Finding the Truth

Norwich (England)




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Public Program. Norwich (UK), 4 July 1981.

Shri Mataji : [disrupted recording] I have come to Norwich before also once and always I had a desire to come to Norwich though the response last time was rather disappointing for all the Sahaja yogis and they were not very anxious to come down here. But I know for definite that there are lots of seekers in this place. And they are involved into things which they will realize very soon are of no benefit.

There are seekers and seekers in this world. My experience I have seen that some seekers are true seekers and ultimately they come to the truth. They discard everything that is artificial, that is not the truth. They go on working it out as in Sanskrit it is said, “Neti, Neti,” go on saying, “Not this, not this,” rejecting, and then you come to the truth. It happens.

But there could be some who are fake in the sense that as you have got fake gurus, you have got also fake seekers. They just start seeking out of fashion. But in this Norwich of yours, I must say, whether people like it or not you have really very good seekers. And they have to come to the truth. It is rather difficult to make them understand that seeking is not a shopping. We cannot go on shopping. You see you have one guru, you go and see another one, you go and see another from Christianity to Islam, this and that. You go on moving and then ultimately you form a habit of seeking. You go on seeking. Like a momentum it goes on working. And the seeking goes on and on and on. And you reach a point where you find that you cannot change your habit of seeking.

Even when you have found the truth, it’s like a rat race. Is a seeking race, I have seen in this world has set in. Now the seeking has started because the time has come. The time has come for fulfillment of that seeking. That’s why the seeking has started. But we must logically understand what are we to seek and what are the ways and methods of discriminating between the real and the unreal. Even logically you can understand that

We have had great prophets and great incarnations like that of Christ on this earth and all their Advents have left us with great understanding of what to expect of a real person. The first thing is that you cannot pay for divine love. You cannot pay. Just you cannot pay for it. It has got nothing to do with money business nothing at all.

You cannot do any courses. Imagine people doing courses in spiritual life. I mean, you mean to say that those who cannot afford, those who are poor, they cannot get their realization? It is very simple as that. Money is your problem. You have created money, not God. God doesn’t understand money. It is impossible. How to understand money? It is very difficult. God doesn’t know what money is and what does he care for your money?

And this is one of the things which some of the Gurus have tried. It is to take money from you. Once you start paying the money, it’s a human nature; you see if you have paid for something, you continue with it. Like you go to a show. The other day we went to see one drama, some play and both of us didn’t like it at all. I mean my husband, Me, we didn’t like the thing. But he said, “Now we’ve paid for it and the driver will be coming later. So, what’s the use of getting out now?” So, we just continued with it till it finished.

It is like that. We’ve paid for it; so better go through it. But it is not so simple as seeing a play. It could be very, very dangerous. So, first of all this payment, which is a negative thing, has been used with a double wedge. First of all you pay them and secondly they use you for them. It’s a double wedge.

The second thing is that you cannot put in any effort for it. Because if it is a living force, it’s an evolutionary force and it has to happen to you, then you cannot pay for it. How much did you pay for Christ? Christ coming, did you pay anything? Now, of course, people are paying for everything, but that time?

Payment is one thing, and effort should be another thing one should be away from. You pay nothing, you put in no effort for becoming a human being. No effort at all. But it is difficult to understand that you can put in. You cannot put in any effort for God. It is spontaneous. It is a living force like a flower becoming a fruit without any effort putting into it. Just it becomes. It is built in. It is spontaneous, Sahaja.

Effort is also double-edged thing. Supposing I tell you that you stand on your heads and you’ll get God, you’ll do it. .I know you’ll do it, and you’ll do it day in and day out. You can. I have seen people chanting certain mantras which has no meaning, which is all nonsense, which is absolute nonsense, paying three thousand pound for it. And chanting that mantra day in and day out, becoming mad with that, without even thinking about it because you can do it. Whatever you can do, it is human, isn’t it? God does something, which you cannot.

If somebody says you have to jump, take out your clothes, jump in the air, go on saying something, all that’s it. That’s sufficient. They can do it. Taking out your clothes or color them into something, make it into a uniform, people like it that way. The other day only a suggestion came to me that better make some uniforms for Sahaja yogis and I was amazed at that.

But people get very much impressed by uniforms, by the outside, by the gross. And this effort is such a ego pampering stuff that people do it. They just do it because they like it you see. They’ll say also very proudly, “Oh, I am doing Hatha yoga,” without even understanding that this, these asanas or these physical exercises is a wee bit, a very little wee bit of the whole of Patanjali Yoga Shastra. And that this little bit that you do is, also must relate to your Kundalini, to your chakras, to your state at which you are. You are taking the whole medicine box into your stomach, very indiscriminate. So this is also used by these people. You cannot put in any effort you. You cannot pay for it.

Then the third one is even subtle. That is, people think that they can intellectualize it, they can rationally reach it. So they listen to lectures. Oh, very good lectures. They think by reading something, reading books, you are going to get it. I mean, there are books and books and books. So far none of these great people have written, Christ has written no book. It is very difficult to write also. They wanted me to write. I said, “It’s impossible. I just don’t know how to start and how to end it. The truth and the knowledge is so great.”

So they use this to satisfy your intellectual feats, you see. They will go on saying that you jump on to this and then jump onto that and jump onto that and jump onto that, jump into that and, you’ll see, find you are back in the seat.

I have seen there are funny organizations also which teach like, let us imagine that we are in that new awareness, now imagine. Can you imagine? Now supposing that you imagine even that you are monkeys. Can you jump like that? I mean how can you imagine like that?

It’s like a very nice story I read in my childhood. It impressed me very much. It is known as Punishment of [Unclear: Shahapez]. There was one gentleman called Shahapage and he was supposed to be an architect. He came, a hypocrite and an imposter. He came to a King and said, “I want to build a huge big palace for you, and I am such and such.” He had all fake certificates with him. And the King believed him and he gave him lot of land to him and said, “Now go ahead. You spend this money – whatever you want you can have it – and make a big huge palace for me.”

And he, after six months he said, “Now, the palace is ready”. When the King went there, it was just the same. There was nothing done. He said, “Oh, you cannot see because you have gross eyes. It is there,” he said. Really, he befooled him. First the King was wondering, “What’s the matter with this man?” but he was a clever intelligent man. He could understand that. He said, “Now see, this is a big palace. This is your darba. This is your big Court where you enter in and this is the place where you sit. This is the throne made of gold where you sit very comfortably and here are the people who will be sitting there and receiving you and all that.”

The King smiled and he took him around a little bit and said, “Now I am very much satisfied with your work. You have done tremendously well. I could not imagine anyone working it out that good.” He said, “Now may I request you that you sit on the throne as I would like to award you this special gift that you can sit on the throne not the King.” Poor man, he had to go on sitting like that. He said, “You go on sitting. It’s very comfortable. Enjoy yourself.” He was tired, absolutely tired. He said, “Better be seated,” and then he fell at the feet of the King and said that, “I am sorry for all that I have done.”

So to imagine that you are this and imagine that and to be identified, to be befooled like that, is not the way seeking is going to be. We have to get it. We have to actualize it. It has to happen to us. Do we understand that we are going in a circle all the time? Any guru comes; you are with them. Another guru comes and you are with them. It’s a shopping, as I said, going on, and it is very difficult to make them stop.

There is a fellow who has written a book about Me, and a big book, and he came to me. He said, “Mother, I know now I have found the truth. This is the truth I have found myself, no doubt. I have got that vibrations. I have got collective consciousness. I have seen the Kundalini rising. I have seen with my own eyes the pulsation of the Kundalini. You can see it yourself. Everything I have seen and I am giving realizations to others but still I think I have to still seek.” I said, “Why?” “Because it has become a second nature with me to seek.” I said, “Now will you stop that rat race of seeking?” And now he is all right. This is what it is. You cannot play games with yourselves. You cannot go on like this. We have to stop it at a point.

One has to know that Divine has nothing to gain from you. Truth has nothing to gain from you. Truth stands on its own glory, in its dignity. It doesn’t need anything from you, does it? What can you do to adorn? What can you put on that? What can you give to that? How can you add to that? It’s only you are adorned. It is only you gain it. If you get the truth it is you who has been enlightened. It’s not the truth that is going to receive anything from you, is it? If that is your idea then you are sadly mistaken. You cannot pay for truth. Truth is there. It is there. Reality is there. How can you pay for it?

Just think of it that we are paying for something that exists, that is there. How can you pay for it? And what effort can we put in? Say this room is very beautiful; it is very beautifully done. To see this, it is there. You just see it. I mean someday somebody may put a ticket for it – that’s a different point – but to see it you don’t have to put any effort. If you have eyes you can see, but if you have no eyes, then? Then something has to be done.

But not you; you cannot do it. Like, as I last time told you, these candles who are not enlightened cannot do anything about their enlightenment. Some enlightened light has to enlighten them. So this is the fourth point, which they use. That you have to have a guru. Without a guru, how will you be saved? Even your evolution took place through some leader coming in. So somebody has to be there. So, they jump in. The market is created and they are imported here very nicely through Norwich. It’s easier, perhaps, because of the port being there, perhaps. And because we do not know what to seek, we fall a prey to it.

I have told you already that whatever you can do is yours, is human, but whatever God can do, is His own. You cannot transform one flower into fruit, leave alone the billions and billions of them, and that is His job. He has to do it. And that power has to flow through someone to do it. So this is the fourth point they arrive at. “Oh, He is a Guru. You should be absolutely obedient to that person. You should not ask any questions. If you ask questions, you cannot get your realization.”

Today’s subject is like that. That’s why I am moving in that line, you see. They said, “You talk on this, Mother.” Like we had one lady coming from Norway. She stayed with me and she argued morning till evening; she just argued with me. I asked her, “Where have you been?” She said, “I have been to many Gurus”. I said, “Did you argue with them?” She said, “No.” “Which one was your last?” She said the last one was the Lama who came from Tibet. All right, everybody come from Tibet is a Lama now! And whether those Lamas have anything to do with God, nobody knows, but as long as they come in those tattered clothes, oh, they are great.

If they come like so-called detached people, people accept them. It’s a circus. But the worst was when he came, this special gentleman. He told the people who called that, “If you want to have me there you’ll have to make a house with marble floor.” Imagine! In Norway to have marble! In India, it is all right; it’s cheaper there.” So poor things starved themselves for one year, lived on potatoes perhaps – after all young people don’t have so much money even in Norway. I don’t know how they must have managed, and they made one floor of marble for these parasites to come in.

And this fellow came down and he would sit on a thing like that and she said, “We had to enter from a door and bow to that fellow one thousand and one times.” One boy finished. “What about arguments?” I said.” She said, “Arguments? We were so fagged out and tired, we walked off.” One thousand and one time to bow. They had to take to very loose clothing because with tight clothes they couldn’t do it. “Oh, terrible it was!” she said. “What did he teach?” She said, “Oh, if you cannot do it, you cannot reach even one step forward.”

Yesterday I heard of another organization, where they have some steps. You have to go up the steps and stand there and bang your head with some thing, coconut or something. Then you drop down, make some circus there, and then you have reached the fifth step. All this is nonsense. Don’t believe in all these nonsensical things. This is absolute nonsense.

You have got Christ before you to understand. Did he do all this nonsensical things? He lived a very normal life and a person who is a realized soul is the most normal person. He doesn’t have any eccentricities. He doesn’t go into tantrums. He doesn’t bother about comfort. He doesn’t bother about food or anything. He is Lord of himself.

You cannot capture that person. You cannot. And such a personality you can develop because you are a seeker. This is one point which they have caught up is that you do not achieve anything with these people, nothing at all. Like, they’ll say, “Oh, I have raised your Kundalini.” “How?” “Because you are jumping like a frog.” Can you imagine? Jumping like a frog! Is that you are seeking? It is so superficial. You see, people are so superficially built up. They are so superficial that they believe in such nonsensical things. They are not seekers. They just go to a lecture, just to hear some lecture, and they’ll think, “Oh, I am jumping like a frog.” Now, are we going to become frogs or worms? We are going to become higher personalities, higher people. Then it comes to us what higher things we have achieved from these people. Have we achieved anything? Nothing whatsoever. Nothing whatsoever.

What are we to achieve? As Christ has said, you are to be born again. Something very important, you are to be born again. Now what is that? That means some sort of an artificial baptism done by somebody. Putting some water on your head, do you get born again? Do you get? Like an egg you put in and you just put in some water. Now you are a bird. Does it become a bird? Imagine it is a bird, can you, will it become? Even if you give a nice dress to a child and the child goes in before the thing and you have a nice champagne party but will the egg become the bird?

Put yourself to that then. It’s time now for us to face it. Like the other day we had somebody in Cambridge. He came forward with a great gusto. He said, “I can understand all other people like Buddha” – according to him they are all wasted – “Buddha, Mohammed. But Christ, he said. I said, “What do you think of Christ?” He said, “Christ is something special.” I said, “Yes, it is so. Then what? What have you done about him?” He said, “I believe in Christ.” I said, “Really? And what have you achieved out of that?”

You believe as if you see it is like adorning Christ by saying, “I believe in Christ.” What have we achieved? Have you awakened Him within yourself? Has He given you any powers of your spirit? This is the last thing one should know that we have to achieve the powers of our spirit.

Everything that is said into all the scriptures has to be proved. Everything must have a meaning. Otherwise we are living in a fool’s paradise. You must accept it. You have to see that it is [unclear] you have to see that, not rationally but by experiencing it.

So, just now as he must have told you, how the Kundalini rises and it pierces through the fontanel bone area and you get the cool breeze in your hand. This is what is described as the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost.

Everywhere, I mean Mohammed Sahab has described it as Ruh – R-U-H – Ruh. It’s cool breeze, in every scripture. Of course, I mean in Indian scriptures, because you see that country didn’t have problems as you have here. Our nature is very good and kind to us. People could live in the forests and could manage. They had time to concentrate on their spirits and to find out the truths about life and they have found out. In the sixth century we had a great saint born in that country called as Adi Shankaracharya who has very elaborately talked about Kundalini, about realization, what to expect, what are the centers, how it works.

After that we had Kabir, very lately about 200 years back. Then we had Nanak. Nanaka compiled all the great works of all the realized souls and put them in a book called as Granth Sahab, which these horrible Sikhs are reading morning till evening. You see, it called as Akhanda Path. They do it for two and a half days. Can you imagine? Madness. They go on reading. And the last point they reach, one person reads say for about two hours. He puts his finger there. Then another one joins in. There should be no gap left, go on reading like mad. By reading are you going to reach to God? And they are reading that, written there, that by reading that you don’t go to God.

