Seminar Day 1, Ego, Nabhi, Money, Love

London (England)

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Dollis Hill Seminar Day 1. London (UK) 27 May 1979.

[In this tape, the conversation between Mother and the Sahaja yogis is not clear in num-ber of places. Many such conversations have not been included in the text. – ed.]

[Conversation between Mother and Sahaja yogis not clear]

Shri Mataji: Is all right for you to say because he is just there, you see. He was just to be raised when he came to Me, got it. [clapping with hand]. Then – I wish all of them have even that much of you it will work out.

Sahaja yogi: Since then…

Shri Mataji: Yeh.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Yeh

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Hmm.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: [unclear] We have to save them. You see, with TM My attention is very much there, very much there. Last time we solved the problem of that “Divine Light.” That “Divine Light” is out now. Only have his brother, you see. I went to Geneva. I wanted to see TM also, but he, you see, it started raining and all that, and I didn’t go. We could have gone up to that place, would have been better, but doesn’t matter. So he, the brother, drove Me down to the center in Geneva, and said he is the one, you know, that is wrong, that. I put a bandhan, within a week’s, I mean, out in jail now and now fourteen years. Thank God. [unclear …started] So all this works out this way. So My attention is very much on TM these days, very much. And, if it works out…? So, here we are.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Very much.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Good. It’s working through awareness. If it breaks, it will break completely. You’ll see that. Because this is a bubble, this is just a bubble, it will go out. So happy about it, and this should happen. Actually, you see, even going of this Divine Life Center business. I do not know how many of them will come to Sahaja. That kind of… It’s better that it works through your awareness, so that you come to Me. Otherwise you see that kind of a what you call, a removal of one person may not… They may still come to Sa-haja Yoga, I don’t know. Because Gregoire was saying he’s going to start something in Geneva. Let’s see [if it will?] work out.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: [unclear] Yes, I mean your life will show that, see that you are different. Now, Douglas. Look at Douglas. If Douglas has impressed you, so you can imagine. Douglas can tell you what was his condition. He was in a mess because the poor fellow has been really tortured and troubled very much, was in a mess, absolutely in a mess when he came to Me. Ask him. He’ll tell you. And now he’s achieved this power that shows how great he is. See he was in a complete mess, you don’t know.

My husband is very much impressed by Douglas. For one reason, he says, “Whatever You tell him, he just obeys. He never questions.”

I said, “That’s something.”

He says, “He never feels bad.”

So, you see, one day he was watching TV for a long time. I said, “Douglas, not good for your eyes. See your eyes are very bad.” Immediately he stopped it, went away.

He said, “He didn’t even take a second to think about it and he just stopped it and went away.” “So,” he said, “but what makes him do that?”

I said, “Only thing he knows is that I do it for his good, absolute good. That’s why. [un-clear] he never feels bad, whatever you tell him.” He’s quite surprised at this. Surrender-ing I would say. The way he has achieved that power. That’s the only way. You need to be very frank. That’s how you achieve, no other way but that.

Now. Who’s is this one? Yours. Are you better? You did how many years? Five years or eight years for Hatha Yoga? Eight years?

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Five years?

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: It’s five years?

Sahaja yogis: Yes. It’s five years.

Shri Mataji This is another problem, you see, this Hatha Yoga. Very wrong.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Yes, absolutely wrong. You know, this is not Hatha Yoga. Where is “ha” and where is “tha” in it? Nothing.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: [unclear] Oh God! Now I am going to stop it absolutely, anybody is… Yes-terday, you see, that old lady was saying, “Mother, is it wrong to be non-vegetarian?” I said, “I don’t mean that.” But those who are not vegetarians, why you should force them to be vegetarians? I can understand, you see, certain meats are not good. Like I would say horses’ meat, you see, is not good, and it’s a big thing, you know. Even cows’ meat is very bad for the teeth, you see. That’s how you loose your teeth here. If I eat the cow’s meat, immediately, by mistake also, I get a swelling on My [unclear]. Complete vibra-tions start flowing from My teeth here. All My gums become swollen up. Some times even My lips have, when I’ve, when I take the soup becomes thickened like that. So that means that there is something in the fiber that is bad for your teeth which spoils or may be vibrations-wise. I do not know whatever it is. But the horses’ meat is the worst of all. Now they eat horses’ meat, even in Yugoslavia?

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Yes. That’s why I must tell you that in Yugoslavia, I went, and ate a salami, and I said, “What’s the matter with this salami?” So they told Me.

“What you make out of it?”

They said, “Horses.”

“Horses’ meat?” [laughing] Oh, I couldn’t understand it. And they eat anything. Like in China they eat snakes, you see. There was a man, head of the Scientific Research Insti-tute, and he said, “You know why we are so brainy?”

I said, “Why?”

Said, “You know in my childhood I must have eaten at least fifty-six snakes.”

I said, “That’s why you are brainy?”

He said, “Yes, the serpents are very brainy people.”

I said, “But you don’t want to become a serpent.”

“But, I want to become brainy.”

Shri Mataji: It is wrong to eat serpents. I mean, one should understand this. That’s how they are, this I am telling you about the South Koreans. He is a South Korean. He has eaten so many serpents, you see. And he said, “Only Americans can be all right if they start eating serpents. See, they are all right, they are intelligent but they are not like ser-pents. That’s why they are failing everywhere. If they could eat serpents they will be all right.” So this is what is the analysis of people.

So this horses’ meat you have to give up. All right? But you have to eat meat. No need to go to extremes. Like one side you will eat horses’ meat, tiger’s meat, every meat and on the other side you do not eat anything. You see, what am I going to do with the chicken, you tell Me? Why do you want to save them? Can I give them realization with their two legs? What is the need to save the chicken? Save the human being.

[Conversation between Mother and Sahaja Yogis]

Shri Mataji: There’s another vegetarian sitting down here. [laughing] Still you are?

Sahaja yogini: No, I wasn’t ever really.

Shri Mataji: So it’s good. You have to just do it.

Sahaja yogini: I was thinking about it when I met You but I never really did it.

Shri Mataji: I mean, they said, told Me, “Mother, we are cruel to animals.” Something like that, you see. I said, “Now, don’t worry about the animals, you see. Nothing dies.” Of course, you can do it in a better way. You may not be cruel; you can do mechanically, something like that. But you have to live on them. You see, the body has to live on their meat. Part of it has to be there.

Now the other extreme of vegetarianism is, if you see, then you will know what it is. Like Jainism they have. I don’t know if you have idea of Jains we have in India. Did you meet them anywhere? No? Thank God. See what they do is that they get all the bugs of the vil-lage in a hut. All right? And they put one Brahmin there and give him lot of money. Sometimes they give him a house also, later on, if he comes alive out of that ordeal.
And they put all that in a hut, and the Brahmin, and lock it up. And the bugs are supposed to feed them on the blood of that Brahmin. Poor fellow, you see. And then they give him a house or a money or something. And is regarded as the greatest charity done. And eve-rybody will pile up money for that – to give to the Brahmin, that he should give his blood to these bugs. Now what am I going to do with these bugs [unclear: I think]? All these Jains are going to become nothing but bugs, I can tell you, in next life. That’s what is due for them. Such foolish people. Why don’t they understand?

In evolution a man, human being is the highest. How much God has worked them from bug state to this state! And now to reduce the one Brahmin to a bug. See, you require at least billions of them. So this is what it is: they have no sense of proportion, these vege-tarians. I don’t say that you should be gluttons also. I mean [unclear] I must give all the sides of it because people start going to the other extreme. Like, you see, some were starving and fasting. So I said, “In Sahaja Yoga no fasting is allowed. You are not to fast.” In that also people have done lots of funny things. You know, this is all tantricism. It’s really surprising. Fasting. If somebody tells you to fast, you must give one real box-ing on his face. That’s what they deserve. It is sign of a real devil. He tells you to fast. He should fast himself instead of telling everybody else to fast. It’s a horrid thing to do, is to fast this way. Of course you can fast for your health or something, but in the name of God to fast is something so nonsensical; which I’ll tell you how it works out. I mean it’s not only silliness but it is cruel. It’s very cruel to make people starve. And make them fast, you see, when they are hungry. This way, I will tell you how they do, fasting in India.

Like these horrible Brahmins we have in India. All these so called Brahmins, you see they are all devils. All of them are rakshasas born as Brahmins, living on in all these temples, you see. One day these temples are going to topple down on them, and they are going to be killed under these temples where they have earned money out of people. But apart from that, anything that they do is that they have started a new method of attacking people. Like, they have got fasting. Now in the fasting system is, the day when a deity is born, that is the day they say you will fast, just imagine. Now supposing a little child is born in the family in any Indian home, or any English home, or anywhere. What joy? See everybody celebrates it and makes it… Imagine the day Christ is born, you are asked to fast. I mean that is the day is of merriment. Of course, here is another extreme is that they all end up in pub. You see. [laughing].

You see, so I want you to avoid all the extremes. Because that’s not the point. What I’m trying to say is the day, say, Ganesha is born. That is the day they will fast. All right. So you start your fasting. So what happen, Ganesha goes mad, He goes mad. Now absolutely a concrete story I’ll give you. There was one great Sahaja yogi from Poona and he got a prostrate gland problem, and he was a great worshipper of Shri Ganesha. He came to see Me. And My prasad is channa. You must have seen channa that I give as a prasad. … You haven’t got some channa today? No? Will you? All right? Let’s have it. So I’ve pre-pared also channa for you today. So this channa, I took it out and I said, “Take My prasad.”

He looked around, because on that day you are not supposed to eat any cereals. [unclear] It’s not as a cereal but channa is not one of the things used for prasad. So the other fel-low said, “Mother, today he doesn’t eat anything.”

Shri Mataji: “Why?”

He said, “Because today [unclear] is the birth of Ganesha.”

I said, “Why? Why not on Ganesha?”

“Because the Brahmins have said so.”

I said, “Really!” Look at these devils. This is the best way to insult Ganesha. So I said, “You eat it today because I tell you.” And, imagine his prostrate was out. He was per-fectly all right. Ganesha got awakened into him. On this point Ganesha was angry that on His birthday instead of celebrating it, he is going into fast. So that’s why I say that these are devils. They have found out so many ways. You see, all these devils have entered into the rituals of Hinduism. And there are so many rituals in which they have put these things.

Sahaja yogi: Christianity…

Shri Mataji: Christianity also, they have done it. But, you see, one thing about Christian-ity they have not done it so deliberately because perhaps they were possessed. But Indian ones are real ones, you know. They are the ones. They are not possessed. They are the devils. Here the Christians are possessed by devils. So little bit excuse is there for them. But for example as I told you, in Westminster Cathedral, I lived facing. And in the after-noon the only activity is the beer barrels coming in and going out, you see. [laughing] I was surprised. This is the activity going on in the church, you see. Morning time all peo-ple going to the church and afternoon all that, the barrels, you see, coming in a truck and unloading and loading in the truck. I said, “How many barrels these people consume?” These are the priests. They just drink beer, I think, they don’t drink water.

[Conversation between Mother and Sahaja yogis not clear]

[Speaking aside]: I had. I had some coffee. Thanks a lot. No, I don’t drink that. Thank you.

(Sahaja yogi saying something) [Bible, Popes re-wrote the Bible]

Shri Mataji: A hundred percent.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: To a great extent. I have never read it, you see. But I know. And whatever now for example the other day, they told Me that.. I said, “Why did they do this philan-thropic work, these churches, missionary work?” Somebody told Me that they did, Mother, because once there was a – before Christ was crucified, they brought some oil. He was to be rubbed with some very expensive oil. So Judas gave a explanation, saying that, “Why do you want to waste this oil? Why not sell it and give it to the poor?” you see. So Christ said that “Poor are all the time with you, but I am with you for a short time.” See, now in that they start a philanthropic work. I said that is that said that divinity is important and not this… So I said, “Why did they follow this?” I mean, what He said was that divinity, the divine life is much more important than looking after these poor. But they have used it in the opposite direction. I don’t know. I have not read the whole of it but must be some books they must have read.

[Conversation between Mother and Sahaja yogis not clear]

Sahaja yogi: “… I read it, Apocalypse…

Shri Mataji: Ha.

Sahaja yogi: And suddenly when I read something I had such a terrible pain here in the center of the palm.

Shri Mataji: What was that?

Sahaja yogi: I don’t know, it was a description of the destruction of the universe. And the description was symbolized as a woman. That hurts me a lot. I don’t know why.

Shri Mataji: Destruction was a woman?

Sahaja yogi: Yes…

Shri Mataji: Let’s see what’s that. I would like to see that.

Sahaja yogi: In the bible in the Apocalypse, she was called as the symbol of fornication and she was a symbol of a woman and a whore. And two pages before they were describ-ing the woman as a goddess.

[Another Sahaja yogi says something]

First yogi: Yes. Of course. But I saw it myself that the description the same two pages af-terwards hurt me so much that I had a pain here. Because I don’t know if they mixed up the thing.

Shri Mataji: You see, they should have symbolized it as some sort of serpent or some-thing would have been much better like it, but not as a woman or anything, you see. Be-cause woman, that’s very cruel. But the destruction is going to come through Kalki.

[speaking aside]

Sahaja yogi: How soon?

Shri Mataji: [unclear] No, not so soon. Don’t ask for it. Because there won’t be any emancipation then, you see [unclear]. We don’t want that just now. Let’s have more time to save all of you, all right? So we don’t want Him just now.

Shri Mataji: [speaking aside] Who else? We have to do a lots [unclear] before that. But is possibly. In the Bible also. It’s not a thing they have introduced. Yes we have to find out. You see because they wanted to put down women, might have been [unclear]. They have done all kinds of things. Here they have Mary, and then they want to put Her down. And then the Protestants, you see, they wouldn’t accept Mary as the saint. All sorts of things are there. And about Mary also very little is written down, [about?] her also. And it is in… I think because of the changing of all this… The languages have become very myste-rious also for people to understand within the confusion.

[Conversation between Mother and Sahaja yogis not clear]

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Yes. I think Julio give Me a little because everybody is having so I must have [unclear].

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: You see, the Bible, the first Bible that was written, has been turned. Actually this Bible is written five hundred years after Christ died. I don’t think that is the only one. It is through the unconscious. It has been guided. All these scriptures are guided through unconscious.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: The unconscious manifests quite a lot. But still they try to do somehow. Like Islam, Mohammed Sahib said that “Now I am the last prophet. Now nobody is going to come and tell you .” He just wanted to frighten people. That they should take to dharma, so He said like that. Now these Islam people are using it as a… But imagine anybody who says that “I will never come to you,” and, “I will never do that,” like a father. You see, these horrible people again working it out in a different way. So He has to come back.

I mean the incarnations are not obstinate people. He must have said it with the under-standing that these people will do this, because if I tell them they will accept religion properly. But He sees all of them drinking, all of them going down, doing all kinds of wrong things in the name of God. So He has to come back. How can you be obstinate? I only do like that many a times and say, “I will never go and meet you,” Then I go. Be-cause that is love. So what can you do? You forgive.

[Conversation between Mother and Sahaja yogis]

Shri Mataji: He said? Just see his vibrations. His? Just let’s see. He has right heart. You’re getting vibrations all right? You’re getting cool vibrations?

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: [unclear] But [unclear] every day you’re changing very fast.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Absolutely. I hope I’ll be able to recognize your friend from Yorkshire. You better tell Me. All right? Otherwise he may feel hurt. But the way people change I really cannot recognize [them?].

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: [unclear] you’re back? They’ve gone?

(Sahaja yogini saying something)

Shri Mataji: The one who had to go to Cambridge?

(Sahaja yogini saying something)

Shri Mataji: She decided to go earlier? Her smoking has gone down she said [unclear]. She smoked very few cigarettes.

Somebody asked Me the other day, “Why this time the power of Divinity is so much, so much that people are getting it” I said, “But the other forces are also so strong that you have to increase this power, you see.” The other forces are so very strong. You will see smoking, then drinking and all this, you see, spoils your being. From everywhere you see how much. There are sixteen horrible devils have taken birth, sixteen and six women who are the top people. Horrible. They have taken birth. Can you imagine? How much force is needed to kill one rakshasa? …was sufficient in one life. But here, just think of it. And they have entered into your own being. And how much force is needed. Inside out …

[Long conversation between Mother and Sahaja yogis]

Shri Mataji: Did he use this mantra, Naraka Sura Mardini, or something? Did they tell you any mantra for this one – for this Maheshyogi? Did some give you any mantra for this Maheshyogi…?

Sahaja yogi: Yes

Shri Mataji: What did he say?

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Naraka Sura Mardini?

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Sarvamantra Siddhi, Sarvamantra Siddhi and Naraka Sura Mardini. I think this Suraka Mantra Mardini was [unclear]. That’s the reason you have got them steady still.

I hope you get your friends down here. Yeah. That will be nice. Then I’ll come to York-shire.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Yes I will I can. We have time to go out. Second of July, third of July, again. Apart from all other programs. Now Birmingham is fixed up [unclear] for David.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Is it?

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: You asked David that Mataji has called you. He should come and see Me. Maybe one of these days. All right? David and… He said, “I’m free Mother.” The other fellow, Philip. I said, “But you get well first of all.” So David and Philip both can come. I like them [unclear]. I said Julio you can give Me a little tea. Because everybody is having so I should have, little bit.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: If so [unclear] was all right.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: …don’t want to trouble you.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Yeh, You should ask Me questions, absolutely you should.

Sahaja yogi: I’m interested…

Shri Mataji: What? You are interested in…?

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: …in the same line…

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: I’m going to talk about it. That’s why…

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: Neither he, nor his guru, nor their guru…

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: All of Babaji…

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: … horrible…

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: …horrible, that Babaji was.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: [Unclear] one of these rakshasas [unclear] I don’t know. [unclear] Was the devil of devils. Babaji. They and this Yogananda’s guru was Lahiri. And Lahiri’s guru was this horrible fellow Babaji. Now this Lahiri’s grandson is in Bombay, and he came to see Me.

So he told Me, “Because I was his grandson, Mother, I became a Kriya Yogi and did all that nonsense of taking out my tongue and this and that, and I did everything.”
Then he met another one, was this em, who’s that? Krishnamurti. Was very much im-pressed by his personality and the way he talks and all that, you see. He plays those tricks. And he said that “This man is very good.” He went to him. Then he became a Krishnamurti fan, you see. So he came to Me afterwards.

He said, “Now Mother You cannot cure me.”

I said, “Why?”

He said, “On one side I’m a Kriya Yogi. Done forever. Then I went to another horrible one who was Krishnamurti. I can give better speeches than Krishnamurti can on the things of this [unclear] talk.”

And now he told about Lahiri, Baba, his own grandfather.

And he said, “What upsets me, was the kind of man he was. He was a very materialistic person, very harsh, extremely cruel. They had no love for his children neither for his grandchildren, a very funny type of a person. And then I started thinking, ‘Why this fel-low is such a big yogi when he has no love for anyone, he has not good to anyone? Why is he?’ And so I went this another one. And there I became an expert orator. I speak very well. I give big lectures about him. I talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and nothing happens to me. Now, can you save me, Mother?”

He came to Me. You’ll be surprised. Till today we have not been able to maintain his Kundalini awakening. It comes up and goes down because suction is too much in him. Poor fellow. Every time I go to India he comes down, quietly sits down. Still we have not been able to fix it. So Bodi, one of My disciples, was so fed up with him.

He said, “Now I’m going to get a nail to put it on his head so that will fix up the Kun-dalini there.”

Poor fellow now so unhappy, very unhappy. But what to do? He said, “I can give better speeches than all these people put together. But what to do?” He said, “I used to pretend I’m very subtle, I’m very sensitive, I understand this. I used to do all that. Now I realize that it is all pretension.”

[unclear]

(Sahaja yogi saying something) Are they really manifestations of..?

Shri Mataji: Nirvikalpa.

(Sahaja yogi: Yes.

Shri Mataji: No not at all.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: They said, “They are nirvikalpa. In a way they are. Because vikalpa means doubt. They have no doubts about themselves that they are the greatest crooks, you see. So they are in nirvikalpa [laughing]. That way you can say they are in nirvikalpa.

Now we have had great saints in our country, no doubt. Even a person, like wiki. What a great saint we had! And he was in the same line as Machhindernath, Gorakhnath, then Gyaninath, and then his father there was [not clear]. And he initiated him and we had a great guru-parampara [unclear], guru tradition in that Nathpanthi. Even he, Gy-aneshwara, who was a realized soul, no doubt, and his brother was really a very great saint. Even he, when he writes about the Kundalini awakening, he doesn’t do the way you Sahaja yogis do. I wish you could read Marathi; I could make you understand. And how he has raised the Kundalini, what happens, he could give realization to two people in his life time. You see.

So, you can imagine that these devils, they talk of divinity. For people like them also it was not so. So what these people are talking about? I mean is not even the particle of that ocean, not even the particle. But they are just talking about. You cannot achieve it at all, by any chance. They cannot go near.

[Conversation between Mother and Sahaja yogis not clear]

(Sahaja yogi saying something) Maharishi

Shri Mataji: Yes, he can talk of these things, you see. But, if God is like that, you see, so He will bestow His powers in you. You have to be also omnipotent in a way. If you are one with Him, and you have to be omnipresent, and you have to be all doing. But it is just the other way round. Instead you limited yourself, and you don’t know where you are go-ing to land, and hanging in the air, you cannot control yourself. While in Sahaja Yoga you control everything. Sitting down here you can give vibrations to your mother, to your father, to anyone. You see, if you are doing all, then you should be able to do it. But you cannot even control your own movements there. He just lifts you, you hang in the air. You fall down. Now, why do you need these things? I can’t understand that.

(Sahaja yogi saying something)

Shri Mataji: You see, I mean, apart from that it is so evitable to see that you do not need …. It is so evident that you people do not need these things, because already you are raised from this earth by your planes, you have gone now to moon. Now what more do you want? It is so clear cut. Because, you see, if you understand that this is tomfoolery, that’s the way you are going to solve it. It’s just playing tricks on you. That’s all …

If you are omnipresent, all right, that is you are present in everyone, all right, you are. You can feel the vibrations of everyone. When I move My hand like this [unclear] on your hands you feel the cool breeze on your right hand, or left hand. [unclear] I’m mov-ing My own hand, I am giving this, you are feeling on your left hand. Now on your right hand.

[End of tape 1].

audio quality of tape 2 is too poor to recognize

H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi