Questions and Answers About America, Delhi, India 1983-02-10
Yogi: We’ll be asking pretty much the same questions as we did the other day. We’ll need answers that are one or two minutes long.
Shri Mataji: Two minutes only? That’s a large country like America.
Yogi: If it’s too long then we can edit it. (Shri Mataji looks at the questions.)
• What is the importance of self realization?
• Why is it important to receive self realization?
• What are vibrations?
• What can the West learn from the Indians and Indians from the West?
Shri Mataji: This India vs. West is too controversial. Learn from India nothing and India should learn nothing from you. They’re all in the same melting pot.
Brian, did you hear me? Nothing to learn from the Indians on the gross level and nothing to learn from the west. Both are in the same melting pot. One is developed and one is developing. What do you say?
Yogi: On the spiritual level, then, Mother?
Shri Mataji: What do you think about Indians’ spiritual level? is zero? What is it?
Yogi: Well the aspirations, what is still preserved in this country?
Shri Mataji- If I have to talk to Americans, they’re ego oriented. They’ll feel hurt. Better not say India is anything greater than they have.
Yogi: Mother, you’re being the diplomat of the diplomats.
Shri Mataji: Our main object is to get them into Sahaja Yoga, isn’t it? Not to blast them. So let us avoid subjects which will challenge their ego. Why to challenge their ego so they just get out of…
Yogi: What we are trying to answer, Mother, is the question of why do 130 westerners come to India and undergo the discomforts of India. What is it that they are looking for that they feel they can find here, from that point of view?
Shri Mataji: Then don’t put learn. You can put that, “What is the difference between an Indian seeker and a Western seeker?” That’s a better one. As long as they are seeking, they are at a grosser level. We can compare. What is the difference between the two? But if you come to the subtler things then there is no difference.
Yogi: This last one, what we thought was the suggestion you made to us that you also talk a bit about the guru. What we are going to ask is that there are so many paths. Why does only Sahaja go to God and what is the aim of the other gurus? It’s all so controversial..
Shri Mataji: Oh, all right. What I will do in this I will choose. This way will be better. This will be about the gurus. I would like to put it separately.
Yogi: It’s really up to you, Mother, however it works out.
Shri Mataji: It will work out. But what you said was what is vibrations you have put it?
Yogi: That’s there, yes, that’s the second thing.
Shri Mataji: Tell you what. Let an American ask it – with an American accent. Alright, let’s see what you have to ask me? Better remove Ganesha otherwise they may question this. No? All right.
Yogi: What is the importance of receiving self realization?
Shri Mataji: In the evolutionary process, a human being has come out of a small little unicellular animal called amoeba. What is the purpose of becoming a human being? The purpose is that he has to become the Spirit. This vehicle of a human body and mind is to express the Spirit within.
Self realization is the epitome of our evolution so we all have to become self realized. Without Self, we are in darkness. We are not aware of the all-pervading power which is doing all the living works which we cannot do. What we do is the dead work or the mental projections which recoil back upon ourselves and enslave us. We must get to self realization. That’s the goal of human ascent from amoeba to this stage.
Yogi: What are vibrations?
Shri Mataji: Vibrations are the feeling of the all pervading Divine power within yourself on your central nervous system. You can feel the Divine power for the first time after self realization on your central nervous system ending up into your finger tips where the sympathetic centers are
located. So you start feeling on your hand the universal language which is spoken by the hand, the different centers and thus you know a rapport is established between the Spirit and yourself because when you ask a question about any fundamental problem, you either get a cool breeze
blowing into your hands or you just stop it. Sometimes you might get some blisters. Also if the person is suffering from some sort of very great maladjustment. You might get numbness if the person is on his way to death or could be freezingly cold. So the hands start speaking as said by Mohammad Sahib, that your hands will speak when the time of resurrection will come. This is the time of resurrection because Kundalini resides in the sacrum which is the Aquarius. This is the age of the Aquarius. This is the age of the Kundalini.
Yogi: So this is the double question. The West has received from India a lot of gurus and each with seemingly a different path and its believed in the West that all the paths lead to God. Many people believe that it doesn’t matter how you go but you are going to get there. Is that what India
has to contribute to the West, to the seekers of America?
Shri Mataji: India has to give the knowledge of the roots, while the West has the knowledge of the tree. But those who are exported from here I wonder how many of them are really genuine or if they know anything about the roots? So I just can’t say that those who are going there are the people who can deliver the knowledge which is not yet known to the West. Whatever is unknown is not Divine. To understand logically the difference between India and the West is this: that India has still retained the fundamentals as the goal of life and the fundamental is that one should get self realization, that one should try to lead a life of balance of dharma. Because there is so much of knowledge of the roots in this country, people can become very hypocritical, they can be very dishonest and can misuse that knowledge to exploit the Western people who are naïve about this knowledge.
My idea of bringing some of the sahaja yogis from the West to India, in the villages of India, was to make them understand that comfort is not the goal of life. Because we have villagers who are realized souls, who do not have any comforts which are so important to the Western people, but they are very happy, satisfied and peaceful people and are extremely good yogis.
That does not mean that you give up your comforts and you become godly. It’s all a mental behavior if you think that by negation you can become godly. It’s not the way. But when you come to India you understand that this habit of seeking comfort must be given up. If you have any it’s alright but don’t let the comfort sit on your head. Let your Spirit rule you and not the idea that you should be comfortable or affluent. That idea should not rule you.
Yogi: The other thing we wanted to ask you is 1 or 2 of the questions for the American Press, the shorter American press.
Shri Mataji: But I haven’t said anything about the guru so far. As I have said that many fake people have gone to America because they know you are all naïve and anything bombastic will impress you very much because American life has now become very money oriented and ego oriented. So they have developed all the methods of pampering your ego and getting money out of you so that you feel that you can purchase the guru. I was the first to go to America and then all of them followed and so many Americans suggested to me that, “Mother, why do you not get some money for yourself and also ask for money for what you’re doing for these people because you are doing the real thing.”
Because Americans will not understand anything that is free and is precious but I said that money can only buy whatever is lower than you. It cannot buy something that is higher than you. They said, “You will never be successful in America. You have to fix some money.” I said, “I don’t want this success. I want sahaja yogis. I want yoga to work out. One day will come that they will realize those gurus whom they have purchased have exploited them completely and have used them for their own purposes and have run away. Let them realize because if I tell them they are not going to realize it. One must know whatever is vital for life you cannot purchase. In all humility human beings also must realize that you have done nothing to become human beings. God has done everything. How much have you paid to Him?”
But still they have to learn the lesson and once you get into the clutches of these gurus it is very difficult to get out till you get into big problems like heart attacks or lunacy, epilepsy, all these things. But even if you get it you cannot connect that with this. You must understand that if you have a real guru as your master then at least your health should be alright, your wealth should be intact while they are only interested in the purse. Americans have lots of money and I think they are more interested in Americans than Indians because Indians don’t have any money. It is as simple as that.
Yogi: Mother, can anybody gain their realization?
Shri Mataji: Yes, most of you can. I would not say I can give realization to Hitler. That “anybody” means even Hitler will stand before me and say that I will shave my mustache, now give me. That’s too much for me. You must see truthfully, honestly if you have your own preconceived ideas about yourself. Then God says alright, go ahead, try your luck. But if you think that you haven’t yet found out and that you have to see then if you’re humble about it it works out, it does. I think in the West all those that came to me got realization except for one who is not married, who doesn’t believe in marriage, who doesn’t think that women are anyway good or something like that. But he will also get married and get his realization.
Yogi: Why is it dangerous, Mother, to experiment in the occult? Aren’t we learning something when we do those experiments?
Shri Mataji: Because it is unknown to you. You don’t know what you are up to. We can divide this occult business into 2 sides: one is the right and one is the left side. The movement of your attention to the right or to the left is achieved by many blockages put into the chakras. Because if there is a blockage then the attention cannot move upward. It starts moving sideways and they can block your Nabhi Chakra or Agnya Chakra, any one of them and can take advantage of your position when your are not in the center but either on the right or the left. If you go to the left then you run into the area called subconscious and then into collective subconscious where all that is dead from the creation is there.
Now it is said that cancer is caused or triggered by proteins. They don’t say dead souls as we say. Proteins 58 and 52 could trigger cancer, and these come from the area which is built within us since our creation, meaning collective subconscious. All kinds of these diseases like myelitis and leukemia come from the left side.
The right side movement only the physical problems I’ve seen. Right side if you move, then you get very ego oriented and you meet people who are in the supraconscious and then into the collective supraconscious where all the ambitious people are dead and still hovering around.
Doctors do not know about them much. But these people can work out these spiritual centers where they can cure people, do operations and all sorts of things through these dead spirits. They can also work out things like Hitler did because he used supraconscious forces from the lamas. He learnt all this from the Tibetan Lamas and they used them to entice people with this idea of a superior race and he killed so many Jews.
So the supraconscious or the collective supraconscious has forces which are extremely dominating and they take you away from your heart and give you a very bloated idea about yourself. Such a movement could be very violent and injurious to the whole society.
Such people suffer from heart attacks from the over activity. Then they can suffer also from diseases like diabetes, liver and all those diseases which look very simple like cirrhosis of liver.
But the worst is that they are extremely harmful. They become very powerful, gathering such ego-oriented people and try to put very aggressive ideologies. They are mostly at the helm of affairs. Their only ambition is to be at the heads where they can take countries into disasters.
So anything is possible if they are into collective supraconscious state where these dead souls act on them and give them sinister ideas and all kinds of dirty politics can come out of it or political problems may come out of it, where they have no control over themselves and they get lost into
that and the people are harmed who cannot control it. That force acting on them as what has happened in Germany is a very good example.
Then fanaticism also could be leading you to the same area, so its not only the occult that takes you to supraconscious area but fanaticism or any some sort of over martyrdom idea of “The nation is mine and I can dominate anyone” as Americans definitely believe in freedom. They must know that they are rendered absolutely slaves by these souls which attack them either from the left or to the right.
I must give you an incident to explain this. Some people came from America to see me, three of them. They told me they were scientists – I don’t know their names, it was about 10 years back –and they asked me that they have come to me to learn how to fly in the air. I said, “Who sent you here, of all the places?”
They said, “Would you please tell us how to fly in the air?”
I said, “I don’t want to tell you that. Its not proper because this is only done through souls which are dead, ambitious, who try to give you a feeling that they are taking out your souls and it’s a very dangerous thing. Tomorrow they will take some child’s soul away, talk to the child and he will feel what a communication he had with the child. The next day the parents will find the child is dead because the soul can’t return back to the child. It’s a very common phenomenon these days. People find suddenly the child is dead while asleep. It is because of these tricks people are trying on so many souls that they try to take out the souls and use them and then the souls cannot return back, so the child is dead.
But they would not be convinced when I told them they would be enslaved by this because they said Russia is doing the same. I said, “If Russia is doing something wrong why do you want to do it? You will be enslaved. You believe in freedom so why do you want to do it? “They said, “No, because Russians are doing it and we must beat them.”
I said, “This is a very short sighted policy. You must not think in those terms because it’s very dangerous for them. They will get possessed and you will get possessed. We’ll have a set of 2 nations possessed. What is going to happen to this world? So why do you want to do it?” But then I asked them, “You have to tell me who sent you here.”
They told me the name of one, Patanjali. He is a journalist in Bombay who came to see me because he was suffering from a disease like this. His body use to go out and his soul use to fly out and his wife was so much worried. She gave me lots of proofs that what he was talking was true. Then I had to treat him for a month regularly, everyday to get rid of that problem. I said, “He could not have told you to come here. But if he has I don’t understand. If I can’t remove the disease, can I put back the disease into you?”
But they would not be happy with me because if I told them that I can teach you flying, I am sure they would have been very happy. But it is rather difficult for me to tell lies, even if I want to please you. I don’t want to tell you lies because ultimately it turns out to be a horrible thing.
Now the worst thing that can happen to human beings who get into occults is they get epilepsies. All mental diseases are from occult practices. People can commit suicide, people can become violent. You can make the complete mob a very violent mob, like you know an organization call Anand Marg tried to kill people. We have many disciples from Anand Marg who are coming to us and what you find, even them, they built in a kind of a system within themselves that violence is the way you worship God.
In occult you can take people to such wretched state that you can teach the people that sex can take you to God. Imagine, Christ who said, “Thou shalt not have adulterous eyes.” The people who start teaching you that sex will take you to God, you have to accept. It’s against Christ, which is anti God. How can people accept such a nonsensical thing which is not religion. If they read any traditional book about God they will know this is not religion.
So occult can take you to these things, but the worst is that it’s dangerous for people in America, that they believe that we should get traditions and if they do not see to the subtler side of the tradition there are very great chances that they may fall prey to occult because apparently occult seems to be the tradition to them. Or sometimes it depends on certain gurus who were here about 50 years back or so who talked about Upanishads, about Gita, this, that. They talked but were not realized souls and they established themselves. Some of them even went to America and talked about these big things with big mouths and people believe that they are traditional. It is not true.
Tradition of Indian life has been to get self realization, is Kundalini awakening. That’s what Adi Shankaracharaya has repeated in the 6th century and I am repeating it again. So the tradition of this country has been throughout that a person must get his second birth which is a tradition of Christian religion, tradition of Islam, a tradition of Bhuddhism, of Jainism, of Tao and of Zen. I can’t think of any traditional, real religion who has not talked of self realization and even when they talk of Kundalini, they say such horrible things about Kundalini that one can’t believe it has anything to do with Divine things. If it is the Kundalini which gives you self realization, how can Christ talk about a Kundalini which was harmful, which was troublesome. Because these people don’t know the way or method and they have no right to the Kundalini. They are doing something else which is occult.
Occult is the most dangerous thing because it is coming from the satanic forces. When a person dies if he is a normal person he just dies and lives in the other world till he has to take another birth. But if a person dies and if he has satanic forces within him, one of the sadism, he takes back at the supraconscious area and who is a machoist stays in this collective subconscious area.
So there is satanic forces, so going to a cult is just enslaving yourself to satanic forces. There was a guru who went to America, who died there, and was very much influential with parapsychology and all that. If I tell parapsychology they’re satanic they are not going to believe.
Dealing with spirits is not allowed in Christianity at all. That is correct, not only in Christianity but in any religion. If you read Kabir Das, he has written pages after pages about it. But this guru has collected 6 crores worth of diamonds and the 2 disciples are fighting for that.
Another guru has collected 6 thousand crores by telling you that he will make you fly. You must use your brains. Americans are supposed to have brains but I don’t know what happens when it comes to human machinery. They don’t understand. And this is what it is: that if you want to ruin
yourself you take to occult. It sounds fantastic to begin with. It sounds very well to go there but it’s all advertising department of the hell.
Yogi: We’ll be asking them to go along on the Australian tour, so we’ll have them in different settings.
Shri Mataji: Australians to ask me?
Yogi: It’s all right. The questionnaire won’t be on the film, just your answers and the commentary will be over the top. We’ll put the film together in America.
Shri Mataji: All right. Done now? Happy?
I’m sorry I have to say the truth. As a mother, already I see that people are drowning themselves into trouble – all your problems of vandalism, hooliganism, of drugs and things that you take, of violence, of bad marriages. All your social problems come because you have allowed the occult to grow there, and ultimately it comes to power, also. So be careful about it.
Yogi: Mother, I would like to ask a question about Shri Krishna, about devotional songs and when we sing praise and it opens our Vishuddhi. What is the right way to have devotion and using our Vishuddhi, so its related to America?
Shri Mataji: You must know that it is the Virata. Once you become one with the Virat, then if you sing any praise to Him it goes to Him directly. Any praise is sufficient, but you should not be one sided – all the time singing praises, one gets tired. So what you have to do is to also meditate and
sometimes when the heart is full you must sing. But specialization is not the way we have in Sahaja Yoga. I would suggest that some people really sing horridly, so they should not sing. They must try to improve their Vishuddhi and try to have a better voice.
Christine had a very bad voice and after realization her voice became very sweet. So please try to improve your Vishuddhis so that whatever you sing is melodious at least to the ear. That’s the best way. You are alright, you are melodious, but your voice should not sound with aggressiveness to God but with surrendering. You see sometimes this music is sung in such a way that you are just drowned inside and you don’t know how many are on top of you. It should be sung in such a way that there is no aggression of the music but a kind of a soothing effect, for everyone, and every style should be sung, every style is good, and try to find out better styles if possible. It should not be pleasing to you but pleasing to Gods. And the best judgement comes through vibrations.
Now we have one American lady with us, I would like you to give her realization. Is she there?
Yogi: She’s gone, she had to go at 12.
Shri Mataji: So she’s gone away. Alright, she’ll come back. She’s worried about the women of India.
Yogi: Mother, a question from Tokai. The Michelangelo statue in Rome of Moses, as the adiguru… has two short horns…
Shri Mataji:[UNCLEAR it means that] the open Sahasrara and that a guru always uses these horns to hit the disciples to clear out the left and right. That’s why a mother guru is a simple thing. She cannot get angry more than 10 minutes. They have 2 horns and they go on pushing into your…
[Shri Mataji starts talking about travel arrangements.]