Public Program, There is Some Meaning

Chiswick, London (England)

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Public program in Chiswick, London (England), 23 August 1980.


First of all I must apologize for being late, has been kind of … and I was really enjoying their happiness. [UNCLEAR] has told you in short what happens after Self Realization, on which the Spirit grows an understanding. Because I think – the trapped people – people have been told on a gross state where their attention is. If you suddenly start talking about the spiritual life, the stars emitting, you can just get trapped and this is something that can go beyond that so much. Open your heart. But when I am talking to you, you have to know that whatever I am saying is not to be an [UNCLEAR accepted truth?]. It’s not to be. Nor is it necessary for you to be [UNCLEAR rigid?]. I am here to prove all that is said about God, about beauty, about Spirit – that’s your Atma – and also to quick fix yourself. This is my job. When Kabir was telling you about this I was looking at your faces and I was wondering, first is God and if such a fantastic [UNCLEAR] could be living in us and people might say that “how can it be?”. But let us think about the great Universal Being, how human beings are created, how we are seeking God. There must be something about it. And even if it starts [UNCLEAR to protest] we should say “why not?”. If you could sit with that kind of a relaxed attitude it will work fine. Because [UNCLEAR] that we cannot believe that we deserve it [UNCLEAR]

How many years it has taken? Thousands and thousands of years from matter state you have come into human state. And how many seekings you must have had in your previous lives? Perhaps we take everything for granted. Even to see that we have become human beings is in itself miraculous. You did not do anything to be a human being, you see. We just take our human life for granted, absolutely. And that’s why you do not understand that even our Realization has to be taken for granted. It has to work out. Because if God has created you, it says some meaning about it. If there is some meaning what others have said it to you, you see, He has to do this for you so that you know the power which has created you. So that you know who you are. So that you know what is your fulfillment. So that you know what your roots are. If nature is anxious to do that – one should understand very carefully, put your attention to this point – that God has really created us out of something that was dead. As we are living people, we are human beings and we are seeking. What are we seeking? What do we expect to seek?


start seeking ourselves. Where does the Self lie? And how do we know about it? It is said in the Bible that you are to be born again. All the churches have baptism. Whatever may be the style of church it may be, I don’t know if the Spiritualist churches have the baptism or not. But all the churches have baptism. Whatever may be the outside problem or whatever may be the differences in the outside, everybody talks of that rebirth. Hindus talk of rebirth, Muslims talk of rebirth, everyone talks that you are to be reborn. The only mistake perhaps human beings have made is that this rebirth cannot be brought forth by the effort of human beings. Human beings have not done any effort whatsoever. They have not done any effort to become human beings. So they cannot do any more efforts to become higher. Like a seed sprouts by itself, this living process will happen spontaneously. It’s rather difficult for human beings to understand but just think how did you take your birth, what effort did you put in. Your mother did all the job for you, she took all the pains upon herself and you were born. If you are to be reborn, also you cannot put in any effort. But specially in the West where it is more ego-oriented attitude towards things, they cannot believe it that it will be done effortlessly. It’s a fact. We got everything effortlessly and it’s God’s grace which is going to work it out effortlessly. 

Now when I tell you about our being as it exists within us, then we have to see– [Mother talking about the child] If you remove his traps then he’ll be alright, give him freedom all right? You shouldn’t tie them up, they are here for enjoying their freedom all right? Good. Let him go to play. Good, just push that out, the chair.

Here in this picture you can see we have drawn out the inner being very clearly. Now when I am telling you about it, you don’t have to believe. As I told it’s an hypothesis I’m putting forward. If it works out then naturally you will believe me, I know that. After enlightenment you have to believe, not before that because I will be telling you a story and blind faith is of no use for Sahaja Yoga. But that doesn’t mean by any chance that you should keep yourself bound by a certain XYZ book you read five years back. But keep yourself absolutely open and vacant to understand how you exist within yourself. The knowledge that we have about outside world is through our understanding, which comes to us by our organs of perception. But these organs of perception are not perfect, nor they’re enlightened enough to give us a clear-cut idea about anything whatsoever.

These different centres that we have in our being exist in this final spot, till they go here to the sixth centre where you see this red mark on my head. In the centre of the pituitary and the pineal body, crossing of the optic nerve. That’s the sixth centre and the seventh centre is the limbic area in your brain. Now there are seven centres as I have told you. The first one is the centre of Mooladhara which emits innocence in you. Innocence is the first thing that was created in this universe. And this innocence is embodied in a human being as a child and that portion is responsible for looking after you as a child in the mother’s womb. The other day I was listening to the BBC and they said that we do not know how a foreign thing in the body is so well retained in the womb. Because a donkey gave birth to a horse and a horse gave birth to a donkey, and they could not explain it. Now this I have said it many a times before that medical sciences cannot explain many things. One of them is this that how is it a foreign thing inside the body is not only retained but is looked after, is nourished and is expelled from the body at the right time. This in the centre which has a deity which decides what is to be retained and what is not to be retained. Then there is another thing, like acetylcholine and adrenaline. The doctors would say that the action of these two chemicals in the human body – to augment or to relax – is so arbitrary that you cannot decide what is the cause of it. So they say the mode of action of these chemicals in the human body cannot be explained. It’s very frank and honest, isn’t it? These centres act in a manner that is arbitrary. They take a decision on their own and if you ask the doctors about them they may say that we cannot explain why different plexuses emit different kinds of stimuli, and why a certain action takes place when in the nature of a particular stimuli it is just the opposite. This they can explain that this is autonomous nervous system. It is a system which is controlled by auto but if you ask them who’s this auto– You say it’s a automobile, so there’s a driver sitting down there, isn’t it? Automobile doesn’t move by itself, there has to be a driver to drive an automobile. Anything where, you say an autocrat, there has to be some auto – somebody who controls. So in a way they accept that there is someone within us who controls these centres or these plexuses and the whole system of sympathetic and parasympathetic is controlled by somebody who is sitting somewhere there, who is doing the job. It’s a kind of a confession they make but they just brand it like that. You see, it’s autonomous nervous system – finished. They cannot go beyond it so they just brand it. But who does the job? We have to go a little deeper into it and find out who does the job. 

The one who does the job is the one we do not know. Neither we can control it or manoeuvre it because the one who does the job doesn’t come into our conscious behaviour, into our conscious mind, or in today what you call the central nervous system. Now the one who we have to know is the Self and this powerful controlling entity lives in our heart, as I think, but whether it lives or not we can verify it later. Because we have not known that “auto” we are seeking. We get a glimpse of it sometimes and we feel oh no, this is not the end of life, we have not found out our fulfillment. We have not yet found out what we are. We have to find out our meaning so we go here and there. We enter into all kinds of nonsensical things sometimes. Even we may take to drugs, we may take to some gurus, or take to this and that, all sorts of things that may not lead you to the proper place. This is the problem of today. Sahaja Yoga is meant for real ardent people. It doesn’t matter if you have money or not, it doesn’t matter if you’re poor or rich, it doesn’t matter whatever race you come from. These things have no bearing on your Realization. The only thing that triggers it is how far are you seeking. Are you truthful about it or are you seeking the fulfillment of your ego or your super ego? If you want to do something because you like it then you have not yet understood the point because you have not yet known it, so how will you decide whether you like it or not? For example if I have never seen the cake, I have never tasted it, I don’t know what are the ingredients, how am I to say whether I like it or not? Who is “I” that is saying all this, that “I” like it, “I” didn’t like it, “I” don’t think it was correct, “I” don’t think it was all right? Who says these things? Is it your Self saying it? No because yet it is not manifesting. So who is saying this “I” is Mister E-G-O. So one has to know that it is beyond your ego. It is beyond your super-ego – is the conditioning. Now this all has been said before. This is nothing new that I am saying to you. Only all these sayings of the people has helped me to prepare proper grounds for you to understand what to expect.

[Mother talking to yogi] What’s the matter with the child? Will you– I think you better take him out because it disturbs the others. I’m alright but others’ concentration is disturbed. 

Now what should we expect when we say about Self Realization? What does that mean? What should happen to us when we think of Self Realization? The first thing that should happen to us is that our awareness must become collectively conscious. We are individually conscious. For example I see a lady, I will say “oh she’s a nice lady, I like her. Her dress was good, her bearing was good, her manners were good.” Or we can say, “she was otherwise.” But this is your own understanding of the person at a very limited level. At that level it’s only your ego telling you or maybe your conditioning, supposing your mother had blue eyes, so you may say that this blue-eyed lady is very nice. Somehow you feel very happy with that. Nothing more than that. Maybe some sort of a conditioning in you that draws you to that person but absolutely you cannot say why you like such a person or why you don’t like that person. Why you like a particular face and why you don’t like another. So the first thing that should happen to you that you jump into your own, you jump into it. You become. It’s not lecturing, it’s not just brainwashing, but you become collectively conscious.

Jung has said that if Self Realization takes place, it should work out into the breakthrough, into the unconscious – means an unconscious which is all-pervading. According to him, it was an All-Pervading Power. We source symbols in our dreams and expresses through symbols within us, through numbers and things like that. He has an extensive work on the unconscious and thanks to him now I can give you the meaning of what he was saying and it helps me a lot. He himself was a Realized Soul and what he said was that if you get Self Realized, the unconscious becomes conscious. The unconscious which we see sometimes in our dreams, maybe through our behaviour, becomes conscious within. Now what are we conscious about? Say we are conscious about the heat of this, all right? We can feel the heat of the flame. We can feel the cold of the item. This is in our conscious knowledge. This is our subjective knowledge that we can feel the fragrance of the flowers. It is our knowledge to see the aesthetics or we can say these colours of flowers. Animals do not see the aesthetics, they do not know cleanliness. Human beings have achieved a lot in their awareness but still I would say they live in complete ignorance because the light is not there and there’s a big confusion in their minds. Now actually what should happen to us is this: that in our awareness, when we are collectively conscious, we should feel the heat of others, the cold of others, the centres of others, the problems of others. We should feel them within us. We do not really feel them within us. For example this problem in Cambodia the other day, I was sitting with a lady and was to be a very big person but she was looking absolutely miserable. So I said, “why, what’s the matter with you? Why are you so miserable?” She said, “you know, I’m very much feeling guilty about Cambodia.” Now what’s the use of you feeling the guilt about it, I can’t understand. I said, if you cannot do anything about it, no use feeling guilty. You can feel sorry and do something about it in a sensible way, but you sit down and weep and cry feeling guilty about Cambodian people. How are you going to help them? I mean, it’s absolutely absurd. And you being miserable is not going to help. Now the problem of another person, whatever you feel for them is not a knowledge from within but is a knowledge of objectivity in the sense that whatever you think about the problem is the problem. Like, you see somebody in pain. The body is giving a pain and you do not feel that pain at all but you feel that “oh this person is having a pain and something mundane about it.” But when you are collectively conscious then you also record a little pain within you, not much but you will. A person who is suffering from livers, for example, goes to a doctor. He has to screen him, he has to take out his all food and starve for three days, take a barium meal, and that meal, and that meal, and go on for 15 days. And by the time he comes out, oh nothing wrong. But in Sahaja Yoga, even if the beginning of the disease has started you can immediately feel it and you say “ah, there’s a liver.” The other fellow might not know, saying “I don’t have any liver”. But that’s not a fact because when he says he doesn’t have a liver he doesn’t know. Supposing he gets his Realization, he’ll come and tell me “Mother, my liver…” In a very gross way you will know and you’ll be amazed how you know it. It’s something so surprising. As you feel the heat of this flame, you start feeling the heat of your organs within yourself on your fingers. You start feeling others on your fingertips. You see it’s a very good – always a phrase used, “it’s on your fingertips”. You immediately know if a person has started getting into cancer. You do not have to go to a doctor. Immediately you know the person has started getting into cancer. And then you should know also that once this connection with the divine is established – like this connection is established – you start manifesting yourself in such a wonderful way that you start curing cancer of others. Yours also is cured as a by-product and you start curing others. It just flows, it emits, it just flows like that.

This lady asked me, “What do you think about yourself?” I said, “I think I’m like a flower – a fragrance – I’m just enjoying the fragrance.” That’s all. It is just like your fragrance manifesting, curing others, soothing others, loving others, solving and molding the problems in such a way that the whole thing becomes beautiful. The whole creation is going to be corrected through human beings but not by United Nations or not by any such organization, or any temples, or churches, or mosques. But by people who are enlightened. As if the connection is established and they are emitting through them the Divine Power, which is All-Pervading. If I say that this Divine Power is the one that’s the reality, the rest of it is all an illusion. To Me, it is. And this Divine Power is the power of love which just flows and emits itself. It manifests itself. It loves and it coordinates this dynamic. But because you’ve not yet felt it, what’s this of doubting about it? Once it starts flowing through you you’ll be amazed how powerful you are. This is what is your baptism where you become aware of the absolute within you, not the way you are aware in a confusion. As an absolute thing, you get an absolute value of authority. For example if there are ten children who are Realized Souls, you tie up their eyes and ask them, “Where’s the problem of this gentleman?” They will all raise one finger, all of them – here it’s burning – means the person has a problem his throat. This means that. I went to Stonehenge the other day and I was amazed what stories people have created out of that. This is a thing which is vibrating, has come out of Mother Earth which is described in the Bible. If you see in the Commandments, that anything that is created by the Mother Earth or by the sky is not to be reproduced and worshipped. That means there is something created out of the Mother Earth, one of them is your Stonehenge. But the people who were not sensitive to it cut them out, made round circles and things like that. It’s such a symbolic thing – only a person who’s Realized – all those who were Realized could feel the vibrations. Could feel that this is a great thing that the Mother Earth bestowed upon this great country of England 5,000 years back. And then today you are born in this country and that kind of a thing is looking after you. But when I say all these things [it] can be Greek and Latin for all of you – and should be. But when you will get your connection, the manifestation will be like a TV set that you bring in and you don’t know if anything is on. And suddenly to a villager if you open the TV– “oh, how do you get it?” But the Self is made, you are made very carefully to know yourself.

There is this Power in the triangular bone called as sacrum – sacrum means sacred bone. Imagine the Greeks called it sacred, so they knew that something that sacredness was about this bone. And also doctors know that when the whole body burns, this bone doesn’t burn out. The Kundalini exists in that bone. This is the power which is placed there, like a [UNCLEAR premuel?] in a seed– [Mother asking yogi] how do you say [UNCLEAR premuel?] in a general word in English?– we can say a germinating power of a seed. It is placed within you and when it is awakened it rises, passes through all the centres, enriches them, goes up and opens your fontanel bone area. It actually does, you can see with your own eyes. Naked eyes, you can see this many people, those who are Realized Souls all have seen thousands like that. You can see the pulsation of the Kundalini at the triangular bone higher and wherever you have the problem you find the Kundalini moving. Till you find here on the head, you find it pulsates and when the pulsation stops, then the grace starts coming on you and you feel absolutely calm as if the myth has dropped out. As if the drama is over, as if you have become the witness and from your hands the cool breeze starts flowing. It is described in the Bible that the cool breeze is the Holy Ghost. And of course, Shankaracharya has described it as Chaitanya Lahari, as Saundarya Lahari, and all these things in such a voluminous books that some times it’s most surprising at how a learned man like him, a great pandit, a great knowledgeable person should come to this and just describe Kundalini. I’m the Mother that is there to give you Realization. He said that you try anything else, it’s not going to work out. It’s the grace of the Mother only. When the grace of the Mother works then only through the Mother’s awakening – this Kundalini – that you get your Realization. Now this Kundalini is an individual thing for each and every person. And She’s your Mother, waiting for this great occasion of your Realization. Just waiting! Of course some times through our ignorance we have really ruined ourselves. I have seen people having very bad Kundalini. With the kind of Kundalini they must have been very tortured and weeping. And there are people who have really tormented themselves, no doubt, but you can soothe Her. You can love Her, caress Her and gradually bring Her up. If She is tired, if She is very unhappy, you can bring that joy up. Once you get your Realization you become– first of all, before the Realization, when the Kundalini crosses over this point which is called as Agnya Chakra, you become thoughtlessly aware. You are aware but there is no thought. You jump into that part of your mind where the thought that was previous doesn’t exist and the thought that is going to appear of the future doesn’t come in. And you are in the centre there, in thoughtless awareness, and the silence is established as soon as the Kundalini comes across. But most surprising I am seeing that people with ego have a big Agnya [catch]; the Kundalini just stops there and goes.

It’s very nice to see people getting Realization, no doubt. I mean, it’s the greatest joy for Me to see people evolve. It’s beautiful and the whole face and everything changing, people transforming themselves completely. All the priorities change and a person becomes absolutely peaceful and happy. As a by-product, as Cohen has told you, your diseases gets cured. As a by-product. All your diseases get cured and you feel perfectly alright. This kind of [laughter] happening explains– what makes Me laugh is that if you had paid for the program you would have gone through it. I tell you, the human beings as they are, really– Even if you bring in a plate, they don’t just want it. But when they get sick then they come to me, “Mother get us cured”. That’s all. That’s the only interest. What’s the use of curing these bodies who do not want God within them? Just think of it. There is no self-esteem in a human being. There’s no self-esteem, he doesn’t understand what is his value. Why is he on Earth? Is he here just to roam about and waste his life and die like an animal? Or there is something, a purpose within him? He doesn’t recognize it. Just now, on the way I was telling him that I don’t know about Chiswick because we have had 30 people last time, on whom I worked very hard, and none of them turned up. I said, I don’t know what type of people live in Chiswick. I really told– just now, while coming with him I said that I don’t know if they have any self-esteem. I don’t know why. So far I have not met people who have self-esteem, who want to have it, but because Patricia said I said all right I’ll come along. Let’s see today what happens but I have to tell you again and again, whether you belong to Chiswick or anything, you are human beings and you are created by God in a flower. And He loves you very much. He is anxious to do this for you, no doubt. But He is not going to fall at your feet that, “Please take your Realization”. You have to get it. You have to not only get it but you have to establish it and there is a protocol about it. If you go there like a BBC interviewer, say Robin Day style, he said “all right, thank you very much”. The attention immediately receives from that point. One has to understand that the time has come for the Last Judgment. This is the Last Judgment. Only the Kundalini Awakening is the way you are going to be judged, there’s no other way. How God is going to judge you? Just tell me. Only way is by giving you awakening. I’ve seen how it works out.

[Mother inquiring] This gentleman wants to come in or go out? 

This is the problem, we have people and people and people. But we do need people who have lot of self-esteem and they are real people, they are ardent seekers and they want it. Sahaja Yoga is not based on anything which is a showmanship or anything superficial. It’s a deep thing. If you have that depth then only you will appreciate it. If you do not have, you will not. It’s not a shock. It’s the deeper urge within us which will work it out and if you do not have that deeper urge, it will not work out. But despite all this I must say, in this England we have lots and lots of people who are absolutely deep. They are just to be triggered. Like in Brighton of all the places, just think of it. I went to Switzerland– I was surprised that in Switzerland within 3-4 days we collected 200 Sahaja Yogis who were the first ones. It’s most surprising how we got it. In India we had a lady about 80 years old. 80 year old lady, very well-read and she’s a MA in sciences and mathematics all sorts of things, and she’s got her Realization. Her sister was here. She came and told me, “We are amazed how my mother has transformed. All her priorities have changed, she’s become such a beautiful person and such a delightful person. All the time she’s smiling and such happenings. Otherwise she used to bother about every small thing. The carpet is alright or not, or this needs some cleaning, and this and that. All sorts of petty things would enter into her mind to trouble everyone in the house. But her priority has so much changed and she has become so beautiful. We are all enjoying her company.”


getting your Realization. He said “yes, but do you think I have that power?” I said everybody has, you have to just come and get it. It’s a very, very simple thing. Everything that is [UNCLEAR white?] and simple. When we have to read we don’t go to books or to libraries, do we? Which is free [laughter]. In the same way, it’s such a simple thing that it works in everyone. But when it works also people take it for granted. I’ve known some people from [UNCLEAR Chiswick?] who came to me who got Realization. They didn’t follow it up and then later on they came to that, “Mother I lost my vibrations”. I said, “In the beginning when the seed is a sapling you have to look after it”. Because if you were that all right, if your Kundalini was perfect, if you had no problems on your chakras you would have been there. But that’s not the thing because that atmosphere is so bad, the whole society is so funny, the whole concept about life is so disturbing. It’s such a matter mad rush, it’s such a rat race, then you do get harmed. You get definitely sick and that’s why it is necessary that all these things have to be corrected before you are established. Those who go with that ardent feeling are the ones who achieve and establish themselves and find their fulfillment – the meaning why they are here. That’s how they become one with the whole because they become collectively conscience. They become conscious of the collectivity that we have. There’s no lecturing that “you’re my brother, you’re my sister, there should be no racialism, there should be no nationalism, there should be this -ism and that -ism.” No need at all, it just happens. You jolly well become. As one finger becomes conscious of the whole body, you become conscious of the whole. And then this purity, the beauty of that All-Pervading Power engulfs into such a joyful state that I wish all of you should have it and get it. But one has to have the desire – ardent desire. If you do not have the desire I cannot make you have the desire. In simple ways one can say that I am your Mother, I have done the cooking very well and I know how to do it. I’ll work very hard for you but you have to taste it. You have to eat it. But if you are not hungry, you will not. You’ll find out some excuse to run away from it because you are not hungry.

So there are qualities of human beings, I find especially in this country, I find there are qualities– absolutely, you can see clearly that there are qualities of yearning. Like today one of the disciples told me that she was reading Mahabharata. It was written that in Kaliyuga, in these modern times, very few will be people and the rest of them will be animals. And she first could not understand it, what does that mean. It means that the people are the ones who are seeking and the ones who are not seeking are just like animals. Because they just are born, they eat their food, live in this world, may be insurance or something they do and then they die. That’s all. And maybe reserving some place in the churchyard or something at the most, or maybe they might be appearing in [UNCLEAR] by paying some money. That’s all. Nothing they have achieved in their life because they have no seeking. If the seeking is not there I don’t know whether even if you are an animal, because an animal seeks. I can’t understand how with freedom we have killed that instinct within us, which resides in the Nabhi as a seed that by which we seek our evolution. At this point when we are human beings we seek the beyond, the unconscious. But in India – people being simpler, not so complicated – it just works and they just get fixed there. It’s easier. Here people being more – I should say going into ramblings of thinking, thinking out everything, planning out of everything – do get Realization much faster sometimes with a greater force but they go into rambling. First they verify what Mother said is correct or not, they want to see, they want to know more of about it instead of enjoying it. But in India people say all right we’ve got it, let’s see it and enjoy, finished. Why to worry? How she’s made it, how she’s done it? Let’s enjoy it. It’s a simple straightforward approach but here it is that they want to verify in an intellectual movement and they go into that [UNCLEAR horn?] business. They go about it and then they ultimately find “yes, it’s the same”. They accept me mentally. It goes the other way around. It doesn’t matter whatever it is, [UNCLEAR see to it?]. You have to have it. You have to get it, it is your right. As I say, I’m just a cashier. I am cashing your cheques that’s all. But also I’m a Mother so I tell you why your cheques are not cashed. So if you can do this or that it will work out. It works out no doubt, even without having any account in the bank but then you have to make changes and you have to be there. The best thing is to know that you are not on this Earth on your own and that you are created into this beautiful human being. [It] is not to be wasted. [It] is not to be thrown away into grave without making it worth it. You must find out your worth and then the dignity of your own glory will manifest and you will be amazed at how beautiful you are.

