At Gregoire’s Flat, Before Program

Rome (Italy)

1981-11-21 Informal Talk Before Program, Rome, Italy, 83' Download subtitles: ENView subtitles:
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1981-11-21 At Gregoire’s Flat – Before Program in Rome

Shri Mataji: How is your child?

Yogi: [She?] is doing fine

Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] It’s been a long time since I saw him.

Shri Mataji Hello, I have come to meet you all the way. How are you?

Shri Mataji There is a child, [Annika? ], she is about, I think, 3 years or so, 3 and a half and she comes to see me in the [UNCLEAR]. First thing she would come and just fall at my feet and stay there till I have completely, sort of, control her, she is there and after every one hour she was [UNCLEAR]. Surprising, [UNCLEAR] how she understands. She is hardly three and a half years, so surprised. [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji How are you?

All right? Yogi: [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji How, how are you feeling? Are you better? Yogi: This is Irma’s husband who has never met you before.

Shri Mataji Really? Yogi: Yes In Switzerland there are so many, these people I remember. Actually these were very unhappy in the beginning. They thought that it will never [work out?UNCLEAR]. [You have to be somehow?]

Shri Mataji There are seekers all over, we have to [UNCLEAR] and [UNCLEAR] went out to arrange the [UNCLEAR] and we had about 450 or 500 people and they are doing very well.

Yogi: Is it because there was the[UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji But maybe, now [UNCLEAR], they are going away now, they have started such a [UNCLEAR] Yogi: Did they find the house already?

Shri Mataji They found the house. Yogi: They found the house.

Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] is there. But the [UNCLEAR] had started the, we have started, new place is there. Yogi: We had first meeting after you left with Warren and it was very good. We only had 10 people but very [UNCLEAR].

Shri Mataji [They are staying?] Yogi: Yes exactly.

Shri Mataji Now they are [UNCLEAR] Yogi: [I suppose yes]

Shri Mataji Is he in trouble?

Warren? With his woman, his wife, went and tried the tricks of being very nice and cool. She has Epilepsy [UNCLEAR] Yogi: She?

Shri Mataji Yes, I used to tell her, you are a media woman, be careful. But she was still not [doing the things they should not be UNCLEAR]. She had an Epileptic[UNCLEAR] and then she had to go to a place, [good thing there is an Ashram, with [Terrance UNCLEAR] involved, both of them were thinking that it may [UNCLEAR]. There was terrible pain in the [heart chakra?] and then they asked her to go. When I stayed there, I told her to seek her out all the time but she stayed out for a month or two, again she came back to the ashram and [many people started to feel out? [UNCLEAR] and Warren said [I can’t UNCLEAR I know the Ashram people are siding UNCLEAR].

Yogi: Ashram people are siding with her now.

Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] Yogi: Mother now, it’s about 6 or 7 o’clock in the night there I think, it’s actually night I think there [UNCLEAR].

Shri Mataji He has the number, I will have to talk to Terrance. Yogi: It’s 2 o’clock in the morning there Mother, you want to call her?

Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] morning about 7 o’clock. [Yogis discussing about time differences] Yogi: To whom you want to talk?

Shri Mataji Terrance. [Yogis discussing]

Shri Mataji She started looking like a man, she started developing beard. Yogi: Really?

Shri Mataji Yes.

Her own father [UNCLEAR] is doing very well there. Yogi: Yes?

Shri Mataji Yes. He came to see me [UNCLEAR] not yet, because you see, the man who was working there [he run UNCLEAR] away. Now, I have taken over [UNCLEAR]. Its really very good, I found [those were left sided people UNCLEAR] and they are working with me, they become very much [UNCLEAR]. Yogi: He is so happy to work with you.

Shri Mataji Oh, he is very happy. He says that I [our love has become] so much attentive and I understand people and I [UNCLEAR] want to do business [UNCLEAR]. Yogi: I don’t think he could leave you.

Shri Mataji: And also, this Alexander, he has come down there. Alexander from [UNCLEAR]. Yogi: Another thing, in Germany, we thought that it was much better for you to come next year than this year, it would have been too much in the same time.

Shri Mataji You people should start something there. Yogi: Yes we will. We do a meeting in Germany before we come Mother, we organize something because Gregoire is going to be in our flat in March and April with [UNCLEAR] and little child.

Shri Mataji Sahajayogi was troubled, our programmes [UNCLEAR] and all kinds of problems we had because of her and now she is the medium and the medium and the medium. Do you understand them? And once these mediums are working, all these devils start coming into the places and they try to show that she is a very good girl and this and that and nothing was [UNCLEAR]. She is a real medium and [we just get her out from there?]

and I [UNCLEAR] hopes of her improvement. You can put me on the tape and tell all the Sahaja yogis. Now she [UNCLEAR] I told her something is very very seriously wrong with you. [UNCLEAR] and you do all these Sahaja yoga treatment, and she used to do, she was better, she was improving and again suddenly she would go down. [UNCLEAR] and people could not tolerate, it was so bad. And she gave me [UNCLEAR] such a [UNCLEAR] in [my heart? ], that I was about to die, I felt, she was so bad. And Warren knows about it and you have nothing to do with her and that’s the only way she can be helped, if she could be helped. Otherwise she will die, maybe soon. If you want to save her also have some [UNCLEAR] for that.

You people don’t decide, don’t think like that otherwise the whole, whatever you have achieved will go away for a one nonsensical medium there. She is very good at convincing people and talking to people, that’s typical of all these mediums. If they were not so, they would not have such a business around. Actually I never asked him to marry her, he wanted to marry, I told him somebody else but he decided to marry her. I said, “Alright but watch her.” But I didn’t tell him she is a medium. I said him to watch on her. And how her mother behaves you know and how she behaves. She is very sweet to talk to, you feel very nice and all that but inside is nothing but medium. Do you follow that,?

it’s a very serious thing. And once you get into negativity, you do not realize how terrible it is. It’s same happened in Brighton. In Brighton, a fellow came in and everybody has [UNCLEAR] this was that [UNCLEAR] become very smart and this and that and everybody so badly caught up. They wouldn’t listen to me, to that extent they were. Who is she to you, after all you never knew her? Because she came to sahaja yoga? And you have nothing to do with her, just tell her you have nothing to do, get her out of there, absolutely. [UNCLEAR] I told very directly, she is a medium. [UNCLEAR] there is nothing to do with you people otherwise [UNCLEAR].

Believe, I think she was about to kill me and she was very very reckless about it. [UNCLEAR] Such a tremendous storage of bhoots, I have never seen before. Every night I had a bad time, I couldn’t sleep, I had such a horrible time with her. And she won’t leave she is such a leech, I tell you. I don’t know how Warren was managing with her. I mean in the beginning it was very soft and I told him you send her away and [UNCLEAR] go there for work. I mean I have all the love for her, I mean, after all she is also my child but she is a medium and she has been to all kinds of these clairvoyant people, all kinds, not one, I asked her, she said “Anybody new came in, I used to go there.” I don’t think so, I don’t think so, I felt in vibrations [UNCLEAR] was all right, were ordinary, this is one on the left because these people are sort of not listening to me. You don’t listen to this woman and Mother has [ told to get out UNCLEAR] until I come back she has nothing to do. All right, you understand that?

I would not say about anybody, she is one of them as [UNCLEAR] as something incurable. And if you want to help me to cure her also, keep her out, otherwise she will be very effective with you all, you would not know. Warren was great, he helped me a lot, and he was very good, he can get out of his problems in no time, he is very good. And you are so good, you should understand that. How do you know her? You knew Warren for too many years? Who is she? [UNCLEAR] Mira is the one she [UNCLEAR] she herself is a very negative person sometimes, you see. She must be the one, I am sure of it. Tell her to behave herself.

She does act up sometimes, [UNCLEAR] herself and about 25 sahaja yogis lost their vibrations, all of them. I will call her, I will talk to her. Meera, why are you promoting this? You know that everybody was caught up once in Gurgaon. In Gurgaon, you were all caught up, you know that right?supporting her? She is a medium. In, Girgaon, with Sharhad, so much had happened. Now it is happening again with you all. Take her out of there. She doesn’t need to come.

Why are you supporting her? She is a medium. But you support her. You understand all this and this has happened once before, 25 people lost their vibrations, can’t you see it? Hasn’t it happened before? Then why don’t you keep it in your mind? This woman is going to kill me. She attacked my heart twice. Throw her out of there. You don’t know why I tell her not to do it.

When I told you once not to bring her, why did you bring her in? All of you please, take her out of there. She doesn’t care about you all. She is a big bhoot. All your sahaja yoga will be finished, take her out of there. Don’t even let her come in, we have nothing to do with her. When people get lost, you don’t know it has happened, you will all will lose yourselves. You know all this, you should have told that this is a bhoot. Don’t you remember the last event? The whole centre was closed.

You should have told that if Mother has told so, then please don’t allow her in. If I did not allow it, why did you let her in? Who is she to you? You didn’t even know her from before. All will be lost. Do you understand? Take her out, it will be a big sin if you don’t. It had even happened the second time in [UNCLEAR]. They all are very sweet to talk to, she will die, she had epilepsy, she attacked my heart twice. Warren wouldn’t have told, she is his wife, he has softness towards her.

Please remove her, I did not want him to get married to her. He decided it and now he has to suffer. I had told him just wait, don’t decide now. I saw her once, she had her teeth coming out, like a demon. You should not talk to her, tell her Mother has told so. [UNCLEAR], there was a letter and it was very hot vibrations and I burnt it immediately, without even looking at it. Warren is a good guy, he is very hard-working, he worked a lot. Maybe he is caught by it all. I think he is fighting his way. [UNCLEAR] Have you all lost your sensitivity?

All will be good, don’t worry. Do not sympathize with her and get her out of there. But she calls you right? All will be good, don’t worry. Do not sympathize with her and get her out of there. But she calls you right? Cut off all the connections. I think you kundalini is frozen, don’t you feel it? [UNCLEAR] This is causing all the troubles you all have. Something terrible will happen, just stop it all.

[UNCLEAR] I will take care of Warren, Sahaja yoga doesn’t stop because of one person. Hello [UNCLEAR], you should not try to take any [frantic steps, this thing about Warren also. Warren really worked very hard to help me so much, you don’t know Gregoire [UNCLEAR] possibly he might be a little bit caught up because he [UNCLEAR], he will clear out in no time. And you just try to understand that it is very important for Sahaja yoga and there should not be any conflict between you and him, you are his friend. Try to understand. I request you all to respect him. Yes, because you are caught up, you beat yourself with shoes and you don’t know how much impact he had on american people, what he achieved. He’s done very well. Also this Modi has done somehow I think. You can ask Gregoire what he has to say about Warren.

He was so [impressed UNCLEAR]. The way he articulated, he handled the situation [UNCLEAR], I cannot expect anyone, yes yes, [you respect him now UNCLEAR] maybe sometimes you have depression or something, sometimes you may have, that doesn’t mean no, I don’t know that. I will ask him but I think this woman is, has anything to do, she is like that. She herself is so unbearable . and she has created an atmosphere [UNCLEAR] make him look like that. [UNCLEAR] Otherwise she is very sweet, tolerable, she is horrible, she gave me absolutely [death? UNCLEAR] No not that, that means you [UNCLEAR] something wrong [UNCLEAR] wrong with you all, impossible. Later I saw it was hot, I put it in fire immediately. Impossible, impossible, that means something wrong with you people, better beat with your shoes and get all right. It happens.

It’s so much misleading. Bhoots are such misleading things. It has happened in Brighton, you don’t know, they took one month to recover from that. It has happened everywhere, Meera also knows. You start thinking it is right but you beat yourself with shoes. Its a horrible one. [UNCLEAR] Now beat yourself all of you and all have nothing to do with her. Tell her not to touch you people. Otherwise [UNCLEAR] as it is she is a difficult case and I cannot cure her normally but if you keep her out, it may work out, just ask her to be out and tell her not to be so impatient. But this was wrong, bhoots are [UNCLEAR] .

They must have acted on you, you might have invited her. There should be no sympathy for such a person. She was about to kill me, how can you have sympathies for her? Throw her away. Horrible she is. You people don’t, maybe you have lost your vibrations and misleading, all right? You just throw her away, she is nothing important. It is all right, doesn’t matter. The wife is not so important for Sahaja yoga and every one of you, that is their lookout, that is not yours, that’s his private business. You don’t worry about his private life.

No because of her, I tell you, because of her, you see, he went with her to Bombay and everybody was caught up and they blamed Warren for that but then I realized that this woman was with him and she was catching everybody in America, catching everybody. [UNCLEAR] said she can’t bear this woman, nobody could bear her, those who were sensitive. Those who had started becoming insensitive, started taking her side. No, she is still, still very very very very very horrible, do you get that?. Now, will you please stop having anything to do with her? I got her letter and immediately threw it into fire, I don’t need it. She has issues, you don’t have anything to do with her, you beat yourself with shoes, all of you. you. It will be all right. Sahaja yoga is important than this woman.

OK? [UNCLEAR] I never [UNCLEAR] she was such a horrible bhoot. She had all these things on her, her mother and her used to go every clairvoyant woman, she is not even intelligent. woman, she is not even intelligent. She is not at all, she has never been to a school. How much you talk to her? Just beat her with shoes and [UNCLEAR] not her and beat yourself all of you. You forget her. [UNCLEAR] and tell her not to telephone [UNCLEAR] if you want to save her also otherwise it will collapse [UNCLEAR] and all the time she was coming and troubling [UNCLEAR] he doesn’t care for me, [UNCLEAR] . I didn’t want to tell her it was wrong [UNCLEAR] but I couldn’t bear her, I tell you.

She was about to kill me twice [UNCLEAR]. [UNCLEAR]. All right, all right, may God bless you. And Warren is your friend, he has helped me a lot, he is my son and you are my son, all right? May God bless you.

Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] there has been a big jealousy [UNCLEAR] about [UNCLEAR]. He is a very special person. [UNCLEAR] Yogi: I mean I have met many sahaja yogis but I have not seen one [who is as good as UNCLEAR]. Working against sahaja yoga, it is very poor [UNCLEAR].

Shri Mataji See, everybody is jealous of him, every Dick, Tom and Harry.

They are good for nothing themselves, they are jealous of him, I know that. Yogi: In New York also he did such a beautiful job and in Portugal too. He was all the time with us.

Shri Mataji And he is very auspicious. He brings [UNCLEAR]. When he came to Switzerland, you know how much love he brought. No doubt. Every Dick, Tom and Harry is jealous of him, you see, anybody who is capable like him should come forward, now Gregoire was there, he never got jealous. Modi was jealous, jealous of [UNCLEAR] If somebody is a leader, you have to accept the leader. Why to bad about it?


Shri Mataji But nobody should think that whatever they are doing is important than the others, everything is very important, even cooking is important. Looking after sahaja yogis is also important, like Lawrence. [like Lawrence UNCLEAR] Yogi: Everything is improving Mataji.

Shri Mataji See. How is your husband? Yogi: Much better Mataji, much better.

Shri Mataji What about his job? [UNCLEAR] [It is coming I think] After your departure, he had such a lot of [fun UNCLEAR] that he could not do them. So many, yes.

Shri Mataji That’s a good [UNCLEAR], he is at home.

Yogi: For him it is very good, because now he said when he is going to town, it had all this petrol smell and all these things, he doesn’t drink anymore alcohol and so on. Yes, no, finished.

Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] very good idea. Yogi: Not yet mother, I think [UNCLEAR] somebody proposed something for him, because his [UNCLEAR] were so good that somebody proposed something for him. [UNCLEAR] good work and then he could stay there for a while and go and look for another place and he could have some income you see and little bit of income and it would be very good. So this problem will be closed for a while. [and our attention UNCLEAR] could be on somebody else and then [UNCLEAR] this worry and then, [UNCLEAR] every month, he has an income and survive. [UNCLEAR] But in general, things are improving. When I said [UNCLEAR], he went with me down with the [UNCLEAR] that’s his first time [UNCLEAR]. Yogi: We invited them in [UNCLEAR] Mother, all the whole family and it was a very happy weekend and [UNCLEAR] each other [UNCLEAR] possible because otherwise we are working so [UNCLEAR], we can meet each other [UNCLEAR].

And [UNCLEAR] are in [Basel UNCLEAR?] Yogi: Yes

Shri Mataji That’s a job in the bank or ? Yogi: Ya. Mother, you know, who are working in the bank, there are some scandals going on, you see.

Shri Mataji Really? Yogi: Yes, I am a bit naughty because I am telling to my Director [UNCLEAR]. No no no. But it is a [UNCLEAR] interesting job and people there are very nice I mean. For two years.

Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] is a better place.

Its so natural place I think. [some chat about food]

Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] So in my own way I told that and all that. [UNCLEAR literally means such a big no?] Then when I was going with [Ruman? ], who was driving me down. I told him that be careful about this [UNCLEAR] be more careful because he might land into trouble because he was so caught up. He was talking like this [UNCLEAR] and the attention is [UNCLEAR] Anything can happen. When I went back, [the fellow started UNCLEAR] getting some funny [UNCLEAR] within a month’s time and they said it was [cancelled? UNCLEAR]. You can imagine, how things work out.

[some chat about food and program preparations]

Shri Mataji [UNCLEAR] my sari. [UNCLEAR] sari for the puja. [UNCLEAR] Yogi: So what time shall we start the Puja tomorrow Mother?

Shri Mataji In the morning. Yogi: 9 o’clock, 10 o’clock?

Shri Mataji 9:30. Yogi: 9:30. Thank you. [UNCLEAR] [some chat about food and program preparations] Yogi: She is worried about her parents because her mother is in the clinic, father is in big trouble with the [trial UNCLEAR]. Actually she thought of going to Geneva for the weekend but because her father is very [UNCLEAR] she decided to stay.

Shri Mataji: [UNCLEAR] What was the crime about? Yogi: Money. [UNCLEAR] but instead he lost lot of money [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji She is very upset? Yogi: Very upset [UNCLEAR]. Her mother is in [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji What does your father do? Yogi: My father was a financial advisor. [UNCLEAR] he was really working for 5 years in a [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji To whom? Adviser to whom? Yogi: Adviser to [UNCLEAR]. [some chat about yogis’ family] Yogi: Her father is working with a television here and he is the one who somehow made possible [interview UNCLEAR] in London.

It didn’t work out yet, because we did not get the letter [UNCLEAR] and she [has a mother who is very catholic UNCLEAR] and he is extremely fond of the love of her father and little bit of the mother.

Shri Mataji Her father is all right? Not a fanatic? Yogi: Not a fanatic, no. I don’t know if he is a [seeker? ], we never talked about it. [some chat about yogis’ family] Yogi: The there is Magdeline, she and her husband got realization in Geneva last time when you were there Mother. As a matter of fact, all of us from Geneva, they are coming regularly to the programs, every Tuesdays and every Thursdays.

Shri Mataji Really? Very good.

Yogi: Then there is [UNCLEAR]. He [UNCLEAR] France [UNCLEAR] to Paris and [UNCLEAR]. Then we have [Bianca?]. She is Italian, established in Geneva. Then there is John and [Irma?]. They are a married couple. Magdelino and Alice. She has recently [split?] with her husband. I mean it was her husband who [UNCLEAR].


Shri Mataji What are your problems? Yogi: Well, in Geneva, Mother, group has [UNCLEAR] from initially 50-60 people down to about 20 people. But we believe those who come regularly are getting stronger and they are growing very well.

Shri Mataji If you meet, you see, now, in London, practically [UNCLEAR] they have some sort of a [UNCLEAR]. Like on Wednesday, they go and listen to music. Then, they have a Sunday, they have a programme, Pujas and programmes in the morning. Then Thursday, they have a programme in [UNCLEAR]. Moreover, every Friday and Wednesday, they arranged programs outside, so practically, every evening they see [themselves?] because that is the greatest enjoyment, you see, together, as sahaja yogi [UNCLEAR] go to any cinemas or anything without, [UNCLEAR] this is the only thing that you enjoy, [UNCLEAR] the comfort of [UNCLEAR] Sahaja yogis.

Yogi: Well Mother, we have, we are luckiest, we meet in Geneva 4 days in a week. Irma and John have made their apartment available for Mondays. We are in a public place in Tuesdays. Wednesday is basically day off and people catch up with sleeping, and on Thursdays, its [UNCLEAR] and on Fridays [UNCLEAR], then on Sundays we go [UNCLEAR]. So, actually 5 days out of 7. Then you don’t enjoy any other company, you see. [UNCLEAR] Sahaja yoga is like that. [UNCLEAR] to be happy because [UNCLEAR] Yogi: Which is no more.

Shri Mataji Really? Yogi: No, yeah because it was [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji What’s wrong?


Shri Mataji Very sad. Yogi: Just unbelievable. [UNCLEAR] Mother’s [UNCLEAR] Catholic very catholic. [UNCLEAR]

Shri Mataji so your husband’s practising there? Yogi: Yes. [UNCLEAR] in Geneva. [UNCLEAR] [some chat about yogis’ family] Yogi: we wanted to something in [UNCLEAR] but the time was too short. [UNCLEAR] Actually mother [Arnold UNCLEAR] has a very good idea. Arnold and Maria, they come from time to time to the programs in [Losan? ], in Geneva.

They come to spend the weekend. But they come to the program in Geneva to Losan and also the beginning of next year we will be exchanging and going to Basel and who knows maybe [Misouri?] just to meet with people on the spot, people from Geneva and Losan, group of 5 people will go, take a car and go there.

Shri Mataji Yes, good idea. Because Switzerland is not a very big country, small one and moreover, the driving is so nice there. [UNCLEAR] If you have to do that driving in India, [UNCLEAR] its very interesting to drive around. I would say that its a good idea. [UNCLEAR] You see, first thing is the combination of the [UNCLEAR] will [UNCLEAR]. Then the nourishment of the root will be there. You would meet each other, there sort of [UNCLEAR], joy together [UNCLEAR].

[UNCLEAR] also there are problems like [UNCLEAR], that is the reason you see. You get into new dimensions in life, new ventures I should say. Then these old things, [UNCLEAR] on to you of the ego, start [sipping in between [UNCLEAR] somewhere. Then you start thinking about, “Is that Oh maybe this person is a bit too much or that person is a bit too much” and things like that, you see. [UNCLEAR] Because where others have committed their mistakes, you see [you are UNCLEAR advantage?] Yogi: Its very, its nice that all this has happened, because I have [UNCLEAR] an article [UNCLEAR] where they [UNCLEAR] speak exactly about this. I found that there is one sahaja yogi who is active and who is responsible and who tries to do something of course, he goes a little bit on the right side and all the [UNCLEAR] people [UNCLEAR] saying “Oh, what a bad ego he has.” That is always the part, it has been against [UNCLEAR], it has been against Modi and it has been against Warren.

Shri Mataji It has also been against [UNCLEAR]. Yogi: That’s ok, now we know that this takes place, and we can [UNCLEAR].

Shri Mataji: [UNCLEAR] out of jealousy, this that, [UNCLEAR] Sahaja yoga is nothing like that, you are all one here, whether you are in Switzerland, or in India, everywhere, you are belonging [UNCLEAR]. Actually one those are effective incite the jealousy of people but after coming to sahaja yoga, [UNCLEAR], jealousy must [UNCLEAR] like your own [hand? UNCLEAR] like your own body, like your own part, is so important, so important. You don’t get jealous of how beautiful [UNCLEAR]. So we are one person, that’s one people, we are all one, there is nothing to be jealous of, to think that you are separate. [UNCLEAR] very common [UNCLEAR], people criticize Sahaja yogi among themselves, criticize, [quite a lot UNCLEAR] and its absolutely negative force that is happening. [We will have somebody end up who does that? ], I have I have seen that, always is criticizing, I said,”How can you criticize?” They are part and parcel, they are your own, how can you criticize [UNCLEAR]? How can you criticize?

[UNCLEAR] take the side of other people, [UNCLEAR] Sahaja yoga, I mean, like for example, this woman, instead of taking the side of Warren, she is taking her side, its a sign of negativity. [UNCLEAR] I think we should rest. All right, thank you very much for a nice light, and hope so in the evening [UNCLEAR]. If you have any suggestion as to what I should say first in Rome, just think. Let me know about it, what you would like me to say. [UNCLEAR] If we are going to have four programs, if you have any suggestion, what is the first lecture I should say? Yogi: Mother, if I would suggest something from the experience we had in Geneva, we have heard several, [UNCLEAR] several Catholics [from Italy and from Spain ? UNCLEAR] and they could be comfortable in terms of devotion to the religion and they would go for a while accepting sahaja yoga to a point where they would realize it, actually they have to be against the catholic church to grow any further and stop going to the church. This is a very, very delicate point for them. So, if, for example, they could be secured in a way, that sahaja yoga is a further evolution or it doesn’t mean you have to stop it right away.

Shri Mataji: You see all these individuals that have established. Established dharma in them, the balance. See, the thing was, first the balance was [disturbed. But for what? For what the balance? Where do you want to balance?] For your evolution, everything is for your evolution. Without realized souls it was done, [that you are first of all balanced?] But all these people have taken the balance to another limit and there is no balance, its the most imbalanced balance. That means, catholic church was established for [UNCLEAR] but they have [UNCLEAR] that it comes to a point when you understand that they have defeated their own purpose completely.

You have defeated your own purpose, supposing [UNCLEAR proper UNCLEAR is kept] for you to climb it and [UNCLEAR] is going to do for coming down. Then what’s the use? Yogi: Some of them sometimes, are afraid to [UNCLEAR], also a point we noticed. [UNCLEAR] to a sect or to a root you see, and they were quite of lot of them were quite [UNCLEAR] but still individualistic or they are afraid to belong to a group, you see.

Shri Mataji In sahaja yoga, gradually, it will happen, you cannot belong [UNCLEAR]. Yogi: But sahaja yoga isn’t something which takes them away from anything this life itself. I mean [UNCLEAR] sahajyoga. Shri Mataji, the problem what we have found out here is that [UNCLEAR] who has been with sahaja yoga for 4 months because it would have been for long time enough to establish himself. But just between meeting you and 4 month’s time, this is the most volatile period of time when they are confronted with how bad catholic church is, they are going to drop it.

Shri Mataji But you see, I did talk about it [UNCLEAR]?

for years [UNCLEAR]? But you see what happens at the time when they come from catholic church, they have problems coming from the church, and you ask them, [what’s the issue ? ] Everybody [laughs off like that? UNCLEAR] But you should not laugh you see. If you can show that its all right, then you can manage. We cannot be apologetic. Yogi: The another thing which is very positive, the way you always look is to making it sequence. In saying if you make a general introduction, saying there is the kundalini and the chakras and we will explain in the next three sessions about the chakras and everything so there is a progression, people will know that there is kind of a sequence, this is a good thing. They may come again, the way you do it. Actually, of course, mother you will know.

Shri Mataji: You see, I talk of Christ, I talk of [UNCLEAR] and I talk of [UNCLEAR]. I mean how can I be against anything like that. The way the church is going is wrong. Yogi: Do you think, if you say that in Roma, it would be too much? Mother, you see, its like this, there are some Italian who were completely catholic, there are some Italians who just despise totally the vatican. I mean, so, what’s the use for ?

Shri Mataji I will not boast that subject at all. That’s not important, but later on it comes, what to do? Negativity comes, you see, people going to catholic church have problems, we have to correct it. They have to do, after all the catholic church is for you, you are not for catholic church.

If it fails, [UNCLEAR] the purpose, you can have another [UNCLEAR]. That has been happening for a long time. That’s why people have started catholic church, they have accepted this and that [UNCLEAR] and now they find out that possibly anywhere you go like this is just [UNCLEAR] all the matter. You see, it is not just the catholic church, all these things, all such organizations are nothing but just fake [UNCLEAR]. Fake things, it is all fake. e [UNCLEAR]. Fake things, it is all fake. The catholic church look more impressive because its spread out and they have really [UNCLEAR] it is a [UNCLEAR] going on, you can see clearly, its nothing, its artificial. They are not connected with God. And you are paying, making all these prayers and [UNCLEAR].

But even with that, so many bad things have [UNCLEAR]. Even if it had remained up to that point, it is all right. But so many bad things have [UNCLEAR]. That’s evil. [UNCLEAR] Even I have to say, even it is artificial, [UNCLEAR], anything artificial. [UNCLEAR] and actually people will find out it is artificial. Yogi: Mother, before you leave, may we just all say Mataji’s mantra and ask in our heart that the Italian seekers would come.