Subconscious, Supraconscious and Our Correct Ideals

Chelsham Road Ashram, London (England)

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“Subconscious, Supraconscious” Chelsham Road, Clapham, London (UK) 24 May 1981

…these people saw it and thought [they are] kind of mad people. All kinds of things that are possible. And the new theory is that mind can’t do anything. People say you better do something which is uncontrollable by your mind, you see.

But there’s a simple answer to that; I say let’s see, what’s the simple answer? Let’s see. Sahaja Yogis… from the brain trust? What is the simple answer? They say that, you see, mind is limited all right, so whatever the mind does is limited. So if there are any deliberations by which you come to the control of our mind, whatever we do, is the mind’s doing.

So if something is done like that, it is spontaneous according to them, “This is spontaneous!” So let somebody else do it. I mean it’s something [as if the] Divine is doing it to you.”

Let’s have all the intellectuals down there! What do you answer to that? Did you hear that Linda [Williams (Pearce)]?

The question is very simple. The question is this: that they were saying that the mind is limited. All right?

Hello. Is Maria here? I was thinking of her. Where is she? I don’t see her. Hello! I was thinking of you today, somehow, to meet. I’m very happy you could come.

Now the question is this, a simple question, that they are saying that – through our mind whatever we do, and through the control of our mind whatever we do, is done by a limited energy of mind.

All right? Now this limited energy of mind, is doing something which cannot take you to unlimited. So something has to happen to us which is beyond the control of the mind. That’s the only thing that is spontaneous. Now see the confusion!

Now on mental level you can answer that.

Let’s see. Come along! Don. Who is there?


Yogi: You could say it has to be something spontaneous that happens to you, which increases your awareness. Whereas these people were degrading themselves.

Shri Mataji: No. You see, but you see the proof of the awareness is not there, all right? So they’ll say, “How do you say you have a greater awareness?” because that is subjective.

So they may come out you see. They are very clever.

So now. Another answer here?

Yogini: It’s another perception.

Shri Mataji: The same thing! You are saying the same thing. You say you have a different perception but how are they to believe?

So you see on mental level, on discussion only, what can you say about Sahaj Yoga?

Lets see. It’s a very good question. Put your mind to it. Very simple the answer is..

Yogi: Vibratory awareness.

Shri Mataji: No, no, but that’s it: you say you have vibratory awareness, but who believes you? Is the point.

You may say anything but who will believe? “Come along, the computer!”

It is very simple. You see, just go in a very simple way, then you will see the point. You may.

Yogi: There’s, there’s no effort involved?

Another yogi: The results.

Shri Mataji: Results? That’s too far fetched!

Just on discussion point, what should we say?

See that’s too far fetched [for them], “You see the results. I can feel your Kundalini. I can see this, that,” That’s abstract.

Man2: Could you say that we should be able to think when you want to?

Shri Mataji: Eh?

Man2: Could you say that you should be able to still use the mind if you want to?

Shri Mataji: But they can say, “We are using the mind!”

Those want to cheat you will say that. They can cheat you.

If they want to cheat you, they’ll say, “Yes, we are using the mind! We are in perfect bliss and happiness. We have vibrations.” You know, if you say, “Your Mooladhara is catching,” they’ll say, “Your this chakra is catching.”

How can you quarrel with these people? –  On mental level, not on any substantial, what do you call the… proof’s to be given.

Yogi: Mother, do they say the mind can see itself act, can be its own witness?

Shri Mataji: No, no, they say that mind is limited.

Yogi: Ah, it’s not its own witness.

Shri Mataji: So you have to give up your mind. Somebody else should work it out: the Divine.

And when they jump or they  do anything [they say that it] is the Divine that is making them jump, or shout.

So simple.

Chaya: Mother, if Divine is working out through them, then Divine should be able to solve their problems and give them –

Shri Mataji: That’s too far fetched, Chaya. That’s too far fetched. They will not believe that your problems are solved.

Only just on discussion point – what is the basic difference between Divine and human?

Yogini: How can we discuss about it, if it is really the mind which is limited, so how can they discuss it with them –

Shri Mataji: You can, you can. You can tell them something, even on the limited level.

You can have the Divine in limited stuff.

You can, you can do it. Now should I tell you? Or you have given up?

Let’s have the last word.

Linda: This has happened before, actually.

Shri Mataji: Ah?

Linda: Something happened today on the telephone which is… it’s been my experience it happened before. If you are talking to somebody on the telephone and you’re sort of discussing if Sahaja Yoga’s a good idea. This made me very… catching very, very badly on the whole of the left, in fact my hand was shaking. And just for my own comfort I started putting a bandhan on it because I thought my hand would go on shaking. And she said, “What are you doing to me?” I know if I made it clear. You can hear, hear the lady, “What are you doing?”

I was putting a bandhan on because my hand was shaking.


Shri Mataji: But Linda, for this also they have to believe in you. Might be your hand is shaking because you are getting some bhoot, your own bhoot working it out.

You see, you have to understand that at what level they are talking. You see, they are doubting you as you are doubting them.

The very simple answer is, that what you can do with your mind, you can always do, all right?

When you get to that position also you shout, howl – the same way you can do it.

But you cannot make the Kundalini pulsate.

Whatever you can do with your mind, and without your mind, is just the same, because you can howl, you can shout, you can jump, you can do everything that you are doing under the same circumstances. So the one who is doing is not Divine, but some human being or some human agency.

But the Divine if it has to do, it has to do something extraordinary which human beings cannot do.

To pulsate the Kundalini is only possible for the Divine. It’s a living force. Man-made things are dead and they can do dead actions. But a living force cannot be activated.

Kundalini cannot be seen pulsating by jumping. That cannot be done by mind.

You see?

Whatever you can do with your human mind that can be done always. What is there to need to go to these gurus? You can always howl and shout and do all these things but you cannot make the Kundalini pulsate.

Divine does something which you cannot do. You cannot make cool breeze flow from your hands.

So if you go beyond mind it has to be something extraordinary. It should be something different. Limited and unlimited are two different dimensions.

This is the secret of your Mother’s maya, also. This is the secret of your Mother’s maya, that I live on limited plane and do unlimited things. That’s how I create maya.

You see, you can only know me through knowing your vibratory awareness, by shaking on my head. Nobody can, shake, make you shake if you put the hand on the head, head of someone.

So the Divine force is a thing which human beings cannot do through their mind. You cannot make pulsate the Kundalini. It’s a living force. Human beings cannot create life, cannot generate life. They cannot generate life. They cannot make the Kundalini pulsate. They cannot make the pulsation come down here. They cannot raise the pulsation going up. With the stethoscope you can feel it. They cannot make the pupils dilate. Do you see my point?

Because they cannot feel the vibrations so we cannot talk of a vibrated thing, but you can see with naked eyes. They cannot make the cool breeze come out of your head. They can feel the thing coming out of our heads. This is extraordinary. Do you see my point, now? Clear cut?

So the limited, whatever I can do with the limited instrument myself, I can also do unlimited. That’s the sign of Divine Mother. It’s a tremendous thing to understand.

In the same way you are limited now but you have jumped into the unlimited so the things you can do, that’s why you are saints, you are saints. The things you can do on the unlimited, you could not have done it before Realisation. You start doing something that you could not have done before – is to raise the Kundalini of the people.

They can howl, shout, do all these things, but they cannot raise the Kundalini of the people. [With] all other things you can say, “It’s arbitrary, subjective!” “You are saying this happens – you got cured, it’s your mental attitude and all that,” But on this point [you cannot].

Dawn I wrote a letter for you. I have not brought it. You’ll have to come to my house.

(Mother spends some time with a baby on her lap, giving kisses )

Could we have some questions before we start.

Suddenly silence!

Antoinette Wells: I have a question that Matias wanted to ask you about the curing powers coming from the supraconscious.

Shri Mataji: What’s this?

Antoinette Wells: The curing powers coming from the supraconscious. Because there are many people who are curing other people with supraconscious forces and what is the difference between this curing power and the curing power of the Kundalini?

Shri Mataji: You see there could be two types of curing people. One could be those who get the power of the collective subconscious and those who get from the collective Supraconscious.

Both can cure, partly, depending on where is the problem. For example a person has, say, a left side problem, then a collective subconscious fellow can cure – the left side.

And if there is a supraconscious person he can cure more physical side – you see? – because he’s on the supraconscious side.

Now what would they do? You see now for example, take the question of collective subconscious people; those who indulge into going into say…we have two types of people in India called as mantrikas and tantrikas, you see. So the mantrikas are the people who go to the funeral pyres and also go to the cemeteries and there try to capture these spirits, you see. These are dead spirits and the sly type of dead spirits, they catch them.

Now these sly spirits are interested in doing some sort of a…you see they are the so-called ‘social workers’ sometimes – busybodies trying to help others. Some people might have collected say hundred pounds only and wanted to collect two hundred more, you see, something like that type. In the category of this chaturvarna  (caste system) they are the shudras (lowest caste), as they call it, the people who believe in serving others and sort of doing something in the service of others – such people. They appear to be good people because they want to serve others and they want to help others and that’s why they don’t want to die their real death; they want to stick on around and they are a busybody to serve each other. So there might be, say, a servant class, we can call it; these are servant class people. All the time they are the first to serve. Of course none of us are like that, so no question, nothing to bother! But they are a different type. They are the people who are servile, absolutely servile. They like to be whipped, they like to be beaten up, they like to be ill-treated – that type of people. Absolutely another extreme, horrid type of existence they like to have. You know that kind in the psychology it is described. All such people are around.

So they get hold of these people, they are very timid, afraid all the time, nudging, you see – Left-sided people. So they get hold such people and tell them, “Do this work!” and, “Do that work!” “You have control this!” “You have to go there!” and these people feel very happy about it. So if there is somebody suffering from a mental trouble – due to somebody has been through a death, somebody’s death or something, and he get’s  a mental pushback into the collective subconscious. So these people can be ‘cured’ if you go to one of these mantrikas that they go and they just tell that, “All right, now you have been there for such a long time troubling this man, you get out from there. You get out from there!” And when they say so, “You get out from there!” they say that, “We’ll put somebody else in your place and we’ll give you another place to go.” You see?

Sort of a rapport is established; they are mediators, liaison officers, you can say. And they create this kind of an office by which they catch hold of these people and put them into somebody else.

A very good example of this is a lady whose husband used to drink a lot, so she went to one of the ladies of this kind. So she said, “All right, I’ll manage this man and he won’t drink. So you have to give me a hundred rupees for that.” She paid a hundred rupees. So she put one bhoot in this man, removed this man who was drinking – you see there must be a drunkard in him.

So this fellow started, you see he gave up drinking but he started going to races. So she removed that bhoot and she put another one who started going to dirty women! And then this lady got frightened, she said, “What are you doing? Every time I’m paying you hundred rupees, and hundred rupees,” you see?

She had paid her a lot of money and suddenly she found that this fellow is doing all the three things together. So she went to fight with this woman! She said, “How dare you do these things to my husband!” And this lady put a bhoot in her. Since then that woman is still mad and I have not been able to cure her. So you can imagine how dangerous it is to go to these people for getting something! Still when she sees me she goes on like this and [she’s] quite funny.

You remember one lady who came to [me]? The same one! This is the case. She’s a very good looking woman, married to a very rich man who owns a factory and this is the life both of them are leading, burning the candle on both the ends! So this is one thing. This is the one of the cases.

The second case is of the supraconscious fellow. Now you go to a supraconscious fellow, like this doctor – who was that late doctor?

Yogi: Laing?

Shri Mataji: Lamb!

Yogi: Laing!

Shri Mataji: … “Late Dr. Lamb’s Curative Centre,” you see. “International Curative [Centre]”. International bhoots he had! (laughter) Yes really! Curative Centre! And you had to write to them, that, “I am suffering from this disease.” Whatever disease you have. One lady was suffering from an uterus trouble.

So all the great doctors you see, all the great lawyers, all the great scientists and all the great engineers and architects and all these great supraconscious people, very ambitious, Hitler and all such great warriors; all such people gather on the right hand side. So, he being a doctor, he met all his friends there. He met his friends and then by that, what happened that he could talk to them, “Now let’s start a clinic,” because these doctors would not die. They had been experimenting with this and experimenting with that. So they started this ‘Late Dr. Lamb’s clinic’ and for that, I don’t know if you know the whole story but if you read Gregoire’s book it might be there I think, that this Dr. Lamb lived in London who died and who had a son. Now this Dr. Lamb when he died his bhoot attacked a man in Vietnam where he was fighting and an ordinary soldier who had never known what is education is, you see, and he told him that “I am Dr. Lamb, I’m from such and such place. You’d better go to my son and tell him that you want to start this thing.” He did not attack his son because he knew his son wouldn’t be able to bear him, because he wanted a very healthy, sturdy man, you see?

And this gentleman then went to this son and told him that, “Your father is within me and he’s talking like this.” He said, “I can’t believe it.” He said, “All right.” Then he went into trance, he started talking. He said, “See, we have got this things in the secret pocket, you go and see there’s money kept for you.” and, “We talked like this secretly and this was this…” And then the son had to believe, you see. Then he believed him. And he started this clinic for him. So he gave all the money and everything for the clinic and all the bhoot doctors – international – were helping this particular doctor to act anywhere they wanted. So the intercommunication was established on that level, on the collective supraconscious.

Now a lady was suffering from high blood pressure and kidney and also some uterus trouble. So she went to them and she said that, “All right, I am suffering from such and such disease.” So they said “All right, you write a letter to our centre in London.” She wrote a letter here. So they sent back a letter that “On such and such date exactly…” You see living forces do not act like that, they don’t give you a date or thing. “On such and such date at this time we’ll appear within you and cure you. At that time, you lie down in your bed.” And suddenly she got this “O-ho-ho-ho-ho!” into her you see. So one of the doctors must have entered into her. And she got cured of it, absolutely cured. For a year or so she was all right. Then she started feeling very dizzy. She just started feeling very dizzy and all sorts of coming up. When she came to me she was in a tattered condition, absolutely finished; she was like this, you know.

So, she knew that a spirit had come in her. But now she said, “There are at least ten or eleven of them within me, and I can’t bear them.” This kind of curing also can take place from the supraconscious people. Supposing there’s an architect, if he goes to one of such people he can get an architect who is dead upon himself and he can start doing this work.

Now this man who was a ripper and all that was himself, was possessed by some ripper who died or something like that, whose ambitions he is sharing. You see you have to have inclination for that, no doubt. You have to have that weakness within you otherwise it won’t work out. But if you have that weakness and if you are very weak, otherwise also from mind, then these things catch hold of you.

And if it has something to do with physical side the supraconscious can help you. If it has to do something on the mental side then the subconscious people can enter you. But they help you very temporarily and then they come back with a big force on you – it is like that.

But Sahaj Yoga makes you so powerful and so pure that impurities just go out. It’s a cleansing force. It’s a very different thing where you neither put any bhoot into somebody, or your intention is not to cure but as a by-product people get cured.

Now tremendous things are happening: like I met a lady and her husband in Australia – a very dynamic journalist – and the lady was the president of the Journalist Association. Do you know her?

Yogini:Not yet.

Shri Mataji: All right.

Journalist Association of Australia. She could not have had a baby. Doctors had said she can never have a baby! She’ s very short, extremely fat; all that problem was there. Still they were carrying on. I mean, husband wanted the baby very much. And now she conceived, after Sahaj Yoga. After so many years – fourteen, fifteen years of marriage now she’s conceived. So the her entire ideas about life are changed. She used to indulge into so many things that she used to do: she went to gurus, this, that, she did everything then she was a Catholic to begin with then she became something else, everything she has done. She overcame all that when she came to Sahaj Yoga and here she finds this answer, physically. So, I’ve not put any bhoot in her. I have made all the bhoots get out of her, you see. And she said that, “Now we are going to take up a project,” which I had told them, that “You have to expose these gurus.” Just even if you write what these people are doing, you will be able to show that this is madness, this is real madness! And once you have talked about it then you prepare a base for Sahaj Yoga and then you should say, “This is the reality that makes you sane, powerful and loving.” Then only people are going to see to this.

So this is a very good thing that Sahaj Yoga creates miracles, really creates miracles. You have seen on material level, on mental level, on emotional level and ultimately on the spiritual level. You are all endowed with such powers. Even if you are doing anything wrong or anything, you are a realised-soul; if you want to give Realisation you can do it. For example, if this lamp is enlightened, it may not be good, it might be unclean, it may not be very good to burn, but once it is burning it can enlighten other lights. Like that, your Spirit is pure.

But one has to know that we have to fight all these evil spirits. On the unlimited I am working hard, very hard; that’s how they’re exposed. But on the limited you must work hard to fight them, and should be prepared to fight them. You should prepare yourself to fight them; you have to fight these evil forces. Because they are the ones who are ruining your own beings around so you have to fight. There is big depression coming on you; people will just obstruct it, they’ll trouble you like anything. But you have to fight these and for that you should be strong. They are so strange. And the great people, the children of God, the men of God are born more in the West than in the East, most surprising. I think they were rewarded by God to come to a country which has more affluence, did not have so much poverty and the troubles. And these are the people who are lost, and the reason, one of them, which I discovered only yesterday, is that the modern concept of life is to make something that can be demolished easily. And this is what one should know that our foundations have been made very weak by satanic forces. Our foundations are very weak.

We have been given all these ideas for days in and day out, the satanic forces have built it up since long; since long these ideas have been built up. On all the Western front if you see the kings how they were, the queens how they were, the way the people lived and the kind of life they led, and if you read the French this thing…I mean, sometimes you read other Kings of Spain and Portugal, you’re amazed, and the kind of life they led was so horrifyingly funny, even you can see the Catholic churches, the so called very religious people, the way the pope lived, and all that is so horrifying sometimes! He even doesn’t know what is right and what is wrong!

So your foundations were laid like that, wrongly, they are shaken up.

You have to rebuild your foundations. So the foundations on which you stand, you [must] change them completely. You have new foundations of dharmic life. Absolutely you have to accept dharmic life in your life, that’s the way only your foundations can be good. In India the foundations are good – specially in Maharashtra, very good foundations they are – but the yearning, the aspiring, is not there. Like an aeroplane, one aeroplane which is got nicely built but it is so nicely built that it can never fly. The another one is so built that it wants to fly – as soon as takes off, everything goes and finished! (laughter)

So, one must realise that our foundations were laid down like that by the satanic force. It’s much deeper than what you understand. You have to fight those foundations they’ll say, “Oh, what? He was like this, he was like that. Oh what?” They are not your ideals, one should know. They are not your ideals – these horrible kings who killed seven wives and things and things like that. They are not your ideals. Your ideals are your Self. You have to build new ideals in the Western countries. Then only you can change it. Because you are such a dynamic force.

Every one of you have to come up to build yourself into ideals and try to lead a life of that ideal within you. You have to sacrifice, the greatest thing that you have to sacrifice is your ego which makes you so obstinate and hard-hearted. Face yourself up! This ideal has to be created. There is someone sitting before you if you want to accept which is a very difficult life this side; that, one has to have compassion, one has to have love, understanding. Never talk ill about each other, never. Try to help each other. We are very few. We cannot afford to fight among ourselves. We are very few people and wedded to a very great cause. So we cannot afford to fight. We cannot have wrong ideas. We cannot waste our time on mundane things, even like marriage. If marriage has to be, it has to be compatible, good, try to build up your things now; must try to patch up things. You have to make it a beautiful thing. Do not indulge onto small, nonsensical things which are petty, useless otherwise we cannot do it. You see we have to still go a long way, a very long way we have to go. It’s a long, long way.

These satanic forces are very nicely built up in these areas. They didn’t bother about India because India is a poor country. Poverty teaches one thing is to have proper foundations. That’s the blessing of poverty: that once you give up even these foundations then nothing is with us, at least try to have some foundations. But the very poor are just the same as the very rich. But the very rich are not your ideals, not at all; [also] not the very poor. But you are your own ideals. You have to create new ideals. You are the new presidents of America and prime ministers of England. You are the one who are great people and you have to stand up to it: people of character, of integrity, of hard work, proper understanding, otherwise you cannot do anything. You have to come up! It’s easy to study something, pass M.A., or MHD or anything like that, but to become an ideal you have to mature. You have to tell yourself that, “I have to come up, I have to do this!” Which is not difficult now because you have the source under your command! Anything is possible. Just ask for it and you’ll have it. But build it up. Even now if you cannot build up your own personality and the new ideals when will you do? When I am here with all the chakras intact.

Easy to justify yourself. There’s no justification needed for anything. “This is wrong, that is wrong.” – all finished! You have to become that.

So one is, that you change your foundations. Despite all this, we have people like William Blake, Shakespeare, Tennyson – great people. Tremendous people, Mozart, this, that. Lots of people in this country also. Taking their names itself liberates vibrations. In those conditions, single-handed, they created their own ideals. Just think of them how they must have fought this horrible… it is only today that we accept him, who accepts these people? Jung? Who accepts him? Only twelve Jungians – horrible Jungians these are.

Every one of you is capable of doing that. Every one of you has to become a leader. In Poland an ordinary factory worker did that (Lech Wałęsa). He was an ordinary factory worker. But he was not a realised-soul. He could not communicate with God, he had no way of knowing the Absolute. So channelise yourself properly, cleanse yourself properly and dedicate.

For dedication you don’t have to do anything. I do not want anything from you for dedication, except give up your egos and superegos, that’s all. These loads you must take it out. Just create a little space there, which is the heart actually. A little space and it will work out.

And that is, one has to understand now, when you these films and things – thank God I did not see. You see it’s easy to kill these rakshasas, it’s easy do all this but what about these lost souls? Everything works out very well, say about a year or so, or two years. After that I am going to blast them. Before that you should be ready. Because once I blast them they’ll come back on you people. So you should be such strong people that you are not finished by that. You see blasting is so easy for them. For me it’s the easiest thing to blast all of them and finish them off but once they go to subconscious area they’ll attack you again so I want them to live, with paralysis, with diabetes, with all sort of things; but they’ll live, they’ll not die.

It’s a tremendous task and I’m working twenty-four hours [a day], twenty-four hours. I have no sleep, nothing, you know that. It’s all just a life that is so enjoying and itself. The whole vision I can see clearly of those beautiful days when we all will be enjoying each other and the bliss of God together – that’s all I want. We have to pull out so many human beings from the clutches of the evil forces, for which you have to dedicate.

Our attention is too much on useless things, materialistic things: there’s no end to it. Be satisfied with less. There is no end to it. You will be looked after also materially; there won’t be much problem. But don’t run after too many of these things. Just don’t have interest in these. What is it all? It’s all trash!

But you should be loving and affectionate. You see, once you start giving up these things, what you become [is] you become like a hard-hearted person: “I have no interest in anything!” – finished. Who has interest in such a stone?

(Shri Mataji talks to a child)

Good. You are feeling cool breeze in the hand? She’s just in meditation.

Yogi: She says her hands feel nice, Mother.

Shri Mataji: She’s in meditation actually.

Yogi: Sometimes at home. Mother, she sits in front of Your photograph and she won’t speak to anybody afterwards. She just, she’ll just wander around and she’ll play with her toys, but she doesn’t want to speak to people. She just goes very quiet.

Shri Mataji: Let them grow up. But you are the foundations. Now they will talk of you as the foundation, not of these horrible people who have been. They will talk of you, “Oh, such and such person was the Sahaj Yogi, the first Sahaj Yogis.” Where is that, the first one? He’s not there, missing all the time.

Yogi: He’s getting the door!

Shri Mataji: Will you come in? (laughter) Come here in front!

That is how they have to talk. You have to be ideals of love and affection and not of domination and nonsense – all of you. You will be the first Sahaj Yogis. You are the one who are going to change the complete concept of life. The new ideals have to be established.

I don’t know if you people really are aware of your responsibilities. Sometimes you are only worried on, “Oh! Where am I catching? What is happening to me? What is this?” So self-centred! Or you are worried about others: “She should not have not done this!” “He should not done, he should have not sat next to Mother! He should have done this.” Nobody should think that they love me more than anybody else. Nobody should think like that! Some people know more rituals, some know more in protocol, doesn’t matter; but I know who loves me. The one who loves others loves me the most. I don’t care [about] your protocols and your ritualistic things. It’s nonsense for me. What does it matter for me? The one who loves others is the one who really loves me. Take it from me. I have had all these rituals and all that and I have no care for these things. Makes no difference whether you say, “Good morning,” to me or, “Good evening to me,” it’s not important. What you say to your brothers and sisters is the most important point.

Sahaja Yoga will never work out if you do not look after that side: how you behave towards your wife, towards your husband, towards your brothers and sisters. That is the most important thing. Anybody who tries to play such tricks will get out of Sahaj Yoga. You know that I’ve thrown out very, so-called ‘important’ people out of Sahaj Yoga when they did like this, to dominate others, by saying, “This is not good! You should not put your hand there!” or “Put your feet there!” or “Do this and that.” Who can know the protocol of Divine Mother? You cannot bind me into protocols. You can not bind me to anything I am unlimited. I am detached. You cannot bind me to anything. To think that you can have me attracted towards you by your protocols, which is dead, has no meaning. It has to be a living protocol of being kind and generous, being beautiful.

Some are lethargic: Say a husband wants the wife to work all the time. The wife wants the husband to every time. Everybody finding faults with each other! They are not Sahaja Yogis. Sahaja Yogis are the people who take it sahaja.

If somebody is not working that person will go down – just like this. I’ll put that person out of Sahaja Yoga. But why? Why did you come to Sahaja Yoga? You are seekers. You have been seeking for ages now. You have been built up from ages now. Are you going to waste your life? In any case you have to sleep and rest for the rest of your life. So why not now work it out. In every way act!

Firstly you will become real, very good citizens, with moral values which are your foundations. You yourself judge you are realised-souls. I’ll leave it to your judge. I can not going to tell you why did you do it. No, it is you, you judge yourself. You will lose your vibration. And losing vibrations is the

You can become silent. Silence can be from other agencies. Negative forces from the left side of the Agnya are giving ideas. You must have your own ideas. “I can’t, I go on thinking,” this nonsense goes on. Just tell yourself how dare you do all this nonsense of the Left Side. Those who are left sided better go in for lemon treatment, beating [with] shoes, everything. Get out of it! Those who are Right Sided better go on with a nice hundred and eight beating to oneself. Get in the centre! Cleanse yourself! If you really love yourself you cleanse yourself. Be in the centre. Never be proud of your ego, never be proud – “Oh, I think it’s correct. Yes I feel..” Beat yourself hundred and eight times. You see, you can be very high handed under the circumstances. You can do absolutely without any embarrassment of what you are doing, you can be absolutely shameless, you can be. I mean, you are a Sahaj Yogi! How can that be? You should feel embarrassed about things. There should be a little sankoch. You call it ‘formality’ but I would not it ‘formal’. ‘Sankoch’ is the thing:  “How to do this?” “Why to hurt anyone?” There should be such reservations about you. How can you say such a thing to someone? It will hurt.

One if the victims of this is David Baxter. He was hurt so much that his Agnya bloated more and more. Because if your Agnya is hurt, your Agnya just bloats out; you don’t know what to do with it. So many are like that I know. Somebody tries to show off they are big gurus and try to push down others: “Oh, I know, I know. I know Sahaj Yoga, I’m a great Sahaj Yoga this thing!” And then I will make a [horn] come out like that! A horn. But that comes out from here. You see in the mirror, you can see your ego jutting out from here. Just feel it. All of you. It’s there. Push it down. This nonsense, this is the sticking point, you know! Though the balloon goes thin, it’s sticking on here; there’s a sticker. Push it down. Here it bloats outs.

This is how Buddha is…Buddha. Buddha is the one who is realised: ‘buddha,’ the one who is [an] enlightened one. You are the enlightened one, how can you have an ego? You are the buddha: the one who knows. You are buddha, you are enlightened people. Put your hand over here.

Ego is the greatest enemy. I have seen people who suffer from superego: if you take it out they’ll go to the ego. It’s the greatest enemy you have, this superego, when there is no ego. But if there is ego then whatever you may try with superego it will come back to ego.

So for us, in the West, we have the greatest problem – is of ego. Whatever appeals to ego we run to that. That’s how these people are made mad. They said, “Oh,  you can fly.” (in TM) – gone into that. Somebody will say that you’ll become very powerful — gone into it. Somebody said that you will become a great guru — finished!

When you become the Spirit you become one with the Whole — nobody says that. That’s Jewish! (laughing). I am not saying yet too! But Australia definitely is doing much better. They have a little love. That day I don’t know why; just can’t say

Now, it’s coming again. Better?

When I say, “You are realised,” “You are great,” “You are saints,” [there’s] one more blow into the balloon! If I say, “You have  to create your ideals,” one more blow: is the balloon going on blowing up. When I say that, I say it to create that awareness within you that you are here for the torches. You are the torches. But the torches are to be ego-less! Because your ideals have been all full of ego. See anybody; say Churchill standing there with a stick in his hand — same thing. It’s nothing but complete body looks like an ego, like that. Anyone! These ideals have to go away. We have to form new ideals. He was all right for war. We needed him for war, to meet another ego called Hitler. So it was all right to break their heads together. But now we need new ideals. That time is over now.

When there is flood you need boats to carry you across, but after reaching the shores you don’t carry the boats with you do you? You leave them behind. But we don’t. These boats are no good for us now we’ve done the job. Now we have to go ahead with our own feet. All right? So no bloating of the ego should be there.

And with that one would realise that we should not think that in any way we are exceptional. No one should think that you are exceptional! If you start thinking that only you are blowing up your ego. To Mother you are not. You have to be ideal. You have to be in the centre. You have to be a Sahaj Yogi. That’s the most important thing is. Do not judge yourself by what you think of yourself, but what your Mother thinks of you. How much joy you are giving to your Mother? If you make her unhappy then what’s the use.

Now don’t go into [Left Vishuddhi].  (laughter) What a game eh? Immediately! There’s a pocket here. The whole balloon goes down there, settles down. Again as soon as I say something, “Oh!”

Now you must have noticed that there are very few really seekers in this world, who are true seekers. And those who are seekers must realise also that seekers cannot be happy with anything else but their Spirit. This is the test of a seeker. And a non-seeker can never understand a seeker. And it is very difficult to live with a man or a woman who is not a seeker. Because you catch all the bad points and you suffer. [If] the person has an ego, you feel the thing here, [but] the person doesn’t feel anything. He’s hurting? He’s very nicely off! He has his ego intact and he’s torturing you as well!

But a person who is a seeker is a better person because you can give Realisation to that person and then your vibratory awareness can be shared, and nobody would mind anymore. But somebody who is not at all a seeker could be a very difficult situation. You cannot make a fruit into a flower. And the flower becomes a fruit.

Now you are changed, so you have become the fruit. But you must have a flower around, if you have a flower you can make it into a fruit. But if it’s a leaf? No idea! Like “My mother, my brother, my father, my husband, my wife,” and this and that. Those who are already entangled with such problems should learn to not to get more problems. Those who are not flowers should be avoided, forgotten and locked. Don’t do anything about them. You just don’t worry. The more you try to improve them the worse you’ll become. They can never improve. I give you a big rope to see. If they are not seekers they will never be a seeker. You cannot inject seeking into them. They may come [for] some material well-being, this, that, but they can never become seekers and you forget it! You may have to suffer because of them. Because if they are catching, you have to suffer. If they have a Nabhi Chakra, you have to suffer: no doubt. But you have committed a mistake and forget it. It can never improve. The person is very difficult to become a seeker. Do not waste your energy. Christ has said, “Don’t throw your pearls [before the swine].” ”

You cannot force anybody to be a seeker; you cannot force. But there are millions and millions of seekers in this world. So forget about all such relationships and say that, “You are finished.” They may call you mad, they make all you crazy, they make all you anything, [but] they will realise only one thing that you lead a much better life than they do; you are much more peaceful, blissful and dharmic and sane, but they won’t accept your life. Forget it! Just play around with them understanding that they cannot change. Even if they change mentally they cannot have that urge to be seeking because for a seeker, nothing matters, nothing is important. Nothing gives them joy: even a little child like that. She’s gone off! They are so relaxed.

So, any more questions? Mio? Cooly and Mio should come and see me tomorrow…

Cooly: Yes Mother.

Shri Mataji: ..before going to the program. Coming to the program. You come here, come there. I want to talk to you.

Antoinette Wells: I have another question: What about the people who are good people, dharmic people, not seekers, who have got realisation but don’t see now the big…

Shri Mataji: …vision.

Lady: The vision what’s going on at the –

Shri Mataji: They’ll go out of circulation. They have to come in Sahaj Yoga. They go out of circulation, absolutely. You see, the thing is, Sahaj Yoga doesn’t accept. It rejects more than accepts. It’s a judgement going on. Such people who go out of Realisation, they have to work it out. You may talk to them because they’re realised, you can give them bandhan, you can work on them. They are the people in whom you could be interested, but they are lost otherwise.

I had given a very good example of this [which] was that they make butter out of the…what you call that? We call it ‘curd’. It’s yoghurt. They churn it. When they churn it what happens [is] some butter comes up, the rest remains as buttermilk. How do they do it? To separate it from that, they put a big lump of butter in that. Then they churn it. Now the whole butter gets round that big lump and it gathers into a big lump. But there are some particles which are left behind; they are butter, they are not buttermilk. If they do not stick to this big thing, they are thrown away with the buttermilk. So those who do not come up to Sahaj Yoga, who are not up to the mark, will be all thrown out, no doubt, that’s a fact. You have to come up to the mark. And you should not worry about those. You should have nirapekshita. You should have no attachment for such people.

No channa for me? Can you give me some water?

That’s good to eat away some bhoots, you see.

Yogini: Mother, Marcus has made a very beautiful Indian sweets, but that didn’t work out.

Shri Mataji: I don’t eat any sweets these days, you see. I’m going into a kind of a penance, for some time.

No sweets for me. You can all have it. I’d like you to do that. A little penance is needed sometimes for me also.

Yogini: Would you like a cup of tea, Mother?

Shri Mataji: Yes, without milk. With lemon. Have you got?

Yogi: Mother, I’ve got some channa upstairs. Shall I go and bring it for you?

Shri Mataji:  All right, bring it, bring it. Channa I don’t want.

[UNCLEAR: Little Kim?] what was happening? Where she is?

Yogi: She just felt… she was uncomfortable, she’s…

Shri Mataji: So just put her on something comfortable.

Yogi: No, she’s okay, she just feels a little bit restless; when you’re three it’s a strain to be quiet Mother.

Shri Mataji: Now who are the Exeter people who have come?

Yogi: Peter and Jane, Mother.

Shri Mataji: Who? Raise your hand.

Yogi: Peter and Jane.

Shri Mataji: Oh I see. Good. Nice to see you here.

Yogi: Mother Peter had some trouble with his back since he got Realisation.

Shri Mataji: Who had? Come along here. Will he be able to sit on this one? Can you?

Yogi: Shri Mataji, why do we feel cool breeze like the vibrations?

Shri Mataji: Because the All-pervading Power is felt like that when your Spirit is enlightened. It is existing everywhere but you never feel it before you start feeling it when your Spirit is awakened.

Feel hot breeze?

Yogi: He says when You talk about warmth, you talk about love.

Shri Mataji: Warmth?

Yogi: The warm feeling is a feeling of love.

Shri Mataji: You see, we never say that it is nice to be boiling but we always say it’s nice to be cooling. All cancer patients give heat. Whenever anyone is diseased it gives heat. You see, another extreme could be this, you can say that, freezing; maybe.

But we say, “Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow.” You never say that, “You, you burn me and I shall be brighter than charcoal.” (laughter)

But you’ll be surprised. It is very, very temperate. I mean it’s not a thing that is freezingly (sic) cold. If it is freezingly cold that means Left Side – if you get very cold. I mean it can never be. Cool Breeze, actually, is never very cold, it’s not freezing. It could be hot with some people, could be very cool because of their problems. But if you are a normal person you feel a cooler sensation.

Even here, how much ice people consume? Just think of that.

“On the rocks!” (laughter) They are always ‘on the rocks’. The amount of ice cream they consume, the amount of ices they consume in this cold country is most surprising. Even your Prime Minister gave us to eat, rhubarb ice! (laughter) On an icy cold day.

I mean you use much more cooling than we use. And even you suggest, like say somebody is very much in a heat and is getting angry, they say, “Cool down, cool down.” But if somebody is supposing is lethargic you don’t say, “Boil up!” You say, “Awake and be active,” but you never say, “Boil up!”

It is slightly less than your body temperature. It’s not so very cooling as to freeze you. If it is hot, then something wrong with you. I mean the question ‘why?’ is such, that even if there was hot they would have said, “Why hot?” But [if] it is cool, it’s cool. There’s no ‘why?’ about God.

Good. Coming up. Very bad Swadhishthana! The left one, it goes to the left.

That’s the worst part. Because they don’t believe in giving us any peaceful time. If there is an earthquake, they’ll write it, first page. If there is somebody a ripper, you’ll find five columns of articles written on this horrible ripper. Is he your ideal? And about Sahaj Yoga they are not willing to write even one sentence! Now he is the ideal of the people! So shameful, I tell you, the whole thing is. Feel like vomiting. What depravity. (Mother is talking about a serial killer known as ‘The Yorkshire Ripper’)

Another one I have got to show you, which some of you should try to answer.

Where is that? Did you bring one? John?

John Watkinson: Newspaper?

Shri Mataji: John? I mean I can’t even discuss this. The brain trust should see it. I mean, how, where the mind of the people is going? Where they are attracted to?

What did you bring? Oh God!

John: Telegraph.

Shri Mataji: I wanted the magazine.

John: Oh, thought you just said The Daily Telegraph?

Shri Mataji: News, Telegraph, the magazine is there. Sunday. Sunday Telegraph. All right. Gavin, you can get it. Some of you should get it. There’s something one should see – horrible. And they have tried to describe the prostitutes of Bombay.

Are you finished with yours?

In a very horrid way! Absolutely nude they have shown these women. In India pornography is not allowed. So this is a way of having a pornography. It’s very, very subtle.

And that is a place where people just don’t go to! I mean that road nobody would go through. It’s regarded as an inauspicious place. If somebody has to go from there, they’ll come [home] and have a bath. Only the sailors go there mostly.

But where is your attention is the point, you know. Very horrible pictures.

You go to Nepal. I mean we never saw anything there! Till Gregoire told me that this is all here. I said, “Really, where is it?” He said, “On top.” I said, “Where?” He said, “Where this Japanese has gone up with three ladders, you see, hanging in the air projecting zoom lenses.” This is just to support their weaknesses, perhaps.

Come in, come in. Come forward. You can move some of you this side, I think, there’s lot of room. On this side? I think you all can come, Graham and all that, you can come this side. And I think you can come.

Phil? I mean, have I any place where I can talk to people, little bit in privacy.

Yogini: Yes Mother we can tidy the girls’ room for you.

Shri Mataji: All right. So I’ll go upstairs?

Yogini: Is that all right for you?

Another Yogini: You can go up now.

Yogini: What if we were to go upstairs, would that not be easier?

Shri Mataji: Eh?

Yogini: Wouldn’t it be easier if we went upstairs?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no. Quite all right. You know now I have bought a house which is five stories!

Yogini: That was the problem, Mother. That was what we were all worried about.

Shri Mataji: No, it’s all right.

Yogini: Why don’t we go upstairs?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, I’m all right.

Yogi: Linda it’s very tidy your room.

Shri Mataji: Where has Cooly gone? Just call him here.

Peter Pearce: He’s just busy at the moment.

Shri Mataji: Eh?

Peter Pearce: There’s someone at the door for him.

Shri Mataji: Let him come. Somebody else could be busy!

People think we can be on our own, you see. They start thinking like that, [that] we can start working it out on our own. That’s why if you write about chakras, be very careful. Nothing can be worked on you own. They think, “Oh, our relationship is with Mother, directly.”

Yogi: No, this is for Sahaj Yogis; this is not the normal people.

Shri Mataji: It is for Sahaj Yogis?

Yogi: Yes, it’s the information to further your knowledge of Sahaj Yoga. To know a little bit more about in Sahaj.

Shri Mataji: Oh no, then I would suggest that if it is the information for Sahaj Yogis – first thing one should say is that, what information they need is, that they cannot work it on their own. Mother only loves those who love each other. Anybody who thinks, “I can work it on my own, I have a special relationship with Mother,” should know that they are going out.

This sentence you put first. Then I don’t mind writing an introduction.

Yogi: An introduction?

Shri Mataji: Introduction.

Yogi: Ah, yes that’s –

Shri Mataji: Because they will know all about chakras, and still not be in there.

Yogi: Yes of course, of course.

Shri Mataji: Better now?

Yogi: Very much.

(break in recording)

Shri Mataji: It is said that, “Eka hi akshara prema ka,

Wada is ho pandita hua.” Ak-shara. ‘Akshara’ means, actually ‘word’ in the normal way. But what is akshara? I mean the one that is never destroyed, which never diminishes. So ‘ek’ – only one – word of love, the one who can read that word – becomes the pandita, the one who becomes the vidvana. All the rest of knowledge is useless. If you can only love people who are related to you be material life and not the others then that’s wrong. Sahaj Yogis are your real relations.

You are better now. Why to produce children? That’s why I said that, “Don’t look after other’s children,” because all your desire to be parents will be finished with that and you’ll have an excuse, you see! You better get selfish on that point and produce children, for heaven’s sake. All [your] marriages have turned out to be wastage for me. With understanding, otherwise you will get thugs as your children. With understanding, with love, with aspiration that the blessings of God has to come, otherwise what [useless] marriages? Oh God.

Better now.

As it is your foundations are weak and such great people want to get their birth on this Earth and you are so adamant. Poor things.

Yogi: Mother? There is also Patrick from Birmingham, is a newcomer.

Shri Mataji: Who?

Yogi: Patrick.

Shri Mataji: I could see that. Well he’ll be all right, he’s a seeker. He’s all right. You got the cool breeze? Are you feeling the cool breeze Patrick? Not yet? Vishuddhi he has. Anybody cures his Vishuddhi, he’ll be all right. Just put your hand. Douglas [Fry] will you please try.

(recording ends)