Public Program Workshop. Sydney (Australia), 29 March 1981.

Modi must have told you very clearly about how to grow in Sahaja Yog because he’s one of them who has really taken very positive step to see that he grows. Now one has to understand one simple point about realisation is that, just mere awakening of the Kundalini is not sufficient, that’s just the beginning. You get your realisation but you must become the tree, you have to grow, you have to become. If you cannot grow then you have not achieved what you wanted to be. And you grow very fast, very fast with meditation and with understanding about meditation. Now one of the few hurdles that we have, that I’ve seen it, that are innately built in Sahaja Yoga itself. One of them is that you get it spontaneously so easily that you take it for granted. This is in the pattern of it, only innately built. You see what ever you get so easily you just take it for granted. But the another side of it is like that, that when you have your eyes you don’t know the value of your eyes, you take it for granted. But when you don’t have them then you know the value of eyes, it’s like that. So when you lose vibrations and when you get out of Sahaja Yog, then you start feeling much more lost and then you come back to Sahaja Yoga again. Like a person becomes rich, he enjoys the riches and then you make him poor then he feels it more. So this is the correcting point.

But it is very true that Sahaja has this thing innately built in its self that it all happens very spontaneously and you get it for doing nothing at all. So, may be so many of you may lose it because you might find that it is just you got it because of something. I’ve also known of people they get vibrations and they say, “Now it’s all right I don’t need Sahaja Yoga, I am on my own.” Again they’re back like bad pennies with some troubles and some problems and then they go out. Now I would say that Modi is one of those first twelve people who got realisation, after two years I’ve worked on them, while you got realisation in such a short time. Two years I’ve worked on twenty five people out of which twelve got realisation you can imagine, two years! As I’ve told you in London I’ve worked on six people for four years to give them realisation. But once a certain number of people of particular ideologies of permutations and combinations, once they get realisation I find the rate of realisation increases very fast. Like formally we never use to have anybody in the program who has been to any other guru, just avoid them. Even up to the point that this Modi himself used to tell people there’s no program today, no program. And they would ring Me up and find out that there was a program and why they were not allowed.

They said “Mother we get headaches you see. They break our necks and they just disturb us and they are good for nothing.”

But now, it’s very different. Once we have built up our strength of collectivity we have so many channels, things are working out very differently. So the value that Modi would attach to his realisation is much more than you would attach normally. Because as you see, first even say to have a ordinary oil lamp was a problem. So the oil lamp was very important for people. They would see to it that they would not use out all the oil and they were so careful. But today we have no problem, we have got electricity we take it for granted. Only when the electricity goes off we know what is electricity is. In the same way your realisation also, when it is lost you understand the value of it. But supposing you have just touched it and then you lose it, then you do not understand. But if you’ve got it you’ve enjoyed it then you lose it then you want it back again, so best thing is to be steadily moving towards your evolution. Now after I go away that’s the fears people have here that people start doubting. They said, “It happened with people they started doubting.”

Doubting what? Your doubting yourself is the main point is. You cannot believe that you can get realisation. This is the basic. You see to Me, it seems that you feel that how can you get realisation? Only those who are very highly realised souls know that you are realised, they know that you have been given realisation, but they also sometimes ask Me, “Why did you give them realisation. What have they done?” Because you also think hat, I mean we still have to look forward to something else. How can we get realisation, this is the trouble.

You don’t believe in yourself. That’s what you have to have confidence in yourself and then you’ll have confidence in Me also. Because there are so many ways, by which you can verify. First of all you can ask questions to the photograph or to Me in your heart, about Myself, My relationship what ever you think could be, what ever you think, put your imagination and see that what you think I could have been. Ask that question. Your vibrations will answer. Put your, stretch your imagination to the last, what could be the last word you could think of Me. You see, some people will put doubts saying that, “Kundalini awakening is very difficult, it is not easy.”

Yes it’s true, it’s not easy, it’s a very difficult thing  for human beings. You just can’t do it, is a fact. You have to work for days with some guru in some jungle, all alone, seeing nobody, working out your chakras by chakras, sometimes you have to starve, sometimes you have to eat, sometimes you have to breathe, you have to do all kinds of things. And then the guru can work out. But there could be someone who is somehow the master, could be someone. Kundalini is the Holy Ghost within you. So there could be someone like that who can do the job and that is what it is. These things put you into doubts, because you can’t believe it.

In relation to yourself you can’t believe it. You can believe in God, you can believe in Holy Ghost, you can believe in Christ but you cannot believe that it has any relationship with you, that you could be that great, that you could get your realisation. So just feel it and enjoy it. First of all, don’t think, that’s why I say, “Don’t think.” Because as soon as you start thinking, Mr. Thomas in you will get up and say that “Hello, this cannot be Self-realisation.” Mr. Thomas was great, you see. Christ had all the disciples and I find all those types around, permutations and combinations and some how Judas also, but they’re rarely to be found. But there are, no doubt and some are Thomas’s, and these Thomas’ are described as murmuring souls by Christ Himself. He said, “These are murmuring souls,” and they murmur and one murmuring soul comes to you, another murmuring soul in you joins hands and you start all murmuring together, start thinking. Now at that time what have you to do on rational grounds is very simple. What have I done so far? I’ve done everything, did I get cool breeze? Did I get my self realisation? Did I feel my own powers? Have I been able to feel myself and others? Because you see your still not fully realised, you may not be able to feel the vibrations of another person, neither you will be able to feel your own vibrations. But there are so many people here who are realised and they can feel yours, and they can verify.

Supposing they ask you, “How is your father?”

There was one gentleman in England he came and told Me, “Why is everybody asking me about my father?”

I said, “Because there’s one particular centre that’s catching,” and I called a child I said now tell Me, “What is the centre catching?” She pointed out this one and I said, “This is the centre.” Everybody is catching on this centre, this is the father centre so they’re asking you about your father.

He said, “Yes he’s dead and he died of cancer and he had this and that,” and we had to treat him.

For example, anorexia is a disease can be cured by curing this centre. It’s such a deep knowledge and it is such an all pervading knowledge. Because once you know in a tree the sap that goes to all the leaves and all the ends of it and if you can move the sap, your attention can move with the sap, you can know the whole of the tree. You cannot know leaves and then know the tree. How many leaves can you count? But to know the tree the best thing is to get to the sap. To treat a tree is best is to get to its sap, isn’t it? In the same way when you go from inside out then you find that you know yourself and others very well. It’s very simple even small children can do it.

So the first doubt comes about yourself, “Oh this is one of them” because there’s a guru shopping going on, you see. There’s a guru shopping, there’s a float, you go to one guru to another, to ESPs and what you call them, all sorts of things, mediums, and all sorts of things they do with the dead bodies or anything. All these things you have been to and you will have found it. So now suddenly you have to come to a temple, where you don’t pay anything and you just get the blessings. So can’t believe it, you just can’t believe it, it’s too much to believe. This is what happens you get

confused. You are all ready confused, but confusion could be over by understanding that something is happening to you just wait and see, give it a chance. There’s no way we can bind you to Sahaja Yoga, because there’s no mesmerism here. This is another innately a problem with Sahaja Yoga.

Second problem I should say is that you’re too free to do what you like, absolutely free, there’s no binding force except that you feel the love of your Mother. Supposing you are not feeling the vibrations in your hand, there’s no way of binding you down to Sahaja Yog, nothing. We just advise “Go ahead, it will work out, let it work out.” There is no fees, there’s no registration, there’s no compulsion, nothing. It’s your own free will. If you want to stick on you can stick on, if you want to go away you can go away. There’s no force on you of any kind. There’s no registration of your names with some fees or anything, I mean you are not bound to pay anything. If you paid something then you feel, “All right I’ve paid for it, so go through it what ever it is, good or bad.. Supposing you go to see a play and it’s a horrid play but still you say, “All right I’ve paid for it so let me go through it.” But that you cannot do with Sahaja Yoga because you’ve not paid. There’s nobody will force you down, nobody will go on telephoning to you, “Come along, please come along,” and all that.

So the attitude has to be changed, it is I who has to gain. Say there’s a beautiful spot somewhere. Now that beautiful spot doesn’t send an invitation card to anyone, everybody goes there. But if you have not yet discovered the beauty of Sahaja Yog in that way and have not enjoyed it fully, you’ll have to go again and again and see for yourself. It is a deliberation on your side not on the side of the Sahaja Yogis or Sahaja Yoga. It’s not going to fall at your feet. That please come to Sahaja Yoga, please donate something, nothing of the kind. If you come you are welcome, if you don’t come, welcome. On the contrary, you will be surprised there’s more rejection than acceptance in Sahaja Yoga. That’s also innately built. I’ve seen some people who are very insincere type they just go out from Sahaja Yoga like a tangent.

There was a gentleman who was very troublesome to us in Bombay and we didn’t know what to do with him and he just got transferred from there and we got rid of him. So you just go out of Sahaja Yoga like a tangent and we are saved from the botheration. Because you must understand, if you have problems, if you are not all right it’s a problem for Sahaja Yogis to correct you. It’s just the other way round, if you understand this, then you will understand the thing, what works out. For example if I have to cure somebody it’s a problem for Me and not the problem for the person who’s sick. Now if the tree has to grow is the problem for the gardener not for the tree. So the tree must see to it that it co-operates with the gardener and gets itself developed. If this understanding is developed, that it is I who has to gain, it is I who has to go forward, Mother has not to gain from me anything, She wants me to have all my powers manifested. She wants me to grow through it, if this attitude is developed then you’ll work hard to grow and you’ll work it out. But on the contrary you see at the slightest protest if you ego stands up and says, “Why, why should I do this?”

To overcome this hurdle you see, we have to build up certain stages. That’s what Modi was telling Me. That you first become thoughtlessly aware, see that silence is established. There are certain things that you do much later, everybody is not allowed in there, because truth can be only born by people who are strong enough to bear it. That’s why I’m not going to tell you who am I, till you reach a certain stage, because you cannot bear the light. That’s what happened with Christ. They crucified Him because they could not bear Him. Human beings are like that, they can’t even bear an incarnation of love. They can’t even bear love, it’s too much for them. Even if you give them too much love they get upset, they get disturbed, they just can’t bear it.

So you have to build up yourself to come to a certain stage of understanding of Sahaja Yoga. It’s a state, which you achieve. It’s a state. You are not to be certified by anyone on the…But it’s a state where you will start giving realisation to others and the whole way you’ll be talking you will be in a very different manner as if you are completely detached. You’ll say “It is going, it is coming.” It happens. You will not say my mother must get, my father must get, you will never say like that. Because you’ll understand that the problem of Sahaja Yoga is that it cannot give to anyone.

Like the sunshine can shine it is for the trees to expose themselves to the sunshine and get the advantage of it. The sunshine is not going to run after you all over to see that you get it. This is the point here, it will shine the whole day and you take it. But it’s not that it will run after you all the time requesting you, “Oh please get me, oh please get me, have it, have it,” like that. And this is what one has to understand very clearly, that it is you who has to ask for it, and not anybody is going to force on you anything. On the contrary if anybody tries to say something more your ego gets like that. So try to be careful.

I am very happy to know that also, that in all the ego orientated societies I’ve seen that Sahaja Yoga works like wonders. Because first thing they see is their colossal ego. And that’s a very positive point about it, because once you start seeing this horrible balloon in you, you just start watching yourself and enjoying, “Oh Mr so and so now get along with your ego.” You see it’s a very interesting life you start leading. If your ego you see, is a very good sign. If you cannot see your ego then there’s danger. But some can even see their super ego if they’re possessed. See people see how they get possessed suddenly because the frequency of possession becomes very little so that there’s a big gaps you see to see the time when you are normal and when you get abnormal also you can see clearly that you are abnormal. By seeing that you start judging, “Oh God I have again been caught up, I’m again lost,” and you come back to normal. The whole thing becomes a very beautiful understanding of the reality about yourself and you laugh at yourself all the time. All the time you laugh at your self and you laugh at everything and you find the whole joke going round how people are seriously indulging into nonsensical things and how it’s such a big joke you’ve been yourself worrying about things which have no meaning, which has no significance.

Like I went first to Paris and people told Me, “Mother they are not going to like you very much, because they believe a person who is so happy is ignorant. You should not be a happy person. You should be a crying baby so they’ll believe You.  They’re all les miserable, very unhappy people, extremely unhappy and if you tell them you are a happy person so they are going to be shocked at such a thing.”

I said, “Really this Les Miserable, let me (inaudible). Let Me do something about them” and I made them laugh so much at their miseries that they got all right and they understood that the joy is just there. You have to just peep in your heart and you’ll find the source of your joy and then the whole thing vanishes into thin air. But it has to work, it has to happen. There is no quick way of doing it in the sense that I say, “All right, you give me five rupees or five dollars, Australian dollars and you get it.” No, no, no, no, you may give Me any amount it won’t work out. It has not worked out with My own daughters you’ll be surprised. I’ve never forced them or I’ve never asked them. I’ve only two daughters they’re not realised, I’m not bothered. When they’ll ask for it they’ll get it. But My four grandchildren are born realised.

And one of the eldest ones one day very seriously said, “As it is you cannot commit mistakes I know but it would have been nice if you have given them realisation when they were children.”

You see this is what it is that you cannot force these things on anyone and you have to take a very detached view. You are a seeker, your mother and you are there but they are not your responsibility, you can tell them about Sahaja Yoga. But if they are opposing you better have, let them be alone, they’ll come round. When they see the transformation in within you, they will definitely come. So leave them alone. Don’t bother your heads. Just leave them alone and you will be amazed that they will see you transforming so well and acting so well and they’ll change themselves and they will come to you and ask you, “How are you so much changed and transformed?” You see, proof of the pudding is in seeing the pudding up there, changing people. And this transformation, you’ll be amazed coming into you so suddenly that you will be amazed.

But as I told you, that on the left side is the desire or you can say the super ego, the desire to do something. And the right side is the ego which we try to, sort of please, and which feels happy and the one by which we have ambitions. But in the centre is the willpower to do this. And this willpower has to be increased by you, “I have to do it, I have to do it.” First you’ll feel tired because

your left heart is weak, then I will tell you how to do it. ‘Then know how to raise your left heart if you’re tired. See most of the people these days are very tired people. They talk, “Ah,” they sit down “Ah.” They can’t, I mean they are very tired, absolutely fagged out people. Morning till evening what have you been doing, nothing. Just sitting in the sun you got tired, just lazing out you got tired. Why, why did you get tired? Firstly because you’re not integrated, you are fighting with in yourself. You’re head is fighting your heart, your heart is fighting your liver. Secondly, you are thinking and wasting your energy. So you have to learn how to settle your heart, what has to be done to raise your heart to make it peaceful and how to get the energy from your spirit. Once you start doing that your tired feeling will go away. Then your aggressiveness also will decrease and you’ll be amazed that you will just watch the whole thing. Neither you’ll aggress nor you’ll take aggression and the whole reaction will be very different.

Then everything has a meaning, your feelings have a meaning. Supposing you have a feeling today for Poland, which is in trouble, all of you should ask just now, “Mother solve the problem of Poland.” Because I have no desires you see, I am desire less, you have to ask and it works, you’ll be amazed because your attention is enlightened now, it just works. You have to desire for it and it works. You have to work for it and it works. And so many miraculous things people will tell you just believe them that’s all true. Money problems solved, because of Lakshmi Tattwa within, financial problems solved, social problems solved, family problems solved, because you are solved. See in relation to you all everything seems problematic. When your problems are solved everything is solved. It’s so simple as that. We have to solve ourselves and it is solved through the awakening of the Kundalini.

Now I would like to have some questions from you and then I would like you to go into groups with the Sahaja Yogis and talk to them on intimate level and also you must tell Me your problems. If you have any intimate problems, you can talk to Me also. But best is to talk to each other.
I would like Warren to see to it that he organises all these groups properly.

But I would love to have some questions from you about Sahaja Yoga now.

Question: How can one laugh at abortion.

W: He’s talking about abortion, you are taking the view that it is bad?

Shri Mataji: I’m not saying you have to, I said you are not to laugh, means you laugh at silly stupid things I meant, you see. But at abortion as I can’t understand you see. This is a very funny situation in this country. As it is the birth rate is minus and you are having abortions.

Question: Does it exist in India much abortion

Shri Mataji: Not much, people don’t like it at all, they hate it. And you know the trouble is like this. You people are having no children so we have to have the load on us. You see what to do? Nobody to be born here, they don’t want to be born here because there is no love in the heart. See when, the other day when somebody told Me about the doctors here some of them are butchers I couldn’t believe it. Because in India at least, doctors are not butchers by any chance. I was surprised; this is because everything has become a butchery here, because the heart is covered with ego. There’s no heart left. You have to raise the heart. That’s important, once you raise the heart, you see, you cannot stand all this nonsense, you know. Why do you want to have abortion I still can’t understand?

Question: Does it affect Swadishthan charka?

Shri Mataji: Oh, it affects many chakras, I mean. There was someone I knew who always used to catch on right heart, I must tell you this, very nice person, always on right heart. His father was a good man, everything was fine, asked him, “How are you catching on right heart?” He was not married and when he came very close to Me then he confessed to Me that, “I lived with a woman and she was going to have a baby and she went in for an abortion and I conceded, and since then

I have been feeling very sad about the whole thing.” But the whole view about life has to be changed then only you can avoid these things. You see it is a symptom of a disease. It’s not the disease itself, abortion is not the disease, is a symptom of a disease.

Now what is the disease with in us is, is that, that we have allowed our sex to be let loose completely, talking too much about sex from childhood. What is the need to give education in sex, I’ve been failed to understand? Openly, there’s no need to teach about, you see, do the animals need any sex education, they still produce. Then they told Me, “They tell about sex only because they think by telling about sex they can protect people from not going into sex.”
I said, “No, they create too much of curiosity in children.”

For example, in India we never talk about sex to children, they do not know, they are so innocent. Even till the marriage takes place some of the girls do not know what sex actually is, how it works out and all. But they are told this is something filthy to do and all that and when the girl gets into puberty it is told and to the boys also, somehow or other it is a very different society. This question doesn’t come, it never comes into the head of the boys and girls. You see if you keep them pure, like it doesn’t come in the head of a sister and a brother even today, thank God. Many sisters and brothers I should say, despite Freud’s all efforts to spoil your minds, but still there are brothers and sisters’ relations today. In the same way it doesn’t come into their heads at all. And when they get married they are to be told, this is what it is. And that’s why they say these koarak and all these places were built where they could take young brides and young people to see that. This was called as Koomari Kar Temple, means the married women when they were not virgins could go there and see those places to understand what is sex is and they got so exhausted with this early sex life, I mean you go into all kinds of tantrums then. Because you’re so exhausted then you go into perversions. The basics are wrong. We are trying too hard to be sexologists. There’s no need to be sex points you are that already. But you don’t want to be only sex points, do you? I don’t know what makes you feel that that is the end of every, every endeavor, everything should end up there. May be that advertisement and all this is coming to you too much because they think that by exploiting these things they will help you. But it’s such a perverted thing and

(Seeker interrupts and asks Shri Mataji about people in India being given a gift like a transistor radio for sterilization. Does it have a purpose? It has a purpose to a point…..)

W: Oh, I’m sorry this has another point…. He is talking about in India where they give a transistor radio….

Shri Mataji: That’s what they try, this is also, you see western ideas coming to India. Oh, they did all sorts just to sterilise them. Oh! that’s how the lady lost her last election, last election she has now pulled her ears for that. You see, they are all westernised people you see, they try to try all these tricks in…. People don’t like it you see. There’s a bridegroom who went for his wedding and poor thing saw that there was a team of people standing there for sterilisation. He jumped out of the bus and he disappeared forever, nobody knows where he is, disappeared. ‘And they even sterilised people who were very old and who were not even married you see. It’s so funny, so indiscriminate, I think they were possessed by some bhoots I don’t know what to call them.

You see population is a problem in India but what to do now, you should solve the problem. And there is something working out in a very funny way, I must tell you. I went to Colombia, I found lots of these Norwegians carrying Colombian children with them. And they looked so different from Norwegian children, Norwegian people and these Colombian children.

I asked them, “Why do you acquire these children, where are you carrying them? They said “We have adopted them”.
I said, “Why don’t you produce your own? That would be better, to produce your own.” “No we don’t want to go through the process of it, it’s better to have ready made.”

So the supply has started in having all this in developing countries to give you ready made children. Isn’t if funny, it’s funny things going on, instant babies.

Question: If a chakra is blocked and you clean the chakras wouldn’t you being undoing the karmic cycle that a person has to go through?

Shri Mataji: Very good idea, Because I think you people…I know the question is this, that he is saying that if you try to clean the chakras you will be undoing the karmic cycle and all that you see this is the typical things that are being circulated in the west you see. That you have your own karmas you see and we are the gurus so you have to go through your karmas, you must suffer for your karmas you see like that is there. Now, this theory was all right before Christ came in, not after His coming. And why are they here then? Why are we paying them, for what? You better pickle them out. They’re worth nothing because they just take money from you, and we have to go through our karmas. They make you dance, jump go into all kinds of things. Put spirits in us and say, “You are suffering your karmas. Why should we suffer?” At least they should suffer for our karmas, minimum of minimum.

Now Christ has done that for you. He has taken all these karmas, your karmas upon Himself. He has made way for us, that’s why you have to pass through Him. Once you pass through Him, through Agnya chakra, your karmas are sucked in by Him, that’s your ego. It’s the only ego that says you have done this wrong, and that wrong. You see an animal doesn’t think that way. It thinks it’s it own sva bhavah the way it has to be. But it’s only the human beings who think I’ve done this wrong, I’ve done that wrong. I’ve done this good, that bad because we have ego. But when your Kundalini passes through your Agnya chakra your ego is sucked in, your superego is sucked in. Christ has done double job in one shot you know, it’s great. That’s why He was crucified, it was to be. He took all your karmas upon Himself and put it into hell. So whatever karmas you have done are all sucked in. But the door must open fully.

In the beginning it happens that only a thread comes up, you see, and the ego is not fully sucked in so sometimes it still comes up and all that. The best weapon to get rid of them is to forgive others. Forgiveness is the greatest weapon Christ has given us, which we have to use, forgive, forgive and forgive. That’s a very good way, Lords Prayer is the solution for your Agnya chakra, you’ll be amazed. You have to say Lords Prayer after realisation to open your Agnya. Then you become thoughtlessly aware. After realisation, again I say, not before realisation, it has no meaning. Before realisation what ever you have said has gone into karmas. Only after realisation you are baptized and get an opening here and all your karmas pass through that. Also you will find when you get realisation lot of heat comes out, these are the karmas you see, that are coming out. Let the heat go out and all karmas are finished. It’s like that. This is what is Self-Realisation.

Like an egg is in a egg shell, is very different, but when it becomes a little chick and the mother breaks the tip of the egg a new bird comes out without any karmas or the smell of the egg. So clean and nice, everything converted into something beautiful. It’s like that, this is the rebirth. This is how we become a new personality a new being. So to forget about your karmas after your realisation, all right. He has said it

that, “He died for your sins.” Didn’t He? And the wages of sin is fear. If you still have fear within you of your karmas, you are still sinning. There should be no fear about it.

Do not have any guilt, I’ve been telling you not to have any guilt. What can you do? What sins can you commit? Do not have any fear. This is very common as I told you the other day, left Vishuddhi, I have to talk about it quite a lot. It’s so common, in Australia, in America and in all the western countries, to feel guilty. Everything collapses there and nobody can rise through the Agnya because it collapses down here onto left Vishuddhi where you feel guilty. What are you feeling guilty about? And why did Christ come on this earth? You are just wasting His incarnation by feeling guilty yourself. He has taken all your guilt upon Himself. What do you thing He was? He was Omkara, he was Pranava, He was the word, He was that power. He’s not attached to anything but He can take away everything that you think is sin, because He’s sinless, He so pure, immaculate.

All right, does that give you some hope? Or still you are indulging into your own miseries?

Question: Can You give us some guide about diet.

Shri Mataji: Diet? All right. This diet theory is also coming from some horrible Brahmins you see. Don’t listen to them. They are the greatest rakshasas ever born on this earth. Devils, rakshasas are monsters. They eat like hell, they eat such a lot and they always tell you, “Don’t do this and don’t do that.” You can eat anything you like, except don’t eat the meat of animals which are bigger than you. I mean otherwise you will develop muscles which will have funny contours and things. Eat animals which are smaller than you, is the point is. And if you eat those animals they do not also have much sense of compassion and all that. It’s all right they are just like vegetables, sort of things, so it doesn’t matter. You don’t kill them, they are killed in the machine and all that, you have to eat that, and you need it, you have to eat. But that doesn’t mean that if you are vegetarians you should become non vegetarians. It doesn’t mean that.

Whatever you eat, you can eat. Eating is not going to change your spirit. Spirit doesn’t eat, it does not. Makes no difference to the spirit except that, to your body which is the lamp. So if you have to keep the wick all right, you have to keep the lamp all right and for that don’t eat anything that is a very big animal compared to yourself. Cows meat for example in India they don’t eat, because, “Have you ever seen Indian cows they’re very gentle.” And the cows are in the house, just like mother they start giving milk to the children they see. Every day they are taking the milk of the cows so they develop a feeling, you see. And that’s why they don’t drink, you see. But it doesn’t mean that if your Australian cows are I don’t think are like that. Because what I’ve seen they look like buffalos to Me sometimes. Like My granddaughter, she came to England and she asked Me, “Mother, Grandmother, why the buffalos in England are white?” Yes, so, it’s all right. But you’ll come down on diet. It will be different you see, you’ll see gradually. But don’t worry about it. Gradually everything drops out into very little things. But you allow yourself to develop.

Question: Eggs? And things like that?

Shri Mataji: Oh, eggs you better have, lots of it. But if you have liver it’s not good to have eggs. Eggs is very heating,  pork is otherwise good but not good for the people who have liver problem. See you must understand that every person is different. Now today I met a lady who is very left sided. So I had to tell her, “You eat pork, eggs everything. You see it is how you are. Even the Indian Ayurveda is like that. They want to know the prakruti, the character of a person how he is. We have evolved from different types of animals. I saw the nocturnal ones. You see the nocturnal ones must eat a lot of meats, those who have evolved from nocturnal side, you see. Left-sided, the ones who are afraid and frightened and who are not egoistical at all you see. Such types they should take more meats and things but those who are too much aggressive better take to vegetables, is better. All right now, what’s the question?

Question: Does forgiveness stop the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer?

Shri Mataji: It does absolutely, absolutely. Sahaja Yoga is the thing that balances the society. Those who are poor become richer and the rich understand that they must share. Willingly they start sharing their money. But you become really rich in a very miraculous manner. Now there’s a girl here and I would like her to tell you what happened to her, it’s miraculous. But she’s an Australian and she doesn’t tell lies you can see that very clearly and she’ll tell you what happened to her. Where is she gone? Cheryl come along.  Is she here?

No let her tell, is better, she’s Australian they’ll believe her more. But never trust an Indian that’s even worse. You know some of the gurus have introduced some Indian bhoots, Indian spirits into English people, and Americans and also European and I find they behave just like Indians. They’ll cheat, they embezzle, they’ll take away things, not the women, they’ll not touch the women you see. But they’ll touch the things, they take away the empty cans, is typical Indian you see. It’s rather

surprising, yes there are some, I’ve seen them like that. It’s surprising to see such things happening to a western person who behaves just like an Indian, must be some possession of bhoots put by these gurus.

So if you believe Me then I can tell you what she’s told, it’s really miraculous, very miraculous, you see. Cheryl was telling Me that she wanted to come to India and she had no money. So her daughter was very anxious to come to India and they didn’t know what to do, they didn’t have sufficient money. So they just said, “Mother we want to come to India can you arrange it for us, that’s all.” And it so happened that this girl had taken a trinket she had in the house, a bracelet to the school for a sale, whenever they have the fetes all over. So she took that for the fete and the teacher said, “I think this is gold.” She couldn’t believe it. She brought it home and they got it valued and they found that the price of the thing was equal to what they had to spend for both of them travel.  But this is nothing. And then she got some money from somewhere in the house, somewhere I don’t know how she got some money and she didn’t sell even the bracelet. And that’s still there she said, “For the next trip.” I said, “I hope so, you sell it.” “May not.” Like that you see, things work out, because your Laxshmi Tattawa, your centre of well being gets enlightened and then you are looked after.

So many things happen. Like today they told Me so many things of this kind happening to them and I too. You see when these people came in, I had told them all right, you give Me so much money may be required for your stay there. Very little it was, very little for them to be there in India after all, you see India is also now becoming very expensive. And when I went to India I had discovered it had become very expensive, doesn’t matter I said, “I’ll put it in the bank. “Let it be there.” And anybody ask Me, “Have it, you want it, have it, now spend go,” and it was all right. I could manage, see that’s what he did, and so many of them have done it. It’s looked after. You go to right places, you get right things, don’t spend too much, you do not repent for spending and you feel happy for whatever you have. You feel very joyous, not worried about counting but if you make a budget you had it. You don’t worry your head about budgeting, how much you’re going to spend, you’ll be surprised. You won’t go to things which are unnecessary, useless but you’ll buy something that is very good and ultimately these things will be very precious for you to sell. Many things have happened like that. Many things have happened.

Question: Why is Australia important for the future?

W: Maybe about Shri Ganesha?

Shri Mataji: Only thing I don’t want to pamper the ego.

Question: Is Australia blessed?

Shri Mataji: Very much, very much blessed. It’s a very much blessed place, specially created. Australia was the first continent to be created and if I dare to answer this question, I hope you’ll believe Me and not get into ego trips. Australia is a place which is described in the ancient Puranas that a great saint was sent to Australia and another heaven was created. And that saint is called as Thrishanku which is your Southern Cross…what do you call that? That shows the Southern Cross and you can only see Southern Cross from Australia. This is one of the Puranas, the Vedas have also mentioned this  and even before that Australia is the place which has the Ganesha. The first is the Mooladhara Chakra, the first centre is in Australia. How much wise you should be. Did you hear Me?

W:  (Question) She wanted your opinion about the Australian aboriginals.

Shri Mataji: Oh, they must have been good people to begin with, I am sure of it. They must have been very good and holy people and nice people but I think later on they deviated because of too much jungles and things you know, they started feeling the fear of the nature too much. They must have worshiped things, which were good to begin with and later on to some things like spirits and this. More over the dead bodies, the way they disposed of must have been something wrong. So maybe they might have gone into a left sided action, into primitive ways of exciting these bhoots

and things, spirits and spiritualism and all that. But in Australia must be the minimum, in Africa is horrible.

African countries have too much of it but it should be the minimum of minimum because you see, Ganesha’s chakra is connected with the left side, you see is more on the left side, isn’t it? So also one can go drift more on to the left side, that is what it is. And even today I feel there’s kind of a lurking inferiority complex that works in Australians. They try to copy the west, there’s nothing to copy there, they’ve nothing sensible. They have to learn from you. You see this is a little inferiority complex we have that all the best things are in the west. That’s wrong, you are much better of in so many ways. At least you’ve not lost your moorings. So I would not pass a general remark about any community as such but there is a possibility that they can come up very well too. I mean they can get out of all that left-sidedness.

In India also we have big communities in the south where people have lived with too much ritualism and all that and have taken to left-sided behaviour of attracting you know spirits and this and that, and giving those [telesmart?] and all that. They have done all that they are doing, like witchcraft, witch doctors and all that. They must be doing it, but it can be cured, there’s no problem. As the west, people are over developed and very ego orientated and right side. Both are extreme cases, but you can  correct. The people who are left side it’s easier because they have to move forward but it’s difficult for ego orientated to move backwards. But if we can do that there why not here, so nothing is lost. One should not worry too much about these things. Human begins are just the same, everybody has Kundalini, finished. As long as you have Kundalini I have no problem.

Question: Is there anything wrong with eating chilies?

Shri Mataji: No, it suits some people very much. Some people should have, those who suffer from colds will be a good idea, suffer from constipation is a good idea. But don’t eat too much of anything. But it’s good for some people, something is good for some people, something is good for some people, you have to just find out. For people who get constipated it is better to have a little of green chilies all the time, it is very rich in vitamin C. It is very rich in vitamin C is good for people who catch colds very easily.

Question: Do you know anything about the teaching called Mahikari.

Shri Mataji: I know. You see Mahikari thing was, the person who started Mahikari was a realised soul, though not so well equipped. I’ve met him before his realisation and he got realisation I think through Me only, what ever it was. I do not want to claim anything like that. But only thing is he was not equipped, well equipped. Like anybody here who gets realisation starts doing something. And his daughter I think, mislead the people because she’s not a realised soul. She became very money-orientated, she started putting it, it’s happened with every one of them. But poor thing, this one was not, he just got realisation he was not an incarnation also, you see.

Even incarnations who came on this earth like Christ you see, like Mohammad Sahab, like Rama, Krishna see such great incarnations were purest of pure. Even those people have been mishandled and people have raised organisations, which are just money making propositions. Everything some how man makes into money. I don’t know how, it’s something that happens to human beings you see. Then they start giving [Telesmart?] then they start giving this, that, cross, this I mean it’s a money-making proposition throughout. You see this is the trouble.

Warren: She said you are very right.

Shri Mataji: And you may lose lots of your powers, even ordinary, normal powers with this kind of a wrong attitude you see, or misguidance, because it happens like that, you can make mistakes, you can do so many things. You know I’ve seen people, one girl whom I had given realisation she went to a lady who was a medium. She used to get “Ho, ho, ho, ho,” like that, and this thing. And she

gave her a talisman and she became actually blind, actually blind. Now she’s blind, her eyes are open, I mean I have to still cure her. This is the report I got about her.

Question: Would you say the same of the Hari Krishna Organisation?

Shri Mataji: Oh, now you are pulling Me into controversy. But I will tell you the other way round. You see if you go on calling say the name of anybody, even your name would you like it? So then how can God like it? On the Oxford Street you stand up, you should see the site, they even sell those things see like wigs, they sell them like wigs in the market. They shave off and sometimes they wear wigs. See it’s not show, it is something that has to happen within. It’s not the show that you put up is something that has to happen. You see most of them end up with throat cancer and very violent, very violent people. They are beggars, absolute parasites.

Warren: (Jaguars) with expensive cars.

Shri Mataji: You see this is very nice,
I met somebody in England and I told him, “What do you do here?” He said, “I deal in opium.” I got a fright.
I said, “Opium, how do you deal in opium?”
“Other people’s money,”
I said, “That’s very good, other people’s money.”

You see you can float an enterprise. It’s very easy because you are such seekers such great seekers of ages and you are so naïve, very good. You go anywhere they’ll take a square, sit there with saffron cloths with some circles on, another fellow will be fanning. Oh this one is very great, coming direct from Kashi. Then have nothing to do with horrible people. Kashi is one of the worst places now. So you all go and prostrate. This is what it is. I mean, why are you enamoured by these circuses, aren’t you fed up with them?

We had a lady from Norway, this one was very interesting. She came to My house, stayed with Me, very badly caught up, and she told Me the story of a lama who came to Norway.

First he told all these Norwegians, “You see, if I have to come to Norway you have to make a place with the floor which has got all marble.”

Look at that. They’re such parasites these Lamas are. First they have sucked the blood of these poor Tibetans and now they were willing to suck the blood of these Norwegians. Now these poor young people you see, I should say the young people in the west are really not rich because they’re parents do not give them money the way we give our children you see. So they starve themselves, they ate only potatoes and this and that and for one year they starved themselves to create this floor for these horrible people. And this fellow came you see, with his shaved head and all that. He stayed there and this lady told Me that she had to go and just bow to him one thousand times for three months. One thousand times. Imagine, just to go, as it is he’ll be finished, even three times is sufficient to finish you off. And three months she did it. And with Me she was arguing morning till evening.

I said, “Look at that, her arguing with Me, eating My head off and here you’re bowing to him.” They would not allow anybody to go near the lama, the great was sitting on the seventh step somewhere hanging in the air. Is very common you know, the more you are missing from the scene the more you are difficult to be seen you see. Is something great, “Oh, ho! I’ve seen the glimpse of that

horrible thing,” that’s what people think. You see this is what they play upon you emotional, what you call it emotional blackmail. That’s what it is.

They will tell you first of all they’re, we call them chumchars, we call them spoons. They’ll come and tell you, “Oh this is very difficult, you know. He may not give you any interview, and you have to at least you should shell out five hundred rupees, see it is not easy, it’s very difficult. Only you should send your photograph with five hundred,” all this nonsense. If you are the river Ganges, what can malign you, what can dirty you, what can make you impure? If you are here for purification then nothing can impure you. One two three four, now the one who has not asked at all should ask.

Question: Over the years it seems we have lost our power to believe in ourself that we had in Egyptian times the power to believe in ourselves but we went wrong…

Warren: the question is concerning the loss of power within ourselves, perhaps back in the days of Egypt we had these powers, we seem to have lost our power to believe in ourself.

Shri Mataji: I don’t know even if at that time you had those powers very much. But Egyptians indulged more on the ego side you see, those who were rulers. And the slaves were on the left hand side too much because they obeyed the rulers you see. So the sensitivity came to them from spirits, not directly from themselves. And some of them were really, very realised souls and you’ll be amazed if these extreme cases are there, they understand an incarnation better.

Say if you are taking LSD too much, you will see only lights coming out of Me, you won’t see Me. There are many who must have seen that, auras and things, if you are on the right hand side too much. If you are on the left had side you’ll be awed, you’ll be shaking before Me and you may see My previous births and you’ll be quite frightened because you’ll know what it is. So they understood the incarnations better, but evolutionary you are much higher than they are. Though there’s confusion because of so called freedom you had which you misused. But as a whole I think this is the time for blossom. Only thing you must know that you’re a seeker and you are a seeker then you must get it and if you get it why should you be surprised. But it’s like a seeking has become like a fashion, seeking here, seeking there seeking there, seeking you stop nowhere you see. You see you go on fixing the bolts you see, you’re just going with an inertia, even if you stop fixing you still go on like that. It’s like that, you see, it’s a style you have developed going from this to that, that to that, that to that and you cannot stop it.

Question: I’d be interested in Your opinion of philosophy for Rudolf Steiner and secondly your concept of Papa tax sungar in India.

All these are all people playing on bhoots and things, that’s all I can say.

(Shri Mother asks the seeker what does Steiner say and he says million words.)

Word, words, words and words, what does he say?  Might be a realised soul but what does he say?

(Seekers tries to tell Shri Mataji what he writes about.)

He might be a realised soul like Khalil Gibran is, you see his vibrations are good. He might be, but still you have to become realised souls you see. Reading that even Zen is all that. Zen is everything is, nothing but his realisation. But you’ll be amazed that the head of Zen himself reads all Zen without being realised, and he’s a hopeless fellow.

I just talked to him and he said, “Oh, he cannot get realisation.”

He’s confirmed on that point. Imagine the head of the Zen saying that, and he said we had kashapas only twenty six kashapas we had in six centuries can you believe it. And he wouldn’t take his realisation and he was so frightened.

He accepted Me all right but he said, “I am nowhere, Mother, compared to You.” “What is this? But I am telling you can get.”

Warren: Steiner catches on Agnya and Swadishthan.

Shri Mataji: So it’s good to read somebody who is a realised soul, but you better get it yourself. You become Steiner, all right. What I’m saying, you become a realised soul. And you can write about your own experiences. Yes, please.

Question: Seeker asks about opinion of Dadaji.

Shri Mataji: Dadaji, he’s arrested.

Warren: In Calcutta

Shri Mataji: He’s already in jail. No, he was in Pune where he was arrested, this Dadaji. This happened about I think, I don’t know, but I heard about it. I don’t know when it happened. No it was not because of any political thing. But they found some income tax things and all that and lots of, I don’t know, I didn’t pay much attention, but he’s arrested that I know. There are these sorts of things but the best part of the thing is that all that is untruth is exposed, gradually. Whatever things they may put out, whatever story they may put out, whatever they may try, they may entice you, you may be interested in them whatever it is. But they themselves meet their end. Because all that is falsehood has an end and truth is endless, it is anand, it is eternal. The truth is eternal.

Question: What do you see as the future of the United Nations?

Shri Mataji: That’s a tricky question. My husband is one of the secretary generals. I better not speak all right. Let it be. We’ll see about it, work it out. Some tricks we have to play.

Question: Do you know of Krishnamurti?

Shri Mataji: Oh, very much, he’s another one. Krishnamurti is another blah, blah, blah. I’ll tell you about Krishnamurti very well. You see what Krishnamurti does? He says this part what I say that “There are false gurus.” But I don’t say there are not real ones. If there is falsehood, if there’s artificiality, there has to be real. If there are artificial flowers there has to be a real flower, too. So he negates you from the other side completely and he puts up your ego by saying, “Oh you can find it,” so you are finished. He’s a blind leading others into blindness.

( A seeker relates  his meeting with Krishnamurti to Shri Mataji. He saw him personally asks him “why do you do what you do” and Krishnamurti said, “Does a rose ask why?”)

Shri Mataji: I mean it has no awareness, simple answer is as that. A rose has no awareness. By any chance he’s not a rose. he’s just thorns that’s what I know. Those who have come from him have had a very bad time I must tell you. You see they are really so depressed and so horrid. We had one architect; I mean his life was finished. So many of them I’ve met, horrible they’re very argumentative.

The best example I’ll give you about this because you’ve brought forth. There was a fellow who came to see Me, he’s the grandson of his guru. His guru was Yogananda, Yogananda, the Kriya yogis, you see. He was the grandson of the Dadaji or something, Babaji, called Dadaji then Babaji

are there. This Babaji, his grandson, you see, his Yogananda’s guru was somebody else, and he was the son of this fellow, but I mean the grandson of his guru, so the great grandson of Babaji. So the whole family was Kriya and he did all the Kriya Yoga and everything he did. He went there and he got so frightened. One day he happened to see this Krishnamurti that there should be no he said, “No Kriya and all that, you see, that you are your own guru,” and this and that.”

So he said, “Oh God, what have I been doing?”
So he gave up Kriya Yoga and came to Mr. Krishnamurti.
He said, “I became such an expert that I spoke better than Krishnamurti did.”
And everybody was surprised and said, “Second Krishnamurti is coming and I ran away from there. I said, “Now this is that thing is happening to Me.”

And he came to Me, you’ll be amazed I’ve not been able to give him realisation till today. I must tell you this, he comes to Me still often. Often, very often he comes to Me. I’ve not yet given him realisation. Imagine the grandson of this Babaji has to bear I don’t know what things, poor things has been done to him, I ‘m very sorry for him.

Question: Do you know Rajneesh?

Shri Mataji: He’s another horrible one. Why do you need a guru for such a thing? You are masters. He’s a fool, he doesn’t know compared to what you know. But you see what you thought of, that inside you are human beings, you feel guilty that you talk of sex with animals, sex with this, this, that. If there’s something lurking in you, there’s something wrong in all this perversion and homosexuality this that and all that. So you thought it better to have a guru at least he’ll certify. But he is going to make you take two running jumps to go to hell, I tell you. And he talks, just there and he talks, “That you’ll go to bottomless pit,” in the bible a bottomless pit is the hell. You see he’s very honest in a way, he says so.

He said, “You’ll go to bottomless pit.”

He has criticised Christ to such an extent that he said that Christ had bad relations with his own Mother. Oh to that extent, he said about Mohammad having bad relation with his daughter. All sorts of things he is talking and you know people publish it. He’s getting such a publicity. He pays money to people that they write against Me and doing all kinds of things. Indians don’t like him at all, at all, they hate him, they want him to get out but he’s so localised he cannot smell a flower and he calls himself Bhagavan, means God. In the book you see, anywhere you read, any Indian book where they have described God, the names of God, they’re thousand names supposing, of Vishnu or of the Goddess, anything. At least fifteen or twenty of them are that they are fond of flowers, they’re fond of fragrance, they’re fragrant. That they’re fond of Kamalas, Champas they’re fond this that all is there and this fellow cannot see, if you show a flower to him he’ll run away. He cannot bear to have any incense being burnt anywhere. When you go there you they see and you can only put phenyl to go and see him. I think he’s a bathroom cleaner, that’s what he is. The way he’s so much afraid. I don’t know what he likes the bathroom smell. And he does all dirty things, very dirty fellow, is filthy I don’t want to tell you what he does but I know what he does.

Question: Could you explain the meaning of satoori and samadhi.

Shri Mataji: That’s Zen. You see, Zen satoori is the same as samadhi but it’s a, you see the Zen were as I told you in six centuries were twenty-six and whatever they wrote people never understood you see. Because they were realised souls, some of them were born realised, some got realisation. Now even when you will talk people won’t understand you, it’s a very surprise thing. But it happens like that because your language changes. Now they call it satoori is a samadhi but

it’s not so clearly given, they could not explain so clearly about it not properly to people, it’s not so clear cut.

Now in our Sahaja Yoga we have first of all Nirvichara samadhi. Samadhi, dhi means awareness, and samadhi means enlightened awareness. Nirvichara means thoughtless. Thoughtless enlightened awareness is first thing, is clear. Sahaja Yoga is very clear cut practical, every word of it. You see it so clearly there’s no vagueness about it. Even you’ll understand Bible better, Zen better, everything better if you know Sahaja Yoga because your eyes are open to it, all right. So the first thing is Nirvichara Samadhi. With Nirvichara Samadhi when it crosses your Agnya chakra you get Nirvichara, means when your ego is pulled down. With that you get powers. Like you see if you become a deputy governor you get powers if you become a governor you get powers. The first powers you get is curative powers. You get cured and you can cure others.

Many people whom I have cured are not Sahaja yogis, they’re useless people actually. I’ve given up curing people for the same reason because they just come for cures, they get cured and lost. What’s the use of curing people who are not going to give the light? You see you don’t repair lights which are not going to work out. It’s a horrible stuff you see, curing people, but you do cure. You start curing people automatically with raising [sounds like das?] not with spirit. There are another faith healers and all that nonsense is not there.

Also Kundalini can rise to a point with a person like that. But one should not stay at that point must go higher. Because the movement on right and left you start getting either supra conscious or your subconscious experiences which can be very alluring and you can be quite lost in them. You start seeing lights, you start seeing something different, you might see an aura around Me. I mean you see lots of things, you may see something else in My past , that should not be there. You should forget about it. You have to go to the airport to catch the plane isn’t it, so don’t see all the things around, it’s all not wanted.

Many people get lost at that point when they stop at Agnya, if you have concentrated here this can happen more because this is broken or if you have had this third eye business and all that you may go to the side. It can be quite dangerous. You see if you use these your samadhi for some sort of a sensation. So you should not. I mean all wise people should not use this movement at all, as far as possible say, “No we don’t want to see that. We don’t want to have any supra conscious sensation,” and all that. Then you rise higher and then you try to feel your silence in the limbic area and you have to feel your vibrations coming out from your head. It is the vibrations when they are flowing that’s the best stage, when you have pierced through your Brahmarandra.

So the second stage starts from Nirvikalpa Samadhi growing into, which many of the Sahaja Yogis have achieved in Australia, is called as Nirvikalpa, where the is no doubts. You have no doubts left about Sahaja Yoga, you have no doubts left about yourself. It’s a state, it’s not that by mentally or rationally but it’s a state. Where you see it so clearly, white is white, you don’t have to doubt that whether my eyes are showing white or black, you see. That state is reached is called as Nirvikalpa where the no vikalpa, you just go, move steadily and that’s the best stage where you really grow faster because you’re so steady and that stage must be achieved.

So try to achieve that stage through negating things, “Nethi, nethi, vachinay nigamoor,” by saying, “Not this, not this, not this,” and you reach that stage, is very clearly given. You see the trouble is, so many of these books which are so great are never translated, people do not know about them. Now after coming to Sahaja Yoga you will be exposed to them and you will see what truths there are and how Sahaja Yoga verifies it and proves it.

Question: What influence are you likely to have on   people who live with You who are not realised. What is the realised souls influence in that type of environment?

Shri Mataji: You see if you have stones and if you have living trees, stones do not receive anything from the sun but the leaves receive something, isn’t it, they are more sensitive, that’s the difference.

Then in Sahaja yoga there’s a possibility that you can convert stones into living beings, can be done. Yes, because they see, you see they see you, they understand the value that you are, gradually, rationally they start understanding then they reach certain conclusions, then they come to Sahaja Yog, then they get realised, it works out that way. But with seekers it’s very different, seekers just jump into it. They do not think about it they just get it. They get it so fast that they don’t think about it, they just they get it. So they are so sensitive, that’s the difference.

Question: Can we help our loved ones who do not want to listen to anything, particularly about Sahaja Yoga?

Shri Mataji: You see there’s nobody else that you help someone, they are all within yourself. On the contrary, I would say better to have them together who are Sahaja yogis because those who are not will trouble you, it will be a problem, leave them alone, they’ll be all right, they’ll come round. Let them come on their own you cannot force them, they’re loved ones, you’ll change now your priorities, you’ll understand that those who are really loved ones are not really your brothers and sisters. As Christ has said, “Who are my brothers and sisters?” Now we have to ask that question. Because you speak another language, you are a different person, not that you give them up, but they exist. But they haven’t got your awareness so is a different thing all together. But you help them in a way, gradually they see you but if you force them they’ll run away. No use forcing or telling them anything about it but you show your satisfaction and happiness and your growth and others get impressed by it and they just come to you.

Question: how can you.. Do You help them?

Shri Mataji: Yes, I do. But you should put them out of your minds and say, “Mother, You help. If You try to help, then I’ll leave it to You.”:

W: (Question) He can’tunderstand why You say that Christ died for us. Why did He die for us?

Shri Mataji: What else could He have done with the stupid people? They crucified Him, He didn’t say, “You come and crucify Me,” did He, you see? They’re stupid, horrible people, donkeys. They didn’t understand Him, stones as they were what to do? They crucified Him, He didn’t ask. But when He was crucified the sins that they committed in crucifying Him were to be forgiven. That’s what it is. He was, what did He do? You see He died because of you because people like you only crucified Him. You represent them. When you are realised then you are different people, then you are resurrected. His message was resurrection not crucifixion but that shows the stupidity of these people, isn’t it. I mean you may do that again I can’t say, there are people.

W: Question: Is it possible to exercise love and acceptance when as she says.. You’re judging people as to whether they’re right or wrong.

Warren: We are using vibrations.

Shri Mataji: I am not judging, you are judging because when you get your vibrations you start judging yourself. You see I am not judging it’s only your own judgment. It’s your own judgment. Are you getting your cool breeze in the hands? No, then let it happen. I’m not judging you it’s you are judging it yourself. All right, then you will know yourself. Just now you are judging that you’re not getting vibrations.

Question: Is it true that Indira Gandi is worshiped as a Goddess?

Shri Mataji: oh don’t, that’s all political stuff, you see, Indian people are like that.

Warren: that’s useless.

W: (Question)  She’s confused about the fact that You talked about love and acceptance at the beginning but then when peoples names were brought up, we often scoffed at them.

Shri Mataji: ah About the gurus? Ah, that’s it. It’s a very important point. That’s very much with you people. You see you have all of you, you see have developed a philosophy where you say that nobody is evil, everything is fine. This is a very good philosophy to work with because you also fit into the thing. That nothing is evil about you also, isn’t it? It happens like that. You remember when Christ was criticising these horrible people they asked Him, “How do You criticise them? They do not criticise You.”

Then He said, “Will the devil talk against its own house?”

There is a negative force working, very much active and you have to not only scoff but get rid of these things because they are acting as your destroying forces and they destroy you, I see them very clearly and I have to tell you. So love doesn’t mean that I love a snake, will you go and love a snake, a snake must understand first of all. In the same way we have to understand there are evil people, that’s true. That is what is very much in the West, I see, “Oh, you love everyone” is all right. But you don’t love a snake, do you? Go and have, ask snake, “I want to love you.” He’ll just finish you off.

So many of you are harmed so much by these people and I have to cure you. You don’t know what I have to go through, such a lot of work to cure you when you are affected by these people. You don’t know how much I’ve worked, morning till evening. This morning I started six o’clock till I came here just ten minutes I got to change My sari and I was here. These are affected by other gurus and things and I have to take it out. I know what harm they have done to you. You have no idea.

Question: What are Your objections to chanting and singing the holy scriptures?

Shri Mataji: Not at all, who told you I am, I’m not but you must understand that without understanding what chanting is needed, it’s like a medicine. Chanting is a mantra. Mantra means a thing that acts as a sound to correct a particular thing within you, all right. It’s you can say sound therapy, all right. Now you have to know what medicine is needed for which charka, also you must know where is the problem with you, or with anybody else. I mean it would be chanting at random means sometimes it would be sort of an indiscriminate drinking of all the medicines, you see. Taking all the medicines bottles into your stomach emptying them without understanding. We do chant but we know where to chant, what. You see, not indiscriminate, just like that. And it’s very dangerous because when you go on chanting say, Rama’s name or Krishna’s name.

Now when you say Krishna’s name, Krishna is here, if your Kundalini has not reached there up to this point if you take Krishna’s name it’s very, very annoying for Krishna Himself and He recedes, sleeps off. He freezes sometimes and by that you develop problems of the chakras and sometimes you develop throat cancer, it’s very serious. So first, you must know where is your Kundalini, where it has gone, where it has stopped. Then you should know what is the problem, then you must know what exactly is the chanting to be used, all right, and then cure that part. You see so it’s a big science, which has to be understood in Sahaja Yoga, it’s not at random.

You are suffering from whatever trouble you are suffering from, you must know first of all. See many people who are Christians catch on Agnya I told you, they do, because it’s unauthorised. Christ, we treat Him as if I don’t know what, some passion fruit hanging in a tree. Do we know who He is? There is a protocol, great protocol. Even Brahma, Vishnu Mahesh could not reach Him. So for us because we think we are born among Christian families and because the church has given us a certificate so called do you think we are authorised to chant His name all the time and trouble Him? And what do we ask? Do we ask for our spirits? Do we ask to give our realisation? Do we ask that we have to be born again? No, what do we ask? Something nonsensical.

Question: What is Your opinion about practicing spiritualists.

Shri Mataji: Very dangerous, never go near them. Never touch them even with a barge pole, horrible things they are. You see it is very simple to understand that if you get connected with any area what so ever, and somebody is connected to that area you are exposed to that and there can be any indiscriminate aggression on you from that area. You would not know who’s coming on you. So never go near them. May be you want to talk to your father say, whose dead, you want to talk to him. Why? Release him, free him, why do you want to talk to him? Now let him be alone, let him decide for himself what he wants to do. Why do you want him to hang around? It’s too much, it’s too much of a load. Then you want to, when you use some medium for that you do not know he might get somebody else. It’s very dangerous for your children also, so many children have died with this kind of a thing. I mean you develop especially cancer, this multiple sclerosis or anything like that. All these come from spiritualists. These are all spiritualists, these gurus are spiritualists only. They’ll believe is spirits, they’ll handle the spirits they’re working out, these are very dangerous things I may be able to tell you some time how they work it out and how they master it. It’s very dangerous. They’re like vampires, what you call it, vampires. More surprising is that there are so many things in English language, which we don’t have, like witchcraft and the witches were sort of punished, all sorts of things are there. In England, they talk of all these things supernatural and all this but still I don’t know how they go into it.

Warren: somebody asked me a question on the way up. Is it wrong to be a medium? This relates to the previous question, so perhaps you could answer that Mother?

Shri Mataji: Oh God, I need not tell, it’s very, very wrong to play into the hands of the spirits. You are enslaved completely; you don’t know what happens to you. Horrible, it creates problems absolutely you’re an abnormal personality. Never do it. It’s sinful, sinful. If you accept My words really it’s horrible, never do that.

Question: What is the difference between western spirituality and eastern spirituality?

Shri Mataji: Now this word spirituality means by these spiritualists you mean?

Warren: No. Philosophy.

Shri Mataji: Is just the same, spirit is just the same. Is universal, there is no difference at all, I do not find any difference. Spirituality means the spirit that is the Atma, you mean the spirit that is the Atma, the one….

Question: I’m talking more about the quest for the spirit.

W: search for the spirit

Shri Mataji: Search is just the same. But Indians you see now, modern Indians are sort of developing you see, they have to go to that height to see where you have landed yourself. See they can short circuit, they can short circuit if they want but if they want they may have to go to various types of problems you had with that affluence and they may come back. But it is better to short circuit it I tell them. While yours is a problem so easy because you have discovered now that matter is not sufficient. Matter doesn’t give us joy, no use running after matter. But still some of them are running after sex you see and all that. They have to finish another circuit, once they are over with that also then things will be better. But in all this kind of a quest you have lost something indefinitely, no doubt. Going through the matter, going through the sex and going through the power all these trips you see you have lost something, which requires correction. While Indians if they understand with their wisdom they better short circuit this, need not go into plastics and nylons. You see I have to carry nylon saris from England for Indians while they have their silks, they want to wear nylon. So this is the difference in the basic development. But Indians if they take to Sahaja Yoga they’re very good and easy, especially Indian villagers are excellent. They don’t understand all this they have no mental problems you see. I don’t have to discuss with them all these things, they have not gone into all this nonsense so they suddenly become beautiful fruits, that’s all.

So this is the difference of little degrees I would say that you are gone to other extreme and you still have to move to that extreme or they may finish off and then we can achieve results. But your quest is much ardent, very sincere and truth. One more thing I always felt and today also I feel that really some great souls are born in the west, that’s why is such a sincere desire, very sincere in their desire. Indians first they come to Me for curing, if not for curing, for getting children ,if not for that for jobs or money all sorts of thing they come up. Or they’ll say, “My mother is sick, my father is sick, my brother is this,” all this goes on. But I have met many, many seekers in the west who just want realisation, very beautiful people no doubt. But you have lost something in your seeking, no doubt, doesn’t matter. Kundalini is that ardent desire within you, which works it out.

W: Question: It seems as though the simpler the life we lead the better we are, it is much easier for us. We get away from thinking and so on.

Shri Mataji: I agree is a good idea of simplicity but is a, you must understand that also very clearly because we had somebody who was a hippy I should say. He was a real hippy, such big grown, he had grown hair up to this much and all that. He came to Me and scarcely wearing anything in that horrible English cold you see.

I said, “What are you doing to yourself why don’t you clad your self properly into proper clothes and better cover yourself,” and I was really didn’t understand him.

I said, “You are not living in Africa why are you dressed up like this, it’s like a primitive dress.” He said, “I want to be primitive.”
I said, “You cannot by dressing up. Your brain is so over developed, how can you be primitive.”

You see by dressing up something do you become that. I mean it’s just a drama you are playing with yourself, you do not become primitive. This is the point is that and then the problem is the brain is thinking the same way, that the same rate and everything the same, only by changing is something that is not good because you should accept as you are. Why to do something like that? But simpler life means this way, that’s another extreme. But you see too much of formality like having a tail coat or wearing morning dress, grey suit and then having a particular type of a glass for a thing and all that nonsense you see, you better finish off. That’s bit too much going too far with it and also caring for all these small, small things like matter that’s something that’s grown in you. Preservation of horrible things and useless things and all that it’s [really?]. And then to think, think, think, think about everything, sit down and think how miserable I am and when there is no misery you just sit down and make miseries by thinking. I don’t find any thing miserable here, what is there? You see in India these people where there people are so happy, chirping just like birds enjoying themselves. They don’t have all the things that you have. So you see to get out of materialism is a better idea, to say that a simpler life means, but you must live beautifully. Beautiful doesn’t mean that you should have ten types of things and all that. Beautifully means you should not be as a morbid stinking, you see. Clean and beautiful you can make beauty out of the soil anything; with love, you can do anything. So you see it’s alright I mean whatever way you dress up or anything makes no difference that’s what I’m trying to say. That it is the inner thing that has to change not the outer. Again the Sahaja Yoga is this.