BBC Interview. London, England. 17 March 1980.
Interviewer: I would like to welcome everybody particularly I want to have word before we do start the afternoon interview with some of the [inaudible] and have different opinions about some of my public programs for people that I interview who have different points of view from the main stream of a Christian thinking of radio 74. there those of you have written to me and said, I do not like anything that is not oh, let’s say it loose terms born again Christianity and I don’t think Christian station or anyone the call itself Christian should have any other kind of ideas there, others of you who right into say I understand that you have to be tolerate it because you’re the only English language station and it would get pretty rough for you if you want tolerate and so therefore I accept this is some kind of a grudging conversation to keep out another point of view then I have a high value very much. I have had several business man who said me, I cannot stand religious program and I never listen to such and they turn me off completely except on the ones that you run because you never trying so many thing. You always say, listen a few point of view or had how do you like this? How does this strike you? Or would you believe this? or you just be said listen something beautiful and they say therefore I really enjoy for the first time listening to the various people point of view about god, about heaven, about nature of man and about why were all gathered you together on this earth? What were working toward? And why? How? who? And could it be any better. So today those of you who truly dislike hearing anything about, those eternal questions that does not confined itself to your own Spector of believe. I sincerely and with great love invite you to turn off your radio and go out, walking the gardener, look at the clouds or do something else make a cake to give it to somebody in beautiful gesture, but this is not your place because today We have would about someone who might be eager to hear, I feel that I going to learn many many things, but I have never before a woman whose name is Shri Mataji
Shri Mataji: Mataji Nirmala Devi it’s my full name.
Interviewer: Shri Mataji and she has had some purpose of the Geneva before which would rather controversial but she did not it like and didn’t not want and I think that, I’ll be speaking which is just a little Hyde Park a corner here in this lovely corner of the old tough one. There should be a privilege to listen to someone who has a message that we can decide very quietly wouldn’t ourselves with love and with reflection and without activity. Whether we find something (inaudible). I feel a live today this so we are on the tape so that you won’t try and call in today it would not be possible will have an open time of day and you will then be able to call in if you have something to say, but could you join me now in a very cordial in a very easy special welcome to Shri Mataji. A great Welcome to you.
Shri Mataji: Thank you so much
Interviewer: In the country of India I know that there is much talk the word enlightenment is used in a way that perhaps we of this world don’t completely understand, with that we please to start that your talk to a little bit about enlightenment and going to your speech.
Shri Mataji: Yes, India has a special advantage over other countries. As far as the nature is concert because the nature of our country such a that people don’t have to worry so much of combating the nature. It’s a warm country and it has a very fertile country and it doesn’t required too much for you to existing that place because even exist under tree. It can lead a very very simple life in India and you need not have all the elaboration we need here to fight the nature. As a result of time many people who were quite satisfied with their maintain life took to deeper seeking. Thousands of years back that country where they wanted to find out the secret of life. Everyone to know why we are on this earth and why we are existing like that? Is there any greater purpose of being here?
And such a people having able to discover something very great and that what they called as an enlightenment that we have to have. But I would say it not only that the Christian have talk about it. Indians have talked, Christians have talked then Islamic religion has talked, of course Mojesh talk, everybody talk about it that you have to become a spirit.
Interviewer: Did you have to become the spirit?
Shri Mataji: You to be born again of the spirit.
Interviewer: Of the spirit, and this is a common trend through all religions.
Shri Mataji: But, difference between the Indian life and the western life is basically what? And that is, that we believe that all our efforts should be that to be a spirit in India. And outside it is not so, that all of the effort should be that is not so. Secondly there is one more point which is very very subtle and if you understand little that in India religion is not organized, so that it is not brought to the artificial level, if you have to become spirit then it has to be a living process, by the living force of a revolution. So you cannot just brand somebody, you cannot say that you are that. If this is the problem, why here the people can become Christen without getting the proper experience so being Christen or they can be Muslim without become a really the Muslim. The really to become something is a happening with in us which comes through evolutionary process of a living process of a living body which everybody has talked out. Now why the people have organized religion here? this can’t be explained. Because they are organizing everything in the West perhaps I’m also organizing god. But in India they understand that you cannot organized it. It’s happening that’s we have to have and because thousands of years back people have been looking into it. So they know what to except? When you are enlightened. What happens to you? what happens to your consciousness? They know that your consciousness has to change that you have to be at a higher consciousness and that is called as “Samuhik chetana” means collective consciousness.
Interviewer: And that can be universal? Good collective consciousness has universal.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that you become a part of whole universe, it become in sense of that you have become consciousness in your central nervous system, and you can feel the other person. For example supposing I can feel you, I can feel your center, then you are not other, you are me, Then there is no other. This is happening which is reality, which is not just a position nor a mental projection or an organization.
Interviewer: Is this is an any way the equipment like a Christen and this one mind in the universe?
