‘Ha’ in the abnormal way that people think of. This is not. This is the balance of both, is Ha-Tha Yoga. But normally, people what do they do, these people who are on this side? They will go to the runaway extreme of these people, you see, they don’t want all this. So, what they do? They will go on to the other extreme of this. And what is the other extreme of this is, “Give up materialism. Give up this.”
And then you become a horrid personality. They’re so hot-tempered. These people try to control, you see, their sex, they will not marry, they will not have faith, they will drink urine. They will do all kind of nonsensical things!
Why should they drink urine? I can’t understand. You see, they drink urine, they don’t understand this simple thing: whatever is thrown away by body why should we drink? Our body knows better than we do! And then do – then they do all kind of nonsensical things also like hanging themselves, you see, upside down and some of them running for miles together. And some of them doing exercises of the extreme type and oh God! They are very hot-tempered, dried people absolutely because the sunrise makes them completely mad.
The Prana here, you’ll be surprised, acts on the heart because heart has to balance this. So, what happens, all these people suffer from a stone-heart. They have a heart of a stone. They don’t believe in any love business, nothing. Wife, they will not see. They’ll have nothing to do. Only one person who has gone this way was Buddha but he was born long time back as I told you to Rama and Sita. So, he could do that way. And the one who is the divine personality who moves on this, is the Hanumana. So, Buddha came this way and settled down here. Mahavira came this way and settled down here. But they forgot that they did not come this way at all. They came this way and they were absolutely tired, they were sleeping and suddenly they came by the same route as you all have come. Because the Kundalini is here [in the centre] so how can she come this way or that way? Kundalini being here she cannot go to the left or the right at all.
When they have said ‘Hatha Yoga’ what they did was to use the Kundalini. Gradually they pulled her from this side to this side. Again, from this side to this side. Again, in the center only. It has to come by sushumna, there is no other way. Kundalini does not rise by any other way but sushumna itself.
But the reactions can be felt on these. Supposing you upset Ganesha: when he gets upset, you get heated. Both centres completely heated and their heat is communicated on both the sides. Sometimes even you will find blisters coming out to your hands. People get blisters.
This Rajneesh, his one disciple who came to us- what’s his name, it’s in the book, ‘Gijere, Gijere’. He had all over the blisters. All over the blisters. And then he told Me, “Mataji, cure me, do anything”. And he gave it in writing, everything he published in the papers. Then Rajneesh people gave him ten thousand rupees to please him, to come back again and putting the dress. This is what it is. Is it money? I don’t know what is it that makes people so much mad after money?
They go to him to seek God. And then they become so materialistic that they don’t mind having any trouble in the body, just to advertise for it. First, he gave money to some women that, “You become naked when I’m giving lecture.” So, they all started. Just like the all manipulation of these – what you call, what you had these – what you had? These singers, four of them who started singing first of all?
Sahaja Yogis: Beatles.
Shri Mataji: Beatles! They started the same way, you see. They paid and made some women to get drunk and then they started singing. So, these women started reacting to that. And then they gave drugs and all that, I mean it was all the manager, the Beatles’ own uncle, you see, one of them, the one, the manager’s brother, I would say. Not the uncle but the manager’s brother was on my ship when I was with pilot [unsure] and he told Me the story. That’s how they managed and now everybody’s like mad, you know. It goes into everybody’s head that when somebody’s singing you must go mad like that. What is the need? If there’s something inside then there is no need to go outside like that. Inside whatever is happening should happen, not outside. They think unless and until you go do it in the full gusto, it will have no effect on this. So, this is what it is. That it’s due to the over-activity of this and the extreme movement of this side.
So, now there are seven channels on this side and seven channels on this side. By these seven channels you are made to pass like resonance, you see. You move from here to here, to here to here to seven channels. Once you go to the seventh channel, you are on the last one, then you are thrown into the Hell here.
Same here are seven channels. You are given chances and chances and chances. But if you don’t listen then to the seventh channel, you go to the Hell again. So, all of them are settled down here, down below the Hell. There are seven Hells also.
