Seminar Day 2, Zen Void

Easthampstead Park Conference Centre, Bracknell (England)

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First western seminar: “Void, Zen”. Easthampstead Park, Bracknell (UK), 15 October 1978.

[…] So, what’s the use of reading it? “Only praise the Mother!”, that’s what He [Adi Shankaracharya] said. People asked Him, “Why have You praised the Mother only? Why don’t you write something else?” He said, “That’s the only way you can get it [the Realization]. What’s the use of giving all avidya, non-knowledge? I am giving the real knowledge: you praise the Mother and just do it.” And all those learned pandits and all that, they challenged Him and they tortured their lives [of saints].

Now what is the present Shankaracharya Shringari doing, do you know that? This [Adi] Shankaracharya took a sanyasa because He had to work and dedicate Himself and He went all over the world whenever it was possible for Him. He went to Kashmir and all these places and He did such a lot of work. While this fellow who is a small little horrible thing, he is now meekly. Whether you like it or not, I will have to say it.

He is trying to collect money because he has to make an umbrella of gold. And he has to put diamonds on that and on this are seven stones will be put and nine stones will be put on that umbrella and one day, when he will be sitting, the umbrella will be going to fall off. (Yogis laugh.)

Yogini: Could I apt to you that [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: all the discussing masses is of his receptions-?]

Another Yogini: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: The truth is not for the masses. The truth is the hardest thing to find …]

Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s it!

Yogini: That is said, so people would kindly [INDIST.] …

Shri Mataji: But, but – you see, a truth can only, truth can be found when you remove the clouds.

Yogini: Is the [INDIST: sun doing this]?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no – that you have to remove yourself.

Yogini: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: It has to begin because the wind that chills before me and …]

Shri Mataji: No, no – you can.

Yogini: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: So take forth.]

Shri Mataji: You see, it is your own mind that forms the cloud. If you are on the truth the clouds will disappear – but you must tell people there are clouds, you have to tell them. Not only – you have to tell them the fact, because you see, we are getting people here from different sources and different types, you see? I have been facing people in Japan. For example, I faced lots of Zen-People and I have to talk to them. Some of them did accept, some of them did not – what can I do about it?

Another Yogini: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: It wasn’t made so, you come and there people could make new clouds like forcing this, so I think …]

Yogi: This support needs to be the advantage of the people.

Yogini: Yes, but you can’t convince that, so therefore that you, you learn some [INDIST.] – from where? You just walk round.

Shri Mataji: That’s very nice to say, but doesn’t happen that way. They block your way because they are in your sub-conscious. You have to face that. You have to take them out, you have to cleanse them.

With Sahaja Yoga – what happens? That you can see them and you can clear them. But if you just say, “Now I am realized, all it’s all right” – it is not so. It is not so. That’s why they did in, in the ancient times the Hata-Yoga style was first to take a person from childhood away from the madding crowd, keep him there, cleanse him, keep him in pure conditions and treat him very well and then give him a realization, gradually from one chakra to another chakra and take him up for – this was done in many ages, in many lives of those people. They were again selected, brought in and again it was done. It was a very long process.

But now, after getting realization you can do it yourself. You can clear yourself, clean yourself, but you must face what sorts of problems there are. Now for some people here, I mean most of them, they have no this problem anymore now. They do not think that these Buddhist and anyone of them, whether Lamas or Damas or anything, they have any contribution made towards spiritual life. They are convinced of it. They do not contribute anything to spiritual life. These children do, such realized souls. It’s a realized soul.

Now if he is a realized soul and if the, if the head of the Zen is not – what can you do about it? It’s a fact. And those who follow Zen are not following because they have to be realized. First thing is they should be realized and who will realize them if the head is not realized? If one light is not enlightened, how is it going to enlighten other lights?

Yogini: Anyone has to do. The same is as they have been realized so they have got realization from here people anyway near thinking like that. It’s not after have been cured you really face it. Vienna, Milano, Geneva …

Shri Mataji: Ah! Now you better tell them Sheila about yourself. You see, you are sticking on to this. Now just tell what happened to you, Sheila you tell them.

Another Yogini: There is just one point …

Shri Mataji: Ah.

Yogini: … making list her she has to go the long way round to come to …

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no!

Yogini: The point is that, you can’t dissolve that.

Shri Mataji: It is not. Now I tell you one it is, you are saying this, that you people all believe that you are all guided that way. Your it is not. You see concealed guidance but nobody is going to force you that way. It’s your own choice. You make mistakes through your choice, your freedom is all the time there. What I can do is to tell you what is what – and leave it to your freedom. That if you think that if everybody has to go, then why should I be here?

Yogini: Now I think they have to hear that when going once that people need a choice to see, they are not using just walk straight into the open door, they are going to crash into the wall on the way. So therefore people who come to you finally will be yours.

Shri Mataji: Hm.

Yogini: They would do that, I mean, but they …

Shri Mataji: Yes, they do.

Yogini: … they think that …

Shri Mataji: Yes, I agree.

Yogini: … they have to choose …

Shri Mataji: Yes they do, I have all the patience, I know, I have, I have all the patience for them, but what My thing, My Job is to tell them, this is a wall and you don’t hit your head. And being a Mother, you can imagine, I see them as little babies now newly born. So I feel concern and I tell them very positively, very clearly that don’t jump into that pile. But still they do, some of them, Sheila did that.

Another Yogini: [ INDIST. SOUNDS LIKE: That’s turnout, I said to Gregoire, it’s snoring. You know I love him and I have been tortured there. I think now with Shri Mataji is terminated after the… But I am just gone put one thing a little bit to make sure and once I made” sure, Gina gone to walk another illuminating. I was just straight sure, completely.]

Shri Mataji: She didn’t identify it all, she just visited that once. Once only.

Yogini: I was very ill, physically and everything and intensive what just has been round by and then he was a man. I don’t like doing the same thing. (Yogis laugh.) Not to name it out – a good job.

Shri Mataji: Just imagine …

Yogini: … there are all persons limited …

Another Yogini: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: When there is no talking, when there is …] (All Yogis laugh.)

Shri Mataji: And now you see the people from Canada, now just see My position is, take up from Canada here, so many of them. I cleanse them, I clean them, I put them right. I tell them whatever it is, why they are sorry, lots of problems, how it happens. I mean I have to work really, really very hard for them, really very hard and then they again are going to some drama.

So it, I have to point it out very clearly, that as long as you identify with falsehood you will not be realized. You cannot get it. You have to give up falsehood, see for yourself, work it out! The best judgement: your vibrations. You must get it. Now see this girl has been reading certain books and things and that’s falling on her head and she herself can feel it that there is a blockade in her head. You can feel it yourself, isn’t it?

(A baby makes a little noise, the Yogis laugh.)

If the sensitivity is all right then you go to the right point. But no, you see, your sensitivity is very much blurted and obstructed. Feel that, come here!

Now ask Me other questions, all right? So it is for your own good, your own good and I’ll tell you. I am not telling even one thing that is not auspicious and I will know it, whether people like it or not. So sometimes I camouflage, because things do not go straight into their heads. As I told, that if somebody is stupid you shouldn’t say, “You are stupid.” (Yogis laugh.) Yes! One has to go in a round way. That’s a Mother’s style.

But I have to tell you this, I am telling you the truth. First thing you should do is to establish your vibrations. First thing is that, then you talk about Realization. You should say nothing than, “First my vibrations. There are so many people who have established them. Why not, why not – I must get it.” That’s the thing should be there. If that works out … it’s very good. If it doesn’t work out, then work it out. That’s the only thing that you have to get – nothing else. You have to understand.

Now I asked her what books did she read, what happens? She told Me you see. So, I can now correct it, I know where is the problem, you see. By telling Me facts, what is the problem, I can correct it better. Like a doctor is to be told, what is the thing. Because most of the things here in the Western mind is mental. Our reading, our – you see – past life and all these things in the sub-consciousness has come and also our ambitions and our aspirations and all that – all these things work out, through Me.

So, we have to clear ourselves, we have to be absolutely cleared out – this is what Buddha wanted, is enlightenment, what else? Did He want people to form for fighting? Nothing of that kind. He wanted only to get enlightenment, to be able to read themselves and not some books, you see. Buddha wrote no book. Nothing He wrote and those who write about Him were not realized people either. He said that you should not worship anything, because He was so fed up with the people who were worshiping all kinds of nonsense. So He said, no worship. Now they are worshipping His clothes, His hair, his nails, this, that …

Of course, to Me I know, it is great, everything has a meaning, but to these people it has no meaning. They cannot feel the vibrations of that, so what are they worshipping?

Like in Kashmir I went and I went to a place and I just got tremendous vibrations and I said, “What’s there here? Is there a Temple or something?” They said no. I said, “This place seems to be really vibrated.” I stopped the car and asked the driver. He said, “You knew there is a big [INDIST.] that is the one hair of Mohamed is put there.” Oh, I said, that’s great!” And the driver said, “What’s great? This hair has caused so much problem here. People have been fighting over it, there has been so many murders and this, that.”

Now what the poor hair has done? You see, just imagine. To Me it has given Joy and such feeling of oneness there. And to others it has given fighting. The Muslims have been fighting, because the hair was lost and this and that. Then when the hair was returned, they did not know whether it was a true hair or some other hair … (the Yogis laugh) … be contra-versus about things.

We went to, there is one place of Valmiki-Ashram near Bihar, you see. On the other side of Bihar in Nepal and I went down there, you see, wading through a river to see that place. Just to feel it, I know it is that. So then when I came back and see one of them [INDIST.] very learned men from Bihar, he was also there. He said, “Mother what you think, is this the place where Sita-ji lived?” I said, “Yes She did. She did.” He said, “How do You know?” I said, “I know it, for one thing, it’s My own experience that it was so. Apart from that, you can ask any Sahaja Yogi, they can say, that this is the place She lived, because you feel the vibrations throughout.”

