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Public Program in Zurich (Switzerland), 29 September 1980.
Gregoire: I would like to introduce very quickly Sahajayoga and Mataji. It is beautiful thing to do, it is not an easy one to introduce Sahajayoga. It is not an easy one because there are many, many propositions in the sale of spirituality, which are running in the market, hence Switzerland is a very unfortunate country, very unfortunate, because Switzerland is rich country. Being a rich country all the people who have been attracted by money had come down here. We have gone with Sahaja Yoga in countries like Portugal and Spain and there we have noticed that many hundreds of people got their self-realization without any problem. One of the reasons was that none of these people had been exposed to any of the false prophets, which today occult gurus. In Switzerland it’s very different because most of the fake gurus have taken the head quarters in Switzerland.
So first of all at the level of cybernation, at the level of energy, there is a lot of negativity and whenever people come they have a lot of problems. So we should be, may be proud that our trains are running on time, very happy that this itself, we should, however may be aware that there are other problems that they are very much there in our shoulders in this country. This is one reason for which that there are so few people here, whereas everywhere else there are many hundreds of seekers who have come together for self-realization. Because, with Mataji, what is the whole thing about is not brain-washing you, giving a pep talk on Kundalini, Chakras and Spirit. It is not giving you a lecture on spiritual achievements.
What Sahaja Yoga is about is to let you actually experience your own self-realization and self-realization is that is, is what has been promised by all the great spiritual leaders such as such as Guru Nanak such as Mohammed, such as Lao Tse, such as of course, Socrates and Lord Jesus Christ. Several realization is happening. Now Mataji is the only person, I know a lot of people, I went to California I mean I have met all kind gurus. Mataji is the only person who come Her own and say that I will give you your self-realization. She is the only One who does it because She is the only One who has the power to say so. And indeed every time is happens that after a program of Sahaja Yoga, many, the majority of the people lead the whole having felt their self-realization. What it is Mataji will explain to you, more in details. What have you just try to say may be that, we have all been looking for this thing. We have all been seeking.
Actually in my generation, when you were throwing stones at policemen, it was not human. May be the most intelligent thing we did in the nineteen sixties, but it was not totally purposeless either. I mean, basically there has been a generation, which has been seeking something, members of which today are nicely settled down as director of insurance agencies say is well, was all nicely, was all wrong. It’s not true. It’s not true that the quest is meaningless, it is not true that it reached nowhere. The quest has a meaning, the meaning of this quest, the meaning of our life. The meaning of our life is to find the ‘Self’. And whoever has all the great pictures of mankind know this, know that outside of the self there is no happiness, there is no fulfillment, you can seek it in power, in wealth, in woman, in whatever you like, you won’t get it, because the ‘self’ is joy and the ‘self’ is the source of joy. Now who can give you self-realization? Who can give? Not an ordinary one. This is very important, it has question. Because when we face the extra-ordinary or when we relay to the design we need push it back in to the past. So everybody become a great Catholic or a great Mesuline [NOT CLEAR] or great Ayatulla or great Silopro [NOT CLEAR], because it’s very easy to live with a divine personality when the personality is no more. Because can you do whatever you like with it? You are no more confronting with it. Or you push it in the future. So you are the Jeodar [NOT CLEAR] witnesses, which are waiting the Christ to come or Hare Krishnas who are waiting for Krishna to come and they gather regularly to say now He is coming on such and such date and as He does not come they say we prayed so much but He didn’t come. You know, it’s all a bit foolish and He does not or He does is not the point…. [NOT CLEAR]. The point is that we have now to experience what we have been seeking for and experience it in the present.
And to face Mataji in the present is not difficult at all. What it requires is just to be open. To be open, to be aware that belief is not the point, understanding is not the point, the point is to become what we want to become. The point is to become that part of our ‘Self’, which is within us. To face Mataji we need no more than this, this honesty, this seeking and also a drop of humility, because it’s not a market place. None of us need you, very frankly. We don’t need your money. We have plenty of it, I mean because we are working. We don’t need social status, by the grace of God we are born in families who are all right. We don’t need popularity, neither does Mataji need all these. She is born in a royal family, She is the wife of one of UN General Secretary. She has everything that you can wish as a human being. She is a mother, a grand mother. She is of course a married woman. This is a very different background mind you than other gurus, most of them were train collector or this kind of thing. The reason I explain you this is that you must realize that one has to see the whole picture of someone. Everybody has come to Mataji as a human person, has seen Her absolutely compassionate. Knowing the problems of all kind of human beings never ending, Her husband disclose that She knows the pain that She knows also the fullest details of problems of the painter who has to come to you know paint the wall of a flat. And he is a drunkard and he has a problem with his wife and Shri Mataji helped him and very much so.
She has knowledge of human beings, in the human quality, which is amazing and She is led in this understanding by a boundless compassion. And also She very much as amicable, thus [NOT CLEAR] super human knowledge. What Mataji will talk about this evening is very human because it handles our being, emotional, mental, physical, spiritual, and it’s also super-human because it is the way we can reach that higher level of awareness which has been promised by, again by Christ and by all the other incarnations.
Mataji is not a saint, Shri Mataji is not a leader, She is not a guru, She is, I don’t dare saying She is not a Mother, because She is that, but I would like to say that She is all these and much more. And please forgive me if I push it through you straight now so that we are always in time. Let’s not done a lies [NOT CLEAR], let’s not a false shyness, let’s not try to make trivial some thing, which is actually safer. I have approached Mataji like all others, I mean with a lot of questions in my mind, very analytical, extremely skeptical, ups and downs, ups and downs for … [NOT CLEAR]. And She will own on experimental basis I could check every thing, which She is teaching, and above all I could see how positively I have been changing in my own life. This doesn’t mean anything to you because you didn’t know me five years ago that five years ago I was in trouble. I was back from the US, I had a lot of all kind of analytical things in my system, wrongs, other things. And I was pretty normal, I mean I had done my studies, all that was quite there. That I was pretty abnormal, because I could not stop thinking any more. I was a very disturbing sign. Now I am very much in I can say very quietly because it is simply true. This you know it happens or it does not happen that if it happens you know someone very great has worked it out.
