1982-1028 H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, Self-realization at Public Program Day 2 in New York, USA
Introduction by Mr Patrick Radican:
We have with us a very distinguished member of Sahaja Yoga Dr Rustom Burjorjee. Dr Rustom, we call him and he’s, he’s going to introduce Mother tonight. Rustom is a psychiatrist, he’s trained at Oxford and Cambridge; he’s practised in England, Germany and in India. He’s originally from India and now lives in England. And, he’s one of many scientists, people with scientific knowledge and a scientific approach who have come to Sahaja with an open mind and discovered that it has the scientific truths in it. He is joined by people who are artists and who have come and found that Sahaja has artistic truths in it. And, by people who were politicians, politically interested and have found that Sahaja has political truths in it. So, Rustom is here now to talk about Sahaja from a scientific point of view and to introduce Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi. Rustom…
Dr Rustom: (Chaitanya & Collectivity):
Hello, I don’t think there are many people actually who need me to introduce Shri Mataji to them this evening, so, in fact, there are only a very few who don’t know much about it already. But for those, so, I don’t know that I may not, in fact, address myself to those who may know something about it already.
You see, since time immemorial, I think Sahaj Yogis, because I think any Yogi who has the salt of Sahaj, meaning Spontaneous, have been seeking to find out their own meaning, isn’t it? To find their own self and people have been doing all sorts of things to achieve this. Some become an artist and hope through their art they can achieve it. Some have tried to delve into the unconscious to find it there. Some have thought that they can achieve it by hanging from mountain tops, some have thought they could achieve it by doing various physical exercises like standing on their heads, some have gone to the desert to contemplate and some have sought to achieve it in life itself.
So is it that there have been people since time immemorial, who have been chasing around the world trying to achieve something and that something is to find their own end, their own meaning. Now, if one pauses to contemplate for a moment one must recognize that to find one’s own meaning, one has to find one’s own meaning in relation to the whole. Because if one pauses to contemplate and if one acknowledges the presence of something that is the Divine, then one must acknowledge that He did not create the whole without creating some meaningful relationship between the parts of the whole.
So, in a sense, you can only find your true meaning in the collective. You see, the essence of this whole universe is that it is parts of the same being. If one pauses to meditate or contemplate or question the notion even for a moment, one would see the impossibility of there being anything else but that Being or the impossibility of Him or Her making the parts of it, dissonant with each other.
So, you have to find your end in a collective way. Now, how are we going to do that? When you consider how huge the universe is, you take this room alone, which is a small fraction of the macrocosm, how many of you can form a meaningful relationship with every single member of this audience, which fulfils all the possibilities that are contained within the existences of each individual?
So, you can see what a great task it is to be a part integrated into the whole. So, how’re you going to do this? Well, one thing that you can exclude to begin with, that you can do this consciously or through any rational movement of your ego. The human mind does not contain the capacity to contain or manipulate the quantity of information necessary to achieve this. To do this, you have to transcend your ego and go to a state of awareness where all things are one and all things are possible.
Now, you see, so you have to become one at the level which is beyond the mental where you plunge into the depths of the Unconscious itself. Now, if you pause to consider what I’ve said, you will see what I’ve said, I’ve led you logically to this position, whether you’re a Sahaj Yogi or not a Sahaj Yogi. You have to know that to find yourself you have to transcend the mental levels because only by doing that, you can transcend the individual level of your existence.
Now, how’re you going to do this? Now, this is the beauty of the Divine Plan for the universe, it’s all been prepared for us. You see, before we reached the collective phase when we’re all in our own individual state of existence, there was placed in us a residual power called the Kundalini, which sits at the base of the spine and in this power was contained all the powers of the divine. It was a reflection of that Primordial Power which created the universe. You can see it there, the coil of red. (referring to the Subtle System chart behind him) Now, within the heart was placed the Spirit where this flame is and that Spirit was also waiting for the moment of awakening.
Now, you see, before human beings could, as it were, be plugged into the collective, they had to be evolved through stages so that their awareness, their experiences, their chakras themselves, the subtle structure of their body, could contain and experience the collective whole. So, this is the meaning of the individual evolution up to the point where one becomes collective.
Now, 2000 years ago, it was not that easy to become collective because most individuals were not yet evolved enough to achieve that state. Nowadays, it is much, much easier and that is why Shri Mataji and other great people have taken their incarnation to bring this about. Now, this becoming Collective has got to be a fact! You see, I’m standing here talking to you and you are sitting and you are listening to me and I hope that I’m preparing the ground for this to actually happen. The essence of it is ‘happening’, is ‘becoming’.
So in Sahaja Yoga, we offer you the experience. We don’t really offer you much in the way of lectures, as you will discover. Now, how do you become that? Well, the Kundalini, from what you have heard me say is a subtle thing, it’s not something gross that you can ever dissect an individual and find it. It is the, it is subtle energy. I don’t know how many of you know what I mean by subtle but beneath the whole physical structure of this universe lies subtle cosmic forces, which cause things to happen. Within your own body, is a subtle body, a subtle skeleton, which builds and causes the molecules of the gross body to so move as to reflect it. Now, the Kundalini is the governor of this whole subtle system. Governor, rather better not say governor, let us not say governor but the engineer of the whole subtle system. The governor is Spirit in the heart whose power the Kundalini is.
Now, those individuals who are Realized souls have their subtle body awakened. It is active you see, the engine which has been built with such care now starts working and so they throw out a form of energy which you can call Vibrations, which permeates the air all around them and which, activates the same engine in those, in other individuals who are ready for it.
Now, these Vibrations are something very great. Unfortunately, in English, I have to call them Vibrations because we don’t have any word that is subtle enough to describe them. In Sanskrit, they are known as Chai-ta-nya, that means ‘those things which are derived from awareness, consciousness’ – Chitta in Sanskrit means ‘awareness’, chaitan, chai-ta, which is ‘derived from awareness’ and chai-ta-nya is ‘that thing that moves which is derived from awareness’. So it is known as Chaitanya!
Now, if you are ready to receive awakening of the Kundalini, the Chaitanya, which my self or any other Realised soul, especially Shri Mataji emits, will hit the Kundalini in you and will inform Her, that right, She may now arise. Ok? Now She will decide if She wants to rise or not usually. She may not agree with us that the time right. If She doesn’t, then She just carries on sleeping until you are ready to get your Realisation.
But when She decides to arise, which She does quite a lot of the time, She ascends with great force up the Central canal of your spine to eventually break here (indicating the Fontanelle on Subtle Chart) in Sahasrara Chakra and as She does that, the Spirit leaves its place in the Heart to combine with Kundalini. And, the best way to describe it is, the Kundalini is like the gas, which is suddenly turned on in a gas cooker but the Spirit is that sparking flame, which brings it alive. So at that moment, the whole of your material existence is illuminated because it is combined with the Spirit. Now, those of you who understand the Spirit will understand that it is that Witnessing aspect of the Divine, which is beyond all qualities, beyond all actions, beyond all experiencing. It is the Atman and it is, I think it is indescribable. The great saints in India like Adi Shankaracharya so many times sought to describe it by saying: it is not this, not this; nor is it this, nor is it this, nor, is it this but what it is, is ‘that’. You see, in Sanskrit, they say: tat-twam-asi, that-you-are; or,sat-chit-anada, is that which is that bliss or rather to be one with it in that place of bliss, which is derived from the awareness of being ‘that’. So you see, it is only described in those terms.
Now you can imagine when the, when this Spirit combines with your physical body and your unenlightened awareness, that it enlightens everything it touches. The whole of your existence becomes enlightened and not just your existence but all that is around you because you are illuminated. That means, if you are illuminated when you sit on a chair or carpet, that carpet, will pick up the, your illuminated vibrations, that Chaitanya and store it and radiate it to eternity. That is why, in the past, the bodies of great saints were always buried because they gave out Chaitanya if they were Realized, souls. The Mohammedans used to do this in India where people were always burned, the saints were always buried because their bodies gave off Chaitanya. Now, so, this is something very great if you can achieve it.
Now, how do you know whether you have achieved it? There are all sorts of experiences which accompany the awakening of the Kundalini but perhaps the most important thing is that you should feel a cool wind, preferably on your hands but you may not but you may feel it on your feet or you may feel it on the crown of your head. You see, why you may not feel it in your hands is that the hands are controlled by the fifth chakra, known as the Vishuddhi.
Now, Vishuddhi means, Vishud, in Sanskrit means ‘that which is extremely pure’. Now, if your Vishuddhi Chakra is not extremely pure it will not fully open and you will not feel. Now, what are the things that will not allow you to feel: it is smoke for one thing, if you shout or abusive with the power, the gift of language, if you habitually take impure things into your throat you see, your Vishuddhi Chakra will suffer and you will not feel the Chaitanya but you will emit Chaitanya, and those who are around you will feel it.
