October 8th, 1982
Shri Mataji: How are you? Please, What’s your name?
Reporter: My name is David [Cooper?], I am (inaudible) Can You tell me why You have come along to Northampton here this week?
Shri Mataji: Why I have come here?
Reporter: Why You have come along here were you invited by a….
Shri Mataji: It’s a sort of a… kind of a message I have, that a discovery has been made now of a method.
Reporter: Is this the first time that You’ve come to Northampton?
Shri Mataji: No, I’ve come before also.
Reporter: And what sort of response did You get then?
Shri Mataji: Response was, I wouldn’t say very good. No newspaper didn’t come at all. Yesterday also there was no one, it’s very surprising.
Reporter: You found a lot of people were very skeptical, did You?
Shri Mataji: I don’t know what they were like, because no-, nobody came, you see.
Reporter: That was the Guild Hall as well?
Shri Mataji: No, Guildhall yesterday we had lots of people, yesterday. But as far as the newspapers were concerned, We met some people here. But most of them came to see Me, when I came here first. They were sort of a labor class people. They were suffering from all kinds of maladies like possessions and things, and one gentleman just got up and started walking all around the places and talking like … it was a bit funny.
Reporter: In fact, You were in Bedford last night, weren’t You?
Shri Mataji: Yes, I was there.
Reporter: And how did that go?
Shri Mataji: Very good, very well.
Reporter: It went very well. In the past, I understand, that You’ve, um, You’ve helped heal an awful lot of people?
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Reporter: Can You give me some examples of some of the more, extraordinary healings You’ve done?
Shri Mataji: Anything, you see, like cancer. Then, we can say, blood cancer specially. A Sahaja Yogini has cured one friend’s blood cancer. Then diabetes.
Reporter: In fact, I understand, on one occasion You had a blind woman cometo see you, is that right?
Shri Mataji: Yes, blindness — if the eyes are open.
Reporter: Which one was that exactly? What was happening?
Shri Mataji: That is due to a possession, on the backside, the optic lobe we have here. You see, if that gets possessed by a live entity, your eyes are open but there’s darkness, you can’t see anything. And if you know how to open that and get rid of the possession… And the deaf person hearing, yeah…
Reporter: You’ve actually cured deafness as well, have You?
Shri Mataji: Yes, I did. There in Geneva it happened.
Reporter: Do You — I mean, it’s very difficult for people to actually understand how it’s done. I mean they, you know, it all seems just a bit mystical and, you know …
Shri Mataji: Yeah. It is nothing mystical, I tell you, there’s nothing mystical. Like we see a flower becoming a fruit. We take it for granted, isn’t it? Do we find it mystical ? Because we see it every day. But there is something, some power that does that, doesn’t it? Supposing you become the owner of that power, say, or if you have that power within you. You can also do many things.
Reporter: But, nonetheless, I mean, if I have an illness I go to see a doctor, he gives me tablets or so on… I mean, to actually to come and see You and You say I’ve got the power within me to cure myself… I mean, how do you actually get this power?
Shri Mataji: You see, what happens: when you become realized, or we become — it’s called twice-born — then you become collectively conscious, you become. It is not that I just tell you and it’s a brain treatment or something, or brainwash, that I say, “All right, now you have become this and this.” You really become, that you start feeling them — they are centres on your fingertips.
Reporter: So you actually feel them?
Shri Mataji: On the fingertips. You can, everyone can feel it very clearly.
Reporter: So this is like a guide, this is the way to diagnose.
Shri Mataji: Diagnosis. You see, you are the doctor, you are the diagnosis, you could be patient also. And you are the medicine.
Reporter: So once you’ve diagnosed what’s wrong…
Shri Mataji: Then you should know how to cure a particular centre. For example, now, which is the Christ centre? It’s this one. These two are Christ centres, in the pituitary and pineal. Now what are the diseases you get? All the diseases of the eyes you get out of it. Others are possessions. You see, people are mentally depressed, this, that — all this is due to the problem of this centre. There could be ego problems also. People are egoistical, you see, and very bombastic, and they try to destroy others with their ego. All these problems can be solved if you can awaken Christ within you. Because it’s said that He died for our sins.
Reporter: And using this healing method You’ve got, that actually awakens powers [of healing]
Shri Mataji: Yes. You just have to say Lord’s prayer before Me and He awakens because I am connected with Him, you see. So when you say something to Me, that connection is just made, and that is awakened, and there is ego and superego in your head, which are sucked in, means your actions — that is your karmas — and your sins all are sucked in. Once they are sucked in, this portion opens up. When this opens up, you get the the Kundalini up. That is, it’s very simple, you know, because it’s all done. For example, now look at this. To look at this, looks very simple, but it might be quite complicated inside. And it has taken years to make it. So the whole thing has taken ages to make it. This human body has come out of amoeba to this stage; even from matter to this stage. All that is built within you. Not only that, but what is going to happen to you is also existing within you in your heart; the Spirit. Now, only thing, that last [ ] breakthrough has to take place. That is also built within you, that is sahaja — means built within you. It is born within you. Sahaja is “born within”. So it’s all within you. And just if somebody knows how to do the job, the one who could have capacity… Like the Mother Earth has the capacity to sprout the seed. We can’t do it otherwise, if you do grow, do anything, you can’t. It’s a living process. But the Mother… Mother Earth can help. You put it there and you get it. In the same way, it is supposing I have the capacity, I can do it. Supposing you get the light tomorrow, you can do it. You can enlighten another person. One enlightened person can enlighten another person but he has to be enlightened first of all.
Reporter: Do You find that, I mean, as You say, I mean, once people have seen You and discovered how it can work, they can spread the word?
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Reporter: But nonetheless You say You met a lot of skeptical people last time. Do You think that that is the basic problem I mean that… through this healing process You have could be much more widely used and sort of…
Shri Mataji: You see, but I’ve seen people who come for healing, just get satisfied at that point when they are healed up. They don’t go further. You see you must say that God also has common sense; that He would like to only heal people, normally, like we would like to only construct, improve, or repair those lamps which will give lights, isn’t it? So those who are not going to work it out; the interest is less. But still it works, I mean, it’s compassion, so it cures, people get cured, no doubt. But out of them I find very few really come to Sahaja Yoga, who come through healing. But those who have seeking of the Spirit they are a special category of people. They are extremely beautiful people and they are seeking. Maybe they are taking drugs, going to wrong gurus, whatever they are doing. That’s a different point. But they are seekers, basically they are seekers of the truth and they are the best people. And they are the ones who are meant for Sahaja Yoga, not the people who just want their body to be all right. What’s the use of having the body, what are you going to do with it? You see, this body might have a meaning. And those who are finding the meaning are the best helped. Of course, they get rid of all their maladies and everything that’s… as a by-product. But that’s the main thing, that’s important.
Reporter: I understand that Your husband, in fact, holds a very eminent position.
Shri Mataji: Yes, he is.
Reporter: Can You tell me a little bit about that?
Shri Mataji: He is elected as Secretary General.
Reporter: Of what exactly?
Shri Mataji: Of one international organization you have, a one agency you have in this country, called as International Maritime Organization, which has got 134 nations who have elected him. And that’s how we are here.
Reporter: Do You find… I mean, his work must be so completely different to Yours.
Shri Mataji: No, it’s quite just the same, I feel, because My work only works out how I meet people, isn’t it? And when I meet the people, I find they like My work. I help his people also sometimes, you can say, for something wrong with them. But it never collides with My work at all, I find, because you are so… you become so loving and affectionate and so tolerant that you just don’t feel anything else. It’s very nice to meet new people because… Because of him I’ve gone to many communist countries, I visited China and visited Russia… All these places I could not have visited.
Reporter: I think, um… I mean, You must have a great deal of difficulty convincing people that You are a genuine, bona fide person, You know, it’s a little bit dangerous. Do You find that there is, um, problems with people who are extreme, sort of extreme people who are… ?
Shri Mataji: You see, it depends on what country you are. Say, in India it’s not difficult at all, because they understand this, They know, they have had an education on this, that the one who awakens the Kundalini is the real person. You see, they can see the rising of the Kundalini, they can see the pulsation of the Kundalini, they can feel the pulsation here. It’s all told them, so they know about it. I don’t have to work out with them. But if otherwise the… most of the seekers in other countries also have come to right conclusions, because they have had a very bad time. So they have come to right conclusions, I mean it’s not so difficult. But of course, you know, that if there’s too much mental projection, then rather difficult. But it doesn’t matter.
Reporter: Are there fakes in this country?
Shri Mataji: So many. Most of them are.
Reporter: I mean, they must be Your biggest headache, I should think, maybe.
Shri Mataji: They are not only Mine but of all the seekers. And that’s very true. They really ruin seekers. I’ve known people, they make money, put these people out of jobs, out of their lives, make them abnormal, sick like cabbages, they take away… the children are ruined…it’s horrible. Some of them get epilepsy, some of them get cancer… all kinds of diseases. Some people become blind. They all punish them-
Reporter: You don’t in fact charge anything, do You?
Shri Mataji: No no no. No no.
Reporter: Then how is, Your trips round the country, to different countries and around Britain and so on, how are they actually funded then?
Shri Mataji: You see, it is mostly funded by My husband. Mostly he’s a generous man.
Reporter: That’s lucky, isn’t it!
Shri Mataji: He’s generous. Otherwise also I have My some income of My own.
Reporter: How much would You estimate that You spend trying to spread the word, a year?
Shri Mataji: Well, I can’t say that, I’m not good at accounting, but I would say that when I travel, for example, supposing I go to any other country, sometimes Sahaja Yogis think that I should not pay for their salvation, you see. So out of their self-respect they pay My traveling sometimes, but they don’t pay Me but to the travel agency or something they, buy tickets for Me at the most, that’s all. But not much, it’s not much per year.
Reporter: Where have You traveled this year?
Shri Mataji: Now, this year, let’s start. When… where did I go, can you…? Now, I came from America… Geneva, Austria, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, France, Germany… Russia, I went to Russia, Uzbekistan.
Reporter: And this is all this year, is it?
Shri Mataji: Yes, this year, yes…
Reporter: You must be worn out.
Shri Mataji: Do I look that? Now I’m sixty. I’m sixty now.
Shri Mataji: Yes, I’m sixty years of age, really.
Reporter: You don’t look sixty years old at all.
Reporter: How did it all start for You then, I mean, right at the beginning? Well, say, I mean, most people know very little about this sort of thing, me included. But how did that actually all start in the beginning for You?
Shri Mataji: You see, actually I was aware of it from My very childhood, as you are aware, say, for example, you are aware you are a human being. In the same way I was aware. I was absolutely aware of Me, and My mission, and what I… why I’m here, what I am. Everything I was aware of from My very childhood. But I was working out how to do it in en masse happening. It would be for the masses. My father himself was a realized soul and he was a member of the Parliament and Assembly in those days, and he was the only Indian to be elected. Indian Christian to be elected, I should say. My brother also is a Minister of… what is he Minister of? Communications and something else.
Reporter: So, I mean, I suppose in India, I mean, that it’s not as difficult to actually, um … to make people understand. It’s only when You start traveling abroad?
Shri Mataji: Oh, Indians understand much better.
Reporter: That’s what I was saying.
Shri Mataji: But abroad is the problem. Because, you see, they… they are naive, they don’t know. You see, Christ’s life was only for four years. He couldn’t tell them much about it; about the Holy Ghost. It’s all a mystery, you see. The Christianity could not give that, because they never went into the search of it, you see, the deeper of it. Just reading Bible, telling some sort of an interpretation doesn’t give you anything. So the second birth part of it they didn’t work out. And that’s why I find people got lost more, because of these gurus coming, giving them some ideas, this, that… And they sort of are hypnotized also to a great extent. All these people are hypnotized, brainwashed, then they, some of them went into drugs. You see, so many things, they are all self-destroying. That’s how I found people very much confused, very much confused. Of course, the people in India say, for example, of this entrepreneur, He knows I am a saint. So he treats Me like a saint, it’s a very big thing, and then he’ll come to receive Me and… that even the Prime Minister of India, Mr. Lal Bahadur Shastri, My husband was his secretary, but he used to come and see Me often, in the car, you see. So in India it’s a… saint is higher than all kings and everyone put together, you see. So they know how to respect a saint, even for popularity.
Reporter: Do You find that, I mean… to call Yourself a saint… do You find that the people in England…
Shri Mataji: They are not so much.
Reporter: You know, they’re not…they’re not quite as keen…
Shri Mataji: [unclear] the saints, I think. No, they care more for politicians.
Reporter: That’s right, that’s right. I mean, do You find, You know, sort of… I mean, You are little bit insulted by them sometimes?
Shri Mataji: Aah, it’s all right.
Reporter: I mean, You firmly believe in what You do, obviously, and it must seem incredible to You when other people [ignore?] it.
Shri Mataji: It’s all right. You see, after all they are children, they don’t understand. That’s all I can say. Because they are still children in spiritual life, you see. But they are not going to crucify Me this time, isn’t it? So it’s all right.
Reporter: Now, when You make these trips to towns like Northampton and so on, You got several people with You. Does this team come with You every time?
Shri Mataji: No, they are from this place, some of them are now and some of them are there also. Of course all the others they have come from Australia. And we have an ashram in South London. So they are staying there, so they just came around here. And these two are from – he’s working in London, he is also there. And these three gentlemen are from Bedford. He is from Bristol.
Reporter: Oh I see.
Shri Mataji: But there is nothing like that, is that a team or anything. Anybody who feels like can come around if they’re free, because…
Reporter: So anyone who is available for You, to help…
Shri Mataji: Yes, they can just to help Me, because if it’s a big group and all that, so they can help Me.
Reporter: I see, all right, I see. Well, thanks very much for Your time.
Shri Mataji: Thank you very much. But I think you should ask one more question if you can, say, about Kundalini, because those who have read about Kundalini would be interested to know. Is that, is said that, you see, lots of books have been written about Kundalini, that it’s very dangerous, it is very (this thing?), and all that. But it is not at all. You see, thousands of people I’ve given realization. Thousands. It has never put anybody into danger at all. But those who are naïve, those who are unholy persons, who have no idea of a spiritual life, you see, if they try tricks, you see, like sex, you see, through sex and all that nonsense, then it feels insulted, and then there are problems.
Reporter: How can it be dangerous then?
Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon?
Reporter: How, You said, it can be dangerous if it’s not used properly?
Shri Mataji: You see, like we could say that if I don’t know this instrument and I put My hand into something, I may get a burning, but it doesn’t mean this is dangerous, that is because I don’t know how to work it…
Reporter: That is basic, I mean, if you don’t understand it’s like putting your finger in an electric light socket…
Shri Mataji: That’s what, you see. That’s like that, you see. But they try to do it and then they try to write books about it. It’s something surprising, isn’t it? I haven’t written any book so far.
Reporter: So, that’s obviously, You know, sort of the thing you’ve got to try and make clear to people.
Shri Mataji: Yes, you have to. And then, you see, when you get realization, you automatically become righteous, I don’t have to tell you “Become righteous.” Because the religion is enlightened within you. You automatically become. I don’t tell you that “You don’t drink,” you just don’t drink, because you don’t enjoy it any more. You don’t smoke, because you just don’t enjoy it; don’t take drugs. Just you just don’t do it because it’s all enlightened, because a new priority has come. Like if there’s light in this room, suddenly you start seeing where’s the position of everything, and you know, if you walk this way, you’ll be hit. In the same way, enlightenment means that automatically you become righteous.
Reporter: What is Your success rate in full for healing people?
Shri Mataji: What is?…
Reporter: What is Your success rate for healing people who come to see You?
Shri Mataji: Success?
Reporter: Successful or have helped them.
Reporter: How many times do You actually heal people compared to the number of people who come to see You?
Shri Mataji: Oh, some people just come, for ten minutes is sufficient. Our president Sanjiva Reddy, the first president, he was coming from England… America. His operation had failed, he was just in a very bad shape. I just went to see him and he didn’t know I was Mataji, but he knew Me as Mrs. Shrivastav. And suddenly our High Commissioner told him, “This is Mataji Nirmala Devi.” So his wife said, “I’ve heard You have cured so many people, so just cure my husband.” I put My hand only for ten minutes, you’ll be surprised. He was just, then — he got it.
Reporter: This can happen every time when You get somebody come to see You?
Shri Mataji: Not always. Some people take more time, some people take less time. It depends on if they are complicated, you see, they take more time, some of them do. You see, for example, supposing I have to break through, now. And if you are just there, you will out.
Reporter: Are there some people You just simply can’t heal?
Shri Mataji: Some people… I don’t know, but, you see… I don’t know, I don’t remember of someone who came to Me and was not healed so far. Some might have been, I don’t know. But those who came, you see, assiduously — I don’t think, isn’t it? As far as I remember, I should say.
Reporter: Yeah, You’ve done quite a lot.
Shri Mataji: You see, there are so many I have, it has happened, even these people are healing, you see. So there’s no end to it. Imagine, one person is Me, I can remember for Myself, but there are so many they are healing, and I just forget about it, I just don’t remember. Once I had gone to a program, I was just sitting. One gentleman came, he just touched My feet. I said, “Who are you?” He said, “You forgot me?” I said, “Why?” I said, “I’m sorry.” He said, “I’m the father of such and such girl, whom You cured in two minutes time, who was going to die, and this and that in the hospital.” I said, “Really?” I tried to remember, I said, “Who was this?” you see. Then with very great difficulty I remembered, because it was so quick. I had gone to see somebody else and on My way back he caught hold of Me. And there she was. She was cured in such a quick manner that I’d forgotten all about it.
Reporter: Really? Well, I suppose, the proof is in the pudding, isn’t it?
Shri Mataji: Yes. And moreover, what I’m saying it is not important. What is important is to become Spirit. Healing is not important. You see, because everyone has to die in any case, isn’t it? What is important that you have to become the Spirit. That is. And then you heal others. Not only yourself, you can heal yourself and heal others also.
Reporter: All right, very good… Well, as I say, thank You, thank You for Your time.
Shri Mataji: Many incurable diseases you can put, but that’s not the main job, I think.
Reporter: Yes. I think that’s probably the thing that a lot of people are most interested in.
Shri Mataji: I agree, yes.
Yogi: Excuse me, Mother. When you asked [unclear] in Paris, and Mother took it very well, but they described Her as a man.
Shri Mataji: What is she…
Reporter: I think you are speaking to the wrong person.
Yogi: I’m getting confused.
Shri Mataji: What is it? What is it?
Shri Mataji: Yeah.
Reporter: This is in fact…
Shri Mataji: Ah, I remember that. And he also said I’m a He, you see, put My photograph. And they referred to Me as a He, you see, [unclear],
Reporter: In fact, this would be the first article we’ve ever run on You, so…. (Yogi apologizing)
Shri Mataji: This is [unclear].
Reporter: That’s all right, that’s all right. It often happens, actually.
Shri Mataji: It happens. I’ve seen, there have been so many things – like Me, also, as you said, I am just… sometimes I don’t remember all…
Reporter: That’s right.
Shri Mataji: All right. So…
Reporter: Can I take just two more pictures?
Shri Mataji: Yes yes, please, please go ahead.
PHOTOGRAPHER: Actually, if You could close Your hands, so… You know, which is normally…do you mind if I move this?
Shri Mataji: As you say.
Reporter: Sometimes a problem.
Shri Mataji: Our style is like this. Is this all right?
Shri Mataji: You can ask to put their hands towards My photograph also. My photograph has vibrations. You see, they have got realization from My photograph. Yes, really, they have been cured from My photograph.
Reporter: That’s incredible, isn’t it?
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s it, That’s what I was speaking, it’s going to help, Sahaj is going to help all of them.
Reporter: So the more of them we get, a thousand more pictures we have…
Shri Mataji: Yes, the pictures. These people (unclear) something like [unclear] photograph. Not only as photograph but just cure people, we have seen. And first time I went to Australia, there was big [unclear] What happened, that a relation of a very big man in that industry was [unclear]. And a lady, one of the Sahaja Yoginis, so she said that, “I can’t [unclear]so let’s put a photograph” and [unclear]. Not only that, not only that, but the patient [unclear, was perfectly all right?] And that’s how they gave it and that’s how the photograph [works out? unclear]. One of them, you see, is another journalist who is a realized soul.
Reporter: Oh I see. It’s the question of, You know, making people see, isn’t it starting I suppose once….
Shri Mataji: I think, I think so. Otherwise [unclear].
Shri Mataji: [unclear] responsibility [unclear] for everyone.
Shri Mataji: Isn’t it? After all, newspaper should give some good news also. May God bless you. [unclear]. You are [unclear]. It’s all right. All right. It was very beautiful. We can give this address. Will you please? And you tell them about [unclear]. Tell them about [unclear]. [Can you … unclear] ? [unclear Douglas is genius?]. I want [unclear] anyway, he wants to [unclear]. He’s a genius. He’s a genius. It’s the truth. He got into speed and I also got to got into speed with him, I said, “Let Me talk fast.” All right? Now, thank you for the cameraman. “This team follows You”, he said come.