So you are facing now someone, who is of boundless compassion and who is also very, very great power. Who that person is, is also no mystery because the meeting with your ‘Self’ is triggered by the awakening of a energy, which is the energy of the Holy Spirit within us, energy which is called Kundalini in Sanskrit. And it is written in the scriptures that, that energy can be raised by a very, very high guru after many, many lives of practices. That coincides with the Markandeya puran and in the writings of Shri Adi Sankaracharya. It is written very clearly that this energy is vision by the wave power of Bhagawati. Bhagawati is a name for Divine Mother. Divine Mother is all about for Holy Spirit. And it’s very simple, I don’t know how to avoid saying it. You can’t have a father and you can’t have a son without having a mother somehow. I mean, so that’s it. Everything I say is no matter of faith, it’s no matter of belief. You are not meant at all to accept any of my words. My words are just supposed to bring in, I profess it to you, which is very cheerful because it says this hypothesis that there is here some one sitting down here who has the power to raise my Kundalini, who is a divine personality and this I really would like to emphasize. And I am fortunate enough to meet Her. It is may be our sorrow that there are many more of you, which are here this evening that it doesn’t really matter because in this realm it’s really the quality of the seeker who comes. We never were in the circus I mean never there, that those who are seeking will come there. Mother I think I should end up here …
Shri Mataji: It was very nice Gregoire came to speak in this manner. Actually this is the second time I am coming to Switzerland. It’s such a beautiful country that surprisingly all the negative forces are attracted towards it and they want to spoil the beauty of the Lord. But even among human beings we can see how people have become so reckless in this country, such a beautiful country where God has blessed you with everything that the rate of suicides in this country are today the highest. We have to think about it, why young people of this country try to suicide? It’s a very sad thing. You have taken everything for granted, not to understand that there are some undercurrents, which are throwing us towards our self-destruction, towards our complete frustration.
I have been studying human nature since ages I should say. In modern times the human nature has changed very speedily, because the speed has taken no time. Specially, in all the developed countries lots of things have been written, lots of ideas have been floated, and people have taken a line of thinking in most of these that life is futile. It’s not but theory. The reason is you cannot live with what you have, within yourself there is a seeking of the beyond. You cannot be satisfied with what you have. That seeking loves [rany? many? NOT CLEAR]. Even if you try to avoid it by, say, going to some few places, reading some book, going to the church, going to the temple, doing this and doing that but you cannot be satisfied unless and until you have achieved your self knowledge, unless and until you have become your own ‘Self’. It is not possible, because you are meant to get it.
Sahaja means that, Sahaja means one that is born with you. This urge is born within you, you are born with the urge. As you have the urge to eat, in the same way this urge, which is very subtler urge, is becoming so evident in modern times. In most of the developed countries, that people do not understand why, why is it they are committing, these people are committing suicide. The thing is from inside they are seeking something. They are not sure as to what they are seeking. They are very week and when they approach the subject of seeking, may be they have lost in this big universe, they don’t understand how to get it. On the contrary in the East I would say especially in India, thanks to the climatic conditions in India that people didn’t have to fight the nature so much. They have been practicing meditation in the forests since ages and they have been able to discover many things about our being within and what is our seeking and actually why are we born. This question has been looked into in the same way as you have looked into the scientific research in the modern countries. And they have been able to see within themselves that there is a power called as Kundalini in the triangular bone, which is the source by which our germination takes place, our second birth takes place.
For example for all of you Bible is the book and if Christ is the ideal then Christ has said many a times that you have to seek. Actually the message of Christ lie is seeking. The message is delivered. He has talked about it often on, often on, but some how that seeking has been stopped as if people felt that does not possible so forget it. But you cannot stop because this is natural to us. As it is natural for you to be a human being, it is absolutely natural for you to be something more than that. If you do not achieve it, not today, tomorrow you will have to come to a point and you will have to find out what is the reason, why am I here, what am I doing, what is the purpose of my life. Is it meaning less, or is it just to earn some money, live well and die? The question should be asked by the scientist, why we are created out of a amoeba a unicellular animal into human being? Why? Why this big process of evolution took place within us? And what is the purpose of this human being who is half baked yet, who does not know who knows half, who does not half, what ever he knows he knows through his rationality, but there is no actual understanding, actuality within us, know whether there is spirit or not.
Are we to believe that all those people who talked of the spirit and of the second birth were false people or they were just trying to misguide us? They were not. They are absolutely truthful about it. The problem is they had born on the church shown and they see something, which the people on the ground floor can not see. That’s why they crucify them, they kill them, they poison them and they never accept them. And this is the reason something has to be done to the common masses that they reach at least first or the second story to see that some thing beyond. This is very important and the time has come as I always say the blossom time has come. Now we went to, say Madrid is a place I had never been there, we just put an advertisement, we had about hundred people and most of them got realization. Just like that. They can, because the time, when the time has come that maturity has reached, many flowers have to become the fruits.
It’s a living process, it’s a living process of transforming you into something else which is the fruit of this age. The process is working out from the very beginning from ancient times till you have come to the human stage and now you have to become that where you start understanding this divine power, which has worked it out. Everything is Sahaja. It’s spontaneous. Sahaja is born with you. Like in the seed there is map of the whole creation, which is going to be there. In the same way within you lays all the map everything how far you have to go. Now the question is what have we to seek? We have to seek our ‘Spirit’. Now what can we do about it? Actually we cannot do any thing about it. That’s the fact. Because to become a human being what did you do? Did you stand in your heads or read some books. Nothing. It just happens. It’s spontaneous.