So, you see it is not just a question of saying right, you are Realized, it has to be proved and it has to be proved that you emit Chaitanya and all the Realized souls around you agree, yes, this chap emits Chaitanya and secondly, that you should, if possible, feel it for yourself. Now, that’s not so important but it’s much more important what the others think because in the beginning, you see, you may not be that sensitive.
So now, once you’ve achieved Chaitanya, it is as if the key has been turned, the door has been opened and you may have taken one step into the room but you do not yet know the room. So the next stage is to develop your Realization. Now, how do you do that? Well, the force that underlies the whole of creation is Chaitanya and you go to those places which give off Chaitanya. That was why the great saints of the past who were Realized souls sat in places they knew, they could feel from the coolness of a place you see. Let us say I am a realized soul, right, if I go to places, you see I have travelled around India a lot. Every so often you receive this tremendous blast of cool wind you see and you say there’s something around here and you go an investigate you see, and you usually find something that is sacred. Equally, you can go to places that are reputed to be sacred and you feel quite uncomfortable there. There’s no Chaitanya around.
So you see, life’s like that, you discover what’s correct and what isn’t. So you try and stay in those places, which are very much in the way of Vibrations are around. But there’s nothing like giving you Vibrations like another Realised soul. So the more of you there are clubbed together the more in the way of Vibrations you’re going to get. That is very clever of the Divine because the Divine, having created the Human Beings, knows they can be individualistic and egotistical and once you got Realization the ideal thing would be for you to rush off to a mountain top and keep it all to yourself you see, which is what they used to do in the past! But that’s no good. The Divine is not interested in one or two people. The Divine is collective so has made sure that the best way for you to progress is by being with other people. So then, assuming that you can’t go to the mountains or something, you have to stay in New York, how are you going to get it and improve? Well, you meditate daily.
Now, you see, the Chaitanya in a Realized soul is transmitted to every aspect of itself. So, if you were to take a photograph of me for instance, my photograph would give off Chaitanya and the more highly Realized I was, the more Chaitanya I would give off. Now you take Shri Mataji Herself, who is a being of a totally another level of existence then Her photograph also gives off Chaitanya. So the best thing to do is use that as a source of Chaitanya, so you take it and place it much as we have placed it here, put a candle in front of it, some flowers, some water, some fruit preferably, and you sit down to meditate. Now, what happens there is that the photograph gives off Chaitanya. This Chaitanya awakens your Kundalini System. As the Kundalini System vibrates, any impurities that are contained in it are shaken loose, very gently. These come out through the top of your head, through the Sahasrara and they get either burnt in the candle, that’s why it’s so important, or they get dissolved in the water, which should be changed regularly. Now, you see, it’s a purifying process.
Now if you sit in front of Shri Mataji’s photograph alone you will get some vibrations no doubt but not that much. If you sit in front of it with five or six others who are also Realized souls or who have been proved to be Realized, then you’ll get much more in the way of Chaitanya because, see Her vibrations, let us say we are in this room now, the vibrations from that photograph are striking every individual and setting up chain reactions in them so they are giving off more Chaitanya. So the whole thing just escalates and it’s a, it’s quite a tremendous thing to be in meditation with many other Realized souls. So, the main thing to do is to try and stay with each other as much as possible.
But, now, let me talk to you about another aspect of collectivity you see and that is that you cannot be truly collective unless you are detached. Now, what does this mean? You see, if you are a collective Human Being, you have a job to do in the whole universe not only in one small bit. So you have to keep circulating around you see doing your job much as the sap in a tree circulates, much as the blood in your circulates. You see, wherever is your job, you have to go there. Now if you get attached to any one individual or any one place then you will stick there, much like the blood clinging to one organ to the detriment of the rest of the body. It does not work! So you see, true collectivity means not being attached to any individual even if you happen to be married or have children but being attached to the whole. So you see you have to gain detachment. You have to gain the capacity to witness. It does not mean that you neglect your duties like you cannot leave your wife and run off and things like that because she needs to survive. And that is what you need to do. Now Shri Mataji is here… you can get the experience yourself.
Shri Mataji arrives and settles in.
Shri Mataji (@22.39): (Known and Unknown Awareness)
Yesterday I told you about the Known and the Unknown Awareness that we have. Firstly, the awareness – (can you hear Me all of you or should I stand up? I’ll stand up. It will be better because this is not adjusted, tapping the mic.) – left side or the right side, by going to the left side, you develop your attention, aware of the past, of the Subconscious and beyond the Subconscious is the Collective Subconscious. On the right-hand side as I told you is the Supraconscious and the Collective Supraconscious. If we do not know what is unknown, is not divine, we can be quite confused about it. Whatever is unknown to us suddenly can become divine to us. For example, now, somebody says that I’ll get you from the air say a diamond. So immediately you will feel it is coming from God directly or he might even give you a Swiss made a watch.
Now you must know that God doesn’t deal in all these things. You must use your common sense. You see if somebody thinks that these things are coming from God for sure you must understand that at least there’s something wrong with you or something wrong with God to give you these worthless, useless things, which you can go and purchase in the market. What is the interest of God to give you diamonds and pearls, which are of no value to you, that you can always get it, and those who have got it also are not happy people? Those who have got it, if you go and see them are having headaches because of all these possessions. They don’t know what to do with it.
Now under these circumstances now how do we know what do we have to have from the Divine? Some people think that if you get some powers then you become Divine. Now for them power is if you can mentally control somebody then it is powerful. If you project your mind and try to control somebody then many people believe that it is power. It is not power. It is a kind of your mental projection, which has taken you to the right-hand side where you have developed a contact with the Supraconscious, which is rendering this helpfulness to you through spirits and you are arranging all these things through the help of a spirit. So it is not your power. All such people who use such mental power die a horrible death; lead a horrible life.
So the highest thing for any seeker should be, who’s a real seeker, not an unreal one, for the real seeker should be that he should find himself, his own Spirit. He must know himself. That is the main thing. But normally for people it is more alluring, more attractive to go to things, which are of immediate relief and immediate help, like somebody told me that he went to one guru and he found that he suddenly became very peaceful and he thought that this guru must be a very great person to give him that experience. But actually, it is not so. Just to get suddenly blissful without understanding anything about it is a risky game. Somebody has switched off your mind and who is that person? How your mind is suddenly switched off? What has happened? You have no idea as to who has achieved it and such things can be extremely dangerous.
So, first of all, we must know that whatever we are doing, it should be knowledgeable. Everything can be done in a very dynamic way but you can lose all of them if you do not stick onto your Spirit because these are the blessings of the Spirit and, as soon as the Spirit goes out of your attention you become again, the same darkness prevails upon you and you become again the same blind person. So it is essential that the time till you are established, try to stick onto Sahaja Yoga.
It’s been the work of ancient times that one has been able to achieve this mastery that people can get Realization. I would say that never en-masse Realization was a phenomena. Never people got en-masse Realisation. This is the first time that you can see people getting en-masse Realization, especially in India where the people are simple, their seeking is true, they are truthful, where they are very genuine, thousands of people get Realization and they never fall back. Of course in the villages! But, if you go to cities of India it’s rather slow! But if you come to places like say London it’s even worse. And then if you come to a place like New York I don’t know what degree to be used.
So, I tell you, I warn you that you people are complicated, conditioned and attacked! America has been attacked as I told you since very, very long time by the Satanic forces because you are great saints, born in this country, no doubt, but that is not sufficient! If your seeking is not truthful, honest for the pure spiritual experience, all other nonsensical things are not going to help you.
For example, sitting down, dogmas to discuss, itself is against Me! It’s something, another world we have to get into. The knowledge of Sahaja Yoga, is the Knowledge of your Roots, not of your shoots which you can do with your science! To go to your roots, you have to become subtler. You cannot go to your roots unless and until you become subtler and that’s why you have to get your Realization to understand the knowledge of Divine Laws. Unless and until you become subtler you cannot understand. If I talk to you, this happens, that happens, it’s just a story to you but it is so tremendous that you can’t understand to what extent this Great Divine Power of Love of God is working. It’s only when you enter into that you are amazed. Like one of my disciples says, now the miracle has lost its value in Sahaja Yoga. It’s so tremendous, the blessings are so tremendous, and the happenings are so miraculous that it is only through entering into that realm one can enjoy it.
For example, recently a miracle happened in London, as they say, I don’t know much, they published it in the newspaper, about Me, that a boy who was going by a motorbike and he fell down somewhere very badly and after some time he got up, and people went there and rescued him back, took him to the hospital. And, the doctor said he’s perfectly all right. Nothing wrong with him except for the spine, end of the spine he had a little pain. So they said, how is it that, with such a fall, you were not hurt at all, what happened? He said, no, I was very badly hurt but an Indian lady came from Her car and She cured me. So they asked him, what time was the accident? It was at nine o’clock when I was giving a lecture like this. There must be at least 600 people whom I was talking to. And when he, he didn’t know who the Indian lady was. After two days he saw My photograph in the newspaper and he went to the surgeon and told him that this is the lady who cured me. And then they published it in the newspaper. Before that, they telephoned to us, not to Me of course, to one of our disciples, and asked him, what is this phenomena? Is it true that this can happen? They said that this has happened many times in India and he gave two, three examples of this miraculous happening that Mother appears at a place where She is not. And She works out and people see Her working it out, it’s a fact.
So, they are going to bring that boy and all that and there’s a big drama going on. Whatever it is! This is nothing to Me. To Me, it is nothing a surprise or a miracle. It’s nothing! Because, all this universe, everything is controlled by this Divine Power. As yesterday we saw that picture, Star Wars? (Yogi confirms: it’s Star Wars) Star Wars. In that, they call it The Force you see. It is coming through the Unconscious to people that this Force is binding the whole world and this Force is within you! This Kundalini is that Force. You have to just raise it so that you get connected to the Spirit and this Force, which is All-Pervading, which may look very abstract now, very vague but once you become, it’s very simple.
And, so many times it has happened, things like that. The other day only, before just coming, about four o’clock or five o’clock in the morning, a phone call came from Vienna. One of My disciple’s wife was very sick because she has a little problem still with her. And, she was admitted in the hospital and the doctor said she’s going to have a delivery of a very premature child, and the child must not be delivered now. And, they were saying, it’s impossible we don’t know how to control it. So, he telephoned to Me and then he went back to his wife. So it must have been about half an hour it’d taken him to go back. And, the doctors were surprised! They said the whole contractions have stopped! It’s miraculous. We don’t know how it has happened. It has happened in so many cases like this. Now, I am sitting down in London, he’s in Vienna. In a second, in a split of a second, things work out. It’s such a dynamic force. But, you must touch it. You must harness it because you are the carriers of that. You can handle it. It is there. Believe Me, it is there. You can work it out.
I’ll give you another example of that is when I was in London, My husband knew the President of India, Sanjiva Reddy (Neelam Sanjiva Reddy, 6th President of India) who was very sick and had gone to America for an operation for cancer of the lungs and it was a failure and he was going back to his country to die. He could not sleep. They tried to give him injections and all that and he was suffering very much and he knew he was going to die. They had made all preparations for his death in India. Luckily I happened to go to see him with My husband. I didn’t, I never tell them that I’m such and such, but I have another name also as Mrs and another name as Mataji Nirmala Devi. So the Ambassador, the High Commissioner, he’s a very bureaucratic man, I don’t know why but he told the President’s wife that She’s Mataji Nirmala Devi also. So the President’s wife had heard My name, so She came to Me and she said, Mother please cure my husband. You will be surprised. I touched this man only for ten minutes but he was a very good person I must say. In ten minutes he felt so relaxed, and he said now I’m feeling sleepy. I said to him, go into Yoga Nidra and he slept off. The doctors who were travelling with him were amazed how could I make him sleep in ten minutes. In ten minutes how did I make him sleep? But when he got down from the plane, they had brought ambulances, this thing, that thing at the airport, so many people with handkerchiefs to cry and weep and this fellow walked down and, when he went for a tour just after that.
When I went there, he was, of course, you know in India, a saint is very respected, whether you are a President or anything, so, will you sit down, till I told him, you please sit down, I’m your citizen, he said, No, Mother, I can’t sit down. But then he sat down and he told me that not that I’m cured but even the line of my operation you cannot see. In ten minutes he got it. It’s a fact. I’m telling you the truth. You can write to him and find out.
So, all these miraculous things can happen because the All-Pervading Power starts flowing through you. But, not the way people talk of curing, that at five o’clock I will enter into the body and all that nonsense. It is the power that is within you is released and once that power is released, you get mental, emotional, physical and also spiritual ascent, and fulfilment and satisfaction. All these things can happen to you also. Like, we have a Sahaja Yogini, I told you yesterday, in New York, who came from London to establish Sahaja Yoga here though she is very disappointed with New York people, extremely disappointed and she’s thinking of giving up. But she’s the one who cured an Indian boy in a hospital, which is a record, who was dying of leukaemia and they had declared, of course, doctors normally declare that he is going to die within eight days time and, she cured this boy without any difficulty.
But still people who come to Me only for curing, all right, may get cured, all right, doesn’t matter, but you must think that God also is not so much bothered about people who just want to have good health or just want to have something of a very material level or a gross level. He’s only interested in people who are first class people with the diamond of their spirit to be shining. He’s willing to do everything that is possible to make that diamond shine. It’s all there. It’s all your own. Nobody is obliging you. It’s your own, to get yourself. But people can’t believe. They think you must pay for it, you must do something about it, they can’t believe it that after all they are made Human Beings, not to be wasted like this.
Today I was walking in the streets in New York and I found 50% of people were alcoholics, mad, lunatics, all wasted people walking on the street. I was amazed! What’s happening to this country? Or, some must be busy with racing or gambling or in the pubs and, then we saw very dirty women standing and misbehaving. Is this the way Human Beings are going to deal with that?
These are the centres we have got within ourselves. Now, as it is, I’ve come for a short time and just, I wanted to come just for a day but they said we would like to have a public program and you see the public that is here, is, surprisingly that it’s a program which was arranged so much in a hurry. I hope all of you will get your realization and stick onto it, understand about these powers. These are the centres within you! All these centres have got the power to emit. Try to understand it this time. Try to work it out. All this education is for free, you don’t have to pay for it; you have to just be a little patient with yourself, give little time to do this.
The other day a radio-man asked me a question, he said, Mother, how will you solve the problem of our unemployment? I said, think, why you are unemployed? Because your forefathers have done all the job! No more bridges to be done. We already have lots of bridges for New York and, and the overheads going, all these tubes are sufficiently done and all your trains have been done. So there’s nothing left and that’s why they’re going amuck you know. Nothing to be done! Now, what to do? We’ve done this. We’ve done that. Now, what to do? Like, in Gulliver’s Travels, till there was the man who came to Gulliver as a boon and he was supposed to do whatever Gulliver tells him. So Gulliver told him, all right, you make a palace for me. He made a palace. You furnish it. He furnished it. Then he said, all right, you make a garden, he made a garden; you make a conveyance for me, he made everything. They said what next? He said, he got frightened, he said, now what to do? I’ve told him everything, now nothing is left. Now, what to do? He said, all right, now you do one thing and is to climb over this tree and come down, till I tell you to stop, you go on doing it. He ran away from that place. That is what it is, this mind is. It has nothing to do now. You are unemployed because there’s nothing to do.
In London now I’ve seen people, doctors, very qualified people, they are successfully unemployed. They cannot get employment because there’s nothing to be done. It’s all been done but then why? This time is saved for what? For what has God given you all scientific research and everything? One thing is very important, is to give you more time. We have the watches in our hands. Why get more time? And how do you get more time that you, your mundane problems are solved? Every day-to-day problems are solved. Life is much easier. It’s not like when the Americans first came up, or when the Spanish people first came to America when they had to fight nature and fight everything. They had to even getting some fire, they had to go miles together to get some wood. It’s not that condition today.
So, God has given you this time to be used for what? For your ascent! For your meditation! Not the meditation for which you pay but to be IN meditation. To be in meditation to grow in your roots and that is what is the time for! But instead, what are we doing? We are just wasting our time feeling extremely unhappy, that we have no work. We are unemployed. The problem of unemployment is not that we don’t have enough money to support life but the problem is that they do not know what to do. And when they do not know what to do they become violent, or they become depressive or they become absolutely gone cases of alcoholism, drugs and all these things. They get so bored that they do not know what to do.
I’ve seen people running in the morning, running in the evening like mad! Ask them why are you running? They don’t know what to do. It’s a question of feeling the need of the divine. If you feel that need then you are employed by God. Sahaja Yogis never feel that way. They are never employed or unemployed because they are always employed. They have to give Realization to people, they have to cure people, they have to do, they have to talk about Sahaja Yoga, they have to tell them that the Resurrection Time has come, that the Golden Age has to come, that you better get your Realisation, you need to jump into that. You have to get your employment with God, which is paid for itself: the joy, the happiness of giving Realisation to people is the highest of all, take it from Me. The joy of giving is the highest, and then giving the Realisation, as you may call it, or, establishing the Realisation in another person who is your neighbour, who is your brother, who is another Human Being itself is such a great joy that without that a Realised soul doesn’t feel happy.
May God Bless you all. As it is I have said that it is not sufficient time for you, for Me to explain to you and I’m going to come back again for about a month, I am going to be in American, and I’m going to spend some time with you people. With, that’s one country I should say, er, I came first, I really came first to America. But I saw the nature of seeking here, and I said let them learn, they won’t come to the right conclusion. They have to learn. That time, they were busy guru shopping. They had money. In ’73, people had lots of money, they were doing a lot of guru shopping and they were teaching Me also, that unless and until I charge money, nobody will look at Me. I said, I’m not going to look at anyone and I, Myself, went back. That’s what it is!
Now, I feel the time has come, I’m going to spend some time here, working it out. But those who are thinking people, those who are bothered about it, must know that you are precariously placed. These are very dangerous times. Either this or that! Either you get the heavens or the hell. So, please be careful! Sahaja Yoga is not a thing, which is a circus or any kind of a false sort of propaganda that we want to do! But those who want to come should come. We cannot force anyone! The only thing we can persuade them: you can take the horse to the water, you can even force some water into the mouth but it is the horse, which has to take it in! Not only that but to enjoy also! In the same way, Sahaja Yoga is dependent on you, not on Me. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t want anything except that I want that you should enjoy like Me! Thank you very much.
If you have any questions you can ask me. Thank you. … Please ask Me, if you have any questions and then we’ll have a little session of Self Realisation and see if it works out. (Shri Mataji sits down at this point of the lecture.)
Q&A Session starts: 48’08”
Q: Shri Mataji, I have a question: When You have joy within yourself because of Your high knowledge and experience, do You also experience sadness or madness when you see so many other people, not knowing this?
A: I do not know ‘experience’ but I ‘witness’. You see, it’s like a drama is on, you see. But in the drama, if there’s Napoleon, you think you are Napoleon. If he’s fighting, you think it is that. But, once the drama is over, you know it’s a drama. In the same way, the drama is over now. It’s just a witness. You are a witness. You just see it but you do not experience it but you see it as a thing, as a drama. All right? Yesterday, I told and answered in a very big, better analogy. Supposing you are in the water, all right? You are in the water, you are afraid that you’ll be drowned by the waves but if you get into the boat then you ‘see’ the water. All right?
Q: You said when the new age comes, but according to the biblical revelations (indistinct). Shri Mataji: What is he saying?
Patrick Radican: He says that the new age is coming but the bible says that there will be a lot of trouble before the new age comes.
Shri Mataji: You ask Me the troubles, I’ll tell you! Troubles through which we are going, you have no idea, you see, these are satanic people who are born on this Earth and the way they are torturing them, you have no idea. You should go and see the way today, the way the seekers are! How people are playing with their lives! You have no idea as to what is happening to them. They are in a very big mess. They are in for terrible troubles. They’ll have cancers and they’ll have mellitus, all sorts of diseases and oh God, they are being butchered by these people.
These are called ‘labour pains’ for your Mother you see (Shri Mataji laughs) It’s true, one has to do a lot. Work very hard. Very hard! I started with one disciple in India, and with seven of them in London, for four years I worked on seven of them. Can you imagine, I worked for four years; I spent my time on them, seven years. But today they are like seven pillars. One of them has come to New York. How much she troubled Me you better go and ask her. (Laughter) Is the best to ask her how much she troubled Me. (Shri Mataji laughs) Yes, my child?
Patrick: Speak loudly. She wants to know if she can ask a personal question. (Questioner: about myself)
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. What is it?
Questioner continues: I’m in conflict. I was not going to…do you remember on Tuesday I told you I was born in Israel
Patrick: She says she was born in Israel … and she’s very unhappy here …
Shri Mataji: You’ll be unhappy everywhere my child. It’s not a question of New York or anyplace. The happiness is within you. The source of joy is within you. First, you find that joy, you should be thankful that you are in New York and could meet me because, in Israel, I don’t know when will I go? So it’s nice in a way that you have met me and then you find your source of joy within yourself and all other solutions will come after that. First, find out your source. All right? Yes?
Q: You were talking about the sadness, the depression in the many people who are seeking from many other traditions. Assuming that they are sincere in their seeking, um, if there is a sort of being that sort of slips in there or if it’s your own thought and if you are seeking for the Divine, um, why doesn’t the Divine help us out a bit, we are helpless.
Shri Mataji: Now look at this – we have advertised, we have spent money, how many are here? You don’t blame Me. See now, how many are here? Out of them, at least 70% are Sahaja Yogis. New people are hardly on the fingers. It’s not My mistake. Now upstairs there’s a program going on about somebody who just gives heart attacks to people, takes money, he’s a well-known homosexual, he gives diamonds to people, to rich people, and all sorts of things he is doing, there are books and books against him, he has managed so many women with him, but go and see the hall, it’s full. You can’t blame Me for that. I’m telling you this because I have seen people do not want reality. They are identified with the wrong things! They want the wrong things. They do not want God. They do not want Spirit, ‘til they hit back. What can Divine do? Divine cannot fall at somebody’s feet, can you? See now, it is absolutely free! I’ve come all the way from London. We have advertised, we have done everything that is possible under the Sun. Just look at that. But how many are seeking? You see, the Divine cannot fall at your feet! What can you do?! Tell Me now, is it My fault? Is it the fault of the Divine? They are, they are sick, I know but why do they run after these things? Even if they run after, why don’t they now seek reality!
I’ve told you, I came first. I was the first (meaning, in terms of for speaking about spirituality) to come to America in 1973. We advertised. I spent My own money, throughout, five, six people had come from India. I paid for them. Everything, I spent My own money, My husband gave Me money, My brothers gave Me money and I came here. But, where are they?! They all got lost! We gave realization to one man who is running a Sahaja Yoga centre, now he has nothing to do with us because we stopped him. He’s making money out of it.
In New York, I was here for at least 20 days. Can you believe it? You’ve never even heard My Name. In ’73 I was here and then I came back again last year (1981). I came back again last year – where are they, those who came?
It’s not My mistake. It’s the mistake of the people who are so gross, who are seeking something gross and hellish. If you go to a saint and ask for diamonds, then what’s the thing? See My point? What can Divine do? Tell me. Whatever you say I’m willing to do for you. Tell Me now. It’s better than you tell me the suggestion. What should I do? You see, in the dreams they see Me. So many come and tell Me, they saw Me in dreams. So many touched that part, they recognized Me. But what happens to them later?
It’s a very difficult place, New York, for Me. It’s all right for people who are fake but for Me, it’s very difficult. I sent one saintly man, a Realized soul, a very dynamic person from India. He was only here for three days and then he ran away. He said do what you like, I will not have these New York people! He just ran away! You don’t know how the situation is! People don’t want reality at all! They want something unreal!
Q: I can be very conflicted, I was raised as a Catholic, well half of me is Catholic and the other half is Episcopalian/Anglican and Catholicism and other religions that are closed, like the Episcopalian, Episcopalianism, always teach that you don’t have to do too much with your mind, just sort of bring your body in and the rest will follow and, they don’t condone any practice such as yours. (Another woman in the audience chimes in to correct the lady who is speaking: you are wrong…)
Shri Mataji: What is she saying?
Patrick: She’s saying that Catholicism and religions like that say that you shouldn’t have to do anything, you should just be there and you’ll receive and there’s, things like meditation, and that’s a thing or not…
Shri Mataji: But My child, what Catholicism is saying, it is missing the point altogether. I’ll tell you how. The first thing is against Catholicism I would say. Not against Christ! But, against Catholicism! What they have missed the point first is, Christ has said, you are to be born again. See My point is? Are they doing anything about it? Only artificial realization, um, artificial baptism they give you. Get some water, any Dick, Tom and Harry comes and puts some on your head and says, you are baptized! It’s not true! It’s not true. Accept it!
First of all, that’s not the way. The Realisation takes place when the Kundalini rises and you really start feeling the Cool Breeze of the Holy Ghost. The All-Pervading Power! That’s one thing they are missing. Secondly, Christ never said that you should have nunneries and all that, these are absolutely wrong! He could never have said that. Thirdly, third, where they went wrong, very wrong is, confession! (To) Whom do you confess? Is very bad because every Catholic I’ve met so far suffers from a very bad centre here (Shri Mataji indicating Her Left Vishuddhi Charka and points to the Chart of the Subtle System), Left Vishuddhi here, guilt!
If you believe that God is Love, and if you believe that God is not only Love but an Ocean of Love, an Ocean of Compassion, an Ocean of Forgiveness, then how can you say that you go and confess to a priest? You make him mad and you become mad too. All heart attacks, anginas come from that guilt (Shri Mataji points to Her Left Vishuddhi.) So many problems like spondylitis come from this, on a physical level I’m telling you comes from that. Is a very dangerous thing, to have guilt! That’s one thing they are doing. Now go ahead. I’m not against Catholics or anyone but I’m trying to point out what mistakes they have committed. If they rectify it, it’s all right. They have done justice to Christ.
Now, another point you’ll see is that to the Catholic if Christ comes in, how will he recognize (Him)? Do you recognize Me? Do you? Do you know who am I? Can you find out who I am? Christ has said that I will send you a Comforter. He has said I will send you a Holy Ghost. How can you make it out? You also do not know whether the Holy Ghost is a man or a woman, what She was, what is Holy Ghost is not explained! Nobody has tried!
Now, this is another thing! Another point is that Catholicism should not take to fanaticism. Should open themselves out and see for themselves what people have to say about Christ in other religions. It’s not a contract of Christ! Nobody can have a contract of Christ. He was a universal personality! He was too great even for the Bible to contain within Himself.
Last, of all, My objection is, how did this St. Paul came in? Who was he? I never recognized him! When I heard about him, I said who is this man? I’ve never heard about this. St. Paul the great! Who was he? Why was he there? How was he connected to the Bible?
If you say, I agree, that Catholics have been sensible about many things but very much stagnated and the bureaucracy of Catholicism is going to ruin it completely! And, the results of that today you can see, Catholicism, all the Catholic countries are poor. There is no blessing of God! They suffer from all kinds of diseases and they are told, you must suffer. If you say that, as a person who is Christian, you don’t believe in Christ.
Christ has suffered for us. We have to awaken Christ within us. And how do you do it?! By raising your Kundalini. So, do not support any such thing. If they can come forward, open themselves out, I tell you, they are the ones who can change the whole world! Even your Pope, I’ve given him Realization, for your information. I met him in Cracow and suddenly!! I met him and after all, at that time it was different. And, er, I raised his Kundalini and it went up and even now sometimes it comes up but he doesn’t know Me, he doesn’t know anything about it, how to approach him? People wrote to him letters. He’s cut off from people; he’s cut off from reality. Is that God?! Is that Christ?! So, if you are a real Catholic, then you have to awaken Christ within you. All right? May God Bless you.
Q: Shri Mataji, when different cultures have different knowledge like when in India and people cremate the body and that is accepted and when over here for some people the idea of cremation is not accepted, and these people judge those people and maybe these people judge those people. You come from a different culture than ours and say how do we recognize you, and even for us in our culture, when we have Bibles and we have different religions and we have many people who show certain levels of concern, for themselves and for other people, and our mind is always chasing or are always chasing in our minds and how we have so little sureness… how are we to know?
Shri Mataji: How you did not know about God?
Questioner continues: How are we to know, when you say, do you know Me, when, when, so few people follow Christ, when Christ was supposedly very holy and very loving, and He was crucified. How are we to know if we have minds? You know, one church says, we’re it, don’t listen to them, the next one comes along and says, do this, don’t do that.
Shri Mataji: What’s she saying…
Patrick: She’s simply asking how are we to recognize Christ when we see Him, how do we, to recognize the Holy Spirit when we see Her.
Shri Mataji: Now, first of all, I’ve to tell you, to say different cultures, this is the wrong thing. (Questioner: it’s a wrong thing?) You are a Human Being, out and out, all right? (Q: yep). That way we are all Human Beings. The culture is outside. Spirit is within. If you open the body of anyone, whether it is an Englishman or an American or an Indian, it’s just the same. All right? Now what I’m saying, the Spirit, which is the universal thing within you, has to be awakened. The Spirit is the universal thing within you.
Now, for example, you said now you follow Christ. I mean, all of you, lots of people follow Christ in here; was He born in America? Was He born in England? Where was He born? (Shri Mataji laughs) People sometimes really must be thinking He must be some New Yorker. (Everyone joins in the laughter) The way they have the ‘contract’ of Christ sometimes I feel, how are they there? Actually, Christ lived more in India than in His own place and never came to New York, take it from Me. (laughter) So how can you have such a thing, this culture plus Christ around, everywhere, you took Christianity, you never thought of cultures, did you?
Today you are talking of cultures, why, because you think your cultures are threatened. Actually, culture is universal! There is a universal culture within us and that universal culture is the culture you will know when you get your Realisation. How? For example, when you’ll get your Realisation what happens is that this All-Pervading Power starts flowing through your hand and you get a new awareness called Vibratory Awareness.
Now, if you want to know if it is Christ, you put your hands towards Him and you’ll see tremendous Vibrations will start flowing. You ask a question, are you Christ and the Vibrations will start flowing. But if he’s not a Christ, put your hands, it won’t. There’s another way, I’ll tell you, a trick. If it’s Christ, ask him to jump in the water. This is another simple one. But the final one is that you become the Spirit, you will know what is Mohammed Sa’b (sahib) is, what Christ is, what all these people, they are all together, you won’t believe! Christ has said, those who are not against Me are with Me. Who are those? Mohammed Sa’b also. It means all the people who are great prophets of the world, those who are incarnations of the world, are all one with Christ. He doesn’t reside somewhere as a single. All right?
So we have to learn the universal language of Vibratory Awareness and Universal Culture of Auspiciousness. Auspiciousness is the thing we should do something that will give us more vibrations, which is appealing to our Spirit. It is not auspicious, say an Indian, a saint is sitting and you just go and show your feet to a saint. It’s not auspicious. Now, after Realisation you try that, you’ll see immediately, your Vibrations will stop. We have lost the sense of auspiciousness. I would say it was so here before we started this 1920’s nonsense, that we started. In the ‘20s we started really all our nonsenses. All kinds of unholy attacks came on us, in the western countries, we have driven away from our roots and we started all kinds of nonsensical ideas by which we are removed from it. But again, again when you go back to your roots you’ll find the culture is the same! It’s a culture of human love. All right? So you agree with Me there. But you are not yet Realised! After Realisation, I will tell you, all right? You just take your Realisation first, all right? That should be so.
Q: … Christ, He was born in Jeruselum. (Shri Mataji: yes…) I believe so (Shri Mataji: yes…) See now, there’s a problem, with what Christ consciousness stands for I agree but with all this thing has nothing to do with religions, (Shri Mataji agrees), OK, I know Christ was Jewish but there were such discrepancies afterwards you know when Christ at that time… you know I was brought up a Jew. Now, when I, you know in the orthodoxy of the Jewish religion there’s this great… (Shri Mataji: you’ll understand all…) OK, because, because He was made a god or something or man formed a religion or whatever it is…but if you say to Jews Jesus now, they go crazy you know, they’re thinking of it in a different way you see
Shri Mataji: You see that’s why you must come face to face with reality. If I say there was Christ, He was the Son of God, how can you believe it? I agree with you. But also we believe in Moses, we believe in Abraham, equally the same. They have a different, for Moses and Abraham are, they exist in our Void here, (Shri Mataji pointing to Subtle System Chart) there, what you see is as prophets but Christ is here (Shri Mataji puts Her Agnya finger on Her Agnya Chakra on the forehead). So, whether I say it’s true or not, how will you verify? You have to verify it. To verify what are we to do? The point is, you must verify. And, to verify it, you, (turns to an audience member and says: come along, sit down) you must have Vibratory Awareness. And, how will you have Vibratory Awareness? By getting your Realisation! Then you, if you ask a question say, you ask a question, was Christ the Son of God? You’ll get vibrations! (Shri Mataji indicates how vibrations would flow in the hands). Was Moses a true man? Yes! Everything you will know through this new awareness when you are connected with God, you’ll know the truth.
Jews, everywhere it happens, you see, for example, I was born in an Indian Christian family. Not a single Indian Christian is my disciple and they are against Me. You’ll be amazed. I have all Hindus, Muslims, Parsis (Farsi) disciples in India. I go and address in the Catholic Hindu, Sanathan Dharam, they call it, temples. Thousands of Hindus are there but the Indian Christians do not accept me. And somebody asked Me why Mother did you take birth in an Indian Christian family when you are the, according to them, I’m an incarnation, according to Hindus I’m an incarnation. I said why because they are the most fanatic. (laughter from the audience) While I have Christian disciples all over the world but not in India.
The same thing happened with Christ. When Christ came in He was opposed by Jews at that time. They can’t bear it, you see. I tell you, it’s true with everyone! It’s not only Christ, but it has also happened with everyone. You come to India and you will see how every saint has been troubled by their own caste. We have Shirdi Sainath who was a Muslim; Kabir was tortured by Muslims. (Audience member: Buddha was a Hindu) Buddha (Audience member: …was a Hindu) See? And, the Hindus rejected Him.
So it is human nature when the person is living, they don’t want to worship him. They want the person to die and then build all the temples and churches. Now, but see the result: Jews deny Christ, so they had to deny that He has suffered for us, so they said we must suffer. Jews had this big philosophy you must remember: we all must suffer for God, we must suffer for God! So you had Mr Hitler back on your heads. You have asked for him! You incarnated him by you ‘we want to suffer, we want to suffer’, all right, suffer now. Now after Mr Hitler, you people have become Hitler now in Israel. Is a fact! One must accept, the way they are behaving. This Mr Sharon (11th Prime Minister of Israel) came to India just after they have been there (in Israel). That time he was not a minister or anything, now, but he was an influential man. They organised a program and I was there and again I was the chief guest of that organization. And I said one thing, he told how the Hitler people troubled him and what happened, all these things he told, I said, remember one (thing), whatever has happened to you, you should not become a fanatic and torture others and he promised. We have a tape! He promised that this can never happen and you see today what he’s doing!
Even the Americans don’t know. This is it. This is it! You see because they have money Americans may not say anything but what is wrong is wrong! In the eyes of God, it is wrong, it is sinful, whether is it, Hitler or Mr Sharon, it makes no difference. It’s not a question of politics, its question of values, of right and wrong. So this is what it is.
So do not identify yourself with any dogmas or with any fanaticism. Open your eyes and see for the truth, what it is, all right? See for the truth, what it is and then accept it because you should see how fanaticism has ruined our world. Look at that, what are we going to give our children? Mr Khomeni is on one side. We call him a fanatic, but you ask him and he’ll tell you it’s about Sharon. And if you want to ask about Jews go and ask Christians and if you want to ask about Christians, go and ask Hindus in India. (Audience member: Well that isn’t what happened though, there’s a lot of Jews who were against what Sharon did.) They did, I tell you. (A/Member continues: They put up…) There are always good people in every place. What I’m saying is, not the whole lot. I’m saying, there are many Jews that have met Me and said, we are sorry for this. There are many Jews who felt like that, believe Me. Agreed. There are nice people in every place and they are the ones who are going to get Realisation. (laughter from audience) You are one of them, all right? There are so many nice people. Very few are fanatics. How many there are? Khomeini is in Iran, you’ll be surprised, very few, they hate it.
Now in Iran, we have Sahaja Yogis, you’ll be surprised. There are Sahaja Yogis all over the place. We have Sahaja Yogis everywhere, so it is not necessary, that if you belong to any community, you are condemned to anywhere. No, not at all! As long as you do not take to those ways! If you think these are wrong, then it is good. It’s perfectly all right. Yes?
Q: … (Indistinct) HHSM: what’s this?
Patrick: Do you have to be sure in order to get your Realisation, do you have to believe in your Realisation?
Shri Mataji: No but you must believe that you are a human being and capable of having a Realisation and you must faith in yourself and that’s the first thing. But if it does not happen, you should not condemn yourself. You’ll get it! Most people have got it are 99.9% people who have come to Me have got it but there are 1% people who haven’t got it also, I must say, who haven’t got it for years, so there I don’t know what the problem is with them. I just don’t know. I’m trying still, on them, so I can’t say that all of you will get it today but you will definitely get it, no doubt. You have to just ask for it, be steady about it. Your seeking should be truthful and honest.
Now you’ll be amazed that we have so many Jews as My disciples they believe in Christ and they know that without calling for Christ they know that you cannot raise your Kundalini. They believe it much more than any Christian can believe it because it’s an experience with them. And they believe, the Christians believe in Moses much more than the Jews than they ever believed in because they know He exists within us. And if you have to raise the Kundalini above this point (Shri Mataji indicating to S.S chart) to take the name of Moses and Mohammed Sa’b too. They are all one people, you’ll be amazed! Now the Jews are fighting the Muslims. They don’t know that there’s no difference between Moses and Mohammed. They are the same personality born again and again. Just imagine! It’s so amazing, the whole thing. (Audience Member: they’re just two incarnations of the same…) Same personality, the Primordial Master; is the same personality. We can prove it on Sahaja Yoga. We can prove it that the Kundalini stops at a person who is fanatic. Then if he takes the name of another person, like say, if he’s a Muslim, he takes the name of Moses, the Kundalini rises.
So universally, they are all one. Let us feel that unity, the joy of that unity, that blessing of that unity, of that oneness and give up all these fights. No religion can teach us to fight, can it? If that is so, doing it, it’s no religion. Religion has to teach us to be one, to be collective. We are all human beings.
Q: How did it all start, all these separations … and we believe in all this …
Shri Mataji: Why do you believe in all these things? How can God make you like that? He cannot. You are His children. All of you are His children. Think Him to be your Father. How can He teach you to fight? It’s all some sort of, I think, it’s a western interest to stir some sort of ignorance, I don’t know how to blame. I also don’t want to condemn them, those who have done it because I am a Mother and I have to forgive them. I forgive all of them. But whatever it is, they should not go further with it. This is too much now. I can’t see the way the world is divided into thousands and thousands and thousands of sects in the name of God. You can do wars in the name of something nonsensical but in the name of God, how do you divide them? They are part and parcel of one personality, the cells of the body of One Living God, how can you divide those cells? They are so related, so connected but the only Realisation will tell you that it is so. Without that, you cannot feel it.
My concern is that people do not establish their Realisation! Then you will know that you are all one!! There is no difference at all except that, out, just to create beauty, God has created different varieties of faces. See the permutations and combinations. One leaf does not look like another leaf, but just to create art! But here we have people with noses like this, people with eyes like that, we club. We club for everything. Even if somebody eats with a spoon, they’ll club together, spoon eaters. (laughter from audience) We have a habit to the club. Something we’ll find out to club together. It is our trouble. We are such club minded people that you don’t know and then I don’t mind, club, doesn’t matter but then why fight the other club? (audience laughs appreciatively) As you have a club, they too have a club, then why fight? (laughter) And then with the daggers and knives, imagine! That’s the worst part of it.
Now the day has come that we should forget it and finished off once and for all. Let human beings rise to that state of a Spirit. You will see, it will happen. You are all thinking people. America is known for its sublime thinking, of higher thinking and the time has come now for you to think of the Democracy of God’s way. Let it come down, where everybody has equal rights, may not be similar rights but equal rights because similarity will be boring. So, let it be different but equal rights to exist with happiness, joy and complete supreme freedom. That’s the time I’m talking about. (silence in the audience can be felt) All right? Forget all the differences and forget all these things. Just think that you are thinking people and whatever knowledge you have you put forward for this. All right, let’s have it. Now, what’s it?
Q: When I’ve gone to different teachers, of different persuasions, different spiritual teachers, I have felt something, I’ve felt a breeze, pardon my ignorance, but is it my, coming from me or is it coming form them to a degree, or is it coming from inside myself? Is it some sort of realization that can be transferred?
Shri Mataji: What’s he saying?
Patrick: He’s asking You: he’s been to different teachers and he says that he has experiences with them, he doesn’t know whether they’re coming from them or coming from inside himself and he wants to know how to tell the difference and whether a divine experience can be transmitted.
Shri Mataji: Of course, it can be, if it is divine. It has to be divine. Let’s see, we’ll see you also, all right? When you get your Realisation, you get it to form your own Spirit, not from anybody. You are your own guru, you are your own master, only your, that master (indicating to Chart) has to be awakened within you. I’m your Mother and Mother is the greatest Master, and the greatest headache for a Mother also because She cannot be strict like the Master, She has to be kind and nice and She’s weak about Her children. She has a weakness for Her children! So the only thing She can do is to awaken the master (principle) within you, your own master and it’s, then it’s easy for you to correct yourself. You are your own master.
Q: I have a more mundane and practical question. I wonder whether you could tell us how to maybe the best way to deal with people who we meet in our daily lives, not important people to us, but just people who we meet, you know, and where we can, I have a tendency to look at that person who’s giving me crap, you know, and I look at him or her and I see the light inside and I think how can you give me that crap, you know and instead I wonder whether, you know, it’s best to smile and say thank you for the crap (Shri Mataji laughs) or do you say, or maybe do you give an example and you just ignore it, you know? Do you know what I mean? Or do you speak?
Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no. After Sahaja Yoga, I’ll tell you about the technique. The technique of Sahaja Yoga you have to learn. Then, how to envelop them in your love, how to take out their thoughts, is all you’ll be learning. Because, so far, we have never used the Power of Love, you see, what we have used is the Power of Hatred. All these nations are working on that Power of Hatred: how to hate each other but now this is Power of Love. And, this Power of Love, you must know the technique of how to use, is very wonderful of how you can make a flower out of a thorn. We have made so many people like that. We have made a flower out of a thorn and you can do it also but you have to learn the technique, that’s all. It’s a technique of Love.
Q: Could another guru who is one with God could he give just by touching the Shakti? (paraphrased)
Shri Mataji: You see, so many say like that but I haven’t seen one. Most of them are giving nothing but spirits. If the shakti is given then the Kundalini must rise and you must get a cool breeze on your head. That’s the sign. Not the other way round. If the people say they are giving, so what? They are all telling lies, morning till evening, they are giving this and giving that but have you got any powers, can you feel another person, can you say that this person has this problem, can you say what problems you have within? It is like, there is no light, nothing, and I say I give you the light, now I start believing I’ve got the light, closed eyes and in the darkness, Oh, I’ve got the light, I’ve got the light, and we are banging our heads everywhere. But if there is the light then you must know what is within you, what is within other people. That’s the sign. But don’t believe in people who tell you lies! There are people who are very good at telling lies much better than you all western people can put together. That’s the quality of Indians! Don’t believe them. I hope there are no Indians (laughter) because if I, not all, as I said, there are many very honest Indians also but they can tell lies very well and cheat you and take your money.
Q: Mother I have got a friend who lives far away, she has so-called a terminal disease, she is dying, and I wonder if there is something I can do to help her or if I should try?
Shri Mataji: What happened to you?
Patrick: He has a friend who lives far away and she has a terminal disease. She’s dying and he wants to know if there is any way that he can help her?
Shri Mataji: Of course you can. Why don’t you come and see me tomorrow morning, I’ll tell you what is to be done. What terminal disease does she have?
Questioner: She has something called Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, so-called Lou Gehrig disease (also known as motor neuron disease) for which that has no known cause and no known cure.
Shri Mataji: What is the symptom? (A yogi: multiple sclerosis Mother, something like that Mother) Oh, it is curable through Sahaja Yoga. We cured people in Cambridge, just form the pulpit, yeah. Multiple Sclerosis? (Yogi: something like that.) All right, if you come along, I will tell you what is to be done. All right? Multiple sclerosis is curable. Don’t you worry, what’s her name? (the name is given) (Shri Mataji closes Her eyes and goes into meditation). Um. Done. Now, should we have…?
Come tomorrow to see me. I’ll tell you. Leukomia. That is not difficult. This is not difficult. Don’t you worry. You see they want to suffer. They are Jews. Ha, ha, ha, ha… Look at that now. See… This is non-sense. This is nonsense. You see. You can’t create this body. Can you create this human body? Why do you want to suffer? You have no respect. Absolutely it has no meaning at all. I can’t understand. You want to torture yourself. This is a wrong idea. Absolutely wrong idea. You better come see me tomorrow. I will tell you. Don’t you worry. I will tell you. It is a wrong idea they want to suffer. What to do? Do one thing. Take two sticks and give them. Now hit each other and suffer. (people are laughing in the audience). To such stupid people what should we do? They want to suffer. There is one fellow, who told me, a radio man, that everybody has a right to suffer. I said, alright if you want to suffer, go to some place far away and kill yourself. Why bother everyone with your suffering? It is a sadism isn’t it ? I am suffering, I am suffering, I am suffering… Who has asked you to suffer? Shri Mataj is is smiling and drinking some water. Have you met such wonderful people?… hahhha… that you have to enter into the Kingdom of God, promised that, and you want to suffer? There must be something wrong with you / them? They must be possessed, otherwise I can’t explain this. That you want to suffer, why? It is like a man who is rich, wants to say: I want to become poor and starve myself. In the name of GOD, again. Some people torture others in the name of God, some people torture themselves in the name of God. What do you say to that? What a wonderful understanding of life.
So now, it is very simple for you to get your realization, normally. Normally… You have to do one simple thing, first of all, is to take out your shoes. I am sorry, it is rather cold down. But you have to. Because it is Mother Earth will help us. And it is very good we are very happily on the Mother Earth. Seldom get such a chance. If it is not very cold you can put your feet on the Mother Earth. We take help from all the elements. To put the elements within us first of all,alright. Now you put your both the hands towards me, just like this. Now why we are doing it? Because as I told you, your hands are to be enlightened. The chakras are five, six and seven within you. (Shri Mataji is showing the chakras on Her right hand.) And these 7 chakras must be enlightened. And the message passes through your hands to the Kundalini and She rises spontaneously, as a seed sprouts, it just rises. And that has to happen to all of us. It is very simple. There are so many who are Realized Souls here. They have got it the experience, and you all should get it.
There is some noise from the outside. And Shri Mataji asks: “What is that?”. Audience starts laughing.
A lady says: “They want realization.” And laughters continue.
A gentleman says: “It is a loud speaker for an election. There is a politician advertising himself, from loud speaker in the street.
Shri Mataji: “Why are they shouting?”
From the audience: “Everybody would vote for them.”
Shri Mataji: Vote!…Vote.
A lady says: “Is it Indian politics?”… Laughter in the audience. Shri Mataji is also laughing.
Shri Mataji: “Same style… 🙂 They are one better than the other. Nothing to choose. Alright. Just put your hands towards me. And you have to close your eyes. Please keep your eyes shot. That is important, because when the Kundalini rises, She touches the Agnya and the dilatation of the pupil takes place. But if the eyes are open, it won’t work out. Please keep your eyes shot till I tell you. Just… That much if you cooperate I will tell you later on what is to be done. Put both the hand towards me, stretched out. And keep your eyes shut. Now put your right hand on your heart. That is the place of your Spirit, and left hand towards me as it was. Throughout you have to keep the left hand the same way. Now after putting your hand there, you ask a question. With fill confidence you have to ask a question not hesitatingly, but with full confidence: “Mother am I the Spirit?” Ask the question: “Mother am I the Spirit?”
The audience asks the question out loud: “Mother am I the Spirit?”
Shri Mataji: “Again ask the question: “Mother am I the Spirit?””
The audience asks the question out loud: “Mother am I the Spirit?”
Shri Mataji: “Again ask the question.”
The audience asks the question out loud: “Mother am I the Spirit?”
Shri Mataji: “Now put this right hand up, on the neck again. On the, on the left hand side again, we are working on the left hand side. On the neck. And three times, just say… “Mother, I am not guilty.””
The audience repeats out loud: “Mother I am not guilty.”
Shri Mataji: “Again…”
The audience repeats out loud: “Mother I am not guilty.”
The audience repeats out loud: “Mother I am not guilty.”
Shri Mataji: “Now put back this hand, right hand down below on the stomach, on the left hand side. Again we are working out our chakras ourselves. Pressing it. All the fingers pressing in the stomack on the left hand side. Now ask the questions again…: Mother am I my own Guru?”
Woman 1: I can be very conflicted having been raised the Catholic and well have […] and Catholicism and other have this Episcopalian […some words ambiguous] other religions which are close to it such at Episcopalian, Episcopalianism. Always teach that you don’t have to do too much with your mind, you sort you bring your body in and the rest go power (?). And they don’t at all condone any praxis such as yours.
Woman 2: […]. You’re mistaken. You read […]
Woman 1: Pardon? Maybe, that’s […]
Shri Mataji: What is she saying?
Yogi: She is saying that Catholicism and religions like that say that you shouldn’t have to do anything and you should be there and you receive and there is not things like meditation and that’s…
Shri Mataji (57:32): But my child what Catholicism is saying it is missing the point all together. I’ll tell you how. The first thing is against Catholicism I would say, not against Christ, but against Catholicism. What they have missed the point first is: Christ has said: ‘You are to be born again.’ See My point is. Are they doing anything about it? Only artificial baptism they give you. Get some water and any Dick, Tom and Harry comes and puts on your head and says: ‘You are baptised’. It is not true, it is not true! Accept it first of all, that’s not the way. The realization takes place when the Kundalini rises in you and you really start feeling the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost, the all pervading power. That’s one thing they are missing. (58:19) Secondly Christ never said that you should have nunneries and all that. It’s absolutely wrong. He could never have said that. Third thing with were they went very wrong is confession. Whom do you confess? Is very bad because every Catholic I have met so far suffers from a very bad centre here – left Vishuddhi, a guilt. If you believe that God is love and if you believe that God is not only love but an ocean of love and an ocean of compassion, an ocean of forgiveness, then how can you say that you go and confess to a priest? You make him mad and you become mad too. All heart attacks, anginas come from that guilt. So many other problems like spondylitis, on physical level I’m telling you, comes from there. It’s a very dangerous thing to have guilt, that’s one thing they are doing. Now go ahead. I’m not against Catholics or anyone, but I’m trying to point out what mistakes they have committed. If they rectified its all right, they have done justice to Christ. Now, the another point you have to see, that a Catholic – if Christ comes in how will you recognize? Do you recognize Me? Do you? Do you know who am I? Can you find out who am I? Christ has said that ‘I will send you a comforter’. He has said: ‘I’ll send you a Holy Ghost’. How can you make it out? You also do not know whether the Holy Ghost was a man or a woman, what She was, what is Holy Ghost is not explained. Nobody has tried. Now this is another thing. Another point is that Catholicism should not take to fanatism. Should open themselves out and see for themselves what people have to say about Christ in other religions. It’s not a contract of Christ. Nobody can have a contract of Christ. He was an universal personality. He was too great even for bible to contain within self. Last of all My objection is that how this saint Paul came in? Who was he? I never recognized him. When I heard about him I said: Who is this man. I have never heard about this. Saint Paul the great. Who was he? Why was he there? How was he connected with bible? If you say I agree Catholics have been sensible about many things but very much stagnating. And the bureaucracy of Catholicism is going it to ruin it completely. And the results of that today you can see, Catholicism – all the catholic countries are poor. There is no blessing of God. They suffer from all kinds of diseases and they are told: ‘You must suffer!’ If you say that as a person who is Christian, you don’t believe in Christ. Christ has suffered for us. We have to awaken Christ within us. And how do you do it? By raising your Kundalini. So do not support any such thing. If they can come forward, open themselves out, I tell you they are the ones who can change the whole world. Even your pope I have given him realization for your information. I met him in Krakow suddenly. And I met him and after all that time it was different. And I raised his Kundalini, it went up. Even now sometimes it comes up but he doesn’t know Me. He doesn’t know anything about. How to approach him? People wrote to him letters, he doesn’t go to him. He is cut off from people, cut off from reality, cut off from everything, is that God, is that Christ? So if you are a real Catholic then you are awaken Christ in you, all right? May God bless you.
Woman: Mataji, in different cultures have different knowledge like when in India people cremate bodies and that is accepted and when over here by some people the idea of cremation is not accepted and these people judge those people and maybe those people judge these people. And You come from a different culture than ours and say how do we recognize You and even for us in our culture where we have bibles and we have different religions and we have many people who shows levels of concern for themselves for other people and our minds are always chasing, we always chasing in our minds. How we have so little sureness and we haven’t come. How are we do now?
Shri Mataji: Are you did not know what?
Woman: How do we know You say: Do you know Me? When so … [word ambiguous] people follow Christ. When Christ was supposedly very holy and very loving and He was crucified. How are we do know if we have minds? You know? But one church says: We are it, don’t listen to them. The next one comes along it says: Do this, don’t do that!
Shri Mataji: What is she saying?
Yogi: She simply asking how do we recognize Christ when we see Him and how do we recognize Holy Spirit when we see Him?
Shri Mataji: Now, first of all I have to tell you that to say different cultures is a wrong thing. You see, you are a human being out and out, all right? That way, we are all human beings. The culture is outside, spirit is within. If you open the body of anyone, whether it is an English man or an American or an Indian it’s just the same. All right? Now, what I’m saying the spirit which is the universal thing within you has to be awakened. The spirit is the universal thing within you. Now, for example you said now, you follow Christ. I mean all of you – lot’s of people follow Christ here. Was He born in America? Was He born in England? Where was He born? People sometimes feel He must be a New Yorker. The way they have the contract of Christ sometimes I feel how are they there. Actually Christ lived more in India than in His own place and never came to New York, take it from Me. So, how can you have such a thing, this culture plus Christ around, everywhere you do Christianity you never thought of culture, did you? Today you are talking of cultures, why, because you think that your cultures are threatened. Actually culture is universal. There is a universal culture within us and that universal culture is the culture you will know when you get your realization. How? For example when you get your realization, what happens that this all pervading power starts flowing through your hand and you get a new awareness called vibrately awareness. Now, if you want to know if it is Christ you put your hands towards Him and you will see tremendous vibrations will start flowing. You ask a question: ‘Are You Christ?’, and the vibrations will start flowing. But if he is not a Christ, you put your hands – it won’t. There is another way, I’ll tell you a trick. If he is Christ ask him to jump in the water. This is another, simple one. But the final one is that you become the spirit. You will know what this Mohammed Sab is, what this Christ is. What all this people they are all together you won’t believe. Christ has said: ‘Those who are not against Me, are with Me.’ Who are those? Mohammed Sab also. It means all the people who are great prophets of the world, those who are incarnations of the world are all one with Christ. He doesn’t sign somewhere a single. All right? So, we have to learn the universal language of vibrately awareness and universal culture of auspiciousness. Auspiciousness is the thing, we should do something that will give us more vibrations. Which is appealing to our spirit. It is not auspicious say for in India, say a saint is sitting and you just go and show your feet to a saint. It is not auspicious. After realization you try that. You will see immediately your vibrations will stop. We have lost the sense of auspiciousness. I would say it was so here before … [word incomprehensible]. We started this nineteen twenties nonsense. That it started. In 20th really started all our nonsense. All kinds of unholy attacks came on us in the western countries. We were driven away from our roots and we started all kinds of nonsensical ideas by which we are removed. But again when you go back to your roots you will find the culture is the same. Is a culture of human love. All right? So, you agree with Me there.
But you are not yet realized. After realization I will tell you, all right? You just take your realization first, all right, that should be so.
Woman: [some words incomprehensible] to say something about Christ. He was born in Jerusalem. I mean I believe so. See, now there’s a problem which what Christ’s consciousness stands for I agree. Now, all this thing has nothing to do with religions. Ok. I know Christ was Jewish. But there was such discrepancies afterwards you know, when Christ at that time … [words ambiguous] up a Jew. Now, when I – you know the … [words ambiguous].
Shri Mataji: You will understand all…
Woman: Ok … [some words ambiguous] a God of some thing or man form a religion or whatever it is. But if You say Jews for Jesus now, they go crazy [word ambiguous] now but they thinking of that in a different way.
Shri Mataji: You see, that’s why you must come face to face to reality. If I say there was Christ, He was the son of God, how can you believe it? I agree with you. But also we believe in Moses, we believe in Abraham equally the same. They have a different – for Moses and Abraham are exist in our Void, here, there what you see as prophets, but Christ is here (Shri Mataji points at the Agnya Chakra). So, whether I say its true or not, how will you verify? You have to verify it. To verify it what have you to do? The point is, you must verify it. And to verify it you must have vibrately awareness. And how will you have vibrately awareness? By getting your realization. Then you – if you ask a question. Say you ask a question: ‚Was Christ the son of God?‘ You will get vibrations. Was Moses a true man? Yes – everything you will know through this new awareness. When you are connected with God, you will know the truth. Jews. Everywhere it happened, you see. For example I was born in an Indian Christian family. Not a single Indian Christian is My disciple and they are against Me. You’ll be amazed I have all Hindus, Muslims, Parsees disciples in India. I go and address in the Catholic Hindu – Sanatan Tharam they call it – temples, thousand Hindus are there. But the Indian Christians do not accept Me. And somebody ask Me: ‚Why mother did You take birth in a Christian family when You are the –‘ according to them I am an incarnation. According to Hindus I am an incarnation. I said why, because they are the most fanatic. While I have Christian disciples all over the world, but not in India. Same thing happened with Christ. When Christ came in He was apposed by Jews at that time. They can’t bear it, to say it’s true with everyone, is not only Christ, it has happened with everyone. You came to India and you will see that every saint has been troubled by his own cast. We had Shirdi Sai Nath who was a Muslim, and Kabir, they was tortured by Muslims.
Woman: Buddha was a Hindu!
Shri Mataji: Buddha, the same. And the Hindus rejected Him. So, it is human nature. When the person is living they don’t want to worship him. They want the person to die and then build all the temples and churches. Now – but see the result. Jews deny Christ, so they had to deny that He has suffered for us. So they say: ‘We must suffer’. Jews had this big philosophy if you remember. We all must suffer for God, we must suffer for God. So, you had Mr. Hitler back on your heads. You have ask for him, you incarnated him by your: ‘We want to suffer, we want to suffer!’ All right, suffer now. Now after Hitler you people have become Hitlers now in Israel. It is a fact, one must accept the way they behaving. This Mr. Sharon came to India just after they have been there. That time he was not a minister or anything, but he was an influential man. They organized a program and I was there. Again I was a chief guest of that organization. And I said one thing. He told how the Hitler people troubled him and what happened, all this things he told. I said: ‘Remember one. Whatever has happened to you, you should not become a fanatic and torture others.’ And he promised – we have a tape. He promised that this can never happen. And you see today what he is doing. Even the Americans don’t know. This is it. This is it! You see, because they have money, Americans may not say anything, but what is wrong is wrong. In the eyes of God it is wrong, it is sinful, whether it is Hitler or Mr. Sharon it makes no difference. Is no question of politics, is question of values, of right and wrong. So this is what it is. So, do not identify yourself with any dogmas or with any fanaticism. Open your eyes and see for the truth what it is. All right? See for the truth what it is and then accept it. Because you should see how fanaticism has ruined our world. Look at that: What are we going to give our children. Mr. Chomeini is on one side. We call him a fanatic but you ask him and he will tell you about Sharon. And if you want to ask about Jews go and ask Christians and if you want to ask about Christian go and ask Hindus in India.
Woman: Well, there are unhappy [ambiguous] people in Israel was very upset about what Sharon did.
Shri Mataji: They did, I tell you. There are always good people in every place. What I’m not saying, not the whole. I am saying there are many Jews they have met Me and said ‘that we are sorry for this’. There are many Jews who are felt like that, believe Me. I agree, there are nice people in every place and they are the ones who are going to get realization. You’ll be one of them, all right. There are so many nice people. Very few are fanatics. How many there are Chomeinis in Iran, you will be surprised. Very few, the hate it. Now in Iran we have Sahaja Yogis, you will be surprised. We have got Sahaja yogis are all over the places. We have Sahaja Yogis everywhere so it is not necessary that if you belong to any community you are condemned anywhere. No not at all as long as you do not take those ways. If you think this ways are wrong then it is good, it is perfectly all right.