May God bless you.

You can ask some sensible questions then I don’t mind spending some time, but should be sensible. I do not want to say that this guru said this, and that guru said this, or this book and so on. Because there’s no need to go into controversies and all nonsense such as this. This jungle we should avoid and get to the point. That’s the best way of doing things. But if there are some sensible questions I would definitely like to answer.

Thank you very much. I hope all of you who have come will not waste my energy and just go away and just don’t care for it. I would expect that. If it is that then I’ll never come to Chiswick.

Thank you very much.

[UNCLEAR audience member asks question]

Shri Mataji: It’s all there, it’s all built in all right? You just don’t worry, you’ll be all right. Now what else? Before we start that, now that’s the correct attitude because you are a seeker. Now what’s the question? Ask. If there is a question you must ask because I know this mind comes back and says “Oh you didn’t ask this important question”. 

[UNCLEAR audience member asks]

Shri Mataji: About what? Karma? Now who does the Karma within human beings is the ego. All right? If the ego drops out it’s not no more there, it’s a myth. Actually it’s a myth. Nobody knows it. It’s a myth because the Self is the one which you achieve. When you become the Self everything drops out. When you become the Spirit, all negativity drops. Some people are saying you must cleanse your karma. Now see you’re sitting in the car, how can you clean your car? Unless and until you get out of it you cannot clean it. So this is first getting out and then you do the cleaning part. But actually you’ll be amazed, after Realization you’ll find that your karma becomes so minuet that to work it out is very easy. If the car is not moving what are you doing about it? Nothing. So let the car be moving, isn’t it? Unless and until you have the lights you cannot move in darkness, can you clean it in darkness? If you do it you must [UNCLEAR] and that is what happens.

[UNCLEAR audience member asks question]

Shri Mataji: One session. I didn’t follow.


Shri Mataji: You should! That’s the best way. All the time I’m near Victoria and also we have a program every Monday in [UNCLEAR location name]. All of them – some of them have it in some places. 

[UNCLEAR from audience]

Shri Mataji: Yeah she’ll give you everything. That’s a very good thing to say. One feels so happy to hear such a nice thing from you. Very sweet of you. Normally people ask me the other way around, “Can it not work out with only sitting, Mother?” [laughter]. You see, the cheaper– the thing is like that only for say, sort of thing: “Can You do it with one penny?”, it’s like that.

You will see.

[UNCLEAR audience member asks question]

Shri Mataji: What does he say? Abortion?

[UNCLEAR from audience]

Shri Mataji: Before Realization one has no use talking about it – anything – because it doesn’t matter. Whether you have abortion or you have many children, what does it matter? It makes no difference to God. Here I’m talking from the divine, all right, from the divine point. For example the other day somebody asked me, “You are in your country, you have such a big population problem”. I said, what to do, you see? Because children do not want to be born in this country, they are all born there. What are we to do about it? So the divine’s angle is very different.

[UNCLEAR from audience]

Shri Mataji: There’s nothing relative. Now what happens when you are a Realized Soul – when you and your wife is also Realized – Realized children are born great souls. They are already– you don’t know in this country how many are already born. These two children are Realized Souls [Mother points to children in audience] and the mother doesn’t know. And such great children will be born to you, there’s no question of abortion. You cannot have the abortion. Absolutely, that’s it. But if they are not Realized Souls, useless, you see nobody is dying. Actually they can be born again. So it’s not something so fundamental. What I’m trying to say [is] that after Realization the whole thing changes. Whole thing changes. You don’t have many children, you have few, but you have first class children. Of course if you have say abortions, a child of yours supposing, when you do that there’s a right heart. Say you are a father and you had a child, you chose abortion by you for some purpose, then you do catch the chakra on the right heart no doubt. It’s a Rama’s chakra, is that. But it can cured. It’s all done in ignorance, it’s forgiven. Forgiveness is the greatest quality of God. He is the ocean of forgiveness. So you just don’t ponder about it because then you’ll say, “Oh I have done so much sins, what will happen?” Nothing. Everything is for God, it’s just the way that can [UNCLEAR]. It cleanses. It fulfills all the beings. It cures all your being and washes all your sins. What sins human beings can create? God is an ocean of compassion and a sin of a human being is not even a speck compared to that ocean. He is so great. You have to just feel it, you will be amazed how forgiving He is. His forgiveness is so sweet and so kind. It’s so loving because the kind of God we have known through other agencies has been something different. That’s why we don’t understand Him. But when you know Him through your Spirit, through your Atma, you find that you have been unhappy for nothing at all. Enjoy.

What others have to say? Yes?

[UNCLEAR audience member asks question]

Shri Mataji: Of course, of course you do. It depends on whenever you feel like. When you are out at shopping [laughter], it is not a time. If the time factor is not there– Now for example supposing when I was to be born, my father and mother were to be born before me. It’s all planned out beforehand. I know who is my father going to be, my mother too because I was aware even in that situation. And when you were to be born, you wanted to know and then you were going round and round for many years to find out whom should we choose as your father. Then that desire materializes. So you cannot take time, it’s immaterial what I am saying. But you do choose if you are a mediocre – say a person who is neither this nor that, a useless person, as I call them animals or something like that, of that awareness – then you don’t choose. You don’t mind coming on this Earth, just lay here and die. But if you are a person who is a seeker you do choose your parents, no doubt. But sometimes it tries to be wrong, but you have to pay for it.

[UNCLEAR audience member asks question]

Shri Mataji: It will be frightening to say that, isn’t it? But I think we come back as human beings because we behave like dogs. Like you go in a shop– [Mother laughs] today only I went in a shop and there was a lady. She just started barking at me for nothing at all, I just looked at her and said “What’s the matter with you?”. I didn’t say anything to her and she just started shouting at me. She might have been from a dog condition or maybe she is still a dog with a human body. So many times you can see people and sometimes I’ve seen people at a time they’ll behave like a scorpion and sometimes like a dog because you have freedom. They can be all the things they have gone through, they could be in one lifetime. Sometimes roaring like a lion, sometimes maybe a serpent but the worst is that human beings become immoral. They can become devils. That’s the worst thing. Animals may not but human beings do. That is what worries me.

Ask some other pleasant question because you all are very upset now. [Laughter]

Mark did you ask me any question? Yes? 

[UNCLEAR from audience]

Shri Mataji: All the time I’m available to you. We have an Ashram here, where people live, and I’m there every Sunday afternoon where you all will meet and you’ll bring your children also. And we’ll have a nice jolly time. We travel together, we go to various places in London, we live together, and we had a very nice seminar recently. We had about 60 people who were down there, it was a very nice place in [UNCLEAR Yorkshire?] and we all enjoyed thoroughly each other’s company. Very nice. Only after Realization we start feeling the fragrance of others and we enjoy.

You can ask Patricia, she is here, any other questions and you should meet her. Get all the addresses of the Ashram and all that. We’ll be very happy, very happy, to have you all there. We have sometimes dinners there. It’s all contributory, we do not ask for money or any funding – nothing like that. It’s an Ashram which is supported by some of the Sahaja Yogis who pay for the rent of the house and live there. There’s no money involvement of any kind. [UNCLEAR] That’s how they have kept it well. Everything is so open. 

With Yoga – this is the Yoga, it’s the union with God – it cannot be taught. It has to be worked out. But this Hatha Yoga, as we call it the Patanjal Shastra, we have to use some times but depending on the chakras. Supposing some chakras are not working out all right then we do have the asanas and pranayamas we use, but only if it is necessary. It is like this, you don’t take all the medicines together in this manner, everybody taking it. So whatever is needed is exactly the point. The mantras also you will know, you will be able to [UNCLEAR coin?] your own mantras, you will know where is your Kundalini, you will know how to improve it, how to raise it. You can tell others also what mantras they will need and how it changes. Everything you will know. All that knowledge which will be verified by you. Absolutely verified. All these things have a meaning if you have the light, otherwise anything done in itself is nonsense, isn’t it? I’ve seen people who have done Hatha Yoga, they catch on the heart. Can you imagine? On the heart, where their Spirit is, they catch on there. Why? Because if it’s Yoga it should reflect. You are more worried about your physical being [then] there is an imbalance. Of course the body is important but [UNCLEAR] because once you have the light everything works out by itself. Even cancer is only curable through Sahaja Yoga, there is no other way out. But till they get it they won’t come and then I’m not interested either because Sahaja Yoga is not for curing people. It is for Realization. Just as a byproduct the cure comes in because God can recreate it. God is not a doctor. Why not get your Realization so that you cure others? Is a simple thing, all right?

Any more questions? Now how many Yogis you have met? [laughter]

[UNCLEAR from audience]

Shri Mataji: One or two, that’s all? [UNCLEAR from audience] Thank God. [Laughter] 

[UNCLEAR from audience]

Shri Mataji: Are you a doctor?

[UNCLEAR from audience]

Shri Mataji: More than important. I told you that before Realization all this is done. They have to do something because they are not Realized.

[UNCLEAR from audience]

Shri Mataji: You see now for example, I’ll tell you a case of a heart plant all right? I’ll tell you, I have seen a person with a heart transplant. He came to me. He was better, he had been cured, he got his Realization also despite all that. You know it is nothing. People have committed such tremendous mistakes, still they have got it. The Spirit doesn’t live in the heart like a package stuff. Every night it comes out. So even if they start transplantation, it’s okay. Here we have all kinds of samples and all kinds of people coming around. One of them was a gentleman who came with a very crooked [UNCLEAR] like that, just like serpentine and all, I said now, how did you get this one? All kinds of samples are there I tell you. He said, “Mother I used to feel that this life is of no use. I have not found my fulfillment. So I did all kinds of things like parachuting, grand [UNCLEAR], this, that, dropped myself from everywhere, dropped myself on my house and I didn’t die. So I thought there must be some reason”. I said, “Now you’ll come with this broken stuff here”. So I was working on him left and right. So you see, he’s got his Realization.

What is it my child?

[UNCLEAR audience member asks question]

Shri Mataji: Oh when you pierce your Sahasrara here – when you pierce this point, here at the fontanel bone area – that is the time you really get your Realization because it starts flowing through you. All right? 

[UNCLEAR from audience]

Shri Mataji: No you shouldn’t say it that way. Enlightenment means your rebirth. You are born as a new child into a new awareness and you have to go and mature. When you mature then you can call it as Nirvana, but is the beginning of it. It is the beginning of it. It is not absolute Nirvana – some do [get] it, some do, I must say. I’ve known people who have just got it like that and they are there. But not more, not all. Some of them grow gradually. They are not yet prepared for that maturity. They mature gradually. Some grow very fast. There’s a difference. 

Even the people that are sitting here, there’s difference in their growth, in their way of movement depending on what sort of a problem Kundalini has. Not necessarily that you have committed sins. Could be that you have been to a bad guru who has ruined deliberately your Kundalini. Could be. But this is a state into which we move our awareness. There’s a very good lecture I gave in [UNCLEAR location name]. If you have time please ask them to give you that tape of whatever is the style they have. Listen to it. I’ve given them the seven points onto which you move in your awareness. But first of all you become thoughtlessly aware then you become doubtlessly aware. Once you become doubtlessly aware, you start giving Realization to others without any force. Now there are many here who are doubtlessly aware, can you believe it? First they were not even thoughtlessly aware. They were in a great mess. The first 6 ones, I worked with them for 4 years continuously. 6 of them. It would be sometimes say 6 or 8, I thought I’m going to lose but it worked. Now they are all right.

All right, should we now go ahead? Can you take out your shoes? Now why do we take out our shoes is because there’s a better earthing, you see? Just for earthing. Just put it like this, can you take out? Just, keep it one side– we can keep it on the chair. All right. 

Now you have to just put your hands like this. As I said told you that the fingertips have all the sympathetic centres here which have to be enlightened. So you just put your hands towards me like that. 

John can you remove this from here? He will do it, no problem. Thank you. 

Just put your hands – just like this towards me – and now you close your eyes. Just close your eyes. Now while closing the eyes you have to see that there is no flickering in your eyelids. If there is any flickering then you keep your eyes open. If there is no flickering then keep your eyes closed. 

Close your eyes. You will now find that there is no thought in your mind. Close your eyes completely. You will just find that there is no thought in your mind, please close your eyes. Don’t keep them open, just close them because the Kundalini won’t rise. If your eyes are open, the Kundalini won’t rise. If you see that, it will not cross the Agnya. 

Please hold your breath for just a second until I tell you to give it. Just hold your breath. Close your eyes.

Aham Sakshat Jagadamba, Aham Sakshat Jagadamba, Aham Sakshat Jagadamba. 

Please leave it. 

Again, please hold your breath.

Aham Sakshat Jagadamba, Aham Sakshat Jagadamba, Aham Sakshat Jagadamba.

Leave it. 

Last time, again please hold your breath. 

Aham Sakshat Jagadamba, Aham Sakshat Jagadamba, Aham Sakshat Jagadamba.

Leave it. Thank you. 

You’ll start feeling cool breeze in your hands, in your fingers. Keep your eyes shut. Just don’t think because the thoughts have stopped now. It will work out. By worrying about it, it is not going to work out. It will just work out because it has to work out. 

Keep your neck in a straight line, not in neither very high high or low, but in a straight line. Don’t pay attention in the centre of your eyes or anywhere, just let it be loose. Just let your attention be loose. Don’t force anything upon yourself, anything, just let it be loose. It’s a happening that has to take place within yourself. As soon as the happening takes place, the attention will be attracted inside. You don’t have to do anything about it. Nothing to be tried, just sit relaxed and it will work out by itself. You have to ask it from your heart, not from your brain but from your heart.