TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC PROGRAM EAST-WEST CENTER, NEW YORK 1981-1020

Shri Mataji: All my apologies for the delay. But we got lost on the way. And your New York has lots of staircases without any [UNCLEAR]. I do not know how far he has been able to tell you about the Kundalini. By the way, looks like Sat-Chit-Anand and everything. Gregoire already has written a book called “The Advent” which is very knowledgeable also.

It is hard to believe for many people that God has made us. He has made us in His love, in His desire to give us the greatest that is possible. Human life. He is a father who loves you more than any father can love. I mean the source of that love, that you find in anyone is that God Almighty. And He has not created you just for a [UNCLEAR/whim]. Just to be unhappy or [UNCLEAR].

The whole universe was created to create you and you are the epitome of that. The whole being was created with such care, gentleness – you never even felt how you became human being from amoeba. He did not even let you know how beautifully it was done, how subtly. It is all within you. Only in our freedom, we went a little bit wrong. Does not matter. Even this, Christ has said, “All will be forgiven. Everyone will be forgiven”. And that is what it is.

We do not have to build up any guilt within ourselves. There is no need to quarrel about how to get it. Because He is more anxious about it than anybody else. He is the one who wants you to get your realisation. And you are a fantastic instrument for Him.

Now, we think in our freedom we have been able to produce lots of thinking, enterprises we should say – we have gone into it through our thinking. Which is practically nothing, I feel sometimes. Because you are not aware of that all-pervading power which is the source of all the powers that we have. Which thinks, which co-ordinates, which co-operates and works out everything that is going on. The whole Universe. Every atom pulsates, every human being is nourished by it.

This fruit now that you eat has come out of a flower. And this flower has come out of a tree. And this tree has come out of a seed. How do all these things happen? These living processes – every day we consume so many things like that. And we do not even think of how these things are happening. You see, these living things here – you pour some a little water and some greenery comes out of that water. We never even think about these things. We take it for granted. And this is all done by the all-pervading power of the love of God, which nourishes, which has made us a human being.

While in our thoughts we write big, big books, lots of dogmas are created. Out of religion, we have created so many problems. So many problems. Because it is artificial. It has nothing to with reality. It is all artificially created. And the whole dogmas – they write theses, they fight, they do this, they do that – what is the use? Just get to the Reality, the source, and find out what is it?

Why should we cheat ourselves any longer? Why should we be dishonest to ourselves and others? There is no use. And these fixations that we develop within ourselves – that this is the truth, this is the truth, this is the truth, better give it up. To find out the reality and there you are amazed, that this was all wrong. This you should have not done at all. It is such garbage, you have created. For nothing at all. It is to be thrown away.

But human beings do not understand and realise that this lifespan is very short. There is very little time left for us, as it is. And we have to really get to the crux. If you have any humanity in you, do not mislead other people. And do not mislead yourself. You have done it enough now. There is no time for you to suppress anyone and to oppress anyone, and to mislead. But get to it. Because it is there, it is there. Just waiting for you to manifest.

It is just a split of a second I will need, and you will need also, afterwards to give realisation. You do not have to worry, “I am of a certain race or creed”. I do not understand why there is anything like a race, or a creed or a caste. God never created. Never. He had to create different types of people. I mean, naturally, if you see everything is regimented, just like bolts and nut – how could we live as human beings? We had to have different types of faces, features, different types of dresses to look nice and beautiful and interesting.

That is how He created this world. He never created America and India and all these things. It is all created by you, human beings. And these are all problems created by you. Not by Him. Not by Him by any chance.

And then you can also get angry with Him by saying that why has He created this poverty? He does not understand money at all, how can He create poverty? A man who does not understand money at all cannot create poverty or riches or anything; this is your myth. It is your idea of possession and this and that. Everything is possessed by God, you cannot possess anything.

When you die, everything you leave here. Everything is your idea, you must possess this, possess that – you cannot even carry a particle of dust when you die. What thing we can carry is nothing else but this enlightened awareness. If you are a realised soul, you will be born again as a realised soul. And you will have the power to decide whether to be born or not, where to be born, what is to be done. You have a purpose. You have the purpose of life and you are sure, you are confident and you are born with it.

And this is what we have to look into ourselves and see for ourselves, what have we got? What have we achieved in life? It is with this understanding if you see – sometimes people feel dejected, depressed, unhappy. But I feel there is no need for that also. There is no need to be dejected, depressed or nervous. Because there is a very little film in between. A very little breakthrough that is needed.

You are just about to get it and if you are honest about it, and if you are thinking of it from that angle and you are not selfish, self-centred about it – it is the easiest thing to do. Because it is inside you; just a seed has to sprout. A seed is sprouted without any difficulty. It is so simple as Gregoire has told you; it is a fact. You can see for yourself. The pulsation of the Kundalini you can say, the rising of the Kundalini you can say, the breaking of it.

But the trouble, from my experience now of going through America, is that people are seeking, no doubt. But they are seeking either their ego or superego. Then it is not seeking at all. If you are seeking your ego like, “I believe in this and believe in this”, you are seeking your ego. What you believe, you believe just because of your ego. What is the concrete proof of “I believe in this”, what is the concrete proof of that?

What do you believe in? You believe in capitalism; see the effects of that. You believe in freedom; all right, see the effects of freedom. You believe in communism – see the effects of communism. You believe in fanaticism also, see the effects of fanaticism. Everything today we are seeking it starkly before us. When you people fight with Me, “we are Hindus, we are Christians”, look at the comedy. Everyone who says that is a Khomeini, in a way.

Everything is the same. It is just because you see your reflection, you call it a name. But it is you who is reflected there. When you start professing any religion, “I believe in that”, from where did you get the belief? What is your proof? Somebody says our proof is the Bible. I say, “How do you say Bible is your proof? Moreover, how do you say the Bible is authentic?”.

Let us take it. Any Hindu can say, “How are we to believe the Bible is authentic?”. Isn’t it? Any rational person will say that. And Hindus they will say, “How is it your Gita is everything authentic?”. Anybody can ask you questions. How can you follow anything saying this is the truth? If that was the truth, why are the Christians in such a mess? Why the Hindus are in another mess? Why the Muslims are in another mess?

So what is your authority? They will say ours is Christ. Somebody else will say ours is Rama. But where are they? What is their proof? I mean if you come to challenge it, you can challenge all of them. But when it happens then [UNCLEAR]. Then you can ask, “Is Bible the truth?”. And then you start seeing the Bible in a very different way. In a very different understanding.

Before realisation, you see the Bible in a very closed manner. Because it is all ego. “I believe”. It is “I”. It is actually the ego. “I”. But when you become the Spirit then you see it in a very different way. Then you will be amazed, that all of these scriptures are saying the same thing. Only these fighting cock have taken these truth flowers from the living tree and are saying, “This is mine, this is mine”. It is so ugly. The whole thing is so ugly. The beauty has become ugly.

I have to say that within you is love. It is such a sublime thing within us. Why should we not get to it? Why should we refuse? Only because we have committed somewhere, we have paid somewhere for a membership. It is such a great thing and all these things are so frivolous. They have no value. Nothing. But people start paying for it. They pay for it. I mean, they sell everything. I do not know how you can conceive such a stupid, foolish idea – that you can sell God’s love.

They have been selling that – for thousands of years. In India, you will find they were doing that in the temples. Then everybody followed them. Even today they are doing that everywhere. Everybody, they have to preach, then they must earn. If you have to preach, why should you earn from that? What are you preaching? What are you preaching? It is nothing but artificial. What is there to preach? You said, “Don’t do this and don’t do that”. What is the use of all this?

First of all, if you give them their Spirit, they know what to do. They judge themselves. If the awareness is enlightened, you see for yourself. You know what is wrong. You correct yourself. You judge yourself. The judgement starts with yourself. It is left for yourself to judge and understand and improve yourself. God has made you your own guru.

You do not need any guru, you do not need any preacher, you do not need any priest, you do not need any church. Like any temple, nothing. Temple is yourself. You do not need any organisation. Just that you start feeling yourself and becoming yourself when you understand what you are. Now, this understanding is not rational as Gregoire must have told you. It is not a rational understanding but an absolute understanding.

As all of us have seen, this colour is white. In the same way, you start feeling yourself. Everybody will say the same thing. If you put your hand out and say what is the matter with this gentleman, everybody will say the same thing. Everyone feels in the same way, in the fingers, in the hands, in the body; everyone will feel the same way. It is so simple. It is so simple that even a child can do that.

When children put their fingers in their palms, you should know they are actually showing your centres. There are so many children I have seen who are born realised in this great country of yours. I am sure Gregoire must have said about Vishuddhi chakra, you did not?

Gregoire: No Mother, I did not. I stopped at Heart.

Shri Mataji: You stopped at Heart. So you left Vishuddhi to Me. Vishuddhi is your America. America is the Vishuddhi chakra. Is the chakra where human beings have raised their heads. When they have raised their heads, they have taken responsibility. You know Americans are responsible for the whole world. At least they talk like that. I mean for the peace of the world, the fraternity of the world, they are responsible for everything.

And they want to take responsibility for it. They suffer for this. Create problems out of that. You know that. But unless and until you awaken the deity that is there, it is of no use. Saturn is the star that rules that chakra. Now you have been to Saturn also. They did not know there is a ring around Saturn, but we knew about it. Because it is the deity, Shri Krishna’s. The Primordial Being is the Virata. He is such a great thing, the whole collectivity exists in that centre. Is the centre of collectivity.

That is why you talk of collectivity. You have collected people from all over the whole. I cannot make out an American now. If somebody says, “I am an American”, I do not know what sort of features he will have, what sort of face he has, what language he may be speaking. We just cannot say, everybody is an American from all over the world. All over the world. Even from India, the people who have come – I mean, I used to think it was an old, traditional country.

But the children are speaking in your English, just like your style. They talk the same way, they behave the same way. I mean you cannot make out what is American, what Indian, it is all collective. The whole world is represented. Now, this is an important centre of sixteen sub-plexuses, which gives you the face, the eyes and ears, nose, throat and is a very important centre. But wherever you go you find, whatever you represent, you are just the opposite.

Something very surprising. Supposing you are representing truth, you are the most dishonest person. Otherwise, you cannot represent the truth. Like, we can say, India is the Kundalini. Maharashtra is where the Kundalini lies. Actually, the shape is like that like the sacrum. Two big mountains like on two sides and one big mountain like that. And it is all like that sacrum bone where the Kundalini rests. But there is no awakening. There is no awakening.

Europe is the liver and people there are drinking. I mean, imagine, it is drunk. The liver is drunk. England is the heart. And it is lethargic. It does not pulsate. Never believed. You know you have to go on poking them, again one ripple will come, then it will settle back. Then we come to America which is the throat and they are smoking. All the time.

At this time, I come here to see now, to work out this whole being with all its problems. That is Agyna. So you can imagine what must be the pride. And this is the problem not only they smoke ordinary tobacco and all that, but all kinds of things they smoke. I mean, I do not know, if they could burn this pillar then they would even like to do that. Wherever they could lay their hands on, they could burn that and use it like a smoke. I mean, something I just do not understand how they got to it.

Because even tobacco is a [UNCLEAR]. It is an insecticide. Not meant for humans. Even God never knew that human beings could be so stupid. It was an insecticide to be used for insects. It was used in India for thousands of years for killing the insects. Nobody knew about it. Till Muhammad Saheb’s time, nobody knew about it. Nobody knew and tobacco we have got for years together. He never knew that is why he never said that you do not smoke. So Muslims think that they must smoke otherwise they are no more be Muslims. And then he came back again as Nanaka and he saw everybody was smoking. That part was missing in those books so he said now you do not smoke.

Now in modern times if I have to say, I would say do not smoke at all or anything. Do not have any smoke anywhere near you. Because I do not know what to stop now, what to say. Which thing do you not smoke? I have seen people smoke anything in the name of smoking. So this is another thing which is anti-American, is to smoke. It is against your nationalistic Spirit. Anybody who smokes must know you are doing the greatest anti-American activity.

And the punishment for that is that you develop cancer. No doubt, the cancer is there. That is why it was prohibited by so many people who came at the time when people had just started smoking. Now, this cancer business has also not stopped people. They cannot think that they can stop it. The only thing that can stop all these things is your enlightenment.

Once you are enlightened your Spirit gives you so much joy, that you are no more bored. You are so much bored that you do not know what to do. I have seen people breaking their necks because they are bored stiff. They feel imprisoned within themselves. This imprisonment is finished. You become free like a bird.

Like in an egg one feels, you feel before realisation. And after your realisation, you are like a bird and you enjoy your life. You no more smoke. I do not say, “Don’t smoke”, just now. Because when I said that, fifty per cent of the people left in one of the meetings. I said, “No, no, I did not say that. Come back. Come back”. Because it is absolutely blasphemous to say, “Don’t drink”, so I do not say that either. You will just not do it, because you really get drunk with the joy of the Spirit, “Sat-Chit-Anand”.

So this is the Vishuddhi chakra which Gregoire has not touched and that is what you stand for. And one can give a big lecture only on Vishuddhi chakra; it is a very great thing. I think I spoke about it before also, in one of the congregations. I am sure you have a tape of that.

Now we come to a very important centre, that of Agyna chakra. This one is the centre of optic chiasma, this beautiful centre lies. Now those who are thugs and those who are just trying to invade it – they see an eye there and say that you must have a third eye and all those things. See, this third eye exists. But when you become the third eye you do not see it. Do we see our own eyes? A simple question. Do we see our own eyes? Unless and until we face the mirror, we do not see our own eyes. Because we see through it. We are our own eyes; we do not see. And if you see a third eye that means at least you are not a third eye. You are seeing, maybe yours, maybe somebody else’s.

If it is your own, you do not see. And this is what it is. That the third eye which resides in the Agyna chakra is in the optic chiasma. And this one is adorned by Jesus Christ, our Lord, who came on this earth to create a special passage in this area. You can see that these two things cross over like that. And this crossing is so much close together. And when the ego and superego develops, when you are independent. The two, ego and superego are developed when you try to do something on your own, that there is no space in between, it is all left.

And only a thing which is above, above this material and so-called ethereal and every sort of body, which can pass through had to be born on this earth. And that which can pass through is the all-pervading power. And that is why the embodiment of the Spirit, of the all-pervading power, which is also the reflection of God within us, had to be born in human form.

Another thing that Shri Krishna has said is, this Spirit does not die. Now spirit also means in the English language, a dead body. It also means alcohol. I do not know what else it means. But I mean the Atma. The Spirit that is you does not die.

To prove that, the Spirit of the Divine Power itself took birth on this earth as our Lord Jesus Christ. And His resurrection did that passing through that passage in the Primordial Being, creating us a passage to go. And he resides within it. He resides there.

When the Kundalini rises, she awakens that Spirit there. And once the Spirit is awakened, it sucks the ego and superego from both the sides and creates also a passage here. And the Kundalini passes through this limbic area, which is actually, as they say, is the domain of God. The Kingdom of God. And expands it and opens it through which the Kundalini passes through the fontanelle bone area and you start feeling the cool breeze of the Kundalini or you can say of the Spirit.

Because the Spirit has got its seat here but it resides there. When the Kundalini ignites the seat, you start feeling the cool breeze coming on your head. If you put it here you will not feel it. But if you put it little higher you will start feeling the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost.

Because it is the Spirit, or you can say the lamp or the wick which is being enlightened. That light comes out and you see the light here as the cool breeze. This is the first thing that happens to you. Then gradually the Kundalini starts opening more and more and you start improving on it and growing in it.

Before your connection, there is no technique. For example, until it has become a seat, nothing can be done. Anything that you do is artificial. But once the seed is sprouted, then it starts coming out, it starts growing and you know the technique how to make it. And the technique of that is to be known and is called the divine technique. Know and harness this power that is within you.

This thing should happen to so many of you. But there are very few who want it. As I said, the seeking is more in ego and something [UNCLEAR/stupid]. For example, somebody is jumping on the seat, people say, “Oh, something is happening to us. Our Kundalini is awakened”. It is out of their power to do it. They are not in that power. They are just jumping. They cannot control. They are not master of themselves.

But they think, “Our Kundalini has awakened”. Because here the superego, here somebody has possessed them and they like to think this is another awareness. It is not awareness. Actually, it is somebody else who is making them jump. Or if, somebody writing something poetically and all that, he thinks he has got some other awareness. That also is ego.

Some people start seeing things, like seeing some sort of auras, this, they think it is another awareness. It is also ego awareness. If it is projected more, you start seeing it. If it is through some medicine, like say drugs – if you start seeing something that cannot be God’s awareness. One should understand this. Or if you take say, some drugs by which you start feeling drowsy, sleepy and you feel absolutely depressed, that also cannot be God’s awareness.

So the things that are not under our power cannot be God’s awareness. Because when you get to God’s awareness you become your own mind.

The Kundalini awakening you cannot do. It happens by itself. The pulsation of the Kundalini and the rising of the Kundalini. So you differentiate between the two.

First of all when it is ego awareness, then what happens? You think you are doing it. For example, somebody is writing some books, or somebody is seeing something, then he thinks he is doing it. But he knows he is not a master. He knows in his heart of hearts he is not doing it. It is just doing it through his ego, artificially.

Another one is superego where you have no control over anything. Something like jumping, taking off your clothes, becoming frantic, shouting, screaming, that everybody gets. So the things that you can do or achieve is not what the Divine can achieve. For example, you cannot pulsate this bone like a heart. You cannot pass the pulsation on your back. You cannot feel the pulsation on your fontanelle bone area, and you cannot get cool breeze from your head. You cannot feel cool breeze all around.

Now, this is just the physical side of it. Absolutely gross physical side. But then, with this vibratory awareness, you can control your system. You can control all bodily problems. You can cure cancer and other diseases which are incurable. You can, with your hand, raise the Kundalini of others and give realisation. Now, this is not possible. This is not possible.

You can emotionally improve people; mad people can improve. Most of your physical, mental, emotional problems can be cured. Even spiritual problems can be cured. Like you have been to a wrong guru, or you have been a fanatic; all improve. It is not possible unless a tremendous transformation, a tremendous transformation must have taken place. Otherwise, you cannot become like that.

Then the transmutation is the problem, for which you have to put in a little bit effort and it works. A very little effort and you can throw away these fixations and all that. As I said, the butterfly when it comes out of the cocoon requires a little effort and willpower to know and assume it is a butterfly. And try to throw away all that. It is that simple is Self-realisation.

You Americans deserve much more. Much more, and many more. But still, there are so many who are lost. And I am sure next time when I come, we are able to do it in a big way. Because I have got some people who are in charge and who are very much worried as to what is happening to their youngsters. They are really surprised at how these horrible people have come enticed their young people and how they are being ruined.

And somehow I have been able to convince them and they are very happy that I have come in May. I wish I could stay here longer but I have some programs and I have to go to other places. So, in the beginning, you are a few people who have got realisation; you should get, all of you. Practise it and develop it, because we have to have a few people for functioning.

Supposing tomorrow, fifty thousand people come to Me, then who is going to look after them? So we need people who are experts, who can give realisation to others and who are ready. So in a way, it is nice that in My first trip, I did not have to manage many people. Though in Houston we have got lots of them and in Santa Cruz we have got lots of them. And everywhere we have quite a lot. And in New York also we have some of you.

So in the same ratio I feel, we will be having the flood coming down. Does not matter. We will have to go, I think, the first time I will be going to Los Angeles. That is the place where they want to do it. And then after that, I will be going to Houston and other places. And then after that, I will come down to New York in the end. And I am sure by that time you will really develop yourself and you will be masters of this art, and you will be experts.

Now the greatest problem of the Vishuddhi chakra, of this America, is that they are really gipsy-like. Because they have come from outside. This country is not theirs. So the temperament you see is gipsy-like. Because they have come from some other country. So every year they change their houses. I don’t know every six months they change their cars, every month they change their wife.

So it is very difficult today to get your hands on anyone like that. Now thing is, I must say you must come to some things strictly; that is the centre. Even if you change your houses does not matter. You will have a connection with the centre. Now we have got centres in every place we went to. You should find out from us where the centres are.

We must understand that the greatest defect that you get from this kind of shiftiness is that you always gather wrong people around. If you get water in one place, then you go on digging there and you get the well. But if you find little water there and then you go to another place. You might get a worm there, from there you go you will get something else. So wherever you go, find a little bit, go on digging deep.

Because such a temperament does not give you the depth, it gives you expanse but not the depth and the height. So it is important we should understand the character with which we are built. If you did not have this character you would have been very much more saved.

Because you started first say, with tobacco. Then tobacco, you have to shift from there. Even if you had only gone to tobacco, you would have had only one type of problem. But here what I find, everybody has every type of problem. So, there is no problem – you name it and it is here. You name it and it is here.

The reason I found out is they are very shifty. And they have tried out everything under the sun. Everything. And whatever they have tried has harmed them. It is a very serious thing. And I feel really sorry because you are saints born here. Is why all

You are saints. You have no self-esteem. You cannot waste yourself like this. You must have your self-esteem. You are saints. And this is the country specially chosen for you in modern times to be born because the collectivity resides here.

Now this ring that we have around Saturn is the Sudarshan chakra that we have in the hands of Shri Krishna. Is the most powerful weapon in the whole world. It has the “samhar shakti” means the power to kill anyone. But you are not aware.

If Shri Krishna’s deity is awakened here, means if you get the awakened people here if you get realised – no country can come, no country can touch this country. You cannot imagine what powers you have. Because if you do not use it, it starts working against you. And that is why all your shores are being corrupted. That is why you see the shores are just getting destroyed. And if you go ahead with this kind of a thing, then there could be terrible things that could happen to this great country.

So one has to be aware. This work of collectivity has to grow very fast. And everybody who had defied it and denied it will be having problems. So one has to understand that to go deep down into it, one has to come out of that shifty nature. And become responsible. Because responsibility is the thing that is denoted by this [UNCLEAR/petal/chakra]. And there are sixteen sub-plexuses, so how important is this centre you can understand and how one has to work it out.

Only you have to awaken yourselves, first to your responsibility as Americans in spirituality. You have a tremendous responsibility. While you have this responsibility, you gave away to thuggery and gave away to all kinds of nonsense that have settled down. Because you were not aware of it. If you were aware of it, you would have thought of it, you would have chosen it properly and you would have done it.

I came here nine years back and I told people by name, the people who are going to ruin this country. By name. And you are the ones who invited them, gave them money. The other day I met a girl, she was crying. She said – she took the name of one of the gurus, whom she brought herself. And she said, “I am guilty of that Mother, I am guilty”. And he used that woman, he did all kinds of things to her. And she is crying, “Those who went to him now don’t listen to me”. This is what happens.

So you have a special responsibility; you owe it to the whole world. No use being responsible for political and economic things, be responsible for spiritual things. Because that once you get, you get everything else.

Krishna had said, “Yoga-kshema-vahamyam”. When you get your union with God, when you become one with Him, he looks after your well-being. Not before that. He did not say that, “Kshema-yoga”. He says, “Yoga-kshema”.

Well-being is kshema. Complete well-being. Physical, mental, emotional, material, every sort of well-being comes to you. Then you really become a capitalist and then you become a communist because you have to share your capital with others; you cannot enjoy it.

Like Me. I have been travelling and travelling, day in and day out. Doing this beautiful job. That has been so much encouraging, so much joyous to so many people. Blossoming into flowers. And also to see so many buds have gone to the wasteland. It is very, very sad. With all these mixed feelings now going back to London. And I may not be able to meet you anymore but I leave it to you to take it up as a responsibility.

And don’t be frivolous. You have to keep your connection to the centre we have. Armand has very sweetly offered his place. We send you all My tapes and everything that is possible and all the books, everything. All the help.

Some people from London will also come here. We have got here Steve and his wife. Steve, not yet his wife, we can say his fiancée. All of them are here. We have got Christine from London who came down here to settle down. She is here and she is going to look after. And there are so many others who are going to help you.

So we have also got Doctor Modi who got his realisation. There are people from upstate New York who have come down for this program. In the same way, you should feel responsible. We need not import now, anymore Sahaja Yogis. On the contrary, let us create more Sahaja Yogis here so we can export them to various countries. And when this export will start from America, real people, then only the spirituality of America will change.

Because you people give everything to them. For example, jeans and all that, have gone from this country. Everything goes from this country. All nonsensical. Now let us do something sensible also. Send some sense to them, send some wisdom to them. We have got great people like Abraham Lincoln and all these sensible people in this country, such saintly people. Let us send some sense to them, some living sense, some living wisdom of God.

May God Bless You. May God Bless You. [Applause].

Now if you have any questions, please ask Me.

Sahaja Yogini: I would like to ask.

Shri Mataji: Yes? Yes, Barbara?

Barbara: I would like to ask if the arrival of the [UNCLEAR] is proof of the whole evolution of all things and our realisation is the microcosm. If realisation is the proof of evolution and certain beings reach that point where they are realised, what happens after death? Do they remain realised, do they help other beings come forth? How does that work? After realised beings die how do they help the world after that?

Shri Mataji: Now your question is just suitable to the futuristic society. They always live in the future. While an Indian will come and ask Me, “What was I in my last birth?”. What I am saying – we have to live in the present. All right?

I can give you a big lecture on after death. But just now we have to live and not to die. All right? So just now do not think what happens after death. You just don’t worry. That is not so important. Just now it is difficult to live; very easy to die. You want to see? We can jump into the sea and find out. All right?

I would say don’t be futuristic. Be in the present. See what happens in the present when you get realisation. All right? I do not want to put your attention to futuristic ideas. We are very futuristic. I mean, the Americans are terribly futuristic. So much so that I do not know how they live, Myself.

The other day somebody told Me that a gentleman has taken up a new job and he is doing very well there. I said, “What is he doing?”. He said, “In charge of funerals”. I said, “Funeral?”. He said, “You can plan out your flowers. You can plan out your dress”. I said, “But who sees that? I mean, what is it for?”. He said, “You see, it can be planned out. We plan it. You see, we plan out everything, we select everything”. And when they die in an air crash what happens?

So these plans never work out. You see, actually, God disposes of all your plans. Always. So never plan out everything. The thing is, you should live in the present. All right?

Like, now we have to go somewhere. Even our Sahaja Yogis do sometimes. They will sit down for one hour – “you go there and you go there”. And “you meet me there and you meet me there”. It will go on like that until they get puzzled. And ultimately where do we meet? They come along. I said, “You got a ticket, he has got a ticket, you go there”. “And then?”. I said, “You all have got vibrations. You will meet”. And they all meet. But if they decide, I will go there and you go there, so one will be standing here and one will be down there where they will never meet.

After realisation, you do not have to think of the future. The future takes its own course as it wants. And the past is finished. All right? The future is so beautiful that you are amazed by how you meet with it. Everything has meaning.

Now, today I was late. All right? Why was I late? First of all, I had to go that way. I had to go vibrating that way. I was not well. Then I had to come here late because the time has to come for you to get your realisation also.

Everything is planned out so well, it works out so well. Those who were useless people are gone away. They would have troubled Me here, asking funny questions so I was happy. They are just gone away. Those who were serious people, those who were deep are staying. So it happens. It also helps and lot. And also Gregoire had a chance to speak. He is also trained in talking and speaking to you and you came to know him. And he was not here last time when we were in New York. So many good things have happened.

And I was present for what I had to say. I made you laugh, quite a lot. So don’t be futuristic. This is not necessary to say will happen to you or when you will die. All right? Yes, please?

Seeker: What is Your opinion about – Kundalini can be raised by pranayama or mudra or all these other techniques?

Shri Mataji: I must say that [UNCLEAR/can tell] it is all garbage. You see, everybody can talk about God, talk about Kundalini. Because who is going to challenge them? But what happens to them? Today it was only, the day before yesterday. No, no yesterday night isn’t it? Yesterday night we were at Santa Cruz. Was it? The day before yesterday, we were at Santa Cruz.

And a man who was looking like a bird chicken, absolutely like a bird [UNCLEAR/come to eat chicken], came to Me and said, “My Kundalini is up”. I said, “Really?”. I was worried about him, how many diseases this fellow must be having. Then he [UNCLEAR] act like this. Absolutely like a bird, chicken. All over the body, black, red patches like that, horrible body – if children see him they will cry for ages.

He came to Me, he sat like this. Went on, he did like that. I said, “No, no, no, no what are you doing?”. He said, “I have got all these mudras by which I am doing”. I said, “You better go and sit in the water for ten hours every day”. He is [UNCLEAR] and he has got cancer; I did not know how to tell him that. It is not only garbage but eating the garbage.

That is My opinion as far as I am concerned. But if you want to see the results, we can call the gentleman.

Seeker: Mataji, I have been having – I feel really wonderful by the way. I have only two questions, I may be the first one. I still have these doubts and I find myself saying these names. I don’t want to say them. I do not want to have these doubts and the feelings from saying these names are negative things. And I do what Christine says with it, you know, the beating with the shoe and I do that to protect me. Because I do not want to have them. [UNCLEAR/Mestrome], I don’t want to say them here. It is not me.

Shri Mataji: All right. It does not matter. It happens with everyone. Now how many days you have had these. For days together. Now you have met Me, how many days back? You got your realisation. You are only one month old. Not even one month. How many days old are you?

Seeker: I am thirty-seven. Days? Many, many.

Shri Mataji: No, no, not that. When you were reborn.

Seeker: Oh, less than, I don’t know.

Shri Mataji: You are still a baby. All right? So you require a little more time, that’s what. Have some patience with yourself. You see, patience is required because of the way we have spoilt ourselves. You have to have patience including with yourself. But you are much better. You are much better since I last you. If you ask Me, I would say you are at least seventy per cent better.

Seeker: I feel much better.

Sahaja Yogi: Sorry may I? If you ask a question now, please ask questions which are in the interest of the group. If you have any personal questions we can take it up with you later on. Okay?

Seeker: I have just another one. I see since I was [UNCLEAR] a friend of mine came. Because I wanted to share how good this is. But I do not know how to talk about it. Because people say, you know, I say I have had such a wonderful thing. They get, they say you are crazy or something. I wanted to tell them the right way. I even raised someone’s Kundalini, myself, in a park by a stream. And she was feeling it, it was great. Then she went back, she was seeing a clairvoyant – she got confused.

Shri Mataji: That is very common. They call Me also crazy. So what does it matter? Keep it, as long as you know you are not, you should not worry. Gradually they will understand. See, they think I am also crazy when I say I can raise your Kundalini. They think I must stand on My head to raise your Kundalini.

What to do? You cannot do according to what they want. But it is all right. Does not matter. As long as you are sure of yourself, go ahead and build up yourself and become that. All right? You just do not take certificates from others anymore. Now you take it from your own vibrations. You have to take a stand when you are standing alright.

Seeker: My observation is, is it correct that breathing becomes very much regular, everything improves?

Shri Mataji: Very much so. You see, breathing itself is a prana shakti of right-hand side as Gregoire must have told you. You get balanced. Everything gets balanced. Today only there was a phone call from someone whose father was a governor of Kashmir. I could not contact him, otherwise, he would have come here. This boy, he is working here now. And his father had asthma for twenty-five years.

They were, before coming to London, we knew them very well, you see. My husband was just like him. I should say he was the senior, one of the senior persons, very elderly and we were young when we were married. Very kind to us and he said, “You never come to Kashmir. So before going to London, you come and see us”. And we went there. I never knew he had asthma actually.

And he came to see Me, walking. He came to the guest house and I was very surprised why the Governor was walking. He said, “ I have not come to see Mrs Srivastava, I have come to see a saint”. That is why he was without shoes, you know. And he sat down there. And he said, “Today I have come to see you for asking one thing that I have got asthma for twenty-five years”. And I cured it. And it was cured just by raising his Kundalini.

But the thing with Indian human beings is this, you see, from childhood they are screwed up (Mother is saying in a good way, good conditionings). From childhood, they are screwed up. That you must keep your attention in the centre. Everybody will ask, “Where is your attention?” to the children. “Where is your attention?”.

See the freedom is not a licence in India. Still with our social life, as it is. So you are all the time saying, where is your attention? So even people of that age group, they get their realisation just like that. They get their cancer cured just like that. Because the attention has not gone too much into some sort of a thing.

Here, it is a license. Because there is nobody to check you that your attention should be in the centre. So “chitta nirodha”. It is not the control of the attention. It is the alertness of the attention. Where is it going? It works out there very fast, very. Thousands of people get realisation there, in the villages. Of course, the city is westernised, they are getting to your plastics and nylons. They are developing. Till they get rid of the plastics and nylons, they will have to come through the whole circus and they will come to it.

But by that time your attention gets harmed because you have gone into that, gone into that. But still the whole thing, I must say despite everything, in such a short time you feel it. We cured a multiple sclerosis in two sittings only in general. Multiple sclerosis, can you imagine?

I mean, they are all Americans and they lived the same way. They have made the same mistakes that any common American would do. But [UNCLEAR].

Seeker: Your own enlightenment, did it come on suddenly or was it a gradual process?

Shri Mataji: Me?

Seeker: Your own enlightenment, was it a sudden realisation of the truth or was it a gradual process?

Shri Mataji: See, I am a big mystery, all right? And I think it is better you find out about it. Because I have to become a little tactful. If you tell about yourself, you are in for trouble. So it is better if you find out about Me, through your vibratory awareness. It will be a better idea. But as far as I am concerned, I think I was never enlightened. I knew all this, for ages. It is for you to find out about Me. I am like a bubble. It is a big camouflage, which you will discover very soon about Me.

But it is better that you discover Me, instead of Me telling you I am this and this. I do not want to claim anything whatsoever.

But I must be something, isn’t it?

Any other question, please? How are you?

Seeker: Good.

Shri Mataji: Good. I can see that. Are you all right?

Seeker: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Good, good. How are you, Christine?

Oh, the gentleman from Boston, he came all the way. He came up to Santa Cruz. And he improved and he is going back. He told Me that he would like to meet you there. But I told him he would be there because he would be coming to see Me, he would be there with Me. So he said, “All right then. I will go on”.

He is going to work it out because he really follows Me and he is very good.

Christine: Oh, good.

Shri Mataji: He is very good.

Christine: Oh, great.

Shri Mataji: I have some nice photographs for you. Yes, is there any question.

Seeker: The effects on the nervous system, when the Kundalini is raised, would be?

Shri Mataji: Enlightenment. It is so tremendous, I tell you. See, the nerves are just like a wick inside. And when it is enlightened, how you find this is giving light. This is one. But not – now it is enlightened light. You will see that if a person who has got some sort of a problem, even with the movement of My fingers it will start moving. Even if it is far away. Because it reacts. It reacts to vibration.

So, when you are realised, your nerves can emit it. You can feel it. Your nerves can feel it. So your nerves are enlightened. They can feel it. Not only that, if you think of something, but your nerves can also emit that thought, that enlightened thought, which is effective.

It is a tremendous thing. I mean to explain it is difficult. But the whole thing happens in such a big way, that you see for yourself.

Seeker: The question was when the Kundalini is raised and the nerve system is affected, the parasympathetic system which you spoke of would begin functioning more perfectly.

Shri Mataji: Absolutely.

Seeker: Would then hormones be secreted that would create a balance?

Shri Mataji: Perfectly, in a balance. You see what happens is all the imbalances get [UNCLEAR]. First of all, in balance. And you start looking much younger, feeling much younger. I mean, I am now about to be sixty years of age. And how much travelling I am doing. Anybody who thinks they have to get this lady travelling like this. But I do not feel tired.

Seeker: This, I found out to be enlightened and I have only been enlightened a few days. That even though I don’t sleep, I can draw on the energy of the Kundalini.

Shri Mataji: I know, and it comes from the top also. The grace, the grace comes and fills you. It is very energy-giving. And not only physical, even moral kind.

You see, you can stand up to any kind of thing. You see, if you see Christ’s life, He stood up against things like –Mary Magdalene, you see she was a prostitute. And a prostitute has nothing to do with Christ. I mean, He is a saint. And both the things are absolutely [UNCLEAR]. But when people started stoning, He stood up and He said, “All right, now you stone – anyone of you who has not sinned”. Now, only a person of that character, that enlightenment and that strength can say this.

You develop that moral strength. See, you enjoy your virtues. You appreciate others’ virtues. And you stand up to anything for your virtues. Absolutely. It is a tremendous thing, I tell you. For your righteousness, you can go through anything. Anything. You do not mind as long as your righteousness is intact. It is a beautiful thing that happens.

I mean, I would say about Gregoire’s father. In the beginning, he was a little, not, very apprehensive about Sahaja Yoga. And some lady told Me who was a realised soul and who was working with him before and all that. And she suddenly met him. Now she is married to a very big doctor or something. And they met in a restaurant and they were talking to each other. And this lady was just keeping quiet. And the doctor started saying, “Oh, I don’t want my children to go to anyone. These Indians are, they are having cults and this and that. One should not allow the children to go to that”. He was talking you see, without knowing about it.

You see, she just kept quiet. So Gregoire’s father said, “No sir, I would say there I disagree. I am not a Sahaja Yogi and I do not know much about it. But I would say let the children go there. If I was there, I would be a better man. I have committed so many mistakes because I was not there. By going to Sahaja Yoga my children have become extremely important. Extremely honest. Extremely straightforward. I am surprised.

And they love each other. There is no quarrelling amongst themselves, they respect elders and such a beautiful thing has been done. And they have become so effective. They have got good jobs and they are doing so well and so responsible and well-respected. I mean, I never knew that. I was a Catholic all my life and I did all kinds of wrong things. I used to go to church. I used to confess but I was just there. And the same thing can be said about all religions. I mean, he was a Catholic but anybody would be a Hindu – there was nothing in me. I was carrying on – women, drinking”.

That is very true. But after Sahaja Yoga, you become very straightforward. You lead such a sweet life. And the married life and children, everything is so beautifully managed. And the way he says, “My children could enjoy their wives, enjoy their family life – I could not enjoy. I was disintegrated”.

That is true. He could see, though he is not a Sahaja Yogi. My husband he himself always says that, “This is the only way we can [UNCLEAR/see] the whole world”. Always he says that. Though he is not yet realised and you are realised.

Seeker: You can see the logic, Mother. Some people are not realised. But they can see the logic of Sahaja Yoga. But their ego stands in the way.

Shri Mataji: Ego. And also, they think, let others do it then we will do it. In a way, it is good my husband and my daughters are not realised. Because then people would say it is an enterprise. He respects it, he gives me money to travel, and he has really been very generous, he is very kind to Me. And he understands the value.

I am happy he is not a Sahaja Yogi in a way, because there is no connection between him and Me as far as this Yoga is concerned. So that nobody can say there is a family affair going on. It is better. From a [UNCLEAR/station] point of view also it is better.

Sahaja Yoga stands on its own legs. Not because I am somebody’s wife or somebody’s mother or somebody’s sister. No. And then they themselves [UNCLEAR/may follow].

My own brother, he may become the Chief Minister of Maharashtra. He is a very influential man, very influential. So somebody asked him that, “What do you think about your spirituality?”. He said, “You see, as far as I am concerned, She is our sister. And She is a very high soul from Her childhood. I know that She is doing the greatest work that anybody can do. But how many people are going to take to Her, I do not know. The more people take it, the better”.

Everything he said. But so far, they themselves are not there, so much. I mean, he got his realisation, all right. But not so much dedicated as you people are. You see, they will be – it is better they are out. Because these family relations can create problems also. We can start manipulating some of them. It is better they are (out), I am very happy. No, they respect Me and they know that this is the way to do it.

Seeker: Should we have the experience?

Shri Mataji: Now, should we? Good.

Sahaja Yogi: Please take out your shoes.

Shri Mataji (to someone): I was thinking, day after tomorrow morning. I could come to your place, morning.

Sahaja Yogi: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Will that be all right for you all?

Sahaja Yogi: Who is here for the first time? Could you come up here?

Shri Mataji: Day after tomorrow morning you won’t be free?

Sahaja Yogi: Thursday.

Shri Mataji: Because I am going in the evening time and tomorrow there are some people. Or, if you – I have to go somewhere at six o clock tomorrow evening. I mean, it will be too much. But the day after tomorrow morning will be nice. And then I will come, I will have some lunch with you.

Last time I could not have anything. You had cooked it so well. Should I cook for you? I am a really good cook. Really, I cook very well.

All right? I am dying to meet your children. They are so great. They are all born realised.

Gregoire: Just put your hands like this towards Mother, with your palms upwards.

Shri Mataji: Close your eyes. The lights are too sharp. Can you put off these two? The lights are too sharp. You will know which one to put off? Armand? [UNCLEAR]. Oh, thank you very much. That is better.

Now, one has to put the right hand on the heart. Right hand inside, inside. It is better. No, with the blouse it is all right. But if you are wearing a coat or something hard.

Now you have to say, “Mother, I am the Spirit”. Last time I asked you to ask the question, now say it. Now you say, “Mother, I am the Spirit”. Now put the right hand on the left-hand side.

Now just say, “Mother I am the Spirit”.

Seekers: Mother, I am the Spirit.

Shri Mataji: Again. With full Spirit.

Seekers: Mother, I am the Spirit.

Shri Mataji: Again, please.

Seekers: Mother, I am the Spirit.

Shri Mataji: Good. Now put your right hand down, up to – very low. Below the stomach. Very low. Which we call as the left Swadishthana.

Now you say, “Mother, I am the pure knowledge”.

Seekers: Mother, I am the pure knowledge.

Shri Mataji: Again.

Seekers: Mother, I am the pure knowledge.

Shri Mataji: Again.

Seekers: Mother, I am pure knowledge.

Shri Mataji: You can say, “Mother, I am the divine knowledge”.

Seekers: Mother, I am divine knowledge.

Shri Mataji: Press your stomach there. There is a chakra there, left Swadishthana, which you are catching, all of you.

Seekers: Mother, I am divine knowledge.

Shri Mataji: Again.

Seekers: Mother, I am divine knowledge.

Shri Mataji: Now put your same hand little above, below the ribs. On the left side, below the ribs. Say, “Mother, I am my own guru”.

Seekers: Mother, I am my own guru.

Shri Mataji: Again.

Seekers: Mother, I am my own guru.

Shri Mataji: Again.

Seekers: Mother, I am my own guru.

Shri Mataji: Now put your right hand on the left shoulder near the neck and press it there. Say “Mother, I am not guilty”.

Seekers: Mother I am not guilty.

Shri Mataji: Again. Say it eight times.

[Seekers repeat as Shri Mataji asks them to say “Mother, I am not guilty” again, for eight times].

Shri Mataji: Now you put your right hand towards Me and you say, “I forgive everyone”.

Seekers: Mother, I forgive everyone.

[Seekers repeat “Mother, I forgive everyone” as Shri Mataji asks them to repeat].

Shri Mataji: From your heart, you should say, “Mother, I forgive everyone”.

Seekers: Mother, I forgive everyone.

[Seekers repeat “Mother, I forgive everyone”].

Shri Mataji: Now, say that “Mother, I have no fear.

[Seekers repeat “Mother, I have no fear”, two to three times as Shri Mataji asks them to repeat again].

Shri Mataji: Now you can put your right hand on your heart and say it without feeling guilty, without feeling guilty, without feeling guilty, “If I have made any mistake, please forgive me”.

Seekers: Without feeling guilty, if I have made any mistake, please forgive me.

[Seekers repeat “Mother, if I have made any mistake, please forgive me”, two to three times as Shri Mataji asks them to repeat].

Shri Mataji: Now, put both your hands like this and say, “Mother, please make me my own guru”.

Seekers: Mother, please make me my own guru.

[Seekers repeat “Mother, please make me my own guru”, two to three times as Shri Mataji asks them to repeat].

Shri Mataji: Now, Mother, please give me my realization.

Seekers: Mother, please give me my realisation.

[Seekers repeat “Mother, please give me my realisation”, five to six times as Shri Mataji asks them to repeat].

Shri Mataji: Are you getting the cool breeze?

Now don’t worry. Don’t worry. Now put your left hand on your liver. Left, left. Right hand towards Me. Those who are not feeling put your left hand on your liver. The liver is on this side.

Now don’t think. Just don’t think. Just watch Me. Don’t think. Just don’t think.

[Mother is looking at the seekers through the candle].

Now don’t think. You have to forgive. Go on forgiving. “I forgive, I forgive, I forgive”.

Seekers: I forgive, I forgive, I forgive.

[Mother continues to work on the seekers through the candle].

Shri Mataji: All right? See now. There? Are you feeling also? Are you feeling now?

Forgive, forgive. I forgive everyone.

Seeker: I forgive everyone. I forgive everyone. I forgive everyone.

Shri Mataji: Now are you feeling?

[Mother continues to work on the seekers through the candle].

Shri Mataji: Close your eyes.

(To someone in Marathi): Please have a look at them.

Shri Mataji: Are you feeling the cool breeze there? Here? David, see him.

(Again, to someone in Marathi): Please have a look at them.

Shri Mataji: Just watch Me. Are you all right? Just see them. The gentleman there. What happened to that minister? He has not come today?

Sahaja Yogi: He was here yesterday. We met him there.

Shri Mataji: All right. I hope he will make it convenient to come the day after tomorrow. I would love to meet him.

Who is not feeling the cool breeze? Still not? Can you see? Raise your hand, those who are not feeling? Are you feeling? All right. Come and see here.

Seeker: I feel it in a very strange place. The cool breeze is going up and down my leg.

Shri Mataji: You are feeling the cool breeze in the leg. And not in the hand?

Seeker: Up and down in my leg.

Shri Mataji: In the hand?

Seeker: Flashes of it in the hand.

Shri Mataji: Just don’t think. Just don’t think. You are thinking too much. Now watch it. Just don’t think. Just don’t think. Just don’t think. Same with you. Better now?

That is your mother. Don’t think. And forgive. If any thought comes, you should say, “I forgive”. All right?

You can put your hand, like this.

[Mother is guiding Sahaja Yogis and seekers].

Actually, they are to be put left to the right. Left to the right. One hand towards Me put left to the right. See now. See.

No, no you are all right. I am just telling these people. Left to the right.

No like this, left to the right. Put one hand towards me, left hand towards Me and with right hand do it. No, you are all right.

You are all right? Come and do it with them. You can help them also.

This lady also you can work it out. Hugo, you tell them.

Now this one hasn’t got it.

[Sahaja Yogis and seekers continue to work. Seekers are feeling some vibrations and Sahaja Yogis are helping them].

Seeker: I feel heat up here.

Shri Mataji: Heat? You have liver.

Seeker: Actually it is cooler now on top of the head.

Shri Mataji: Cooler. See now, now see. You see, you have a liver problem. So it comes up and goes until it is cured. All right?

[Seeker is saying how he sometimes feels the cool breeze on and off, and when he goes to work].

Shri Mataji: Yes, it comes on and off in the beginning. Like a seedling, you are here now. And then it will be [UNCLEAR/stationary/stationed here]. That is what I am telling. Develop that depth and patience is a must. You must have patience. And work it out. All right?

You all must have patience. How are you? You are all right? Work it out on others. How is this gentleman?

Seeker: I am all right.

Shri Mataji: You got the cool breeze?

Seeker: Pardon?

Shri Mataji: Cool breeze, did you feel?

Seeker: I went to Charan Singh. And I wanted some spiritual setting so I came here. But I did not go through all that.

Shri Mataji: What is he saying?

Sahaja Yogi: Charan Singh is a Sikh. Mother knows him very well. He comes from Charan Singh. And I told him it is difficult to help you if you want to…

Shri Mataji: Really?

Sahaja Yogi: He doesn’t want to anyway. He says he didn’t do anything that you said. That is correct, isn’t it?

Seeker: Yes, you know, I mean, out of respect. I didn’t want to…

Shri Mataji: What is he saying?

Seeker: I hope I have not upset you. Or you are upset?

Sahaja Yogi: No, nobody is upset. But to be perfectly transparent, we feel unfortunate that your guru is of no help to you. That is all.

Seeker: Oh no, he is of great help.

Sahaja Yogi: Ok. Then…

Shri Mataji: All right. You do not know what is happening to others. Can you help others? What is the use of having a guru when you cannot help others – you have learnt nothing. Now, these people know what problem he has. They are trying to help him out.

They know what the problem is, they know how to raise the Kundalini, they know how to give realisation. They know his problem, what is to be done. They know themselves, they are gurus. Themselves. While you have a guru just for a stand. That is all. You do not have anything for yourself. Knowledge of any kind.

What is the use of having a guru from whom you have got nothing? Is a simple thing, logical. Try to understand. All right? You have to become your own guru.

Why do you want to depend on anybody? It is as simple as that. How many people can you help? Last time Warren came here, has helped at least a thousand people in Sydney. Thousand people. You know in and out. You know about yourself and you know about others.

This Charan Singh business, I must say it gives heart trouble. People die of heart, most of them. I have known so many who have come to Me. I am sorry to say but [UNCLEAR]. If he was a good guru, I would have said so. He himself has had heart problems. Three heart attacks he has had. And nowadays he cannot speak. He has appointed another fellow. He sits on the seventh floor. Nobody can talk to him. There are big boxes kept there for the service.

All this is wrong. There is a big show going on there. What can you do about it? You have to know yourself. You are a seeker. You are not seeking a guru. You are seeking yourself. You have been a seeker all your lives, not today. And this way if you go on, it will be of no use. You have to become, yourself.

You have to know yourself. And somebody who came from him had a heart. I said, “Now what is your guru doing?”. He said, “He said these are your ‘karmabhogas’ (fruits of karma). And you must endure your karmas”. I said, “Then why is he there? Why is he telling you that?”.

What about Christ? He died and created a space which takes our karmas by sucking our egos and superegos. They don’t know that Christ died for us. What about awakening Him? Face it up. Do not be in darkness. All those who go to gurus should know what have they got themselves. The gurus have got the money. They have got the Chryslers and the Rolls Royces. What have you got?

You have no powers. You have nothing. And you are a saint. You are not a seeker of a guru. You are a seeker of yourself and Self-knowledge.

They all die of heart. I have known so many of them. So many of them. One was in New York. He was just very upset. He had problems, money problems, this that. And they indulge in smuggling. Can you imagine? His disciples indulge in smuggling. They were caught up in Jakarta. They came to Me. I said, “Where is your guru?”. “He has gone to Switzerland”. That is Mr Charan Singh Badri.

And this lady we had; her name is Chandra. And her husband was going to him. And he died on the plane when he was coming. He was boarding the plane, he died in the plane, he was coming to London to meet, can you believe it? Young, very young. He had young children. So many young people died.

It is like the Pope, standing there and giving you a certificate. God will say, “I do not know him. They will be calling me twice, thrice. And I won’t recognize”. It’s like that. Some people think the church will take them, some people think they – you better go there. You better face it. Do not depend on anyone. You cannot achieve it; it is not that others can take you. It is you who has to go. You have to achieve yourself, all right?

He thought you were a seeker. You have been seeking. Does not matter. You better find out for yourself. You don’t know anything. See this Herman met me only a month back. He knows so many things. He has given realization to so many people. He’s got a Vishuddhi?

Sahaja Yogi: Yes.

s

Shri Mataji: Let him ask the question, “Mother, am I part and parcel of the whole?”. Ask him to go for that.

[Seeker and Sahaja Yogi are working on Vishuddhi].

Shri Mataji: Now, he does not do anything. Just reading books and spending money, just like that. Nothing more. It is so easy. He does not do any work. He says you should become a vegetarian. This is another madness. But why vegetarian? For what? Guru Nanak was not a vegetarian. I am not going to save chickens. Or am I going to give realisation to chickens and frogs?

All attention on wrong things. When they become weak, you see, you people are used to non-veg food. To make you weak is to make you vegetarian. That hits you hard. Mesmerises. There are big, big boxes kept. Big, big boxes for money. People don’t see that, they don’t see. They are mesmerised.

[A Sahaja Yogi is working on a seeker].

Shri Mataji: Keep your eyes open. It is broken. I can feel it. People have started? Put him left to the right. What work do you do?

Seeker: [UNCLEAR/teach children]. In education.

Shri Mataji: Teacher? All right. Can you ask one question? Gregoire? He is a teacher. Let him ask the question.

(To someone in Marathi): What is happening? Are you getting the vibrations?

Seeker: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Let him, he is a teacher. It will just be like this.

You have to feel the all-pervading power. This is Self-knowledge. Why do you need a guru?

Gregoire: Just ask Shri Mataji, “Mother, are you the Primordial Mother?”.

Shri Mataji: The spiritual teacher of all the gurus.

Seeker: Mother, are you the Primordial Mother?

Shri Mataji: The spiritual teacher.

Seeker: Mother, are you the Primordial teacher?

[Seeker repeats the question].

Sahaja Yogi: With your heart.

[Seeker repeats the question].

Shri Mataji: See on his head.

Sahaja Yogi: Can you feel on your hands?

Shri Mataji: Ten times?

[Gregoire asks the seeker if he is feeling the cool breeze and if he is feeling peaceful inside].

Seeker: Very peaceful.

Gregoire: You see Mother, he is a smoker. So he does not feel in the hand. But he feels very much peaceful inside.

Shri Mataji: Smoker? You just feel it on your head. Left hand. He is a smoker that is why?

Feeling all right? Are you feeling the heat? Or the cool breeze?

Seeker: I feel some warmth coming inside.

Shri Mataji: Let it come out. This is what you should feel. What is the use of breathing? Think about it. What upsets me is that you are a seeker, and you are a seeker of ages. And that you are going to be lost. Now, what should a mother feel? Everybody felt the cool breeze, you did not feel it. Better now, better.

Gregoire: He has some left Nabhi also.

Shri Mataji: It is all right. Better.

Gregoire (to seeker): Mother, are these vibrations coming from the Holy Spirit?

Seeker: Mother, are these vibrations coming from the Holy Spirit?

Mother, are these vibrations coming from the Holy Spirit?

Shri Mataji: Good. See, you can feel it, yourself.

Moreover, these people give a name. Some sort of a name. It is a name to be worshipped. And for that, you pay them thousands. And names are, have no meaning. Like anybody’s name – Rama, Krishna anybody’s name they give. Now, what is there to give a name? Anybody can give.

Even they give names like “thinga, inga”, all those things. Any name they give. Now you start taking the name. Now you start taking the name. Go on taking the name, taking the name. Now you are not connected to God. And you have no idea of the science of the name.

You see, on these seven – now he has got the Vishuddhi chakra. So he has to say about collectivity. Now that is what he has to say what he is catching on. Works out that way.

You have been to some guru, have you been to some guru before?

Seeker: No, I just came back from Mexico.

Shri Mataji: Mexico. Mexico is the thing.

Gregoire: They do a lot of dark work over there.

Shri Mataji: Better now, you are better.

Seeker: I feel the cool breeze.

Shri Mataji: See, we are just putting this to Mexico and you are working it out. Mexico.

Gregoire: See, they do a lot of black magic out there.

Shri Mataji: See you are feeling it. You are feeling it. It is there. Now see for yourself.

Mexico is the place where people develop all kinds of diseases because there is black magic there. Now they have brought it here also. Now Los Angeles also, they have got witchcraft. Openly. They say witchcraft.

Feeling already? You will start feeling inside yourself. It is already there. You will start feeling inside yourself.

[UNCLEAR/Sahaja Yogi may be commenting on false gurus].

Shri Mataji: They are very difficult, Charan Singh. They are one of the most difficult even if they are so [UNCLEAR/mature]. You see, he manages them very well.

[UNCLEAR comments from someone].

Shri Mataji: What’s that?

Sahaja Yogi: He asked about Ouspensky who was a disciple of Gurdjieff. So you told me, Gurdjieff was realized but Ouspensky I don’t know.

Shri Mataji: Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff. But even if he was realised, you see his followers made a mess of it. Christ! He was Himself the Spirit and His disciples now, the Christians – God Save Us.

Everybody can make a mess. Now, this fellow Charan Singh talks of Nanaka. Nanaka was the Primordial Master. See now, Mohammed was Primordial Master, see the Muslims. Khomeini talks of Shia; it is Fatimabai or what’s his name was [UNCLEAR]. They were all incarnations. On your left Nabhi. Look at him, what he is, this horrible fellow Khomeini.

They have all made a mess, very nicely. You see, they think they are the contractors. At least Mexicans who are doing black magic are honest that they are doing black magic. These are doing black magic in the name of God. They are devils, they are devils, satanic. Believe Me, they are satanic.

[UNCLEAR/Sahaja Yogis talking about Carlos Castenada].

Shri Mataji: What is it?

Sahaja Yogi: Carlos Castenada. It’s OK Mother. It is already [UNCLEAR/out]. He followed [UNCLEAR].

Shri Mataji: You see it happens with them. They go into all these tricks. If you are not a realised soul then you want to try some tricks to show that you are something great. That is the trouble. And in doing that they do not realise that they are cheating God. They are cheating themselves. You see because they are nothing. They are nothing. Some of them are ministers and some of them are devils, born again devils.

Sahaja Yogi (to someone): You shouldn’t be afraid because no one is going to hurt you.

Seeker: Mother, is there any way to tell the difference?

Shri Mataji: Any way to?

Seeker: Tell the difference.

Shri Mataji: To?

Seeker: Tell the difference.

Shri Mataji: Of course, it is. You see, this is a new awareness. And you can find out from it. You ask about anyone. If you take the name of his guru, which I don’t want to, your vibrations will be hot and you will burn. You will burn here. Your finger will burn here. If you take the name of the fellow. But better not to take, you will lose your vibration.

Seeker: Mother, I have a [UNCLEAR/white witch token?] which my ex-girlfriend gave me. I did its vibrations and said, “Should I get rid of it?”. Vibrations said no. So I kept. Because I felt that would be the gift of someone I love. And it was OK.

Shri Mataji: Everything. You are only developing, you see, you are still not sensitive enough. That I say you need to develop a little. You see, this transition is very important, this transmutation part. Here you have to have patience with yourself, you have to work it out, then you become. The lady behind you is very good now.

Seeker: The book helps Mother.

Shri Mataji: Which one? The Advent?

Seeker: Practice. After I read The Advent.

Shri Mataji: You took The Advent?

Seeker: I practised identifying all these.

Sahaja Yogini: She has come from Boston.

Shri Mataji: I know, I know.

Seeker: Christina has helped me and Steve has helped me to read the vibrations.

Shri Mataji: What happened to the other Boston people? Did you talk to them? And what happened to the people from Philadelphia who were to come?

Sahaja Yogini: We wrote to them. We wrote to them, Mother. [UNCLEAR].

Shri Mataji: Maybe it is a weekend, they were thinking they will be all right. I cannot wait any longer. I have to go. But next time I come we will work it out. But be careful, because they are working and things like that.

Seeker (to someone): Does meditation help? If we meditate?

Shri Mataji (to seekers): Are you all right? Are you all right?

Seeker: Shri Mataji, I felt the cool breeze right away. But when I ask the question, a cool breeze comes over my whole body.

Shri Mataji: Great.

Seeker: If the vibrations get too intense Mother, what can you do?

Shri Mataji: Beg pardon?

Seeker: If the vibrations become too intense.

Shri Mataji: You give. You give to trees, you give to everyone.

Sahaja Yogi: Those who have come for the first time today, please, before leaving. Hermann here has pictures of Mataji.

Shri Mataji: And his address. Herman, you better give your address on the thing.

Sahaja Yogi: The coefficient of emitting vibrations. So this will help you at the support of your meditation, sending forth the vibration. The second thing which would be helpful to you is a leaflet in which the basics of Sahaja Yoga are explained. It is also explained how to meditate with the picture. What I was telling you was, if you follow these instructions it would be helpful. The leaflet is fifty cents.

Shri Mataji: Are you all right? Have you felt the cool breeze? Have you felt the cool breeze? Good, good. Great now. Good now.

[UNCLEAR/many side conversations as the program is ending. End of recording].