Did you hear Me? I said there’s nothing to learn from India on the gross and nothing to learn from the west. Both are in the same melting pot, one is developed another is developing. What do you say?
Man: “On the spiritual difference?”
What do you think of India on the spiritual level? Zero? What is it?
Man: ‘Well the aspirations of what is still preserved in this country.”
You see if I am to talk to Americans you know they are ego oriented they’ll feel hurt. Better not say India is anything greater then they have.
Man: “Your being the diplomat of the diplomats, Mother.”
You see our main object is to get them into Sahaja Yoga isn’t it? Not to blast them. So let us avoid subjects which are really, which challenge their ego. Why to challenge their ego so they just get out of Sahaja Yoga.
Man: “What we are trying to answer Mother, why do say a hundred and thirty westerners come to India and undergo the sort of, the discomforts of India. What is it that they are looking for that they feel they can find here, from that point of view?”
Then don’t put learn. You see you can put that what is the difference between an Indian seeker and a western seeker. That’s a better one it doesn’t give them a seeking at a gross level. Because as long as they are seeking they are at a grosser level we can compare what is the difference between the two is. But if you come to the subtler thing then there is no difference. What else?
Man: “This last one was what we thought was a suggestion you made to us that you also talked a bit about the gurus. And so what we were going to ask is that there are so many paths why is it that only Sahaj goes to God? And what is the aim of the other gurus? It’s also controversial so…”
Oh all right, what I will do in this I will choose. This way will be better. This will be about the gurus I would like to put it separately.
Man: “It’s really up to you Mother however it works out.”
It will work out. But what you said was what is vibrations you have put it?
Man: “That’s there yes that’s second thing.”
All right I’ll forget (?). There you are get an American now he’s got an American accent. Better wear some sweater. Don’t leave children you know without sweaters it is very treacherous. Where has she gone without a sweater? How are you mate? Problem? What’s the problem with you? Want to look like American? What do you say? Is it all right? All right lets see what you have to ask me. Who is going to ask now?
Man: “I’m asking.”
All right come this way. Better remove Ganesha otherwise they may question this. No? All right.
Man: “What is the importance of receiving self realization?”
In the evolutionary process a human being has come out of a small little unicellular animal called Amoeba as they say in the science. But what is the purpose of this becoming a human being? The purpose of his becoming a human being is that he has to become the spirit. This vehicle of a human body, mind, is to express the spirit within you. Self realization is the epitome of our evolution. So we all have to become self realized. Without self we are in darkness. We are not aware of the all pervading power which is doing all the living work. All kinds of living work things we can not do. What we do is the dead work or the mental projections which recoil back upon ourselves. We must get to self realization that’s the goal of human ascent from amoeba to this stage.
Man: “What are vibrations?”
Vibrations are the feeling of the all pervading divine power within yourself on your Central nervous system. You can feel this divine power for the first time after self realization on your central nervous system ending up into your fingertips where the sympathetic centers are located. So you start feeling on your hand the universal language which is spoken by the hand the different centers. And thus you know a rapport is established between the spirit and yourself. Because when you ask a question about any fundamental problem you either get a cool breeze flowing into your hand or you just stop it. Sometimes you might get some blisters also if the person is suffering from some sort of a very great mal-adjustment. You might get numbness if the person is on his way to death or could be very freezing cold. So the hands start speaking as said by Mohammed sahib; that your hands will speak when the time of resurrection. And this is the time of resurrection because Kundalini resides in the sacrum, which is the Aquarius. And this is the age of the Aquarius; this is the age of the kundalini.
Man: “So this is a double question. The west has received from India a lot of gurus and each with seemingly a different path. And it’s believed in the west that all the paths lead to God. Many, many people believe that it doesn’t matter how you go that you are going to get there. Is that what India has to contribute to the west and the seekers of America?”
India has to give the knowledge of the roots while the west has the knowledge of the tree. But those who are exported from here I wonder how many of them are really genuine or they know anything about the roots. So I just can’t say that those who are going there are the people who can deliver the knowledge which is not yet known to the west. What ever is unknown is not divine. To understand logically the difference between India and the west is this that India has still retained the fundamentals as the goal of life. The fundamental is that one should get self realization that one should try to lead a life of balance of Dharma. Because there’s so much of knowledge of the roots in this country people can become very hypocritical. They can be very dishonest and can misuse that knowledge to exploit the western people who are naïve about this knowledge.
My idea of bringing some of the Sahaja Yogis from the west to India in the villages of India was to make them understand that comfort is not the goal of life. Because we have villagers who are realized souls, who do not have any comforts which are so important to the western people, but are very happy, satisfied and peaceful people, and are extremely good yogis. But that does not mean that you give up your comforts and you become godly. It’s all a mental behavior if you think by negation is not the way. But when you come to India you understand that this habit of seeking comfort must be given up. If you have any it’s all right, but let not the comfort sit on your head. Let your spirit rule and not the idea that you should be comfortable or affluent. That idea should not rule you.
Man: The other thing we wanted to ask You. One or two of the questions for the American press. A shorter(?) American press wanted to ask…
But I haven’t said anything about the gurus so far. As I have said it that many fake people have gone to America because they know you are all naïve. And anything bombastic will impress you very much. Because American life is now become very money oriented and ego oriented. So they have developed all the methods of pampering your ego and getting money out of you. So that you feel that you can purchase the guru. I was the first to go to America and then all of them followed. And so many Americans suggested to Me that Mother why do you not get some money for yourself? And also ask for money for what you are doing for these people, because you are doing the real thing. Because Americans will not understand anything that is free and is precious. But I said that money can only buy whatever is lower than you. It cannot buy something that is higher than you. But they said you will never be successful in America you have to fix some money. I said I don’t want this success. I want Sahaja Yogis. I want yoga to grow.
One day will come that they will realize that those gurus whom they have purchased have exploited them. Have exploited completely, and have used them for their own purpose, and have run away. Let them realize because if I tell them they are not going to realize. One must know whatever is vital in life you can not purchase it. In all humility human beings also must realize that you have done nothing to become human beings, God has done everything. How much have you paid to him? But still they have to learn the lesson. And once you get into the clutches of these gurus it is very difficult to get out till you get into big problems like heart attacks, or lunacy, epilepsy, all these things. But even if you get it you cannot connect that with this. You must understand that if you have a real guru as your master then at least your health should be all right. Your wealth should be intact. While they are only interested in the purse Americans have lots of money. And I think they are more interested in Americans then in Indians because Indians don’t have any money. It is as simple as that.
Man: Can anybody gain their realization here?
Yes most of you can, I mean I would not say I can give realization to Hitler. See that anybody means even Hitler will stand before Me and say that ‘I’ll shave my moustache now give me.’ (laughter) That’s too much for Me. You must seek truthfully, honestly. If you have all your own pre-conceived ideas about yourself, then God says ‘all right go ahead, try your luck’. But if you think that you haven’t yet found out, and that you have to seek, then if you are humble about it, it works out; it does. I think in the west all those who came to me got realization except for one, who is not married, who doesn’t believe in marriage. Who doesn’t think that women are any way good or something like that. But he’ll also get married and get his realization.
Man: Why is it dangerous Mother to experiment in the occult? Aren’t we learning something when we do those experiments?
Because it is unknown to you, you don’t know what you are up to. Now we can divide this occult business into two sides one is the right one is the left side, the movement of your attention to the right or to the left and is achieved by many blockades put into the chakras. Because if there’s a blockage then the attention cannot move upward it starts moving sideways. And they can block your Nabhi chakra or Agnya chakra, any one of them. And can take advantage of your position when you are not in the centre but either on the right or the left. If you go to the left then you run into the area called subconscious and then into collective subconscious, where all that is dead from the creation is there. Now it is said that cancer is caused or triggered by proteins. They call it proteins they don’t say dead souls as we say. 58 and 52 trigger cancer and these come from the area which is built within us in sub-creations means collective sub-conscious. All kinds of these diseases, this mellitus, this leukemia all this comes from the left side.
Now the right side movement physical gives physical problems absolutely. Right side if you move then you get very elated. And you meet people who are in the supra-conscious and then into the collective supra-conscious, where all the ambitious people are dead and still hovering around. Doctors do not know about them much. But these people can work out these spiritual centers where they can cure people, do operations, and all sorts of things through these dead spirits. And they can also work out things like Hitler did because Hitler used supra-conscious forces from the lamas. He learned all these from the Tibetan lamas. He used them and he enticed people with this idea of a superior race, and he killed so many Jews.
So the supra-conscious or the collective supra-conscious has forces which are extremely dominating, and they take you away from your heart, and give you a very bloated idea about yourself and could be very violent and injurious to the whole society such a man. Such people suffer from heart attacks of the over activity, then they can suffer also from diseases like diabetes, liver all those diseases which look very simple like cirrhosis of liver. But the worst is that they are extremely harmful. They become very powerful gathering such ego oriented people and try to put very aggressive ideologies. They are mostly heading, they are at the helm of affairs, mostly they manage to reach there. Their only ambition is to be the heads. And when such heads are there they can take countries into disasters.
So anything is possible if they are into collective supra-conscious state where these other forces act on them. These dead souls act on them and give them sinister ideas. And all kinds of dirty politics can come out of it. All political problems may come out of it which has no control over themselves and they get lost into that. And the people are harmed who cannot control it that force acting on them as what has happened in Germany. So is a very good example. Then fanaticism also could be leading you to the same area. So it’s not only the occult that takes you to the supra-conscious area but fanaticism or any sort of over martyrdom idea of nation is mine and I can dominate anyone. As Americans definitely believe in freedom they must know that they are rendered absolutely slaves by these souls which attack them either from the left or the right.
I must give one incident to explain this. That some people came from America to see me three of them they told me they were scientists. I don’t know their names I don’t remember. Long time back, about ten years back. And they asked me that they have come to me to learn how to fly in the air. I said who sent you here of all the places. They said you please tell us how to fly in the air. I said I don’t want to tell you that, it’s not proper because this is only done through souls which are dead, ambitious, who try to give you a feeling that they are taking out your souls and is a very dangerous thing. Tomorrow they’ll take out some child’s soul away you’ll talk to the child and you’ll feel what a communication we had with the child. And next day the parents will find the child is dead because the soul can’t return back to the child. It’s a very common phenomena these days people find that suddenly the child is dead while asleep. It is because of these tricks people are trying on so many souls that they try to take out the souls and use them and then some soul cannot return back so the child is dead.
But they would not be convinced when I told them that you’ll be enslaved by this because they said Russia is doing the same I said if Russia is doing something wrong why do you want to do it? You’ll be enslaved you believe in freedom so why you want to do it? They said no because Russians are doing we must out beat them and all. I said this is a very short term policy. It’s very short sighted. You must not think on those terms because it is very dangerous. It’s dangerous for them, they’ll get possessed, you’ll get possessed we’ll have set of two nations possessed. What is going to happen to this world? So why do you want to do it?
But then I asked them you have to tell me who sent you here. They told me the name of one Patanjali, he is a journalist in Bombay. He came to see me because he was suffering from a disease like that. His body used to go out and his soul used fly out and his wife was so much worried. And she gave me lots of proofs of what he was talking was true. Then I had to treat him for a month regularly every day to get rid of that problem. I said he could not have told you to come here. But if he has I don’t understand if I can remove the disease can I put back that disease into you? But they would not be happy with me. because if I told them that I can teach you flying I’m sure they would have been very happy. But it is rather difficult for me to tell lies. Even if I want to please you, I don’t want to tell you lies, because ultimately it turns out to be a horrible thing.
Now the worst thing that can happen to human beings who get into occult is they get epilepsy all mental diseases are from occult, from occult practices. People can commit suicide. People can become violent you can make a complete mob a very violent mob. Like you know an organization called Anand Marg tried to kill people and now we have many disciples from Anand Marg who are coming to us. And what you find in them they built in a kind of a system within themselves that violence is the way you worship God. In occult you can take people to such a retched state that you can teach the people that sex can take you to God. I mean imagine Christ who said thou shalt not have adulterous eyes. They people who start teaching you that sex will take to God you have to accept against Christ.
It is anti Christ it is anti God. How can people accept such a nonsensical thing-see- which is not religion? If they read any book any traditional book about God they will know this is not religion. So occult can take you to these things. But the worst is that is dangerous for people in America. Is that they believe that we should get to traditions and if they do not see to the subtler side of the traditions they may fall, a very great chance is there that they may fall, prey to occult. Because apparently occult seems to be the tradition to them.
Or sometimes they depend on certain gurus who were here about fifty years back or so talked about Upanishads, about Gita this that. They talked, but we are not realized souls. And they establish themselves even they went to America some of them and talked about these big big things with big big mouths. And people believed that they are traditional, is not true. Tradition of Indian life has been as I told you is to get self realization, this Kundalini awakening. That’s what Adi Shankarachariya has repeated in the sixth century and I am repeating it again. So the tradition of this country has been through out that a person must get his second birth, which is the tradition of Christian religion, tradition of Islam and tradition of Buddhism tradition of Jainism of Tao of Zen. I can’t think of any traditional real religion who has not talked of self realization.
And even when they talk of Kundalini they say such horrible things about kundalini that one can’t believe it has anything to do with divine things. If it is the kundalini which gives you self realization how can Christ talk about a kundalini which was harmful which was troublesome? Because these people don’t know the way or method and they have no right to the kundalini they are doing something else which is occult. Occult is the most dangerous thing because it is coming from the satanic forces. When a person dies if he is a normal person he just dies and lives in the other world till he has to take another birth. But if a person dies and if he has satanic forces within him one of sadism he sticks back at the supra-conscious area, and who is a masochist stays in this collective subconscious area. So they are satanic forces so going to occult is just enslaving yourself to satanic forces.
There was a guru who went to America who died there and was very much influential with very parapsychology and all that. Now if I tell parapsychology it is satanic they are not going to believe. Dealing with spirits is not allowed in Christianity at all. I mean that is correct. Not only in Christianity but in any religion it is not allowed. If you read Kabir Das (?) has written pages after pages. But this Guru has collected six crores worth of diamonds and the two disciples are fighting for that. Another guru has collected six thousand crores by telling you that he’ll make you fly. I mean you must use your brains. Americans are supposed to have brains. But I don’t know what happens when it comes to human machinery they don’t understand and this is what it is that if you want to ruin yourself you take to occult. It sounds fantastic to begin with. It sounds very mad to go there. But is all advertising department of the helm.
Man: Well ask them well ask to go along with the Australian tour so we have them in different settings
Australians to ask me?
Man: Yes or its all right because the questionnaire will be on the film, just, just your answers.
As a mother I see that people are drowning themselves into trouble. All your problems of vandalism, hooliganism, of dopes and things that you take of violence of bad marriages all those social problems come because you have allowed the occult to grow there. And ultimately it comes to poverty. So be careful.
Man: For example we sing praise and it does open really our Vishuddhi. What is the right way to have devotion and using our Vishuddhi, so it’s related to America.
You must know that it is the Virata. So once you become one with the Virat. Then if you sing any praise to him it goes to him directly. Any praise is sufficient. But you should not be one-sided all the time singing praise also one gets tired you know. So what you have to do is to also go meditate. And sometimes when the heart is full you must sing. But specialization is not the way we have in Sahaja Yoga. I would suggest that some people really sing horridly; so they should not sing. They must try to improve their Vishuddhis try to have a better voice. I’ll tell you Christine she said she had a very bad voice. After realization her voice has become very sweet. So please try to improve your Vishuddhis so that whatever you sing is melodious at least to the ear. That’s the best way.
But your all right, you are melodious. But it should not be sung with aggressiveness to God but with surrendering. See sometimes music is sung in such a way that you are just drowned inside and you don’t know how many are on top of you. It should be sung in such a way that there is no aggression of the music but a kind of a soothing effect for everyone. And every style should be sung every style is good and try to find out also better styles if possible. It should not be pleasing to you but pleasing to Gods. The best judgment comes through vibrations. Now we have one American lady with us I would like you to give her her realization. Is she there?
Man: No she’s gone. She had to leave at twelve.
So she’s gone away. She’ll come back. She’s worried about the women of India.
Man: The Michael Angelo statue in Rome of Moses as the Adi guru
You see it means that the open Sahastrara. And that a guru always uses these horns to hit his disciples to clear out their left and right side. That’s why a mother guru is a simple thing. You know she cannot get angry more than ten minutes. They have two horns and they go on pushing into your. And should not pay so much attention to those things; everything will work out. You have to depend on your Mother. Now those who are going to England who are they? So you have to take one mine(?), one suitcase, and one very light painting. Will you do it? Will it be too much? Not much heavy. And Linda you take the carpets for me. You’ll take the carpets for me. But if you can’t take, if they have any objection then leave it, I’ll take it. You must do one thing is to put my photograph on top of your luggage. That’s all. All right? The big ones, borrow them from Australia. In any case we are not smuggling anything. Last time I came was very simple. Like I’ve got things brought out of my own money everything is there. But they said that I cannot send it with Linda. You see India has so many qualities. One of them is tremendous intelligence. And we have pick pockets you see.
In India everything has an institution so pick pockets institution is there. And we have some very good ones in Lucknow who boast of their pick pocketing. And some in Bombay who say they are the best pick pockets. So one fellow came from Lucknow boasting that I am the greatest pick pocket and no body can pick pocket me. So he came to Bombay. And he was wearing an ordinary what you call kurta with a coin he put it in his kurta in his pocket, which you can see very clearly gold coin. So he went round and round and around and nobody pick pocketed it. So he went near the one pan shop where this gossip is there. He said see these people in Bombay they could not pick pocket my coin. It is openly visible left there they could not pick pocket. So the pan walla told him please see that coin of yours it has been pocketed thirty two times and every time there’s a new mark. Because it’s a coin which is not real coin so they have returned it back. So he felt very hurt he said all right now I’ll out wit these Bombay w wallas. He said all right let some Bombay walla come with me. I’ll take him to Lucknow and see if he can pick pocket something. I’ll try to pick pocket something and I will see. The other way round I’ll carry something, Let him carry something with him and I will pick pocket him and lets see if he can find out. So they said all right.
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi