Spirit, Attention, Mind

Finchley Ashram, London (England)

1978-02-20 Spirit, Attention Mind, Finchley Ashram, 64' Add subtitles: Listen on Soundcloud: Transcribe/Translate oTranscribe


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“Spirit, Attention, Mind”, Finchley Ashram, London (UK), 20th February 1978.

…and He’s using us as an instrument. Come along!

As I have said. 

Now Christine had asked me, “What is our surrendering?” And he has asked me if we have a free will or not. All right?

You have a free will of your own. Especially human beings have it, not the animals. You have the free will to choose, we can say, good and bad, righteous and unrighteousness. Now, you can choose to surrender, or not to surrender, to His will: to be dominated by your own will.

Now, she asked me, “What is the surrender?”

Surrendering, as I have been saying, that is to be done in three stages. Especially here in this country where people think, rationalise, analyse; because it’s not easy. If you can do it otherwise, you can do it automatically.

Supposing God, Himself, is sort of based according to your certain conceptions. I don’t know what sort of conceptions you have about God, but supposing you have certain conceptions, individual ones. Everyone has individual conceptions for God. And maybe that you see that He’s so Almighty and He’s so great and you just bow to Him without thinking. But that cannot be.

So the first one is to surrender by understanding rationally.

Nobody is unconscious, nobody is in the subconscious. You are all very conscious as to what you are doing and what’s happening to you. So when you see that the Divine Force is flowing through me, it is coming out as vibrations, it is working out, [and that] you can also manoeuvre it, then rationally you must know the will of that Divine Power which is flowing. Because your will is still not up to that will of vibrations.

Still when you rationalise things you may not be doing the same thing as the vibrations would be wanting: to begin with, I am saying. Now you want to go to the right, but supposing you have to go to the left: for what? For a gain, for your evolution, for your more understanding of the Divine; for the dissolution of your ego.

Now ego and your will are two different things. This is the point I think, perhaps, that is bothering you.

Sahaja Yogi: Yes

Shri Mataji: You have reached that point now.

Ego and your will is to be found out. How? By finding out your Self.

Now, what is your Self? Is the Spirit within you. 

All right?

How do you know your Self? Because, after Realisation, it vibrates and it speaks to you. So your will becomes the will of your Spirit, not of your ego; because you have also superego.

And with ego you have done mistakes, you have achieved no evolution.  You have achieved nothing through your ego. But you don’t trust your ego, don’t challenge it, don’t overpower it, but you replace it by the will of your Self: that’s a part within you.

The more you start learning about vibrations, learning what they are saying to you, how they teach you, you learn about your Self.

For example, a child uses his hands first of all. He puts the hand on a hot plate, it feels hot. Then on the cold plate, he sees it’s cold: trial and error. He learns what is correct, what is incorrect, what is what; actually what is the reality. Actually in hot and cold there’s nothing like ‘bad’ and ‘wrong’ but is the reality: that this is hot, that burns your hand; cold that freezes you.

In the same way, when you start using vibrations, you start learning about your Self. That’s the first time you are using your Self, because that Self is so far not known to you. 

So, the free will to know your Self is there. If you don’t want to know, nobody is going to force you. This free will has to be achieved, yourself.

Within yourself this free will is acting: through your ego itself, but not as ego, but [as] the complete preconscious mind. Oh, there is a difference between the complete preconscious mind and the ego.  This differentiation must be brought into you, then you will know what is a free will and what is the ego.

Your preconscious mind is on the right hand side; and [is] the complete right hand side channel, starting from your ego up to the Mooladhara. The complete channel is the preconscious mind; that you call as the mana in the Sanskrit language. This preconscious mind is the horse. 

Now you also guide that horse. Now the part that guides that horse is which part? Is that which guides even that horse. Is it the ego or the whole thing? So, we should say that ego is known as ahamkara – is the complete thing. And the aham, ‘I’, the ‘I-ness’, that is…I don’t know in English what do you call that? The one, that ‘I’, that does everything. It can see it’s this ego. We can say that is the shadow of Self within you. There is someone who is all the time seeing you.

You are not connected with the Self but you know the dictums of the Self. There’s somebody who’s watching, all the time. We can say the shadow of that, which is spread in our being, of the Self, is there. We know what that wants: when we are committing mistakes, we know we are committing mistakes; if we are thieving, we know we are thieving. That light is all the time there. That is the Self Itself.

We know that it is there, but there is no other side rapport [that] is touched: that is, you see the projection of that in you, but you cannot reach from where the projection is coming. That’s [the] One known as Kshetragnya: is the one who knows the field, the Knower of the field. 

Actually it is the Self Itself. But His vision in us, the vision of that — you can call, that’s what I call, the shadow — the vision of that Self, we are all the time conscious of. It is watching us even when we are alone, when we are in company and everywhere. It is watching us.  This One, in the [Bhagavad] Gita, is called as Kshetragnya. ‘Kshetra’ is the field, and the One [who] is the Knower.

Actually the Knower is the Self; but through its vision, through its power of knowledge it is knowing everything, and we know that It is knowing us. ‘We’, that means the ego part. The ego knows that somebody is watching it.

With Sahaja Yoga, the only thing [is], what happens [is] that that vision that you have throughout becomes the vibrations, becomes enlightened, in the sense that you can have a rapport with that point from where it has manifested. 

Did you follow me? If you have not, you tell me.

Like this is the (electric) light, all right? This light has an aura, or it has a light spread out everywhere. What will you say to [describe] that light which is spreading out, apart from the light that is there? I’ll just call it the shadow, all right? All right?

So the light that is spreading out from there is knowing about what you are doing and you know that that shadow force [is there]. It’s like a shadow with you. You know in yourself what you are doing. And that is the shadow which carries all your deeds onto, also, your Kundalini and puts that, puts it down there. That is what sometimes you call as human awareness. That light is the human awareness as you call it. 

But ego is not the same. Because It can see the ego, It can see the superego. But, what you say is the ‘I’: the light that is closed in this room, by this candle, or by this (electric) light is what you call the ‘I’, the closed one. And this knows about everything and you know that this light knows what you are doing.

This [electric] light does not know. It’s just the opposite otherwise: this light that is inside this room does not know what you are doing, but through this light you know what is in this room. Do you follow this point? Clear? The light that is spread in the room, that light, has no awareness. But because of this light we can know what is in this room. 

Just the opposite is the light of Self. The light of Self knows what we are doing and because of that light we also know what we are doing. If we were unconscious we would not know we are doing.

So that light, or that aura of light, sparks at the conscious moment, at the conscious moment. Like this, you can say: supposing this is the past and this is the future, in the centre is the conscious mind. At this conscious mind you see the light of the knowledge [of] what you know.

Sahaja Yogi: Then the conscious [mind] is the Self?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no! Conscious [mind] is the area in which the light of the Self makes you aware of what you are. Like the gleam of the light passing through, you can say. From the Self the light is coming, and it enlightens the conscious mind. And the conscious mind knows in the conscious area. In the conscious area that light knows what you are doing. And you are also aware of that light.

Gregoire: What difference [is there] between the preconscious mind and conscious mind in the location?

Shri Mataji: The location is: conscious in the centre, preconscious on the right. All right? Preconscious is on the right and the conscious is in the centre.

Now the preconscious mind, whatever the preconscious mind is doing, we know in the area of the conscious mind: this light gives us the awareness of it. 

Sahaja Yogi: Of the light?

Shri Mataji: The light is the aura of the Self.

Sahaja Yogi: It’s like a mirror, Mother. The conscious mind is a mirror for the preconscious mind.

Shri Mataji: You see, when you say, ‘mirror’ it becomes one-sided, that’s the point. That’s why I’m saying: It is not one-sided. It is all-sided. If you just use a mirror, then it has to be one side, but it’s not like that. It is on all sides. The aura is on all sides. Or you can say it falls onto the edges of the conscious mind, of the preconscious mind and the subconscious mind, in the centre, in the conscious area. But that’s the light part of it. The conscious mind itself has no meaning if we are not aware. The conscious mind can sleep off if you are not aware of the light. So that light which is coming into you [is] from the Self, from Self.

Now human beings have that light much brighter than the animals have. That’s why I call it a light and not only the conscious mind, because the animals also have the conscious mind. But your light is different from their light.  Your awareness is much higher and is built-up. How? By developing your chakras.

Say, for example, we can say, or if you can say: yes, even reflection you can say that, in the centre is the light and all the sides are reflecting: then you can use the same way. But supposing this [room] is the conscious mind, the whole walls of the conscious mind. So the light is in the centre, and the light is reflected on these walls.  Now the conscious mind of the human beings, supposing, are these walls and they are evolved and developed to such a point that they see what wrong they are doing; and they can see for themselves.

If they keep these walls clear and clean — the conscious mind — that means you are alert about what you are doing with your conscious mind. Then you keep these walls absolutely clean, then the reflection is very clear. 

But still there is no rapport established between the walls and the light – vice versa I mean. This way it is, for the light knows the walls. Walls also know there is a light which knows about it, everything but the rapport, in the sense that the light cannot do anything about the Self and the Self cannot do about the light (the wall). Did you follow that?

Sahaja Yogi: About the wall no?

Shri Mataji: Of the wall.

But that light exists. It exists. It tells you the reality. It tells you, “This is what you are. Here you are. This is your position.” This light is telling you. This is the Kshetragnya: the one who knows the field. He just tells you. It gives a clear-cut idea to you that, “You are here.” “You have got spots on your wall.” “You have spoiled your walls.” “There is no reflection properly coming,” or, “There is reflection coming,” if you are all right.

Now the better you are, the better is the light, and there is no conflict coming; you are nicely going on. That’s why I say to be in the centre.

Now, you can say that the attention is in the walls. Your attention is spread on the walls. All right? From there it acts. It acts inside and outside. The attention acts outside, as you know, it’s very easy to act outside. But inside it acts only as far as knowing that, “I know everything [about]  what I do.” Did you follow that?

The attention is on the walls. Human attention is on the wall. 

This attention knows that there is a light inside, and it puts that light…I mean, as far as possible, outside also; it can extend its light outside. In the sense that, supposing a person is not realised but he is a dharmic person, so his light is quite all right, no problem. He doesn’t have any conflicts. He’s dharmic. He’s a nice religious man and he knows there is light, he knows, and there’s no conflict between the light and himself. So the aura is absolutely nicely placed.

