“You feel the blessings as nirvichara” Conversation with Yogis, Thursday, 2nd January 1979, Mumbai
…But if your attention is passing through the centre of the Agnya chakra you don’t see any light. But if it is not passing through that, then what happens [is], because your attention is outside, you see the light. Because it is enlightening also, you see. And you just see the light but the Kundalini is not passing through, just it’s stuck up there. And that’s why, because of that light, your eyes go on like that, you see.
People have seen even a complete flow of light moving up like that. But they have not felt the Realization. They saw it coming up to the Agnya and then the whole thing dropped back. They saw it! They saw the Kundalini how it was helping, [how] the Adi Kundalini was helping your Kundalini – they saw it.
Even this light rising is because of that. Because your attention is still outside, you see. So the flickering of the eyes starts. Then I tell you to fix up your eyes onto my finger. When you fix it up onto my finger and my face, what happens [is] the chaitanya pushes you, through your eyes, into the centre, so that you see me as I am. But the eyes are controlled by the chaitanya and the attention that is inside is pushed inside that, what you call the apparition, in the Agnya chakra.
So I always say that if you are flickering your eyes please pay attention to me so that the chaitanya works out through your eyes and fixes your attention to pass through. Because the light starts spreading on all the sides and you see that light and the eyes go on like that; you cannot close your eyes. That is the reason for that.
Then the second thing you said [is] that you are facing: your Sahasrara was on the thing. Yes, one of the reasons for nirvichara is that. But also nirvichara is a way to express the blessings of your Mother. When She wants to bless you. See, you wrote the letter [so] She was happy. Just to bless you, you became nirvichar. You see, it’s the blessing. That’s how you…that’s the grace that comes to you from your Mother, that you become nirvichar – that one has to recognise. If you do the things that I tell you, I feel I bless you very much, because they are for your good, for your kalyana (benevolence), for your mangal (auspiciousness) and that’s why you are blessed and that blessing you feel as nirvichara. Because I am Nirvichara myself.
Yes. Come along.
Douglas Fry: I’m Douglas Fry, one of the early Sahaja yogis from London. And what I would like to say is, it’s rather amazing the way that the forces of good and the forces of bad have nevertheless, pushed us towards Mataji. Now the person that introduced us to Mataji, as you have heard from Gavin, was a yoga ‘playboy’.
Shri Mataji: And who was that?
Douglas Fry: A yoga playboy. A guru or something.
Shri Mataji: Yes, he was, he was no doubt, and is still!
Douglas Fry: The reason he came to England…
Shri Mataji: …was to make some money out of yoga!
Douglas Fry: The reason he came to England was because he’d seen this particular fake guru with long hair that looked like a pop star (laughter). He told me, and I think he might have told some of the youngest of us, that this particular guru had said to him, “You should go to England.” So, obviously he came to England and started yoga classes. Now where the yoga classes started was the last place that you could teach yoga because it was very, very cold and we started in winter, and there was no heating on. But for some reason, the yoga classes still went on. Now, eventually, he met Mataji and tried his experiment on us. And we all felt coolness in the hands, we all got Realization.
Now, another thing that this yoga playboy had tried was Transcendental Meditation, I found out. Now, after us having got Realization, he tried to teach us meditation and the technique that he was trying to do was a technique used by TM. The TM people, they give you a mantra, they might make the mantra up themselves. Or sometimes they give you names that sounds a bit like Sanskrit. In fact, I heard one fellow who had a mantra that sounded like “key ring”. If you pronounce it strangely it can sort of sound a bit like Indian but that’s neither here nor there.
So this fellow was trying to use TM techniques to make us go into meditation. And he told us that we should concentrate on a word, a word that we think is nice. Now the particular word I used was ‘divine’.
Now we sat down there for about ten or fifteen minutes to meditate and I remember I felt an explosion that finished in my head. Now I did not know the time that it was so I said, “I felt that explosion in my head, what was it?” So he said, “Oh, I don’t think that was anything, you forget about it!”
Now, once again, I think perhaps, just for a split of a second, I had achieved thoughtless awareness and my Kundalini obviously had risen. Then, at a later date, once I was asleep, I actually saw my Kundalini rise. So my head was full of an intense white flame then it went down again and then it came up again. And then I heard a “ting” from the top of my head.
Shri Mataji: That’s not Kundalini, you see, this is the thing [to understand].
Douglas Fry: This I assume was the breaking of the brahmarandhra.
Shri Mataji: No, no.
Douglas Fry: This wasn’t.
Shri Mataji: It is not. It happens with so many people, you see, that is al the ida and pingala ??.
Douglas Fry: This is?
Shri Mataji: This is ida pingala
Douglas Fry: Oh, I see, pardon me.
Shri Mataji: The sympathetic. That works out and it looks like Kundalini. But you don’t get any vibrations in the hand or head. You know, some people get a big hole here, down below. Especially this Muktananda he does like that. And they get a feeling like that you know. You should never feel the Kundalini rising like an explosion in a block like that.
Douglas Fry: Oh, I see
Shri Mataji: Later on, after Realization, you may feel the slow movement. But normally in Realization you do not.
Douglas Fry: So, anyway, that’s all I want to say. Thank you very much.
Shri Mataji: What about Sahaj Yog?
Douglas Fry: Well, anyway, after all this experience – initially of course I was in quite a mess, I used to take drugs and drink as many of the Western people seem to do these days. And gradually I found, after being exposed to Mataji’s love and Mataji’s influence, I found that gradually my interest in drugs, my interest in drinking and smoking, it all dropped out and I gradually became more and more stable. And now, I found that life for me is very settled and…
Shri Mataji: …you can give Realization.
Douglas Fry: I find that I can give Realization to people and..
Shri Mataji: I can cure also
Douglas Fry: And yes, also I have to say I can cure people and the first time I gave Realization to somebody, I was quite amazed and, just to realize I could do such a thing. But now, to give Realization it’s still, you know, it still makes me feel very nice and clean inside, it’s just wonderful.
Shri Mataji: This kind of experience also many people get, like Shri Krishna also had like that and so many people get a feeling like that, that something goes up, suddenly shoots off, and you feel exploded and opened out and all that. But that is not the Kundalini. It is the sympathetic nervous system which is very much in strain. You see her strain.
And in that expression of that strain, what happens is that the whole thing, the energy of the complete sympathetic, whatever they have in the parasympathetic is sucked in, into the sympathetic. Because the sympathetic is too much activated. Then what happens, the parasympathetic system has your stored up energy whatever it is. So it just sucks in all that and when it is sucked in, suddenly, the wave from the pelvic plexus, down below starts. Because, all the energies are released to the sympathetic.
Because the sympathetic is so exhausted that whatever is the energy left in the chakras is released. Once it is released, all that released energy makes you feel that the energy is rising within you because it is rising through ida and pingala. Now this is the energy which is just sucked into ida and pingala. It rises up. And you can feel it going up and coming down and all that. But the after effects of this one is this, that such a person – of course in these experiences people feel sometimes a horrible thing also, that they feel that there’s a heat liberation, sometimes they feel some sort of a scorpion bites going on or some snakes coming up and all kind of things can happen in this. It can be very horrifying also, this one, and could be very simple also.
But when this happens, the after effect is like that, that you become arbitrary.
All this drugs system started after that, because once you are released from that self-control in between, you can take to anything like this, because you are free now to do whatever you please. And that’s how you can take to drugs and things.
And this is what all these gurus are doing, is to take out this stored energy which is controlling you, suck them out onto the sympathetic. There are so many ways by which they can do it: they can starve you, they can make you work very hard, they can make you tired, they can make you say some mantras, things. I mean they make your sympathetic work so hard that ultimately a stage is reached where your chakras release all the energy that is stored in them and just get out of it. So all this energy they will suck in and a person feels: “Oh, suddenly something has happened!”
But in these circumstances, you may have a big hollow in the head like that, as if, like a mad person has, here, a big hollow. And the whole thing is sucked in and you get a hollow there like that. So many people get this thing, that is a very different thing. But because all the energy that was inside is sucked in. So it has become like a big hollow inside, you see. Like a mad person has too, the same thing.
So this is the way people confuse between Kundalini awakening and the exhaustion of the sympathetic. Normally when the Kundalini is awakened through Sahaj Yoga, you do not feel anything. It just goes up and works out.
But sometimes, after Realization, if there is an obstruction due to certain combinations, it may be the obstruction may go out like that. But there’s a tremendous difference between the two.
That first, you release in the hands, of the vibrations, start with that. But with the first one you do not get [vibrations]. On the contrary, you get heated up and you start avoiding yourself, escaping from yourself. And this starts. And that’s how you get into these drugs.
This is very much played by the gurus. You see, that’s what they do to you. They exhaust you completely so that you cannot withstand reality and the present moment. And so you try to get into something. And once you try to escape it, the whole release of the stores and parasympathetic takes place and the Deities are broken and you are broken, you become arbitrary. It’s a cancerous sort of a thing. So that’s not Kundalini awakening but we would say, it is more a sympathetic system which comes into play and the movement of peristaltic, what you call that ‘pumping’. Peristaltic movements of the pumping up of the energy starts. They start putting it into the thing. And the whole thing is sucked in because of the exhaustion.
So one should not confuse between the two. Because after Realization you cannot take to drugs and things easily. It’s very difficult. You have to really force yourself to take to drugs.
Gregoire: Mother, you just answered now something that I never questioned because after I met I did not want to question it. I had, two years before meeting you, I had an extremely powerful experience of the same kind…
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