Morning Radio CJOR Interview with Rafe Mair

Vancouver (Canada)

1981-10-09 Vancouver Radio Interview Houston NITL HD, 36'
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Morning Radio CJOR Interview with Rafe Mair

Presenter: Well, I have a very interesting last hour for you, and I should tell you that if you hear strange noises coming over your radio, is because I am surrounded by private television set, or television recorder, that’s recording this interview, and we have all kinds of people here that we don’t normally have. Reminds me of my first day in the year. My listeners may remember when they had all the television cameras in here; then all the lights were out. I hope that doesn’t happen today.

But my, my guest now, for the next hour ? I am going to definitely invite your calls very, very soon ? is Her Holiness Mataji Nirmala Devi and She is leader of the Indian Kundalini. And I said before, religion, that is not correct. It is Yoga. And She is, as I told you in the, before of the last hour, married to a former assistant of Mahatma Gandhi and who is now a Senior United Nations Official and, of course, as I say, She is the leader of this particular Yoga.

First of all, before I get in and display all of my ignorance, Mataji, may I just welcome You to Vancouver, the city where you are. I wonder if You can speak right up to the microphone because it is not very sensitive and I’m going to have to test it to get it little louder for You. OK? There we are.

Now, first of all, I’ve read all of the material that You presented me, and it is fascinating. You have a very interesting background. Would You tell [to] my listeners just a little bit about where You came from and little bit of Your early life history and please tell me a little bit about Mahatma Gandhi?

Shri Mataji: All right. I was born in a Christian family and with a purpose. Now, after that, about say four years of age, My father found that it was an emergency in our country, that we should get our freedom, and he joined Mahatma Gandhi ? even My mother. All our family was involved with him. Now at the age of seven years I went to see Mahatma Gandhi and he liked Me very much. And I stayed with him. After that, every holiday I used to go and stay with him. He was a very wonderful personality. Apart from that, that is the kind of personality we needed in that time when there was an emergency to get our freedom back, and he was greater than many leaders because he could see that God has to play a role in getting our freedom. Not only the weapons, not only the guerilla warfare, but it is the Spirit that has to fight, and we have to take the help of God. So he took to non-violence, a method that would give him greater strength against the British who were well-equipped, and we had no way of fighting them with any kind of weapons. And the way he did it, it was so practical at that time. I mean, for people it looked as if it was very, very out-of-date thing to talk of non-violence against the British, but it was so practical that it proved beyond doubt that these things can work out very well, even if they sound impractical but work out very well at a time when you find that you cannot help it otherwise.

Presenter: But Mahatma Gandhi, of course, I read a great deal about him and one of the things I found interesting is that much of the Western world looks upon him as sort of an ascetic, somebody who was a very austere man, but he had by all accounts a very good and lively sense of humor and was a very lively sort of a personal or individual in addition to having a [of course brought] into a refined form, a non-violence as a, as a political weapon.

Shri Mataji: He was not that austere as people think him to be, but only he was austere to himself but not for others. He was very forgiving and a very kind person and very fond of children. He used to call Me Nepali because according to him My face was like a Nepali girl. And sometimes he used to talk to Me in such a manner as if I was his grandmother.

Presenter: Well, I, I gathered that, Mataji, the two things that my listeners would find interesting to know about You is that first of all, as You say, You did come from a Christian family and secondly, I think it’s fair to say, a very wealthy family.

Shri Mataji: Yes, I should say that My forefathers were sort of royal family type and then they lost all that and then My father and his brothers came up very well. They were doing very well. And, My father was a very enlightened man. Apart from the wealth part of it, he was very enlightened. He knew fourteen languages. He was a master of fourteen languages. And he translated Quran[-e`] Sharif into Hindi, and very learned man. And he was the first Indian to be elected to the Constituent Assembly and to the first assembly we had as the Central Assembly, then to the Parliament. My brother is also now a member of the Parliament. My mother was a graduate of Mathematics and she also did [the, her] Law in those days. So they were quite enlightened, educated. But the great thing about My father was that he was a scholar of Sanskrit. And he had a full knowledge of the philosophy of India, which none of the Christians were allowed to read or to understand. But as he had that background he understood the comprehensiveness of that and the whole thing, that the way that it can comprehend Christianity better, if you see it through that angle of meditation because to understand Christ he always said, you have to first of all become realized, you have to become the Spirit. Otherwise you cannot understand Christ. And, because he himself was a born-realized great soul he could see that. He was a very universal person.

Presenter: Well, Mataji is a world-wide traveler. As I know, You are having radio material. You’ll know that on commercial radio we must take a break every once in a while for some advertisements and we are at that time right now. We are going to be back with Mataji Nirmala Devi right after these messages.

Shri Mataji, let me get down to Kundalini, and if You assume that I know nothing about it really, You will make a very safe assumption [unclear], and perhaps it’s true for some of my listeners. I have a little trouble with the distinction between religion and yoga and perhaps You can explain to me what that is.

Shri Mataji: Yes. So I’ll talk to you about Kundalini first of all.

Presenter: OK.

Shri Mataji: And then it would be easier to make the difference between the two.

Presenter: OK.

Shri Mataji: Now, Kundalini, you may not have heard about it because the word Kundalini you might not have heard. But it is nothing but the Holy Ghost within you, the Holy Ghost about which every Christian has heard. Now, they do not know much about it. That’s a different point. But Holy Ghost is the power within us, which is the power of desire to be one with the Divine. And this power is actually the Primordial Power, which has created this Universe and has created us through our evolution and has brought us to this point where we are human beings, and now we have to become something more. So this power is not yet manifested; that’s why it is called as a sleeping power. And that is placed in our sacrum bone. Imagine: it is called sacrum in Greek language. That means Greek knew that it was a sacred bone. And in that sacred bone it is very nicely placed and when somebody who is authorized, not by any Church or by any Hindu temple or anything, but authorized as a being, as an awareness, as a, we can say a divine personality, can raise this Kundalini like the sprouting of a seed. It’s a, it’s a living process. It’s a living process. And the living process can spontaneously happen only if there is somebody who has that power to do it. Like the Mother Earth has a power to sprout a seed. In the same way, somebody must have that power to sprout it. And it just arises and awakens within you the different centers, ultimately coming out of your fontanel bone area, which is on top of your head, and actualizes your baptism. Actually it’s a happening which is a living happening and not a dead happening that we just say, “I baptize you.”

Presenter: All right. Now I understand that there is a relationship between all of the countries in the world.

Shri Mataji: Absolutely.

Presenter: And, and how, how does that work?

Shri Mataji: You see, we are all made as different centers materially. Like, we can say that Canada and America, this is a, these are the countries which we call as the Vishuddhi chakra, is the thing placed, which manifests the cervical plexus near the base of the neck. And that’s very important because in these countries only we feel that there are people who will take responsibility for spiritual ascent. That’s the, that’s the faith all the countries of the world have towards you from the unconscious.

Presenter: OK, now is this, this belief compatible with other religious beliefs? In other words, may I be a follower of Yours and still be a practicing Christian or a practicing Buddhist or a practicing Muslim?

Shri Mataji: You see, I’ve, I’ve come here to prove all of them, that they are one and they are real. That’s what My job is. So there’s no difference between any one of them. Like Christ has said, “Those who are not against Me, are with Me.” And those are the people who are with Him. I’m, I’m, I’m here to tell about that and to prove that they exist because you start feeling them. When you get this yoga ? this is the real yoga, the real union ? then you become collectively conscious. You become. Again I say, it’s actualization. That means you start feeling that on your fingertips. You start feeling the All-pervading Power on your fingertips, which surrounds you. And then you can monitor them and you can find out by raising the Kundalini. You can do it. Once you are enlightened you can do it also. It’s like one candle enlightening another one.

So you raise the Kundalini and you see that what I say it’s true or not. Because supposing I say that, at this point, where I have the red mark on My forehead, in the center here, is the, is the center of Christ, is the sign of the center of Christ, now you need not believe Me. But once you are realized you start raising the Kundalini. It will flow under your hand. It will start rising. You can see the pulsation rising. You can see the pulsation at the sacred bone with your naked eyes. And once you start rising it, supposing there’s an obstruction at that center which is placed in the center of the optic chiasma, when Christ is awakened there. That’s the point He said, that you have to be born again. And you have to be born again, not just to self-certify yourself that you are born again, but it’s a happening. When Christ is awakened, at that point, your ego and superego both are sucked in. And your karmas or your conditionings, all these are sucked in. It’s a happening. And then the Kundalini rises above that and gives you the realization. So the thing is that one has to know that when it’s an actualization the whole system is different.

Now the religion is for giving you a balance, a sustenance, sustenance that is human. Thus like blood has, we can say the gold has a sustenance; it is untarnishable. Human beings have those sustenances, which are described as Ten Commandments. There is no difference in any religion as religions. They are all just the same. That can be proved very easily. Only human beings have made this problem.

Presenter: OK, I think that’s probably a very appropriate time to take another station break, and I’m going to be back and talk much more to Her Holiness Mataji Nirmala Devi and I will take some time around the 11.35, Marco. We are taking your calls at 6859181. Right now, some messages.

Mataji, one thing I am sure confuses many of us and it’s, it’s semantic, I suppose. What is a religion? What is a sect? What is yoga? These sort of things. How would you describe Kundalini for us? As You said, it is not a religion. You said it’s a yoga. What is that? What does that mean? How can you describe it so Canadians in Vancouver would understand?

Shri Mataji: As I said, it’s a living force. As I said, it is placed within us. It’s a living force of evolution. How did we become human beings from amoeba? Why did we become human beings? We have become human beings because we have to become something more. Like we can say a divine instrument is created within us. Now this Divine has to be put to the mains. As you make any instrument it has to be put to the mains. So the whole instrument is ready. The human instrument was created by God, not by human beings. We cannot create human beings out of monkeys. We do not do, we do not do any living work. We cannot convert even one flower into a fruit. So this living work was done by the God’s power which is all-pervading, and that we have now today become human beings. Now we have to become that for which we were made human beings. So we have to find our absolute. We have to find our [reason], our purpose. And that’s what is Kundalini yoga is. It’s a living thing, it’s the breakthrough, it’s the one, is the revolutionary last step we can say, is what that happens.

Now what is religion? The religion is the sustenance within us, which is also a living force, which is within us. Actually these, all these great people, the great prophets who were born, were the people who were really incarnations. And they were like living flowers on a living tree of life. But people, they plucked all these flowers. They said, “This is mine. This is mine.” And these, all these flowers became dead. And now they are fighting with that ugliness. If you are deaden, then everything seems to be absolutely dead to Me, every religion, because whatever they do is nothing but dead things. Like, you see, supposing there’s a car. Car has not yet started. You start moving the wheel and [the steering, then steadying] wheel and everything. It doesn’t move. On the contrary you break it. Or, say, there’s a telephone. You, you have no connection with the main and you should telephone; the telephone goes out of order. It’s something like that. It’s all artificial; it’s all dead.

Presenter: OK, I think I understand. I hope I understand.

Shri Mataji: Thank you very much.

Presenter: One of the things that I was very interested and we have a sort of [dark, dart?] about a little bit because there is so much to talk about. One of the things that interested me was the healing ability that You have. Can You tell me about that? That’s something that You discovered rather early in Your life, as I understand and it, something that, that You can, that manifests itself now on a regular basis.

Shri Mataji: Yes, it, it works spontaneously as a by-product of the Kundalini awakening within you, because in us there are two systems which are called as sympathetic nervous system and parasympathetic nervous system. Now the sympathetic nervous system comes into play when there is an emergency within us. Supposing we run very fast; so by sympathetic the heartbeat goes up. But when the heartbeat comes down it comes through parasympathetic. So it’s a stored up energy, and the stored up energy comes to help us by which we come back to normal. It normalizes, it coordinates and supplies more energy and all that. So when Kundalini rises, it connects you to the vital forces, permanently.

Presenter: To, to the what? What forces?

Shri Mataji: To the sources, to the vital sources.

Presenter: I understand. I see.

Shri Mataji: To the vital sources. And by that, you start getting all the energy, all the time. So there’s no exhaustion. Like, if you are going by car ? I’ll give a very modern example ? and there is a petrol. There is sufficient petrol but it gets exhausted, gradually. Then you get worried and you mount up your tension also because you are worried that now what to do about the car. It won’t move. But supposing you have an arrangement by which you are permanently connected to the source of petrol, you won’t have any tension about it. It would be moving. And that’s what happens when Kundalini rises, She actually connects you to the mains. By that all your exhausted energy gets filled up again with vital force and automatically get cured. Actually, I don’t do anything. I just connect you to the mains; that’s all.

Presenter: Go at one place during the material that You so kindly provided me, I think, it’s said that you don’t get exhausted by work but by worry, by concerning.

Shri Mataji: Not at all. Because you are so much connected to your Spirit that the Spirit takes over and the, the Spirit is the one that gives you thoughtless awareness, is a state of bliss and peace and silence, in which you just start seeing ? you are not involved anymore ? you just see the drama; you become the witness.

Presenter: Oh, Mataji, You do not have a cult as we would call [actually]; we are having religion.

Shri Mataji: Oh, no, no, no. I’m anti-cult.

Presenter: You are anti-cult.

Shri Mataji: Of course. We cannot organize it. We can’t organize God. I’m anti-cult. You cannot.

Presenter: So in other words, You don’t have an organization, You’re not here raising money or anything [like that].

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, not at all. You can’t pay for it. No, no, no, no question.

Presenter: So do You finance Your trips Yourself?

Shri Mataji: Yes, I do. Most of them, I do it. Sometimes, sometimes, you see, some people who invite Me also pay sometimes for My trip. It’s all right. They pay for My trip but not for My work, or for My vibrations, or anything. They pay to the, to the, I should say to the airways, not to Me.

Presenter: I see. Now, so there’s no organization, that a person writes to and says, “I want to join. Please send me my membership.”

Shri Mataji: No, we have centers like that. We can say we have centers where you can write to them but you cannot pay and join. You have to become. And you have to grow. So it’s a very different thing altogether. And you cannot just say, “I paid so much money. I can become or you make me a member.” You cannot make anybody a member. Only thing it happens to you, you start growing and you start enjoying it and you start doing it yourself.

Presenter: Oh, how many, can you tell me how many adherents to this philosophy there are in the world? They, are they world-wide?

Shri Mataji: As I said, I have no organization. I have not written it down. I think they can be thousands. I, I must say they are growing on their own. And they contact us, and also when I go there they come to My meetings and all that. That’s all. But we don’t have any hold on them and there’s no cult business going on. It’s so, such a living thing, you know. You cannot organize living things.

Presenter: Well, I suppose You are saying too that this isn’t something that You invented, that this has always been here. You are just speaking at for people to listen.

Shri Mataji: Yes, it is the thing I would say that it’s a … Sahaja means born with you. You see, the whole system has worked out like this. But this yoga today has become a Maha yoga. I would say what I have discovered is a human realization of Mine by which I understood what was wrong with human beings, their permutations and combinations, and their complications, how they go wrong, how they go to extremes, how to bring them to the center. And then also I discovered how to overcome that hurdle for them. Then once I do, I do it, say for you I have done it, then you can do it for others. You, you also become empowered with it because you become your Spirit and you are empowered with the powers of the Spirit.

Presenter: All right. I’m gonna take another station break. I’m gonna ask you to give us a call if you are interested in talking to Mataji Nirmala Devi. 6859181. 6819181 is the number to call right after we take some break for some messages.

Hi, Mataji, just before we go to the phone lines, 6859181, there is just one or two things I, I’d like to ask You before we, You know, get into the public part of the program. How do You practice this particular ? I’m, I’m looking for a word ? this yoga? What, what do I do if I, if I follow what You are telling me? Do I meditate? How does it work?

Shri Mataji: As I told you that on our fingertips we have got the potential centers. So now, for example, now supposing I am an enlightened person. You just place your hands towards Me like this and the, these centers get the information, and the Kundalini rises by itself. That’s all. It’s just like exposing yourself, like the leaves expose themselves to the sun, for example; like that we can say. Or if you become the realized soul, then you can do the same to others. You can raise yourself the Kundalini from the back. It’s, it’s very simple and spontaneous. Has to be, everything vital it’s very simple, like our breathing. You see, we don’t go to books or anything. It just happens to us. In the same way, it’s very simple.

Presenter: All right. Now, two more things before we go to the lines. First of all, those who are listening to the program, that would like to hear more about this later on, where would they go? Where would they turn?

Shri Mataji: They, they have to put their hands to, towards the radio. It will work out.

Presenter: No, what I mean, Mataji, can they write some place? Can they, is there any place?

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, we have our addresses. They can write to Me here and they can write to us in New York or if you want in London. Then we have our places there. We have a center….

Presenter: Do You have, do You have some addresses which You could give me in one of the station breaks?

Shri Mataji: Yes, I can give it to you.

Presenter: One of the station breaks we’ll get to get an address so that people can, can contact, You know. What I would like to say, and right after that we’ll take some calls, that Mataji is conducting a Public Lecture at Kitsilano Secondary School. We used to call it a high school when I was a kid. What’s the matter with high school? Anyway, they now call it Kitsilano Secondary School, at 7. 30 p.m. October the 9th. That’s today, I think. Yes, that’s tonight, 7.30 tonight, October the 9th at 2550 West 10th Avenue. That’s Kitsilano High School, 7.30 tonight, 2550 West 10th Avenue.

Let’s go to the lines. Line one, go ahead please.

Person 1: All right. Good morning, Ray. I’d like to welcome Mataji Nirmala Devi to Vancouver first of all.

Shri Mataji: Thank you.

Person 1: And I’d like to hear few things about Kundalini. I’ve been studying and experiencing Kundalini awakening for five years and I want to assure Ray and the listeners out there for a figment of one’s imagination. Kundalini has been known in many cultures of the world, India, China, Japan, twenty-five hundred years ago in Mesopotamia and tenth century in Ireland. The Kundalini is symbolized in cultures as a serpent. Kundalini energy is universal energy and it is dormant, at the base of the spine in the subtle body.

Shri Mataji: Correct.

Person 1: And I had a, I had the experience of the Kundalini awakening, five years ago. I was attending the University of Victoria. I was a student there in the Fine Arts Faculty, and one day in a dream an Indian yogi or a master, a swami, an orange [clothing/clothed] came to me in this dream and touched me between the eyes, on the bridge of the nose, and I didn’t know what the heck is going on. Of course, you can imagine how surprised I was. So through a little bit of meditation and research in the libraries I found out, I…

Presenter: Just before you go on, were you into, you know, looking into this sort of thing at that time?

Person 1: No, not really.

Presenter: It just, it just come to a young University kid who is, you know, used to chasing girls and drinking beer all of the sudden vision. Is it?

Person 1: It’s exactly right, Ray, you got it. I was chasing girls…

Presenter: All right.

Person 1: I was meditating a little bit with a mantra, as, as so, so-called cosmic word, has a special vibration.

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no.

Presenter: Oh, so you were in a little bit.

Person 1: Well, just a bit, just for peace of mind.

Presenter: OK.

Person 1: I hadn’t pay for it. I hadn’t joined a club or anything. But I tell you, it was the most profound thing that ever happened to me and I’m thirty-five as old right now and I tell you I still haven’t got over it. And…

Presenter: May I ask you what you do now? I don’t want to, to do it to identify you but you are here and you got a job and so on?

Person 1: Yes, I work. I got a job and friends and you know…

Presenter: You’re a normal everyday guy. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t know what you were if I saw you.

Person 1: No, no, I, you know, I’m clean, shaved and you know…

Presenter: Excellent. That’s more than I can say….

Person 1: But I write, you know, Byron. But all I can say is that it is ancient wisdom and it is finally coming to the West and it’s not a figment or imagination. I tell you, the all levels of profession, psychiatry, doctors, medical people, every human being on earth must know, must have this knowledge that is within, that is our birthright.

Presenter: OK, you made some very, very good points and we have lot of calls waiting. So I’m gonna have to cut you up now, but I do want Mataji to comment upon your call. Thanks for calling.

Person 1: Thanks.

Presenter: Mataji.

Shri Mataji: For him, I think he should come and see Me in the program. Will be good idea, because I’ll tell him actually what it is. I mean, by reading it and by getting all these things from the subconscious could be little vague. But if he comes I’ll, I’ll tell him all about it.

Presenter: So he should be there tonight at 7.30 at Kitsilano Secondary School, and You can teach everything to him.

Shri Mataji: I’ll be very happy to meet him and he should tell Me about it.

Presenter: All right, we’re going to take another station break. 6859181 is the number to call. 6859181 right after these messages. To the lines, those of you who are interested in writing and learning more about Kundalini please make a note of these addresses: Sahaja Yoga Center, 44 Chelsham Road, Clapham London SW1 ? that’s like the postal code. And the other one is…

Shri Mataji: SW5.

Presenter: Well, who’s [unclear], whether SW is. Which one is it, four, five?

A person: Four.

Presenter: Four. SW4, as the one I said. OK. Now the next one, the other number is H.H. ? those are initials ? Mataji, 48 Brompton Square, London SW3. Now I will keep this note and if any of you did not get that address, give me a call on Monday during our free four-hour portion and I’ll give it to you that time. I’ll keep it with me. OK, let’s go back to the lines. Line two. Good morning.

Person 2: Yes, good morning. Your, your guest mentioned earlier that it is not the work that [worn] a person, not make them tired; it was the worry. I’d like to ask Her a question about healing. In healing, can You do so much healing that You also get exhausted?

Shri Mataji: No, not Me. I don’t get exhausted at all.

Person 2: When you get the Kundalini working, then…

Shri Mataji: No, I do not get exhausted Myself, at all. I enjoy it.

Person 2: Yeah, that’s fine because there are many healers that claim they can only go so far, You know, and then they get exhausted.

Shri Mataji: No, not at all. It is, it is a source. When you tap your source you don’t get exhausted, isn’t it?

Presenter: That’s like being the perpetually plugged into the servo station, into the petrol station is what I think is what the …

Person 2: It’s very nice. That’s all we all want. So we just need to get the Kundalini awakened and on the way up. Is that it?

Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s it how it works out.

Presenter: OK?

Person 2: Thank you very much.

Presenter: Thanks for your call. Line three, go ahead, please.

Person 3: Hello.

Presenter: Hello.

Person 3: Yes, the first question I’d like Madam who, whatever you call Her, to answer who gave Her the title as a Holy Woman or a Holy Guru?

Shri Mataji: Is the…

Person 3: And the second one is, if She lack the Christian religion, why does She even mention Christ in Her [proof], or style or religion, whatever She’s trying to bring to Canada?

Presenter: OK, you are very tough. I’ll get an answer to that. I think you are, I think you are… OK.

Person 3: And the third question is the final one. The sooner She leaves Canada the happier we’ll be, we’re going up….

Presenter: Oh, go out with you…. All right, let’s answer those first two questions. The last one is sort of typical some…

Shri Mataji: Some fanatic… ha, yes.

Presenter: Ill feel thinking, fatheads. OK, now let’s, let’s answer to the first two because I think she raises a kind of an interesting point even though she didn’t mean to. She raised it because she couldn’t help it. OK

Shri Mataji: Which is the first one which she said?

Presenter: Well, I know that the second one was…

Shri Mataji: About Christianity…

Presenter: Oh, yes, who, who gave you the title of holiness?

Shri Mataji: Yes. You see, actually, it is, it is not given to Me by any church or anything but is given to Me by public. They, they call Me by that name and even the President of India calls Me by that name. If she has any objections she can write to him there.

Presenter: Well, [then we’ll] not insist upon being called. That’s, that’s something the people just call You.

Shri Mataji: Yeah, yeah. Now, the second thing is that I think I have the more authority to talk about Christ than she has. Christ has already said, “You’ll be calling Me Christ, Christ. I won’t recognize you.” And I’m one of them, those who don’t recognize people who are fanatics. These are fanatics and they have done no good to Christ. They have crucified Him, many a times. They have to know that you have to become the Spirit. You have to become the Spirit. I’ve not left Christ. I have left the so-called Christianity which is not really giving us any answers. And tomorrow all your children are going to do it. Because in England, they should know that people are selling churches now. And the fanaticism one should understand from a person like Khomeini. And you are all becoming like that. So no use becoming fanatic. Better get to your Spirit.

Presenter: Are, are You saying that, Mataji, that You haven’t left the Christian ethic and You haven’t left Christ?

Shri Mataji: No, not at all.

Presenter: But You have left whatever organization men has built a parable.

Shri Mataji: And which church I should belong to? Tell Me. People asked Christ, Mahatma Gandhi once that, “Why don’t you become a Christian? You are so much adhering to Christ. Always you refer to Christ.” He said, “Which church should I join?” And, that’s the answer. You see….

Presenter: So, what, what You really are saying is that You walked away from man’s interpretation.

Shri Mataji: In the spirit of Christ. You have to be the Spirit of Christ and not the, just the buildings that these people have erected. These are all dead.

Presenter: Line four. Good morning.

Person 4: Good morning. Say, how do You call that guy, Calagini something?

Presenter: Kundalini.

Person 4: Kundalini. Can this Kundalini swallow Gasolini and pray on Mundalini?

Presenter: Oh, very funny. Line, line one go ahead please.

Shri Mataji: What is it?

Person 5: Hello.

Presenter: Hello.

Person 5: You called the lady a fathead. Are all us white people supposed to be fatheads?

Presenter: No, only people who are rude enough not to treat guests of this country as guests are to be treated in your home and in my home and particularly, madam, on my program, and if you don’t like it, then too bad.

Person 5: Oh, come on… [Fathead].

Presenter: Line two. Good morning. Are you there?

Person 6: Yes, I am. I’m also little concerned about you calling, call her a fathead, too. I think, here I was a little shocked. I think everybody has a right to voice an opinion or say what they think, and I think this is a little very…

Presenter: All right. Maybe the choice of words was wrong but we have to be polite to our guests, and people who are not polite to guests are in my words fatheads. If that’s a wrong word I am sorry.

Shri Mataji: This is very unmannered.

Person 6: You are doing the same thing…

Presenter: I have, I have, I have a guest here…

Shri Mataji: You must have manners.

Presenter: I have a guest here, and She is your guest as well.

Person 6: You are doing the same thing to your caller by calling her fathead.

Presenter: All right, I apologize for the term, fathead. I’ll think of a better one. Now have you a question to ask?

Person 6: No, not at all. I haven’t ….

Presenter: OK, thank you. Line three, go ahead please.

Person 7: My [unclear]…

Shri Mataji: If she doesn’t mind can call Me anything…

Presenter: OK.

Person 7: My husband was in the hospital and there was an Hindu seller there and a man who was very, very, a young boy in fact, he was all broken up as [he could but he came around practically]. But there was a Hindu seller coming there and he was rubbing his legs. And we were watching him and I don’t know what kind of religion that was.

Presenter: Do You know anything about that?

Shri Mataji: I’m not, I’m not preaching Hindu religion by any chance. I’ve talked of Christ so long. I’m not talking of any religion as such. It’s a mis… You are not trying to understand, you see. I thought Canadians had more sensitivity to understand it.

Person 7: He was really [feeling a burn] rubbing his legs and his hands.

Shri Mataji: Yeah… You see.

Presenter: OK, She doesn’t know the answer. Thanks for your call. Line four. Good morning.

Person 8: Yes, Ray, I agree with what you were saying to those ladies and I just like to welcome the Maharaji.

Shri Mataji: Thank you.

Person 8: And what She is saying is just exactly what I am looking for. I am right now going from one church to the other in town here and they are not giving me what I want.

Shri Mataji: It’s true.

Person 8: And She is just saying exactly what I am looking for. And I just really, really, I am almost ashamed that being a so-called white woman when these other women phone in.

Presenter: Well, I’m only going to say this once and we are going to put it to rest. So thank you for your call. As far as I am concerned, if I have people on this program that are holding up an argument for racism, or for one sect or another or one religion or another or for one political party, for another ,they may come here and they take their chances. They take their [lumps] like everybody else does. But when I have a guest on my program Who is coming up with an entirely different point of view…

Shri Mataji: It’s an universality I’m talking.

Presenter: So means that She’s trying to teach, try to give us an idea. Whether we agree whether are not, we must be polite, and I insist upon that on my show. And thank you for calling. I think you put it in prospect better than I did. I’m gonna take a break now. I’ll be right back after these messages.

All right, we are going back to the lines once again for those who are interested in finding out what is this all about. It’s Kitsilano High School, as Kitsilano Secondary School, 7.30, tonight, 2550 West 10th Avenue. Line, line five. Good morning.

Person 9: Yes, Mr. [Miller].

Presenter: Hi.

Person 9: That gentleman that had the awakening with yoga, he mentioned that the symbolization is a serpent. Now, this very clearly shows that is something devil and he mentioned a mantra which people who have been into yoga know what mantra is and it is devil worship.

Presenter (whispering to Shri Mataji): Devil worship.

Person 9: And people that would like the other side of the coin, to, you know, not get themselves into trouble should read the book, “Cult Explosion”, by a person by the name of Hunt…

Presenter: OK.

Shri Mataji: All right.

Person 9: And he mentions like incarnation and the evolution. Well, this is the theory that man can become God. So, You know, if You want for the teaching You can see what it is.

Presenter: So I hope in order to satisfy your own curiosity you will go to the meeting tonight…

Shri Mataji: She should come, ha….

Presenter: But I am going to ask Mataji to comment on your call. Thank you for your calling.

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. You see, the serpent is, it is called as serpent because it’s an energy, you see, because the energy moves in a wave. That’s why it’s called as serpent. But in Greece if you see this word Athena, “atha” means primordial. Athena has been shown also, it’s a symbol, you see, they have to express the energy and whenever they show the energy they have to show the waves. So there also you’ll find this Athena is carrying a serpent in her hand, which is a wave-like thing. And actually I have cured so many people who, who have been possessed. So this question of devil doesn’t arise.

Now the gentleman who has described his awakening is little far away from the reality. So he should not be taken as something, as something representing the one I am saying. That’s why I asked him to come.

Presenter: He’s not typical.

Shri Mataji: No, not at all. On the contrary he’s against it, as I told you. It’s a different thing that has happened to you. It’s correct that it is a possession what she says but she should come and see for herself that it is just the other side of it I am saying, that that’s what I told you that it’s a possession from the subconscious. I told you after he had called. But I didn’t want to disturb him. I wanted him to come and see Me. I would have told him what it is exactly like.

Presenter: OK. Line six. Good morning.

Person 10: Hi, Ray.

Presenter: Hi.

Person 10: I would like to, I just like to make a few comments and then I’d like to hear your guest comment on what I’ve said.

Presenter: OK, make it really fast ’cause I’m almost out of time.

Person 10: OK. I read, just read a book, “Kundalini and the Evolution Energy in Man” by Gopi Krishna. And he is from India.

Shri Mataji: That’s it.

Person 10: And currently he awakened that energy prematurely.

Shri Mataji: No, no, he doesn’t.

Person 10: Over expand it about eight years. He almost died about.

Shri Mataji: Yes, I’ll tell you.

Presenter: OK, I think, I think that Mataji knows what you are talking. It’s OK to comment just quickly.

Shri Mataji: Now I must tell… Now I will tell you that this Gopi Krishna is a person who has ruined many people like this. Is not, that’s not the way. Kundalini is your Holy Mother and She is the One who doesn’t give you any trouble whatsoever. I have, I have given realization to thousands of people. There was no problem. You must be authorized. You yourself have to have a holy life that you can do this job. Any Dick, Tom, Harry tries these tricks, then the devils come in. You see, that’s what it’s said; it’s a dead work you do.

Presenter: In other words, there are charlatans that can get involved in this sort of thing.

Shri Mataji: Yes, very much. They do it because they are not authorized. You have to be authorized by God at the very outset. I said that you have to be authorized by God and not by any other thing.

Presenter: OK. Thanks very much for your call. I’m sorry we can’t take more. The lines are just lit up. I don’t know how many were angry with me for calling that lady a fathead and how many wanted to talk to You, but I’ll hear from the fatheads next Monday, I am sure. But I want to thank You very much, Mataji… [Missing part].