Its God’s grace that has made you human beings and you are going to be something else also because of the same ways. You cannot do anything about it once you know this fact that it is effortless. All living processes are effortless. For example a flower becomes a fruit without any effort. It is spontaneous. In the same way you also achieve that state, effortless, is a fact. Those people, who tell you give us ten francs and we will teach you how to reach to God, better tell them there is no ticket. There is no way of doing it. If they tell you that you stand on your heads three days, you will become self realized, it’s absolutely wrong, because, if it is a living God and the living process, it cannot be manufactured or it cannot be putting to it. But it is very difficult for people to understand that you can achieve any thing without paying for it, specially where Zurich and all these places and banking is the main thing. You see we can, I have no banking or even, of God. But you cannot purchase God. You cannot purchase it. You cannot perceive it. You cannot organize it. If you want to organize God, you are sadly mistaken. He organizes you. He looks after you. It is his grace that is wanted. It is not that you can make God to think but it is He who should do it out of His grace and love for you. It is a very different thing, while the fake people have just floated a market. Just imagine, market of God. It is all predicted in all the scriptures that they will be coming and they will be saying I am Christ I am Christ and they will be floating a market. But this is the one thing one should see those who have floated the market can not be Christ. Cannot be anything Divine. This first thing one should find out if the person is trying to make money out of you selling God then he has nothing to do with God. With God he is anti. This is first thing one should do. It has to be compassion, it has to be love. And compassion, which just flows, which doesn’t ask for, just flows. It just emits from your being. Just to give and not to receive anything on the other hand.
As you remember once somebody touched Christ and he said the energy has passed into the person. Is that correct? It’s flowing. True. All the time it’s flowing, it is to be received with an open mind and to achieve what you have to achieve like the Sun’s rays are received by the flower to become the fruit. What does the flower do? Nothing, it just receive the power of the Sun and becomes a fruit. In the same way this happens and He has very nicely placed within us, all these different thing just to achieve the spirit.
Now as you see here, there are seven centers are shown in this picture out of which the lowest one is placed below the Kundalini, it’s placed below the germinating power. This one is placed here. This is your innocence. You are born in innocence. Firstly human beings were born in innocence. This is the center of your innocence. We all were born innocently. And this represents the quality within us, which is absolutely pure, which is purity. And above the Kundalini, the rest of the centers are there which they denote our different ascent in our evolution. Vertically it is the evolutionary process and horizontally it is our subtle and subtler and subtlest development of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual being.
So as you see these centers exist within us, in our spinal cord, then in our brain and then in the limbic area, which is encircled on top of the head. These centers are actually subtle centers but they manifest themselves out side as gross plexuses. For example the lowest one, which is called in Sanskrit language as Mooladhar charka. It manifests your pelvic plexus. The second one, which is called as Swadhistan chakra manifests as your aortic plexus. The third one, which is called as Manipur is manifested as solar plexus. Then higher than that is the, what you call as heart center, you can call as a Hriday charka is manifested as your cardiac plexus. Then, here is the center, which is called as Visudhi charka is manifested outside as cervical plexus. On top here is a very subtle center between your pituitary and pineal body, which is called, as Agnya charka, is a very important center, is the center of Christ. And on top here in between here is the center of we can say, we call it Sahastrara means a.. we can say the center of one thousand petals, Sahastrara. And this is the center of your limbic area, which is responsible for opening the top most point here in the fontanel bone, which is called as the Brahma Randhra means, the hole of the divine power where in through which we enter into subtle awareness of divinity. This is baptism. This is actual baptism. Not a false one, where just some body comes from the theological college, bring some water and puts on your head and say now you are baptized. That’s not actual, because Kundalini hasn’t risen with that, because the person has to have authority from God’s college. If the person doesn’t have that authority if a person is not enlightened already, he cannot enlighten another person. It’s a very simple thing, like a candle which is not enlightened cannot enlighten another candle. It has to be enlightened to enlighten another candle. In the same way person who is not enlightened cannot raise the Kundalini. You have to be an enlightened person, a realized person, a person who is twice born and a person who is called also as ‘Brahmin’ in India of course its all words as par. Even ‘Christian’ means the person who is baptized. Baptized in the real sense and not in an artificial. Artificially if you suppose I take a telephone and starts dialing and there is no connection will it work? It is a very simple thing. The one who has no connection with the Divine has no right to raise the Kundalini, he cannot. Whatever you may try it won’t act. Because, She understands. She knows everything, She coordinates everything, She works out everything, She is your mother and She loves you very much. So She knows who is the person who is responsible and that’s how spontaneously the Kundalini rises. You are just made ready. No instrument is there. It’s like a computer, it’s all ready. Just to be put to the mains. And once is put to the mains you are surprised at the manifestation of your own.
Like I would say in this place, you can say that there is lot of music and lot of scenes and things like that and there is lot of color. But you won’t believe till you have a television set and you put it and plug it to the mains, you start the manifestation of the television and you get surprised. In the same way you are an instrument most beautifully made. Absolutely so beautifully made that once you discover it you will be amazed as to what you are. The reason is the self-esteem, is not possible because you have not known your ‘Self’, you have not known your ‘Self’, you have not known your own beauty and your values. I can see that spirit, I see that the path remains. And I know that with little patience I will work it out, the clouds will go away and you will shine in your own beauty. It works out through this awakening of the Kundalini. Now there have been also many gurus who are talking of raising the Kundalini. I mean whatever you talk they are there. Like everything has a plastic reproduction, in the same way even about God in modern times your plastic production of Him [NOT AUDIBLE]. Now they will say they we raise the Kundalini, we do this and we do that – then why do you take money? If it is living process why do you need money? It just flows automatically. Why should you take money for that? Or why should you in any way connect it with material? If it is spiritual, you cannot exchange material for the spiritual. It is very necessary, specially in Switzerland for people to know that how these gurus are exploiting. But still despite the fact so many things have been found out. Last time when I came to Switzerland, Gurwada has taken Me to one of the gurus place and he showed Me this is one of the gurus place. And within eight days he was caught by the police and I was surprised that he had a nurse who had poisoned some people and all that, and he was caught by the police. But still people believe in such things because they mesmerize. They do not want to give it up.
Now in England recently a guru came from America and he has already got fifty-eight Rolls Royce’s, imagine. Fifty-eight Rolls Royce’s. And he wrote to them that if you give me a Rolls Royce, I will come to you. So these four things start themselves for the whole year. These are seekers, these are real seekers, you see, mesmerized by these horrible satanic people and they starve themselves and after a year this fellow came in. They gave him a Rolls Royce. When some of the Sahaja yogis went and asked, ‘Why did you do it,’ they said, “You see, he has given something special, we live in another world, you see,” because mesmerized person lives is like a mad man, he doesn’t know where he is living, and, “he has given us that.” So we just give him what matter. What is Rolls Royce, is matter. We give him matter and he gives us spirit. There is no exchange. You cannot exchange spirit for matter. Spirit stands by itself, by its beauty, by its glory. You cannot exchange it for anything and you cannot force it to express itself. It has to happen. There has to be a happening within. Then only we can feel the spirit in our attention.
The thing is so far we have got our nervous system and that nervous system we are aware of. We know how to increase the rate of our heart, supposingly jump or run the heart increases in its rate. But automatically it comes. Now when we say it comes down automatically people say there is an autonomous nervous system that does it. Now who is this auto? Autonomous system means there is some auto. Now who is this auto? Which auto is doing this job? That they cannot answer. And then they say, o that part we do not know. I mean they are very honest about it. But if somebody can say that through meditation we know who is this auto, they don’t want to believe it. Because, I am talking our unlimited sphere, where you become absolutely collective, you become unlimited. Because now through you start flowing unlimited force, the unlimited energy of God’s love. You cannot reach there through this limited rationality. When you try to rationalize it either you will go to the left or to the right.
Left and right, there are two areas within us. And these two are really dangerous. You have to go on top of the head. On the left hand side we have the area, which we call as collective sub conscious. All that is dead within us since the creation resides in that area. Recently, to My amazement I saw a program in the BBC where they showed that cancer is caused by some sort of a protein matter that invades us from the areas unknown to us within ourselves, which were built since that age. And these are the areas we have got within us according to Sahajayoga and that’s why Sahaja yoga can cure cancer. Because when the attention through the help of the Kundalini raises and enters into the realm of the spirit which is here then you cannot go to the left or right but you keep to the center. Once you try to go too much on the left or too much on the right then there is an invasion on both the sides and you can become overactive, so active that you cannot stop your thinking. Gregoire was one of the victims of one of such an attack on him because he went all out for his search into all sort of people he went and there I found that he was caught up and he could not stop his thinking, his mind was going on like that like a mad horse and when he came to Me he was in a very bad shape. Now this comes from right hand side movement. But it can come also from left hand side movement. Any way if you move away from your center being, you fall into the area where you are attacked. Now cancer can be cured through Sahaja yoga. I have been saying this for so many years. Of course we have done it. Also for your information I can tell you that our president, president of India was cured through Sahaja yoga. His cancer was cured. He had a cancer, he went to America and the whole operation was unsuccessful. He was just dieing. He came to London and there I happen to meet him for ten minutes. You can write to him and find out. And you must [NOT CLEAR]. But the trouble is people don’t believe it. Even the doctors when they come to Me they are very skeptical. But once they get a cancer they come to Me to get cured. The trouble is the whole thing is unbelievable. It is such a dynamic thing, it is such a fantastic thing that people cannot believe it.
Only thing you should know that there is a power all pervading which exists all around, which thinks, which understands which coordinates. We do nothing. Human beings have this ego for nothing at all. They really don’t do anything. For example what do we do is to making a chair. Just a tree is there. We make it into a chair – a dead into a dead. Any living thing do we do? Can we transform a flower into a tree? You can’t. Billions and billions of such things are done every moment on this earth and is done through this divine power of God. We have to feel that, we have to become that. We have to be instrumental. God has specially made this instrument in such a way that ultimately you get connected to the whole. Once you get connected you start feeling your working on collectivity. Your awareness becomes different and from your hand cool breeze starts flowing and energy starts flowing. And you can feel another person through this cool breeze. You can feel it, what centers there are catching. You can see on the hands we have shown. When these centers are enlightened how these sympathetic centers on our hands, you can feel it and you can find out what’s the matter with another person. What center is catching, where is the problem, what we have to do. It’s an integration of a person, completely because these, all the centers represent our different beings. When the Kundalini passes through them, She pierces through them just like a thread through many pearls and integrates. But when She enters through this path, then she enters into this awareness, this dynamic awareness of which we become an instrument, which starts flowing, you can feel it. Then as Gregoire has said, he was really very skeptical [NOT CLEAR], he wanted to find out, he could not believe it.
Though you have heard about it, you know that there is a God’s power and all that but you could not believe it. So you try to experiment, you try to find out what Mother says is correct or not. And when he found out then he was amazed. And that’s how he is a Swiss person and he felt that his country must know this and it has to happen in Switzerland also. Why not? I said all right, “I will try to come”. But you see how is the response that people are enamored in a materialistic country by the outward show and the service. God does not have any service nor outward show. It is what it is. What is there to show when it is there why should we show it off? But the trouble is that you have to talk and tell them about the people who are trying to enamor them because they are seekers that you do not seek God in the way you seek other things. For God you have to have a happening within you, an actual experience with in you, it’s a real actualization. Why the happening is within us? Why should we deal without happening? The thing is you are paying attention to Me now. If I say pay attention to yourself, you cannot do it. Because that’s not the way you can manage it. Your attention is always outward, you cannot take it inside. Supposing something falls down, immediately your attention will be there. So when the Kundalini rises your attention is attracted inside and it is actually pulled like a sari is pulled up and is taken to this place where there is seat of the spirit. But actually the spirit resides in the heart.
Today is on My way to home, I have come here for one day. It’s an introductory lecture actually and I do not want to cover the whole subject because the subject is too big. And whatever I may say has no meaning and lesson to the lecture of realization. That’s one thing. That is that you must get your realization. But that it will happen to you cannot be promised. Will happen or may not happen but should happen to all of you. It has happened to so many people. Why not to you? It should happen to all of you. But for that you have to keep your mind absolutely open. Because it is proven, it is fantastic, it is proven. But this you have to have. This is your own right to have. So Yoga means the union. This union you have to have. This is in your own right as a human being, in your own right as a seeker you have to get it. And if not today you will come tomorrow, if not tomorrow you will come some other day. Those who are all seeking this way here and there will be all be saluted and will come to Sahaja Yoga. But when you go round here and there you will get hurt. There are problems. I have seen some people have Kundalini, which is just wounded and She just moves on, banging here and there as She cannot rise. She is wounded, She is bleeding. It is only because of these satanic people have done something to Her. And there are so many ways they know how to ruin your chances of realization.
Now one may say what is My interest? Its only I should say, ‘My wish’. I do not know, because I have no interest at all about anything. It’s only that I have to give. What is the interest of the Sun in giving us light? It’s just giving because that’s the nature of a person. That’s the nature of the Sun that it has to give. That’s how it works. There is no other interest but that. Of course when I see so many flowers turning into the fruits naturally, it’s such a joyous thing and it should happen because this is the last judgment. This is how you are going to be judged through the awakening of your Kundalini. This is the last judgment. There is not going to be somebody standing with a weighing machine and weigh you. It is the Kundalini, which is the center point, which is the central what you call pointer by which you will be judged, all of you. And you will judge yourself. But this judgment is not the way people think that it is a second judgment. Though the Kundalini rises in split of a second, but you will be given complete chance to correct yourself, the all right, and that is what it is.
On such a one-day lecture I think I have said quite lot about Kundalini and tried to cover-up most of the points. But in details we will be dealing with when I come back here for three days and we will have to do something about it. Now if you have any questions please ask Me. That’s a good thing, because unless and until you ask Me questions I have to give what are the problems. And then we see how many of you can get realization. In a way it is good on the first day that you get it, because you can get it better. So not to feel unhappy about it. You see because you get so unhappy, see these people because they have got it they want to share it with you. Because they have found it so they want to do it. They are just like you, very ordinary normal people as you are all of them and nothing special about them to look at. But they have changed their lives, they are transformed. They are very happy people and they are doing this work themselves. So that’s how they feel little unhappy about it that the people in Zurich have not given response. But I am not, because the beginning is always so small, always and some times it can be a sign of a biggest thing. For example if you see the biggest tree in India is called as Aswathama. It’s a tree, which has such a small little seed, such a small little seed that, it is the biggest tree. So it starts with a small seed. There is nothing to feel bad about it. It’s better to have people of quality few of them than to have many with out any quality without any sense in that. So I would say that you should feel quite happy about what ever is there we have very nice people and you will get realization and the [second round is correct I think?] is going to work out very well. May God bless you.
Now please ask Me questions. It’s important because today we have some time, and it would be a nice idea to know about what people think in Zurich.
Seeker: You told us about baptism I am a Roman catholic. Roman catholic belief says you said by just doing this water.. that certain person who can do that not all persons do that and.. Roman catholic believe says everyone can do it. The water is.. and doesn’t need much.. spirit of God should come in [ NOT CLEAR]
Shri Mataji: I will tell you, I know this problem I have been facing throughout, because Catholicism is a very strong hold everywhere. So I am not surprised at your question. But I will tell you. You see, now I will tell you that supposing there is a policeman standing on the road and he stops, you stop your car. But supposing somebody says I am the policeman, will you stop your car? Supposing he believes, he has a belief that ‘I am the policeman’, will you stop your car? He has to have authority. Now, from where do you get your authority? You have to get it from God. Now what is the sign? Christ has said again and again and again and again that you have to seek your self, you have to born again. Which Catholic people are doing that? You see, just tell Me. Just tell Me very frankly. I have not seen any Catholic person who is seeking God. They are only satisfied, in going to Church, coming home nothing else. By reading Bible what have they achieved ages together now we have had Catholicism? Nobody is a realized soul. On the contrary I was amazed now she is another Catholic who was with Me before her I tell you in Madrid they were at least hundred twenty people, all of them got realization except for one doctor and why? I asked him and these people told Me he is a Catholic. It’s a fanaticism. Belief is our mental attitude. Why do you believe? I tell you why do you believe in Christ though I am absolutely that? But I would say Why do you believe in Holy Ghost also? Have you seen it? Have you felt it? Ask for, ask for the real. If you live with something belief, you will die with it. Ask for the real. If there is Holy Ghost, if there is divine power, you should feel it. I think all the Catholics should ask, where is that? That is promised. What about the second birth? How long? You see your father was Catholic, his grand father was a Catholic, her great grand father was a Catholic, the whole progeny has been of Catholic. What have they done? What have they achieved? You see, we have to see that we have to be born again. We are to be born again.
[Side A Ends]
Saintly life and all that is there. But Christ came. Why was it necessary for Christ to come when Moses has told all these things? Why did He come? He came to give the message of resurrection. He came for you to know that you have to become the spirit. You have to be born of your spirit. That was it. Now how many of these people who are baptizing are ‘born again’? This is the point. Today, sir you are accepting Catholicism, but your children won’t. In London, people are selling their Churches. I mean what a shame? I feel hurt about it because this is Christ’s one and because you have not put forward the real thing it is going to fade out, everywhere. Everywhere it is going to fade out. Now I live just in front of a picture hall [NOT CLEAR] in London. And they are going to start a discotheque. Really it is a fact. I mean imagine what a thing it is! Because they want to attract the young people. Now I have so many young people as My disciples in Europe and in India. I do not have to keep them attracted because they are attracted because of the truth that they are spirits. Give them the truth. It’s the living God you have to give them. Do not talk, give Sermons, this that, what’s the use? Tell Me what’s the use. Everybody believes in this thing that ‘I have met Christ’. All nonsense. Unless and until you have the power, unless and until you become real Christian, it is no meaning. Then what happens? Then you start feeling others. You know, what’s the matter with the person. You can feel. The energy flows through. You can raise the Kundalini, this living thing you can. You can see with your naked eyes, this Kundalini pulsating. You can see it rising with your naked eyes, which is a living thing, which you cannot do.
So far human beings cannot do anything living. After realization, they can do. Have they created living people, any living experience? Nothing, all dead. I have nothing against Catholicism as such, but where are you going? You know how far you have come spiritually. After realization, you know, you know well. You know well what chakra is catching, where are you, how to rise. You see there is nothing like ‘Christ coming’, somewhere hanging in the air. It’s a big tree of life. Christ was the fruit of that tree. You must know others also. He said that those who are not against me are with me. Who are those? Who are those about whom he said? He said I will appear before you like tongues of flames. You really see your Chakras like ‘tongues of flames’? Now let the questions explain, we cannot. They have their own interpretation. All mental. It is not mental, it is the vibratory awareness, which is going to give you the interpretation. For example, if I ask you, is this gentleman realized or not. Can you tell Me? Can any? Please say whether he is realized or not. But he can say, whether you are or not which [beast?] it is [NOT CLEAR]. And you don’t know what is happening in case to God also. One should face it. It is very clear-cut because now I am getting into trees [??] as my research. When I see them I am surprised, they said that from inside they are getting absolutely choked. This every day confessions and things coming to us and we want to seek. There are so many priests who go to India in ordinary dresses for seeking. They are going all over the places for seeking. Because they are human beings, they want to seek. I had to …. [NOT CLEAR] we had trees [??] who came to us, who are seeking. And they have got their gurus in India and the guru one she told Me was a realized soul. How will you know? What I am saying this, no way of knowing. You are in a blank. So what will happen? Tomorrow your children will be born with intelligence, they will not accept any blind faith. They will say, ‘Give us the proof of what you said.’ They say, ‘We do not even accept Bible.’ Give us the proof. So somebody has to give the proof and you have to establish the one, which is being refused by everyone. I am here to prove everything, prove your scriptures, prove the Bible and prove the whole thing that is the truth. I am not here to establish a Church, which is just built on bricks. But every human being is a Church. That’s what I am here to prove it. And what these people have proved is nothing.
I went to Shah, such a nice beautiful temple they have made. There is not a single person is thinking of God. Not a single person thinking of seeking. They are just watching all the paintings, this that. Nobody has anything in a… One should understand that we have to find solution. We have to give meaning to God’s creation. We should not any doubt by some thing. I would suggest you first get your realization. The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it. Now I am very happy that being a catholic person, you have come and you are seeking as a quest. That’s a very great thing. And once you get it, then you will realize what I am talking. It’s a new dimension, which has to come within us of reality. Not a [fun reality?]. It is so unreal when you start seeing from reality that you are shocked and you are surprised.
For your information, I took My birth in a Christian family, for the same reason. So many people ask Me, why did you take? In India specially, because most of My disciples are Muslims and Hindus and not Christians, they are forbidden. They are absolutely forbidden to go to somebody who is Christian. So they are all kinds. Even Muslims, I have got disciples in Algeria, Morocco, but I have no disciples who are Christians. Only those, who are young people, who are real seekers. Young people of Europe and of other countries are the real seekers. They do not accept anything blindly. But for them these thugs have come and they have misused. Catholicism got more importance because Protestants did not show any one. So they thought it is better to go to another theory to be here. That’s how they got. But did you get your realization? Did you get your ‘second birth’? Ask yourselves. Why should you miss this chance? Better have it. Supposing you were born in India, you would not have been a Catholic. So is it denied? By joining a Church do you become a special person, do you think so? Do you believe in it? How many believes in such a thing? He does. You see unless and until you belong to His group, you cannot be saved by God. This is all make finish. Only you will be saved by God if you are authorized. You must get your second birth. You must really get your real living baptism. John the Baptist, he tried it. He tried, didn’t work out, didn’t work out. He was the only person, who was a realized soul. He tried.
Of course, Christ was an incarnation, I can prove it to you where is Christ. Do you know where Christ within us? Do you know? Catholics who has been talking so much about God, do they know where is Christ within us? Where is He placed within us? Where is He placed? They do not know. He exists here, in the brain between the Pituitary and the Pineal. Now how do I prove it? When the Kundalini rises, if She stops you here you have to say Lord’s Prayer. That’s the mantra for this center. You have to say, ‘O Lord, Jesus Christ, please arise.’ Only a realized soul can say that and the Kundalini goes up. Actually Christ is really missing from most of the Christian missions because Christ is the person, who controls our ego. These are all ego-oriented countries. Look at Him. He lived like an ordinary man. He was the son of a carpenter. Are we have Christians, the way we live, the way we attach importance to material things? The center here when the Kundalini crosses over, we become absolutely thoughtless. And the way to do it is to forgive but not before anybody else, but before a realized soul. If you say, ‘Mother I forgive’, it works, Kundalini raises. The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it. Whatever I say I will prove it. There is no mystery about it. And this is the best part of it. The mystery, they will say there is a mystery. Now if there is a mystery, what are you doing there? I mean, if it is mystery for you that means you are blind. And the blind leading the blind, where will you land? It’s simple. You just think about it. I am here to complete His work. I am here to establish and prove Him. Those who have not been able to prove Him should accept this and they will know that there is a way of proving Christ.
It is such a vague thing that people talk of Christ so much and think of Him. But they have built their own causes, that’s the problem. They will follow, the time has come for these things to follow. People are going to challenge and ask, ‘What about your rebirth?’ Even the water, a realized soul touches becomes vibrated. Even the fire, it acts when you enlighten it. But you have to be a realized soul, that’s the main point here. To be born of your spirit.
All right. This is the point is that it’s not talk, talk, talk, talk. It’s something that should happen. Any other questions? [Mother talks aside] Give Me some water.
Because, to establish your self, your realization, you have to come again. Of course, you will get realization today, no doubt. But it is not established in most of the people in western countries, because they think about it. I mean, how can you think about a flower becoming a fruit? You don’t have to think about it. But your realization you start thinking their ramblings. So then their Kundalini again goes down. Again you have to raise it. So I would suggest that even if you get realization today please come back again. Bring more friends, more people. This is to be given to all the people. This is what they are seeking and they have to have it. Any other question?
Seeker: You can, you can feel it and the in hands are the green finger and there is a blue one and yellow one [NOT CLEAR] How is it different in chakras?
Shri Mataji: Yes, Yes. You see in all our hands, there are five, one two three four five and six and seven centers are there. And they get enlightened. This is the seven. This is the seven, the Sahastrara, here. And this is the first. First and the second and the third and the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh. This is the center of Christ. See, if somebody is thinking too much then this center will be burning, you will feel it. That’s all. You know there was one gentle man, a English one, who first came to Me and got his realization And he could not believe it. This is too fantastic for him to believe. But he started getting burning here. So he said Mother, what does this mean? I said this is your father’s centers because right hand is father’s left hand is mother’s. And father’s center is also within us. Now I said this is your father’s and this is the center of your Vishudhi, here the throat. So if it is burning, that means your father must be down with bronchitis. This is the center I told you. Immediately he telephoned to his father in Scotland. Father didn’t come to the phone, the mother came. And he asked about the father.
He [She ?] said, “He is down with bronchitis.”
This is the sentence she said. And you can cure sitting down here, you can, because it is all connected. All your inter communications and all that have come from the same. You can work it out.
There is a letter I received just before coming. There is an Australian gentleman who got his realization. And he has written to Me, he is going to come and see Me in Germany. And he said that, “I must thank you very much.” His wife, wife’s sister was suffering from epilepsy. Since the day I got my realization she is all right. Her epilepsy was cured. We have cured so many patients suffering from epilepsy, you can’t imagine. People have given up drinking, smoking, drugs, because you find that source, which is the source of joy. Then you give up all these things. It should happen. I don’t have to tell people not to do this and do that. Just goes out. Because once you have found that, the nectar, the ambrose, you don’t want to care for other things, you are not bothered. You are never bored. Because you live in the present, you just enjoy yourself. The spirit enjoys by itself. But when your attention enters into it, enlightenment of its enjoyment comes into your attention. You start enjoying yourself. This has happened to these young people here who are sitting down and should happen to all of you. It is fantastic. God is extremely fantastic. Tremendous He is, His ways and methods, you have not yet felt. Once you feel it, you will be amazed how He looks out. Every moment to moment, what joy and what happiness!
So that I am going to tell you when you come next everything in details, I will tell you what is what and what is there. Nothing is going to be kept a secret or a mystery and you yourself will know what is happening. Even a child of say 3 years or 4 years, if he is a born realized child, he can say that this is the center or this is the center, you can feel it. He may not know the name but he can tell you the center. It is fantastic, no doubt. Now what is he? You have any questions?
[Seeker says something which is not clear]
Shri Mataji: To be. That’s it. You are just there. You are saying the same thing.
[Seeker says something more which is not clear]
Shri Mataji: You become in the center. You are neither passive nor active, you just watch, you become a witness of the whole thing. You see it’s a situation in which you are in the center. For example, I will tell you a very simple example, which will explain your question. When a person does something he thinks I am doing it. All right? If somebody doesn’t do it, he says I am not doing it. But supposing the Sun, he just emits, he is in non-action, he is doing nothing, he is just emitting. You go into a state where it becomes occurring where you do not do anything. By doing something you will develop your ego. By not doing something you develop your super ego. But by becoming realized it just emits. You become a hollow personality. You are not there.
It’s a very sweet story of Radha and Krishna, I will tell you. Once Radha was jealous of the flute of Shri Krishna and she said what is so special that she is always at your lips. So Krishna said why don’t you ask her. It’s a symbolic story.
She went and asked. She said, “What is your speciality that you are always at His lips?”
The flute smiled, she said that, “My speciality is that I have no speciality. I am not there, I am a hollow personality, His flute and I am flowing His melodies. People think that I am doing it, but I am just a hollow personality.”
So, you are neither passive nor active but you are doing it, its happening. And you just see, your language changes, language changes. You say like that. Now for example if I ask Mathiyas [Mathews ??] to give you realization, he will not say I am giving realization, he will not say. He will say it’s not coming, it’s not going, it’s not working. It, you become a third person. You understand now that point?
[Seeker says something]
Shri Mataji: In the present. No, No, when you are passive you are not in the present. When you are passive, you are in the past, when you are active, you are in the future. But when you are in the center, in the present, then you are, you are. All right.
Seeker: This being is not a static state because when the body and the abstract move with the same speed the one is static [Not Clear] prepares a new evolution.
Shri Mataji: No. You see you have evolved sufficiently enough now. You are a human being is the last word now. Now the jumping is going to be something different. Like we have got in a spacecraft, we have got containers one into another. All right. The first container blasts off and sends another one with accelerated velocity, the second blasts off and sends the third one, like that goes on till the last one. Then when the last one blasts off, the body of the spacecraft goes into the realm of no space, I mean into the realm where there is no movement, in the sense that there is no gravity, it moves by itself.
In the same way our evolution of our physical being, emotional being, mental being and spiritual being is all blasted one after another. Now at this stage, the Kundalini throws you into that space where you become aware of that power and that power starts flowing through you. It’s a different state in which you enter, it’s a different state. By standing in this state you cannot understand that state. You have to reach there, you have to become. Once you become you are amazed at yourselves. You understand My point? It is not rationally you can understand. I cannot make you understand what is there, because for supposing a dog wants to know what is a human being. How to tell him? His awareness is different, ours is different. Now our awareness when it becomes that awareness what happens, the energy starts flowing through. And you develop a new awareness, which we call as vibratory awareness by which you feel others. You start feeling others. You start feeling others. You start understanding others. You feel them on your fingers. You feel their centers, you feel your centers and the Kundalini moves with your hand movements. It’s a different state in which you have to rise. Which you approach it, like if there is a microscope, you can see through it. Without the microscope how can I explain? You become that, when you become that then only I can explain. You cannot resolve this conflict unless and until you become that. It cannot be explained through rationality. But is logical, this logic, that you are made for some purpose, once you become that one can understand. Even a child can understand if he is a realized child. And so many realized children are born these days, so many. They have a different awareness altogether. It’s a different awareness I am talking about, which is not yet being manifested. It has to manifest. Then you do not think it just works without thinking. Actually when this center opens out then you become thoughtless, there’s no thought. You actually see this thing going down. Just like a child, you get your fontanel bone depression there. You see that. Actually it happens. You can see clearly, you can feel it also. You can feel it another’s, you can see the Kundalini rising with your own eyes, you can see with your naked eye. It is that truthful. All right. By thinking you cannot rise. By making parallel this thing you cannot know. Let us resolve it. Why not? All right? Just open yourself little bit. It will workout. Just open yourself.
Sahaja Yogi: Should we tell them to take out their shoes?
Shri Mataji: I think we have to take out our shoes, because this Mother Earth helps us. You see Earth is one [of ?] the elements within us. The elements, when they go little bit here and there, you see we have a problem. Just take out the shoes and touch the ground.
Now as I told you the centers are here. They are to be enlightened. You have to just put your hands towards Me like this. Just like this and close your eyes. It will work out in a split of a second. Do not think about it. Just your thought will stop itself. Keep yourself open and in awaiting state, just expect it to happen. It will happen. As you are just there, you have reached proper conclusion that you have to be. That is the right conclusion you have reached through your thinking. Please close your eyes.
Just close your eyes. Closing eyes are necessary because when the Kundalini rises there is dilatation of the pupil and She won’t rise if your eyes are open. It’s just the opposite of mesmerism. First you will become thoughtlessly aware. Left heart.
Now you have to forgive. First of all forgive everyone. You have to forgive everyone because it’s a myth, it’s a myth that you do not forgive, so please forgive. Just say “Mother we forgive, we forgive”. Forgiveness is a myth and we should not be identified with a myth. Close your eyes please. Just for a while close your eyes. For a while, please close them properly. Just close them otherwise, Kundalini won’t rise. See after a second point, please close.
[That is your seat, please] just see, just see them, chakras they are catching, please all of you, you can see. Yes, you can see them.
Please keep your eyes shut. These people will tell Me what are the centers you are catching individually. It will work out. His left is very, very week. Keep your eyes shut, all of you. Fully shut. Relaxed way, just relax, it is going to work out. She has got it. You have to ask for forgiveness and then you have to say that, ‘I have not paid so much attention to my spirit.’ You have to ask for forgiveness from God that, ‘Spirit is the main thing I should have sought. I should have sought the spirit and nothing else but the spirit. So please forgive me.’ You have to believe in God who is your father, who is your protector, who looks after you, you don’t have to have any fears about Him. He is going to look after you. Just ask for His forgiveness.
[Shri Mataji says something probably guiding how to work etc, may be but not clear/audible, Mahat Ahankara Sakshat mantra recited by Shri Mataji]
“Om twameva sakshat, Mahat Ahankara Sakshat”
She has got it. She has got it. Athais [name of Yogi] what do you say? Right heart? [Conversation with some yogis] Ask to him about his father. No, Right heart. She has got it. Leave it. She has got it. Let her enjoy herself. May God bless you.
[CONVERSATION OF MOTHER AND YOGIS NOT CLEAR]
Ask him to ask for self-realization, Mother. Just ask him. It will work out.
[CONVERSATION OF MOTHER AND YOGIS NOT CLEAR]
Just leave it. Hot is coming. Hot is coming. [Inaudible voices of Mother etc.,] Let it come out. What do you say Mathais [Mathews ??]? Still? Ask him about his father. What do you say? Left heart. What about him? It will work. Just close your eyes. It will work. Hot? Cool? He has got it. He has got it. He is all right. Now, for him, he should say ‘Nirmalavidya’, for him, ‘Nirmalavidya’.
[Yogi says to Mother that eyes are flickering]
Shri Mataji: Eyes are flickering? Ask him to keep his eyes open. And not to think. Just watch Me. Ask him to do like that still. Did he go to some guru?
Sahaja Yogi: Swami Onkarananda, he is the one who has got forty [or fourteen?] years jail Mother.
Shri Mataji: Ask him to ask the question of a guru. He will be all right. Just ask a question. It will work out. It will neutralize. Again. Again.
Seeker: Mother! Are you my Guru?
Shri Mataji: Again.
Seeker: Mother! Are you my Guru?
Shri Mataji: Again.
Seeker: Mother! Are you my Guru?
Shri Mataji: Mathias[Mathews ??]? Passes into Vishudhi, void and Nabhi. [MOTHER WORKING OUT] Aham Sakshat Adi Guru, Aham sakshat, Guru Mata Sakshat.
All right. Close your eyes now. Let’s see. Let’s see if the flickering stops. You got it very well. Tell him how to, help him. Call him. He is all right. He has got it. Ah! You joined us. He has got it.
Yogi: He is the second son he comes.
Shri Mataji: Aah, that’s how.
Yogi: He was in this room.
Shri Mataji: He has got it. She has got it too. What about him? Heat is coming up. Cool na? Hot still? Ask him to put his left hand on his stomach on the liver. Left hand. Liver, yes. What about this lady? Are you feeling any cool breeze? What’s she saying? [Conservation of yogi with the lady]. Heavy, are you feeling heavy?
Seeker: Only my ring finger.
Shri Mataji: Are heavy, both the, both the fingers are heavy? Both the fingers? All right. Just a minute. You believe in Christ? Then? You have to believe in Him. Why? He crucified himself. Why don’t you believe in Him? He is the one who is angry. Both the centers of Agnya. You just say, ‘Mother I believe in Him.’ It will work out. All right? Without him nothing can work out, impossible.
[Conversation of Sahaja Yogi with lady goes on]
Sahaja Yogi: Because I tell you why?
Shri Mataji: The center is here.
Sahaja Yogi: Because it will open your Agnya chakra for your sake not for His sake. You have to gain not Him, so you have to say.
Shri Mataji: You have to believe in Him, because He is there. You cannot deny Him. That’s why you are catching both the centers. These are obvious centers. How did I know that you don’t believe in Christ? All right. Because here is the center catching. How did I know that he has a guru? You have to believe in Him. How could you deny? You cannot. He is the Spirit. All right. Ask a question. Mother, is Christ the Spirit? Ask the question. Just ask the question.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, is Christ the Spirit?
Lady: Mother, is Christ the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: Again. Put the hands like this and ask the question, with your heart. Ask the question again.
Lady: Mother, is Christ the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: Again.
Lady: Mother, is Christ the Spirit? Mother, is Christ the Spirit?
[Conversation of Sahaja Yogi with lady continues]
Shri Mataji: Now, heaviness is there? Close your eyes. Close your eyes. You started feeling it now. Close your eyes. Now you say, He is the Spirit. Just say that and it will establish. Very badly catching on the Agnya. Just tell Him. You have to say now. He is the Spirit. You are feeling the cool breeze a little bit. Now say, after experiencing, Aah?
Sahaja Yogi: [not clear] She says she feels cold.
Shri Mataji: All right. Tell her to ask for the Holy Ghost.
Sahaja Yogi: Just ask, “Mother, are you the Holy Ghost?” Ask, just ask, don’t think about it, “Mother! Are you the Holy Ghost?”
Lady: Mother! Are you the Holy Ghost?
[Shri Mataji works out the lady with some mantras]
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi