Seminar on “how to talk to seekers”, morning meditation, “you have to train your children”, Cowley Manor, Cheltenham (England), July, 31, 1982
Please be seated.
So nice to see you all here.
This time now again is to have a very informal talk between the Mother and Her children, you can say. And for that, I was thinking of getting about five or six people from various countries to be seated here, and who all –
Hello, how are you?
Sahaja Yogi: Very good Mother.
Shri Mataji: Nice to see you.
Who’ll ask questions to them. And I want to watch what sort of questions you ask, what sort of answers you get. And of course, I’ll also be able to answer some of the questions.
And how to answer the question of a person who is not yet Realized, is half-baked, and how to handle the situation. We have to learn, that is very important. Because you have to know that negativity is in complete force all the time. And we have to face the negative ideas, negative people, negative plans. And when they plan, it is necessary – please, come, all of you-
It is necessary for all the Sahaja Yogis that they should be equipped– Move forward.
Sahaja Yogi: Come forward.
Shri Mataji: They should be so equipped that they should be able to face sometimes [inaudible]. There can be many like that you meet, who are seekers, who have been seeking, who have been doing lots of mistakes and who have conditioning problems and it’s not easy that kind of confrontation you get. Then also you get some funny sort of people who are in Sahaja Yoga for some time and somehow, they cannot manage to get up. Very low graded people I should say. And really, you get disgusted with them. That’s the second style of people. Because God’s work today is to save as many people as possible, that’s the work we have to do. But there are all kinds of mental projections and hangs-up and all that.
And the first thing they do to attack is a question. Then there are suggestions. Then there can be actual fighting.
I had such a one very recently which I must tell you, the most interesting one. That’s Peggy and you know Peggy, how she is. Nobody needs worry about her. The kind of a quality she is, you know, we have told her that we don’t want her anymore. In Sahaja Yoga, we do not ask people to come. They come to us, we don’t force them, and if they are hopelessly bad then we say, “All right, we’ve had enough of it now, please forgive us”. And they get out of Sahaja Yoga, you see, mostly, this is how it works out.
Because we have to choose, you see, that’s what we have to do with people. There can be very high-quality people and there can be very cheap type of people also.
Now, Peggy everybody knows has been with us for five or six years. And she has been to horrible places and has a funny type of a personality, I don’t know. If God has made her, I don’t know how He has made her that way. She’s been to all kinds of wrong stuff, absolutely horrible things, filthy, dirty. She has been a married woman with three children who are Realized souls.
Now my interest was in her about her children because we knew about her but her children were very good. And when she came to Me, I told her that, “See, we can’t do much about you, I’m sorry. But in a way, but you have to work hard if you are willing to cooperate” “Oh, I’m willing to cooperate, Mother, I want to say I’m willing to.”
Then I discovered that she was actually ill-treating her husband, ill-treating her children. Every time I tried to raise her Kundalini, it was a big labouring thing, I mean it’s a very hard work with such people. I used to say, “Oh God I hope next time I don’t see her face somehow, it’s too much”. And the whole attention goes to something so nonsensical and useless person. I mean, in that time we can give Realization to so many people. And she would attract the sympathy of some here and there. Then ultimately, I raised her Kundalini thrice and I told her, “You’ve got, you’ve touched your Realization but you have to now promise Me that you will not ill-treat your husband and not ill-treat your children”. And she said, “Mother you have to promise me that my Realization will be established”. I said, “All right, promised, but you must promise Me this. Start it that way.
Imagine to be ill-treating your own husband and your own children! I mean, I haven’t got sufficient time to be with my children, to express my love. And here is a person, sitting down quietly with three children and just thinking how to torture them. A very difficult case I felt with this woman. Very fond of living like a lady-like personality, this and that. But she couldn’t do that. Every time her Kundalini fell down. You see, she used to think that she’s obliging Me all the time, that’s her funny stuff. And she thought that I promised her and how is it not established? And then, I think people told her that you better not come to Sahaja Yoga, we have had enough. She stopped the children, she never brought them. I said, “All right”.
But, you see, negativity is such that they know they have no personality. Otherwise, without Sahaja Yoga what is their personality? They are nothing. So, she tried to assert herself all the time and this time she appeared where we had gone and she just came by herself. I never called her nor asked her to come but she was there. And I asked Rita, how is she here? She said, “Mother she is here because she said that You told her”. I said, “I?” She said, “Yes, You were in her head and told her”. I’m neither in her heart nor in her head [laughter]. So, how am I going to tell her? So, she came in.
Now, I found that Rita had a weakness for this lady. So, something was to be done because I wanted to save Linda. My foot went absolutely crazy with this lady, I told her not to come in, what to do?
But the Divine has its own methods and she suddenly got exposed completely. And Rita was shocked with the way she was. Because she just started fighting with Me, absolutely fighting with Me. And so rude and so shameless. Rita couldn’t believe her eyes. So, I was very happy in a way, she said, “[inaudible] is over, ” because she was always pestering me. And I told her that, “If Mother doesn’t want and if it is not allowed, how can I do it? And she always used to say, “Do this, do that”.
Now, why I am telling you this story is that when she went to India, everybody resisted her. And in England, you see, Sahaja Yogi come, you know, are very eager to develop Sahaja Yogis and she was literally frightened of them because she was quite aware of the nonsense that she was having and her cunning and all that. And it came up to this point with the way she behaved there and the way she created scenes and things and all such nonsense, that they said to Me, “We are going to book her back. She has to go back otherwise, we throw her in the sea, Mother we can’t have her.” [Shri Mataji is laughing] I said, “It’s all right”.
Now, the main thing that we have to understand is that how much time do we spend with these people? We must learn how much, we must judge the depth of a seeker. That’s very important because we haven’t got time to waste much. And if you don’t get anybody in England anymore, let’s go to India. If not, India let’s go to China. We have to gather human beings; we are not bothered as to what country them come from. You have to weigh first of all the quality and you’ll find, you’ll be amazed, those people who think to be very much qualified, you’ll find them to be useless people. And the Divine will not help you. The best part is that the Divine will not help you. It will be angry with you for wasting your time on such a person. And as you will be growing, you will definitely use this discrimination within yourself and you will understand. You will not waste your energy with someone like that.
All these ideas of being kind to everyone is not for us. We have to be kind to ourselves and to God. All such useless people have to go out of the circulation of evolution. Absolutely, there is no doubt about it. This is what I want to tell you that today I want you to ask the questions. That’s important. And when you’ll ask the questions, I will see how they answer.
Now to be positive, a person has to see how the question is asked and how it is answered. It’s not a question of your mind, it’s a question of spirituality. The question is from spirituality to spirituality. It’s not from one mind to another mind, and I would like to see that how it works out with Sahaja Yogis. Because I know you are people of very high quality and that’s how I know all this great work will be done. In one year, I have seen people they have come up so much. They have come up so much, they have gone so much up and they have done so much. But there are some who are struggling and they cannot come up. Some people don’t feel vibrations, it doesn’t matter. Need not feel vibrations constantly, maybe some physical problem is there or some sort of problem is there. But the main thing is the attitude of a person is important and negative people are there to take our time, to divert our attention. They’ll go into tantrums and show-off, they’ll do this, they’ll do that, and they’ll try to divert out attention to them, attention from the Spirit, attention from our ascent, attention from our work that is so important, the emancipation of the whole humanity. So, we must understand that our lives are valuable lives. We are Sahaja Yogis. We are workers of God. Our Kundalini has risen, we are Realized souls of a very high quality and we have not to waste our energy to people who do not deserve our attention. That’s very important, between you and Me, I am telling you this story. It’s all right what I do. It’s different, I play quite a lot of things with them. And I see to it that they get out. But you please don’t waste your energy. If you find somebody difficult, funny, better give up that person.
Now with this idea, we’ll have about one person from every country. They’ll sit down here and I would like to see. You should all ask questions. Questions, not material, but about Kundalini, about what answer to be given because now as you are going in the fields, you know people ask you questions, and what questions they ask, and how to answer these questions, so we can sort it out just now. Because sometimes, they can be so aggressive that you can be just dumbfound. But as I said, after a certain time, you should just give them up as lost. It’s not our responsibility to give Realization to everyone. It’s not expected. It’s only those who deserve that will get it. It’s the deserving quality of people that’s important. If they are not deserving, we are not interested in them. We are sufficient already. Better– I always say that those people who are to enter into the Kingdom of God should only enter and not every Dick, Tom, and Harry. It’s important. So, those people who cause problems, just do it to because they attract our attention.
And Sahaja Yoga, you know, as it is, it’s very different from other so-called organizations of God. Here the genuineness is judged by vibrations and by attitude of yourselves. You have to be extremely positive. I’ve seen even some cancer patients who came to Sahaja Yoga who are so very positive, it’s surprising. And some people, for nothing at all, they’re wasting your time and energy. So, the interest should be for the people who are of [that] quality and not for people who are just wasting our time and energy. It’s a kind of an ego within us there I think that we try to correct people who are good for nothing. We cannot. It’s all right, they are hard nuts, but why do we need to break our teeth for that?
This is what I want to tell you. After this experience, now, Rita has said, taken a vow that she’ll have nothing to do with Peggy. And she always used to peg her down to Me every time. Rita used to telephone to Me about her, she used to tell Me, “Mother please look after her, all the Sahaja Yogis are angry [laughter]”. Especially, she said, “People have told her off and cannot come to the programs”. That’s how it was. So, thank God now she’s corrected. I’ve tried my own ways. But you can directly understand and know that you know in your heart who is settled and who is not settled. You know very well about everyone. You are quite capable. But if you try to be extreme, “Now, let it be, let it be, it’s all right”. They are no good. They can never come out. So why waste your energy? Simple thing is that whether you are good or bad, or if your heart is like that– just the same. As Sahaja Yogis, we have to realize our position. The work is very important. It’s not that we are here for England or America or for China, we are for the whole world. Whenever we can get people of that quality, we are going to collect and decamp. All right?
Now. So, I would say that we get some people here, like from every country that- you’ll be there.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, maybe Bryan could come first.
Shri Mataji: Bryan also. No, Bryan should ask the questions first of all, then I will put you down in his place and he can switch.
Shri Mataji: All right. Then, now we’ve got Kamala [unsure] from England and we have to answer, you see. Everybody has to answer because it’s a ‘one answer’. Then I think Steve can come from America. Marie can come from France. [Olga?] you come from Switzerland. All right, now nobody is higher or lower. You see, they’ll ask questions that have to be asked. Need not be answered. It cannot be answered? One should not worry. But anyone of you can answer the question.
Now there are so many intelligent and intellectuals [laughter] and over-educated people sitting here. The ones who have to ask the questions are always better placed than the people who have to answer. All right? So, in a way I would like to see how the questions are asked and what answer is given. I would like to see the game.
All right. Can you ask to get Me something?
Sahaja Yogi: A cup of tea? Would one of the ladies get Mother a cup of tea please?
Shri Mataji: Now, yesterday’s speech was really good. [Inaudible]
Yes, come along and sit. Ah, you must know, there are great intellectuals sitting here [laughter]. Be careful, all right. So, we are very friendly and nice
Who else from which countries are here? Spain?
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, there’s Robert’s from Belgium.
Shri Mataji: Is he there, Robert?
Marie: Yes. Robert?
Shri Mataji: Robert, come along, come along.
I’m so happy to know what you’ve done! Really remarkable, I must say this. Robert, I really say: what a man!
[Laughter and applause]. Do you remember how we shot off, you see, that horrible Rajneesh [Osho]? From there he came in, how we shot off! Remember him? [Inaudible]
I’m very proud of you.
Robert: Thank you Mother. My ego is going into this.
Shri Mataji: That’s good. Ego is the same one. That should be the right type of ego.
[laughter]. That type, that ego is a better type where you question the wrong type of a person. But that ego which questions the right type of person is a stupid ego because it has no sense, it has no wisdom. But, you see, for him to come, it’s hell I tell you, you see, he’s sickening, he’s very sickening, he sickens people. How horrid. Most of the people whom I know who were living about, say, from the beginning of it must have ended up in a lunatic asylum, most of them. Or, [inaudible], another thing I must tell you. Those, don there, have been doing this for years [inaudible],
Robert: I saw pictures of him, recent pictures, and he wears –
Sahaja Yogis: Gloves?
Robert: Yes. He wears now gloves.
Shri Mataji: Why?
Robert: And big warm gloves. I think he is crazy.
Robert: And I had vomited from this picture.
Shri Mataji: Let him not die because otherwise he will be more troublesome. It’s all right.
All right, now, please make yourself comfortable.
Now, most of the people who are real Sahaja Yogis should ask questions and not those who are yet too weeks and formless, all right? Because they, still I know they, they have to reach a certain stage of understanding. All right, from Sahaja Yogis only. Don’t become thoughtless aware. [Laughter].
Sahaja Yogi: You said not mind to mind.
Shri Mataji: All right. Not mind to mind either. But let the inspiration come. [Inaudible]
In India, you’ve led the day to day life and you have been facing other people in Sahaja Yoga. You should ask questions about that, what are the questions they have asked, what was the problem. Now, for this, why do you think you have to that way? All right?
Because, you see, now we should sit there all the time. [Unsure] It would be nice expressions. [Laughter]. All right? Three on this side and three on [inaudible]
Let’s have it now. Ah, that’s it, that’s a good idea.
Now, come along.
Sahaja Yogi: What to say to somebody who comes up and says very concernedly: ‘what is the difference between Sahaja Yoga and these-’
Shri Mataji: What is it?
Sahaja Yogi: What’s the difference between what you are doing and what these cults or these other gurus are doing? They all seem saying the same thing, I mean, they do.
Shri Mataji: Say‚ they are using the same language.
Sahaja Yogi: Using the same language.
Shri Mataji: Ah, you see, because in 1970, I was in America, they have picked up everything. And a gentleman told Me, warned Me. He told Me: “Mother, You’d better get all your tapes ” – or what you call them?
Sahaja Yogis: Copyrights.
Shri Mataji: Copyrights! You see. I said: “Why?” He said: “No, this audio words ‘vibrations’ this, that, will used by these people, ‘chakras’ and all”. I said: “Very good!” But ultimately, they have to come to Me for Realization. But they are using the same, I agree with you but doesn’t matter. Now, tell him: What’s the difference between the technique of Sahaja Yoga and the technique of these people? They use the same words.
[A Sahaja Yogini refuses]
Let’s have another person, who? Warren?
Warren: All the basic differences, I feel Mother is that, in Sahaja Yoga, it’s not the promise of an experience it’s the actualization. Something actually happens in the presence of Mataji or other Realized souls. And you get it.
Another Sahaja Yogi: They also make experiences.
Shri Mataji: They have their experiences. Now, let’s see.
Marie: One thing that you can explain is whether they keep the freedom of the individual or whether the individual is actually maneuvered. And you can explain.
Shri Mataji: How exactly would you know [unsure]? Then how [inaudible] by mesmerized or not by mesmerized?
Marie: Yes, if you are in Sahaja, then you don’t know. But if you look for and you’re asking, you can ask the people to see how does it work, do you feel that these people are free in what they are doing? Do you feel that they doing it out their own freewill? Do they look like individuals? If you go there, are you taught to think for yourself? And is it something where your freedom is respected. Because a lot of the other ones you can explain that to people is that people are taken in charge and they are taken in charge morning till evening and even during the night. They never have to learn and they do this, do that, sing and pray and do whatever and they never stop. And they’re actually made to fit into a mould and once they are nicely shaped, they can’t out of it.
Shri Mataji: You mean they don’t understand what they are doing?
Marie: Eventually, they don’t. They’re fitted into something and it’s some weakness from their left side which make them want to be led. And it’s something that you still find in Sahaja Yogis, if you look carefully in yourself, we all still got that. And we all have to be careful of it. Because it’s still there, this tendency to want to fit into an organisation, be a “something” [inaudible]
[Shri Mataji is laughing.]
Marie: And not be who you are.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Marie: And go through with it, go and look at yourself and go through with it. And that’s the way it works, people are told that you, you know, are talking nice and all this, and all that. But basically, they are taken in charge. And then they don’t think for themselves. And the language, yes, is correct, but you have to see the results. If you want facts, there are plenty of facts, and these people got files and a [inaudible] of files [unsure] on what happened to people going there and if you managed to get them out, if ever. And that’s were the difference is.
Shri Mataji: It’s very weird, you know, the Sahaj is not being different, it’s rather weird I should say. All right, let’s see. Now, just see what she has to say. Let’s see
All right, let’s see what [?] has to say.
Sahaja Yogini: Mother, there are two points that we usually make. One is that you can’t pay for it and then you don’t pay for it. And this especially, comes up in America because there are people who used to pay for absolutely everything-
Shri Mataji: Anything happens in America.
Sahaja Yogini: You go to this introduction, to that introduction, quite always that way. It’s not like over here.
Shri Mataji: All right.
Sahaja Yogini: So, that’s something that attracts a lot of people if they are used to pay for things, you know, if this is a sort of wage there. And you say: “You cannot pay for it; we won’t accept things”.
And in fact, you’ll be some one that [inaudible] because it’s your own birthday.
Shri Mataji: But that’s the gross. But what happens to the subtle?
Sahaja Yogini: Subtlety.
Shri Mataji: In a subtle way.
Sahaja Yogini: Subtlety the Kundalini is awakened. And the great thing about that is that you become collectively conscious, which is something that can’t be fake. You cannot Collective Consciousness. And it’s very simple, you can give an example. If you blindfold seven children and you haven’t- who are Realized- and you haven’t tried the vibrations in some body, they will all feel the same thing. And children don’t fake and everybody has that. If they try the vibrations on somebody else, they will feel something different. So, this is an important description to make.
Shri Mataji: Now let’s have [?] come in. She’s covered quite some things, she’s covered [inaudible].
Sahaja Yogi: Can we imagine important things about the Sahaja Yogis, not what experience it gives either, I mean that you get. But what do we have to tell people who ask for the differences is what the disciples become, what do they get, and what experiences connected to other people? Because without the capacity to invite in others [inaudible] any enlightenment at all. So, this is the [inaudible].
Shri Mataji: Now, what about him? Thank you.
Marie-Laure: Maybe another point also is that Sahaja Yoga is the truth. The truth is eternal. So, you might be able to relate it to other scriptures, to know who Christ was, to know Mohamed, who Buddha was. And nobody can [?] in this group and make relationship where they are in you, you can invite them into you. And not only about the great Prophets but also with everything, nature, music, science, astrology. Everything is [inaudible]. And you can even see this, everything is part of it.
Shri Mataji: Now Robert, what do you have to say?
Robert: One can say that in other sects, they don’t get real powers. Actually, I experienced that they get powers, they can put bhoots in you.
Shri Mataji: They get the bhoot’s powers, yes?
Robert: Yes absolutely. But what can we say? Use your common sense. Go and see any sect – I don’t know if it is intelligent to say that. I experimented a tremendous destroying force. Because when I met Mother, I, first of all, I got all my stomach, something coming out, dust, in skin. That was a proof that negativity came out. That something happens, that really something happens in me. Actually, I had not such a proof in this sect. I only got into their catastrophic thing.
Shri Mataji: But you’ve not been a long time with them
Robert: I was not so long, five months. So, I felt also another thing, the fact that Mother is so elusive for seekers.
[Shri Mataji bursts into laughter]
Robert: That’s a good thing. The fast that Mother is so- doesn’t possess really. Because I was so greedy, I remember. The first time I met You, it was the second program you didn’t look at me.
Shri Mataji: Yes, very clever.
All right, now, after all these things, I would like one of you to answer this question. Any one, let’s have, one has to come along. Let’s have Roxon [unsure], let’s see. Come in the audience, yes.
Sahaja Yogi: Well, I think the point Gavin brought up is relevant. But what you can tell them is that if you get a power, if it’s bhoot, all right, it makes you feel powerful. But in Sahaja Yoga, you can actually raise people’s Kundalini and you van empower them with the ability to raise Kundalinis. For instance, for me, the proof was I stood behind some new person, I just go and sit in front of the photograph. I didn’t explain him anything, I stood behind him and I started moving as Mother is showing us and get his heart. And things started happening to him and he begun to feel within him, things happening and he felt his Kundalini rising and he began to feel the joy.
And I think that is the most important thing, you can transmit that awakening to other people and raise their Kundalini rather than just feeling empowering you. Something which could be good. And I don’t know if bhoots can do that.
Shri Mataji: All right, thank you very much. Now.
You see, always the artificial has to copy the real. It is always so. Artificial has to copy the real, otherwise you don’t follow. Of course, outwardly in the gross we can say that artificial can sell, but real is spontaneous. Or artificial can put up a show, the real does not. The artificial is more eagerness because it has to sell, while the real is least bothered as he said about Me.It’s correct.
But beyond that, how to make out an artificial from the real? It’s the problem, because they have the same style of thing and these people say that, “We are in the same thing, we are having vibrations, we have energy, we are raising the Kundalini, everything we do”.
Now the best thing would be to be extremely practical with this people. First of all, you must judge whether they are seekers or not. Then you should see what chakras are catching. You see, you move on another line. They move on another line because you are empowered. So, you just see what chakras are catching on them. If you answer them directly, they will come out with another answer. So, when they say something to you, you must know that if they are bhoots and they are possessed then they know your bhoots also. Not only that, but they can read your minds, that’s one of the powers of bhoots. Because they can live on mental level, they can live on physical level, they can live on other levels like- they see whatever past you have had they can tell you, they can tell your future. They can [inaudible]. They can tell you about your future, they can tell about past, they can tell you about your mental problems, your brother, father. They may even tell you when you have lost your properties or where you have kept your ornaments and who is the thief. All these things they can tell you. Because their interest is material, so they know everything about it and they can tell you.
Now you have facing a person like that. So he reads your mind, all right. So, when he – you confront such a person, to deal with a person is to just get quiet. Get into your thoughtless awareness. Be quiet.
Your fortress is your thoughtless awareness because your are real. And try to see his Kundalini, try to raise it and see where it stops. Now, he says, “Why don’t you answer? ” You say that, “I’m, still let me hear it, let me get it”. All right? So, show all the patience now, try to raise his Kundalini first.
Now if the Kundalini, you see, is absolutely useless, doesn’t rise, you should say, “All right, I give up. Finished”. Nothing’s important. Our real nature as he said he used, there is a word for the Goddess is ‘Nirmama’. She doesn’t get attached to anyone. She cannot. If She is the energy for the whole universe, how can She get attached to anyone to any personality. Only She can nourish and the nourishment can only go to a person who is willing to take the nourishment. You are on the giving stage; you are not on the thinking stage. If the other person doesn’t want to have it, you can’t open the mouth and pour it in.
So, when such a question comes in, you just go into your meditating mood. And you will be amazed that the dynamism of the Spirit will come there at that time.
Now, maybe it stops at Nabhi. Supposing the question at Nabhi stops, the right Nabhi. So, you know, he is a liver patient. All right? You can ask him questions about liver. He’ll be amazed that you know that he has a liver trouble. It stops at right Heart. You just ask him a question about the right Heart. You just tell him these things, then I’ll tell you about this.
Like, I tell you Douglas. Douglas is not such an intellectual, that much. And David Prole [unsure], you see, just saw My photograph, and he went into contortions [Shri Mataji whirl Her hands] and he telephoned in the ashram and Douglas received it. And he said, “Who are you?” He said, “I’m Douglas, I’m a Sahaja Yogi”. “Really, what this Sahaja Yoga is?” He said: “By the way, are you perspiring too much?” He said, “Yes I’m boiling (while) talking to you”.
He said, “That’s it. Have you been to TM?” He said, “Yes, how do you know?”
“I know, because such chakras are catching”.
He said, “Surprising, these people now would tell you”. He’s only came home and Rustom opened the book, I think he took My name or I think, or he took the name of the Goddess or whatever it is. And he just went into contortions again. He said, “What have you started?” Actually, he got frightened Rustom and he telephoned to Me: ‘Mother, what’s happening, I just got your name”.
So, your powers are divine powers. Never forget that. On arguments, then once you have given them Realization then start the arguments with them. But you can do it with your attention. You give them Realization and then the arguments can be given. Because when I’m discussing with them actually, I’m raising their Kundalini. And outwardly I’m discussing you see, everybody thinks Mother is talking, this, that [inaudible] sometimes. But I’m really raising their Kundalini inside. So, first of all try to raise the Kundalini, because that works. Now, you know for definite what is the difference between the real and the unreal. That unreal is that a myth, that, ‘This is a snake’, is a myth. But when the light comes in you know it is not.
Then, the light has come to you. Even small children, as they said, they know. You have got your own powers, no doubt about it. You can raise your Kundalini, no doubt about it. You can raise others Kundalini, no doubt. You can cure people, no doubt. For that if I have to give an example, I have cured even the president of India. [43:39] But you may not be certified there [unsure].
Then, coming to the mental side of it, how you have achieved you know, you have given up all your habits, then you have become a better person. While people who belong to another country, they do not give up any habits. On the contrary, they become just slaves. Just slaves! They are not independent as he said, they are not independent. They become all slaves together and they behave – collectivity to them is just slavery.
Apart from that your knowledge is tremendous. You know why you do puja, you know why you make mantras, you know what mantras to say, when to say, how to raise it and the whole science of it. Even their gurus, their gurus won’t do, never do the science that you do. All techniques, Nirmala Vidya, you know.
So, all the points that they said that you have your own powers. You can ask them, “Can you feel me?” “Yes, yes, we are feeling very hot.” That’s all.
But you should say, “I’m feeling you. You have been to such and such guru.”
Then your power to give him Realization. Also, later on, he can be told and shown how to give Realization.
You should say, “Now you try to give me Realization.” You say, “All right, you give me Realization.” “It’s like that? All right I will give you. Will you allow me?”
Supposing he accept this. Finished! Then he is finished now. Once he is Realized then he won’t talk. So, you have to be very understanding of the situation that first of all, you are a Realized soul, you have your own powers, the whole Divine is behind you. Don’t forget it. With all confidence, just face the person.
First go into meditative mood, gather up all your powers and see that you raise his Kundalini. Bring him to some point of rapport. Then these points, one by one, as these maybe you suggested, which they have suggested, are done already. But before raising them, discussion will lead to discussion. And it’s a headache to be with such people, I just do it because I don’t get a headache. [Laughter].
You people don’t do it. I’ve nothing to with the people who cannot be brought to a certain level of understanding.
And they themselves will be impressed by your personality, by your methods. In your quiet way, you should say, ‘Ha, this is…, ha!’ – like that, go on saying, ‘Yes, yes.’ So, he thinks that he is impressing you, also you are listening to him, that also pleases them quite a lot.
Then now, “Thoroughly let me see where is your Kundalini. Let me see”. See around him. All right. Now say what you have to say, again say, “I’m not to get it”. And at the back, raise it. Because if you cannot take out something straightforward, means you have to put your finger all around him and take it out. Kundalini, the Kundalini doesn’t want to rise, we have nothing to do with such horrible people.
So, first of all, you must judge the other person, raise his Kundalini, work it out and then, once he has got it, then do it. All right, Lane [unsure]? You know the technique.
So, everyone whatever they have said, connect first and first raise as he has said it.
Warren is very helpful and all these points must be brought in. But when we have brought them to a certain level, just establish them. Otherwise they’ll be just nodding their heads or they will be denying you. It’s totally useless cause definitely you know your knowledge.
Now, second question.
Sahaja Yogini: Mother, You were saying that people who cannot accept their Realization, we should not bother with them. How do you relate to people around you who are loving and caring, nice people, but they just don’t understand and they don’t accept, probably they will not?
Shri Mataji: I cannot hear clearly.
Warren: How do you relate to those closely around you who don’t accept Realization but who are not negative? How do you?
Another Sahaja Yogi: But who are not negative.
Warren: But who are not negative, but who just simply don’t understand?
Marie: Normal people.
Shri Mataji: They’re not of your level, you know. But as a person who is higher than others, you should be patronizing. And you should know they are still blind, they are ignorant, they haven’t got the knowledge, all right, they will get it.
Keep it like that, position like that. That [inaudible]
There is no need to talk of Sahaja Yoga with those people, but in your life only, in your way of life, they will understand, gradually, they’ll come. Maybe they are inadequate, perhaps, maybe, or maybe they are not seekers or maybe their time has not yet come. You cannot force it out. My own daughters are not Realized, I’m not worried. They know I am something great, no doubt about it. And they think they are [ordinary?] people. Or else, whatever it is, let them be what they like. It’s all right, I am living a normal life with them.
But your own life will convince them that you’re right. And they might start respecting you very much. And after some time, not only respecting you, but listening to you and then accepting Sahaja Yoga. There should be no quarrel with them. Sahaja Yoga is the most precious thing and you cannot waste it on anyone. You cannot. Christ has said, “Don’t go yourself… before …. good people” [Inaudible 51:02]; that’s what it is.
But those people who are around you, who are they? These are your brothers and sisters, these people are, they speak your language. They are there, it’s all right, they will also get their Realization but they can’t speak your language.
You may love them. Supposing you have a dog in the family– I’m not saying they are dogs [laughter]– but what I mean is just supposing you have a dog that doesn’t have the human awareness. We love the dog the very much, no doubt you look after the dog, all right but you don’t talk with him. You don’t expect him to talk like us.
So, the awareness is at that level. On the contrary, we have to be very patronizing and extremely kind. All right?
Now can you answer this question and elaborate it? Who will start it now? You see, with some people who have had horrible experiences, will be the people who are around Me. So, I would request you first of all to speak, Warren.
Warren: Well, I think we got one example this weekend at Robert’s home. His parents have gained their Realization.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Warren: From You.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, yes! I know.
Warren: Absolutely sweet people, absolutely balanced people in the sense in which society sees it as a whole, and yet they can’t see the depth that Robert can see. They treated a little patronizingly, like “there, there, it will be all right. You do it your way and we’ll do it our way”. Meanwhile they have their cigarettes and they entertain their guests and they have their lifestyle. But Robert’s determination was to set the example, to transform, to let them see by his transformation that Sahaja Yoga is it.
When we were there, they behaved like– they became disturbed by the tranquillity that he was. They started rushing around and shouting, and giving orders and a few things, and slowly they could see what is happening and they started to look at themselves. There was a little microcosm of the transformation actually over that weekend when we were there. You can do it by transformation. And People start to watch and then instead of running around in circles getting nowhere, they start to say “oh this is something great”.
Shri Mataji: Very true. What would you say Christine? It’s a difficult question for you.
Christine: Well there’s certainly no point in arguing about it or trying to discuss Sahaja Yoga beyond telling, if anybody asks, you can say how much good it’s done to you, how much you’re transformed. You can say many things if people are interested. And if they are not, you can, you just live with them, you just be yourself. You enjoy yourself and they will see you enjoying yourself much more than they’re enjoying themselves.
And, “Hmm, what’s going on here?” Then they might become a little bit curious. But if they don’t, it doesn’t matter either. And really, unless somebody is seeking, unless they’re asking for it, then all we can do is be there. You know, just go about our business, just do what has to be done and be perfectly normal.
Shri Mataji: And I’ll go a little further. If you try to take interest in anyone like that, you’ll have very bad experiences.
Christine: Oh, yes.
Shri Mataji: Never good. Okay?
Christine: Yes, never even try because then you’ll really get caught up.
Shri Mataji: All right, now we’ll have another question.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother?
Shri Mataji: Yes, please?
Sahaja Yogi: I have a question now, besides all the questions.
Shri Mataji: I can’t hear you.
Sahaja Yogi: My sister and myself and Christopher, her husband, went to see my parents the other week and they had a whole experience there. They just went absolutely crazy, you know. I was wondering what would you do in that situation because when you can’t even get a word in, all you can do it sit there [laughter], what would you do in that situation? Because I don’t know. Now they’re just entangling themselves you know.
Shri Mataji: That’s it. That’s it. Pat can tell you. Pat? Come along.
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible]
Pat: Well I got quite a lot of problems with my parents. To begin with, we were working to convert them, you know [inaudible] and we just- in our first puja, we just got carried away and we said, “too much, too soon”. You know, we just-in fact, it nearly worked because we were so enthusiastic. My father got Realization, he gave up drinking and he started saying the Catholic church has never really satisfied him and all this; And my mother panicked. [Inaudible] and then he gave up and went back to drinking and she’s very happy. [Laughter] But we still haven’t given up hope but the problem was that we were [inaudible] together too involved, I think. But you can get upset with it because you are so closed to them and in the end, I was getting very, very upset because my father- I mean the situation I have with my son is [inaudible] my parents.
And my father hearing bad news taking this from Kevin [unsure] and I was getting really upset because I had tried to be nice with him all the time. And inside, I was getting furious. But, in the end, one day I was so upset because he’s been beating Kevin thinking this would be his right. And my mother said, look this is ridiculous, “Just go and teach him a lesson. Go and get rid of his drink”. So, I went home and got hold [inaudible] and they were horrified. But it made the brake, you know. Afterwards my father said, “You quite respect me for what I have done, [inaudible]”. But since them, I have been more detached.
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible] First, if you had asked him this about four years back, he was very serious and he used to feel it too much, saying, “My father”, every time he used to say, “Mother see, my father drinks. My mother is like that”. In the morning he was so upset, he would come out with such an expression, you see, absolutely disgusting. But now, you see, they are taking it very easily, I mean, it’s a joke for them, now it’s nothing so disgusting or, I mean sort of comparing. And they would think that their Realization is useless because the father is drinking, the mother- you see, your relationship is with God. And those who are related to God are your relations- real. Others are just by the way, they are there, all right, but then they started enjoying them, they never were so upset as they were before. This is what happens as you start growing.
Warren: There’s also a very subtle ego sometimes about because-
Shri Mataji: You think they have.
Warren: If we can’t change them.
Shri Mataji: That’s true, it’s true, it’s true, it’s true.
Warren: We get a bit upset and that translates into a sort of caring attitude which is of course is very false.
Shri Mataji: Yes, it’s true.
Shri Mataji: Yes
Sahaja Yogi; The thing is Mother, if we have been spoken to our friends and told them about Sahaja Yoga, yet they immediately condemn you. But every time you walk through the door, they scream at you and shout at you and you are trying to love them. And whatever you’re doing, I mean I’m not trying to indoor in Sahaja Yoga or anything. It’s just they scream for no reason.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Weaknesses.
Marie: Also, what’s wrong with them?
You shouldn’t share this [inaudible] than the stomach.
Shri Mataji: No, but you see, it is also sometimes when there are bhoots, they react like that. It is so. John will tell you, there was a fellow who is running a – your friend, John, was running that, a big store or something. We went with him in the car and he was a Raktabija disciple. You remember, you went amuck?
John: Yes, Mother.
Shri Mataji: And poor John, you know, he wanted to jump out of the car [Shri Mataji is laughing] because he just went amuck in his presence. Just went amuck.
So, now, what is the next question?
Sahaja Yogi: I have a question Mother. Even during [inaudible] … She’s has been quite interested and a friend of mine is quite interested in seeing You. So, it happens that I have an effect on people. But sometimes it ends up very sincere seekers, another, my mother’s friend, I gave her your picture, she’s very sincere. Sometimes I’m not sure exactly how to talk about it, how to initiate, how to bring it up, and I know that all these people are really seeking, they are not low-quality people. Sometimes I feel instead of watering it, I’m forcing it down their throats. I would like to come to the centre….
Shri Mataji: It’s a good idea.
Sahaja Yogi: My parents for instance, although they profess to be against it, they’ve been very sweet, they help me to come here, they had an attraction towards it, despite what they’ve been helping me. I guess because they see the work, the change.
Shri Mataji: Well, you should not be involved. The point is, you see, whatever is desired is good, but you should not get involved in their desires. Their desire is a good idea because you should work it out, after all, you are [inaudible] the most. It will work our also but if you think that you can get involved into it, either you’ll play into ego or superego. You should not get involved with people who are not themselves seeking. That’s the point.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, one question which always comes up, it’s about You, Mother. [Inaudible] what are you expecting in this? Who is this Mataji? Who is that expert? It’s always difficult to know-
Shri Mataji: No, but do not talk about Me for the time being. You see, even if you talk about Me or not makes no difference to Me, anything. Let them come, gradually themselves they will know. You should say, “There must be someone, that’s all. Now, you’d better guess”, you leave it to them. You need not say anything to them. That’s one thing I warn, always from the very beginning, it’s too much to bear for people, you see? You should say, “There must be something about Her, we don’t know”. But it is too much- because, you see, if you tell them that I am such and such, either they’ll be finished out of fear or they’ll be on top of this, you see. So, the best thing is not to tell; these things are not to be told. That’s why I’ve told you that in this lifetime I’ve decided not to talk about it to anyone till they are Realized souls very settled.
Even in that book, you have written that Sahasrara is ‘Jai Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi’. Please do not write. You should write there ‘Adi Shakti’, that’s better. Because after all, I know that one should not worry about all these things, because this I’m telling the Deities, you see. And that one should tell it, and I must say what is the truth is, and all that and I should not waste time and I understand that. But why I am saying this? That these people are very delicately placed, they’re ignorant and just because of this, if there are going to be chattered [unsure] it’s better not to tell them.
So, for puja also we don’t have all of them there. Very few people should be around to come to puja. All half-baked people should be really kept away. They should not be told what I am, nothing of the kind. In Gregoire’s book, that’s the mistake he committed, I think, because he put Rajneesh there and said that I had said so and so. And I couldn’t take it
There’s no need to say. By saying that, what do you achieve? Or what do I achieve? Whatever I am, I am.
Warren: But Mother, You’ve achieved a lot that night, you said in a very scowling nature that question, “You’ve got to recognize Me”. And that achieved a tremendous-
Shri Mataji: When did I say that?
Warren: At Hampstead.
Sahaja Yogi: At Caxton Hall.
Sahaja Yogi: At Caxton Hall, sorry, I beg your pardon, yes.
And that blasted them up.
Shri Mataji: But you see, I made the timings of it. At the right time I say.
Warren: Of course.
Shri Mataji: But you had made mistake that time. So, I would say, better avoid saying about Me.
Warren: You said it anyway, Mother, it was not that [inaudible]
Shri Mataji: But you see, it must have been the first time I said it that way. But you see, most of them were Sahaja Yogis, there were very few people who first had come, new people, then I had to say that. But, normally, you should not say though it’s true, very true. This is the only condition you have. If you cannot recognize Me, nothing can work out.
This is the only condition you have. If you cannot recognize Me, nothing can work out. It’s perfectly right, I agree, I accept, it’s a fact, that’s what they have put it up. That has to be.
Now, I’ll tell you, say, this lady who was there, Peggy, and my foot, you see, was like this. It was so painful; I could not put it on the ground. Both put especially this one [right foot]. They asked Me, “I said, I don’t know what’s happening with Peggy and all, this foot won’t allow Me to stand”. This could not! All the Deities were angry with Me. And they were just going down and down emitting such vibrations, tremendous vibrations. I didn’t ask, I mean, to take vibrations [unsure], we soothe them, soothe them, soothe them.
See, they don’t listen. She told Me that, “Mother, I just put your photograph in this village”. And the whole place was flooded by the river. And the river washed all our bedrooms, bathrooms, everything. [Laughter] Three inches much, the water came in, it washed all of us. The people who were doing fraud or something were caught up and all kinds of things happened. In that, in those three weeks only, she said there was a real [inaudible].
[Laughter] She told Me this. But this you need not tell others, you see, because they won’t understand these things. So, no use telling them, you see, those who do not understand what is the purpose of telling them and wasting your energy. It’s unnecessary. It’s unnecessary, I tell you, it has no meaning, believe Me.
Sahaja Yogi: A general point, Mother, when people first get Realization they are full of enthusiasm but they can only express itself through the old channels. So, they want to talk about You and they want those who are close to them to come to Sahaja Yoga, to accept them in a new place, a new style, but they don’t have the capacity to achieve this using the vibrations. Because that capacity has to develop. This is why so many of us had trouble at first of integrating our new experience in our own life without staying in our old life style as well. When people get these urges to rush out and convert everybody, they have the question whereas it’s coming from within themselves. But there is a way of been subtle.
Shri Mataji: Doing that also you should be generous with them. Because in this country, I told you ego is in front of the nose, you see, like that, you have to be very generous.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s only when we know You that we understand how many forms that You can take Mother.
[Shri Mataji is laughing]
Shri Mataji: That’s you, not everyone.
Sahaja Yogi: Then we have to ask You to [inaudible] and it works.
Shri Mataji: No, I know you have asked many people, I know that you ask them to ask Mother, “if you are so, if you are so, if you are so “. All right. But you have certainly a sense of temperance about it [unsure]. That all of us should have. Of course, I mean sometimes we have to do it because especially in India where they worship all these Shivas, this and this, then you have to ask them that, “Are you this Shiva?”. But there the religions accept and I ask- because they know that Shakti is higher than anything else. But they don’t mind. But here, a woman herself is very low and then all the Gods and Goddesses are much above, so, who is she? So here, because the ego is just in front of the nose, like that you see, it’s better to be careful. That’s what I am saying. But sometimes you have to say.
But I am rather worried because apart from that, you may lose them even you may lose your tooth, it may happen for saying like that, you see? People are extremely violent and their violence may not be so much physical but mentally they are very violent people. And they say all kinds of things which you may not be able to bear.
Sahaja Yogi: What I am saying Mother, you have to ask Shri Hanumana and Shri Bhairava to do the job. Those who are trying to think, “I can do it by myself”.
Shri Mataji: You yourself are saying, all right. But you need not tell the other person.
Sahaja Yogi: You don’t tell the other person. But you ask the Deities to handle such a situation so they get sort it out.
Shri Mataji: They manage the show. But they can sometimes manage the show, you see they are all there.
Well, in the case of Peggy, you should see Gavin’s face.
How could he manage so well, [unsure] you see, she was so stupid you can’t imagine! That she just started talking like that. But it’s all managed, I agree. But sometimes, they also manage it so well. And then you feel, “Baba, don’t manage it, let us give it”.
On the whole, on the whole, we must know that our job is to save with patience, with understanding, whether we convince them mentally or not is not the point. How many people we save, is the point. This is absolutely the essence of Sahaja Yoga. How many people on the earth we save? That’s the only thing that we have to look after. Whether mentally you satisfy somebody or not, whether- that’s not important, you see? How many people you are going to save, that’s all. Whether they are Indians, Americans, Australians, makes no difference. These identifications are also there, you see, that English must save English, you see, when they drown each other very much. But still, it is so! Australians must save Australians. [Inaudible] as Maria said, it’s true. French!
But it is not the way to do, what we have to do, how many human beings we are going to save? And don’t get after anyone who is difficult, forget him! We have to get more people so if you run after one person you definitely waste your energy on one person. Instead of that, why not get to ten good people and work it out?
Now, what about you, have you any question, Bran?
Bran: Earlier, Mother, you were talking about not wasting energy on people who have been on Sahaja Yoga for some time but who are half-baked. What is the criteria? How are judgements made? How does one or a group of people decide that an individual should be left or not, encourage that [unsure]
Shri Mataji: No, there’s no need to have a group of people. Look at them, you see, the way they start talking. When they talk you feel somebody is talking through their head. You can make out. Well, you can make out with your head, it can be [unsure] You see, they start talking like that. Their style of talking, they criticize Sahaja Yogis, they criticize Sahaja Yoga, this is the style of a negative personality. They say all these things, you see, then you will know they are the ones.
Their style of talking you can make out, the way they live. Like this Peggy went to India, in Puna, and got after someone. And then she was crawling as he says, in the hall just like a snake, you see. And people asked her, “What do you do?” and she said, “I’m giving exercise to my Kundalini”. [Laughter]
But now you know, this stupid woman. You don’t have to show off in Sahaja Yoga. Quarrelling people, all these are negative people, to quarrel, for Sahaja Yogis, it’s too much. All this is negative. Insulting people, these are all negative people.
It’s not difficult to make out, you can see. Among hundred people, they would be only one or two like that, at the most, at the most. Say, in the whole of England we found only Peggy like that. [Inaudible]
[Shri Mataji is laughing]
Sahaja Yogi; Mother what should we say if people would say that Sahaja Yogis are self-righteous because we only seem to care about very few people.
Shri Mataji: Let them say. You see, their certificate is not going to match [unsure] with God. We are righteous people; we are righteous for God and we are going to save others who want to become righteous. No doubt about it. Why should we worry, you see, for the certificate of the people? We are not politicians; we are not seeking votes. We have to do the desire of God. We have to work for what God wants us to do. In that case, you see, you have to- of course with dignity, with compassion, with love, with affection it will be done, no doubt about it. But all these qualities for what? For saving people. If, by all these qualities, you cannot save someone, better forget it. Whether they call you righteous or not, it not doesn’t matter. Their certificate is of no use to us. Their certificate is like the certificate of the Pope, you see, when you are going to have any new certificate. Who cares, you see? God does not care for people who are not Sahaja Yogis. He doesn’t care for these people because they are the [inaudible].
That’s not important but that doesn’t mean that we should be arrogant, we should be unkind. With some people, you have to.
Marie: Mother, there is a point there that the question has been asked to me before. About specific people saying, But there are people in Sahaja Yoga who are dogmatic and use Sahaja Yoga as something to clean on [unsure]” And those people being quite obvious so something had to be said. I could not say, “it’s not true” because it’s quite obvious.
Shri Mataji: No, I don’t think so.
Marie: So, all you have to say or all I could find to say in such cases is that Sahaja Yogis are on their way to, they are progressing, but you can’t expect us to be perfect.
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, why did you judge Sahaja Yogis? What I am saying, why should you give them so much importance? Who are they to judge Sahaja Yogis? They are not our own. You should not allow anybody to criticize them. That’s one thing and a principle of Sahaja Yoga.
I know there are some little less, little more, all right. But nobody outside us can criticize Sahaja Yogis in the presence of Sahaja Yogis. Nothing. They are Realized souls. They are of our level. Those people who are not of our level cannot criticize. And we should never accept any criticism from anyone about any Sahaja Yogi. Among ourselves, you can discuss. Not for someone outside, after all they are not Realized souls. You see, you must know you are a Realized soul, you are saints! You understand? A saint has to respect the saint. I’ve seen many Sahaja Yogis are like that, who respect other people. [A name] for example, he used to respect other people more than the Sahaja Yogis. It’s a very common thing about him. And Chaya [?] was so surprised at him. She said, “How he respects others! Oh, he’s such a big man”. But he died of [inaudible]. She couldn’t understand, she couldn’t explain.
You are all saints and how can saints be judged by other people who are not saints? They have no business. You tell them, Rishap [unsure; inaudible]
So, I never allowed that because you are Realized souls after all, you must know you are Realized souls and that your capacity is very different of the capacity of these people, mondain people who go on criticizing, “He’s like this, he’s like that”. How can you understand?
How can you understand from that level? You should go and see saint Gagangad Maharaj, [Gagangiri or Gajanan]. You might say he is a very hot temper fellow, he’s like this, he’s like that, and he can be very cruel. You can say about him but when you see his vibrations you know he is not.
When I’d go to see him, they told Me that, “Mother, you never go and see any guru, why do you want to see him?” I said, “All right, now you don’t discuss with Me, just put your hands towards this.”
And we had to climb about seven miles up and the vibrations started to come. I said, “Now, that’s it.” Whether he has a proper body or not, whether he has proper cloth or not, whether he lives in a palace or on the street makes no difference to a Sahaja Yogi. If he is a Sahaja Yogi, he is a Sahaja Yogi, he’s my brother, he’s my sister. This is the thing which was – in everyone must happen [unsure], you see? And this misidentification also leads to trouble.
And, you see, in the outside people who are not Sahaja Yogis, make a point, I have seen people- I know, because I have a double life, I know how people create an impression: “Oh, please come in, please sit down, I would not disturb…”
That’s all, it is nothing deeper than that! Those who are deep people must realize the value of other deep people, because they are the only ones who understand you and you understand them. This is one of the reasons why there are rifts among Sahaja Yogis. They don’t respect each other. Once somebody is a Realized soul, he is to be respected as a saint, no doubt about it. I respect them as saints.
If I have to judge relatively from [inaudible]- say for example, they’ll be sitting here, I ‘ll be sitting there perhaps, maybe outside.
But you are saints, you see, and saints have to be respected, you are saints. The whole world respects, every flower, every leaf, every wave of the ocean respect a saint. You must assume yourself as saints. Saints are saints, after all, it doesn’t matter [inaudible] here and there. Yes, what is it?
Sahaja Yogi: Also, the situation in the ashram, Mother? If we have people living there who frankly just don’t get in together. And who don’t improve themselves [inaudible] what can we do with him? Should the ashram play a sort of role [inaudible]?
Shri Mataji: No, it’s not a convenience, well, I must say it’s not a convenience. Ashram is a place for disciplining yourself, for perfecting yourself. As I said that your relation to yourself should be of perfection, cause this is what you have to offer to God. And ashram is a place where you have to perfect yourself. If there are people like that, you should ask them to get out. Ashram is not a place where it should happen- ashram, you should ask Me [unsure], it’s not a place of convenience. If you have to live there, you have to live with the rules and regulations whatever the ashram has brought so far. I’ve seen all of them. And those who do not want to do it should get out of it.
Sahaja Yogi: Thank you Mother.
Ashram is not a place of any convenience. Many people say, “It’s very cheap here, ashram”, come along, from everywhere now they want to come down and settle an ashram. That’s not so. Ashram is cheap but it’s very difficult. Those who want to perfect themselves have to come to ashram. Those who do not want should not come. If they are so comfortable otherwise, it’s all right, don’t make others have problems about it, it’s a simple as that.
In addition to that, one must know the person who is made in charge, he may be not up to the mark, whatever it is, but through him I can act. I cannot act through all of you. So, you should not challenge the authority of the person who is appointed.
If I thank you, it’s just like through him [unsure]. But you don’t start like every time, like “Matter load us”,
Disciplining is the point there, perfecting yourself. You see, this is the first thing I told you, your attitude should be towards yourself [inaudible].
Relationship should be ideal like a Sahaja Yogi is a Sahaja Yogi. Worship your relationship with Sahaja Yogis. It’s who can kill [unsure] your own! How can you bear any malice against him?
Sahaja Yoga: We should be self-disciplined, Mother.
Shri Mataji: Hem?
Sahaja Yogi: We should be self-disciplined ourselves.
Shri Mataji: What’s it?
Sahaja Yoga: It shouldn’t be an imposed discipline within the ashram, it should be, each and individual should be self-disciplined.
Shri Mataji: If that is the case coming there. But if we leave it to that, I tell you: no [?]
First, it used to be forced.
Warren: What we found in Australia, Mother, it perhaps, maybe not be an example that can be translated into Britain, but we found that by being strict first, then the strictness recedes and they become themselves disciplined.
Shri Mataji: There’s a very nice sloka in Sanskrit which I’ll say to you:
“Pancha varshani tadayet
dasha varshani partet
shodashe varshe prapte tu
putram mitravad acharet”.
[Lalayet pancha varshani dasha varshani tadayet
prapte tu shodashe varshe putre mithravad acharet]
For five years of age, you beat the child, “tadayet”, chisel him out, that is “dasha”; “dasha varshani prapte tu partet” [unsure], then educate up, till ten years of age. “Shodashe varshe prapte tu”, when the child becomes sixteen years of age, treat him like a friend.
Now, only eight years have passed in this country and there are many whom I am treating just like a friend. I’ve never a problem with many. And all of you should be like that. But in the beginning, you do need discipline, no doubt. That’s the only way you can drive out your bhoots I think. It has to be forced. Of course, the time will come when it won’t be forced, you see. As I would say, first communism then democracy. [Laughter]
Otherwise, we’ll have no man. If you give democracy, people won’t know how to use freedom. So, that’s important.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, how shall we bring up the children who are born to us, Sahaja Yogis?
Shri Mataji, aside to Warren: What?
Sahaja Yogi: For example, should we get them up to meditate in the morning and force them to do it? Or shall we just let them?
Shri Mataji, aside to Warren: What does he say?
Warren: In regard with the practices within Sahaja Yoga, what should we as parents do for our children who are born of Sahaja Yogi? In practical way.
Shri Mataji: They are born as Realized souls.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, Mother.
Shri Mataji: You see, those are born as Realized souls, they have their awareness no doubt, so they should be taught how to respect Sahaja Yoga, how to respect your Mother, how to dedicate. But you should not spoil them because if they are Realized souls, they may try to get away with things which they should not allow. In the beginning, a Sahaja Yogi child has to be very, very disciplined, it’s very important. It’s more important for a Sahaja Yogi child than for an ordinary child. Because he has powers.
That’s how Ravana became Ravana. He was a Realized soul but he was not trained to be a Realized soul and he became Ravana. Because he was feeling as a sole [unsure] human being.
So, you must train them up, you must discipline them in a way that is Sahaja Yogi’s style.
It’s very important it’s a very big responsibility. But, respect them.
And thirdly, I would say that always tell children what they are: “You are Sahaja Yogis. You have come on this earth for [inaudible] what? You can’t behave as other children; you are the citizens of God’s kingdom. You are his children”. Remind them, put them up the ideas before them. “How can you behave? You are Sahaja Yogis”.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, shall we also, for example, meditation in the morning, shall we insist that they do it?
Shri Mataji: Insist on?
Sahaja Yogi: That they do meditation in the morning?
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. If you start doing it, they’ll do with you. But very important, like I’ve seen children in the West are very ego-oriented, even if they are Realized souls, children. You must have – I was telling Gavin- that you must give them a balance, put them “left to the right”. This country builds, you see, all these Western countries build this, what you call ego. So, best thing is to give them a balance so that they don’t develop their egos. You can work everything on them. Very important there, they are [inaudible] they are beautiful things, beautiful lamps, but you have to look after them that no dirt should fall on them. They should not become dirty again because I have to cleanse them again and again, what’s the use?
Discipline is very important, they lack it.
Like we, my grand-daughters, I’ve seen, because my discipline is rather subtler, but doesn’t matter. Even their own mother, they would not go out without telling Me. Anywhere, even if they have to go to the Moon, that is now what they’ll say: “Tell the mother, tell the mother, I’m going up”. Of course, it’s family, tradition and all that. And there are many people who come from families where there is no tradition like that. I find they behave in a very artificial manner. They might be born Realized, and what’s the use? And as Sahaja Yogis, it is your duty that your parents think that you’re starting a new dynasty now and these are real children and they have to be trained as people of a new dynasty.
It doesn’t look nice for Realized souls to behave like very ordinary mundane type of people. There should be a certain dignity, there should be certain understanding and the quarrelling and all this selfishness, this you must tell [unsure] it’s forbidden. Materialism, materialistic attitude, every time you can imagine you are a Sahaja Yogi. Put their attention more to the vibration side, more to the Realization side, asking them what is catching, where, they’ll change. You have to talk to- you have to talk to them. More [inaudible] about moral things, you have to talk to them. Your own behaviour should guide them [unsure]. But also, you have to talk to them and tell them that, “This is not good”. As it is, being Realized, they are very happy but I’d say, Kevin was a Realized soul. But, in between, he was influenced by his grand-mother and there was a problem with him. But the, he came out, isn’t it, Pat?
Pat: Yes, Mother. He improved tremendously when he started disciplining him.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Pat: When he started coming every time to meditate with us in the morning. He improved a lot.
Shri Mataji: You have to tell.
Pat: There are people that we were living and to see [unsure] a for a couple of [inaudible] it didn’t work at all.
Shri Mataji: That’s only here that they do like this, I think, this avoiding this responsibility. In childhood, you must tell children what you want to see, what you want to do. They must be trained because, you see, after all, who is going to guide them? Guidance is very important, it’s not conditioning. I must say our children have very good nature [in India] whether they are Realized or not, aren’t they?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: You tell them, “Sit”, they’ll sit. And here, very ego-oriented. You can see the children how they’re going to [inaudible].
Warren: And there the children have such a natural poise, a natural respect.
Shri Mataji: Absolutely. We all feel [inaudible], you see? You tell them, “Sit down” and they’ll sit. If you tell them, “I want this”, they’ll go and fetch it. You see now, just now, she brought the flowers [inaudible] touch my feet and now gone, finished.
But out upbringing never ends you see. Even they’re grown up, you tell people, “This is not good, this should not be done”, and nobody feels bad about it, [inaudible] will feel we are parents and want to have parents! [Unsure]
But here the parents also have gone amuck, I must say. Because of this “no more limit”. Like Pat’s father used to drink and the mother said, “What’s wrong in drinking?”
Like once, Sadhana asked Me that the- [Laughter]
[Two young girls come to give flowers and a kiss to Shri Mataji. They do namaskar]
The parents are familiar that’s why, make confusion. And that’s how you people, don’t understand that we have moral values, moral values that our parents had [inaudible]. So, the moral and all that is [inaudible].
But let’s here re-establish a new dynasty as I said. [Shri Mataji smiles]