He said, “Really there are books and books written against it, that this is not the place, this is non the Indian soil, not on the Nepali soil, this, that, all these things … Just imagine! That fighting about the Divine Mother, whether She was born in Nepal or here. She was a Nepali-Lady, She was born in Nepal, no doubt about it. But Nepal is no good, they are no good neither the Indians are. All are just the same. Horrible people, fighting anything good you bring it, they start fighting. What to do with this human nature?

Actually, these people did not realize, none of them knew. As I know you people, really I can tell this point. Even Christ did not know how human beings are crooked. They are too good. Humanization has to be completed I think in this life of Mine and I get horrified. Still people think I am ignoramus, I don’t know much. I have to still read lots of things to understand human beings.

You see, because of their so-called Intelligence – which cheats them – because they think is all-, they can manage, they think they can manage everywhere, who are they not managing is themselves, their own choice, their own properties, their own wealth – that’s what they are not managing, that’s what they are not feeling, that’s what they are missing. That is within them so great, bubbling, manifesting, anxious to come out, that’s all missing. Now what are they managing like fools? This is out of show.

Somebody has to say it and can convince you. I am here to convince; I am here to convince you – about Buddha. And do you know Buddha took His birth again? He was Hassan and Hussein, one of them was Buddha, another was Mahavira. See the silence. Buddhist won’t accept, because they got frightened their lives, the way the Buddhist were all souring.

Mohammed Sahib took His birth as Nanaka. If you read Nanaka’s life, I mean if you read what He has to say, all the time He is saying, “Oh God, how are you fighting among yourselves, the Hindus and the Muslims, or the Muslims and the other people? I am just the same. How are you fighting?” You see, when He died, Mohammed Sahib, when He saw where the religion was taken by Muslims He was to be born again. And tell them! But when He was born again and He started telling, people stoned Him. And these Sikhs asked them, these fools, you go and ask them, “What Mohammed, what He has done?” All His life He was trying to unite both of them because He was so much surprised at this and imagine, the Sikhs all their lives they are fighting the Muslims, and the Muslims, the fools, they are fighting the Sikhs.

I talked to some Arab Ladies – they agree with Me. There is no meaning who agree with Me, you can see, after all they are intelligent enough to see. But something of it lurks in us which must be taken out, which is false. You must give up all that is false, because falsehood keeps you away from reality which is beauty and joy, which is yourself [your Self].

When I talked in nineteen-seventy first time and I unlatched all of them, they called it spiritual jugglery. Left and right all of them I said, that everybody was so frightened. There was one Raja of Mundi, he came, he said, “Mother they will go, come and kill You.” I said, “This time I am going to kill them. Nobody is going to crucify Me now. Don’t you worry about Me” He said, “I am worried about your well-being. You are saying like this, you see, people will feel very angry with You.” I said, “Let them come. This time I am going to face it. It was all right before I took up the show, but now no more. Let’s have it out. Somebody has to say it.”

It is very nice for Me to go about, “Oh pleasing all of you, oh very good, you, this society is very good, that church is very good, Pope, you are My love” and all that. (Yogis laugh.) And get all of them together, because I am a realized soul in and out. And I can say that, “Oh I am this, I have got curative-powers, I am raising Kundalini” and this and that, and get all of them put together. I could have done that way, but it is not going to work out. Of course, if they come to Me, I’ll manage, because there is a certain protocol of the truth.

Christ did not go to these people and tell them. He argued with them and told them, what was the truth. Buddha preached non-violence, He thought that by non-violence-methods these people will accept. But He found by doing that, what has happened, all the horrible rakshasas are sitting there very nicely. Anybody who is a good person is to be tortured, that was the law. Anybody who is a religious person must be killed. Anybody who was a realized soul must be crucified. This was the pattern of life.

So, they came as Hassan and Hussein and fought it. If the time comes the wrath of God will come upon these people. He has a very tremendous wrath. If in one incarnation if it has not shown, it doesn’t mean it does not exist. It does exist.

It’s all right for Christ to say, that if you put, if somebody slaps you on one face, put the other around. It is just to develop your patience, but when you slap on one face of a realized soul, one side is cleared and when you put the other cheek, the second side is also cleared. Both the sides are just cleared out, that’s why it was said. The deeper sense is like that. And then the person falls at your feet, asking for forgiveness.

Just see, a wasp hit Me here and the vibrations there – hundred times more. Isn’t it a funny thing? It is a very deep secrets of Mine, but at least you must know that and unless and until you have given up all that is falsehood, which keeps you floating on the surface you cannot go deep down. These are all bubbles, you know, you must have seen people floating with two balloons, jetting out, you see. In the same way our ego and superego keep you floating. It doesn’t allow you to go deep down into yourself.

So by rationality you cannot understand it. You give up your rationality, come deep down in the center. You have to go in directly.