All right, I need not tell you but Mahavira has described them very well because he went through superego. He went into Hell. Even Buddha has described it. Worst is Mahavira’s description. And if you read them, for three days you won’t eat any food. It’s horrid. But it is a fact, what He’s told you is a fact.
Now this is – this is the Kundalini that is going to rise from here to here. This is the gap. These are like three ladders. But this can only go this way. So, this ladder is useless for this and this ladder is useless. But because of these ladders they have a loop on this one and a loop from here? And these chakras can be completely destroyed if their activity on these are more. Do you understand now?
Like this, as I told you, like this is the central part and from here one comes as a loop, another comes from here. Now if they go on moving too much, they may come out like that and they become on their own and that is how cancer settles in, malignancy.
The people who are very egoistical can also become malignant by temperament, because they forget that they are a part and parcel of the vast Being. They are just a cell in the body of that vast Personality and they cannot on their own start working. They have to relate themselves to Him.
But this is only possible if this Kundalini rises and comes out and enters into the subtle Being which is around you. And this has to happen, there is no way out. Any religion, anything, any saint has to happen because this is the primule which sprouts in the seed and which has to come up, go up and open here. It’s a very simple thing because as soon as I – they see Me they know I’m there because this is awareness which understands, thinks, cooperates. There’s a telecommunication between your Kundalini and mine. I put my force into your Kundalini. I take it on My Kundalini and take it up. This is the first Kundalini, as the Adi Kundalini, you call it. And you have the secondly Kundalinis. And when they see Me then they are assured that they can come up. And that’s how the Kundalini comes up.
But this could not be done earlier because this was not completed. But when it was just to be completed what human beings did was to press this very hard and before I could start off this, the pressing became so hard – [cut in the audio]
This way. So, now we have two extremes. We have very egoistical people on this side or we have the other type who are destroying themselves every moment by every chance. And to help them, we have very egoistical monsters who have come from the Supraconscious.
Beyond this is the supraconscious and beyond this is the Collective Subconscious. From that and from this, Collective Supraconscious and Collective Subconscious they are. From there you are getting spirits who are entering into your psyche through your ego and superego and they are working out for you. Through your eyes, through your nose, through your mouth, through your ears, they can enter through anything, through your Agnya. They enter inside and go into these and they start giving you ideas.
Now as you had asked Me the question that with these things like chanting the mantras as that I told you before also, you say some funny name given to somebody. All right. You give that name to someone who is a devil, genius – absolutely genius evil – and that evil genius is given a name, say of ‘Rama’, all right? You can do if you have no conscious, if you have no fear of God, if you are just a rakshasa, as they call it, a monster of the worst type, you can give this name to anyone. So, you give this name to someone like that. And then they tell you in your ears, “Call the name of ‘Rama’.” All right?
You start calling the name of ‘Rama’. Immediately what happens the actual place of Rama which is the right side of the Heart Chakra, Rama slips off there. He’s so angry with you for this nonsense that, “Why did you go to such a horrid fellow? Why did you not use your brains fully? Why did you go to him? Why did you deny God and why did you accept him?”
So, Rama slips off. Once He slips off somebody else comes in and that is this evil genius who is called as ‘Rama’. He comes in and once he comes in, he starts working in your right-side Heart. Now what is it? It’s just opposition of Rama! What was Rama? Rama was a very obedient son.
First of all, you become extremely disobedient to your parents. Or else maybe, that you have no feelings for your children as a father. You may go into abortions without any difficulties. Some girl you will sleep with, “She has conceived? It’s alright, go into abortion.” [Inaudible] No feelings as a father. No value for the life of your children. That develops with this kind of a chanting.
Then He was a man known for his maryada, means for his boundaries: how far to go, how far to rule, how to look after a wife, how to look after the country, how to- He was the person who is known as Maryada Purushottama, means, “Highest among all the human beings.” He is the ideal for his boundaries.
Now if you say, “a boundary” then they say, “What about liberation?” Naturally you think liberation is nothing but abandonment.
Now, if there is a pilot sitting here, alright? Supposing you have to build an aeroplane, if you do not put it into certain boundaries, then when it goes high up in the air everything will go helter-skelter. All liberated nicely! [laughter] And nothing will be left out of that liberated soul.
