Talkback Radio 2UE

Sydney (Australia)


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Radio Interview, Sydney (Australia), 31 March 1981. 

Talkback program ‘The Forum’ on 2UE Radio. Hosted by Ian Parry Oakden.

I [1]: Well, hi and welcome once again to the program. And tonight, a program with a slight difference. In the past, on the forum we’ve talked in different ways about finding oneself; about knowing oneself, and we’ve asked you at times to describe yourself in various ways, which has been interesting. Tonight we look at a different aspect of that under the title of Self Realization. In the past few years in Australia we have seen a succession of people come to Australia, with various titles, who lead what is generally regarded, I suppose, as cults. There have been people who have called themselves Maharajis, or Maharaji; there have been people who’ve called themselves yogis, there are people who will come up to you in the street and hand you literature who are followers of particular, mostly Indian based religious movements. I think that in general, is the way they describe them. And just lately I seem to be receiving more and more literature about these sort of people coming to Australia to speak to their followers. We’ve seen television films of them being greeted at the airport by devoted followers. And the other day I received a news release, guess you could call it that, about someone just a little bit different, because this time it’s a woman. And that makes it interesting to start with. Let me read you what came in the mail:

Mataji Nirmala Devi is a most remarkable person. Ten years ago, She perfected a technique by which people can free themselves from their physical, emotional and mental disorders caused by the stresses of modern life.

Well that got me interested to begin with, and I read a little further and I thought, “It’s about time we talked to someone like this. And what better time than now and what better person than Mataji Nirmala Devi?” And She is in the studio here with me tonight.

I: “Good evening. Welcome to the program.” “Mataji, You are the leader of, or You are a practicer, I understand, of Sahaja Yoga. Can you explain what that is?”

Shri Mataji: Sahaja means spontaneous. “Saha” means with, “Ja” means born; it is born with you. It is spontaneous; it is the living force. A living force that has made you a human being from amoeba; is going to make you the higher being where you become the Self. It is all… in every scriptures you will find they have described that you have to be born again. Every prophet, every incarnation has said that you have to be born again. And there must be some thing within us, which does that job, and this is known as Kundalini and was known to people – very few people I should say – in the ancient times.

Then in the sixth century, Adi Shankaracharya talked about it very clearly that it’s only the Kundalini awakening, the awakening of this Residual Power within us which lies in the triangular bone called as Sacrum, means sacred bone. Just imagine, that time they knew it was a sacred bone. That it rises and crosses all the subtle centers, pierces through the fontanel bone area and gives you your real baptism, your real birth, and you can also feel the softness of your fontanel bone area on top of your head. And this is an actualization. This is not that you can just pay some money or become a member, organize something. It’s an actualization and you can see the pulsation of the Kundalini at the base; the rising of the Kundalini and the breaking of the fontanel bone area which is called in Sanskrit as Brahmarandhra.

I: So you are saying this is what… Spirit inside us, which you call Kundalini?

Shri Mataji: No. Spirit, this is the Holy Ghost, and the Spirit is in the Heart. Spirit is the reflection of God within us.

I: So it’s not the Spirit. It is a live force?

Shri Mataji: This is the force that is the pure desire to be one with God; that is within us all the time, dormantly lying. It only manifests when it sees, or gets instruction, or is handled by a person who is authorized by God. Not by any institution or anything, but by God. Such a person Himself is a realized soul. It is like one enlightened light can enlighten another light. It’s very simple.

I: So that what you are trying to tell us is that we have within us a live force called…

Shri Mataji: A germinating, germinating force you can say.

I: Right. Called Kundalini.

Shri Mataji: Yes.

I: And this is generated in the…

Shri Mataji: It awakens. Actually, it moves like an energy.

I: in the bone, but around the eye?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no Sacrum is the bone at the base of the spinal chord, the triangular bone.

I: Right. At the base of the Spine and that is where this force awakens.

Shri Mataji: Yes. And it rises. You see the pulsation rising and it comes up to the top of the head, which is called the fontanel bone area in the medical terms. But, here it is called as Taloo in Sanskrit language. And it pierces through. You can see the pulsation coming up here and after sometime the pulsation stops.

I: This is when you are meditating? You can see this in somebody meditating? Or…

Shri Mataji: It’s like, you see, for this you have to just place your hand towards Me to begin with. Then any other Sahaja Yogi can also do it. But to begin with, you have to place the hands towards Me just like this; like Namaaz you see, as they do Namaaz.

I: That’s palms open….

Shri Mataji: Yes, just palms towards Me and you find that through your fingers… when it pierces through, you start feeling a cool breeze blowing in and that’s the sign that you have got that Power flowing through. But with that you get many other manifestations. Like, first of all you feel absolutely relaxed. Secondly, you feel the cool breeze also coming out of the head, fontanel bone area. First the heat comes out and then the cool breeze comes out.

I: Right. What is happening when that happens? What is happening to the body? Is one relaxing? Is one becoming more holy? Is one, what is happening when this… if you…

Shri Mataji: You are evolving; you evolve to a higher state of consciousness. Your consciousness as it is, is a human consciousness or human awareness. Now… but your Spirit is by itself; it is enjoying by itself. It is not in your conscious mind. Means you do not feel in your central nervous system – its manifestation. It is by itself. Now when Kundalini rises, She takes your attention inside because the happening takes place and this attention gets enlightened by the Spirit which is actually placed in the Heart. But the seat is in the Taloo, in the fontanel bone area on top of that. So once you touch that, your attention becomes enlightened and the attention itself becomes collectively conscious. It becomes; it’s a becoming. It’s not just saying that they are all brothers and sisters, it just happens. You start feeling them on your fingertips. All the centers; your own and that of others also.

I: So it’s a, it’s a method of, of coming to, to terms with forces within our own body, to put it bluntly.

Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. That’s why it is Sahaj, means born with you. Sahaja – born with you. Yoga means Union with God. So this right to be born again, to be, united with God is within you. But it has to work out spontaneously.

I: How is this different from practicing the sort of Yogas that we’ve seen over the years? This form of yoga that we have of television in the morning, in women’s magazines, the classes that people go to, which, I suppose, are relaxation exercises really. How does your Sahaja Yoga differ from that?

Shri Mataji: It’s very different because, you see, in this the accent is only on physical side of life. You are not only your physical being, neither your emotional being nor only your religion; what you call… your sustenance. You are much more than that and unless and until you see all these three aspects properly in balanced way, it can be very dangerous. More over, the Hatha Yoga that is done these days, perhaps, has no relation with what real Patanjali Yoga is. Because, Patanjali Yoga was practiced at the time when we had another type of system in our society where the children of five years used to go to the Gurus, stay with them, and there the Gurus used to select people who were good for realization. Then first thing they would do is Ishwara Pranidhan, means establishment of God within you, means realization. There are eight simultaneous things, Ashtaangas. It’s not only one physical exercises, and physical exercise is only 1/10th of one of them. But the first and foremost thing is the establishment of God, means Sahaja Yoga. First your God must be established, then you see the movement of the Kundalini and you see the obstructions of the different centers and you know which center is to be activated; if there’s a physical problem, then what exercise to be done. But today’s modern Yoga is such that you take all the medicines in one, one shot all of them, whether they are required or not. You don’t know what you are doing to yourself. This is absolutely absurd, and this can relax you because may be that somebody else takes over from you. May be you get possessed or may be something like that that you feel relaxed but you are not in control of your relaxation. You are not in control of yourself at all. You have to become absolutely the master of your body, mind, everything.

I: “Mataji, you’ve come to Australia to speak to people and to Your followers and You are… You do have followers. Why do You have followers? Who are these people who deify You and who call You Mother?”

Shri Mataji: I mean, it is like the sun shining and the leaves are bathing in it. Now the time has come, to flowers to become fruits. Now, how… what can we can do? It’s a relationship… exists because what they want, I have and I give them; that’s all.

I: It’s more than

Shri Mataji: But it is not binding there. I mean, I do not try to sort of dominate them in any way. But I see to it that they grow into good citizens and grow into proper personalities with their Spirit completely manifesting in them.

I: “Are You then their teacher?”

Shri Mataji: “Yes, of course. I have to teach them as a Mother; so many things Mother has to teach the children. But it’s a sweet way of doing it. How you do it is the point. I mean, a Mother doesn’t take any money for what She teaches and it’s question of love, and Divine Love is so remarkable that it just manifests Itself.

I: You don’t take money from your followers?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no. How can you pay for God’s Love? Can you? That’s one thing one should know. When they have this market on and all these people are coming in, you must know one thing that you cannot pay for it. This is one of the things people must realize; they don’t use their brains.

I: There are many cults where people give a lot of money to the Gurus. And there are Gurus… There’s one… Well, I can’t think of a number. But there is one who is riding around in Rolls Royces and so on, and living…

Shri Mataji: I know (Mother Laughs)

I: a very high life. As a matter of fact, a friend of mine is a follower of him. [INAUDIBLE]

Shri Mataji: Just imagine.

I: and he has changed very much. I mean he is a very, well, holy person, I suppose, He certainly is at peace. He is a very happy man there since he is become a follower of this particular Guru. And I’ve never been able to see why; he’s never been able to explain why. And I wonder what you think, in general, of these cult movements.

Shri Mataji: You see, what these people do is that their main aim is to make some money. But there can be even more sinister people; they may be wanting to stop your evolution. They are satanic; some of them are very satanic forces because they give epilepsy and they give horrible diseases. They make people recluses; they just mesmerize them. People start thinking, “Oh, they’re becoming very holy and they’ve become very good.” But the first thing we should know, as Jung has put it – who was the disciple of Freud, and I am happy, he is very popular in your country – that the next step has to be that you become collectively conscious. By becoming higher personality you start feeling the centers of other people and yours also. This was to be expected that you became collectively conscious. This is the point one should see. For example: Somebody says, “I am very happy”, so what does it matter? I mean if you feel that he is happy, it’s only his ego is pampered. If you pamper somebody’s ego, the person feels very happy and if you condition somebody or give him a superego, he feels unhappy. Both happiness and unhappiness are the two sides of one coin. But joy is very different. Joy is a drama; joy is a beauty and that only you can get it if you… your attention gets enlightened by your Spirit. Because Spirit is the only source of joy which doesn’t have duality; which just watches, which is a witness. And these people just play upon your ego or they play upon your superego. They can mesmerize you; they have all these methods.

I: They are very popular with young people.

Shri Mataji: Yes, poor young people. You see, they are real seekers I tell you. They are actually saints born because the last judgment has started now, and the judgment is going to take place through the Kundalini awakening only. How are we going… how anybody is going to judge anyone? I mean God, how is He going to judge? – Is only by awakening your Kundalini and that’s what has started. So, so many saints have taken birth to be in the kingdom of God, as was promised, and that’s why these markets are afloat. You see when there’s a demand, there’s a market also for that and people are in the market. And, naturally, in the market money is the main thing, to begin with. But it’s very, very dangerous. These people are so mesmerized, they don’t want to see. It’s not your happiness that is important; it’s the happiness of the whole. What are you doing for that?

I: Well, I think they are certainly interested in getting new members for their cults. They certainly go round and try to sell their cult on the streets, or wherever.

Shri Mataji: Yes, they are. For example: there was a Guru who was to come to England, and he said, “I’ll have a Rolls Royce, otherwise I will not to come to England.” So these young people starved themselves, ate potatoes and all that, and they wanted to have the fellow there. And when some of the Sahaja Yogis went and talked to them, “Why should you give him a Rolls Royce?” He says, “By giving Rolls Royce what we are just giving metal; but he gives us Spirit.” How can he exchange Spirit for metal? I can’t understand that.

I: Are You holy?

Shri Mataji: (Mother Laughs) This you better find out yourself. (Mother laughs) (Both laugh) What’s the sign of holiness is? Holiness is that which, which cleanses others automatically. Christ was touched by a lady, and an energy flew into her and she got cured absolutely. This is what it is. You don’t… you see, what do you ask the Sun? Will you ask the Sun, “Are you, are you the light?” I mean, What it does? It is the part and parcel of that, isn’t it?”

I: Your followers say You are Holy.

Shri Mataji: Yes, they, they must have found it out. (Mother Laughs) because, if holiness means cleansing, it means energy giving, then of course, it has worked with them.

I: I’d like to talk to You about the energy giving. We’ll talk about that in a moment. Because You’d mentioned before – holding out your palms and some of them hold out their hands to You. You talked about holding ones hands up to You. So, in just a moment we will take a break and I’ll come back and talk to you about that… [Talk specific to the radio station omitted as it is not relevant] I am talking to Mataji Nirmala Devi and She is a Guru… No? I am sorry.

Shri Mataji: I am a Divine Mother. Mataji means Divine Mother. That’s not My name. My name is Nirmala. Nirmala means Holy, Pure or Immaculata. My… they have given Me this title as Mataji, which means Holy Mother.

I: Are you a Yogi?

Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. I mean yogi in the sense that if you are one with your Spirit, that I am.

I: There have been so many people passing through this country talking about offering all sorts of answers to today’s problems in what is a basically, I suppose, Christian culture; although we can talk about that too tonight. People who come from various religious movements, based generally in India. And tonight we have one of those people on the program… She is different…

I: Mataji, we talked about Energy and that You have an Energy to give other people. How does, how does it happen that, You are the person who has that Energy? Why You?

Shri Mataji: I mean, as you are the one who is asking Me questions from the Radio, in the same way perhaps I am appointed to do this job you see, that’s all. If anybody can do it, I will be very happy. As I told you, I am a married lady and My husband is very highly placed in life and I actually miss Him and He misses Me too and My children are there; I’ve got grandchildren. But this is something else that He thinks is very important, and that’s why I am doing it and if somebody else can do it, I will be very happy to retire. I will be really happy, I tell you. But some things you can do and some things I can do. That’s what it is.

I: Is it a gift from God?

Shri Mataji: Yes, of course it is. And you can have the same gift because you have to just get your realization, that’s all. You can also do the same thing.

I: Do I have to be in contact with You?

Shri Mataji: You have to be… not necessarily. People who are realized now in Sydney, only two persons came to India. They have given realization to three hundred people. So it is not necessary for you to be in contact with Me. But you have to get your realization through somebody who is an enlightened person and who knows how to handle the Kundalini.

I: Now, the Energy is the Kundalini, this is what You offer to other people…

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes.

I: Is to put them in touch with their own Kundalini?

Shri Mataji: That works faster when I am there, but even these people can do it; that’s true.

I: So what’s the Power of this as far as healing is concerned? I believe You are… or claim to be able to heal people?

Shri Mataji: That is… that happens spontaneously. I mean, I do not heal people as such. But it happens because when the Kundalini rises, She enlightens your parasympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system is like the storehouse of energy. But when it crosses the fontanel bone area, it gets connected to the mains. It’s like, supposing your petrol is finishing and you get connected to the mains and all the time petrol is flowing into you, then you get cured because all that energy which is being spent by sympathetic activity is replaced. And that’s how people get all right. But I do not go about healing people or I do not have a healing center. I do not go in the hospitals. But those who are seekers get a spontaneous healing. Even blood cancer, cancer of any kind can be cured. But they have to be seekers to begin with and their Kundalini must rise and when they get their realization, as a byproduct they get healed. That’s a different thing from healing people and just paying more attention to the body. Because if you have to have the temple of God to be enlightened by His presence, then your temple has to be cleansed.

I: Let’s talk about God, or Your concept about God. You were raised as a Christian, were You not? Or were You born as a Christian?

Shri Mataji: I was to be born something – either I was to be born Christian, Hindu, Muslim. Any where I could have been born. But I, I choose a father and a mother, and a father (who) was an enlightened soul and a great man. It was He who told Me about human beings, how they are. I didn’t know they were that complicated.

I: Where did you learn about Kundalini and, and the various techniques that You now teach?

Shri Mataji: I didn’t learn anything at all because I knew all this from My very childhood. This is innately built within you, the whole knowledge. Like as you are born as a human being, you can see it is bad smell, isn’t it? Nobody has to tell you it is bad smell. But a horse doesn’t feel the bad smell. In the same way you are born at a higher stage, you see many more things and you know many more things. I knew that, I was like that from very childhood. As you know that you are a human being as soon as you are born.

I: Did the people around you recognize this in You very, very early in your life?

Shri Mataji: I mean, some people like My father did recognize. Not only that, but he knew the purpose of My life and all that. But some people, I mean there were different reactions, I should say, according to their understanding. But all of them knew that there is something unique about Me.

I: Does Your belief now… how does that connect to Christianity? If You were raised in a Christian family, have You risen beyond the Christian religion, or beyond all religions?

Shri Mataji: I am beyond all the religions, I should say. And you also rise above it because the religion that we know of now are… once upon a time were real flowers on the living tree of life. But they plucked it. They said, “This is mine, this is mine”, and they took it away and these flowers have become now ugly and dead. They are not living any more. So, all these religions are just giving you a lip service. They are not giving you actualization. Actually the attention from the Spirit is gone.

I: DoYou believe that the Jesus Christ was Holy?

Shri Mataji: Of course, He was. Not only (that) but He was Holiness completely, that He was the Pranava, He was the Omkara. He was the Divine Power Himself when He came on this Earth. And through Him only we give realization because He is settled in a center here which is the door. Door to the limbic area which is…

I: Which is the center of the forehead.

Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon?

I: The center of the forehead.

Shri Mataji: No, it is not. It’s shown here at the center but it is between the pituitary and the pineal body on the optic chiasma. There is a very subtle center of Christ which is the door and through which the Kundalini has to pass. If the Kundalini stops there, invariably in a Christian it does because Christians are not following Christ, they are following the church. They should follow the Christ as Christ has said I’ll be calling you Christ, Christ… you will be calling Me, Christ, Christ and I wouldn’t recognize. This is what exactly happened – that they do not recognize Christ. Christ has said the first and foremost thing a Christian has to do is to get rebirth. You, your Spirit has to come in your awareness. This is what He said and that attention is not there. We are organizing churches, we are organizing this, we are doing all other things. Living work is to be done. This is the living work and this is what it is. This is real true Christianity and true Islam and true everything because that is what they taught us – to be one with the Spirit. That’s the main thing we are avoiding.

I: Can you describe what you believe is the purpose of us all being here? These days people seem to be searching more, seem to be more and more confused. I am sure there are many people who don’t feel they are but there are an awful lot of people who do seem to be lost, do seem to be searching for some truth, some reason for being here. Can you explain, what You believe is a reason for being on Earth?

Shri Mataji: You see, they are seekers. Why? Because they have not found their own meaning; we have not found our meaning, we do not know. Even the science cannot explain why we have become human beings; Why the nature has taken so much trouble to discard so many animals and things and to make us as human beings; What is the purpose. They are trying to find out their purpose – Why are they here on this Earth? And they are here only for one purpose, is to become one with the Spirit so that they understand and enjoy the beauty of God’s Kingdom.

I: We were created by God?

Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. Who else you think could have created such a wonderful thing like a human being?

I: Do you see the God being the same God that the Christians worship and the Muslims worship?

Shri Mataji: Yes, just the same.

I: It’s all the same God?

Shri Mataji: That’s not the Christians I would say, but that’s what Bible has described is the same. So there’s a difference between what the Christians believe because they’ve put interpretations some times, you see.

I: Well, the Bible describes, for instance, in the first testament the very revengeful God, in many ways, a very angry God at times, that sort of stories. I am wondering how Your view of God fits into the Bible’s description of God. Is it identical?

Shri Mataji: It is very much so. But you see, Bible was written at various places by various people and it was synchronized also. Christ’s life was only for four years there and people didn’t allow Him to talk much. you see. Just they just killed Him and crucified Him and He had His disciples who were just fishermen. How He could talk to them about Parasympathetic and Sympathetic and all those things? And they also did not believe Him till He got resurrection. It was a big problem at that time and that’s why the whole thing becomes very narrow; though very deep. So to understand Christianity, you must get your realization, then you can go deep into it and see what He wanted to convey to us. There are many things you cannot explain like, “I will appear before you like tongues of flames. Those who are not against Me are with Me.” Who are those people He is talking about?

So all these things can be only explained once you get realization. Now the concept of God is… the way people interpret is very funny, as if they think He is a rock of Gibraltar. One, God means that He doesn’t have eyes, nose, everything, but He has aspects. God has many aspects and the aspect, that is, the witness act aspect of the God Almighty has another aspect, which is His Power. And this Power incarnates and this Power has three other Powers by which She creates, She desires and She wars. These three Powers are there and that’s how there are many aspects of God out of which the God’s aspect that they know of, is the God who is just a spectator. He is the spectator and His Power is the one that creates. He is the only spectator. Now, when He doesn’t like (the) spectacle, when the people or whatever is created is no good, He takes out His attention, and that’s how it is destroyed and finished. So He has to be punishing God also. Otherwise, human beings in their freedom do not know how far to go. They even challenge God. They do not believe in Him and then they have to learn it. Cancer is one of the things that’s apunishment of God I think. Because we are too much occupied, preoccupied with our own problems and with our own understanding of life and we project ourselves too much into extremes, we go beyond human sustenance and we develop these diseases. And then a balance is needed. It’s most surprising – even in nature you can see. When you work very hard, you get a Heart attack. When you work very hard with your brain, you get Heart attack. And when your work very hard with your Heart, means when you are say get very emotional and weep and cry, you get a brain damage. Something so interesting, how the balance is even created by nature. It shows in the same way God also punishes us when we do not look after our sustenance, our human being, as He requires the different qualities to be maintained within us,. like the gold has a quality that it is untarnishable.

In the same way human beings have these ten qualities described in the Ten Commandments and we, we just say, “what’s wrong?” You see, this is all Ego oriented societies. They say, “What’s wrong? What is wrong in it? Why should we condition ourselves?” But we forget that if we do not look after this right, our Ego develops and it becomes like a big balloon. We start seeing it, as if it is coming out like a horn and get you frightened. Then you take to drugs and alcohols, you want to run away and escape. So can’t bear your Ego. You just see the colors, all stuff coming on you. So all these problems come because we do not understand that we have to keep a temperate mind, we have to be in moderation. We have to be in the center and not to go to extremes.

I: Mataji, You mentioned a number of things that I wanted to question You about. One is satan and You said that some of these people who have young followers in cults are satanic and in just a moment we’ll talk about that I think… [Radio station specifics/advertisement]

My guest is a practicer of or teacher of Sahaja Yoga, Mataji Nirmala Devi, and She is in Australia to speak to Her followers, and to speak to people who care [?] to listen about a method of discovering Self Realization. I think that’s the best way to put it…

Mataji, we’ve talked about God, let’s talk about satan for a moment, You obviously believe there are evil forces?

Shri Mataji: Of course, there are evil forces, very many, and they come to us from the left and the right side within us called as… left side is called the Collective Subconscious areas and the right side is called Collective Supraconscious area and these are the busy bodies.

I: To say that again, the Collective Subconscious area is the left hand side?

Shri Mataji: Yes, left hand side and Collective Supraconscious area on the right hand side.Now these are the areas, which are unknown areas as the doctors say, from where they get some attack of proteins, which like protein-58 and all that which attacks and triggers the cancer, you see. This I’ve said about ten-fifteen years back. But now the doctors have started seeing them and photographing them. Now these are the areas where all the dead spirits who were two types, one the sly type are on the left hand side and the ambitious type are on the right hand side.

I: Dead spirits?

Shri Mataji: Yes, spirits.

I: Inside the skull?

Shri Mataji: Inside us. You see we can approach them within ourselves. Now they are… that these areas are within us and we can get out of these areas also. Because if ours… we spread our attention side ways, we can go to these areas also. And once you go to these areas, those people who are sensible, who die sensibly or those who are realized souls, they go to another areas where they are to be born again or they remain there. But those who are still dissatisfied or cruel people or satanic forces, they remain around and these are the people actually maneuvered by people who try to mesmerize, and they have their ways. In Sanskrit language it is called as Preta vidya, means the knowledge of the dead. The knowledge of the Smashana, means the burial places. They go and practice these things there and try to overpower these spirits, those are evil ones, and use them for mesmerizing and using them for their own purposes. It’s a science known to India for many years, how people do these things. It’s a evil science. Even in England, I was surprised, they had witchcraft and they knew about witches and all that. And still they are busy too much doing all these things. They …

I: Do these Spirits have a Power? Do You believe; these evil Spirits?

Shri Mataji: They, they have no Power. They are just like human beings who are dead, but they are evil people and they can enter into your psyche and they can affect you. They give you epilepsy. So many of your emotional problems come from them; most of the lunacy I’ve seen. I mean all the lunatic people I have seen have this problem. Even the cancer people, I have seen, have the problem more from the…

I: How do you know they have this problem? Can you see a demon?

Shri Mataji: No, not by seeing, but you can feel them on their hands. For example, if you have a cancer patient facing you, you see, you find the left side, left hand starts shaking very much like a lunatic shakes and things, and the heat starts coming from the left hand side. Not so much from the right hand side to begin with. That shows the affectation is from the subconscious area. I mean the collective subconscious area. Also epilepsy comes from the supraconscious area when the people start projecting themselves, say, they say that we want to fly in the air or they want to think too much ambitiously about things – to create gold out of something. All these nonsensical ideas you see. Then they project to the right side. And when they project to the right side, in the beginning, somebody who is on the right side can enter into the being and can posses, and such a person can be very ego-oriented and can be successful for the time being. But then, riding two men or two human beings on one body, he becomes very tired and even at the sight of a thing like a garlic, that person starts racking. Even a church they see, they start racking.

I: A Church?

Shri Mataji: Church even. Even a incense if they see, they start racking. Any temple they see, rattling; they cannot bear the name of God. They start rattling. All their nerves are finished; they become recluses after sometime. In the beginning they become very, sort of, active, over active and become very successful sort of people. But then they collapse and they collapse very badly.

I: Perhaps I should just ask You in that line, the whole idea of spirits and of evil spirits. Does this come from an idea of reincarnation, of a sort of wheel of life? What do You believe happens after death?

Shri Mataji: You see, after death you would never die. Actually only there are five elements you are made of, out of which the earth element really falls off and the other four elements remain. And the water oozes out a little, little like that, and you become a small entity, which is the Soul. The Soul has got the Kundalini on top of the head and the Spirit on top of the head and all the four elements are there intact. So you, you can think you can do many things; you can materialize. For example, you can move any instrument that is here even without seeing the person. You can just move the things from here to there. But people must understand (that) this is not God’s work. All these things are not God’s work. Like sitting down and talking to dead bodies and dead people is also very wrong, because there’s no justice done to that. For example, if you say somebody loves the father or the mother; they want to talk to them. Is very wrong because you must give them freedom, they belong to another area. And why do you want to entangle them with this present times, because they are in the past Now. You have to be in the present. They have to be in the past. Leave them alone. Now, like, I would say…

I: Do they come back and are reborn, or not?

Shri Mataji: Yes, they come into you. I have seen now this disease anorexia, asthmas, can be cured. Most of the people who get asthmas have a problem because their parents have died early.

I: This is asthma?

Shri Mataji: Asthma. Or may be that they have a bad father, or they have been bad fathers or something, now what we called the right Heart center, and this can be cured. Today only I cured gentleman who had asthma trouble. Because of this, because he was pining for his father; his father died when he was twelve years of age, he was very much shocked. You have to just tell that, “father you take your birth again”, thrice. It works out. Anorexia is another thing. Is the same thing…

I: Well, in the series of reincarnations, incarnation of the Spirit goes around and rises. It just comes back, is born again in another body and rises, becomes more and more knowledgeable or pure. That’s the theory of reincarnation, isn’t it?… Is that what you believe?

Shri Mataji: Yes, I, I… not believe, but it is the truth because Christ didn’t talk about it much. Why Christ did not talk? Because it’s a very, very controversial stuff. If you tell somebody that there is reincarnation, even today I find the same thing. Like Indians, the first thing they will ask, “What was My first birth?” Because you go into your past, you see. Christ wanted them to be in the present. So He didn’t discuss it. But He said, “I’ll come again.” How He will come if He cannot reincarnate?

I: Well now, You believe the, the evil Spirits are people who have died and have not reincarnated?

Shri Mataji: Yes, and some of them can be satanic forces who have taken birth, (and) they have been doing always satanic work. But people do not want to believe that there is something evil. They think that everything… that’s very good of them to say that. But once Christ criticized others. So they asked Him, “Why are you criticizing? They do not criticize you.” So He said, The satan is not going to speak against themselves.” You see, is the only the holy person can see these two things. He is the only one who discriminates that these are satanic.

I: I don’t understand. I don’t quite understand what you are saying. Could you repeat that?

Shri Mataji: You see, if the satanic persons are there, they will always say that there’s no satan. How will they say there is a Satan? Because, then they will be found out. So they always say there is no satan; every thing is good, every thing is fine and that’s how you enter into the lion’s den, you see. To be really [not clear – molested?] to be tortured. But this is the only way one can say.

I: All right, we’ll start after the break… [Announcement] We will now take some calls… Hello, yes good evening…

QM: Hello, how are you?

I: I am well. Thank you.

QM: Look, can I ask Mataji a question or…?

I: Yes please, She’s listening to you.

QM: Right. Mataji, how do we get the baptism as described by Christ? I think You said, “You must be baptised in the Holy Spirit.”

Shri Mataji: You see, we have a center within us, as I told you before, between the pineal and pituitary body on the Optic Chiasma. A subtle center is there which is the center of Christ. Now, when you raise the Kundalini you find that at this spot the Kundalini stops if you have a little problem with Christ. For example, if you have been following Christ in a wrong way, in an unauthorized way without understanding Him or if you are not a forgiving person also, you might get this center blocked completely. This is the door, which leads to the limbic area, which is the kingdom of God. Now, when this center is blocked and you see the Kundalini just pulsating there, then you have to take the name of Christ. A Sahaja yogi has to take the name of Christ and request Christ that, “Please be awakened on this center”. When he says only Christ’s name, no other name, and that of Mary, then only this Kundalini rises through that center. Christ’s other name in Sanskrit language is Maha Vishnu. So you can also take His name as Maha Vishnu by which the Kundalini rises; you see it. And the person becomes thoughtlessly aware. That’s how you get your realization through Christ only, as far as this center is concerned; because this is the last center where you enter into the realm of limbic area, which is actually the kingdom of God. But from there, you have to get realization through another center, which is the last one.

I: Can I ask just here how, how this all comes about? Does one meditate? How does one start this all happening?

Shri Mataji: It’s like, as I told you, that they… in the beginning they stretch their hands or you can say the palms towards Me as we do in the Namaz and then…

I: That’s stretching the hands out?

Shri Mataji: Yes, stretching the hands. Yes, like that. And then from the fingers ends the energy flows inside and invites the Kundalini; tells that there is somebody who is the authority. Then the Kundalini starts rising. It’s a very quick thing. Some people get it in a split of a second – if their Kundalini is all right; if they are simple people, not complicated; ia they do not have any emotional problems and all that. They are very quick; they just get it in no time. But those who have problems have these pulsations. You can see them going here and there. If you have a liver problem, you see the Kundalini going to the liver and just sitting there and giving energy to sustain it. Like that. Then it rises gradually and you see the gradual progress of the Kundalini. And those who have got anywhere obstruction, you have to say a mantra or a chanting or an awakening thing which awakens a particular Deity.

I: So, it is a sort of meditation?

Shri Mataji: You become in meditation. You cannot meditate, you become. It is the becoming; you cannot do meditation. There is no technique for it; it’s a happening which is spontaneous. But afterwards when you have got realization, when your Kundalini is awakened, to increase its expansion, to have better Chakras and all that, you can repair it with a technique. But after realization, not before it. You have to make your car start to see where there is mistake, you see.

I: Right. So You are saying at this point once you’ve taken the Kundalini into you or opened yourself up to the Kundalini, that you can then call upon God or Christ to, into you?

Shri Mataji: No, Christ is within you. He resides in this point, as I told you, in the Agnya Chakra which is placed between the subtle center between the pituitary and the pineal body. He is there, but He is not yet awakened. In the sense, He is awakened by Himself but He is not come in our consciousness. When the Kundalini reaches there, She suggests that there is a… Christ is not allowing the Kundalini to pass through. He is not allowing, He is not happy, so you have to request Him that, “please allow the Kundalini to pass. But this request must go from a realized soul, from an authorized person or you can even sometimes maneuver it by giving some vibrations in that area through your hand, or may be through the photograph or something, and then the Kundalini rises. You have to take His name. That is what…

I: Now, how is this different from what Christians say when they say you should open up and let the Christ, let Christ into you? Is that the same thing?

Shri Mataji: No, because that’s just a lip service. This is a real thing; if it doesn’t happen, doesn’t happen. It happens, it happens. It’s just a lip service – nothing happens to your fontanel bone area after baptism, nothing happens to your eyes. It should be dilated when it is opened out. Nothing happens to you, it’s just a lip service. You do like this. It’s all artificial like, I’d say that “you eat this food”, there is no food; “you take it in your hand”, there’s no plate. You just imagine that there is plate, there is food and you eat, will you get the satisfaction?

I: “Interesting”, I don’t know whether the call of yours, the question, has been answered.

QM: [Not clear]

I: Thanks for calling. The caller mentioned “baptism as described by Christ”. What did he mean by that?

Shri Mataji: This is the same thing He said. Every word that He said is to be proved today through realization, because after realization you are connected to the mains and a rapport is established.

I: What did He say? That follow me and you will… [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji: Yes He said, “you have to be born again.” Again and again He said, “you have to be born again.” But when I went to America and I said, “You have to be born again”, so everybody was sitting with tape-recorder and all that and they taped all My speeches. And people warned Me that they will publish books, these are writers. So I said, “Let them publish.” So they started also some cults saying, “Born again,” you see. How can you have self-certification like that? If you are born again, you should be able to tell about the Chakras of another person in your own Chakras and about the Kundalini. Isn’t it?

I: What’s a Chakra?

Shri Mataji: Chakras are the subtle centers through which this Kundalini rises. These are subtle centers within us placed in our backbone and also in the brain, which are the milestones of our evolution.

I: All right, well… As the caller said, it’s a bit mind blowing but we’ll keep talking about it. And let’s talk about Self-realization as Mataji Nirmala Devi sees it. She is indeed a remarkable person and has given us an awful lot to talk about. Some of it is very difficult, I guess, to understand. It’s a concept that I certainly have not heard about before. And all the talk about the energy within us, the life-forces within us… And so many people have talked about the forces we are supposed to have within our Spirit or our Soul or physical and spiritual bodies. Tonight we are talking to someone who has a definite concept of what that’s all about and if you would like to talk to Her… [Advert]

I: And tonight on the Forum, we are looking at the subject of Self Realization and talking about Sahaja Yoga and its practice and my guest tonight is Mataji Nirmala Devi. And perhaps just to recap, I can read from the brochure about Sahaja Yoga and its practice. After many years of careful and tremendously successful experimentation we feel it is time to tell all genuine seekers that Sahaja Yoga, the discovery of Her Holiness Mataji Nirmala Devi, can definitely take one to the higher dimensions of consciousness, which has been promised by all the scriptures. It opens within us the central channel leading to the inner space of peace and joy, of complete integration and harmony; it happens. Sleeping within each of us there is a potential, spiritual energy called Kundalini. This Shakti, and a very complex mechanism relating to it, is not revealed before the happening of Self Realization. At this blessed moment, Kundalini rises within the spine and pierces the fontanel membrane at the top of the head. The subject feels, then, pervaded by total silence and exquisite well-being. He is absolutely aware but without thoughts and He feels in his hands a kind of wind of vibrations. The experience can be weak or, on the contrary, very powerful depending upon the conditions of the inner mechanism of the subject at the time of the experience. The guidances of the great Sadgurus, Sadgurus of the past who taught us the rules of Dharma who are meant to keep this delicate mechanism fit for Kundalini rising.

Well, that’s part of this thing called Sahaja Yoga and that’s what we’vebeen talking about. My guest is the discoverer, is Mataji Nirmala Devi and She is here to talk to us tonight.

I: Can I ask you what these words Dharma and Karma… what do they mean?

Shri Mataji: Dharma is the sustenance, sustenance within us. A I told you before that human beings have ten sustenances as described – ten commandments in the Bible. This is the sustenance of human beings. If he has to be a human being, he has to have these sustenances within them. In the animals the sustenance is there with no free will for the animals to change it. For example, a lion remains a lion, a mango remains a mango; It cannot change itself. But human beings can become a lion or a scorpion or can become even a snake or can become a tiger. So human beings only have the free will to change their sustenance. But to be human being is very important, so that you become a super human being. Unless and until you have Dharma within you, you cannot go beyond it. Because these sustenances then get enlightened, then you become. Then you have no temptations. Nobody has to tell you, “Do not get into temptation.” Nobody has to tell you then, “don’t tell lies”; nobody has to tell you that, “don’t steal.” You just don’t do it because you become that. You become that light. This is what happens through Kundalini awakening. The another word is Karma is very interesting. Karma is the fruit of the action that we have been doing, whether good or bad. Now, this was all said very long, long time back, much before Christ when people had all their sins and all their Karmas or good things or bad things stored in them, and they had no way of getting out of it. They had to go through various circles of birth and rebirth, again and again, to overcome all those things. For example, a person, say, he is an ardent Muslim. So he will be born an ardent Hindu next life. Like that he goes on choosing and ultimately he reaches certain conclusions that you have to be in the center, you don’t have to go any extremes. You are not to be a fanatic or you are not to deny God. But you reach a stage where it is beyond you. Then Christ came on this Earth as the son of God and He died for our sins. Means He is the one who has created a door for us by which our Karmas can be absorbed. So now, when the Kundalini rises, when She crosses through this Agnya Chakra, the position I told you where Christ resides within us is a subtle center between the pituitary and peneal body on the Optic Chiasma is the one. That one gets opened up and that allows the Kundalini to suck your ego and superego, both. So taking out all that is supposed to be the Karma and that’s how, when the Kundalini awakens, She takes most of it. Your Karmas just dissolves – if the force is great, the whole of it can be dissolved. But…

I: So Karma is like your, your sins?

Shri Mataji: No, it is a myth. Actually it is a myth because for animals there is no, nothing like Karma because animals do not think they are doing anything. If a, if a tiger has to attack a man, He has to attack because he must eat. He doesn’t think it’s a sin. But human beings in their freedom start feeling they are doing it. You see, they think they are doing this. They are doing nothing. They are just doing dead work. You see this is all dead – from dead to the dead. Can you ask anyone of them to transform a flower into fruit? Human beings do not do one living work. It’s only dead work they do. Like some birds take some straws and make a nest; they don’t think we have done something. But human beings, they say, “Oh, we have built this building, we have done this”, and also they have harnessed some of the material powers, you see, like electricity, you can say, and other things. And then they think we have done this and we have done that – is a myth. And this myth drops out because living work is very different from what is a dead work is. So this myth that “I am doing”, just drops out.

I: Interesting. All right, let’s take another call… Hello.

QM: Good evening. There are a lot of things to say. I have to start off by asking, “Is the Christ the conscious contact between the human and the Divine and was this link recognized and protected by the man Jesus?”

Shri Mataji: No, He could not. You did not allow Him, He was crucified. I wish it could have been done that time but it was not. You just… it was very premature. You never… the people never gave Him any chance. I mean they just crucified Him for nothing at all. They never understood, they never recognized.

I: But is the Christ the link between man and the Divine?

Shri Mataji: Of course. He is the door.

I: The door?

Shri Mataji: Yes, but He is not the destination. Destination is the Spirit which is also Christ, in a way, which can be explained later on, if they come to our center; how Christ is everywhere. Because He is the embodiment of Divine Love; He is the embodiment of that Power which flows in your hand. He is the Spirit.

I: Well, the Man, the Man Jesus, if we had let Him live, would have been able to open this door for all of us?”

Shri Mataji: It should have happened, but they did not. One could have worked it out, but it’s rather difficult.

QM: He obviously did recognize the [UNCLEAR] else He would’nt have been able to resurrect Himself?

Shri Mataji: Yes, He will.

I: The point the caller was making was, “Christ did realize this and He was able to resurrect Himself.”

Shri Mataji: You see He was, He was the Divine Power. Nobody can kill Divine Power. That’s what Krishna had said that it cannot be killed and that’s what He proved. What Krishna said He proved it very well that He cannot be killed and that’s how He was resurrected. And that resurrection is the message of Christianity that you all should be resurrected. You should become your Spirit and not this body.

QM: That is He is saying to us, “Don’t make Me an idol, make Me the Ideal.

I: He is saying that Christ said, “Don’t make Me an idol, make Me the ideal.”

Shri Mataji: That’s true. You see, if you now get your realization you will understand Him much better. You will do full justice to Him and you’ll recognize Him also and you’ll recognize Me. You never recognize. None of you could recognized any one of the incarnations who came on this Earth, and how we tortured them and troubled them. But now after realization, through your vibrations you can recognize because if Christ comes, you will see, the vibrations in your hand will increase tremendously.

I: How many? Have there been any other, I am not just putting a question here, have there been any other men apart from Jesus, who have been as Holy as Jesus was?

Shri Mataji: There have been so many incarnations of different aspects of God on this Earth. Much before Christ was, the first one was that of Shri Rama, we can say, as a human being who came and He lived like an ideal King. Because, He had to say what an ideal King and a ideal Man has to be. And His wife was the Holy Spirit with Him. Then came Krishna, who was another incarnation of Shri Rama, that aspect of a father, and then came Christ. Also Abraham, Moses and Mohammed Sahib, Nanak, Janak, all these great people.

I: These are all Holy men?

Shri Mataji: These are, these are prophets and these prophets are actually the embodiment of a principle called as Primordial Master, Adiguru and they incarnated on this Earth. And the main of them are ten and they reside in the visceral cavity we have in the stomach.

I: Are you, are you a prophet? Are you an incarnation, yourself?

Shri Mataji: That you better find out. I am not going to say anything about Myself because whenever they try to say the truth even, we crucified, Christ only tried to say that. Krishna told to one disciple only. Rama never told even to His father. And if I now do not take advantage of experiences, then it won’t be good.

I: (laughs) (both) ….okay (Mother Laughs)….

Shri Mataji: I must be something. But if you had the knowledge of Hindu scriptures you would know what I must be. The way Kundalini rises in My presence it has a definite significance and it is described very clearly what sort of a person can do that.

QM: What is the spelling of this particular form of yoga?

I: S a h a j a

QM: What does the Mataji think of, or what can She say about people called Siddha people?

I: Are they in Australia? I think we have to be careful that we are not talking about any particular groups. I don’t think we want to name any particular group…

Shri Mataji: No, No, No, No. There is no need to have any controversy. Only thing you should judge, one thing – what have they achieved; have they got their own powers? Those who are followers. This is the main thing. Have you got your own Powers? Are you Master of yourself? Do you know what you are doing? Do you know? Can you feel others, can you feel yourself? Can you say exactly, what’s wrong with you? Exactly can you say what’s wrong with others? This is what it is. Are you fully aware? That’s how you judge yourself. Not by names and things, is not proper. Because, have you achieved it?

I: I think that’s the answer of the question.

QM: I read a series of books called “Life’s teachings of the Masters of the far east” written by an American who was born in India and migrated…

I: What is it called?

QM: The Life and teachings of the masters of the Far East.

I: And who was it by?

QM: A man named Spaulding. He wrote them over a number of years. The first in 1924 and the last in 1955 and he is talking about a journey in India, in the Himalayas and he was quoting from ancient preachings and these preachings were attributed to these people called Siddha. And this name of course pops up in a lot of Indian literature and…

I: Siddha?

QM: Siddha. There’s another word [INAUDIBLE] This word Siddha seems to pop up in a lot of reading that I have done.

I: I request Mataji to comment. What is Siddha?

Shri Mataji: I’ll tell you. Siddha means the one who has got realization, who has been proved, who has got realization. But not… you cannot have a self-certificate “I am a ” by paying some money to some one, you see, or by doing something. It is a happening, which is living happening. Again I say that there is no effort. You cannot put in any effort. What effort did you put to become a human being from a monkey? You just became spontaneously. In the same way it is effortless. It should just happen effortlessly, that is first thing. And you cannot pay for it. Now, the books, and books and books, they are to be written. This is another kind of exploitation – is to write books about somebody. If an American goes to India, or anybody goes to India, did he have eyes to see? Did he have eyes to recognize? How can he say anything about somebody who is a Siddha or not? You cannot make out anybody who is a Siddha or not unless and until you are a realized soul yourself. You must have eyes to see. In darkness if you walk and you are blind, what are you going to write? I mean, I have seen people writing huge books about Kundalini and they don’t know where the Kundalini is. I mean, it’s surprising such honest people how they indulge into this because somebody writes. How much does it take to write? You take… I mean you pay little money and you just can write any book you feel like. How many books did Christ read? There’s no need to read any book. By reading if you are going to get realization then it’s a very surprising thing.

I: But Siddha is someone who has…

Shri Mataji: That means that. I mean this is elf-certification, you see. Just say that you are a Siddha because you have paid so much money, fees or something like that. That’s not the way. Siddha is a person who is a Self Realized person, who is, who is being proved. Siddha means the one who has been proved to be a realized person, and that’s a high state where you are collectively conscious; that you know how to raise the Kundalini; that you can give realization and that you understand everything. The whole technique of it is the Siddha; not the one who, who pays the money and becomes a something. It’s not that way.

I: “Does that answer your question?”

QM: Oh, yes. I was aware that money should not be the object. The thing is in what direction you are going. When you see the cost, it’s obviously not…

I: We’ve got people waiting with their questions.

QM: All right.

I: Thanks for calling. [Radio station specifics] My guest tonight is a yogi and a mother who is Mataji Nirmala Devi, who is here to give a program of public talks to Her followers and anybody who would like to come along. The dates for the talks for those who are interested (we had lot of people calling to find out) will be this Wednesday and this Friday night at Maccabean Hall, 146, Darling Hurst Road, Darling Hurst at 7.30 p.m. If you would like to hear Mataji talk. Mataji, You did say that this energy that we can get from You perhaps can be got through the Radio, from your voice, by reaching out hands, palms facing upwards…

Shri Mataji: Yes, and listening to me. If you put your hands towards Me, facing towards Me as if you are asking for something. and if you listen to Me, I think it can work out. Because in big roofs like six thousand and seven thousand people in India where we don’t have such good system of also broadcasting and I have seen people getting Realization only through My voice and they don’t even see Me so clearly. Now what you have to do is to just stretch your hands towards Me thinking that I am there and close your eyes. Now…

I: Not if you are driving?

Shri Mataji: Not. if you’re driving. Then you have to stop your car for a while because your, your eyes might get dilated. So it’s better to stop your car and just stretch your hands and if you could loosen your feet from your shoes will be a better idea. Even to take out your feet out of your shoes will be good idea, and a loosen little bit of your tie if you have any and sit in a relaxed manner. Now, for raising the Kundalini I’ll have to see the different centers, normally, that you catch, you see, and in general I will be able to tell you what is to be done. Now, what I feel is (that) the first center that you are catching now is the center where you are feeling guilty; because when I talk to you, you must have picked up on some words which makes you feel guilty. And this again I have to tell you that you should not feel guilty any more. Because Christ has done the job for you. So you should say, “I am not guilty.” It’s a very big fashion, in Australia specially, to feel guilty all the time. I don’t know what is the training is.

I: To be a sinner, original sinner.

Shri Mataji: No you are not. Your sins have been taken away. Why? What’s the use of Christ coming on this Earth? If you are a originally sinner, all right. Now, why did He come on this Earth? So you should say, “I am not guilty.” Get over this feeling. “I am not guilty.” That’s another thing the Christians are doing now is to ask people to confess. Why to confess? I mean Christ has done that for you. Whatever you have been committed, sins and all that, will be forgiven. If the Kundalini rises, it’s all forgiven. So you have to go on saying that, “I am not guilty.” I can feel the center now, sitting down here. Most of you are having this very big center in you saying that you are guilty. First of all you have to go on saying thrice or four times that, “I am not guilty.” It’s very important. Then the second center, which you are catching, is also very Australian style combination. What we call is the left navel center. It comes from your spleen. That means you are a speedy person. You are extremely speedy and you talk telescopically, you walk telescopically. You have no time for breakfast, no time for lunch and you make your spleen absolutely crazy. And this crazy spleen is a very dangerous thing. It leads you ultimately to something very, very serious which I would not like to mention to frighten you. But this speediness must be brought down. Now, to bring the speediness down, what you have to say that, “I have all the time for Meditation. I have all the time for God. I have all the time for everything. I am not in a hurry at all. Just say like that; it will help you a lot. “I am not in a hurry.” That’s the thing. At this time, specially in such a relaxed program, at least at this time you can say, “oh I am not in a hurry.” Just say that. This will bring down your speed. You are extremely speedy and that shows on My fingers and on My toes. I can feel it that you are speedy. Then, some of you have been to unauthorized Gurus and to unauthorized people. In that case you have to say, “Mother, am I my own Guru?” Just ask the question thrice; just say, “Mother, am I my own Guru?” If I say that, again you catch on the guilt. If I say anything you don’t catch on the guilt because once you say, “I am not guilty”, you are not guilty for anything. So when I say to you, you just say this what I am saying that “Am I my own Guru, Mother, after realization?” Just ask the question. Now another thing we have to do is to forgive others. Really we should forgive. Go on saying, “I forgive everyone. Mother, I forgive everyone”; say it thrice. It will help you. It will relax you very much. Go on saying, “I forgive.” Actually, Lord’s Prayer is a mantra. Is a chanting on the same Agnya Chakra I told you, where Christ resides, on the Optic Chiasma. That’s what you have to say. “I forgive. I forgive. I forgive.” Moreover, when you don’t forgive, what are you doing? It’s a myth. You are just torturing yourself for others. You are not torturing them whom you are not forgiving. It is they who are torturing you, and you are playing into their hands. So you go on saying, “I forgive. I forgive. I forgive. I forgive all of them.” This will relax you very much. You’ll have no thought in your mind. Close your eyes. Closing of the eyes is important because when the Kundalini rises, there is dilatation of the pupil. So better close your eyes. Now, you have to say that “Mother forgive us”, or you can say to God that, “Pplease forgive us if we have done anything knowingly or unknowingly against God.” This is to be said without feeling guilty, again. Without feeling guilty you should say that because once you say it, it is forgiven. It is forgiven. Then there should be no guilt. If it is forgiven, why should there be a guilt?

This is a big disease, I think, in the west to feel guilty about everything. You have to get over. This is a very bad disease and it gives you lots of problems starting from Spondylitis of the neck, and then rest of them come after that. So not to feel guilty at all. You have to love yourself and you must know that you are men of God and women of God, are to be made prophets. And once you are made prophets, you can make others prophets. This is what William Blake has said about the times of Sahaja Yoga. He has clearly said all these things. Not only He has said where we are going to have a Ashram in Lambethway, we have our Ashram in the Runes [UNCLEAR], the foundations will be laid. He has said also where I will first go to England – is the Surrey Hills. All these things He has so clearly said it. It’s all going to happen to you because you deserve it. Now after saying, “forgive me” thrice, you have to ask for your realization. You say, “Mother, give me my Realization.” Say twice, thrice and you start feeling the cool breeze in your hand. After sometime you’ll find even the cool breeze coming out of your head, on top of your head on the fontanel bone area. You will find there’s cool breeze coming out like a jet. And if there is air conditioning, you better close it because it will quite cool now. You’ll feel very relaxed, extremely relaxed, will be thoughtless. Now don’t think about it, it has not happened to you by thinking. So don’t think about it; it is beyond thinking. And do come and see Me in Macabean Hall, where you will have to grow more and understand more about it. It’s like the sprouting of the seed, which has, which takes place without much difficulties. But as Christ Himself has said that “Some seeds fell on the rock and some fell in the waste in the same time”, it happens with us also. So it is better to know how to make this germination manifest itself into a big tree.

May God bless you all.

I: You are listening to the Forum and my guest to night is Mataji Nirmala Devi and She is talking tonight about Self-realization and I hope you are enjoying the program. It is interesting to me; It is something quite different. Mataji will be giving a program of talks this Wednesday and this Friday night at 7.30 at Macabean Hall, Dunning Hurst road, Dunning Hurst.

Mother, I am not sure what to call You. I don’t know what I should call You. How do I describe what You are?

Shri Mataji: Just call Me Mother. That’s all, sufficient.

I: Does that describes what You are?

Shri Mataji: Yes, that describes everything.

I: All right. We have with us the Mother.

QL: Hello Mother.

Shri Mataji: Yes.

QL: I wanted to know, is the cool breeze that You have spoken about, you feel on the hands the cool wind of the Holy Spirit, as spoken about in the Bible?

Shri Mataji: Yes. Yes, yes, same thing, same thing. You have done the good job now, I must say.

I: Is it the Holy Spirit?

Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, is the Holy Spirit.

QL: Aha… I am feeling it now on my hand through the [not clear]

Shri Mataji: It’s good.

I: Did you want to say anything more than that?

QL: No, I just… That’s all I wanted to know because I…

Shri Mataji: Because you are thoughtless now. Enjoy yourself.

QL: Thank you

I: Hello

QL: Hello

I: Yes, good evening.

QL: Good evening, and good evening Mother Mataji.

QL: “Mother, when You began Your program, I think I heard You say that cancer invading the body could be an evil spirit. Is that what is understood?

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. It comes through, you see, invasion of some of these things within you. Even a virus infection is coming from some vegetables who where out of circulation of evolution…

QL: Yes…

Shri Mataji: are affecting virus. And also these other proteins they talk of are nothing but some sort of a infection from the collective subconscious area from the left hand side. That’s what I have seen so far in the all the cancer patients that either they have been to black magic, or their parents have been to someone, or they’ve been to some sort of a clairvoyance or some sort of a thing like that, or one of these Gurus or some sort of like that, which is an unauthorized things to deal. Even psychologist can do that.

I: So you are saying, You believe that Cancer is an Evil Spirit?

Shri Mataji: No, I didn’t say that. Cancer is triggered by an entry of some sort of an unauthorized handling of the left sympathetic nervous system, to put it very precisely and scientifically.

QL: Yea, I tried to understand You Mother Mataji, but not quite. My father had cancer and I developed it six years ago in exactly the same part of my body as my father had it.

Shri Mataji: Yes. May be your father is to be told that “I am all right. Don’t worry about me. You get your birth and get your realization.

QL: yes

Shri Mataji: And he can leave you. And you can be perfectly all right if he leaves you, because he is worried about you.

QL: Yes. And an another thing Mother. My daughter had a very serious car accident and she has epilepsy through the injury to her brain. I, I cannot accept her. It is over fifteen years ago. I haven’t been able to accept this crippling of her body and I wonder if your Sahaja Yoga would help me.

Shri Mataji: It is still helping, but is she a seeker?

I: She said her daughter. Her daughter had a car accident and developed epilepsy…

QL: But I have not accepted to see that beautiful body of my daughter now so crippled and I cannot… I try very hard to accept it. But I can’t, Mother.

Shri Mataji: See, you can cure her through Sahaja Yoga. You must come and see me at the Maccabean Hall and I’ll tell you how to do it. It’s not difficult.

QL: Yes.

Shri Mataji: But if the bones are been removed, and if doctors have put some sort of a dead material, then I won’t be able to work it out.

QL: But the doctors have told me that there are so many cells of the brain that are absolutely dead and will never ever be regenerated.

Shri Mataji: Let us see, we might try.

I: I think, perhaps I should say that we are not in the business of healing people over the radio and it think it will lead to a lot of trouble if we pretend we are so that’s not what we are suggesting. Mother Mataji is simply saying that she believes that this may work out. So the best thing is perhaps to go and see Her.

QL: Very well. Thank you.

I: It’s an area we’ve got be careful with I think.[News break)…..(Advertisement] My guest is Mataji Nirmala Devi and She is from… originally from India and is now living in England and She is touring Australia for a series of lectures. This week it’ll be on Wednesday and Friday night at 7.30 at the Maccabean Hall.

I: “Mataji, I wondered if I can just ask you about the daily troubles that we have. For instance, I am generally worrying about my business and financial pressures and so on that I have in a business I set up it goes up and down all the time. How does this sort of approach help us sort out daily, daily worries like financial worries?

Shri Mataji: Within us we have a center which is called as the Navel Center which is responsible for looking after our well being – financial, material all these day-to-day problems as you call it. Shri Krishna has said that, “After yoga I look after your well being, but after yoga.” First you must be united with the Divine Power, then you become a member, or you can say a citizen, of God’s owned province and He looks after you. As your government, Australian Government looks after you, in the same way the Divine Power looks after you and your financial problems gets solved. They get completely solved. But you do not get over rich or extremely rich. If you are very poor you become all right. The main thing is the satisfaction that you get out of your endeavors and your financial things. For example: I will give you a simple example of this thing. They came and they asked Me, “Mother, what would you like to buy in Australia?” They told Me, “We import everything here, so what would you like to buy?” I said, “I would like to see a crockery shop.” Now, they took Me. They wanted to take Me to a particular crockery shop. But they took Me to another one saying that you cannot park the car here and there I met a lady who was given realization a year back and is a great seeker. But she is lost because she started sort of getting more busy with other things of life, mundane life and I just met her there. And after meeting her, it was such a, such a satisfaction to her, she said “Mother, I couldn’t come to your program so you have come all the way just to see me”. And they couldn’t understand why I wanted to go to a crockery shop, you see. Now what happens that when you are realized, your dimensions are so much alert that you start seeing things in a much better perspective. Like a business, immediately you know how far to go with it, the acumen, the business acumen as they say – just start getting you that enlightenment. For example, there was a gentleman who had lost his job when he came to Me. He got his realization and I told him, “All right, now you do some business.” He said, “What should I do?” I said, “All right, start with carpentry”, because, because of Christ I think I like carpentry very much. He said, “Carpentry, I am very bad at it.” I said, “All right, take to interior decoration.” He said, “I don’t know what is the wood is. I don’t know.”

I: Sorry, I did not quite follow… He said…

Shri Mataji: I don’t know what wood is. I mean, I don’t know what are the different styles of woods are, what is vineer, I don’t know a word about it. I said, “You will know everything. Just try your vibratory awareness.” And he started his decoration and he got lots of people coming to him and asking for him; and he just started arranging all the different woods and different styles of things and people were very happy with it; and he has made remarkable things. He has made lot of money out of it and people are still calling him for that work because he just suddenly developed that awareness by which he produced things, which were aesthetic and were appealing to people. Another thing is, those evil forces also bring you down. Like, we had a gentleman in Poona who was very bad at his business. Nobody would come to his shop and he was not selling anything. He said, “Mother, will you come to my shop one day?” I said, “It’s rather difficult for Me. But one day I’ll just… If I can, I’ll just drop in.” I went there. After that he started getting lots of people in his shop and now he’s become a rich man. He couldn’t understand why, how it has happened. Only My going there has worked so much.

Second Part
QL: ….Spirituality. Would Mataji say any of these cults are valid, or is Sahaja Yoga the only true path?

I: Is this Sahaja Yoga the only true path?

Shri Mataji: I wouldn’t say so bluntly, because you’ll be shocked. But I’ll tell you the other way round that if you have to germinate the seed, what do you do? You have to sprout the germination. Isn’t it? You have to germinate the primule of a seed. Isn’t that… That’s the only way you do it. Isn’t it? There’s no way, other way out. So in the same way, if you have to get your realization, it’s only the Kundalini awakening and it is done through Sahaja Yog only. But today it has taken a shape of Maha Yog. Means a great happening by which there is en mass realization. There are people who are getting realization in a mass. It’s not only one individual or two individual, but masses after masses have to get realization. Now if you say, “Which is the way a flower has to become a fruit?” There’s only one way. There are no two ways. Living things do not have two ways and five alternatives. These are all for human beings to take lots of decisions and do all these things. But for any living thing, it’s only one way it works out and that’s how it is. The germination within you, which is a living force of the living God, is the only way – is the Kundalini awakening. And that’s why we can say Sahaja is the only way. It is; there’s no other way out.

QL: Well, Mataji, for those people who are seeking and who don’t want to come to Sahaja Yoga, what’ll happen to them?

Shri Mataji: You see, they should come. Why not? They, they will all come and I can see your concern. Same concern I have. But they go after circuses; they go after people who are false; those who take money from them; those who befool them. They do not want to come to reality. What can you do about it? The choice is your own.

QL: Thank you very much.

I: Thanks for calling. What happens if they don’t come?

Shri Mataji: They just don’t come because they don’t like reality. See they crucified Christ, why? They didn’t like Him, why?

I: They were frightened?

Shri Mataji: They were frightened; they are just frightened for nothing at all. Perhaps they are possessed, some of them. They are ego oriented?

I: All right. It’s three minutes to eleven…Hello…

QL: [Not clear] I would like to ask a few questions. You mentioned that diseases are only expressions of spiritual and emotional disarray.

I: You mentioned that diseases are expression of emotional and…

Shri Mataji: Physical imbalances.

QL: That asthma could be caused by one of a person’s parents dying young. I, I’ve always believed that diseases are caused by an expression of spiritual disarray because someone is not obeying their karma. I wonder if you would like to elaborate a bit on that? Is it the bad karma not being obeyed or could have some result for instance. Or is a disease caused because of one’s parents, a child’s parents died young. [UNCLEAR]

I: Mataji is having difficulty in understanding you. If you could just speak a little more slowly.

QL: You mentioned, in speaking, that diseases are caused by spiritual and emotional disarray in a person. I am interested to know, or to reconcile, how some diseases could be caused – you mentioned asthma for instance – could be caused in a person?

Shri Mataji: You see, first you mentioned about karma. First thing I must tell you, what we understand in karma is something very, very narrow also. You see, supposing you are in imbalance, all right? Now, if your father or anybody’s father, for example, you are too attached to your father, and if such a thing happens that your father leaves you or something happens like that, your principle of father in you is shaken. I mean this is not your karmas, but this is your father’s karma that it shakes you. Or may be his death is not your karma nor his karma. But something like that happens while you have been so attached that, that portion is shaken up, because human beings are very delicate things. As they are very aware they have to be extremely delicate and very beautifully made. As you see any machinery, which is very sensitive, is extremely delicate. In the same way, human beings are extremely sensitive and delicate and we don’t know how to handle ourselves. That’s why the problems come in. But the karma business is very gross stuff.

I: Mataji, I would just stop you there and we will come back to this after the news. We must pause for the network news, we….

QL: Yes, Thank you.

I: Thank you. Right, and we’ll be back after the news and we’ll talk some more about Self-realization and stay tuned with us… (News) Tonight we are talking about Self-realization and my guest is Mataji Nirmala Devi and She is here tonight to talk about the technique, perhaps, by which we can free ourselves from the physical and emotional and mental disorders that are caused by the stresses of modern life as they say, one way to put it. Just before the news we were talking to a caller and we were talking about karma, which to put it in modern terms would be all pluses and minuses of your past life, of your life until now and this is within you, and the caller was asking whether this is responsible for illness and Mataji is answering. I think, if I’ve got it right, that we don’t need to feel guilty and we don’t need to get any poison out of ourselves, and we don’t need to try to clear ourselves of past deeds or past sins but we need to progress now to a higher state of consciousness of Self-realization and let’s ask the caller. Are you there?

QL: Yes.

I: Mataji was talking about karma.

QL: Right. She has answered the question. Can I ask another one?

I: Sure

QL: About the Kundalini… I have a friend who meditated for about six or eight hours. He has unfortunately gone through an awful, emotional experience. He did not experience the cool breeze but rather a burning fire.

Shri Mataji: That’s very true. If you do not know how to do it, you get all these problems. Like villagers coming to the city, putting their hands into the plug and saying that the electricity only burns you. You see, it is to be done by a person who knows the job, who is authorized and such a person has to be a holy person. It cannot be done, everyone. So somebody who knows the job, in the sense not scientifically but through the authority of God, should be able to do it. So it is always the fire and all these business come because, not the Kundalini that punishes you. Kundalini is your own individual Mother. She does not punish. But there is a deity, sitting at the base of the Kundalini. It gets very annoyed and it starts lashing you on the sympathetic nervous system. But it’s not that only you feel fire. Sometimes people even get blisters and things. Is a wrong way of doing a thing.

I: Just from meditation?

Shri Mataji: Yes. You see, if you try to do… there are certain nonsensical things they do, which I do not want to talk here. But all these nonsensical things can lead to problems.

QL: Another question? Regards, I guess it regards karma and dharma once again. God said that we were all created equal and we are. But then, we are not born equal. And we’re not born equal because of our past and our reincarnations. I was wondering if in the end whether we will all have been reincarnated the same number of times, every person on earth?

I: Is there an end? Are we heading to an end where we will all be reincarnated the same number of times?

Shri Mataji: Yes, you are reincarnated again and again. Improved on to, like an instrument is always improved on one after another, isn’t it? But now the time has come for you to manifest the purpose for which you have been made. So you become that like a light is in the process of being made till it becomes a light. Then it is put to the mains. Then what is the job of the light? Is just to give the light; It has become that now.

I: Right, is there an end to… Is there an end for all of this at one point? Are we all heading to one end?

Shri Mataji: You see, first you get germinated, then you grow into a tree. Then you want to come back again to help others. It’s out of compassion.

I: But there’s no end; it keeps going?

Shri Mataji: And if you want to end it, you can end it. But you like it. You want to come back again and again to help people.

I: But for all of us, there’s no end?

Shri Mataji: I mean it is, it is later on when you are realized soul it is your own free will, if you want to continue or don’t want to continue. You are not forced to come down.

QL: Ma’m Mataji, if you accomplish all your karma in one life and you do good, why would you keep coming back continually?

Shri Mataji: You see, the karma theory is now over as I told you. There’s nothing like karmas left any more. You see, Christ has opened that center for us in which the chakras, you see, are all get completely enlightened and when the Kundalini rises, She sucks in the ego within you which makes you feel that you have done this karma and that karma. Right?

I: So, you are saying that Christ really has taken all the sins?

Shri Mataji: Yes, He has definitely. I mean He doesn’t tell lies. So He has done it. Now, the main thing is that when you die after realization, if you want you can come back, because out of compassion. You come on this Earth out of compassion, to help people because you are part and parcel of the whole. Is a different thing, now you do not come to take anything but to give.

QL: Good. I feel that there’s this inner thing within us, or within some of us, any way, within us all wants the union with God. And if we achieve that karma, I keep thinking we must want to have union with God and not keep coming back to Earth. I mean, even now if we come back to do good and for compassionate reason…

Shri Mataji: No. I would say that, you see, this is not what you feel or believe. It is what it is. Should be. Now you are thinking too much about the future. You have to think of the present, of this moment, of getting your realization, to be in the present. You shouldn’t think of the future so much, of this… karma is the past. In the future coming and going is… you are not in the present. You are thinking either of the past or of the future because you’ve read a lot, I think, about these things and you just believe in it. Your belief and your feelings are not the truth. You must face them as it is.

I: The caller was talking about the heaven, I think…

Shri Mataji: Yes. Thinking of heaven and all that. But see for yourself, keep your eyes open. I didn’t have any conception of this place, where I’m sitting, this studio. When I came here, I saw it how it is to be worked out and then I decided. If I had decided before hand, it would have been all wrong.

QL: Very true, Thank you.

Shri Mataji: My blessings.

I: Thanks for calling. It’s twelve past eleven and my guest tonight Mataji, Mother Mataji is here to talk about Sahaja Yoga and its practice and Self-realization and She’ll be giving lectures, talks, on Wednesday night and Friday night at 7.30 at the Maccabean Hall, 146, Darling Hurst Road, Darling Hursy. And. is there any charge or… ?

Shri Mataji: No charge. It’s all free.

I: Okay. There’s no money involved. This is just something She wants to give to you and that might interest many… Hello. Hi, good evening.

QL: I couldn’t listen… [UNCLEAR] Mataji. She did speak on Cancer. I could understand people could I have cancer from a… [UNCLEAR]… But I don’t understand why the small children have cancer. Would She have an answer to this?

I: Why do small children get cancer?

QL: That’s right. Especially if they have healthy parents.

Shri Mataji: There are many other things, which gives cancer to children. One of them is very common is blood cancer. Now blood cancer we give to children ourselves, by our speedy nature, over conditioning. All the time, telling them when they are eating food, “You have to go to school; now get ready; now you have to do it; you should be on time.” All the time putting watches on their heads. This is how we give them blood cancer.

I: We create stress?

Shri Mataji: Stress on them for nothing at all. Then the schools themselves are horrid. Sometimes, the schools give them education which is not needed. They condition them. Then the sex knowledge is not needed to be given to children. It’s just opening them to something that they need not know at all. They are innocent. We disturb their innocence by so many things. Then all your nonsensical pornographies and this and that and talk of sex to innocent children. We really play with their… we should blame our society for that, if not an individual parent. But everybody has to face it. Now this sex education is not needed for children at all. There’s no need. When they grow up, the Mother’s should tell the daughter and the father should tell the son, in a very private and a sacred way. Not to just tell them so openly that they become curious, they start experimenting with it. All that can be possible. Then also, there was a gentle man whose son got cancer at a very young age. They were surprised, how he got cancer, because the man was very good and the child was very small. And then we found out: the grand mother had a habit of taking the child to the, to the, what you call?, the burial grounds and things like that and she always had a great fascination for these places. Even churches have got these dead bodies. Now, what to say? We expose our children without understanding where we are taking them. We put them to stress. So that is the result.

QL: Thank you.

I: Thanks for your call. (Announcements) Hello, good evening.

QM: I would like to ask Mataji a question and… Mataji, I have heard you speak about negative forces and: one, what are these forces? And two, are they causing and increasing problems facing society today?

Shri Mataji: Facing what?

I: Society today.

Shri Mataji: Very much. Now…

QM: First, what are these negative forces you talked about?

I: What are these negative forces?

Shri Mataji: These are the forces that are built during evolutionary processes when people became ambitious or became very sly, and they took to ways and methods which are anti God. They are punished many a times. But they are born now with a vengeance because they want that the last step now, by which human beings are going to get their realization and they are going to solve their problem and the step where they will have a break through in their evolution, they want to stop it. That’s why they are trying to destroy you in so many ways.

I: You are saying we getting very close as a race of human beings to a point where we will all get Self-realization; that time is coming now.

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes very much. That last judgment has started.

I: How long will it last?

Shri Mataji: Depends on how long you take… (Laughs)….(Both of them). You see, maximum time will be given for people to be resurrected.

I: That’s hundreds of years or ten to …

Shri Mataji: Not hundreds. Should not be hundreds. But there should be sufficient time for many people to get realization, and then few are left there because already the hell is full of people there and there isn’t much room for others to go in.

I: And those evil forces are massing too?

Shri Mataji: Yes, they are. They are very much in hands-in-hands and they are all joined together and they are working it out. Destroying our Spirit, destroying our attention from Spirit, they are taking us away from reality. They are doing all kinds of subtle things. It’s all spirits, spirits, spirits; so many of them. But your Spirit, the Spirit that is God within you, is the most powerful thing and once it is enlightened in your awareness, they all run away. They’re frightened.

QM: How important is it for one to gain realization?

Shri Mataji: That’s vital for every one of us. If you are human being, we should know why we are human beings. It would be something a question that, “if you are a lamp, how vital it is for the lamp to be the light?”

QM: Yes. All right, thanks very much.

I: Thanks for your call. (Music)…It’s 21 past 11 AM; 9295555 and the forum we’re talking about Self-realization and Sahaja Yoga. My guest is Mother Mataji, who is here from England…. In fact, you live in London; Your husband is a Diplomat. Is He not?

Shri Mataji: He is elected as the Secretary General of the International Maritime Organization, which is one of the UN agencies. There are fourteen or fifteen secretary generals. He is one of them elected by, I think, one hundred twenty nations. That’s how I’m in England. But, this is temporary. He is reelected again; He has been elected thrice. So we’ve been there for seven years now. Five years more we have to be there.

I: You will keep traveling the world and keep spreading the word?

Shri Mataji: Up to some time. Then I would like to retire. If somebody wants take over from Me, will be a good idea. …..

I: Are there people to take over?

Shri Mataji: Yes. There are very capable people; they can do it. I can stay in one place and they can do it.

I: Do you have any thoughts on the future on what’s going to happen to the world and to all of us?

Shri Mataji: Very optimistic.

I: You are.

Shri Mataji: You are all going to be saved and we are going to have all the blessings of God and all His power is going to flow through us and we are going to enjoy ourselves in full bliss.

I: Sounds wonderful. Let’s take the next call. Hello.

QL: I would like to ask Mother, “Is She not infact preaching a combination of Hinduism, Muslim and Christianity?

I: Are you preaching a combination of religions?

Shri Mataji: Complete integration. I asked… you have seen that through. I’m happy to know that. It’s complete integration. The relationship between different Incarnations and different Prophets is to be established and is to be proved. It can be proved also through Kundalini awakening. You can prove it, how they are related to each other.

QL: Yes, well I believe all religions…

Shri Mataji: That’s very great. But the belief becomes the Truth and you can prove it to others also.

QL: You were asking to know religions. Basically they are worshipping the same but they are just… call this God by different names. But I find it confusing, you were talking about karma, dharma. There has been no mention of Nirvana….

Shri Mataji: No mention about Nirvana because you are not interested in Nirvana so much as they were interested in karma and dharma. Nirvana is the one where you get your freedom by becoming your Spirit. That’s what I’m saying.

QL: Yes. But then, if you follow the Christian teaching, one would believe we should all have this because that’s why Christ died, to give it to us.

Shri Mataji: Yes, you should not have all these problems at all. I mean this is not… that’s what I’m saying.

I: But the caller said we should have Nirvana. If you follow Christ, you should have Nirvana.

Shri Mataji: If you follow in the true sense. That you become a Sahaja Yogi then only you get it. Isn’t it? Not by going to some organized places, where they’ve organized Christ also.

QL: Yes, I agree… You don’t have to go to an organized…

I: You have to find Christ in yourself?

Shri Mataji: Yes, in yourself; through realization. Not the way by just becoming members of something.

QL: Who would You… [UNCLEAR] acquire in Him from Indian religion, the Goddess Kaali?

Shri Mataji: Goddess Kaali…. I think you better come to My program and I’ll tell you all about them. Goddess Kaali……

QL: Who in the Christian teachings would you related to?

Shri Mataji: Goddess Kaali? You see, the Mother of Christ was Maha Lakshmi. Did you hear about that point? She was Maha Lakshmi and Goddess Kaali did not incarnate at the time of Christ.

I: Who is the, who is the equivalent in the Christian religion of the Goddess Kaali? Is there any equivalent in the Christian religion?

Shri Mataji: Is the power of Saint Michael.

I: Saint Michael? Hmm…

QL: [UNCLEAR]

I: Why does Christian religion say, “All children are conceived in sin?” All children are born sinners. Why this? Why does the Christian religion say that?

Shri Mataji: I mean, you were… better go and ask the Christians. I don’t know why they say all these things.

QL: I’ve asked them and they can’t…

Shri Mataji: They can’t, you see, because there are so many ideas they have got in their heads. You see, they’ve… I don’t know. They have grown horns out of Christianity. What am I to do?

QL: Something which is written in the Bible and they……….

Shri Mataji: No, it is not said that you are born in sin.” You see, you said that in the basic sin is there that a man has started thinking for himself. Is the basic thing, is that; he is free to think for himself. By that, the Ego and Super ego develops in a human being and he develops his own independence, as “I” ness, and he is separated from God’s desire; in the sense, he has his own desire exerting itself. This is the basic sin: of separation.

QL: “Yea, but then [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji: Then after Self-realization, you become one with that power. Like all the animals are one with God’s power, they have no free will. We through our free will reach certain conclusions of good and bad and after realization, we are aware. The animals are not aware. But we are aware: what is God’s will is.

I: I think, the caller was saying how do we, how do we reach Self-realization?

Shri Mataji: Through Kundalini awakening. It’s a spontaneous thing. It would be a question like this, “How do we transform a flower into a fruit?” It’s spontaneous. It’s living.

QL: Yes, but in on the one hand you are saying [not clear]… but how can one be expected to get Self-realization without thinking for yourself?

Shri Mataji: Without…?

I: Thinking for yourself.

Shri Mataji: No, because this is beyond thinking, it is spontaneous. By thinking you do not sprout a seed. Do you? It is a spontaneous thing. We must understand living processes first of all.

QL: But then…

Shri Mataji: By thinking you do not, do not live. You see, living process is different from, thinking is dead.

I: Automatic.

Shri Mataji: It is automatic.

I: Like the heart beat?

Shri Mataji: Yes, but we can say spontaneous – Sahaja – is better because it has life in it; you see.

QL: Yes, but you know thought also has life. Without life we can’t think.

I: Thought also has life, without life we cannot think.

Shri Mataji: No, that’s wrong.

QL: Any thought…

Shri Mataji: No, you see inspiration is different. But thought is different and it has no life. It is beyond thought that you achieve this power. Actually…

I: It’s not meditation that we are talking about…

Shri Mataji: No, no, no…. you cannot do it. You have to become. It’s a state of mind where you are beyond your mind. It just starts flowing through you and it relates to you beyond your thought.

I: Perhaps you should we explain to people who have joined the programme?

Shri Mataji: Yes, it’s better; it is not easy to continue with this on the Radio. But I will; definitely it can be explained very easily and can be proved also.

I: Okay. Thanks for your call. Perhaps we could go over the process by which you say we awaken the Kundalini, the energy within us. This is a matter of stretching out one’s hands to someone who is authorized like Yourself, You say, someone who is holy…

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. Even if I blow on this thing it will work out. Even blowing will help; My talking will help. Yes, it will help many people. If they are sensitive enough, it will help them.

I: Mother, why don’t you do that?

Shri Mataji: All right. Now you stretch your hands, pleased, towards Me like you do it in the mass asking for your Self-realization. Close your eyes; don’t attach your attention anywhere, on any center. Just keep it loose, absolutely free. And I’ll now blow in the mike. It will have an effect on you and you will start feeling the cool breeze in the hand in a big way. Now try not to think, is better because this is beyond thinking. Thinking will stop it. So please try not to think and you need not even try, it will just become that you’ll become thoughtless. (Mother blows…….). Now feel your fingers. You’ll find a very slight movement of energy on your fingers. May be there may be tingling, may be some little burning, pins and needles, could be, because you are opening out and those who have got realization will feel a cool wind blowing. These are the different stages that can take place. Ultimately, you all should get cool breeze in the hand and also the cool breeze jutting out of your fontanel bone area on your head. You can put your right hand towards Me and the left hand on top of your head. You’ll feel that there’s a cool jet flowing upwards. Those who smoke may not feel so much because the Vishuddhi Chakra, meaning the center that looks after the cervical plexus, is little bit numbed. The nerve, the cervical nerve, which has to carry the message of the cool breeze, is numbed and they cannot feel it. But they definitely feel first the smoke coming out of their head and then the cool breeze coming out of their heads. You can even smell the smoke.

I: So it’s 28 to 12, my guest to night is “Mataji Nirmala Devi” and She’s here……(Announcement in detail)….(Music)……..

QM: Hello.

I: Yes, good evening.

QM: Good evening. Talked about Self-realization. I think, possibly, my opinion would be that before we sort anybody else’s problems out, the greatest thing we’ve got to sort out would be our mind.

I: Our own mind.

QM: Yes, because I think that we are the ones we live with, if you can understand what I am saying. Twenty-four hours a day, when we are sleeping or whatever, dreams or working or whatever, we are the ones that we have to always fight or put up with or enjoy or not enjoy, apart from our partners. wives, husbands.

I: We have to sort our own mental processes.

QM: I think this is the greatest problem and people will not accept the fact that the greatest sin in the world would be accepting defeat.

Shri Mataji: … (Mother laughs)…

I: Okay. Mataji’s comment on it…

Shri Mataji: Now, the word mind is very confusing. We have to understand our mind is… can be divided broadly into two halves. One, the mind which is conditioned, which we call as Superego or Mana in Sanskrit language. And the another mind is the Ego which is called as Ahamkara, means the one by which we accumulate a kind of a idea that I do this and I do that and I like it. All those things come from that I, which is Mr. Ego. And the another is the Superego by which we are conditioned and we accept the conditioning and we become a person full of these ideas like “I don’t like that” and “I am afraid and I am frightened” and all sorts of things. So these are the two things that are really in our mind.

QM: But who…

Shri Mataji: Now, just a minute. Please listen…

QM: Sorry.

Shri Mataji: I’ll explain to you the whole thing. Now the, the Superego is the past that we have. So we get our thoughts from the past, or the Ego is the thoughts about the future. So we have two types of thoughts. One from your past and one from your future, because in the center, where it is present there are no thoughts. It’s a thoughtless area. It’s a very small area. For example: a thought wave starts within you. It rises and you see the rising of the thought, but not the falling of it. It falls and then another thought starts. It rises and falls again. Like that the thoughts start rising and falling and we jump on the cusps of these thoughts – sometimes in the future or sometimes in the past. We have no control over it. All right? Now, what happens with realization? That when you, your Kundalini rises, She goes in the center and She sucks in the Ego and the Superego and you become one with the present where you’ll see the reality as it is. I’ll give you a simple example that whatever we try to solve by our mind can be very defective because we never face the reality. What we think about is the future, which doesn’t exist and the past, which is finished.

QM: But this… doesn’t this go back to accepting things?

Shri Mataji: Pardon?

I: Doesn’t this go back to accepting things?

Shri Mataji: No not… you need not accept; it is a happening. Unless and until this happens to you, you need not even accept Me. But should not also deny. What I am saying you keep an open mind about it and it works out. So, when it works out, then you live in the present. You try to solve anything through your mind, you’ll find it will have a relative value Always. It may be successful, it may not be successful. It may be correct, it may be incorrect. It’s all relative. That’s why there is confusion. We have to find the absolute point. When your Kundalini rises, She takes you into the realm when you are in the present and you see all the dimensions. For example: what is present and future and past? Is nothing but the two shadows of the present. For example, somehow by any chance if you can hang over the curve of the Earth, then you can see the future and the past, at one point, all the time and wherever you are is the present all the time. Its something like that happens to you. It’s a new dimension of awareness where the mind takes a new dimension where you become the present. The problems get sorted out so easily when you are in the present. It is to be seen and felt and to be experienced. Then your mental activity becomes very little because it is such a waste of energy – just thinking, thinking, thinking, reaching nowhere.

QM: OK. Can I just get a few words here? You missed my entire point. If I am brought up in India, I would speak Indian. If I am brought up in Greece, I would speak Greek. If I am brought up to preach to a God who is made of wood…[INAUDIBLE]….., Now, what the hell chance have I got, judging by any laws or… I mean it’s relevant, no matter what anybody says, an actual fact if you want to admit, admit the whole thing. Nobody knows anything, and you can think that I am…

Shri Mataji: All right. This is again Mr. Ego speaking.

QM: I beg your pardon?

Shri Mataji: It is the Ego that is saying that nobody knows, because Ego covers up everything. It covers up all the knowledge. So you have to go beyond this realm to see. For example: you can say that there is nothing under your skin. But a doctor will say, “No, there is, there are cells and you can see them.” But you have to have a microscope. Now, you must have the microscope to see. But if you deny, “I don’t want to see the microscope”, you will never see.

QM: I agree with all…

Shri Mataji: All right. So you must get your realization. You must have your Spirit and then you can see if you cannot see or not. But just now to deny it is just to refuse to knoe. You will be adamant.

QM: Now, look, I agree with it. Even if You said… all I am saying is that I think the biggest hassle that everyone has apart from being a millionaire or a puppet or a Mongol or a Cripple is the fact that they have to live within themselves everyday of their life and irrelevant of what you might say, or I might or God…

Shri Mataji: Now I follow.

QM: … let me finish. Irrelevant of what anyone might say, we have to live with ourselves and until such time as we can solve that part out of it, we will not believe in anything that anybody says because we have to be happy within ourselves. And whether you call it God or whether you call it the Devil, or whether you call it Buddhism or Hinduism or whatever you want to call it, you will never ever achieve that.

Shri Mataji: May be now I understand what you want to say. All right, I’ll explain. This is very simple. You see, when you are living with your mind, naturally you have to depend on it. Isn’t it?

I: Can you hear? Can you hear?

QM: Yes, I can.

Shri Mataji: Yes. When you live with your mind, you have to depend on it. But with Kundalini awakening, you go beyond your mind and this power starts flowing through you. Then you have to judge it by asking questions. For example: you get this cool breeze flowing in your hands. You cannot explain through your mind. All right, then you just try to ask, ask questions. Supposing you are a computer and you are put to the mains. Now, is this the computer answering the question? Then you just ask the question, one simple question, “Is there God?” A simple question. Just now you ask the question in your heart, “Is there God?” and you’ll see that these cool breeze forces will increase tremendously. So what happens that through this you understand the powers of the beyond, the working of the beyond and the beyond of the mind things. Then you start using a new awareness. Not only of your limited mind, but that of the unlimited vibratory awareness that is within you. You become a different personality.

I: OK. I think we could answer that question. Thanks for your call. (Announcement in detail)… … Hello.

QM: I am most interested in the, sort of occurrence of, in… to me has been choice

I: So, you mean about reincarnation?

QM: Well, Yea, in a way. It seems central to this Self-realization, the state, that one did not have a choice. Now I was just wondering how we become more aware of these choices and what choices are Mother Mataji’s are. In fact, mine.

I: You… What choices have you made? Did You choose to return to earth or…

Shri Mataji: You see, about Me the less said the better. But of course, I did choose to come here and to give realization, no doubt. I am here for that. But one has to understand, this is so important that an egg has to become a bird. Isn’t it? In the same way, you are an egg and you have to be born again when you have become a bird. It’s a different awareness. That’s what has to happen. A mother bird has to lay the eggs and then create chicks out of that. Isn’t it?

QM: Why did you make your choice?

I: Why did you make your choice?

Shri Mataji: That’s My job. What can I do?

I: It had to be made?

Shri Mataji: Yes, it had to be. You see, it is My desire, or you can say that’s My nature.

QM: So we are… it was not a question of personal choice. It was…

Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon?

I: It was your personal choice?

Shri Mataji: Of course. (Mother Laughs)…

QM: I was just… Personally, the difficulty in my life would be just knowing, when the choice exist between 1, 2 or among many forms of action.

Shri Mataji: You see the choices are changed. Your priorities are changed because your awareness is different. You see the… when your awareness is different, you start behaving in a different way. Your whole priorities change, your standards change, your values change.

I: And you choose differently?

Shri Mataji: You choose differently, you’re… You see, because you choose through vibrations. You see you may choose to buy something because it has better vibrations than to buy something which has no vibration.

I: You’re saying everyone chooses?

Shri Mataji: It goes on, you see.

QM: But on… Now it boils down to how you become more aware.

Shri Mataji: Yes, of the living forces.

QM: Yea, how you become more aware., Then you do have a choice because to me our society seems to [INAUDIBLE] ….What you have got at the moment is freedom from choice. I mean, how do we…

Shri Mataji: First of all, you become aware of people who may appear to be very humble, but are sinister – you get very bad vibrations from them, from people who are giving you food not with love, but with jealousy and anger. You become quite aware of it. You just vomit out. And you get aware of your Spirit; you give up smoking, drinking, gambling so many things which are there just because you feel so bored of life. But you enjoy yourself so much.

I: I think the caller was saying that perhaps we don’t… we feel we don’t have any choices. Is that what you’re saying?

QM: No. I was just wondering how to become more aware. People seem to be… Mother Mataji said that people seem to be…

Shri Mataji: The accent is more on get… wherever you find the vibrations, because the vibrations give you the joy. So you take to things which are vibratory, which are holy things, automatically. You do not get bored anymore because you feel your Spirit. So you give up so many things. You just take them because you are bored.

I: Sorry, I couldn’t quite follow what the caller was saying.

QM: Well…

Shri Mataji: He’s saying that what are your choices then? Afterwards, what happens to you?

QM: Yea. With these sort of negative influences from the… sort of force that you were talking about earlier…

I: I see. Well the caller is saying that where we, we can make choices but there are forces, there are negative influences that are preventing us from making…

Shri Mataji: … You stand on truth; you are not bothered.

I: Are there negative forces that are preventing us from making our choices?

Shri Mataji: Of course, there are. They, they do all kinds of things; they even create accidents for you. They create so many problems for you. They are the ones who are troublemakers; they are naggers; they are like mosquitoes; they are like bugs and they are like serpents and scorpions. (Mother Laughs).

QM: Are they in fact creating their own hell?

Shri Mataji: What was that?

I: Are they creating their own hell?

Shri Mataji: Yes, they want to have that. What to do? They are used to it. They are used to filth. They’ll go to filth only. They want filth. They cannot even smell flowers. What to do with them?

QM: Is this then what you think is hell, is it?

I: Is that what hell is?

Shri Mataji: Yes. Hell is the place where you enjoy all the filth.

QM: “Well, thanks very much. I’ll try and come along to… Where is it?

I: Macabean hall

Shri Mataji: Thank you very much, thank you. May God bless you.

QM: Thank you, bye.

I: Maccabean Hall… (Announcement) Hello

QM: Yes, hello. Mother, I would like to ask you a question. If I come to the thing tomorrow night, would you be able to cure an addiction without any effects of withdrawals of this addiction?

I: Caller wants to know, “Are you able to heel and cure addiction? Addiction to whatever drug?” Is it a drug?

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes.

QM: Anything?

Shri Mataji: Yes it does. You see, all misidentifications fall off. Once you’re identified with your Spirit, they fall off. You have to use a little bit of will power sometimes. But for some people, they’ve told Me… A gentle man in Singapore, who got his realization – he’s about 78 years of age – and overnight he got rid of many of his addictions. He was surprised how it happened.

QM: Right. Then you wouldn’t get any painful, sort of, side effects?

Shri Mataji: No, not at all. On the contrary, it’s very blissful.

QM: All right. I got it…

I: Thank you very much… (Announcements) Hello, good evening.

QM: I just want to ask Mother about a quotation from the Bible.

I: Yes, what’s that?

QM: It says, “But the comfort of the Holy Spirit that the father will send in My name would teach you all things.” I would like to ask Her about that.

I: Could you just repeat the quotation again?

QM: But the comforter, the Holy Spirit, [sounds like “whom”] the father will send in My name, will teach you all things.

I: And that’s from where?

QM: John chapter 14, verse 26.

Shri Mataji: I think you should take your realization and then you will know the answer to it. Because, logically if it points out to one person, then you have to reach the conclusion, isn’t it? That’s a logical way of looking at things. But I am not going to say anything or claim anything. It is better you people find out yourself.

I: Does that answer your question?

QM: Is the, is the comforter on the Earth at the present time? Has the Comforter incarnated? Mataji should be able to tell us this because She said that through these vibrations on Her hands, She …

Shri Mataji: Yes, He is very much here and He’s talking to you now. Can you believe that?

QM: Well, I feel something cool on my hand. Is that some indication of the…

Shri Mataji: Yes, very much so. So that’s the proof of the thing. You’ve already started feeling it in your hands. (Mother Laughs)

QM: Can I…?

Shri Mataji: Ask the question, “Mother, are You the comforter?”

QM: Mother, are you the comforter?

Shri Mataji: Ask it thrice.

QM: Mother, are you the comforter?

Shri Mataji: Again.

QM: Mother, are you the comforter?

Shri Mataji: Now, what do you get?

QM: Oh, I feel this kind of cool tingling passing all through my body.

Shri Mataji: (Mother Laughs)… That’s the answer now.

I: Okay, thanks for your call.

Shri Mataji: Thank you.

I: Hello.

QL: Good Evening.

I: Yes, good evening.

QM: Now my question… Don’t you think we all have a choice like love or hate, fight or fear, good or evil, positive thinking or negative thinking, a backbone or a wishbone, and believe that we are… I believe that we are all made in God’s image and it is upto us, and nobody else, whether we answer these things correctly? Therefore, Self-realization that is love, good, positive thinking, backbone people with no fear, have acquired lives, they’re able to absorb or discriminate without outside intervention or help and we are able to give, not take and feel ourself. Over to you.

Shri Mataji: (Mother laughs) I wish you could do that; but without Self-realization you cannot do it.

QL: I am doing it.

Shri Mataji: You, you have to give. That doesn’t mean it’s a rational thing. Or giving is just flowing, it’s emitting; that should happen.

I: I think the caller is saying that we can all make a decision to be strong and to be positive.

Shri Mataji: That’s only mental activity. That’s only a make believe. Is not the actual, actual thing. You can believe that you are very strong and you may be dominating. You believe you should not dominate, you should be humble and you could be sly. Unless and until you get your realization, you will not know whether you have reached the absolute value of those things or not.

QL: [UNCLEAR]…

I: Oh dear… We always have one of those.

Shri Mataji: Always, they bring in someone. Now, what about these great philosophers? What have they done? Have they given you realization? Why should you talk about them? Like when Christ came, they talked about somebody who died long time back. Why talk about them? Now I am facing you. Why do you want to talk about people who are dead? We always want to build temples for the people who are dead. Now the present is, I’m with you. Why do you want to talk about these people and bring a controversy? Don’t you want to gain something yourself? All right?

I: Mother, thank you for joining us tonight. I found it fascinating, really. (Announcement)… Mataji will be speaking at the Maccabean Hall.

Shri Mataji: Also Melbourne, we are having a programme.

I: Yes, but…

Shri Mataji: That we can announce later.

I: I don’t know whether we’ve got any listeners from Melbourne. But, there would be a programme in Melbourne also. But in Sydney, this Wednesday and Friday night at 7.30 at the Maccabean hall, 146, Darling Hurst Road, Darling Hurst. Thank you.

Shri Mataji: Thank you very much.

I: Thank you for joining us.

[1] Since the talk is a conversation, the speakers are identified as QL – question from a Lady, I – Interviewer, QM – question from a Man