Now, supposing, if there’s a conflict between this and this: the aura will be disturbed. But actually there’s no disturbance in the light itself. But, because of these walls, it may be looking disturbed. Because when the light is falling on something: like you see the water, and if the water is not steady [then] you see it’s moving like that. All right? 

So, like that, the attention is here (on the walls). The attention, if it is unsteady, then the image you get is blurred, of the light. And the light that you throw out, outside, becomes a blurred image of that light. All right?

So, now we are coming to the conscious mind. 

Conscious mind is the one, in that area which is a very shortened time, very short time. Between the future and the past it’s just a little time, very little time. It’s called as vilamba in the Sanskrit language. Is a very, very, very small, little time, and we cannot stop there. So in that area suddenly you touch the aura, you can say the light, and there you see it. So then you know what it is.

Then again you are thinking about the past, or you think about the future. That time, you know what you are thinking, but then you come to the conscious area and you know, “Oh I have been thinking like that I should not have done it!” Because you are moving all the time on waves. In between these two waves is the conscious mind: a little bit, very little area is there, in the beginning. All right?

Now below that is the unconscious mind, you can say. Actually it is above but we can say, below, just now, to explain it. Like, the waves  rising this way, that way, in between there’s a little gap. And there where, in the conscious mind, you are touching that light of the unconscious mind. So that unconscious mind, what we call the unconscious mind, is that aura, or the light, of the Self.

So every moment you are conscious, you are conscious of your unconscious mind. Conscious in the sense that you know that the unconscious mind knows, that’s why. It’s really remarkable how it’s made! 

For example you can say like that: you come up on one wave, “Oh,” you find, “it’s here.” “Oh yes, I know all that, what I’m thinking.” Then again you go on thinking, thinking, thinking and again you come to the conscious mind, “Oh yes, I know what I am thinking.” Like that the conscious mind is. This is the light of the unconscious mind. You can think [of it] like a waves. All right? Did you follow Bogdan?

Dr. Bogdan Shehovych: Yeah.

Shri Mataji: Try to follow it, you see, then it would be nice.

Now questioning you don’t ask. Just now you try to follow the point, because it’s a subtle subject. And, if you have to understand the subtle, I have to use analogies which are not subtle. So, in analogies, don’t get lost. 

I’m just trying to tell you how to understand what is the unconscious mind within us, and where do we stand as far as the conscious mind is concerned.

The edge of the unconscious mind is the unconscious; edge of it. And there is the attention also. Now I’ll show you.

Now what happens: you are moving, say, your attention. Now, attention, just see it: the attention is moving; you can take it to the future or to the past. Now the attention goes like that. And at the conscious mind, suddenly you will [think], “Oh!” You become aware of it. Your attention becomes aware, “Oh!”. Otherwise you are just thinking, thinking, thinking like that. But when again you touch, at the conscious mind, again you become aware. Again you move like this then you are lost; again you become conscious of it. Now this light is coming from where? Is from the Self.

Where is the ego and where is the superego, in this?

Now this wave is the past, and this is the future. So, all the time you are moving from past to the future, past to the future, like that. But in this jumping there’s a little time in between where you are conscious. And whenever you are moving from one to another — before Realisation I am saying. All this I am telling you about before Realisation — you are conscious that there is something, under flow, which is knowing where and how we are jumping, whether this or that side. You are going this way, that way, this way, that way, all the time. Forwards, backwards, whatever it is. But you are moving this way.

Now, the movement of the conscious mind you can see, but it’s a split of a second, just a split of a second, before Realisation. Did you follow this point or not, first of all? Make it very clear or not?

So we move to another point now.

The attention is moving which is on the edge. You can say that attention is another light or you can say another sort of a — which is the human side of it, which is moving from there — energy. You can say the attention is another energy which is moving like this, on the edge.

It is generated from your liver. This energy is generated from your liver. And it comes out and it is just like a very thin edge, you can say: the attention.

So the attention is recording – where are we. But when it touches the conscious mind it becomes conscious of what you are: “This is me!” Maybe when you are stealing you are not conscious but when you have stolen then suddenly you come back, “Oh God, I did that!” You become conscious of it. So the attention is moving like this, which makes you aware of that.

Now, the human attention has been evolved as the edge of the preconscious and the subconscious minds. Do you follow this point or not? On the edges. The human attention…

(Shri Mataji stops the talk to enquire in Hindi about somebody’s health who has just arrived. Possibly Ravi and Mrs Devi.)

Shri Mataji: Aaye, baitho! Aa jao! (Hindi: come here, sit down.)

Just to explain to you…This is the unconscious mind here. All right? And this is the right hand side, is what you call the preconscious mind, and this is the subconscious mind. The attention is in between, connected with the unconscious mind, also, you can call it. But this unconscious mind in the animal I have shown it like that. Just to show you [that] it’s the unconscious mind I have shown it here. 

But actually, you know, the unconscious mind is a part of it in the Kundalini and part up there.  So it is, just to show you, I have shown [it]. Say, you can call it ‘the aura of Kundalini’ you can call it. But now, here, it is easier to understand (Mother is showing a diagram). In the human beings who form habits it’s like this. All right?