So, there are certain boundaries which we have to put for ourselves as human beings with our wisdom and understanding. That was done by Rama and that’s why those who catch on the right-hand side must know that this is the – something lacking in your character has come to them. Perhaps it might be lacking beforehand and might be it has been added up by this fellow because he must have read your mind and seen, “Oh, there’s little bit in him, little revolt against the father and the mother. All right, put it into him.” Then he starts thinking, “Oh, my father, you see, he’s a horrid. he’s this, he’s that.”
And there was a boy, as I told you, Jean [?] who came to Me and he told Me, “I now was wanting to kill my father and mother, both” when he was chanting the mantra. And when he could not kill the father and the mother then he started killing himself. And when I asked the monster sitting on him, he told Me that they want more people in the subconscious or the supraconscious area, so that they can bring them come into the souls. So, they want them to die.
See this. Death, I don’t mind. Even if somebody dies, they can be born again. There’s no problem because you don’t die. But this is not death: this is enslavement by these people. When you die you go into ‘their’ realm and they use ‘you’ for this purpose. And then you cannot get out of it, because when you are living then it’s possible but if you are dead you are absolutely under their hands. So, many of them that are into your mind they ask Me for Moksha. They say that, “You promised us that you will liberate us from these horrible people” or “You’ll give us Realization.” And that’s why some of the very horrid ones also get Realization for a second. That’s all. Because I have promised that. But then they don’t come further, they just give up. Because they are – because I have promised them so I just do it.
But if you have to continue, then you have to respect yourself and to understand that you are saints. You have been seeking and you cannot be frivolous about it. You cannot be vain about it. But you have to come to it with great humility and receiving power. The more you try to receive it, the better it is for you. Then you will go further and further with it. Because you must know you have already been attacked, you have already been possessed, you are already under somebody’s enslavement. You must know all of you are. Sooner you see the better. There I’m happy Bogdan suffers but he sees at least. If you start seeing them attacking you it will be better than to be attacked and just numbed, you don’t know, you feel very happy. You are numbed like drunken people. Better to be aware of the pain than to be deadened so that you do not know if something is coming into you. Because you are a special fibre and special people. So, be careful about this. Because your subconscious and your pre-conscious, both have suffered quite a lot of damages. Not so much in previous lives as in this short life that you have made [inaudible] with the help of these horrid people.
You have to come very positive into this and to understand that you have to cure. But if you are still identified with them it’s better that you spare Me at least and the Sahaja Yogis.
You have to understand that it’s going to be tremendous task for all of us to work it out. You know how difficult it is. Then, say, you have seen how we were doing it. Tomorrow when you will be Realized, you will know that you will have to do the same thing as these people have been breaking their heads, beating here, beating there and the needles and pain, and needles and all kinds of screwing up that was going on in their heads and things. The way they were trying to push your Kundalini, it was so difficult you have seen it yourself. And which you will have to do yourself and you will be giving it to others. So, you must understand you must cooperate all. And be wise about it. Don’t come into the charm of these people. They have given you nothing so far except for emptying your purses and making them light. They have nothing to give. I have to warn you because most of you have been to such places.
In India, when I started my work, I never talked about it for three years. But then we got some groups which were going outside and we had a terrible time. And those who were Realized did not know why it was happening like this. And I had to tell them about this that exists. I never told them. You’ll be surprised if you read – if you hear my first lecture in America, I never mentioned about these people. Nor did I mention about the spirits that are within us but they are. And that’s how they have brought such a confusion, such a confusion! It was never that bad, you see.
In the Gita, Krishna has said: “Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya ca duskrutam” [Gita IV; 8], meaning: “I have come again and again on this earth to destroy the monsters or the dushtas or the cruel forces, satanic forces and to give protection to the saints.”
But here the saints are confused with them. I mean this Kali Yuga is terrible! Where are the saints? I find the saint has got something sitting on his head. And it’s so delicately woven, it’s very difficult to take it out. Unless and until you all cooperate with Me it’s going to be very difficult to resolve.