Buddha did His job; He build up here on left-hand-side of your personality. Mahavira did His job here. Now it is My job to do it, is to break your Brahmarandra – and let Me do it. They are all within Me, They are part and parcel of Me and there is in Their mind every minute, every second, every moment They are here. Don’t worry about Them, you have to worry about yourself [your Self].

You just think how far you have gone with your meditation, how deep you have gone into yourself [your Self]. If you have not gone, it’s not a mistake of Sahaja Yoga, it is your own mistake. It is something wrong somewhere. Just went down, where is the mistake! Is your ego floating out, or is your super-ego floating out? What is not keeping you dive into your being?

See now how much I am working hard on you – days in and days out. It is a simple thing.

In Derby we had someone who belonged to a big organization and he came round and he started arguing out. So one of the Sahaja Yogis asked, “Now come and tell me, how many people you have given realization to, how many people you have cured?” He said, none. Then he said, “What are you talking to Mataji? She has given realization to thousands, you have seen. She has cured thousands of people, we have cured also, so better take it from Her instead of getting angry with Her and telling Her about this big organization that you have.” When the fellow was changed and when he went and told his organization, people who would follow him as a guru, they said, “Oh he is gone mad.” They left him and they selected another mad man to be their guru.

Nobody is going to stand by you, organization-wise, I can tell you. All your organizations will never accept Me as a whole, never. Because they stand on some falsehood. They will never accept Me, the whole of it. None of these organizations are going to accept Me.

In America I have seen the same thing. It is a sad thing, but it is the same thing.

There is one lady who is running, she calls it “Light of the Universe”. She invited Me there and she is going to [INDIST: put all there-?]. She had arranged for Me a three-days-conference and all that, you see. At the end of it She took Me down into her house, down [INDIST: below it-?]. There she had made a temple and all full of bhoots and she said, “Here I call my master from Tibet.” I said, “Very nice, and why have you called Me? “I put a convent to her and all that. I came the way.” So some people left her completely, joining Me. She was writing to Me that, “I should go to her” and again like this, “because she makes a lot of money out of that.” But I told her not to meet her for some time.

So the whole of it won’t come to Me, because the basis is wrong, the basis is wrong, absolute falsehood it is. The basis of all these organizations is wrong. It has done no good, if you see it very clearly and honesty, they are doing no good. At the most they are philanthropic things like, we can say, a council which is rendering help to some sick people, to admit in the hospital, some this and that, that’s all. At the most if they are correct. You see, you are like council-members, you see council-members. But why bring in God there? It’s all right, you are social workers, do the social work. It is not spiritual. Spiritual work is spiritual question where you have to be awakened. You understand?

So, all those societies or all those religions, all of them, one and all, hundred percent. You are saying twenty-five percent, I would say even if one percent is there, I’ll thank My stuffs. Even one percent I am not saying, a genuine one which is based on giving realization to people in the real sense of the word. These so called, these daya-makas place I have been there. This Yogananda was not a realized soul, you will be shocked that ‘Papaji’ and ‘Dadaji’ and all of them were not realized souls at all.

Now the people who were there have come and told Me. You see they, there was a doctor we had, he died of that. He used to do all the Catharism, he used to cut his tongue, put it back, put it here, you see. Imagine all these things and always his tongue used to wag pointer like that and he had to put some sort of a hold for his tongue – otherwise the tongue would wag out like that. He had cut if for his threat and turn it up, put it here for raising the Kundalini – just imagine!

Now if somebody comes like that, what should I say, “Now you cut your nose and put it inside” ? (Shri Mataji laughs loudly.) Just imagine! There are people like that. This is Yogananda’s school, they are doing Catharism. Kabira came and He lashed them, completely this Catharism and all that. He said, “One day your tongue will be cut, your noses will be cut and this will happen. You will be hanging down head downwards in the hell, the way you are treating these people, those who are seeking.”

These are the people and they publish books, you see. Their books will be published and all that, they will have BBC-Programs and everything will support them and help them, because they are all based on falsehood. What did they do to Christ? Did any scientist accept Him? Did any bureaucrat accept Him? What did they do to Buddha? When He lived, He had a very bad time. After His dead of course everybody started making money and things like that. But what could have they done?

Japanese supposed to be the most – as you say Japanese are Buddhists – cruellest people ever known; cruellest people are Japanese. Cruellest of all, you see they have such a funny system.

I went to Japan; I was amazed that any good-looking woman does not marry in Japan. This has come out of Buddhism, just imagine, a system. No good-looking woman would marry, neither an educated woman would marry, only dishwashers marry. The women who are absolute useless, good for nothing, ugly looking horrid women who are maidservants in other places, they marry and they are the mothers of the children of Japan. The mother, even if her husband beats her, does anything, has to bear, he can make keeps in the house, concubines there, he can go and visit the Geishas, she is not supposed to say anything. And that’s why in the whole world, you know, a Japanese wife is the best. She is worse than a slave to him. And if you go to Japan nobody will invite you to their houses and homes.

See I went without My husband, so they didn’t know what to do out of Me, you see. They couldn’t take Me to Geisha houses and they couldn’t take Me to their houses either. So, they didn’t know really what a pickle I was. And I read, they didn’t know what to really make out of Me. I told them I would like to go to Geisha houses also, to see there what’s it. And there I found with these Geishas, when I was talking to them, that they are fed up of this nonsense. They said, you see, “We are beautiful women, so we don’t marry, because we get the money. And we are part-time also career girls.” There were some part, part-time Geisha and part-time career girls. And they all meet in there. You see they are absolutely openly like that.

Here they do it also, I mean the way the women go out for dating is what? Is Geisha-business. Dating is what? I mean, there they call themselves at least honestly, they are Geishas, but here dating with a man, poor man has to pay for them every evening, when it is too much.

All this is in a very subtle way here. So you see, you say there is no prostitution and there is prostitution. I mean, they said, what are the laws of prostitution. You cannot there, sort of advertise it, but you can have a sauna bath or something. I mean some sort of a thing that they have made here with their intelligence.

But in Japan it is clear cut, Geisha is a Geisha, a housewife is a housewife, but if you see a housewife, her hands, there is no softness, really hard hands, just like the bark of a tree. If you see the feet, if you see their legs are bent, their bodies are bent, very young women look so older. We were invited to a very rich man’s house. There I saw his daughters-in-law were beautiful, but they had to pay a lot of money to those girls and to their parents to get them there. No girl would marry. Then the children, when they see their mother being treated like this, what will happen to them? You see, after all there is a mother’s pride within them and they can’t bear it anymore.

So Japanese are the people, outside they are really disciplined, you see, they are like the way the mother is disciplined outside. They’ll go on bowing to you. See, if you don’t stop, they’ll go on (Laughs.) If you stop it, then they will stop. They will not stop earlier, but if there is an accident they’ll get down, bow to you. But in the crowd, if they find a foreigner, they will put their heels round them. They kill people in such a butchery way, they are butchers, I tell you

They are very disciplined, because one is talking, nobody will talk. They are just like machines. Hiroshima gave them a shock, that really gave them a shock and they were jolted. The young people now, the young women are revolting against it, they are realizing it. But I don’t know the way sometimes the young go also another mad, crazy day. But there is an awakening in Japan.

Now you can’t blame Buddha for this, you cannot blame Bodhidharma for this, the Zen-man who did this. He was a realized soul, no doubt about it.

They do not understand anything of it, Zen, they do not. They said, “This is all very difficult for us.” They have certain things like No-playing [theater] which I went and saw Myself and I really enjoyed it. They couldn’t understand why I was enjoying it. They couldn’t understand why I enjoyed their temples very much, what it was to convey, you see.

They have Temples which create like, you can say, a Moss-Temple is on top of a hill – you see – you have to go through a building in, on top of a hill. When you come out there is a little place like that only, there is one and there is a little mount made like a, like a drop, you see? And a little drop here, like a question-mark, you can say, one drop here. And is a hill with small plants of moss. You can see it through the, what you call, magnifying glass, beautiful different, different – you see – mosses are there.

Now anybody will say, “What’s this? All the way to brought us here, what is all this? Is it a Temple? What’s sort of a Temple?” Now that is a Zen-style, that when you see it, you cannot answer why, how! You just stop there in thoughtless awareness. It was to awaken your thoughtless awareness.

So the Zen-people said, “Now You tell me what is this?” I said, “Is it what Zen has told you? This is what which should not make you talk and think. You just say that, ‘What’s this?’ and do not ask any questions, become one with it.”

That’s what the Zen-people tried to do. They thought that by doing this, by telling people that, “Watch this without thought, watch this without thought”, it will work out. But they did not know that these people were not even awakened. It’s only possible for people who are awakened. They were of that high, they did not realize, that these people were not even awakened, how can they do things without thought. And all these temples are useless for this people.

There is another place where there is lot of sand, it’s spread out and a beautiful pattern drawn on it and there are some stones of various forms put there and you have to go sit around it and see that. Everybody knows that.

They said, “Mad people do that.” They take you to a temple and then you see all this and the Americans said, “Say, Mister [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: Kai-san]. Wow! Wow, what’s this? All the way walking up, oh God, I lost My feet and what’s this? What is it?” And nobody can understand, the Zen-people, don’t understand, you see, to see what it is. “Very beautiful, you must see, this is very beautiful”, they are telling in their funny English. These Americans, I must say, are really, and they have to walk bare-feet, you see, all the way down. They can’t understand why all this circus was done for them and the ones who are explaining do not. It is nothing but the same thing, that you watch a thing, which does not communicate to you, so you become quiet.

Then they start comparing as usual, “Our ideas are, that – oh! – this is like an ocean and in the ocean, there are these boats.” It’s rather not like a boat I must say. (Yogis laugh.) There are others who have some idea, that this is this, this is this – but that is the thing, you don’t have to do, you don’t have to compare it with any, you just have to see it, without thought.

That’s what Zen wanted to do, to watch a flower without thinking, just watch it as it is. How can you do it unless and until you are thoughtless aware?

And He didn’t. They did not know that people are not thoughtlessly aware. That’s possible only with the Kundalini is above the Agnya.

They thought minimum that must be with human beings, you see, that they are thoughtlessly, they can become thoughtlessly aware. They did not know that that is also missing, because they were of a very high-quality people. All of them were born realized, actually. Twenty-six of them in six centuries – can you believe it? Sixth century it started, till the twelfth century there were twenty-six, after that there was not one Kasha. Is a fact, it is written down. I am not telling you a lie. So, who can explain what is what?

In every religion, in every book all this nonsense has been done: Blind explaining something that is light. It’s an impossibility! I do not blame them for that, but I blame them there that they think, “Oh we are the enlightened, oh we are the Buddha, we know everything, we are Christ!” The Christians think, they are all Christians – means they are Christ themselves. This miss-identification is very wrong. You understand now? This is what it is.

Yogini: You said that the Buddhist, all the Buddhists I know never say that enlightenment comes this age. It could take a thousand lives.

Shri Mataji: That’s, that’s the best way of deluding people, you see. It takes thousand times, it’s correct – at what time? When they were Zens’, it was very difficult, but not today.

It was very difficult at the time of My grandmother’s time to think even that you will go to the moon. And even when people went there, she would not believe it. She said, “No, no – you are just showing a picture, just befooling me. How can anybody go?” Even if you showed her anything she would not believe. She said, “It’s all there coming to the earth and this is what you are just there, just befooling you, don’t believe them. They must be befooling.” Even today if you tell her, she is not going to believe, because it was impossible. Even when I was a student, you see, they used to say so many million years and billion years it will take to go to the moon. It has not taken anything like that.

So, the growth of life, when it comes, in the beginning one flower appears, a second appears after three, four years, then when the tree comes up and when the blossom-time comes so many flowers come up. This is a living thing. First one fish became a reptile, then after many years second one came in, but after some time shoals of them became – it’s the evolutionary way.

What they said, was correct at that time, is not correct today. Because they say it, are you going to stop your realization, even if you are getting it? For them it is impossible, not difficult, but it is an impossibility, they can never get realization.

So what they say, there is truth in it. It’s difficult – these Lamas never, none of them, not one of them is going to get realization – take it from Me. Not one.

Yogini: I am depending now, these organizations are tall, I agree with it and earning …

Shri Mataji: I am just telling you, …

Yogini: Yes.

Shri Mataji: … I am not telling you, I am not addressing to you, but in general I have to say. I am just saying a general statement. Part of it is across your mind I am speaking also and also again your glorification. These Lamas are parasites, absolutely parasites living on other people’s money, opium. Other people’s money, billing in opium it’s the best way. Are leading an abnormal live and doing all kinds of abnormal things. They never would have given any guidance to the whole world. Must all guidance how they could live without spending any money.

First of all, it is difficult to give realization, you can see that. Then when you give them also, they again go down to it. Then again build them up, again they go deep down. If it is not working out, it is not working out.

Now as it is, if you say that, “My left hand is tingling” – I am not telling you that, you are saying that, it is happening to you – it is definitely there. So, there is something wrong. So, you must cure it, it’s a simple thing. I am not giving any auto-suggestions that your right hand is paining, or left hand is heavy. It is there and it is dead and you yourself are telling Me. So, what I am trying to do is to help you out, to take it out.

And it is not so easy also giving it.

It’s better? Hmm it’s good?

Yogini: Sahasrara cooled down and this is very hot.

Shri Mataji: Ah, it is Tina, she has certainly [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: understanding it]. This one is so cool and this one is so hot. Now I am not telling her anything. (Shri Mataji is rubbing Her hands.) Hmm. Put your hand here down. It’s all right. Right hand on this side. You see one hand is cold, one is hot. How to explain? You cannot.

Yogi: Mataji, [INDIST: he claims it’s hard to see-?] he didn’t know much about this Void, because it seemed a very important part of it and Nabhi and Swadishthana around it, innately he didn’t know that much about this …

Shri Mataji: Hmm, hmm. So what do you want to know?

Yogi: [INDIST: firstly-?] how the Kundalini passes through it, because it is not written by one of the disciples of Indian saint university that could demonstrate …

Shri Mataji: What is it?

 Yogi: He said, because the most difficult [INDIST: thing is to be rich-?] (Shri Mataji laughs.)

Shri Mataji: For them it won’t. (Shri Mataji is sniping with Her fingers – longer pause.)

A-ham, what we call Void, maybe that’s, because in the Zen Void has a different meaning, but in Sahaja Yoga, what part is called as Void?

You see, in Sahaja Yoga we do call it as Void, a part of it, but if you want, you can call it Bhava-Saghara, or you can call it Void, or Gap, name as a Gap all that. This is the stomach of a human being, it is the visceras, and it has worked two important Chakras, you see, one is the central one, which is called as the Vishnu’s Chakra and another one is Swadishthana which is circling it. The relationship between the sustaining power that is within us, which is the evolutionary power, which gives us this human form from amoeba, which is the evolving power within us, placed in our stomach, on the solar plexus. This relationship between this power and with the five elements is the area which is Dharma, is the Atman, is the Ruh…


… themselves. For example, supposing you say you are a Buddhist, supposing one says, “I am a Buddhist”, you don’t become Buddha, by any chance, you don’t.

And this understanding goes on disappearing after some time, you see, among human beings and I was amazed that really the head of the Zen is not a realized soul and I told him and he told Me, they had only twenty-six kashyapas so far, only twenty-six realized souls there. And he was travelling with about five of the disciples and he came to India and none of them were realized. Is a fact.

You see, now supposing here in India and if I tell here to someone that in India people these Temples are now the fortress of tantricans and people are loosing their temples which, which has living Deities – … it was something wrong things, people won’t like it. But it’s a fact. If you go there, you will be amazed.

See I did speak with them, these Zen, because they had invited Me for this. I told to them what is real and I told to them what your Temples mean and how you go into thoughtless awareness and all that. But first thing is realization. Without that nothing happens, you see, this is all prescribed for realized souls.

‘Zen’ means ‘dhyan’, ‘meditation’. Those who are not meditating, means who are not realized cannot understand Zen at all. You have to go in, otherwise it’s just a joke going on, it’s a Drama going on, you see?

People are just thinking and by reading Zen and all that you are going to achieve something. You cannot achieve anything by reading. Only if you read Bible or Gheeta you cannot achieve anything. It’s only reading.

Yogini: I [INDIST.] me and, and is, I, I, wish that needed are people, let’s say from all directions …

Shri Mataji: All of them are reading.

Yogini: Yes, yes.

Shri Mataji: None of them, not one …

Yogini: I want to say, if you find, you said it, five percent …

Shri Mataji: Hundred percent? Zen – I will tell you, I have travelled all over the world, I have travelled all over the world now. I have been up to Chile, up to Argentina, up to Colombia – except for Australia I have been everywhere, but I have met many Australians and I can tell you, I haven’t met one, one Zen which has anything of truth left in him, not one Zen, even on the religious part of it, not even one.

Like people like in India, there was a very decent one, a Brahmacharya was a great man, I mean he was like an Incarnation, like that he was. His disciples are, I was amazed that even they, when he had just done the sentence that, “I am telling you that you have to get your realization, without realization…” but they were also just the same, they are also following, let’s say, something that is dead.

It is – supposing you are not realized and you start doing Sahaja Yoga to someone, moving your hands like this, raising the Kundalini – what will you do? You cannot do anything. So before – you see – feeling anything about what I say, you get your vibrations all right first of all, you get your Self realized, that’s the main thing.

Once your vibrations are all right then you can judge it better, because before that you cannot, because there is no rapport with the Truth and with the Absolute. You must get your vibrations corrected. First your vibrations must be corrected, you must be realized and then you must judge it. Otherwise, you cannot. This is why – you see – we can spread anything which is false, because there I don’t have to put a condition on you.

Here you have to be realized, you have to be settled down, then only you will understand. Without that, by paying money, say by joining any community or by becoming any member of it, you cannot, you cannot become a Sahaja Yogi. A Sahaja Yogi you can only become if you have got the vibrations, if you can raise the Kundalini, then only you can be a Sahaja Yogi, this is a very big condition.

I mean if you have some sort of a society, as you have Buddhas-society, or you can have a – say – a Church or a Temple or any society, anybody can join it. You can join it, but you cannot be called that. And this has to be, because of this problem only, a person like Christ has been brought out and thrown up to dust, a person like Buddha, a person like Mahavira, all Incarnations. They were very great, too great for human beings to understand and because they never got realization they just brought back to dust, absolutely to dust.

Buddhism has taken to such perversions, [INDIST.], if you go to Ladakh, Tibet, these Lamas! Now see, the Lama is speaking, now would you call it Buddhist?

Yogi: Some of the Lamas are not religious at all, they just head to the, their community, they are not religious people.

Shri Mataji: But they are not realized. I have not met even one Lama who is realized. You know this Pantcham-Lama and this, what is, Dalai Lama …

Yogini: You may call him politician.

Shri Mataji: I tell you, they are politicians

Yogini: I know.

Shri Mataji: That’s a hundred percent, not only but they are possessed people.

Another Yogini: But do they, make they people …

Shri Mataji: You see, apart from that they are possessed, you see, that’s how they get their “third eye” and all this nonsense and they got those visions and things.

I was, My Husband was with Lal Badhur Shastri and Lal Badhur Shastri’s wife was a little shy Lady and she could not go out. Normally I used to attend to people and I used to sit next to them. So this, when this Dalai Lama and this Pantcham Lama came to Delhi I was sitting next to him. I just could not sit, I was getting such burning from him and I felt little nervous sitting next to him, I mean funny …. So Shastriji asked Me, “Why are You not happy there?” I said, “If you don’t permit, if you permit Me, this man is not religious. Can you sit…?” He recognized Me. He said, “Just please, if You want, You can sit on the other side.” So I moved on and then I gave him Bhandan and all that.

They are parasites apart from anything. You see Tibet-people are so poor, so poor …. Have you been to Tibet? Very poor people, so poor, you cannot imagine, the poorest of poor are there and these people live in complete luxury, in palaces like this. They take their milk in silver bowls and they have marble inlets and the people are in absolutely die out poverty. They do not have houses, you know, they have touched things and – I mean, you cannot imagine the poverty there. Out of those people to suck the blood and live like this is only possible for the rakshasas, I tell you. If you, if you do not like it, I have to say that. You will feel the same way, if you are sensitive of it.

I went to [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: Bhendabhat], to Gokul and I came back and I told them, all the rakshasas, all the [INDIST.] which are the servants of Khamsa, all the rakshasas are now the Pandas.

Now you may not like it. When Christ hit people with the hunter, they did not like it, but that doesn’t mean they do not deserve it. I am going to Ganges with lustrous anger this time. All the Pandas had to run away. You see, they are the people who are making money on the river Ganges. Sitting there, looting people – how can it be God? It is Anti-God, absolutely Anti-God.

 Yogini: I know this.

Shri Mataji: … absolutely, hundred percent. Whether people like it or not, I have to say the truth. I am not here for seeking elections. All these are to be punished and are to be thrown away from the society. These are the ones who crucified Christ, these are the ones who hit Buddha, these are the ones who tortured Mahavira, these are the people who are today become, have religious people, trying to propagate religion and trying to make money out of it. A very ingenious method to, to build up a so a religion to earn money, it’s floating and enterprise ….

Yogini: They really do that and Buddha might [INDIST.] Knowing criticize, you see, my interest in Buddhism is not in Buddhists, but the philosophy is good ….

Shri Mataji: That’s what is Sahaja, He is nothing but Sahaja ….

Yogini: So they are following what was the criticism, because you see, if you bend …

Shri Mataji: Not about Buddha I must say, I never cri-, how can I criticize Buddha? I mean we use Him for the clearing of our Agnya.

Yogi: Other people do still that.

Shri Mataji: It is … you see, how could I criticize, it would be saying tomorrow that I am criticizing Christ, I mean how could I criticize Him? I mean how could this idea go into your head? Never! How can I criticize Him? On the contrary I am criticizing those who are using Him for their own purpose.

Yogini: You better [INDIST.]

Shri Mataji: That’s it!

Yogini: [INDIST] Christ [INDIST.] …

Yogi: Yes, this was such a decision for long ….

Yogini: They said that every spiritual leader, you know, even Mahatma Gandhi, he has been so abused and he hasn’t been [INDIST.] now, and I think, I think that they are the leader [INDIST.] people with him. This is what I knew.

Shri Mataji: Yes, but somebody has to say it. (Yogis laugh) Somebody has to say these things. Isn’t?

Yogi: Somebody has to speak out and say it’s wrong.

Shri Mataji: Yes. You see, you all, you see I am giving voice to what you want, you feel within yourselves. Isn’t it? That’s what, how can I criticize something that’s My part and parcel in My being. How could you think like that?

[To a child:] Hello, Sue. [Yogis laugh] Hello Sue. Look at that! It’s good.

So, you don’t be draggling to these things. You see, this is a very important thing that you must all get your realization. All of you must get realization, because of this, this one snag, one snag in all the religious leader. This snag has done all the harm.

You see Buddha was absolutely correct, but that was not the time for giving realization to people. So He thought that if He organizes people, they will be ready to receive the realization. That’s what He organized, you see, and that’s why He created a sangham. But as all people are, I was also just the same, because I, I had to learn a lot about human beings.

You know these people are too pure to understand how human beings are crooked. Even you see some of them have said that you must not tell lies, you must not do this, you must not do this. It’s useless for human beings! If you tell them, immediately they take a Bible, [INDIST: go-?], have a congregation, have a church nicely and give lectures, “You should not tell lies, these are ten commandments. Christ came in and He is our father, He is this and that. Go home and do the same thing”… and take all the money from the people!

Is Tukarama, is there. We had a very great Saint like Gyaneshvara. Take the greatest of all is Adi Shankaracharya, the one who came. You see, He did not come to refute Buddha, He came to refute Buddhism, the way the Buddhism was going, and what He said is exactly the same that you are doing, exactly the same. He said, [INDIST: Hindi?], “Neither by Yoga nor by Sankha is this kind of a report now and all that, and by doing all these Sangha-Shakti and all that. Nothing! Only by Mother’s grace that it will work out and that one has to get realization.” He said it so clearly but you will find hardly few Indians who are supposed to be Hindus reading Shankaracharya. Can you believe it?