It is like this, the attention is spread out, throughout it. And this area I’ve enlarged it. It’s not such a big area. I’ve just enlarged it (on the diagram). This is the area of the conscious mind, which is a very small area. And this part is the ego, and the superego is here. And this lining is the conscious mind.

Sahaja Yogi: This is in the head?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no! This is in the human being, the [spinal] column, the complete column, the complete thing, I’m telling: the Ida and the Pingala nadi. This is the Pingala and this is the Ida. At the edge of that, you see, is here; and inside is the conscious mind, this one. This is a very small area.

Now what happens [is] that, here is the Kundalini. All right? That is also the unconscious mind, part of the unconscious mind. And here is the unconscious mind you can say, about which we are not conscious of. And I have shown you [that] here is the Self. And the Self, Sadashiva’s seat, is here. This sees. From here it sees all over. It comes out; your Spirit comes out, goes round and sees you. It is on your head, sometimes on your head, mostly in your heart. And it is watching you around. It knows, it is all the time knowing about it.

And this light that is here, we are also aware that it’s there. We know that this light is recording this; we are aware of it. All the time we are aware that this light is trickling down and there’s a little glimmer of that light coming in that little gleam of light, you can say, in the conscious area.

So we are aware that this light is knowing about us. What we do is to, by raising the Kundalini is, the Kundalini when she rises, what she does She rises, because of her rising the attention she takes, the attention she sucks it on herself, on the both sides of the Kundalini the attention gets attached; or [you can] say it becomes like this: a crown over the area. Because the area has increased: you can see, if the Kundalini is so big as that. So you can see it is crowned up now, the attention is. So the Kundalini rises, like this, pushes this out, and takes this attention into this one. So a rapport is established between the Spirit and yourself. If you can think, if you can make it a small one, you see; the Kundalini is a small one, but supposing I have made a big one (on the chart); so the Kundalini rises, touching the attention like this, all over, goes up here, opens it out, becomes one.

Yogi: Because the attention is on the whole Nadi from the Mooladhara up to the bottom? It’s not in the mind.

Shri Mataji: What?

Yogi: The attention.

Shri Mataji: No, no! 

Yogi: Oh!

Shri Mataji: Attention is not in the mind alone. Attention is all along, and is generated through your…I mean it is not generated we should say, but we can say it is looked after, or maintained, or attained to, through your liver.

But the evolution of mind, as the mind grows up, this attention becomes improved. In an animal, attention is not like this: he is just a straight line, from here to here.

In this the attention becomes wider, bigger and intelligent. 

It has both the things fully developed. In the animal it’s just a few layers developed there and they are in a straight line. This doesn’t come up in an animal: this is ego and superego, when they meet, this thing works out. Because of this, closing down, it develops its own awareness. By closing down it develops itself. As Gregoire has said it, as an egg develops. So this is the crust that is formed and it develops within itself. So it is developed.

Now for developing this you use your ego or superego. But if you do it in equal way, keeping to the centre, so there is no increase on this side or that side. Now, what is the ego? Is a bulge out here. And what is the superego? Is a bulge out here. It goes up like a bulge here like a horn! It comes out bulging like that (laughing). Do you understand? 

Now, no use pushing it down and doing anything about it. What you should do is to put attention in the centre here: centre.

So because of dharma, dharma is the one which keeps the bulge there, attached to this; so the proper, proper growth comes in. Up to the Nabhi is the bulge. Then the wisdom and all those things work out in you, and you keep like this. This is a proper, sensible person. But normally it is not. Normally the question will be like this, and this one just hanging out on this side. Normally the person is not like this. This comes up like this. I mean, in the West I am saying, and is attached like to a peg like that! This one is a rudimentary thing. Now where do you take out? Here? This side?

Yogis: No, no.

Shri Mataji: It’s like that. So now you understand what I mean. Now is it clear now? Attention, supraconscious? It’s a difficult subject. It’s a difficult subject to understand mentally.

Then above, the God’s attention is not like yours. Your attention is much more than an animal’s attention is: that you realise. But God’s attention is manifold dynamic than yours is. So when you become [one] with That, That attention becomes your attention: It starts flowing through you. So it forms then another layer – that is the God’s attention – and you start getting the vibrations in the hand. First time you start, in the conscious mind, He starts flowing, in the real sense, and you develop that sort of a sheath here, you can say, and you start feeling the vibrations.

But again, when you go this way a little bit more, it stops there; or this way more, it stops. Again you bring it in the centre and gradually allow the space to be more. Now this is what is the surrendering: is the space more there.

Because you don’t allow this to work out (ego), or this to work out (superego) but just allow a space. So it starts opening out and the light starts working.

Yogi: Shri Mataji, it’s like in Indian music, when they go like that and they come back to the note. That you just did this now.

Shri Mataji: ‘Sum’ that is what it is called as  – Sum. Sum means actually ‘equal’. Sum. But when they come to that point, to the first point, in the Indian music, they’ll go on playing – 16 beats. They’ll go 16 into 10, but again they’ll come back to the same point.; this same must meet with the same, and that’s it. So ‘sum’ is equal. At that point everything must meet.

And when all this is opened out…actually, here I have shown it like that, but you should put the chakras connected to that, in between. This attention goes and is actually connected with the chakras here. So the Kundalini passes through the chakras. You can see there is a chakra here and a chakra here and a chakra here and a chakra here.

When you allow this space to increase more, then what happens [is] these chakras also open out. In these chakras your own Deities are there. They have their own play and they are one with it. So it works in unison. And that’s why the identification takes place.

But leaving this space, itself, means surrender, in the normal understanding. 

Because the dynamic is there. The dynamic is all-pervading, it is working out. All right? It is all-knowing. It is working out Its job. It is correct. But the problem is your attention has not grown that subtle, as to enter into It. When it becomes that subtle — only human beings can become that — it opens out this thing.

Actually the Kundalini adds that subtleness to it, of the subtle system, and She brings it down. And that subtleness gives you a lining of subtleness. And that becomes one, subtle with this, and it starts passing through those subtle areas [and] vibrations start flowing

The more you open out this part, you become one with this. So what? You become the Self.

Now, this Self here (Mother can be heard showing a piece of paper), this Self is the nucleus in the body and that body is a cell in the bigger body. All right? So, you become one with the All-pervading force: that is the Will of God; which is known to this Self, the nucleus of that cell

Every Self knows what God wants, fully, completely. 

So as soon as you allow your knowledge, so-called, to drop out a little bit, the real knowledge starts pouring in, and then? Oh, you can order about! Then you can say whatever you feel like and it just works out.

But because of this, an ancient stuff with you, the lining being the new one, it’s difficult to identify that lining fully with this. If you could, then, you would be just there – no problem of clearing anything and it’s all cleared.

This light, when it flows, this passes through all the chakras and comes out. First the Kundalini comes up. She opens the chakras, makes the place; opens it out. Also, by Her coming up, there’s a little lining [which] comes up. But when this starts pouring down, it covers this much more. But it doesn’t cover directly like that but through the chakras It passes. That’s why your chakras are to be cleared. Because the passage is through the chakras. There are the chakras here. All of them are chakras here. All right? Did you follow this?

Michael, how are you feeling? Put it straight. Put it straight. It’s cold, very cold that hand? You can take it up! You take it up! It’s all right. Close the door, yes. Now, put your hands together. Sorry.

So, today, as we know that, is the day of Mohammed Sahib’s birthday. And we have to understand that all these incarnations came at different times. They all came at different times. And They came as a continuous process of evolution of man. No question of conflict or anything in that: no question. You see, human beings can’t understand, because they create conflict, they have lived with conflicts, with this thing (limbic area) closing down here, this thing.

So They just came on this Earth, nobody’s property. They came as incarnations on this Earth, all of Them. He (Mohammed Sahib) came after Christ. See His position! 

Because Christ came as an incarnation which was the son God, the son aspect of God, and He taught forgiveness. And the Christian doctrine has called it the suffering, and the Christians must suffer! So, all those Christians must suffer, you see. There’s sort of a thing just branded on you. Then, anybody kills, you should accept killing. Anybody wants to hurt you, you must accept. “You must suffer!” Even if you don’t suffer you should inflict suffering on yourself.

This funny doctrine: everybody was surprised, “From where did they get it?” Christ did not suffer. He cannot suffer. How can they suffer? If He could suffer then how was He the son of God? He could not. It was just a drama.

Actually His message was resurrection, but the Christians started using it as a suffering: so they (the Deities) said, “Oh God, now what to do?” So we have to send Somebody else! Now whom do we send? Someone who will be able to teach them there’s no suffering. You have to defend. You have to fight it out! How dare they make you suffer!

Like, I’ll tell you: somebody from Muktananda had come to my programme. Horrible fellow he was, sick. He came and he started saying all kinds of things there. So the Sahaja Yogis got angry, you know, Modi and all that. They said, “We’ll beat you if you don’t keep quiet!” He started saying, “Oh, you are like this, you are like that!” He (Modi) said, “You don’t say anything to our Mother otherwise we’ll beat you!” So he said, “You are Sahaj Yogis and you should bear it!”  He said, “Jolly well they’ll bear you out now!” “Throw him out,” I said, “just now! And give him two kicks! Just now you throw him out, immediately!”

If you had said anything to Christ’s Mother, He would have taken the same cross and hit all of them nicely. That’s why it was arranged that nothing should be said about Christ’s Mother. Because that would be the sensitive point. On that point He would never have compromised.

So this foolish idea that all these religious people should suffer. And then why the religion? Why should you have the religion? I mean, if you have to have sufferings on account of religion, better not have such a horrible religion!

You see, it is like purchasing sufferings! No. Where did it say? I don’t know. Where in the Bible they said that all the Christians must suffer? I don’t know what point you get from where!

Gregoire: It is reported in the Bible that Jesus said to a young man, “If you want to follow me take your cross,” or something like that.

Shri Mataji: All right. That doesn’t mean that you suffer! “If you want to follow me take your cross.” Now, what is the cross? You know [it] is a symbol of innocence.

I say take your cross, because, if you are coming here, as you are, you are to be moulded, you are to be brought to the proper balance, so you little bit suffer. When you try to test other’s vibrations you do get a little bit of that burning and all that. But not the way we have understood, to carry our crosses: now what is your cross? I mean [it’s] absurd, I tell you! The whole understanding is of Christ. You make such a great personality into nothing, absolutely! He came here to teach you to suffer? I mean, can you think of such a thing? I don’t know what brains and what intelligence all your, these ‘great’ priests are using to say that He came here to teach you to suffer!

Marie:  They probably have trouble with their liver and they feel miserable so they get suffering out of it!

Shri Mataji: (laughing) No, no, but the preaching is that you must suffer!

Now even if you take, like this, a position: you can say that it was that if anybody says [something bad] to you, you just don’t bother about it, you don’t bother. But why suffer? Suffering means that you bother about it! Otherwise you just don’t bother.

Yogi: I think it’s just a rationalisation of impotency. I think it’s like that. Because they were unable to do anything. The priests were unable, they were seeing people suffering around and they were not able to help them, then they said then, “Accept your suffering and enjoy it.”

Shri Mataji: Enjoy the suffering? No, it’s an absurd doctrine of suffering.

Marie: But the original doctrine was that you offer whichever sufferings to God and then it got twisted out that you have to feel miserable.

Yogi: Suffering was like tapas or something like that.

Shri Mataji: Tapah! Tapah!

Marie: When suffering comes to you, you have to accept it and offer it to God. I mean some people do still teach the right thing but most people just think they have to feel miserable.

Shri Mataji: You see,  I wish, you shouldn’t say, even, ‘offering’ or anything. You see, God’s name or God Itself is a balm to it. You have pain in the stomach: when you put [a] hand towards me, supposing, you get all right – finished! Now what are you offering to me? I am not getting anything!

It’s just a different thing altogether. You see, suffering and God are two different things! God is the One who balms your suffering. 

What is that 23rd Psalm is? Does it say you suffer?

Gavin Brown: The Lord is my shepherd.

Shri Mataji: Then? Where, which one is such a great thing that such a big doctrine has come out — from where I don’t know — that we all should suffer? It is all the time promised [that] even those who are suffering will be helped: “Blessed are those…”

Gavin Brown: But there was no actualisation of the promise until now.

Gregoire: Mataji, if you wouldn’t have come, ok…

Shri Mataji: Why wouldn’t I have come?

Gregoire: Ok, let’s say one life earlier…

Gavin Brown: Supposing that you had not come…

Gregoire: No! Let’s say, one life earlier…

Gavin Brown: …we would not have understood what Christ was about.

Gregoire: …and we are suffering because there is a mess around. The only way we can bear it is in thinking that our suffering has a meaning. And the only way we can think our suffering has a meaning is in…

Shri Mataji: Then the simple meaning is: because of your mistakes you are suffering!

Gregoire:  And that does not help!

Shri Mataji: It is a very simple thing, you know. It’s very, very simple. You, the human beings: put them on one side, God on another side, all right? You cut each other’s throats: God has told you to cut each other’s throats? If there is war, then who? God has created war? Physically also: if you neglect yourself, you do all kinds of things, then you suffer! 

Who has asked you to read so many books? Who has asked you first of all to create so many books? What do you know to create so many books? That’s it! So you are doing it, so you face it also here! Did God ask you to write so many books and read them and condition yourself? Who has asked you to listen to Freud?

But inside you He is all the time talking and telling you. It’s not that He’s given you up. He’s all the time guiding you. Only thing you should have done is to accept His advice. All the time He’s telling you, “It’s wrong, it’s too much you are doing it.” You can even see your ego, what more do you want to see? When you know your horse is doing a fast one: so why not make it a slow moving one? You know you are missing your targets: why not slow it down?

Did God tell you all these things the way you are suffering, suffering and you go on? Now this girl who has, her husband has met a death because he has committed an accident: did God tell him you go and commit an accident? He must be going somewhere in a hurry: he must go! So he commits an accident and he’s had it.

Human beings have created everything. Even the bhoots and all those have been created by human beings, God has not created them. All this is the creation of human beings.

God has created joy and happiness. All the beauty of the world is at your feet, such beautiful things.

Imagine a small, little tree also, if you see a small little seed;  anything you see in yourself, your eyes on, if you watch, you want to see, under microscope, beautiful! So very nice! How beautifully everything He’s done for you to see the joy. And here you are taking one knife and putting it inside and you say, “I am suffering.” Who has asked you to do that? It’s like that, whether collectively or individually. 

God is not responsible for that. 

You see it’s like a mother who has cooked everything nicely for you, “Come along now for the food!” Here She finds her children coming home, all wounded, all famished, finished!

He has created beautiful things for you, absolute beauty. And He wants you to sit there and enjoy that joy, just imagine! That’s why He has created you! It’s such a frustration it is. Such a frustration! (laughter)

(damaged part of Regis Camille’s tape: inaudible for 20 seconds)

…you can make out a person who is cruel, but you want to go to such a person, spoil yourself and then you say you are miserable. 

You give so much importance to human beings. It’s only you who is doing it. 

If there is Hitler, Hitler could not be there unless and until there were Germans to help him. Without the Germans do you think Hitler could have existed?

Same here, you elect your people who are very dominating, sometimes who are possessed; they become your prime ministers, supposing. Then what do you do? It’s left to you! If you don’t want you can have good people. Will you put any saint there? No, you’ll say he’s not practical? Nobody would accept a saint!

You see anywhere, like that Macarias horrible fellow! You call him as the head of the church there! I mean, how could he be there?

In India they appoint these Shankaracharyas: horrible, useless things, good for nothing! They cannot be even used as footballs I tell you, they are so useless! And people are making for them golden umbrellas! On top they want to have diamonds and things. And if they go about in the market people will think there’s a kuli going. I mean the one who is carrying the luggage is also called as kuli in India.

Yogi: A porter.

Shri Mataji: Yes, a porter. There’s a porter going on! And they want to have a crown. Because they look like that, such miserable creatures. So they want to have a crown of gold and they want to have a big umbrella made of gold, and the umbrella will fall down on them, so they must have a shield also, to protect themselves. Such miserable horrid people, they become the heads of the churches and heads of the organisations. It is you [do that]. And while the good say, “We must suffer.” They say, “It’s alright, let it go!” So what prospers is the bad, is the evil. 

No more of suffering for the saints! Had enough of it. 

Yogi: Sounds good!

Shri Mataji: Absolutely! Nobody dare touch a saint now. That’s it! Had enough of it. But Christ was alright, He never suffered, but He relieved everybody’s suffering. He doesn’t suffer. I don’t suffer at all. Neither you are going to suffer now. In the name of God you are not going to suffer now. 

Let’s see now. Unless and until you are addicted to it then I can’t help you: you want to have suffering then go ahead with it! But if you want to have joy you will have it and nobody can take it away from you. Those who try will suffer. Those who go against you will suffer. 

This is Krishna’s style, or we can say Mohammed Sahib, because today is His birthday. So to understand Him in the right perspective, you see. After Christ it was such a fiasco, that they had to come to say that you are not to suffer. Even His grandsons who were, you know, reborn from Mahavir and Buddha, they came to teach the nonviolence of the nonsense that’s going on: to stop that, know that there is a non-violence of God which is violence; which is just killing! They need a little killing, nicely! And sometimes a big one too! They will have it. 

So the idea that we should not be a military force – why not? We are the greatest military force! Here you will sing “Onward Christian soldiers!” Now how can the soldiers be sufferers? You are soldiers, you are endowed with powers of The Almighty, and how dare you suffer! It is a wrong idea.

You have not to take anything aimed at you. Alright, like a gentleman, like an elephant when he walks and the dogs are barking, it doesn’t bother – but in its greatness, not in suffering. It just moves and goes on like that. Like that! You are not to bother about these bickerings and all nonsensical things. You are not to come down on your ego. But no suffering! No suffering of any kind.  This is the message of Mohammed Sahib.

But Muslims? Oh God! His enemies became Muslims, I can tell you this much, the way they are. The way they are treating Him, you can see that they were His enemies. 

The first and foremost thing He has said is that all of them are Prophets. They have come at different times. He said, “Don’t drink,” because He saw [that] Christ didn’t impress too much on the drinking, so that’s what they have  started! They find a loophole everywhere. You see, now I am saying so many things, but maybe I may leave one or two points here and there. I’m trying to cover up [all the points] you see, that’s why I talk, talk, talk, talk, talk – nothing should be left out! Because you will catch hold of that point, somebody, and get onto that. 

He came down and he said, “Don’t drink!” Muslims are drinking the most. Christ said, “Don’t go near the spirits.” So in the church you will have graveyards. In the church only you will have graveyards! Just see the wonderful part of it! He said, “Don’t go near the dead. You have nothing to do with the dead.” That’s what all the Christians are busy with this…

(break in recording)

There is God, and also we know that He is reflected in us, in our heart as Spirit, as Atma, as Self.

Now, when we know about the three channels that are working within us, of Mahakali, Mahalakshmi and Mahasaraswati. The three powers of Ida, Pingala and Sushumna, which create the subconscious, preconscious and the conscious mind, are working in our consciousness. That means we are conscious of them.

We are conscious of our left and right, that is Ida and Pingala, sympathetic nervous system. We are not conscious of the parasympathetic. That means that we can increase the rate of our heart, we can increase the rate of our breathing, but we cannot decrease it. The decrease, or what you call the lowering down of the rate, is done by parasympathetic. So the parasympathetic is active, but we are not conscious of it: in the sense that we have no control over it.

The Spirit, that is God, which is reflected in us, resides in the heart.

The manifestation of Spirit in our heart controls the parasympathetic. But this Spirit is the reflection of God Almighty in our heart, as if in a mirror. And Divine love, which is the light of God, is reflected in us through the reflection of the Spirit, as the unconscious mind.

So within us there is an area about which we are not conscious. That is why it is called as unconscious. That area lies so far away from our conscious mind that we cannot control it. We are not conscious of it, but it acts, through parasympathetic activity. How it acts, I will give you a simile: Supposing there is a power works (a power plant) somewhere, and it is acting through this (electric) light over here. You don’t see the power work, or the factory, or wherever the power is created, but what you’ll see is the manifestation here, and you see the light. But supposing you do not see the light, nor the lamp, nor the factory, but you are affected by it: that is the situation of a human being.

A normal human being who is not a realised-soul, is not aware of that factory, which is God, or the light it has got, is not aware of the lamp that he has got in his heart, and is also not aware of the light that the lamp is emitting. But it is acting.

So the unconscious mind is nothing else but the projection of God’s will through the light of Divine love.

I have given this simile again and again, which is very good and apt: that, these two powers that are within us, one on the left, another on the right hand side, are there and we are conscious of them and we use them. Out of them, the right: we use it in absolute awareness. The left one, we know is used as subconscious mind, and sometimes, if you take drugs or if you do something like that, then you go to your subconscious also. So you can become aware of the subconscious area also.

So you are aware of, the right hand side already, and you are aware of the subconscious sometimes, when you try to get aware of it.

So these two powers that are within us are all the time vibrating in a wave, and the points at which they meet, they create the throb, or you can say the centre. A centre is created, a Deity is placed [there], but there is no light for us to see, or to feel, or to be conscious of the Deities; the Deities are fast asleep!

When the Kundalini rises…now Kundalini is the subconscious. You will be surprised that Kundalini is a Mahakali power.

She is absolutely pure, in the purest form, because She is not used. We can say, part of it is used in us, our subconscious. Sort of, we have kept some water separately, which we have not used so far. So first of all we use the subconscious water and the preconscious water and we dirty it, we exhausted it. Then this stored-up power rises and does the last cleansing. But when She rises She creates a third current. Still that third current, when She is rising, doesn’t have the light. But when It reaches the Sahasrara and pierces it then it becomes one with the Universal Consciousness. Because what is God? Is the One who controls the Universal Consciousness. He’s The Controller of the Universal Consciousness. He emits the light. And when this Kundalini rises it gets that flame on it. So now all the Deities get awakened.

Now, you may say that, “It is in the heart, Mataji, you are saying. You are saying it is here,” It’s a confusion, people think. But actually it is All-pervading. Say, God is a nucleus you can say, or a factory, which has the light all over and is reflected in the heart. So when your Kundalini, a particular, individual Kundalini, touches that, then this light takes place, then in the heart the Spirit is ignited; or sort of it emits, it manifests, it projects. And its projections are these vibrations.

So, through this, you know the will of God. Through this you have a dialogue with God and you understand Him, what He wants. And what does He want you to know?

There are three qualities of God which you can feel through this.

One: what is the Truth. You ask any questions: if you are asking for something, and if it is in “yes” then you will get too many vibrations. If it is in “no” vibrations will lower down. That’s how you can verify what is right, what is wrong. What is the Truth, what is not the Truth, now you can know. Nobody has to tell you, you don’t need any clergyman or anybody to certify it. It is there. Through your vibrations you can feel it: is this is the Truth or not? Is it a correct place you have come to or to the wrong person?

Then also the various combinations and permutations of these, it is true, but still there’s a little point that is wrong in you. For example, if you say that, “Christ was resurrected in person?” “Yes, that’s true,” and you’ll get more vibrations. But if you see now, that, if you say, “Is it, Mataji, the Mother of Christ?” If you do not accept it, you will not get it on the Sahasrara. You see for yourself.

(From Regis Camille’s cassette 2)

…and he actually came to do work for Sahaj Yoga in that area. Maharashtra is a very good area for one reason: it’s a part of India where, since long, a group of people have been working on these lines of the Adi Guru. They were called as Avadhutas. And they started with Machhindernath – a Primordial Master was born as Macchindernath – and they started working on very few people in the villages, or you can say in the hills and we can call them that they were like ascetics, just dedicated to find out the truth. And these people, there were very few of them, they started working it out. Like the Kashyapas of the Zen system. And they went into various countries – even Machhindernath, his disciple was Gorakhnath – they all went into various countries to find out what is the problem and how it is to be worked out. 

So there is a disciple essence also [which] was brought in. And these disciples, two of them have become incarnations. One of them as you know is Buddha and another is Mahavira: they have become incarnations.

So everything has been tried and worked out for you. You don’t have to bother about it. The only thing is that to be Sahaja is to leave space in between. Just try. That’s what surrender is: to leave space. Just leave space! And say whatever you want to, you can say it out: If you say ‘no’, then no. If you say ‘yes’, yes. For example you want to have an ashram, alright you can have it. But if you go and say, “How can we have? It’s very difficult.” He’ll say, “Alright, go ahead!” “How are we going to work it out?” Then nothing is going to materialise. You just say, “Yes we are going to have it!” “Alright, work it out!” That’s right. That’s how things work out. 

For you it’s much easier than for me, because I don’t really want anything, if you ask me. I don’t want any ashram or anything. Wherever I am, I am alright. But you need the ashram so you have to desire for it.

You have to desire. On the left hand side is your heart: ask for the desire and put a bandhan to it, it will work out. But don’t be hesitant: “How can it be?” You want rain? Alright, say, “Come along rain!” Have it! You want sun? You can ask the Sun to come out. You want heat? You can have the heat. But you should know that you are now established in the Kingdom of God; then only it will work out! Such hesitant people! 

It’s such a funny stuff: like a driver sitting in the car, how can you blame the car? You don’t know how to drive, you have not yet mastered it, you are so nervous, you are not confident. Then it works out.

How are you now Michael? Are you better? Hmmm, it’s working out.

Should we go into meditation? Yes? Alright.

(end of recording)