But once some number of yours is nicely done and coming up then you will see it will work much faster. Much faster, I’m sure of it. The same thing happened in India. For two years – imagine – twelve people I was working on. And twelve people got Realization out of twenty-five. After two years! So, it’s much better now. And you get it because you are saints. You get it that fast. But you are shifty people. It doesn’t stay. With Indians they take time, but it stays because their Chakras are all right. But they are little – not yet seeking. You were seeking but you went into the cut in your seeking. All these broken bones have to be put right, all these broken hearts to be brought right. And you have to just cooperate and understand that it is all for your good.
Denying is the easiest thing. So, don’t deny. You all have experienced, most of you has the experience of vibrations and you can see there are some people who are here who can feel your vibrations and can tell about it. You can also get it and you can be also of the same type and of a much higher type if you little bit cooperate with Me and work it out. And don’t get disgusted with yourself. One day, indeed it will be like this, next day it will be like that. Doesn’t matter. In any case, you are progressing. So, don’t get upset. I know why you are upset, but that we’ll look after. All right? So, just be patient with yourself. You have to be patient because you have had a problem.
[Cut in the audio]
How did they accept this horrible Mahesh Yogi? How? Why did you accept him? Bending your head before him, why did you do it? Before all these gurus? There’s another one Pia, who came from Sweden-
Sahaj Yogi: Denmark.
Shri Mataji: Denmark. She tells Me, “I can’t accept you as Mother.” I said, “What? What did you do with the Lama?” With that Lama, every day she had to go to him and bow before him one thousand and one time. And she did it for one month. And she wouldn’t accept Me, you see, when I said [inaudible], because it’s difficult to accept the truth.
One thousand and one time she had to do, every day she did. And she couldn’t accept Me so, she went away. Because there was another lama sitting there, I think, in her head. And she’s a gone case. Now she’s having a very bad time but she’s gone. But thank God, sometimes, you see, we have to thank because such horrible people if they enter into us, they trouble us a lot also, aren’t’ they? They divert your attention, they take away so much of your time discussing, arguing, arguing, [inaudible] How can you argue it out? This is a happening. You cannot argue it out.
Still, I’m quite good at arguments and answering your questions. I’m quite good. I’ve learned how to defeat you. And I’ve too much patience. But why do you want to waste your time? Better have it. Better have it. Best thing is to get the blessing soon, as soon as possible. I’m anxious to give you, anxious to do it. What’s the use of talking about food? Better have it. Enjoy it! The whole world is created for your enjoyment, for your blessings. I know you have spoiled yourself, doesn’t matter. I’ll wash you completely.
Everything I will do for you but cooperate with Me, don’t waste your time. Four years we took to create these seven people. Seven. Four years because you must know you are the first in this Western world to be that steady. Many things can be done but only one thing I can’t do, is to force you to meditate.
How many people have had nimbus [lemons] with them?
So, any questions? Of course. Any questions? Then we can have food and then I’ll see their Kundalini. That is the last.
How many of you had nimbus – no lemons? Hold your hands. Have you thrown? Are you better now? Getting –
Sahaja Yogi: After I got one, I feel a space out.
Shri Mataji: Spaced out. That’s it! Spacing out is the point. You never felt that before.
Sahaja Yogi: No.
Shri Mataji: That’s it. Are you feeling any cool in the hand? How is it? David?
David: He just gave up smoking in no time.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
David: He just gave up smoking in no time.
Shri Mataji: Smoking.
Sahaja Yogi: He got a very strong experience of nausea and he just [inaudible]
Shri Mataji: These are my tricks, you know? I stop your smoking.
Sahaja Yogi: That’s how.
Shri Mataji: Yes, I will. Because once you start doing that then I have to do something, isn’t it, to stop it. The smoking has to be stopped because it’s very bad and Krishna doesn’t like it at all. It’s very bad for the Vishuddhi Chakra and for the stomach. It’s very easy to stop. Very easy. You will be surprised within one year’s time you’ll be surprised how much you’ll do things and how you’ll give up these things. Except for few things you won’t give up which I’m going to tell to very few people. [Laughter]
[Shri Mataji claps her hands]
Better now, better, is he? Better? How are you David, mister David?
Sahaja Yogi: I’m pleased to be here tonight.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
David: He’s pleased to be here tonight.
Shri Mataji: Is it? But that’s not sufficient. That’s very diplomatic. What about your Agnya Chakra?
Sahaja Yogi: Well, it doesn’t do what it’s used to do when I was hanging on to you. I think it is still-
Shri Mataji: Pain? Pain is there?
Sahaja Yogi: No pain, no.
Shri Mataji: No pain at all. Pain is gone, completely.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: All right. Are you putting your eyes on the ground while walking on the roads? Or you’re looking at the girls?
Sahaja Yogi: I haven’t been putting my eyes on the ground.
Shri Mataji: You should.
Sahaja Yogi: Oh.
Shri Mataji: Put your eyes because ground, you know, the Mother Earth she takes away all the heat from the eyes, all right? Very necessary. Ganesha is made out of Mother Earth and if you put your eyes to the ground, she gives you that soothing feeling. It’s very good.
Say, for example, in the morning time – of course winter staying here is very cold but otherwise – if you, during summertime without wearing any shoes or anything if you walk on the grass, it’s very good for the eyes. Very good. And taking, you see, cool bath in this part is very good during summertime. Not winter here because winter is very severe and cold is also bad. But a day when there is quite hot, it’s so hot you can bear it. Then you should do it. It’s very good for the eyes.
There are many things which are good for eyes. But the best thing is to pay no attention to anybody’s eyes because you catch from everybody’s eyes. Here every man like a, you see, watch tower is going on. What are you looking at? Where are you looking? Where are you going? Watching whom? It’s two attitudes. One is, “How many are looking at me” and “How many I have to look at”.
It’s a mad world. It’s such a loss of energy. Eyes have nothing to do with sex. It’s perversion. Absolutely perversion. That’s why Christ has very clearly said that, “I’m not talking of adultery but I’m talking about eyes that are adulterous.” We should not have adulterous eyes. [Matthew 5:27-28; Peter 2:14]
Eyes are very important. You see, they are on the Agnya Chakra. They are the windows. See, from the eyes it should be only going, nothing coming. It should be so, such a clear eye that from the eyes it’s only going to others. Absolutely it should be clear. Nothing taking in. Then it’s all right, you can look at people. Even I don’t look at people because sometimes I think that they might faint or they might get a Kundalini suddenly up and all that. That’s why I’m little bit worried about that might happen with Me, because so much love also very few people can take in, you see.
Eyes should be absolutely clear, going outward, not receiving anything into the eyes from others because what you receive is dirt and filth. This is how you receive all the spirits from the eyes and they go into yourself. Most of these gurus touch your Agnya and put the spirits into it through this.
That’s why, you see, Mohammad Sahib said, “Never bend this before anybody else.” If you have bent this before anybody else, but a person who is really an authority then all your – this is the sign of your human – of you being a human being. And when you bend this before anybody else, then they hit you hard and they come into you and they work it out.
That’s enough for everyone, I think. Be silent.
How are you now Henri [unsure]? Better?
Sahaja Yogi: Hum. Terrible.
Shri Mataji: Alex is much better now. See how he was, poor thing, that Lama of [inaudible] he has tortured him completely. He is supposed to be a Lama and the things he did to his wife, it’s terrible! It’s all horrible people. Beat them with shoes and throw them away in the sea! They want your women, they want your money, they want everything. They are looters.
Better? How are you? Now don’t start condemning yourself too much. You are not to condemn yourself. Love yourself, respect yourself. You must respect. Not to condemn but love and respect because you are the- the chosen ones. You are chosen. Not to condemn. Forget the past, finished! Forget it. Now, don’t think about all the things, “I did this in nineteen hundred and nine.” [Laughter]
That’s [inaudible]! I do my duty isn’t it? [Laughter]
And that’s why you don’t have any questions.
Ah! Don’t do all that. It’s good for nothing. Useless things. Finished is finished. Past is past. Is lost. And future doesn’t exist. So, enjoy the present. The present you must enjoy. The present is most enjoyable.
Hum. Good. Myriam, what do you say? Better?
Myriam is a born Realized person. Since she has advantages over you that she doesn’t catch much. And if she catches things, she throws away in no time. We have another one you have seen is Kevin. They’re many people in this world, there are many people who have – who are born Realized now. And many children are born Realized, many children. I mean, so many of them that you’ll be surprised! Now, most of the children we see now are born Realized. They are all coming down great people, then but you are the foundation. They are all going to come down to Sahaja Yoga. All of them are going to help us within ten years, you’ll see they’ll be all standing there. They all know about Kundalini.
For example, now, Kevin, you don’t have to tell him. He knows everything about Kundalini, Kundalini, everything, he will tell you about. First time he came to see Me, he knew everything about Me.
And I went up and he said, “How did She go up?” She said, “Why? She went by staircase.” He said, “But where is the red carpet? You must spread some nice carpet for God. What do you think you are? And what She is? You’ve done nothing?” Like that, you see. He knows all about Me, he knows all about Kundalini. He is born like that.
My own grand-children are like that, Realized. And when they were very young about six months age, two grand-daughters, they used to sleep with Me in the night. They would get up in the morning and start sucking my feet, just fallen there for half an hour. And their mother would come and say, “What? What are they doing, Mommy? I can’t understand. What are they doing to you?” Because they could feel it.
They talk like that. They have seen Me. My grand-daughters have seen Me. They talk like that. They’ll understand everything. They know about Kundalini. Even a little one which is newly born one, she was hardly, I think, four months or five months, you see, she had just started crawling. So, one of the Sahaja Yogi had come, you see. So, she saw him; she was at my feet. She came down and starting hitting him on his Agnya and his Agnya opened out.
They understand Me because it happened to them inside and they know where is the obstruction and they work it out.
Only thing you people, all of you, should decide about yourself, to make yourself strong as I said, each one of you. Don’t depend on others. You yourself all know and then it will work out.
It’s good now. And what about food? They can have?
Then we’ll have a little session of this.
Humm, put a bandhan on the liver. Right hand, right hand, all right? She’s come for the first time? You told Me- [Laughter]
Sahaja Yogi: She was here before, Mother, but she’s always kept in the background. [Laughter]
Shri Mataji: I had never seen her before that’s what I was thinking… Come here, come here. She’s very good. Sit down, sit down, sit down facing that side, you see, facing that side. Look that side. Sit down, sit down properly. Can you sit on your foot? Ha, like that. Sit down.
All the machinery starts. All right? [Laughter]
Now, tell Me. All of you who are Realized, now let’s see. [Inaudible] come along, when you will give, then only it will flow, it’s not going to be given to you free. You have to work it. Come along now. Tell Me.
Sahaja Yogini: [Hindi?].
Shri Mataji: This is, that’s it. How about – where is My hand? On the Vishuddhi Chakra. Just my hand is there and you are feeling that. She has a problem there. Everybody is getting it on these fingers? Burning? See. What’s wrong with you? You are all right, you can feel it. Come along now. How are you? Feeling it?
Sahaja Yogi: I feel she has it on this one.
Shri Mataji: Which one? This one you are feeling? Put a bandhan to yourself and see now. Work on your own. They can, at least her [unsure] It just, just increases.
Sahaja Yogini: No.
Shri Mataji: Just. Just, just. Nothing is going to happen to you. She’s very sweet.
Sahaja Yogini: I don’t know if I give bandhan. [Unsure]
Shri Mataji: It doesn’t have to. You see, I have done it to men. All right, come here. Hum? It starts working better, all right. Let it be we have… She has fears, you see. Ha, that’s it.
You put your right hand on the heart only.
There is God. And also, we know that He is reflected in us, in our heart as Spirit, as Atma, as Self.
Now when we know about the three channels that are working within us of Mahakali, Mahalakshmi and Mahasaraswati – the three powers of Ida, Pingala and Sushumna which create the subconscious, pre-conscious and the conscious mind- are working in our consciousness. That means we are conscious of them. We are conscious of our left and right that is Ida and Pingala, sympathetic nervous system. We are not conscious of the parasympathetic.
That means that we can increase the rate of our heart, we can increase the rate of our breathing, but we cannot decrease. The decrease or what you call the lowering down of the rate is done by parasympathetic. So, the parasympathetic is active but we are not conscious of it in the sense that we have no control over it.
The Spirit that is God which is reflected in us resides in the heart. The manifestation of the Spirit in our heart controls the parasympathetic. But this Spirit is the reflection of God Almighty in our heart, as if in a mirror. And divine love which is the light of God is reflected in us through the reflection of the Spirit as the Unconscious mind.
So, within us there is an area about which we are not conscious. That is why it is called as Unconscious. That area lies so far away from our conscious mind that we cannot control it. We are not conscious of it. But it acts through parasympathetic activity. How it acts? I will give you a simile.
Supposing there is a power-works somewhere and it is acting through this light over here. You don’t see the power-work or the factory or wherever the power is created. But what you see is the manifestation here and you see the light. But supposing you do not see the light nor the lamp nor the factory but you are affected by it. That is the situation of a human being.
A normal human being who is not a Realized soul is not aware of that factory which is God or the light it has got, is not aware of the lamp that he has got in his heart and is also not aware of the light that the lamp is emitting. But it is acting. So, the Unconscious mind is nothing else but the projection of God’s will through the light of divine love.
I’m giving this simile again and again which is very good and act, that these two powers that are within us, one on the left, another on the right-hand side are there and we are conscious of them and we use them. Out of them, the right we use it in absolute awareness. Left one we know is used as subconscious mind and, sometimes, if you take drugs or if you do something like that, then you go to your subconscious also. So, you can become aware of the subconscious area also. So, you become – you are aware of the right-hand side already and you are aware of the subconscious sometimes when you try to get aware of it.
So, these two powers, that are within us, are all the time vibrating in a wave. And the points at which they meet they create the throb, or you can say the center. Center is created, a Deity is placed but there is no light for us to see or to feel or to be conscious of the Deities.
Deities are fast asleep. When the Kundalini rises – now Kundalini is the subconscious [at this stage]. You’ll be surprised that Kundalini is the Mahakali Power. She’s absolutely pure, in the purest form because she’s not used. We can say part of it is used in us, our subconscious. Sort of you have kept some water separately which you have not used so far.
So, first of all we use the subconscious water and the pre-conscious water and – but we dirty it, we exhaust it. Then the stored-up power rises and does the last cleansing.
But when she rises, she creates a third current. Still that third current when she is rising doesn’t have the light. But when it reaches the Sahasrara and pierces it then it becomes one with the Universal Consciousness. Because what is God is the One who controls the Universal Consciousness. He is the controller of the Universal Consciousness. He emits the light and when this Kundalini rises, it gets that flame on it. So, now all the deities get awakened.
Now you may say that, “It is in the heart, Mataji, you are saying. You are saying it is here.” There’s a confusion people think. But actually, it is all-pervading. Say, God is a nucleus, you can say, or a factory which has a light all over and is reflected in the heart. So, when your Kundalini, a particular individual Kundalini touches that, then this light takes place. Then the heart – in the heart the Spirit is ignited or sort of it emits his – it manifests, projects, and his projections are these vibrations.
So, through this you know the will of God. Through this you have a dialogue with God and you understand Him, what He wants. And what does He want you to know? There are three qualities of God which you can feel through this.
One, what is the truth. You ask any questions. If you are asking for something and if it is in ‘Yes’ then you’ll get too many vibrations. If it is in ‘No’, vibrations will low down. That’s how you can verify what is right, what is wrong, what is the truth, what is not the truth. Now you can know. Nobody has to tell you. You don’t need any clergyman or anybody to certify. It is there. Through your vibrations you can feel it: is this the truth or not? Is it a correct place you have come to or to the wrong person?
Then also the various combinations and permutations of these, you see. It is true but still there is a little point which is wrong in you.
For example, if you say that Christ was resurrected in person: “Yes, that’s true”. You’ll get more vibrations. But if you see now that if you say, “Is it Mataji the Mother of Christ?”. If you do not accept it, you will not get it on the Sahasrara. It should be on the Sahasrara.
[End of tape]