Shri Mataji: Of course the same, of course the same. In India Christ is a respected as a Mahavishnu. It describes thousands of year back. Even before he came to this earth his described there. But you see people never connected. In India Christ with Mahavishnu because the image we got of Christ was very funny.
Interviewer: How was that?
Shri Mataji: First of all image we got that we can get converted that is absurd for us. Because how we can get convert it. See by branding to somebody how you can become better?
Interviewer: How you become better?
Shri Mataji: Just you brand somebody. Supposing I said, I am the governor, where become governor? You see becoming part is missing, so we couldn’t understand what sort of Christ “ishamashi” who just send the people just to brand us something like a Christian. And the secondly reason, the another image we had about Christ was that he is the one who talks of the spirit and nothing else. So the people who have to do the work of Christ have to give enlightenment. They are to be enlightened people.
Interviewer: And this enlightenment is truly becoming one with the whole, with the whole. That is just have anything to do with what I understand is your bhavana (emotions) or eventually rising so higher consciousness that you become a blend like a drop of water with blend into the ocean.
Shri Mataji: Yes. It is the same thing.
Interviewer: So you eventually would loose to individuality.
Shri Mataji: No, not an individuality, but it is like (you see) the tree if you see every leaf is different.
Shri Mataji: But it is supplied by same source. If the leaf become consious of the source, it doesn’t leave its identity, but it’s consciousness of the source and it nourish by the source.
Interviewer: And then being conscious of the source and putting your…
Shri Mataji: if being enlightened
Interviewer: conscious of source being enlightened.
Shri Mataji: Yeah. On the central nervous system. Conscious doesn’t mean mental. On the central nervous system you should feel the force flowing through your fingers.
Interviewer: That’s an equipment to something in Christianity person that you say, I feel today and I’m develop in grace.
Shri Mataji: Yes, but it is not today. Once you have it. But it’s not today. In Christianity, Christianity is nothing but enlightenment. True Christianity, again I’m said true Christianity. This is true which I am talking about where you actually see the rising of the force from sacrum bone with your naked eyes which pulses through reaches your fontanel bone area at top of your head and give you (inaudible) so that you can feel cool breeze of Holy Ghost coming out of your head. Actually you see that.
Interviewer: How do you feel that? How does it happens?
Shri Mataji: It happens spontaneously. It has to be living process. How this living thing happened? Supposing you ask me a question, how does a seed sprout? What will I say, you put it into mother earth. I will tell you the history about consciousness if you followed, that first of all, you see it was masculine development of the consciousness like extrusion. Like tree growing too much sort of thing and all this thing have developed so much have gone to an extent now that it has to stop. Now what is second part? Now as you see in world there is famine consciousness coming into play. Of course in wrong way may be like a pendulum, it is a rebellion. They are going to rebellion which is nonsense, you see and may be that as they are acting just like a men and thinking that they are sort of achieving something raise in consciousness is wrong. But you have to do consciousness always move spirally higher whenever you become a from one to another, you are born at a higher consciousness. So this is rebellion. I’m talking of revaluation that has taken place. Now this revaluation only take place, when this must be development which achieve with nourishment from the faminent part. see from the womb, from the mother earth, you see so far we exploding the mother earth, creating all kinds of problems someone they have done it. Now they have to take next step, and this is the time where the force that I am telling you which is called as “Kundlini”. It represents the womb, the represent the famine personality which rises. Is called as also “kumbha” which you called aquerius. It represents the aqueri and that’s why this is the ease of the aqueris. Where this Kundalini rises and she gives the realization. First, human being have developed up to this stage as you are and then this Kundalini had to rise. So the time has come. The blossom time has come all this describe in Bible also.
Interviewer: How? , Where?
Shri Mataji: of course, that will say comforter will come. Christ talk about future. He didn’t say that stop the everything now, comforter has to come (inaudible) and counselor has to come. Then he has also talk, John has said that, he has seen, vision and all those things are there. So Now, what comforter has to do? What are the quantities of the womb in comforter?
Interviewer: So you feel that the opening of this consciousness is now coming at the end of the age of the flesh and going into the Age of Aquarius that everything will change.
Shri Mataji: Of course, that is what it is. And it has to change. Because what happens when you become collectively consigns. I mean it’s a thing now you have become human being. So now you become human being your consciousness is a different from that of animal. For example, animal if you put near dirty lake, he can pass through it but human being cannot. Because he has an another consciousness. Now this consciousness is so much higher that you become collectively consciousness about which you has to talk to lord about collectively. And this is what actual happening. Actualization that you should experience. And this is the difference between the western organized religion and eastern an organized. Where individuals have to find something for betterment of the whole.
Interviewer: But I understand that there are temples in India to Various built or different state of consciousness. And so how is that not organized?
Shri Mataji: You see, that is not organized. This are built by people around the jester, the village people just organized one temple and have it there and they have their own thesis, no problem at all.