Talk, Questions and Answers, Leeds, UK – 18th of June 1979
Shri Mataji: […] Most of them. He has done three for you, I don’t know how we could do it.
YOGINI: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: Now we can do it perhaps just …]
ANOTHER YOGINI: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: It’s also near, this fellow said, that we can’t do so …]
Shri Mataji: Now what have you done, My child? Why do all lament about you? What have you gained?
YOGINI: Not anything I do. [INDIST.]
Shri Mataji: Than what, why do you pay for it? You pay for something where you do not gain anything? What have you got?
YOGINI: I have not gained anything.
Shri Mataji: Hmm? What? What have you gained?
YOGINI: I feel a so much more relaxed person, I feel so a much more tolerant person …
Shri Mataji: You are not at all relaxed, how do you feel you are relaxed. I can show you just now you are not at all relaxed.
YOGINI: I must say it’s a bit cold. [Yogis laughing]
Shri Mataji: You are not at all relaxed, I must say. Find out. There is now a different thought.
Shri Mataji: You have to take life as it is. You see? This is not the way you can [INDIST.] but it will happen. You see, when you will have all the bangs, you might be a beginner or something, then the bangs will start you will come to you. You must understand where you are going by the path on which people have fallen and faltered into … See, the man, is the man who tried has been hurt, the person who is the bang must understand and understand for himself. If these are not so, it is not working, it is not wise. You must learn from the people who are gone ahead and have faltered. If you do not learn from them, then you are not wise. Do go ahead, have a nice time there and then come back to Me. I may be available, will be …
Why are you supporting? I don’t understand? How much money you want to pay now for this country? I have seen how it works. It’s better for you all, I do not know who else, every body know that. You cannot sell Gods Love and another thing, it must relate to something. After all you must know that when a tree comes up for blossoming time it had a seat, it had roots, it had trees, branches, then it came up, it has flowers and now the fruits are there. All right? It must have a big tree behind. And the whole thing should be related to each other. Unless and until you are related to the whole you cannot understand.
Yogi: This is all very important, so what will be …
YOGINI: This is what we heard before? Yes.
Yogi: … we have talked a lot over this. [INDIST.]
Shri Mataji: What goal are you related to, if you are related to a goal, what should happen? That you should be able to tell about another part. For example, you see our hand is, our body is old. See now, see now – because you cannot ask him this question, but you should ask Me. It is a good idea. But don’t waste your energies to much of doing that. You cannot ask any questions to Me, you are not told anything. He doesn’t know, tell you anything, what’s or ever, all right, it doesn’t matter if I tell you. See, We are the whole – all right? Your body is all right.
If I get a pinch here I know, My body knows. Another hand goes and helps you. If you are the whole – did you ever feel that we are about each other? But here see now, he was there, everybody says right is catching, left is catching. Yesterday you didn’t feel any vibrations. And he, everybody was telling Me about you. Today if I tell you, he is telling about you. And everybody says the same. How are you connected to the whole? That’s talking, it’s different, this is actualization I am saying. Talk, talk, talk, talk. We have had too much. Aren’t you satisfied with that? What has happened to you? That’s the main point.
ANOTHER Yogi: One Yogi, ah who for some time did T.M., told me that – ah – this is non Sahaji – was a great carrot stigma, they always kept a carrot on the front.
Shri Mataji: What?
Yogi: Carrot and stigma.
ANOTHER Yogi: Carrots and stigmas. They all are saying …
ANOTHER Yogi: Carrot.
ANOTHER Yogi: … a carrot. Like what we put before a donkey, to keep donkey moving and he would say – hmm – TM helps you to find that siddhis you cannot get, so you can do this, do that. So we all followed to get siddhis. But no results, accept this feeling bad, lethargic and working other people, hmm and this ridiculous flying thing. They are not flying at all.
ANOTHER Yogi: Not a bit, they have [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: linkest] one.
ANOTHER Yogi: And you do just – ah – remember? Because Gyanadev’ …
ANOTHER Yogi: I do no more.
ANOTHER Yogi: He was talking. Now Gyanadev started with the new courses for manifesting …
Shri Mataji: This …?
ANOTHER Yogi: Manifesting apples out of your hands and things. Quiet for that what turns on. And you paid another fifteen-hundred pounds [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: and after sitting in] ….
ANOTHER Yogi: In, in – ah – what’s gonna be the end of it? Say!
Shri Mataji: Go ahead! And you can’t get apples otherwise in the market?
ANOTHER YOGI/TM-MAN: I want to say that my, my interpretation of such things as known is that is a physical manifestation of a material truth, it isn’t the apple that’s much of this, it’s the fact that we don’t know, we are not interested to do things like that. May be itself doesn’t made it to no consequences. Now this flying in itself, but it just teach you that those things are possible.
Shri Mataji: He – I tell you – he won’t do any magic personally, the one who teaches magic, all right? He teaches you all these things, he can even get a billion out of your head. It is not difficult. You see, that’s what he is going to do with you, but that doesn’t matter, what I am saying you should see to the main point. I mean if you are people who are really of a superior type and you think of one thing, what is the interest of God in giving you apples like that? Is that the thing He is going to give you? What do you think of God to be? What are you asking?
TM-MAN: Is it not the proof that all things are possible?
Shri Mataji: What is possible?
TM-MAN: Just something, it is an instant perhaps.
Shri Mataji: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: no things are]
ANOTHER Yogi: Now has anyone, do you know …
ANOTHER Yogi: … is limited
ANOTHER Yogi: You see in anybody why …
TM-MAN: What I heard, that you have the authority? [Yogis laughing]
Shri Mataji: All right. You see, this is, even if the river [INDIST.]
ANOTHER Yogi: Now I told you, I was on the first course ever in Switzerland and we were told – all right? – that there were people lamenting and it was on the Video-tape. So much about that.
Yogi: I could tell you things that would make your hair stand up right away.
TM-MAN: But not whatever is you rather talked about it.
ANOTHER Yogi: Exactly.
Shri Mataji: That’s it.
ANOTHER Yogi: But why?
Shri Mataji: Apart from that you see if you are possessed. And the other day I tell you there was a lady who got possessed. She started saying all kinds of things to Me. In possession you don’t know what you talk. You see, any possessed person, you go and see the lunatics, they are possessed, how they do talk. You don’t understand what they are saying. You are possessed. That’s how they manage it, is it not if, if somebody hypnotizes the person, you see, you can make him a little child. And you can give a bottle and the person, such a big person, like sixty years old person starts sucking the bottle. Have you not seen Hitler hypnotizing? It’s just the same. It’s just hypnosis. Another is your ignorance, you see, which he has used. Complete ignorance, you have no knowledge of Indian life or Indian things. He has to pay money to Indians to go to him – just to show that he has some Indian disciples.
Yogi: I mean, you can’t honestly say in what level of truth within yourself that you can actually …
Shri Mataji: …find.
Yogi: … fly. I mean, if the ego is going to be hurt, something incredible, you got a method to yourself.
Shri Mataji: Rather difficult.
TM-MAN: But no longer, not just to me, I fly a lot to it.
Shri Mataji: Towards the same?
ANOTHER Yogi: In their methods it doesn’t matter to them very much.
TM-MAN: Because it’s the manifestation it seems to me.
ANOTHER Yogi: Never the same. They lie.
TM-MAN: Just don’t think …
ANOTHER Yogi: What is the manifestation of a lie?
ANOTHER Yogi: What is the manifestation of them? Not a [INDIST.]
TM-MAN: We all know for instance that in, in – ah – everyday-terms it is impossible for a person to [SOUNDS LIKE: agitate] – we know that in everyday ordinary ignorant terms.
Shri Mataji: What is it?
TM-MAN: But apparently some people can prove. I don’t know, you [INDIST.], I know.
YOGINI: I thought there was some …
YOGINI: Some are taking so whatever they can.
Shri Mataji: You see, don’t listen to rumors.
YOGINI: How that?
TM-MAN: That is well.
Shri Mataji: Would you pay for rumors something?
Yogi: But that’s not about rumors.
Shri Mataji: Why do you pay for rumors?
TM-MAN: But I am not going to.
Shri Mataji: That’s what [INDIST.] now. You see what I am saying. If somebody has sent you, all right, forgive.
Shri Mataji: All right. You must, that’s what it is. That’s why they have come up so much, but I tell you they are first class people. They way they have done it, I must say My hats off to their sincerity. The way they are admitting it is a great thing and for you to open your eyes now to see for yourself.
Yogi: Maharshi [INDIST.] says, Shri Mataji, shall I tell him about Maharshi’s attitude to women?
Shri Mataji: You better tell.
TM-MAN: The attitude to what?
ANOTHER Yogi: To my wife.
ANOTHER Yogi: We wanna hear you all, please.
ANOTHER Yogi: But – I am, I will not proscribe, I was one of the chiefs of the movement, I was national leader in various countries. My wife has been initiated for twelve years. My wife was slept, you could say raped by Maharishi in sixty-nine. She got pregnant, she aborted it. I can name at least seven women that he has slept. They did, believe me …
Shri Mataji: At least [INDIST.]
Yogi: … more than I could tell you, which would make your hair stand on their head.
TM-MAN: I would not strain any more.
YOGINI: You can’t [INDIST.]
TM-MAN: [INDIST.] it was volantly [voluntarily ?], these abuses
ANOTHER Yogi: What?
YOGINI: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: He carried on finding, but he don’t find at all.]
ANOTHER YOGINI: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: Do you want to tell more?].
ANOTHER Yogi: Why, because I honestly and did there honestly believe that Maharshi would help her.
YOGINI: Ah, do you know?
Shri Mataji: You see they put him on a pedestal, because they are all ver-, you are all very simple people, are very simple people, you see, and if somebody knows how to make a show you can be befooled. Even the cleverest of Indians were befooled once like that. You see, We had one man, he was a different type of a person, he came to India saying that he has lots of money in the foreign currency, this, that and is a very big Doctor, he called himself Doctor [INDIST.]. Of all the persons, of Prime-Minister Jawaharlal Nehru whom you know, is a very great man and a great person and nobody can believe that he could be befooled.
He and his wife befooled him so much that they gave him, you won’t believe, three hundred Crores of rupees, three hundred Crores of rupees, without even finding what sort of a man he was. Can you imagine? And this man started a shipping company, but he was a cheat, you see? Even with that money he could have managed very well, if he had some sense. But he started cheating and he was found out in two years from now. Then he was put in jail. They had to freeze all the assets, but nobody could believe that a person like … even our prime-minister today went for the inauguration with that fellow.
If you read his story you will be shocked. Indians are very clever here, that way, because you see they are quite cunning, they can, as they can cheat others, they know more who cheats them. You see, one better than the other, We can say, but even in India, in that country when easily people are not cheated. You can do something else to them, but cheating is difficult.
You can overpower them with your guns or something, but you cannot cheat them. In cunningness they are very clever. And they were cheated and they believed into it till yesterday. Imagine, when he came out of the jail he threatened somebody and something and he [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: did not really care far away from it.] Can you imagine? And he, there are so many like that.
TM-MAN: Is everything that he says correct, so said the Maharshi, even to persons as he says. What did he want – ah – learn to meditate, they were asked to [INDIST.] a thought, so it’s not to give a Mantra away and he had great words, like you do. He has asked him about the mantra. He filled secretly proud, that these people who had given one promise stupidly one man, it’s a great [INDEST.] they are terribly easily to You on the other day.
Shri Mataji: What does he say?
ANOTHER Yogi: What he is saying is this, to the, the felt proud because someone may have promised to someone on one day. They should easily break it, or give it up to [INDIST.] another time.
Shri Mataji: If you are made a promise to a crook you should. It doesn’t matter even to tell Me or not. These are not Mantras, nor anything, but I tell you what –
TM-MAN: I don’t think it matters particularly, I just find it quiet surprising now that You who is, who, who is helping to show the way to enlightenment should talk by making people, or not making but asking people to break promises they have made.
Shri Mataji: Of course, you have made a promise to a devil I should not ask you? Oh I feel, see, you must understand that promise that is made to God is a promise and not made to a crook. For example, I’ll give an idea. This is a thing – you have lost your discrimination. Discrimination should be like this, for example it is nice to tell you the truth, all right? You must tell the truth. This was said by – long time back – one, one of our earliest writers, that he said that truth must be said and the, you must also tell, say something that is very, very appeasing and appealing, that is called as priya. He means say the satya and the priya. Then Krishna came and people asked Him, how do You combine this, because if you say something that is truth-full may hurt others, they will not like it, it may not be priya, it’s not priya, You see. So Krishna said, there is a difference. You must understand with discrimination between the two.
Say now something is, I tell you may not be today very much appreciable to you, but it is the truth. It will be appreciated by your spirit. So what did He say? Satyam vade, means, say the truth. Then He said the second sentence, hitam vade, in-between the two He said, hitam vade and priyam vade. So that means, you must say something which is for the well-being of your spirit. So ultimately it also becomes good and pleasing. Today you may not like what I am saying, but it will be pleasing you. Now discrimination sometimes you need. Now very simple: You see, I have lost that sense. That’s what they do, by possession. For example, “always tell the truth” is a thing everybody understands. Now somebody is coming with a tiger, say to kill you. He comes and asks Me, Mother where is that fellow I want to kill. Shall I tell him, he is there? Tell Me. You should not!
TM-MAN: I don’t really think that –
Shri Mataji: All right, I tell you –
TM-MAN: [INDIST.] on, on, on what I am talking about.
Shri Mataji: This is absolute detached, because you are not understanding it. Now what I am saying, what should I tell you, why should I not tell him? The reason is, it is called as [INDIST.], means it is un-authorized. He is not authorized to ask Me. He is not authorized to ask Me, that where is the person. Now as you have come to Me for this thing your chakras make no difference, till you get your realization. And why I asked you? I would like to see how much you are still identified with him. If you are identified with him, I cannot do anything about you, because evil is evil, good is good.
TM-MAN: Can I take your followers, who have a great deal of moral sense, for two minutes in the garden?
Shri Mataji: They have much more moral sense than anyone of you.
TM-MAN: [INDIST.] which You make to break their words.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no. Your idea of morality is very different. It is not a morality of the [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: tuggs]. The [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: tuggs] can combine together and keep – you see – promises.
TM-MAN: I don’t think it makes, I don’t think at this stage it matters whether or not Maharshi is right or whether he isn’t. The fact, the matter is –
Shri Mataji: Now that’s quite enough and that’s how it’s a fact –
TM-MAN: No, not at all, if I make, if I make a promise I’ll stick by it, and I think it’s seems like a cheap trick, to want to get them on to break that promise.
Shri Mataji: What cheap? You see, what am I getting by cheap tricks? What am I getting out of these cheap tricks, I mean when you say this cheap trick, I would like to know what am I getting out of these cheap trick, why should I do it? Cheap tricks are on him, to break a promise for him.
TM-MAN: Possibly in the end I laugh –
Shri Mataji: Hmm?
TM-MAN: Possibly in the end I laugh, I got in the end a laugh. One paper [INDIST.] –
Shri Mataji: You got it, you are not a judge, you are not a judge of Me. I do not think your laughter. An Idiot can laugh at someone, what can you do about it? It’s not the point. The point is what am I asking you, your Mantra you have bought, because once you give up your Mantra you give up your miss-identification. Otherwise I cannot help you.
TM-MAN: Now possibly if You would have explained that before hundreds of reasons for giving up the Mantra, because that wasn’t explained in it, it just came out of people, quite easily.
Shri Mataji: You see –
TM-MAN: In other words, have there been an exploitation before hand , in an acquirement between two people whom you stop to meet them You –
Shri Mataji: Now I tell you why –
TM-MAN: – [INDIST.] stop to meet You.
Shri Mataji: I did this when I started talking this Lady talking this and you are talking that. At least some who have got realization would not [INDIST.] also God knows. Because you are not talking, that’s somebody else talking through you and they are maneuvering it. At least I didn’t want to miss the chances of others. That is why I did not discuss. I always give a lecture, but this time I did not, because I know you are all going to talk and talk and talk. To that Maharshi how much did you talk and how much did he talk to you? But with Me you are taking all the liberties and saying all these things to Me. Why? Have I given you money? Why are you saying all these things to Me?
Shri Mataji: It’s a fact.
TM-MAN: I said, the TM-Movement …
Shri Mataji: Than why, you are –
TM-MAN: [INDIST.] it is a right of men, it is a fact –
Shri Mataji: Just ask Me. You have come here to take something from Me and you are talking all these things to Me. Did you say anything to that Maharshi-Yogi of yours. Why didn’t you ask Me?
YOGINI: It’s not the debate you have.
Shri Mataji: You see, you must understand it’s no question of debate and that’s why I didn’t want to talk, because I know that all of you would have talked. You see, this is it, that’s why I did not talk, because you think you are all very brainy people. The way you are befooled you must understand that. Not to feel hurt. He has really befooled you. Accept this fact and that is the reason you do not want to accept.
Yogi: No ask for me.
Shri Mataji: It’s all miss-identification.
Yogi: We really have enough.
ANOTHER Yogi: It’s all right.
TM-MAN: Would You tell Me to me please, that when we have finished, with, with what things asked –
Shri Mataji: You see, I will tell you a last word on Maharshi-Yogi. You see, I will tell you one thing, I am not interested in what you do with him or how you deal with him and how much you give to him. I’m not interested.
Shri Mataji: I’m only interested in introducing you to yourself, to giving you realization. I have nothing to do with that man, but if you ask about him, I have to tell you the truth.
Shri Mataji: You see I have nothing to do with him. You go ahead with him, you give all your money to him, when you are bankrupt, even then you’ll come, I will give you, all right?
Shri Mataji: But as far as he is concerned, if you ask me the question I will have to tell you the truth ….
TM-MAN: I wasn’t going to ask about anything to do with TM ….
Shri Mataji: Now you ask something else.
TM-MAN: …. or Maharshi or anyone.
Shri Mataji: …. because you see, I don’t want to ….
TM-MAN: I want to ask something ….
Shri Mataji: …. talk about him anymore.
TM-MAN: No I don’t and this is why I ….
Shri Mataji: All right, now tell Me, …
Shri Mataji: … what is it you are asking?
TM-MAN: A-ham, what is the thing that you are going to ….
Shri Mataji: …. give you ….
TM-MAN: …. Give and I remember the best, the nicest thing I have heard is that You are teaching us to relate to the people and to – ah – release of illness of all description, to help to do that any more …
Shri Mataji: Of course.
TM-MAN: Is it correct?
Shri Mataji: You see now you must, you are talking that thing, what, what makes you sick, you must know, what makes you sick, why do you get sick, how are you made, what are your problems, what are you? All these things you have to understand. Not just to accept Me in the way you have accepted other nonsense, you see, and that is why I wanted you to open out, but if you have these Mantras, these Mantras are the names of devils and if you keep them with you, if I know them I know how to ban them.
TM-MAN: Why have you not such meekly [??] for a Mantra.
Shri Mataji: Because I could do that. I could do that.
Shri Mataji: But within, you see the problem is, so it is that he got the vibrations and everything, but I knew it, he is going to catch it again. And he catches, he catch Markandeya. You see, some people grow very fast, but some do not. They are mediocres you can say. You go on like this all the time. We have people who are so. Now We have thousands of people here. You can ask them. Some of them shot up like that. Now he is sitting here, he is from TM, Martin. How much time it took to settle down? Not because he is mediocre, because he went one to another to another to another … Now he is settled.
You must understand what are we, what are our problems, what are we inside, what is our subtle being, how to raise it and how to do it. It was all right to give a lecture, otherwise I would have given you a big lecture, all right? Till you have argued with Me much more. There is only two persons actually who doing arguing on this point. But otherwise they would have been the whole thing, don’t you think so?
[Shri Mataji laughs, then the Yogis too]
He knows it, he knows that, because he is seeing something happen. You see, I wanted you to see for yourself. You see, if this thing is down, all right? And I tell you that in this school there are these things [INDIST.]. You are not going to believe, because you have freedom to argue with Me, you are not like you are with Maharshi or anyone of these. You have freedom. You are not going to believe Me when I tell you there are these things. It’s better to put the light on and show the person. All right?
There could be some blind people, still, but at least you will know those who have eyes. The blind you can’t see each other, but at least those who have eyes can. Those who do not have eyes, we can open them later on, but at least eighty percent people will have eyes to see. All right?
And another thing is people who would be here. You see their brain is over-active, they are in a speed, they are over-active. It is necessary to sooth their brain a little bit, their speed is to be reduced and then talk to them. They have to be tuned. [INDIST.] You will change, no doubt. Most of you will. How many will raise this I do not know, because I should say most of them should, because I have a feeling that England became people of very good, I feel that.
I don’t know about the Americans, I haven’t seen many of them, but Indian TM-people are the worst. I could not give realization to one person in India who was from TM. Actually We were avoiding them. We never wanted them. You will be surprised how My disciples could stand outside, asking them, have you been to TM? They said yes. There is no program. One of them rang Me up. I said, no, there is program, I don’t know why. They said, Mother we don’t want to break our head.
You see, they were working hard, We were not working hard, you saw that. You are doing nothing. Now you first of all change your attitude towards Me and Sahaja Yoga, but this is not a shop. And you are not bargaining for anything, more over it is a gift to you. If you want to have it, have it. Otherwise just don’t have it.
[a Baby cries: da da da, the Yogis laugh, Shri Mataji to the baby: da da da.]
TM-MAN: [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: That was not my question at all.]
Shri Mataji: Now in Sanskrit it means gift, [INDIST.] yes. In Sanskrit means gift: “da da da”.
[aside:] Have you meet?
I must say that, I am sorry for all that did happen and you are going to feel sorry also. As a Mother I, you don’t know how I feel … They are all My children, you don’t know how I feel But be wise, try to be wise. If you have no wisdom I cannot help you. That is one thing I cannot put into you, you have to be wise. On small things like that you slip off. I am here to give you the ocean and you are closing your eyes. Do you know even when a little thing goes into the eyes you cannot see the sky. Don’t do like that. I am not to gain anything out of you. Keep yourself open, you are going to be the looser, not Me.
TM-MAN: I wasn’t really attacking you.
Shri Mataji: Ah?
TM-MAN: I wasn’t really attack-
Shri Mataji: Nobody is attacked.
TM-MAN: Now I was a bit closed, my eyes were very wide opened.
Shri Mataji: Now the way you said, you see, what I am saying …
TM-MAN: You are talking to TM, I could have attacked TM [INDIST.] and to me both of them are wrong, because they are going, a-ham, to [INDIST.LOOKS LIKE: Astemoon]
Shri Mataji: How many have you be, how many years have you been with TM.
TM-MAN: Two years.
Shri Mataji: Now how many times, how much time have you been with Me?
Shri Mataji: Will you please have some patience?
TM-MAN: Yes, yes.
Shri Mataji: All right. Please sit down. Before that you will have some patience, all right? If it works out, well and good, if it doesn’t work out it’s all right. If you think you can go you can go.
TM-MAN: I bought the [INDEST.]
Shri Mataji: You better go, because you are spoiling every-bodies chances.
TM-MAN: I am sorry, I am sorry …
Shri Mataji: If you are disturbing everyone, you can go, …
TM-MAN: All right.
Shri Mataji: … that’s the best.
TM-MAN: Okay. I must really say I appreciated what we have done [INDIST.]
Shri Mataji: No, no, no. Why should you say like that?
TM-MAN: Because I really did, because [INDIST.] …
Shri Mataji: You are disturbing for nothing at all, you don’t want to hear what I have to say. When are you going to give Me a chance? Here you are, you are saying I should have discussed. All ready it has around one hour has passed, you are not being satisfied talking about it. Now –
Yogi: Just listen to Her. Shri Mataji: – nothing for you to open. Why don’t you keep quiet for a while?
Yogi: Just listen to Her answers.
Shri Mataji: Just listen for a [INDIST.]
Yogi: Please, bitte.
TM-MAN: I am doing.
Yogi: Yeah, just listen.
Shri Mataji: You can’t,
TM-MAN: I just answer –
Shri Mataji: You better go out for a while.
TM-MAN [angry:] I go out, I really! Was it that.
YOGIS: He can getting a tab. [Yogis laugh]
Shri Mataji: That’s better. [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: All the children have to be asked.] [INDIST.] He will be all right. Nothing at all, you see, what I am saying. He got his realization, he got his vibrations and some sense else. [INDIST.] This is the position, you see now, where are you and where are they. You see, I told you, that will be a [INDIST.] All of them are not going on the same level. It doesn’t matter. So, let’s talk of something else, all right? [Shri Mataji laughs] That’s how we stand.
[aside:] Put your hand here, you see this [INDIST.] the right has to be moved. You can get in one hand – tell Me, all right. Come along! Ha ha! It’s gone.
YOGIS: [various INDIST.]
Shri Mataji: All right, you give one [INDIST.] You see, we clean ourselves, ourselves, all right? And our self can be cleansed. Let it, just keep your [INDIST.] I could not take out your watch, [INDIST.] all right? Just listen!
You see, if it does not work out, it does not work out. If he comes up, you will be surprised, My two daughters are not yet realized, My own daughters are not. What can I do, what – you see, it is a thing that has to work out, if it works out very good, if it not works out – time! What can you do about it? You see, We can only try to work it out, try to cooperate, that’s all. It is a gift of God, it’s a grace of God, it has to come into you. If it works, well, if it does not work, then you cannot blame Me for that. Now you should blame yourself. Try to – this is what you are seeking.
YOGIS: [INDIST.] [Yogis laugh] The children are [INDIST.] [Yogis laugh again]
Shri Mataji: They know how to manage, these children know it better. They said, why bother Mataji, let’s [INDIST.] go on! [Shri Mataji laughs] It’s all right.
Yogi: I mean it, I need a lot more communication.
YOGIS: I agree. I agree with you.
Shri Mataji: You just have patience, all right. Again the same thing I tell you, you have been with Me and you follow one hour or two hours, all right? You did something, it’s a very fast subject that I am going to give you, the complete, the most secret, the most human talk, all right? Come along. But one attitude, again I am telling you, that you are doing it for your own wealth. All right?
Secondly that – when you want – you should change your attitude, that you are going to a market. It’s not a market, it is not a selling any things here and instead of I be with you, actually you are with Me. That has to change next, all right? So try to understand this point. This is what it is. Say if I am a divine Person, then you have to please the divine Person. The Divinity is not going to fall at your feet, all right? You understand that? And when you understand that, then you can go further.
You see, if you go to any Guru, real Guru in India, first they will hang you by your neck, then by your legs and [Shri Mataji laughs] till they reached you with a [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: paper, cinta they call it], you see and they will not allow you to come near there. Anybody who comes, they throw the stones. They’ll go on torturing till they find you are absolutely ready they will not agree. Me, I am different, I am a Mother, I teach you and understand you. Apart from anything, the greatest desire is to save you people. All right?
Have you got this chart here or something to talk at night? If you go to the [INDIST.] I will tell you.
Yogi: It’s all right.
OTHER YOGIS: [INDIST.]
Shri Mataji: Who is there? What’s he saying?
Yogi: [INDIST.] agreement.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no.
ANOTHER Yogi: Now I must sit here with my feet towards you and I [INDIST.]
Shri Mataji: All right, there is the protocol.
Shri Mataji: Say now, supposing if I am Christ, you have to be respect-full, you see? Something because of that type I [INDIST.]. Supposing they do that, it has an effect, all right? But you have to be respect-full. So here it is, now can, have a look at it. [INDIST.]. Now turn round a little, I will tell, now, come along, see for yourself, isn’t?
Here it is. You can put the other way round, yes. See now, this – ah – picture is here of you which shows what you are, all ready and how much you are developed up to the human level. This is the human being as it is to Me, all right? Now these are the subtle centers within you. Now if these centers are in within you or not you can see with your naked eyes. When the Kundalini moves you can see them moving. You can even see the pulsation of the Mother Kundalini. In certain cases you see them very clearly when there is obstruction.
Now which is the Kundalini – [aside: INDIST.] sit here! – is that you see a coiled thing that is the Kundalini. Now what is this Kundalini? This is a renew, a germinated force within us, which gives us the second birth, which connects us to the whole. Like as every instrument has a coil you see which connects it to the mains, in the same way God has placed His residual consciousness within us and that triangular bone for our re-birth.
Now this has got, if you see there are seven centers: one – two – three – four – five – six – seven centers, which are the subtle centers within us and they give manifestation to the gross plexuses which we know in the medical science. Moreover if you see for the left-hand side, the blue line, it represents the aspect of the existence within us. That is also aspect of God. And when this aspect is shut off, there is destruction.
The other side, if you see is the yellow line which gives us the aspect of creativity, of our mental activity and physical activity. Now both these aspects are represented outside in the gross. These are the subtle points. These are the undercovers by the left-hand side sympathetic nervous system and the other one by the right-hand side sympathetic nervous system. Now our evolution up to the point you are is shown by the white line that is there in the center.
Now the central line is called as Sushumna, which represents, which manifests outside in the gross as parasympathetic nervous system. All right? So we have three systems within us, one is the left-side one, which gives us existence, the right-side one which gives us mental and physical being and the central one which gives us our evolutionary state, for which we have evolved.
Now we must think why we have evolved from amoeba to this stage as a human being? Now if you are evolved with some purpose there must be some purpose for us to be [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: unfolded]. As we are not yet perfected we have not known our meaning, we are you can say confused and worried. So there must be some method God must have planted within us to be that. It must be His plan, has to be, because if He has created this creation, He is not going to destroy it.
So now what is that thing that is within us is this, the Kundalini, this residual force which is placed in the triangular bone, which rises, passing through all the chakras and pierces through the brain which we call baptism in the Christianity, that is the fontanel bone here and then it enters, our attention enters into the subtle being that we are, by which we get connected with each other.
Now you can turn your faces I tell you, you can turn your faces. You all are like say birds and there is a string going through Me, but you cannot feel the string, you are on the bird, your attention is on the bird. So supposing by any chance it happens, it’s a happening, you, your attention goes onto the string – then you can pass into every-bodies bird. In the same way the collective consciousness is established within you. It’s not talking, it’s not lecturing, it is happening, it’s actualization which is being promised long time back, that you are going to get your own self-realization, that you are going to be the fruits and that you are going to be one with the whole is being promised by all the religions and all the scriptures.
Now why these religions look so separate, because the integrating point was not there, otherwise they are all flowers on the same tree. And they are taken away by the people, they say, this is my religion, this is my religion. So they become dead and ugly, that’s how the religions are formed, you see? But the basic point is that all the great incarnations, who came on this Earth, exist within us from all these centers. Now let’s start from down below, all right?
The lowest point is the center called as Mooladhara Chakra. Now what is Mooladhara? Moola means the root. It is the support, support of the root and what is the root – is the Kundalini. So this support of the root lies below, below the Kundalini and this is the one that manifests the pelvic plexus within us which also controls sex. Now this center doesn’t play any role in Kundalini piercing, what you call [SOUNDS LIKE: chaida], it just lies there dormant down below and looking after the protocol of the Kundalini.
On it resides the Deity of Ganesha, who is the embodiment of innocence. There, from there the innocence comes forward. Now He, this Ganesha has incarnated on this Earth as Jesus Christ. He is the One who is the embodiment of innocence and is the highest, the purest Incarnation. The reason is, because His body was also made of the principle of Brahma, means principle of, say, what should I say, from Brahmadeva [SOUNDS LIKE: what should I say] principle of divine Power, I say, for the time yet, because to that I will come to that later on, what this Brahma-Tattwa is, all right?
Now that is the principle, is, He is the embodiment of that. That’s why His body was resurrected. Now this is a very important Chakra, because this is the center where the innocence is there. Now see what this Mahesha means to Me, now when We come to this center. To Me He is the jump of [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: arya], Him is the jump of [INDIST.SOUDS LIKE: arya]. Now the center of, this center is that important making your seat, so you jump on your seat. So basically that is the force, that is the force of Kundalini. If that Chakra is harmed then it’s very difficult to raise the Kundalini. So first you do is to finish that. You see, the chances of your realization will be reduced by so many, he had this problem. He had this problem. So many of you had, he had this problem. Who else was there?
Shri Mataji: [INDIST.]
Shri Mataji: He had this, they all had this problem. There was another gentleman whom I remember very badly who made it hard to bring it up. All right? So this – ah what’s the gentleman, on the left-hand side he is sitting, or the one who was your friend …
Yogi: You mean Peter.
ANOTHER Yogi: Peter [INDIST.].
YOGINI: It’s Peter who just came up so.
Shri Mataji: [INDIST.] He had that problem, very bad. I don’t know, he must have jumped too much. Perhaps he [INDIST.] for that, that’s all right, but now it’s better. So what I am saying, now to hit up on that center which is the basis of your divinity, innocence. See the subtle attacks he has made, all right? So – and then their Kundalini is waiting there for the moment to rise.
Now the other centers are also there.
The green center, you see, is in the center here. It’s, it manifests the solar plexus within us. The solar plexus looks after all these areas on the stomach, physically and mentally it looks after other things. Like say, if you are a fanatic, it is spoiled, if you are a fanatic it is spoiled. If you starve too much, fast too much, it is spoiled. If you eat too much also, any extreme you do, it gets spoiled. It is also spoiled, you see, all the Ten Commandments that we have in the Bible are represented by these ten petals that are there. You see?
Around that, is that area where actually it exists in the stomach of God, we can say, this is the Bhavasagara. This is what we have to cross, you see, there is a Void, from there to there is a Void and this we have to cross. And this is the thing which is crossed by the Kundalini-awakening.
Now what happens that around that, that water-like thing that you see there, you see that is the one where ten, the primordial Masters were born, gurus, primordial gurus. Now they were incarnated of innocence of all this ten aspects and they were incarnated on this Earth, say from Abraham, Moses, then we had Mohammed Sahib we can say, and we have Shirdi Sai Nath, then Nanaka, Janaka, all these people incarnated as Gurus.
Now what do they do? They, they, they give you sustenance, they give you sustenance. Now sustenance is, is, for human beings is different, for animals it’s different. For example now this is gold, all right? What is the sustenance of gold, is that it is untarnished, it cannot tarnish, you see? What is the sustenance of carbon, that is a valency, you see, it is just tetravalent, all right? In the same way, what is the sustenance of human beings? That’s these Ten Commandments which, according to us, have to stay intact. If you miss that, then you’ll get spoiled. Human beings can catch if you loose these sustenance, all right?
So this is what is religion, if you can follow, because –the English word I don’t know – but the Sanskrit-word “religion” comes to us from a word known as “dharayeti sa dharma”, means “the one which is sustained”, is the dharma, is the religion, that sustains us, by which we become human.
By which we become animals is the ani-, is the dharma of the animals. By which we become human beings, is our sustenance. And this sustenance is maintained by the Gurus in that area and they look after us, they are born again and again, again and again to tell us about it.
Then, people might say, what’s wrong in drink? Why did Mohammed Sahib said: do not drink, Nanaka has said, Moses said that you should not drink. Why He did this? Now there is a reason which you cannot stop it. If I tell you, don’t drink, you cannot drink. I give you a very good reason for that, absolutely scientific, absolutely scientific, but you won’t stop. So what should I do? You see which is the other way is, why do you drink? First of all I should find out the reason for it.
I find out the reason that because you get bored, that’s why. So because you do not want to face the reality, you have an escape. So I do it in such a way that you say face the reality. Once you face the reality, which is so beautiful, you start enjoying it, you don’t even remember that you have to drink. People have to remind you and when you drink you get a stomach-pain, so you just don’t drink. Automatically you do not drink. You are not to be told, that you don’t do this, you don’t do that. That’s not necessary. Just by raising your Kundalini it can work.
Now all these Sahaja Yogis who are here used to drink, used to take drugs. They had given up their jobs, you are supposed to be seeking. Now they are perfectly all right, they have given up drinks, they are enjoying themselves, they have given many Realization, they are curing people.
So this can be done if your sustenance is put right.
[GAP in the audio]
… which is decided by Shri Krishna and there are sixteen petals, which means we have got sixteen sub-plexus which look after our nose, our eyes, our ears, our throat, our [INDIST.] the joints and the tongue and all that and also that. So this Vishuddhi is a very important thing, because it’s all our face, Vishuddhi is all our face. Now if your left Vishuddhi is catching that means that there is something wrong with your idea about yourself, that you are suffering from a kind of a guilt, maybe, or maybe that your relationship about your sister, or the sublime relationships you are not sure about it.
You do not, say for example a person has a bad Vishuddhi. Sometimes it maybe that he is having a bad time with his Sister. He is not treated very well. You see your sisters, can you imagine, your sisters to [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: cry sometimes] and if you have a bad time with your sister this can work out. If you just say that I, I, I love my sister – finished, it comes all right. With very –
Yogi: How about the brother?
Shri Mataji: Ah? A brother is, brother is right heart, right heart, the brother is right heart. For mother is heart and father is also right heart. You see, brother is right heart and this is, left is – ah – sister. And also this points [Shri Mataji shows] brother, but I won’t say it is so much as brother as here [Shri Mataji shows]. You see it is a very [INDIST.] way, because your elder brother you can feel it in the right heart and the younger brother here [Shri Mataji shows].
It’s quiet, in details if you go it’s very interesting to see all these relations be in such a [INDIST.] way. Why? Because you have chosen them. When you are born you choose your father, mother, everyone, you choose all of them. That’s how family is very important, but the way the families are today, you see, I can’t even tell for example if I have to tell him, you will tell Me, no, no, my father is a very bad man and he does this, he does this, he does …. You see the whole system is spoiled because of the Dharma, because of the Religion, you see? A father doesn’t understand his duties as a father. The son doesn’t understanding his duties as a son.
You see, who had asked you to go experimenting with everything. They have also experimented with family-life. With everything they have, be on our own, children are on their own. Now if you are on your own you are cancer, you have a cancer within you. How? Because the cell which becomes on its own has no relationship with the whole, is a cancer, say, is a malignant, say. Say – ah – say loyal is there Nabhi, they can’t understand, supposing somebody says, I’m on my own, I don’t observe any laws. All right, you better go to jail. That’s what it is. In the same way when we start doing all these things without relating ourselves to the whole, we commit all these mistakes and by which we spoil our chakras.
Now this Chakra that is in the centre is, is on the cross of – We can say the, where the optic nerves cross each other, We can say optic – hmm – chiasma as it is called. On that point it is a very subtle center, which controls your ego and superego, as you can see it … all right. And it controls your eye-sight at the back. Now he had, say ah, a weak back because of his eye-sight you can see that here [Shri Mataji shows], and this weakness, you see, was stopping the Kundalini. First the Kundalini was sublime there, you will get up a much better eye-sight and even not Me it is backed out, come, because the light when it will start spreading here it will be absolutely a different point. I give you an example of this man, you see, he wrote a [INDIST.] of area, he was suffering from cancer and I shouldn’t tell you, but I did cure him and he [INDIST.] cured. The secretary was here early, he told Me another story when I went to his house, the Presidents house and this first secretary told Me there is one boy who, one girl, she is gone blind, because there was fire in the house, you can say her eyes opened out, her eyes are open but she is absolutely blind and she cannot see and she just sees downwards. So I said all right, that’s it, let’s have a look at her. She came down and what I found when she saw the fire some spirit went into her, because she got a fright. So that was all setting down. Just as sure as you have a light, just like this she looses her fright. There was light in My head and in My hand and the girl started looking. Because she saw the stripes on my hat, you see, she was very innocent child, when she saw this [INDIST.] was there. And then she said I can see it and she was absolutely cured, hundred percent.
There are many cures like that, but what I am trying to say, that it is only possible if you have a light yourself. Supposing you are not enlightened, then how can I enlighten another candle? So that’s why I said, first of all get enlightened. Then we talk about it. All right? Otherwise there would have been at least [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: cowing] numbers, I can’t say. But at least eleven numbers are, I say we mean, are [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: delated]. I have to deal with only two person and I couldn’t sell it one, but another one did came to Me, thank God. So you see that one, that is what, this was, I would never had another talking, all would have talked so much that there would have been no talk. So I said, better let them find it, because it’s a better idea so that I can talk to them and have some [INDIST.] all right.
So this is the Chakra which We have got here [Shri Mataji shows], it is, which is in the center, which manifests at the back and in-front. Now in-front this manifests where you have got a [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: trunk]. Actually it can’t be [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: called] a center We should say and this one is the Kartikeya, that is one of His powers. So Christ has come at this center and if he pierces from here than He is in the center, on the optic chiasma [INDIST.] there. He came here because He said, I am the gate. That is the gate, you can see that, He is on the gate. And She came here to show how to cross the gate. So His resurrection is this [INDIST.] chakra. That means you all can be resurrected. He had made the gate for us and we are all going to be resurrected through that gate. He didn’t say, I am the destination. He said, I am the path and I am the gate, I am the door.
But He is not the destination. Now where is the destination? Is there – disappears the darkness. This center is to be opened out and that is the Mothers job. And if that is done, then only you have a meaning, otherwise it has no meaning. Any work that is not completed has no meaning. In the same way you have no meaning, you don’t know why you are here. What is your meaning? Once that breaks properly then the vibrations start flowing through you, then you can see the manifestation. Within one minute you can start it, it’s a very moment, you, out of you something will started growing.
And imagine, you can’t partake it, too much vibrations of yourself, because you know, as I told you, TM is a horrible thing, that you should know who this fellow is, but some of the people came. I was so horrid [INDIST.] and [INDIST.] point out, it would not add to it. It’s just odd, behaving like a wounded Mother, all kind of taking Her names, hate like [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: endorsing] is that, very unhappy. She is your own Mother! And She is the One who has lived with you all your lives, all your seeking. And She was just saying that I cannot come up and I am wounded. And there were [INDIST.] She looks wounded, and that’s how I came to meet this horrible fellow whom you know.
I am not telling you any to befool you, if I tell you, he was shocked. He must have gone wounded [INDIST.] how to go back. So when he started with his Mantra may I started giving you realization to clear people. Otherwise you would have got caught up. And some of the Sahaja Yogis were very upset and they said, Mother what about these TM-people? They are very pity-full. What do I have to do? I said, I know.
Now it is wisdom that you must seek God and then you come to Sahaja Yoga. Get your realization first! Do not just start talking about it, with your [INDIST.] guest. Get to it, learn it, I will tell you all the [INDIST.], everything I will tell you, every details about it. But now what his priority is, that also I will tell you. He takes you either to the right or to the left. With anyone, where will you [INDIST.]. Many here did sympathize. What happens others? Left-hand side is the subconscious area and beyond the subconscious area is your gate to sub-consciousness. There all these types you must try, horrible and bhoots and all that, they live there, there live everybody dissatisfied souls and they are all there.
As soon as you cross over it gets over. Now the names that he had given are the names of the left-side bhoots hugged, that type of people are there. But with Christian names he has given all the left-side names which again all start to the left side and for the grown up people on the right-hand side, because when you are grown up, then your ego is developed and you start moving on the right-hand side. That’s why he has given you the other one. But it has only a meaning up to this, say for example [INDIST.] all right? So I move on the, this side from the line, but after I need not, this is the main thing, they [INDIST.] is true, the rest of them are nothing, but just bhoots.
You tell people now for example, a Mantra [INDIST.] “you are raised up with pigs”, all right? It isn’t a Mantra of Chakras, it isn’t a Mantra of Deities, it isn’t a Mantra of Kundalini and whatever it has to do with a Mantra? Another thing and it is very simple to understand as I have told that before to you that supposing there is given a name or even one [INDIST.] say you go on saying: “Elisabeth, Elisabeth, Elisabeth”. It is too ridicule enough, you see? It’s a [INDIST.], finished.
Now I am talking about the Queen of the world, Queen of the universe or say, King of the world, King of the universe and you say all: “Ram, Ram, Ram”. Is He your servant? Call Him what an [INDIST.] to call Him? You have not even entered into the Kingdom of God, you are just talking for this, sitting down here. Who will be coming from servant to that place. There could be a very light in the name Elisabeth. I can [INDIST.] Queen Elisabeth is not going to come running, unless and until if you are connected. If you call somebody there it’s a [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: recombination] of servants, if you go there, you [INDIST.], all right? But you are beyond that, maybe there is God. So you have no authority to call Him, but again I say [INDIST.SOUNDS LIKE: a Mantra has a meaning] it has no meaning.
All the Mantras have got a meaning, because [INDIST.] has a meaning. [INDIST.] But if there is no meaning it is evil, even [INDIST.] but they say nothing like you, no [INDIST.], nothing. In Sanskrit-language it is [INDIST.] very scientific, every [INDIST.] has a meaning. [INDIST.] without any mud, means [INDIST.]. Any name you take [INDIST.] has a meaning, every [INDIST.] has a meaning, everything has a meaning. It is never no meaning at all, that it has no meaning. Now he found out [INDIST.] has no meaning. At the most it [INDIST.] and the Kundalini rises, all right? [INDIST.] For example here it means [INDIST.] these are the sixteen and these are the sixteen petals there are, if you have any one of these spoiled, if you say with this [INDIST.] But why do you go to that? I think, even if it is later on [INDIST.], but what [INDIST.]