1981-0921 Public Program, Day 2, New York (USA)
It’s really unbelievable isn’t it? It sounds so fantastic. I have been here about nine years back and I told them that, “It’s within you, there’s a simplest thing, is a living process; it works out, for nothing at all. It’s your own.”
But what I found, that Americans were still busy guru shopping; they wanted to go through that, they wanted to do all that. What could I do? I told them, “You don’t have to do all this. Why do you want to waste your energy? Why do you want to waste your money? Nothing, you just have it!” But they wouldn’t. They wanted to spend their money – they had the money that time, they thought they can buy some bhagwans and gods and things like that. All sorts of things were on when I came here, and they wouldn’t
listen to me. They wouldn’t listen to me.
I said, “You cannot purchase it, you cannot buy it. They are misleading you.” So I thought, better to retire for some time from America. But in India now, in the villages, we have thousands of people who have got realization – it’s so simple. You are seekers, you are seekers because the time has come that you have to be here and that you have to get your realization. It’s very simple. After all, God has created this great world; this creation is His own and He has to save it. Jolly well, He has to do it. But it is so incredible, they can’t believe it, it’s impossible. They think, “How can that be? We must stand on our heads,” or, “We have to pay a lot of money, we have to become broke, we have to give up this, give up that. Do all sorts of nonsensical things and then, what we find? We are left high and dry.” It’s true, I know, it’s true. But you could have avoided it; when I came here, I told people very, very clearly and plainly.
But I was amazed, also, apart from this: they did all kinds of funny things about what I announced to them. I said that you are to be born again. Alright, they taped me and they started organizations with this name that, “We are born again” – they certified themselves and they started another organization with some vibrations, something [UNCLEAR Sun] instead of being honest to yourself and getting the thing down to Earth. I didn’t know why they were getting into these hallucinations which is imaginary things. We have to be honest to ourselves. It’s extremely simple. But when you go to these places and do that, you really get damaged.
The task is very difficult now for me, I find, comparatively. It would have been much better [UNCLEAR] no doubt. But they won’t listen to me, even up to the point that they said, “You must charge some money. People are doing it for so much, so much. At least charge some money or then people will have no value for it.”
I said, “If they start valuing it in money, they’ll never value it.” It should not be done; whatever is wrong should not be done. And they just wouldn’t accept it; it’s such a funny situation.
That’s how I went back; nine years I waited. But Americans are great seekers, they are, despite all these damages. We had a very good experience the other day, with all these people who were there. Especially, we went to Boston where there were about fifty-four people or so, and fifty of them got realization, just like that. Fifty of them, can you believe it? I was amazed. It’s expanding. Consolidation may be a problem, but that should be consolidated.
I did give realization to some here, and they were quite funny. They started charging people for their vibrations. Just imagine? They got it without any payment or anything, but they started charging people for it, and when they came to India, we found out they had lost their vibrations. They were very heated-up people and we told them, “You cannot charge for it. How do you charge?”
He said, “How are we to live?”
I said, “How did you live before? Live like that.”
“Oh, we were schoolteachers, we were…”
I said, “Do that. You cannot charge for these vibrations; these are Divine, this is love, you cannot charge. How can you sell that? Can you sell your love?”
It’s a simple thing Americans have to understand, that you cannot sell it. It’s too simple for them to understand, that there could be someone who really loves, just loves for love’s sake. There could be one, at least, like that in this whole world. If they understand this, then it will be easy for them to understand that all these things are built-in you; they are already made like that. It’s not at all difficult. Like a candle which is made properly and there’s a wick; it’s very easy to enlighten that if you are enlightened. What do you do? What goes out of this candle? It’s nothing. You just enlighten another light without any difficulties. It’s nothing special, nothing great; it’s very, very simple.
But we want to make everything complicated, and what am I to do? If you have to eat your food, you eat like this, isn’t it? Do you put your hand down like that? If you have to breathe, which is so vital; it is the simplest. Do you go to libraries to read how to breathe? It’s all so simple, you won’t believe. Like sprouting a seed, it’s a living process; it has to be simple, spontaneous. How can it be complicated?
Then, another problem is that here, people read a lot about God. You can’t read about Him, you have to know it. They just read, “This is the God, that is the God.” Today we met somebody who said that, “I believe in a man who calls himself Jesus.”
I said, “Very good, put him on the water. Can he walk on the water? If he can walk on the water, alright, he’s Jesus. But does he walk? Put him on the water.”
It’s very simple. If I say I am something, I must do it, isn’t it? If somebody says, “I can make you fly,” you start paying him money; such a lot of money goes to this fellow. Does he fly? If he flies, then he can teach you. If he does not know himself how to fly, how will he teach you?
It’s a very logical thing: you have to know that we are not going to fly anymore now. We have flown as birds, so we are not going to fly or hop – we have been that. We are going to become something more in our awareness. We see the simple thing we should know that we have to become that. Something in our own awareness, something has to happen that should make us something that we are, that we should become the Absolute. We are not what we are, we are something else – we are like our, say, mind, we are our rationality which can go anywhere. It’s not Absolute.
Supposing somebody comes here, a Mr. XYZ and says, “This is a very nice car.” Another one will come and say, “Oh, it’s not so good.” Another one say, “Maybe good, maybe.” Three human beings, all of them are human beings. They are not animals, they are human beings from the same place, from the same village, you can take it. Put them together, they will have three opinions. If they continue to have criteria, we shall say – see they can have even thousand, if they change. So why?
Because they have not got their absolute values. there must be something absolute within us, when you start [INAUDIBLE], you start feeling the absolute. As he said, really it happens to you. You become that in no time, and you can feel it – on your hands, on your fingers – the reality. You ask a simple question, “Is there God?”
Somebody told me, “I don’t believe in Christ.”
I said, “Alright, why? Have you seen Him? Why don’t you believe?”
“I don’t believe.”
“But why? What is the reason?”
“I believe in this and I don’t believe in that.”
“Well, why? Is there any absolute by which you have judged whether there was Christ or not? Whether it was true or not? Whether it’s just a myth?”
“No, I have not.”
“Then how can you say ‘I believe’?’ You keep yourself open!”
First, you become your Self – that’s like Buddha. He said, “Don’t talk of God or anything. First of all, let them become the Self. If they become the Self, then talk of other things. Because if they do not, if you talk of something else, they will come out with their own ideas, that, ‘I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe in this, I don’t believe in that.’ ” So He said, “Alright, you become your Self, that’s the first thing. Once you become your Self, then you will start seeing other things through your awareness, which is something special.”
And that’s what should happen to you; is to first become your Self. Then you start judging other things because now you have that awareness by which you can judge. How are we to know that – supposing these vibrations come to us – whether they are absolute our not? After all, we should find out whether they are absolute or not.
For that, we can use a method which is I call as a relative method. Today I told them that you get two boys who are from a lunatic asylum – certified mad people. Then get two people who have got cancer, and then get two people, one realized soul and one un-realized soul – according to me, one is realized, and one is un-realized. Now you put all of them to me and ask them to see their vibrations. You will find the person who is mad – he will start doing all kinds of actions maybe; he may feel shaking all over the body; his whole body might shake like this; the whole thing might [UNCLEAR]. The person with the cancer will feel terrible heat getting out of his body, a heat so much so, it happens sometimes, that the room does not need a heater – in London, even during wintertime.
Now, you have another one who is not a realized soul. Such a person may a little bit feel hot, or something, and after some time he starts feeling the cool breeze, gradually, for a little bit.
Then you have a realized soul and a little child sitting. He said, “I was [UNCLEAR taking] it when I entered here. Yes it is there, I know it is there.”
It’s so simple because it is vital. It’s important; evolution is the most important thing. That’s how we have become human beings and you have to become something higher. It’s all placed within us very nicely, very safe, very protected. But, of course, we go headlong into every sort of thing and naturally we get damaged. With all these beautiful things within us, I see people doing all kinds of nonsensical things, going into all kinds of extremes; there’s no need to be in extremes. Somebody comes and tells them, “You stand on your head, you’ll get to God.” They’ll go on doing it. I mean, use your logic, use your brain. How can you get to God by standing on your head? If it is a living process, if it’s absolutely living, then you cannot do anything about it, because human beings cannot do anything that is living.
At this time, I had told these people who got their realization last time that I will tell them about the Kundalini and the centres and about what they mean. In any case, we have got now books for you also, to go through them and see what it is, and you can read them and you can find out about it. But in any case, I will tell you little bit.
Here is the chart. This is the Kundalini here in the triangular bone called as sacrum.
This is not important to know, but I am just telling you, because you’ll have curiosity later on, “Where is this Kundalini?” This Kundalini is placed in the triangular bone here, called as sacrum. Now sacrum means sacred; so the people knew about this, that it is a sacred bone. This bone is placed very securely at the base of the spinal cord. This is kept there as a residual force, but it is the energy of your desire of becoming one with the Divine. It is not yet manifested. That’s why it is called as a sleeping Kundalini; it means that power has not yet manifested.
On the left-hand side this power that is within us is the power of desire. On the right-hand side, there’s another power which is the power of our action.
[The left side] is the one that gives us our emotional life, our emotional side. This gives rise to the left sympathetic nervous system and is also looking after the psyche, which the psychologists talk about. But most of them are half-baked, so they just know about this part of the Kundalini, which they call as the ‘psyche.’ They know very little and when they try to do anything about it, they are so unauthorized that they create problems for others and create problems for themselves. They have no idea as to what we are, and they just try to meddle with your psyche, creating great problems for you.
[On the right-hand side] is the power of action which is responsible for our mental and physical efforts, because when we go into action, we put in effort. This is the area where our future lies [right side] and this is the area where our past lies [left side]. Past of our present life and beyond that is the collective Subconscious which is beyond that. Beyond this line [right side] is the Supra-conscious, [which] is the future, and beyond that is the collective Supra-conscious. These are the areas that are within us and the material side is below, and the hell is below that.
When we start getting any experience in life – say, a person is sitting and suddenly he starts jumping. He thinks, “I have got Kundalini awakening.” How can that be? If there is Kundalini awakening, you are in charge of that; you know you are the master. If you do not know what is happening to you, it is somebody else who is doing the tricks. Maybe you have moved too much onto the left-hand side and some spirit has possessed you, and he is making you jump. That cannot be any spiritual experience; spiritual experience is only one and when you get it, you become master of your Self. Unless and until that happens, one should not accept anything as a spiritual experience.
For example, a master, so called, who lives in Tibet or something, who has died and who is giving experiences. All this is all absurd things. You are your own master, no doubt, but you have to be made into it. Unless and until you are connected to the mains through this, unless and until you are baptized, you are not your Spirit. You are to be actually baptized, in the sense it’s a living process. Just like a seed sprouts, a seed’s primule comes out. In the same way, this Kundalini has to pass through all these chakras and enter through your fontanel bone area, awakening this centre. It sucks in the Ego and Superego, which is created by these two powers here – Superego and Ego – and just creating a portion of the head here, which is called as the fontanel bone area, very soft, and the thing gets out. You can feel the cool breeze of the Kundalini.
The Spirit resides in your heart. Nobody knows. They said, “God is in me.” Where is He? Where is He placed? He resides in your heart but you are not aware of it; it is not in your conscious mind, it is not in your central nervous system. It knows about you, but you are not conscious of it. When the Kundalini passes through these various centres and pierces through this one, then the seat of the Spirit is here, the seat of the Spirit. And that’s how, when the Kundalini touches there, the seat is informed, like the seat of your government is Washington: wherever may be the President, if the information goes to Washington, he is informed, like that, this is the seat. And when it informs, the Spirit knows about it, and then you start feeling the cool breeze, the emitting of the cool breeze in the hands which is called as the cool breeze of the Holy Spirit.
Some people asked me that, “Is it cool breeze or hot breeze?” You know that when there is any friction, even in the matter, it creates heat. So, it has to be cooled, but not very cooled; it is not very cool. If you become extremely cold, that also means that your left side is all blocked.
If there are imbalances in you, like you are too much emotional, then you’ll go more towards this [left] side, and this side is very, very vulnerable. And once you start going too much on that side, there are areas built within you which are called as Collective Subconscious.
The other day, as I told you, that cancer is caused by the attack of proteins – which are called as Protein 58 and all that, because the scientists don’t know what they are – they come from this area. They say it comes from the areas – I mean, the doctors are honest, because whatever they know, that’s what they say – it comes from the areas which are built within us since our creation. We call it as Collective Subconscious. We know all about it because you will, yourself, see when you get your realization, that all these things are there and they attack. This left-sided attack gives you a thing like cancer and many other troubles like mental problems and schizophrenia and all such things.
Right side movement too much, where these are all the psyche people like Mr. Freud, who was really half-baked and a funny person, who said that you should not allow any conditioning upon yourself and do as you like. He didn’t know that there is another power within us. If you try to do as you like, then what happens? You start living a life of an Ego, where the whole life becomes an ego-oriented life. You do not accept any conditioning, nothing. “I’ll do as I like, I’ll live as I like; I’m a free person.” Free doesn’t mean license, so I have a license to do what I like – I am a free person, I can do what I like with myself.” And then you start leading a life of Ego.
If you have this left-side problem, then the problems attack you in the sense that you feel depressed, you feel very unhappy, you feel as if the whole world is going to be collapsing on you, and you are extremely receded from life. You become recluses with this left side. But with the right-side, you are riding a very fast horse, we have to say in a way that the people who are, say, very dominating type – Hitler is the extreme of that, you can say. But now, Mr. Hitler, if you went and told him that, “You suffer from ego,” he would have killed you; he can’t bear that. And this kind of a thing, when it comes in you, this ego-orientation, is more dangerous, because you harm others and you are not aware of it. So both the things are harmful to you. You have to lead a life of a balance, in the centre.
This balance, if you achieve by using these two powers, like the brake and the accelerator within you, you develop that balance, and [when] that balance is achieved, then you lead a very simple, balanced life. But, as I said, if somebody comes and tells you, “You have to stand on your head,” you’ll go on standing on your head. If they say, “You must have so much of waistline, so much of this thing,” they will be jogging throughout. If anything you tell them, they will go to such an extreme end that either they’ll jump onto the right side or to the left side.
When you go to the left side, the experience can be like you might feel that you are seeing things from somewhere, or you might feel that you are jumping in your bed. The other day, I met a man who said that, in his dream, he saw somebody coming and piercing into his forehead, and since then he’s sort of immobilized. All sorts of experiences you can get if you go to the left-hand side.
Some of the drugs can take you to the left and some take you to the right. LSD takes you to the right, by which you start seeing things like you see colours and things – you go to the Supra-conscious area.
The Supra-conscious area is more dangerous, in a way, to the seekers than the other side, because – like you get Supra-conscious people who start seeing something written on the wall, they start getting things in their hand, they start prophesying and all sorts of things they do. All such people think they have become God. This is a very dangerous situation. They always think that because actually they are held by some busybodies who are making them evil. These are actually the busybodies.
We have one very good example of Dr Lak in England; he died, but a very ambitious man. And he could not complete his thesis, what he wanted to do about surgery. So his spirit entered into a soldier who was fighting in Vietnam, and this soldier – he didn’t enter into his own son – he told this man that, “You go and see my son in England and you start a curative centre of this late Mr. Lak”, I mean, he’s dead, “and I will help there; you better go and see my son.”
This fellow in that possessed state, went to the son and the son said, “Alright, how am I to believe that you are my father, that my father is haunting you?” He said, “I will tell you so many things that we did together secretly.” And he was amazed. He said, “Alright, let’s start the thing.” And they have got this kind of an institute where, if you are suffering from some disease or something, you have to write to that institute.
What they do, they will tell you, “At 5 o’clock, on such and such date,” – they are honest, I should say – “we’ll enter into your body and cure you.” They will cure one disease but, because of this extreme push this side, you are again pushed back on the other side, rebounded – and you may develop a horrible nervous system. You might become lunatic, you might become mad. People who have been his patients are worse patients now, and I have been treating them in India, many of them. So, such organizations exist and they start telling you about many things like, “Oh, if you go this side, this will happen.” I mean, it’s a very subtle behaviour of these horrible people, these busybodies, and they really try to spoil you.
Now, many of the gurus who come here – these so-called gurus – either work on this side or that side, or sometimes both sides. They use the spirits to mesmerize you, first of all. They will use any spirit to introduce in this centre, for example – an Antichrist will touch this one. And I know of somebody who is here – an absolute Antichrist; he touches this centre, and creates problems in you and produces within you a symptom just like blood cancer. There’s another one who wants to teach you how to fly – he gives you epilepsy, simple thing like epilepsy. There is another one who gives you cancer; there’s a third one who gives you a heart attack – they are experts on giving you diseases; all one better than the other and in the long run, you find all your money is lost, you are lost, there’s nothing left with you [and] you are a recluse. There’s somebody who has made his disciples so funny that they are even afraid of the vegetable, like a garlic – you show them the garlic, they’ll run away. If you show them a lemon, they’ll run away.
These people have worked on you because you are naïve. First of all, you have money. They have no interest in the poor people of India. They have no interest in looking after people who understand them. They have only interest in you who are naïve, who are simple people, who have money and, best of all, you are that category which is the seekers. You are born specially to seek your Self; you are a special category. Everybody’s not like that. In this place, New York, there may be many seekers, I agree. But this category is not with everyone. There are few human beings, relatively to its
population, who are really seekers, and these special categories have to become prophets and they have to make others prophets. It was prophesied by a great poet like William Blake. We should read all these things and understand that, even Sahaja Yoga, has been prophesied in the Bible. In all the Puranas, in all the books, it is prophesied that, in these modern times, this is going to happen: that thousands of people, who have been searching God in their previous lives, are going to receive their blessings and they are going to become that. Under these promises you start going to these people, but they cannot cure you because they are not authorized. They are not here to give you realization. They are here to make their money. They are parasites, they’re absolute parasites.
Say, now today as he said, my husband is well placed, maybe he might come from a rich family or whatever it is. I don’t have to depend on you or anyone. But, supposing I was like Christ, a carpenter’s daughter. So, I would have lived like that; it makes no difference whether you are rich or poor. To me, comfort has no meaning: I can sleep here, I can sleep anywhere. Yesterday, we went to Boston and it was a small little room of a student… we were six, seven people, we all slept together; no problem for us. In my house, I have bedrooms, I have everything – too much of a comfort – and it falls upon me; I don’t like it.
A person who is a holy person doesn’t seek others’ money and doesn’t live like a parasite. For example, you see yourself, if I tell you, “I give you money for your living,” will you accept, anyone of you? And these people are doing nothing for their living; they are living on your money, they are having Rolls Royces and this and that. A saint has no interest in these points.
Like, one of them who is nowadays here, who has now become a Yankee, they say, he told to English people, he wrote to them that, “If you want me to come there” – they’re all mad after him! They said they have got knowledge. What sort of a knowledge, one only knows. That, “If I am coming to England, you have to give me a Rolls Royce.” The poor boys, in England – as it is, people are not so rich. Young people don’t have so much money – and they starved themselves, ate potatoes, did this and that, and they created a fifty-ninth Rolls Royce – I mean, he has already fifty-eight – this fifty-ninth was created and this fellow very nicely came to receive the Rolls Royce.
You ask them, “What has he given you?”
“He has given us knowledge, we are in knowledge.”
They look just like possessed people they are moving and they are going down. Those people who come from that area have mostly blood cancer. And they just live as if they are not living. It’s such a horrible thing. What knowledge have they got? If you have knowledge, you should know what’s happening in another person, you should get collectively conscious, you should become, it’s actualization and it should happen to you. You should feel that, as you have shown here, that all these centres you can feel on your fingers. You should feel your own centres and you should feel the centres of others. You should become that. If you are satisfied with what you have done, and what wrongs you have done, we cannot cure you. You have to know that you have not found it and you have to get to it, in all honesty and sincerity. And throw away all that is nonsensical. Then only it works out and this has to happen to you, that you start feeling all these centres here.
Now see, you can see the colours that are given separately onto this. Now, for example, this is the left hand and left hand means the left side of this one. Now this one, if it is catching – if you feel heat, if you feel any catching, if you feel that there’s burning in this finger, in this thumb of left hand – this is all left side, is the psyche; means somebody has tried to disturb your psyche in an unauthorized way. Most of the gurus have this. All the left side can be caught up by them, but specially this one is the sign that you have
been to somebody who has been unauthorized, anyone. You can go to a spiritualist, is a most dangerous game to have a spiritualist.
I was surprised, somebody told me, “Mother, You are going to America. Now they have started witchcraft also. [UNCLEAR]. It’s magic.” They told me, “It’s much worse now. It was better ten years back; now it’s witchcraft. You’ll be facing people who have been doing witchcraft, they are doing all openly.” And they warned me that, “Maybe you may not be able to do anything there”, but I don’t think so; it’s much better than I expected and I’m very happy about it. So, this is what happens to you, is that, when you start doing something like that, you start showing here.
Now, this one is this side, left side of this very important centre. This one shows that you are guilty, you feel guilty; you are diffident. When the Spirit approaches this point, it makes you all the time feel guilty; you feel guilty for everything. What is there to feel guilty? I mean, you have not murdered anyone; real murderer will never feel guilty, but the one who has done nothing all the time starts saying, “Oh, I should not have said this, I should not have done this, I should not have gone there.” All these feelings come to you from Left Vishuddhi. It can be from the kind of training you have had.
For example, mostly I have seen Catholics because they have to go and confess. Even if they have done no sins, they have to go and confess because the priest must have his existence, somehow. This kind of a thing, if you have that, you have to go and confess some sort of a sin. You may even coin [some] of your own, because you don’t know what to talk to him if you have not committed any sins.
So all these things are settled down. You must know, all the sins and all the blasphemy, everything that you have done is going to be forgiven, has to be forgiven. If it is going to be en-masse realization, all these things have to be forgiven. It’s written; I was reading the other day Pilgrim’s Progress and he has said that all these things will be forgiven. Is promised. And what sin can you commit? What guilt can you have? If God is ocean of forgiveness and love, what can you do? He is going to cleanse you. He is going to bless you. He has to do. So what’s the use of feeling guilty all the time?
But that doesn’t mean you should feel arrogant on the other side. This side you’ll feel guilty and the right side, if you have a catch on the right side, that means you have been very much aggressive. Or you may be suffering from [UNCLEAR cold] or all these things; these are suggestive of physical side. The right side is for physical and mental side. All these things you can verify gradually. I would suggest that you should get your realization first; first thing first. Let’s open your eyes; let’s you have the light within yourself and see for yourself how it works, alright? Should we have that? And also we’ll
have some questions.
They’re already feeling it. You are feeling guilty now. Yes, that’s true, you are already feeling it. This is a very common disease in the West, to feel guilty, it’s a very common disease. We Indians never feel guilty, you know? They have other things but not this, thank God. They have many other problems, terrible ones, unbelievable…
As I was telling you, we don’t know how to advertise; we’ve done our level best but people don’t come to reality. You have one mesmerizer here. All of them stayed for this [UNCLEAR]. We tried everything, I don’t know how to reach to the seekers; I don’t know what they are seeking. They want all the circus – I don’t know what they want. Hmm. So, any questions?
Yesterday I told you about Christ, isn’t it? When He is awakened, I told you that. You were there for the lecture? When He’s awakened here, that the Ego and Superego are sucked in. That is what is promised, that He is the one who sucks Ego and Superego, but He’s to be awakened.
First thing that happens, when Kundalini rises, that you find there is no thought in your mind. There’s no thought, you have become blank, first thing. Then when it pierces through, you start feeling the cool breeze. It’s so simple, he can’t believe it. You don’t know, there was a gentleman who came to me, he’s an actor in London. He came in a program, and when he got it, he laughed and he couldn’t bear it. He said, “Mother, I will go out and laugh now, aloud.” He went around and laughed.
I said, “But why did you laugh so much?”
He said, “I did all kinds of acrobats. That’s why I was laughing. It’s so simple.” Imagine. People have written books after books and so much of nonsense they have done, I tell you. You can’t imagine. All trash.
Are you alright now, better? Now you go on saying, “I’m not guilty” in your heart. Put your right hand on your heart. Yes, now… again, say it thrice. alright? We’ll work it out, but you just say, “I’m not guilty.” You have put your own load here. Better now, see. Remove it.
Seeker: Ah, I’m not guilty. In my heart, I try and it hurts, but I feel a heat here.
Shri Mataji: It is little there, but it’s better now, gradually. How many years you have been feeling guilty?
Seeker: About a year.
Shri Mataji: It will work out.
Seeker: You say, the realization – is it a connection that you want us to achieve or to understand, between the Spiritual… in other words, the connection of the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: Of course, of course, it’s the breaking through; you become that. It’s the connection you have established. Like, every instrument has a connecting line, isn’t it? You have to connect it to the mains – you are just to be connected to the mains. That is fantastic. For example, you have a camera or say, you have a television or something like that. If you connect it to the mains, it starts showing its fantastic things. You are like that. Nothing so fantastic. You are fantastic, but you have no self-esteem. I don’t understand, human beings have no self-esteem. I mean, they are top of all the evolution, they are higher than all the animals. Now they are learning the behaviour from animals. We have nothing to learn from them. Have we to learn anything from them? God has placed us so much above.
Yes, my child?
Seeker: Why are we separated from the Spirit and are we at birth?
Shri Mataji: We are separated because of ignorance. We started becoming from amoebic stage to human stage, developing our awareness better and better and better. Like a reflector we are, so the reflector is improving gradually and the reflection of that spiritual life shows better and better till we reach a human stage. Now, here we come at this stage in the process, of the living process, and then we become connected, and that ignorance is finished. We are not separated as such, we are looked after. Like, there is darkness in this room, but you are not separated from light. Only you have to switch on. There is no punishment or anything done to you, no, because you have come from that. Your awareness has started improving.
Seeker: You keep talking about the living process. This can happen while you’re alive, it doesn’t happen when you die?
Shri Mataji: No, not. You have to live, you have to have a body; if you don’t have a body, this realization doesn’t take place. So some people talk of the dead gurus and all that, it’s not possible. You have to get it when you are living; you have to have the body. Body is the temple as you can say, that if there is no bulb, you cannot get light. There may be light but you have to have a bulb. It has to come in the form of a human being, not in the animals.
Seeker: You mentioned here that you are the link of Self realization. So are we, or the people who get Self-realization here, getting their Self-realization through you or…
Shri Mataji: No, no, no – your Self. Did they say I am the link? He should not have said that. It means that I am the one who enlightens, that’s all. I am, as one light… you can enlighten also. It should not have said that, it’s dangerous to say such a thing. because if it says, everybody’s ego comes up like that, “Oh, what she is, who is she?” You see everywhere, mostly I have seen in Europe, specially, they said, “Why you?” I said, “You do it; I’ll be very happy. I am a happily married woman. I have a very good husband, my children and grandchildren. I have to do it, day in and day out. If you can do it, nothing like it. I will retire.”
If you can do it, nothing like it. To travel like this, work it out, spend your own money, do it. It’s not [UNCLEAR] I must be something special, no doubt, but that you find out later on, not just now. I have to be something special to do it, but that you’ll find out later on. You should not have put it in there, because half of the Americans would not come if they say there is somebody who is a link, because they all think they are already realized souls, great people dropping from Heaven. This is also another kind of a selfesteem.
Seeker: Well, do you just have to want it or… how do you get it?
Shri Mataji: I think we’ll discover it later on, because I never got it; I had it, that’s the problem.
Yogi: No, she’s asking, does she just have to want it, herself?
Seeker: Does one have to want it or does one just all of a sudden… be it?
Shri Mataji: There is one thing that it cannot be forced. Your freedom is respected. Now you are free. If the egg wants to be bird or not, you don’t ask the egg; you don’t ask, because it’s the animal stage. But in human stage, you have to ask for it. If you do not ask, you do not get it. Nobody’s going to force on you. Neither the Divine is going to fall at your feet that you ask, no. On the contrary, you have to humble down to ask for it. It cannot go to arrogant people. You have to ask for it, in a way. If it works, thank your stars. If it doesn’t work, we’ll work it out later on, but you have to ask for it, no doubt. It’s such a great thing. Only that much you have to do, not pay for it but ask for it, in a humble way.
Seeker: Something disturbs me about the movement – not yours, I’m just saying that you mentioned before that there are so many seekers in the United States and [UNCLEAR elsewhere]. I find it very disturbing to find these people are seeking divinity or spirituality, and yet they themselves are not in a state of purification or do not live in a pure state. I don’t see how the two can reconcile each other. I mean, I think before you realize this realization, this connection…
Shri Mataji: You must go into a cleaning process, you mean?
Seeker: Yes, exactly, and really to have these desires that are vulgar and so forth, fall away from you… and yet they…
Shri Mataji: No, this was done before, and it’s a very slow process which was worked out, that you try to cleanse yourself, but it’s not possible unless and until there’s a realized guru who looks after you, each individual, and all that. Now, the Grace has decided that, first of all, let us start all the machinery, all the cars you can say, secondhand, third-hand, fifth-hand. Let us start; see how far they can go, then try to correct. Unless and until you get out of your car, also you do not know what’s wrong with it. So, unless and until you get your realization, really you cannot know.
For example now, I’m an old, ancient guru of olden times, take it like that. Now, you come to me. First of all, these gurus used to test you. They would break you, stand on your head, sit on your legs and do all kinds of things, because they would take only one person, one person among millions, and see that if they could work it out. And they would really work on him and make him do all those things.
The trouble is, in modern times, if you tell anybody to do something, they’ll do just the opposite. It’s a very difficult situation. Now think for a moment this point of view: I want you to have your realization because I can’t enjoy it myself. You have to have your realization. I can see that diamond in you; I want you to have it. So what would Mother do? If she has to do something, she’ll go round and say, “Alright, let’s have it.” First you have it and see if you like it or not.
Supposing I have cooked the food and you say, “No, I don’t want to have it.” What will I do? “Alright, taste a little bit, see how it is.” Once you jump into it, for these people have got it. Now he’s got realization, he knows the taste of it. Not only that, but without realization, you can’t judge yourself. If I judge you, I say now, supposing I say, “Warren, you have lots of ego.” When he came to me, he was ego like a balloon, like this, you won’t believe. But if I tell him that, he would have punched me immediately, isn’t it? Now you agree then? But this fellow, I didn’t say to him, “You have ego,” or anything. “Alright,” I said, “We give him realization,” then he came down on it. Then I put him into proper state, raised his Kundalini. Then he started seeing his ego. He said, “Oh, God, such an ego I have, Mother. Now what to do with it?” I said, “I’ll tell you how to reduce it.”
So, unless and until you have the eyes, you can’t see, and if you tell them, “Don’t do it,” he will do it. Best thing is to give the eyes first to you. You may not see it so clearly but you’ll start seeing it. Then you’ll start improving yourself. You’ll judge yourself. You better judge yourself. It’s much better than I judge you. Then you correct yourself because you can’t just bear it.
Yesterday there was a lady, she was suffering from liver – she has not come today – and she told me, “Mother, after realization I got a headache.” I said, “You have a liver? Otherwise you would not attend to it, but now you have got a headache, you’d better attend to it.” So I told her how to look after it; within two days, she’s alright, she’s cured. People become mad and they don’t know they are possessed, till they absolutely land up in the lunatic asylum.
To give them judgment power is very important. And how will you make out when he’s a real guru or not a real guru? Even logically you can, but otherwise, how will you make out? Very simple. You just seek [UNCLEAR the light]. So, you must get your discrimination power, but actually while getting it, you really become the master. That’s the simple thing. Now, he has been with me only for eighteen weeks or maybe eighteen months? Eighteen months only; now he is a master. He has established seven centres
in seven cities in Australia and he’s come to America, I mean, imported him for you people. But now, you’d better go and look after other people. What’s the question?
Seeker: You were talking about the Spirit being in the Heart chakra there, over on the left side. I’d like to know why it’s on the left instead of in the middle, because if the Spirit – it has to do with realization – why isn’t it in the middle in the central Kundalini, instead of on the other side like that, and why is it… and why in…the heart, yeah.
Shri Mataji: The heart. Heart is the main thing within us, that’s the last. Once heart stops, we don’t exist: sheer existence. That’s the most important organ that God has given us. Once the Spirit is angry, in any way strained, any way despaired, we just exist, and then we die. There’s nothing left. Heart is very important. That’s why He’s placed there, in human beings, but it comes out, comes out also. It can come out and see, go around and see. But the seat is there. When you will start growing into Sahaja Yoga, you will start seeing how this Spirit manifests and how it grows. It sits on the seat also.
Seeker: What does it look like?
Shri Mataji: It is now in the heart, but then it comes on the seat, at a point, that’s much different, that’s much later.
Seeker: I see.
Shri Mataji: Alright? So it has to be brought there; first a seat has to be created properly. Just now, heart is the one, [UNCLEAR it lies just there], it doesn’t… it is not according to our will, it is His will that is important. We have to please His whims also.
Seeker: Would You say conscience and soul is … resides in the heart area?
Shri Mataji: What is it?
Seeker: Conscience; in other words, people – their guilt feelings or their realization of what’s right and wrong – resides in the heart feeling, it comes from the heart area? This knowledge…?
Shri Mataji: It’s not that, it doesn’t come; it comes from the Left side, as I showed you. But heart area is the one where resides the Spirit, actually.
Seeker: So the soul would be…?
Shri Mataji: Soul… and the soul is a wider thing than Spirit is. Because when one dies, only the element, that is the Earth element, dies and the water element also starts oozing out. But whatever remains are the three elements, which are the three auras, plus the Spirit is the source. And the Kundalini also resides on that. After realization, you can see that, you can see so many Kundalinis floating – they have all seen it. You’ll see it, it’s fantastic. You are all fantastic people.
Seeker: That’s not the aura necessarily?
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no, no – auras are right side; Supra-conscious. But you actually see these Kundalinis floating around – I’ll show you.
Shri Mataji: So what do you say, now?
Seeker: How do we do this for ourselves? How do we do this for our Self?
Shri Mataji: Now, that’s the point; we are coming to that point now.
We should not have put ‘missing link’ on the poster]. Did you put ‘missing link’ or what?
Warren: No, no, no…
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no, no – don’t say all that.
Warren: Not the missing link.
Shri Mataji: A bit too much.
Warren: If it offends you, get your realization first…
Shri Mataji: Not offends, but it offends everyone because we should learn from our experiences; Christ said nothing except that He said, “I am the Son of God,” and they crucified Him. One has to be careful. If you say anything like that, people don’t like it. Better not say. Tell them I am just like you, blind – little of my eyes are open, then they’ll be happy. It was very wrong to say that. I didn’t see that, I would have told them. I am anxious not to say.
Seeker: It seems to imply that we’re getting your realization, the realization through you– that you are the link to the Eternal.
Shri Mataji: But why will you have objection to that?
Seeker: I beg your pardon?
Shri Mataji: Will you have objection if it is so?
Seeker: Well, it would be your realization that we are tasting, because you would be the link if…
Shri Mataji: But supposing I am the link. Supposing I am the link, supposing. Take a supposition – then what’s happening? What is the harm?
Seeker: What do you mean, “No harm”? But there’s a price for everything.
Shri Mataji: No, no – should not; because you must know that unconscious can’t talk to you. Somebody has to come and talk to you, somebody has to decode, somebody had to tell you. It’s not easy to become human being. You know it’s very difficult for the Divine to become this. Absolutely, it’s such a hazardous thing to become a human being, because they are so absurd, so stupid, and you don’t know what to do with them. It’s a very difficult task. I’m shocked sometimes – how can they do it? I mean, I just can’t understand.
Seeker: What’s that, that end part of it?
Warren: For the Divine to become a human being, she’s saying; for the Divine to become…
Shri Mataji: Is a very difficult thing. Divine to be Divine is the easiest thing, but to become a human being, to talk to them, to look after them… Supposing if I am Divine. If you insult me, you’ll be hurt and that I wouldn’t like because I am compassion. Like Christ said, “Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” For the Jews He said so, for the Jews. “For they do not know what they are doing,” because He was frightened. They are crucifying Him and He was frightened for the people because He was compassion. So, it’s a very difficult situation, very sensitive. But you should not have put that, I tell you, it was a mistake. I never saw that. It’s a good pointing out. I know it, people won’t like it. They won’t like it. I think our second one is a better one. Who did that?
Warren: It was done for the Australian tour, Mother.
Shri Mataji: Ah, Australians are very different from Americans. You should never have done for Americans – no, no, no, no. Australians are very different people, because they were punished once upon a time, their forefathers. So they do not have ego trips much, they do not have. They want a redeemer, they are a very different type of people. Americans think they are the redeemers of the whole world. They are responsible for everything.
This is a very different land; you should have never done that. Yes, it’s a very common thing. Americans really think they are going to redeem the whole world. And all the Antichrists are coming and settling down with them. All the Antichrists are, as a result, and it’s such a dangerous situation that I just pray that they would have more sense to understand these are Antichrists – throw them away!
Seeker: Could You explain what You mean by the manifestation; how do you see an Antichrist? What does he manifest as?
Shri Mataji: He’s a devil, he’s a Satan.
Seeker: You know why … I’m very, I mean, as a person it wouldn’t affect me, it wouldn’t bother me. If I see something as, what you call evil, I don’t consider things being evil per se but …
Shri Mataji: For this I would just say you get your realization, then you will know how much it bothers you, because you don’t see, that’s the thing. If you don’t see a snake, how will you know how it attacks you?
Seeker: Yeah, I know but I mean, as a person that doesn’t like whatever is unrealized? and stuff – you reject it. Why is it so effective as a … harmful adversary …
Shri Mataji: Because it kills all your chances of realization, first and foremost. I don’t mind if they are thugs, they take away money from you, make you poor, do what they like; I don’t mind all that. Let them be parasites, do anything; there are so many people like that, isn’t it? There are so many beggars, there are so many thieves and there are murderers, every sort. I don’t mind anything of that kind. But because they spoil your Kundalini, that’s why I have all the objection. You have to have your realization, that’s your right.
Seeker: And then do you shrug it off, I mean, does it affect you if you are … if you have…
Shri Mataji: No, no, not like that – that’s not true.
Warren: No, you shrug off – she’s asking do you shrug off your … all the negativity?
Seeker: Yeah, the negativity, that’s what I mean.
Shri Mataji: Who shrugs?
Warren: She’s asking does one, when they get their realization, shrug off the negativity?
Shri Mataji: After realization? Oh, they just run away.
Seeker: So I’m saying that, when you see this, you just … that’s why I … I mean people… even before they have realization …
Shri Mataji: That a person who is not a realized soul, according to me, is not yet really a person. That’s what I’m trying to tell you, that you are not yet fully that. You have to become that. Now the gentleman is getting very, very …
Shri Mataji: And that should be so because – now, let us not too much go into mental activity because what will happen, you may not get your realization because of mental activities and this centre goes out a little bit. So, let us stop at this point. Let’s have it now. You have to take out your shoes. I’m sorry, because that helps the Mother Earth to take away all our problems. We must get our realization at any cost; that’s the main thing. My only thing is that you must get your realization. What’s that?
Warren: Just a tape recorder.
Shri Mataji: He’s taping it? Could be dangerous. We don’t allow them to tape; it was the taping that started a lot of organizations this time.
Warren (to seeker): Would you mind if it …
Seeker: No, it’s turned off. OK.
Shri Mataji: Alright? If you want to have tapes, you can have from these people; they have got some tapes of my speeches, but normally we don’t allow people to tape. Because last time, this experience was so horrifying that this time we have decided not to allow people who are not Sahaja yogis to tape. But if you want to have tapes, you can have from these people.
Now, it’s all on the left hand, it’s working out, it’s alright. Now, let’s have your hands towards me and close your eyes. Put both the feet on the ground. Both the hands towards me and close your eyes; don’t open your eyes, because when the Kundalini rushes through this centre of Agnya, then there is dilation of the pupils and, if you keep your eyes open, it won’t come up. Close your eyes. This happening takes place and your attention is drawn inside.
Put your right hand on your heart. Close your eyes. Ask a question to me, “Mother, am I the Spirit?”
Seekers: Mother, am I the Spirit?
Warren: Three times.
Seekers: Mother, am I the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: Again.
Seekers: Mother, am I the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: Now say, “Mother, I am not guilty.”
(Seekers repeat three times)
Shri Mataji: Now, you have to ask for realization. Say, “Mother, please give me my realization.”
(Seekers repeat three times)
(Warren to Shri Mataji: Still a little bit left.)
Shri Mataji: Now please say, “Mother, I forgive everyone.” Got it? Good.
(Seekers repeat three times)
Shri Mataji: Now you have to say, “Mother, if I have neglected my Spirit, please forgive me.”
(Seekers repeat three times)
Shri Mataji: Alright? That’s it, it will work out. Keep your eyes shut. The Sahaja yogis can see now. Got it?
Warren: Just put your right hand … yes, he has Mother. Just put your right hand above your head.
Shri Mataji: You got it. You can feel it on your head if you have got it. All the Sahaja yogis can come and see.
Warren: Feel ok? It’s coming out of the top of your head? You feeling it there?
Shri Mataji: Those who have been to other gurus should say, “Mother, I am my own guru.”
Seeker: I can feel his, the same – he’s got it, he’s got it.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes you can feel. He’s got it, she knows.
Seeker: I don’t even have to feel it …
Warren: Are you feeling it on your hands?
Seeker: It’s coming all out of you.
Shri Mataji: (laughing) Yes, Yes, he’s got it, yes. Have you got it? You didn’t say anything. You were keeping quiet. You should have said it. You are catching on the Vishuddhi, and if you had said it, it would have opened up. Alright, we’ll work it out. You should get it. We can work it out.
Shri Mataji: Now are you feeling it? Slowly, slowly, it’s a very subtle thing. But in the second sitting it is better, isn’t it? It’s more clear. It’s very clear. Oh, it’s hot, alright. You’re alright now, are you?
Warren: It’s a pity they can’t turn the air conditioning – the air conditioning’s causing a lot of disturbance.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no – it’s alright. You believe it, it is there. yesterday, somebody who got it thought that the window was open, and then he went into the cellar to see, and still it was there. Are you alright now? Good! I’m very happy the second sitting you got it. It’s good. So changed, so changed. Look at this gentleman. Are you alright now? See, you have got it; second sitting, you have got it. Now, what about this gentleman – you got it? Did you feel, my child? No? Alright, I’ll work it out.
Warren: She’s feeling it in her left, but not in her right. She thinks too much.
Shri Mataji: Agnya was, too … that’s why I said we stop it there! That should work it out. Here, keep your eyes shut. Now, you have to forgive; go on forgiving – “I forgive”, say. How easy is that?
Seeker: I forgive
Shri Mataji: Again
(seeker repeats twice)
Shri Mataji: I forgive everyone.
(seeker repeats, Shri Mataji is working on her – Forgive, forgive, forgive.)
Shri Mataji: Ah, forgiving’s not there – now forgive.
(Shri Mataji and the yogis continue to work on all the seekers)