Mumbai (India)

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Conversation with Yogis, Thursday, January second, 1979, Mumbai

Shri Mataji: …But if your attention is passing through the centre of the Agnya charka you don’t see any light. But if it is not passing through that, then what happens? Because your attention is outside, you see the light. Because it is a lightning [unsure] on so you see, and you just see the light but not – the Kundalini is not passing through it just, it tackle there, and that’s why, because of that light, your eyes go on like that, you see?
People have seen even a complete flow of light moving up like that. But they have not felt the Realization, they saw it coming up to the Agnya and then the whole thing drop back. They saw it! You see, they saw the Kundalini out which was helping, the Adi Kundaini was helping your Kundalini, they saw it.
Even this light rising is because of that, because your attention is still outside, you see, so you go on, the twistening of the eyes start.
Then I tell you to fix up your eyes on to My finger. When you fix it upon to My finger and My face, what happens, the Chaitanya pushes you, through your eyes, into the centre, you see, so that you see Me as I am. But the eyes are controlled by the Chaitanya and the attention that is inside, you see, is pushed inside that, what you call, the apparition [unsure] in this Agnya chakra.
So I always say that if you are faltering your ayes please pay attention to Me so that the Chaitanya works out, through your eyes and fix up your attention to pass through, because the light starts spreading on all the sides and you see that light, you see, and your eyes go on like that, you cannot close your eyes. It is that, it’s the reason to that.

Then the second thing you said that you’re facing the- your Sahastrara was on the thing, yes one of the reason for nirvichara is that. But also nirvichara is a way to express the blessings of your Mother. When She wants to bless you, you see, you [inaudible] attention was happy, just to tell you, you became nirvichara. You see, it’s the blessing. That’s how you- that’s the Grace, you see, that comes to you from your Mother, that you become nirvicahra. That’s one has to [inaudible].
If you do the things that I tell you, I feel I bless you very much because they are for your good, for your kalyana [benevolence] for your mangul [sin? unsure] and that’s why you are blessed. And that blessing you feel as nirvichara. Because I am Nirvichara Myself.
Come along.
[Sahaja Yogi takes a mic]

Sahaja Yogi: I’m Douglas Fry, one of the early Sahaja yogis from London. What I would like to say is, it’s rather amazing the way that the Force [inaudible].. nevertheless, pushed us towards Mataji. Now the first person that introduced us to Mataji, as you have heard from Gavin, was a yoga playboy [unsure]. Now
Shri Mataji: And who was that?
Other Sahaja Yogi speaking at the same time: [inaudible]
[Shri Mataji is laughing].
Sahaja Yogi: A guru something.
Shri Mataji: Yes, he was, he was.
Sahaja Yogi: The reason he came to England
Shri Mataji: He wants to make some money out of you.
Sahaja Yogi: The reason he came to England was because he seemed this particular fright guru with long hair that looks like a pop star. He told me, and I think he might have told some of the youngest of us, that this particular guru had said to him that: “You should go to England”. So, obviously he came to England and stated yoga classes. Now where the yoga classes started was the last place you could take because it was very, very cold and we started it in winter and there was no heater there.
But for some reason, the yoga classes still went on. Now, eventually, he met Mataji and tried his experiments on us. And we all felt [inaudible]… Mataji, we all got our Realization.

Now another thing that this yoga playboy had tried was Transcendental Meditation I found out. Now, after us having got Realization, he tried to teach us meditation and the technique that he was trying to do was a technique used by TM. The TM [inaudible] they give you a mantra, they might make the mantra up themselves. Or sometimes they give you names that sounds to be a bit like Sanskrit. In fact, I heard one fellow who had a mantra that sounded like “Ki me” [Laughter]
If you pronounce it, like it sort of sounds .. a bit like Indian but that’s not ..
So this fellow was trying to teach us TM techniques to make us go into meditation. And he told us: “You should concentrate on a word”, a word that we think is nice. Now the particular word … they’re divine.
Now we sat down there for about ten or fifteen minutes to meditate and I remember I saw an explosion that finished in my head. Now I did not know the time that it was so I said “I felt that explosion in my head, what was it?” So he said: “Oh, I don’t think that was anything, you forget about it now”
Once again, I think perhaps, just for a split of a second, I had achieved thoughtless awareness and my Kundalini obviously had risen. Then, at a later date, once I was asleep, I actually saw my Kundalini rising and in my head it was full with an intense white flame then it went down again and then it came up again. And then I heard a “Ting” on the top of my head.
Shri Mataji: That is a –that’s not Kundalini. This is a peak [?].
Sahaja Yogi: This I assume was the breaking of the brahmarandhra.
Shri Mataji: No, no.
Sahaja Yogi: This wasn’t.
Shri Mataji: It is not. It happens with so many people, you see, that is al the ida and pingala [inaudible].
Sahaja Yogi: This is?
Shri Mataji: This is ida pingala
Sahaja Yogi: Oh, I see, pardon me.
Shri Mataji: The sympathetic that works out and it looks like Kundalini you see. But you don’t get any vibrations in the hand and it looks- even some people get a big hole right down below. Especially this Muktananda he does like that and they get a feeling of cold [unsure]. You should never feel the Kundalini rising like that, like an explosion going up like that.
Sahaja Yogi: Oh, I see
Shri Mataji: Later one, after Realization may be in the stomach [unsure]. Normally, in Realization you do not.
Sahaja Yogi: So anyway, that’s all I want to say. Thank you very much. Anyway, after all the experience, I – initially of course I was in quite a mess, I used to take drugs ….Western people seem to do these days and eventually I found, after being exposed to Mataji’s love and Mataji’s influence, I found that gradually my interest in drugs, my interest in drinking and smoking it all drop out and I gradually became more and more stable. And now, I found that life for me is very suitable [unsure] and
Shri Mataji: You can give Realization.
Sahaja Yogi: I found I can give Realization to people and
Shri Mataji: “I can cure also”.
Sahaja Yogi: And yes, also I’ve to say I can cure people and I found it- the first time I gave Realization to somebody, I was quite amazed and- just to realize I could do such a thing.
But now, to give Realization is still, you know, it still makes me feel very nice and clean inside, it’s just wonderful.

Shri Mataji: Congratulations! This kind of experience also many people get, like Shri Krishna also had like that and so many people get a feeling like that.
That something goes and suddenly it shoots off and you feel exploded and opened out and all that. But that is not the Kundalini. It is the sympathetic nervous system which is very much in strain, you see, there are strain. In that expression of that strain, what happens, that the whole thing, the energy of the complete sympathetic, whatever the into [inaudible] because the sympathetic is too much activated, you see? And what happens, the parasympathetic system has restored up energy whatever it is. So it just sucks in all that and when it is sucked in, suddenly, the waves from the pelvic plexus, down below starts. Because, you see, all the energies are released to the sympathetic because the sympathetic is so exhausted that whatever is the energy left in the charkas is released. Once it is released, you see, all the released energy, you see, makes you feel that the energy is rising within you because it is rising to ida and pingala. Now this is the energy which is just sucked in ida and pingala, it rises up, and you can feel it going up and coming down and all that. But the after-effects of this one is this, that such a person- of course in these experiences people feel sometimes horrible things also that they feel that there’s a heat liberation, sometimes they feel some sort of a scorpion bites going on or some snake coming up and all kind of things can happen in this; it can be very horrifying also this one. And could be very simple also.
But when this happens, after-effects is like that, that you become arbitrary. You see, sort of all this drug system started after that, because once you are really from that self control in between, you see, you can take to anything like this, because you are free now to do whatever you please, you see. And that’s how you can take to drugs [inaudible]. And this is what all these gurus are doing, is to take out this store energy which is controlling you, sort them out onto the sympathetic. There are so many ways by which they can do it. They can starve you, they can make you work very hard, they can make you tired, they can make you say some mantra thing, I mean they make your sympathetic work so hard that ultimately a stage is reached where your charkas release all the energies that is restored in them and just get out of it you see. So all this energy they will suck in and a person feels: “Oh, suddenly something has opened.”
But in these circumstances, you see, you can, may have a big hole in the head like that, like a mad person has you see, here a big hole. And the whole thing is sucked in and you get a hollow there like that, so many get it here that is a very different way because all the energy that was inside is sucked in. So it has become like a big hollow inside, you see, like a mad person has too the same thing.
So this is the way people confuse between Kundalini awakening and the exhaustion of the sympathetic. Normally the Kundalini awakened through Sahaja Yoga, you do not feel anything. It just goes up and works out.
But sometimes, after Realization, if there is an obstruction due to certain combinations, it may be the obstruction may go out like that. But there is a tremendous difference between the two.
Sahaja Yogi: Ah, ah.
Shri Mataji: That first, the release in the hand of the vibrations start with that. But with the first one you do not get [vibrations]. On the contrary, you get heated up and you start avoiding yourself, escaping from yourself. And this starts and that’s how you get into these drugs. This is very much played by the gurus, you see, that’s what they do to you. They exhaust you completely so that you cannot stand reality and the present moment. And so you try to get into something. And once you try to escape it, you see, you just evolve, release the stores and parasympathetic takes place and the Deities are broken and you are broken, you become arbitrary. It’s a cancer, a sort of a thing. So that’s not Kundalini awakening but we would say, it is more sympathetic system which comes into play and the movement of peristaltic -what you call that pumping
Sahaja Yogi: Peristaltic pump
Shri Mataji: Peristaltic movement of the pumping up of the energy starts, you see, they start putting you [unsure] to the thing. The whole thing is sucked in because of the exhaustion.
So one should not confuse between the two because after Realization you cannot take to drugs and things easily, it’s very difficult. You have to really force yourself to take to drugs.
Gregoire: Mother, you just answered now something that I never questioned because after I met I did not want to question anymore. I had, two years before meeting you, I had an extremely powerful experience of the same kind.
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