Conversation about Children, Ruth’s apartment, Rome, Italy, 24-04-1982
Shri Mataji: [unclear] I thought there was a big gap in my travelling now. Coming from India, I had some rest. [Where has Wilson gone?/It’s very nice and warm] London was very warm. How are you? I asked her. She said she’s here. How are you feeling? May God bless you.
Am I supposed to sit there?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, Mother.
Shri Mataji: It’s too much, beautiful all right. [He is busy/it’s beautiful.] So beautiful it is.
Sahaja Yogi: Would you like a cup of tea, Mother?
Shri Mataji: Yes, that would be nice. How are you?
Sahaja Yogini: Hmm, good, thank you, Mother.
Shri Mataji: That’s good. Now, I can see that on your face.
[Sahaja Yogini: I never thought I would see you again. / I always enjoyed to see your face.]
Shri Mataji: You know you all have to expand. This time [it is faster/spread much faster.]
Shri Mataji : So what a welcome! What a welcome, [huh/eh]! What a welcome! [Arya?] must have told you all her experiences that we had in India. This year maybe we may not have any group in, in India maybe, because now I am going to concentrate on building some sort of a building for [unclear/ to speak] [these people here. The land that is given to us is absolutely beautiful. The land is so beautiful , you people all came away – it is the most beautiful land that you can think, you know, just and from there you see the [sea/three] beautiful lakes [and/on] the other side you can see. And the fellow was just waiting for Me to go there and to accept, you see, that land. So he said, “I have been a worshipper of the Goddess all my life, and my forefathers have been there, and I was promised that in my [unclear] in my old age. I’m going to [and I’ll feel relieved how can that be], that my forefathers told me , “How am I going to see Adi Shakti?” Then he got his realization, and it’s just beautiful and so great. He’s an old man of eighty years. Can you believe it? He came all the way walking up the hill just to show me the place. And he said, “This has been there since the Treta Yug,” means since the time of Rama this has been. They had found out relics in that area. Such a nice land we have got. Just free, can you imagine? One acre of land. It’s very expensive. We have got three lands absolutely free, absolutely free. I said, “We do free work. So we get everything free. What to do?” But it is a beautiful thing and after that, when you come there, it’s really remarkable. Because it’s so peaceful and so nice, and such a nice thing there, and very good vibrations.
Last time had a problem in Bombay, little bit , not much. But you people are in Sahaja Yoga. You don’t mind anything; that’s the main [unclear]. You don’t mind any sort of a problem. Why don’t you take chairs? You’d be more comfortable. I will be very happy.
Sahaja Yogini: If you don’t speak English, we don’t understand Hindi.
Shri Mataji: Yeah, so you better translate it because I have learnt in this life time English language, and I think I can speak it but I don’t think I can ever learn any other language. But I understand little bit Italian, little bit of French. I learnt this time. I don’t know how I learnt. It has something scientific.
Sahaja Yogini: When will we learn English?
Shri Mataji: Yes, you will. In Sahaja Yoga it would be possible. Now the French people were singing songs in Marathi language. Yes, in the ashram, they were singing in Marathi language. I was so surprised. I said, “How did you pick up?” They said, “You know, Mother, we went there. You were in Poona. We asked them to teach us Marathi songs and they taught us.” And they were singing very nicely with a very good pronunciation. Just imagine, and the tunes are rather different from, you see, the Western style, but they did it very well. That’s the work of Sahaja Yoga. It gives you a special dynamism for everything; yes, for everything. Those who have never known any wood work – ask Allen. Allen has become such a great carpenter [and such a fine/fast one] we are all missing you there. He is doing very well. He has become a very precise, very good carpenter. This is a new thing they have got now to put Me on the heart. It’s a good idea.
Sahaja Yogini: Mother, [do/would you] want to have lunch now?
Shri Mataji: What about others coming also?
Sahaja Yogini: Maybe [when/by] it is time, it is ready, they will arrive. By two o’clock they will come [unclear].
Shri Mataji : What did you say? They’ll be coming. Is it the same house? How did you like this present?
Sahaja Yogini: Oh, it’s beautiful.
Shri Mataji: This was from Poona, all kinds, you know. When I came from Bombay I ran short of liquid money. I said, “Now what to do? Better take out some money from the bank.” And so somebody came to see Me. It was Mr. Pradhan. He said, “Mother, you know you over-paid us six thousand pounds, six thousand rupees.” I said, “Really?” “That what I have to pay now.” “So better pay.” Just imagine. Just like that. In the material level it works out so correctly.
You were fixing up that partition. You remember that one?
Sahaja Yogi: [Which partition was that, Mother?].
Shri Mataji: Which one is it? It was the one that you were fixing on the cupboard, in the bathroom cupboard.
Sahaja Yogi: Oh, Your bathroom.
Shri – Remember?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: How it just fixed. You see, he didn’t think. He just went and fixed. Finished, it was just there. But this time, you see, in one of the rooms, you see, it was time to fix the partition. Partition had a limited [Tarnish?/dimension] And Noah came as usual, you see. He stands up and then measures up. Then again stands up. So I said, “What are you doing there?” So he said, “I am trying to,” he said, “work. So I have to figure it out, still I think.” I said, “ Straightforward, it’s the same [unclear]. You just put it straight.” “Really?” I said, “Yes, it is perfect.” He said, “But how do You know?” “You just see it.” He just went and saw. It was just perfect. Wasting so much time, figuring it out so much time, standing there. I said, [“I said it is there, it is there/unclear].
Now he has given up, you see. If I say so, he says, “Yes.” He’s given up. He is fed up with Me now. He just thinks that, “I don’t know how Mother knows these things.”
Another we had, one Mr. John. He is another great thinker. So I told him to put the mirrors in a line. He is standing. “Whether to start? How to put it? How many?” He is counting. I just said, “You start from here and put it,” and all of them fell in line, absolutely. He was amazed at it. So I said, “You see, there is something like a fifth sense which is called as [time measure].”
Hello. What’s your name? What’s your name? Born-realized, both of them are.
Sahaja Yogini: Daniele. He is called Daniele. You had seen his picture in this [unclear] when you came to Rome.
Shri Mataji: Yes, I remember. Both are realized souls, great realized souls.
Sahaja Yogini: Both?
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Sahaja Yogini: The other baby comes from Sicily, Mother, and they have been meditating and been Sahaja Yogis, only the two of them, and they were all alone. They came to Rome now, just to see You[unclear].
Shri Mataji: You see, yesterday I went to this. We had a program. No, day before yesterday, in Hamstead, and a little boy of 4 to 6 years age came, and his father came and said, “I don’t know why. He just saw Your photographs and he said that ‘I am going to see this lady and you must take me to Her,’ and he was so much after my life that I had to come.” And he was just too cute. “This one, this one. This is no good. Forget it.” And then everybody was laughing. He said, “What is so funny about it?” You see, he couldn’t understand why they were laughing. They were appreciating the way the little boy was telling Me about our body/it. You see, he stood up there, put his hand. Little Olympia, you should see how she works out the Swadishthana and Allahu Akbar.
Sahaja Yogini: Really?
Shri Mataji: Yes , she tells them to do Allahu Akbar and she is showing the Swadishthana. She is hardly [unclear] and she doesn’t talk much.
Sahaja Yogini: She must be two years or two years and a half.
Shri Mataji: Not yet, I think not yet.
Sahaja Yogini: Would you like some milk, Mataji?
Shri Mataji: It was really remarkable how this child has grown up. From the very beginning she was like that, but now she is coming up to the programs and helping Me out with little things. It looks very sweet, na. [Adi/and] he brought one almond and put it in My hand. “You just keep for a while. Just that I am hurt. It’s hurting me, all right?” Then he put it on the backbone of that person, you see, and tried to take out. He said “It still doesn’t crack; still doesn’t crack.” Can you imagine how much they understand that their [fruit/] is going to come up. But the foundation is huge. [They are going to come out/ they are all coming up]. [No problems/ they have no problems].
Hello. Isn’t it? There is no problem at all. They are busy people, though. All right. [They/You] are enjoying so much. That’s the best thing. That’s a really good feeling that you really enjoy. Translate it into [unclear] so that they understand.
Sahaja Yogini: [translating into Italian ]
Child: Adita, Adita, Adita.
Shri Mataji : Aditi is the name of the Primordial Mother.
Sahaja Yogini: Really?
Shri Mataji: Children know so a lot when they are born-realized. My grandson, he was only about two and a half when he started talking. And he used such big words. I mean, one day he said to Me that, “Do you know, Grandma, that in this world people don’t know that there is God’s compassion everywhere?” I was surprised. And the word, “compassion”, in Sanskrit, “anukampan”. He used the word at two and a half years!
Sahaja Yogini: May I translate?
Shri Mataji: Yes, please.
[Sahaja Yogini translates Shri Mataji’s words into Italian for the next section.]
Shri Mataji: It’s most surprising. And the two, two daughters, the another girl has got two daughters, elder one. So they went to school, the younger one. Younger one is about three years of age. She was going to school. They gave her a piece of paper, you see. And she showed Me and said, “What’s written here?” I said that, “It’s written here that you have to go to a hotel, and there is a meeting. When you go there, then if you do a course for eight days and pay hundred rupees, then you will get your transformation.” With little children, imagine, these papers were there.
You translate for them.
So the little one says immediately to Me, “How can they get transformation with anyone by paying money? Kundalini has to rise, isn’t it?” So the elder one says, “Of course.” She says, “You see, my father has done eight courses. His Kundalini is just frozen.”
So the younger one says, “These people who have written must be really mad people. You see, they don’t understand. They are mad, you see. They are like owls, you see.” That’s what she said that, “They can’t see in the daytime.” The elder one said, “No, they must be liars or thugs. Otherwise, how can they say such a thing?”
They understand so much. This grandson’s sister , his elder sister, she is another very enlightened person. She’s very young, about four years or so. They went to Ladakh and there was one lama sitting with the shaved hair and big and was looking at his [unclear] and everybody was touching his feet.
So this one was looking at that person. And my daughter was also there. So she saw her mother go and touch his feet, and then her father also went and touched his feet. She couldn’t bear to see that. She just couldn’t bear it. So she went and stood before that lama just like this, and with her head like this she said, “What do you mean by shaving your hair like that and wearing this kind of a long robe? You think you have become a realized soul? How dare you ask anybody to touch your feet?” She was hardly four or five years old. “You are not [unclear], you are not realized, and why are you doing like this? You shouldn’t do like this.” And my daughter was so embarrassed. She told me that she was so embarrassed.
They are very powerful ,you see, very powerful. But then, you know, other people try to put them down and all that. So they become quieter. But otherwise in childhood they are very powerful.
And the same, another one, Aradhana, elder one, you see. I had taken her to one of the meeting where they had called Me as a chief guest. You know this Raman Maharshi’s hundred years. So they had called Me as a chief guest. From this Ramakrishna Ashram, this fellow was sitting next to Me with a big dress, choga, like that, you see. Big thing he was wearing, sitting next to Me. And My granddaughter was sitting with another Sahaja Yogini in the front row, you see. She was so young at that time; must be around four years or so.
And she couldn’t bear, you see. She just stood up. She said, “Grandma, who is this man sitting with this choga?” You see, choga is rather a bad word for robe, you see. “Who is this sitting with this robe on his body, this fellow? Ask him to get out. I am getting heat from him, horrible fellow.” She just blurted out and every – there were lots of Sahaja Yogis, they all started laughing. I said I was [amazed]. “Who is this man sitting next to You with this?” No, no, she didn’t say choga. What she said was maxi. “The one who is wearing this maxi.” It’s maxi, you see. She knows the word. So she immediately got up and said, “Who is this man sitting next to You wearing this maxi? Ask him to get out. He is giving so much of heat. Everybody is feeling heat. Why is he sitting there next to You? Ask him to get out.” All the Sahaja Yogis were around, and they laughed. Such things happen, you know, with these children.
[To a baby] Isn’t it? Yes, yes, he knows. He knows that. What’s your name? You didn’t tell me your name. David? David – great. One great name you have. David, David, you have channa with you? They like channa, all of them. It is an international/ food for children, I tell you.
Sahaja Yogi : [unclear]
Shri Mataji: Yes, what’s he said? Yes, come here. Come, let’s have these flowers, see. David, come here. See these flowers are so beautiful. Come and have a look. He’s shy, shy. Let him be. Just see. These flowers are so nice. Won’t you have them? No, don’t force; don’t force. They will be friendly. So many great children are born in these days.
Now you will be amazed; I was reading in the Quran, and in Quran there is so much of it. They call it “Day of Resurrection”. So much of Sahaja Yoga described less about the “Day of Doom”, more about the “Day of resurrection” and that you will have knowledge. You will know what I am talking about. I am talking about the Divine Power, and it will teach you everything [there is to know].
And also Christ, the other day we [were looking through] the Bible, that something, that, “You will be blessed by the Holy Ghost,” or something, “so that you will know My Father forever.” Beautiful. This was the other day only when we were reading Bible. They found it and they were reading out. See how nicely Christ had said, so clearly. Yeah, I mean this is only possible if you know your spirit. Otherwise, forever to know Him, means you will not doubt anymore.
There is a book written by somebody which I was looking in, where they say that Christ, He died on the cross and all that. I mean, He cannot die in any case, because He is the spirit, you see. So how can He die? It’s true, but that He was carried away is not true because He did have resurrection, went into His resurrection and then He came down. Then He went to Kashmir. It’s a fact. But how can you prove whether there was or not? But for Me, who else will [say?]. That is it, you see, that I had told them that this thing had happened: Christ had gone to India; He was there. This I told long time back. Also I had told them that Moses died in India in Kashmir. I told them, and now it is, it is proved now.
But you see, that doesn’t mean that Christ did not have a resurrection. Because the cloth, you see, the shroud, the [sacred] shroud as they call it, that is true. That is what – yes, it is true. But that was not, He was not carried in that. How can you carry anyone with a cloth which is sort of, full of blood? It was smuggled somehow.
Yes, the book is written by, I think he’s a German or someone, I think. I don’t know why he wrote that part. But he tried to prove. Perhaps maybe he might be thinking that these Jews were always blamed for the crucifixion of Christ. So he might have been, he must be feeling guilty for all the German [unclear], whatever it is. But he found about Christ in some monastery in Leh. I will find out Myself because near Leh, my son-in-law goes there. I will find out. But there, there was, they say, a prophet was there at the time Christ was there. He was known as Isa, Isu. All these names are there and… [Aside: May God bless you. Come along, we have been waiting for you.] But how can you scientifically prove whether He was ever resurrected or not? The only way is through vibrations.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, you know, we were just [thinking/reading] the other day an extracted [GW: extract?] in a book made by a French historian who is called [Audrey Dumas] who is quite known in France, and he wrote a book called the “Jesus of Pharaohs” or something like Jesus as king, and in that book he says, he repeats all the times when Jesus said, “You see, I am talking to them but they don’t listen to Me. Send away those priests. They think they are in the Kingdom of God. They don’t [unclear].” He repeats and regrets all that. And then he described, just at the end, he says, “Well, there’s one thing: I believe in everything and I believe in Jesus and I had to write that thing. But still, of course, there’s one thing I cannot prove: that Jesus was resurrected, and this is just the only point where I cannot say anything.”
Because, you see, we want to think God is like us. He is God. God is God. I mean, He can do anything. You can’t even make this flower into a fruit. [But if He’s God, it means that he can really do it/and if he can do this thing why can’t you do that?] He is God and if He can do this [unclear].
You see, when you talk to human beings, you have to have a human body, and to make them comfortable, you have to behave just like them. But God is God, you see. They do not /just understand easily how many dimensions. It’s not possible.
See, I came to Rome now and all my left foot was lame. I couldn’t even lift it. The whole of it is now full of [unclear] this left side. Then I started rubbing it. Vibrations [unclear]. Then it’s all gone. You see, the negative forces mostly act because of some sort of, you see, spirits on them, actually, and these spirits are the ones who get threatened and they just clutch hold of My feet [unclear]. After all, I am for their liberation. See, by forgiving them and by telling them to take birth, or by rubbing them out you can [unclear]. You see, it’s like a very low micro, micro, micro level working, which human beings cannot understand. But it’s simple for Me. It’s least complicated. It’s least complicated. Most complicated are human beings, because they have complicated themselves like that. You see, just call it, complicated.
There is no need to do all these things. What is the [use/need]? Just be good human beings. That’s all we need. [Unclear] you cannot get the Kingdom of Heaven [unclear]. No one is going to beat this aggressiveness and this, you see. [Unclear]. You cannot get the Kingdom of Heaven [unclear]. A light has to come to see reality, what is in what, what is really enlightened. The light has to come. Otherwise in darkness, there is such gross [unclear].
Let him, let him play. They are all right. They are busy people. Let them play and shout. They shouts at the bhoots also. All right, let them play. He gets into a loving face and [he gets all] that expression on his mother . They are busy people, aren’t they? Yes, he is feeling that love. He is expressing it on her because he doesn’t know what to do with Me. See, all that joy he is trying to express, that’s all.
You have to write down their names and tell me, because pronunciation-wise, I think it’s very much easier than French, because you speak the way you write. It’s more phonetic. But this French, she calls you, she doesn’t call you [Why is there such a nuisance/unclear] she tries and says whose name are you taking Aai, she said you don’t know. I said, “Which one is this Ruth?” I said, “What’s that? Spell it.” She spelt it. I said, “Oh, that is Ruth.” I said, “Why you spoil your Vishuddhi but nothing gets out?” And “R”’ is a very important because “R” stands for energy. “Ra” is the power of the root – Nirmala. He said, “Nermala.” I said, “This is [calling/spoiling] My name.”
Sahaja Yogini: How should we pronounce it?
Shri Mataji: I don’t mind .We had a [busy day in France, there was a media/Algerian lady]. She was suffering from leukemia. She wrote me a letter that Marie gave her My photograph and she put it [under the pillow]. She used to see that photograph and pray and she got all right. Doctors are all surprised. She has gone back to [Dublin/Algeria] and there she [saw/has] her children – five children – and family and husband all are very happy.
Sahaja Yogi: There was a funny story that happened in Sicily [unclear].Two friends of ours to whom we had give realization last summer, but who were not convinced really, and now they told – we met the other day ? that both of them were suffering so much from their heart and left side and one of them went even to the doctor because of this heart and the doctor could not find anything. Sandro e Giovanni.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s correct. That’s how Sahaja Yoga has to work out.