Radio Interview, Brighton (UK), 10 July 1981.
Broadcaster: Now, a little while ago with John Gribbin, we were being conducted on a whistle-stop tour of the external universe, but now we hope to probe a little deeper. A spiritual leader, who believes that every country in the world is linked to a particular part of the body, but who scorns religious gurus, who preaches that the essence of life lies within the [??SOUNDS LIKE evidual/Ovidual. Does he mean ‘individual’?] awakening yet [not sure here if the ‘comma’ comes before the “yet” or after, as meaning not clear] is extremely rich and married to a United Nations official. Well, I dare say I am about to be told that these apparent contradictions are of my own making, but I am very pleased to welcome to the sounding studio The Mataji Nirmala Devi, together with a local practitioner of Sahaja Yoga She espouses – Ray Harris. Now, he’s a Brighton geologist so we’ve got both sides of the spectrum and we’re very pleased to welcome you both to the studio.
Now, perhaps I could start with You, Mother Mataji. You’re an Indian, now what kind of following do You have at home?
Shri Mataji: There are lots of people in the villages of India. I work in the villages of India, not so much in the cities, and the villages are not yet touched by the superficialities and the pretensions of life so much. People are very simple and it’s easy to get them Realized. I mean, the Self-Realization – the Spirit. They can feel it much faster than others can; it works much faster there and it has improved their lives to a very great extent, because of this happening within yourself. You get cured and there was a possibility of starting even a national health scheme on those grounds, because you don’t have to pay anything for it, and also you give up all your bad habits like drinking, smoking, and there are other blessings that also follow with it. So it’s a very great thing, because you don’t have to pay anything for the countries which are developing now.
Broadcaster: I think a lot of people can understand that, within the context of your own country. It seems to make sense in a very simple world where people don’t have the problems of the developed world that we have. But Ray Harris, does this have a lot of meaning in life over here, because things are so different, aren’t they?
Ray Harris: Yes, but you see, nowadays we’ve got so many people who are really trying to return to the simpler, more natural values. I mean, we spend most of our time trying to compete with each other and see who’s going to be better and all sorts of things like bad results in families. You know, we see this and we feel that things are not going right, in spite of our affluence, in spite of our intelligence, in spite of our facility in the scientific world. We see all around us emotional despair, rioting as of late, even in Britain, which is traditionally a good country for people generally, even here things are starting to get very strange. And those who have any awareness or intelligence can’t fail to notice something’s wrong, and people are seeking. They’re looking for the return to calmness and peace of mind and serenity.
Broadcaster: Well of course there are many fringe religions in Britain and indeed, in these troubled times, they’re growing. There are more people who are turning to religious experiences of one kind or another, but what is so special about Yours? Is it another established church?
Shri Mataji: No, it is not. It is not an established one, it is neither an organized one. It is something very natural within us; spontaneous. It is the breakthrough of our evolutionary process, the last one. We have a meaning. We human beings are created for a meaning, for a certain purpose. We are not purposeless, and the evolution has taken place, has brought us to this level of human awareness and we have to break through; to become the awareness of the Spirit. It has been said by all the Scriptures. I am not here to deny any Scripture or any religion that was established, but by this you understand that they all are belonging to one Universal Power. While we are fighting because of our ignorance, it is the very integrating thing it transcends all the races, all the nations and all these barriers which human beings in their ignorance have created.
Broadcaster: Now, You’re the Spiritual head of this movement, now how can You spread the word and the Gospel of Your Message when You have no organized Church? It must be rather difficult.
Shri Mataji: Not at all, because there are seekers, as you said that the people here are very complicated, and sometimes this confusion gives them a greater seeking than that is in India, because people in the developing countries are seeking now material wealth. But the people, where they are affluent, they are seeking the spiritual wealth, so lots of seekers are born in these places, and it’s easy, very easy to talk to them and this can work out.
Broadcaster: So how do you actually practice this, Ray? What do you actually have to do to try and bring in some of these ideas into your lives?
Ray Harris: Well, it’s not really a case of practising anything in particular. You see, once you’ve met Mataji, something happens inside you. Normally speaking, if you’ve led a life which isn’t too, I don’t know, messed up in some way, emotionally or perhaps with drugs and things, you can feel this process inside you. Perhaps many people have felt shivers up their backs or tingling or blissful feelings when they’re listening to good music or seeing something – a beautiful scene or something, or even a beautiful lady. And this kind of joy that you feel, it’s the only way that we have to feel joy, you can recognise. I mean, this is the only way I recognised Mataji, is when She raised my Kundalini and I suddenly felt this tingling up my back and this joy and peace. I thought, “Ha, that’s it!” It’s simple. There’s no church or organization so the only thing we have to actually do is to keep ourselves cleansed. The Kundalini does it Herself inside you and essentially, all you have to do is lead a normal life, without excesses, balanced ideas, confidence, responsibility to yourself and to your Kundalini and also to other people – to your brothers and sisters and other people who have also had Kundalini raised, you have a common language.
Broadcaster: I think a lot of people would agree with a lot that you say, but nevertheless, you’re really pinning it on to one person, the lady we have here. Now, I mean, how can you say that it comes from just this one person?
Ray Harris: The vibrations come from this one person. If you put your hands out towards Her, you may be able to feel a sensation in the palms of your hands, you may feel yourself getting slightly more relaxed. You may feel yourself just feeling a little more joy inside, I don’t know. I mean, when I put my hands towards Her, I mean if people are listening – even people who are listening to the radio can put their hands out towards the radio – and some people will feel a tingling or some sensation in the palms of their hands, or even on their heads. And this is the judge of it; it’s something which happens internally. It’s to do with the Para-sympathetic nervous system.
Broadcaster: See, Mother Mataji, You’re said to have these gifts; I mean how do You react to that? Don’t You think it’s a little dangerous, that a lot of people should just look to You, as an individual? It’s quite a responsibility, isn’t it?
Shri Mataji: It’s like the Sun. The Sun doesn’t feel anything is dangerous, you see. And it just emits, what can I do about it? I mean, if you could do it, I would be very happy, but it’s not so, I have to do it, what to do?
Broadcaster: So, are You saying that it is something special with You or could any of us, could I develop these gifts?
Shri Mataji: No, you can get it also.
Broadcaster: I could pass this on to other people?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course, of course, of course.
Ray Harris: This is what we’re doing, it’s all we do.
Shri Mataji: You see, one light can enlighten another person. Nowadays, these boys are curing others and they are doing all this work. I can’t go everywhere. It’s done like that. You see, you become that, you become collectively conscious yourself.
Broadcaster: Well, I’m not sure what everybody’s going to make of this. I think there’s something in it but, well I don’t know!
Ray Harris: Come and see.
Shri Mataji: Why not try? Why not try?
Broadcaster: Well, thanks, I think perhaps we will.
Ray Harris: We’re having programs tonight at the [SOUNDS LIKE Silas Benny] Hall which is at the Art College on Grand Parade, Brighton where Mother Herself will be appearing and proving to you that this has validity. Tonight at 7.30 and tomorrow at 7.30 also.
Broadcaster: Well, there you are, you’ve got the invitation, why not try it?