[Unclear, they are saying] why don’t you look into your self? You have to find it within yourself. They are reading, singing also. Who is going to look into? Like if I say that you have to take this medicine, say a particular medicine Anacin for your headache, you go on reading the prescription, “You have to take Anacin. You have to take Anacin.” You’ll have a greater headache. You can never get cured.

I mean, anything they try to do, human beings know how to make a mess out of it. Now at least you realize that I am here to tell you that don’t make a confusion of everything. This is a very confused times. This is all described also. This is a time of confusion. But keep yourselves alert and try to understand that if it is the truth, you have to actualize it. It cannot be brain-washing. You have to really actualize; you have to feel it within yourself.

Like anybody who comes and says, “I have got realization. Really? My Kundalini is up there, Mother. I am all right. My Guru has done it. He jumps like a frog, actually.” So, asked him, “How do you know that you are realized? Why do you believe your Guru?” He said, “Why I am jumping like a frog?” I don’t know what to say!

I feel quite peaceful. If you go to a pub also you might feel peaceful for the time being. Is that the way to look at it? Your awareness has to get to some new dimension. What is the new dimension you have reached in your awareness? You have to become collectively conscious. You have to become, again I’ll say become, become is the point. While you see, do you feel your centers on your fingers? Do your feel the centers of other people? Do you feel? If not, you have not achieved anything. You are just the same what you were, perhaps worst if not better.

And this is what I feel that this place, Norwich, is really invaded by such people. Last time a lady was there who told me about somebody who is now found out to be hoax. I told her, “What have you got from him?” “Oh! I am in love with him.” I mean, how many women in love with one man? I don’t understand this nonsense. Such a confusion, such a confusion.”

And the negative forces, the satanic forces are taking advantage of it because you are seekers. They are going to attack you; they are going to attack this Norwich again and again because there are seekers here. They always attack. They know. Moreover, we do not know that even when a child is born of a very high quality, in the childhood only they work out something.

But what impresses us most is the way they act. They create an act. Actually they study it very well and the second is the way they mesmerize, the way they hypnotize you completely. You don’t know where you are going.

We have here somebody who has been a head of a TM in Scotland. And he ended up with the epilepsy of his wife, his own epilepsy and the child getting epilepsy. It’s a fact.

In the beginning of Sahaja Yoga in India we would not allow any TM person to come in because we could not handle it. They are so badly hypnotized, we could not. But now in England I have managed it.

But with the experiences that these people have now, we find that after getting realization also, if you are not careful, you’ll be attacked. You’ll be attacked. It’s a very difficult thing to do Sahaja yoga in a way for Me, not so much for you. Because I have to really look after all of you. Because you do not know, it’s like a small little chicks coming out of the eggs. And then anything can jump.

One has to do with great patience, understanding and love. Because you do not know what you are facing, because Mr. Ego is there or superego is there, something is there. You are not there all the time. Even with realization the Kundalini drops down.

Like a small seedling, I am told that people are farmers here. They will understand. It’s very essential to look after them to give them water again and again. With the heat they may dry off, with too much water they may become rotten. With anything trampling on that they can be ruined. It’s a very risky game. And one has to work out with Me today.

Now in London I must say that we have lots of Sahaja yogis. They are Sahaja yogis because they are realized souls. They are, and you will be too. But just getting the realization one feels also great. “Oh, I felt very fine Mother.” “All right, then?” “I felt extremely relaxed. I am enjoying it,” and after one year they come back. “Oh, Mother, I have lost everything.”

Because this is a very crucial time of a month, which must be looked after, at least a month. And you get it so easily that you do not recognize it and you do not know how to maintain it. That is the problem. Even if you recognize it, you get so drenched with it that you forget that you have to maintain it.

In Indian villages it’s a different story. They are not touched by this. They are not interested. They are all interested in the West where the money is. You see, it’s like, where the sugar is, all the flies will fly.

Luckily my husband got elected to this job by so many countries, and I came to England. Actually I just came by chance, I should say all by Divine plan. That’s how I am here. Of course, I mean, there are many coming to India but somehow the Indian Sahaja yogis found it very difficult to adjust the Western people .For many reasons because people who are Indians in India are very different from Indians who come here. They are not so materialistic, simple people in the villages. They are simple and they are not attacked. Main thing they think they are not attacked. Nobody is interested, these gurus and all that, not interested in the villages. I work in the villages of India.

And this is what we have to know that we are attacked more because of our affluence. And one more point because you are saints. You are seekers. Seekers are born in these western countries. Perhaps I feel that they are to be comfortable. That was the design that they should have no problem financially. That’s why you get doles here; nowhere in the world you people can get doles. They don’t understand. This was providence, for you now to meditate, to achieve that, for you were born for this purpose only. This time is the judgment time. The Last judgment has started. The first important people are the saints are the seekers. I am not interested in non-seekers at all. I am not interested. I am not bothered about them. At the time being, I’d say now I am not bothered. Maybe later on. Just now I am only bothered about giving realization to people who are seeking and establishing that. That’s all is my problem.

And that’s what you must face. You must know that you are seekers. You have to get it and establish within yourselves. This is the truth that you are made as an instrument of God’s power and now you’ll be connected to the mains by His powers only, by his Divine love, and that the power will start flowing through you. You’ll be manifesting that power through your spirit and you’ll see for yourself and enjoy that.

Thank God, in Cambridge now we have many Sahaja yogis. But My first experience in Cambridge was horrifying, second was even worse. Then the, I think the fourth attempt, one great Sahaja yogi from London went down. He is not here today. He has gone to Spain now to work it out there, to Cambridge. And he got lots of people there and the center has started and a good center has started, people are working it out very well. It is so enjoyable, you see their faces, you can make out, so relaxed just like flowers. They are not abnormal people.

That’s how you have to also have it because you are seekers. Today whatever they are, you are going to be the same. You deserve it. It’s your own. This is what you are seeking. This is what you should have.

But we couldn’t find even one person in Norwich last time who was up to the mark to run a center. The reason – I would not say that there are not people of quality here, they are – but the reason is they are very much attacked, very much attacked of which they are not aware. And this time again when I said, “Why not Norwich?” Everybody said, “Oh, Mother!” I said, “No I am going to go.”

And I hope this time you’ll do some justice to yourself and your place. It has a special significance which I will tell later on, not now. Sometime I’ll tell you why Norwich.

May God bless you.

Have any questions please?

One may say, “Why me?” This one question could be, “Why Me?” I mean, I’d say that you better be in My place. I’ll be very happy. I don’t need anything in life except that I see that reaching you, I want you to give your own, that’s all.

This light is there. It is giving you light. Do we say, “Why do you give the light? Why not these walls?” I mean, that’s the purpose. What is there to feel hurt about it? Even I don’t know many things that you know, really I tell you I’m so [unclear: backdated?] in so many things that you can’t imagine, I can’t even sign a cheque. Till today I have to ask somebody, “Where do I sign?” I’m so hopeless. I mean, I have so many defects you can’t imagine, as far as the human norms are concerned. But I mean, if I know something I know that. So what is there to feel bad? And I want you to know. I want you to get it.

People can’t understand that if somebody really loves, really, then we can’t help it. And She can’t help it. She has to love. It emits, just flows. You can’t help it.

Any other questions?

Oh! he didn’t tell you? All right. Sahaja, Saha means with you, ja means born. It’s born with you. Yoga means union with God. The right you get to God, right to know your spirit is born with you, is spontaneous. It is spontaneous like a seed; it sprouts spontaneously, automatically. You cannot explain the mystery of spontaneity, can you?

That is what Sahaja is. Sahaja means born with you. Also another derivated meaning means simple. Sahaja means simple, easy. But Sahaja, saha means “with” and “ja” is born with you, spontaneous, innate. Like we breathe spontaneously. You don’t have to read books or pay for it, do we? In the same way your realization is a evolutionary process. And it has to be; it has to work out. The Divine has to work it out. Otherwise God, will lose his name. He’ll lose his reputation. He’ll lose the meaning for which he has created this Earth. He has to do it. It is He who is gracious.

You’ll be amazed, people who are getting realization. I’m Myself amazed at Myself or I should say I’m amazed at this graciousness of Divine. Even people who are punished by all laws of the world get realization. Even in the jail, in the lunatic asylum. Can you believe it? A lady came to see me from lunatic asylum. She got her realization and they wouldn’t take her back. They said, “You are normal now.”

Its tremendous, the way the grace has come on this Earth. [unclear: really] it has descended.

No, no, no. I must tell you about this one. It’s very important. In India, you see, every married woman has to wear it. It’s a sign of a married lady, you see. It’s something like your ring or something outwardly, but inwardly it’s very deep. It is placed at a point where this is the window of the center of Christ. And you can say this is the symbol of his blood. Looking at this point you can get thoughtlessly aware.

Looking at this point you can get thoughtlessly aware because Christ in you can be awakened. When you look at this point, Christ is awakened in you. And Christ came on this Earth to suck in our ego and super ego, means the sin, so-called sin. He is the one who has sucked, who has the power to suck our sins, if He is awakened. But He has to be awakened. Just not by saying that we’re Christians. He said, “You will be calling Me Christ, and Christ I won’t recognize.”

He is to be awakened within us. Now if I say that you watch here, there has to be a mark, isn’t it? And when you watch that, you’ll see, as Christ is awakened within Me, he’ll be awakened within you also and you’ll become thoughtlessly aware. There won’t be any thought. It’s very helpful. This is not a caste mark or anything which people think. It’s written in the Bible that those who will be saved will be known in John’s Gospel revelation that a mark they wear. This is that mark. I don’t want Sahaja yogis to wear that mark, you know, because in England they’ll start some sort of a ruling against it. It is not necessary. It is there. It exists.

But Indians who have come from India, they don’t wear it. I was amazed. I mean, every married woman, see, for her this is a very big thing. She has to wear it. I asked them, “Why don’t you wear?” They said, “Everybody laughs so we don’t want to wear it.” I said, “Why do they laugh?” They said, “They never appreciate anything, never appreciate. They’ll just laugh at you.” I said, “But you can say we can laugh at your lipstick. Why should they laugh at you?” They said, “That’s why we stopped it.” But it’s a sign of a widow. Just imagine! I mean, they said, “If you have to survive you have to remove it.” I said, “Let them laugh. Why to worry? When you understand the significance, you don’t want to declare that you are a widow, so why, this is also another sign of a married life.”

In India a married life and a married woman is the most respected thing, is the most respected, and she has to wear nine marks because she is so respected. She is like a Goddess. I mean, she is regarded as the Goddess of the family. That is how we maintain our family system. It is so important. Now you realize it that the house wife is a deity. There is a center for it within us. That doesn’t mean that men are in any way less. I mean, the men are the kinetic energy and the women are the potential energy. I mean we have no fight with them.

It’s question of understanding our rules in life. It’s completely equal but not similar. It gives you more peace, and happiness and joy, isn’t it? Now supposing my nose is placed here and my eyes are placed here. Will I be able to manage life? In the same way everybody has a rule and a place.

And these things help. In no ways you can see that our Prime Minister is a woman. And so many ministers are women in India. We have to maintain certain decency and decorum and the dignity of a lady. It’s there but there are many bad things in it. So many that I can’t count. So it’s better not to accept everything that is Indian as something great. Now they are becoming, they are developing, you see, so they are acquiring lots of plastics and acrylics. I have to carry nylons to India, can you imagine? When we have silks, they don’t like it. They want nylons as presents and a nylon sari is regarded as the greatest present for an Indian lady who must be having 150 silk saris.

We have to learn from you quite a lot. What to do? They came here to make money. They have become materialistic, absolutely materialistic. They go on counting pennies just like you do. I mean, absolutely it’s horrible thing. And to make up for them all the gurus have also come here. That’s what you are importing. And I am ashamed of them.

But they cannot befool Indians that much as they can befool you because you are naïve. A fellow whom I knew very well went to Germany and he made a lot of money. When he came back, I asked him, “How did you manage?” And he was a vagabond, absolutely a horrible fellow. And he said, “It’s very easy. I wore a saffron clothes and things like that and I took another fellow with me and we sat in one of the big squares. And he said that this is a guru, has come from Himalayas and this and that. All the money started coming in.

They don’t know any mantras. They don’t know any Sanskrit. They don’t know anything and the whole thing worked out. Now this is a realized soul. Now do you know that he/she is a realized soul? How will you know if she is a realized soul? Unless and until you are realized you won’t know, she is a born realized. There are many born realized in this country. How are we to know? You have no knowledge.

And all that is unknown is not Divine. You must try to understand through logic and then it will work out. Rationally, you cannot understand because rationality can go anywhere. I have seen people who have robbed banks, taken away other people’s money, can also rationally explain it but logic is very different. Logic is based on wisdom and on sustaining.

Any other question?

Question [not clear]

It’s correct. What you say is correct that Indian music has come through the seers. Indian music has not come through experimentation. It has come through the sages and they have used this Om. You see the Kundalini rising. When she rises, you see these seven chakras. She creates the seven notes and they, whatever they have been keeping up, is the melodies which are pleasing to your spirit. And that’s why if you are spiritually endowed, I mean we had now a very big program of one realized soul who came, is Pandit Jasraj in London. You will be amazed there was not a single Indian who attended it, not a single Indian. All were westerners. Can you believe it?

Indian people and India are two different things, I think, sometimes especially those who are here. Not one person attended his programs, while he was fantastic. You see, the whole thing, even the natya shastras what you call the Drama, is based, the whole science is based on Spirit. If you read the Natya shastra, it’s completely what words to be used, what is to be said to create a certain mood. Even the romance is based on Dharma, is based on sustenance.

I agree with you there, absolutely true, but everything we have lost. That heritage we have lost! We are all English now. Artificially English, not really. I mean if you meet an English man, maybe he may speak little cockneyed but you might find an Indian speaking perfect Cambridge English you see. Super! And you won’t be able to make it out whether he is an Indian or an English man but for his color. With the tailcoats the same. They have copied you very well, no doubt. But it’s a copy, in aesthetics, in understanding. Now the other day we had a very good program in that Mermaid thing. I was the only single Indian there enjoying that, only single Indian.

They don’t grow with [unclear :it and you have]. You are the people who are going to appreciate them more than they can appreciate their own heritage now. Here, these boys, they go to buy Indian music and there are Indian boys who are buying jazz or some cheap music. And when they are asked, “Why do you buy them?” they say, “There’s lot of speed in it, you see. We want speed now because we are very lethargic. So, we want some speed.”

Indian music builds up, you see. Slowly, slowly it rises and then it gets [unclear: raised]. It can be very speedy. It doesn’t start from the very beginning like a shock, “Dha-dha-dha-dha.” But they don’t understand.

It’s very surprising that Indian Music is now surviving because of you people, not because of Indians, because you are spiritually endowed. I am very happy to know that you have seen that beauty. It is because of your spiritual advancement, that’s all. But Indian people in the villages are still very Indian. You see, we are westernized, westernized, are copying, aren’t they?

Many people in India believe that Christ was born in England. Do you know that? Especially the converted Christians. For them an English man is at least a second cousin of Christ. What to do? This is the situation. And the other day I addressed a conference of Asian Women, the way they were fighting, our rights and this and that. I was amazed. I was amazed at them. I mean any Indian Conference like that I cannot imagine Indian women fighting like hooligans. “Oh God!” I just said, “What has happened to them? How could they behave like that? They have forgotten all the decency, the decorum, the grace that an Indian woman has to represent.” I was amazed. Then I told them, very frankly, that, “You are becoming horribly materialist and you’ll even have the culture which is worst than the labour class, even worst and worst of that, the way you are moving!”

You’ll be amazed, to earn money people have come from India who belong to very good families, and they working in Heathrow cleaning, sweeping. They have become sweepers. They wear gold bangles up to this much. They are not ashamed. In India let them go and even clean their own bathrooms, they won’t do. It’s shameful. It’s a fact. I feel ashamed of them. No wonder you people don’t like them. I mean, I can see that because they are not really Indian.

And when I told them, “No, don’t copy them. You should know about your own culture.” Do they know anything? They won’t even know the names of ragas and the melodies. They won’t even know the names of great artists we have in our country. Nothing! Such shallow people. I don’t know what has impressed them so much but you will find it out.

Especially the English have done some good to us. I must say that they are very scholarly people. They have done some good to bring forth the beauty of our architecture, beauty of our creativity all those things. They are connoisseurs. We are artists, no doubt.

You won’t believe how we have deteriorated. We are developed, you see. We are getting plastics in our families. For a very elite family where they have silver in the house, all right, it’s more important to have stainless steel. If you give them a glass, say of crystal, they won’t like it, but this glass is the best. If it is plastic, it’s even better.

Went to somebody’s house, a very rich man. “Oh,” he said, “I have a wonderful thing. Would like to see that? Oh, wonderful! You’ll be amazed. It’s such a beautiful thing I have got.” I said, “What is it?” Took me to his room. You wont believe that he showed me one of these bloated plastics, you see, which makes a sofa-like thing. He said, “See now, you can fold it. You can again blow in.” He had removed all his [unclear: cart] furniture. “This is so beautiful and it has colors.” He was in America for at least eleven years and this is what he picked up! To admire plastics. But this is what is happening.

You see when people contaminate others they just leave whatever is wrong. You should never copy anyone. We should be what we are. Why should we copy? What is the need? God has created this Universe with different varieties, so beautiful to see, isn’t it?

All these cultures, different things, are so beautiful. Imagine, every tree looking alike like a military system standing there, all uniformed. How would you feel? So there is goodness about both the things but the best thing is that we understand the values that are Divine.

For example, Stone Hedge in this country, it’s a temple. But how will you know? How will you know what it is? Unless and until you have vibrations how will you know? As you have been so scholarly, you should be deeper into I, and achieve that awareness within you by which you can feel it. Unless and until you have that awareness, it’s all blindness, isn’t it? How are we to know?

I don’t see world as different. I don’t see India and England because England is the Heart according to me of the Universe. And India has the Kundalini. Now the whole body of the Universe is one to me then how can I see it separate? I cannot see eyes separate and nose separate. I can’t see Christ and Mohammed separate. I cannot see. I cannot understand, you see, in my concept. I cannot understand. They are in complete unison with each other. Absolute melody. Because they are absolute, they are ideal. We cannot think of something so perfect.

England has to improve because it is the heart and India has to awaken. The heart is lethargic and they are sleeping. What am I to do? And Europe is the liver. Imagine, they are all drinking. God save the liver of the Universe. This is how I look at it. Because it is. Everything circulates through here. Laws, everything. You do not understand your importance; that’s the main point. Everything circulates from here. If you could understand, you would reach some ideal conditions. It’s the shape of a heart, too. Such a little thing compared to the Universe.

They went up to China in a different way. That way they should not have gone, you see. But they did. Everything can circulate through here. But you must have proper blood, isn’t it? Purified blood you must have.

But India is the Kundalini. That’s also very important. But I don’t know if the seekers in England realize that. They are wiser than Americans. Americans are very shifty people. I am going to America. Keep your fingers crossed. I hope I’ll come back in one. But I must say Americans are great seekers. Very great seekers, they are. But the guru shopping is too much there, too much Guru shopping. You ask any American, he’ll give you a list of at least thirty to forty people he has been to.

I have been to Russia. I have been all over. Somehow I have been. And I know the problems that exist everywhere. And there are many who are going to get realization. The young especially, they are going to get.

Like Algeria. Algeria had a problem. Fundamentalists were taking over absolutely. The Government is still afraid of the fundamentalists. But when this Iran thing came up, of course, the Divine is also working it out. And when the Iran thing came up they started seeing the young people. Oh, God! This is fundamentalism. All this brutality. So they thought what to do now. They said, “If this is God, better run away from such a God.” So, they were about to jump into communism, when one of them came. I mean, they had formed an organization. One of them came to London, got his realization. He gave realization to five hundred people, all engineers, doctors, young.

The way we have found out because it’s not a democratic country, but in Paris we have lots of them. That’s how it is going to work out. It’s a very subtle plan of the Divine. But let’s see what all Norwich has to do in this big plan. All right. And to understand India, you must go to villages, not in the cities. Mostly take you to these horrible tourist places which are no more.

You must see everything in its proper way. Whatever it is I am not here to make you Indians, nor am I there to make them English. I am criticized in England that, “She is trying to make them Hindus,” and in India I am criticized that I am going to make them Christians. Can you believe it?

To understand fanaticism, it is better to see all of them together, and you are amazed how they are fighting for what there isn’t any truth in it. It’s very funny, like I said that Christ’s Mother was the Holy Ghost and the fifteen percent of the Sahaja yogis at that time resigned from Sahaja yoga. They couldn’t believe that that could be so. They said, “She is the woman who was just crying all the time. How can she be a Holy Ghost? You see, the Holy Ghost in India is known as Adi Shakti. So, how can She be?”

And Christ did not say She was the Holy Ghost because he didn’t want people to attack Her; otherwise he would never have forgiven them. He said that whatever is done against him is all right but anything against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. And they just resigned. They said, “Oh, this lady is preaching Christianity. Beware of her.”

Now I have to wear a sari because I was born in India. I had to be born somewhere. If I had been born in Norwich I would be wearing dresses like you. But I was born in India, all right. It won’t look nice for me to wear your dresses, isn’t it? It will be copying. So you have to be born somewhere.

This is very difficult thing for any Universal being to be born on this Earth and make people understand that you are Universal too. Only your Universality has not been awakened. Once you become, you forget all, you transcend all, and you just see the variety and enjoy it.

Now should we have our realization? At the very outset I have to say that most of you will get realization, I am sure. But after that you have to keep the contact. And you have to continue with it; otherwise, you will lose it. I am sorry, that’s the only thing one has to remember. You don’t have to pay nothing, but you have to pay attention to yourself and respect your realization. That is the most important. That you are as a seeker and that if you have found it, you have to work it out and maintain it. Only connection is given but you have to maintain the connection, you see, because sometimes it could be loose. So we have to establish.

With love and understanding and respect, put your hands like this. Both the feet on the ground and just hands like this. Here are the centers. These are the centers of the sympathetic right and left. If you can find out from the book that these are the ones which are seven centers – 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 – and this is the center. Here is the fontanel bone area. So when it opens out, you start getting the cool breeze in the hand but before that when it crosses this center of Christ, then you get thoughtlessly aware. Nirvichar Samadhi. And when it crosses that you get your self-realization. It’s that simple as that.

It has to happen to you. It will happen to you but if it does not, you should not feel bad about it. We’ll work it out again and it can happen. Like a person who knows swimming can save another person and then you learn swimming so you can save others. So those who are realized soul know how to raise your Kundalini. And if they have to raise your Kundalini, you should not mind. Now put your hands like this, just like this and close your eyes. Just close you eyes.

Keep your eyes shut. The only thing is you have to ask for it. If you have no desire, nobody is going to force it. As Christ has said, you have to knock. You have to ask, ask for your realization. It’s a very big thing you are asking. Just you have to ask that, “Mother, give me my realization” Just ask thrice you have to ask.

Are you feeling the cool breeze in the hand? Are you feeling? Good. Are you? Not yet? Keep your eyes shut. It’s better. Put your hands straight, straight like that. You have to forgive, forgive people. It’s a big load. Just say, “I forgive. I forgive everyone.” Just say that. It’s a very big load because after all, if you do not forgive, who is suffering? You, not others.

Just you have to say, “I forgive.” Thrice you have to say, “I forgive. Mother I forgive everyone.” Just say that; just say. You’ll feel very much better. Much lighter. It’s all right? All right. When you say, “I forgive,” then only you can say, “Forgive me also if I have not paid full attention to my spirit.” You can say that. That also to be said thrice.

You can ask a question saying that, “Mother, am I the Spirit”? Ask a question. Very simple. You ask a question, “Mother am I the spirit?” See, it’s working, answer coming. These are all the answers, you see, now your computer starts working. You ask the answers to the truth. “Am I the spirit, Mother?” You Are. You are the spirit. You’ll feel very much lighter and blissful. Put your right hand on your heart and ask the question, “Mother, am I the Spirit?” The spirit resides in the heart. Put the right hand on the heart. Just ask the question, “Mother, am I the spirit?” All right?

You have to make a statement that you are the seekers of truth. You are. You don’t want anything else but truth, isn’t it? I’ll come down and see.

H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi