Newspaper Interview

Ashram in Le Raincy, Le Raincy (France)

1983-06-17 Press Interview, Paris, France, DP-RAW, 47'
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Newspaper Interview, Ashram in Le Raincy, France, June 17th, 1983

Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?

Journalist: [Inaudible]

Shri Mataji: All right, she will translate it. Thank you.

Journalist: Alors ma Mère, je représente un journal d’Alsace, L’Alsace, à Mulhouse et je suis Réalisé à Mulhouse mais je viens vous parler en tant que journaliste.

Marie [translator]: I represent a newspaper in Mulhouse. I come to talk to you as a journalist but I got my Realization in Mulhouse.

Shri Mataji: All right, you come here, I think that would be better. Because if you have to translate him to Me and I’ll be able- I’m very happy to meet you and to hear that you have come from Mulhouse and we have some Sahaja Yogis in Mulhouse. They have not been there. I’m very happy you could come here and I’m very happy about it.

Marie: He is very happy and very moved to meet you. And before starting the interview he’d like to ask you if you, one day, think you will come to Mulhouse.

Shri Mataji: Yes, I will definitely. But first, I must apologize for getting late because he knows that my grand-children just arrived so I was late. So, please apologize. I will definitely come one day to Mulhouse, no doubt.

Marie: You are the master of time.

Shri Mataji: Thank you.

Journalist: On vous nomme Mère. Est-ce parce que vous avez réactualisé le Sahaja Yoga ou parce que vous vous dites l’incarnation de la Vierge Marie ou pour ces deux raisons à la fois?

Marie: People call you Mother, is it because you have re-actualized Sahaja Yoga as a reality or because you are the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary or for both reasons?

Shri Mataji: It’s a very direct question. [Laughter]

And if I say “yes” to both answers, I don’t know what will be the reactions. So, I’m rather worried to say. Because they crucified Christ and I have to be tactful.

Journalist: Le mot “yoga” est très employé en Occident depuis trente années. Vous dites que le Sahaja Yoga n’est pas une secte, vous ne manipulez pas le système nerveux et vous parlez de méthode et de système. Quelle méthode et quel système et pour quelle Réalisation?

Marie: The word “yoga” has been used in all sorts of contexts in the last thirty years in the West. You say that Sahaja Yoga is not a cult, you don’t manipulate the nervous system and you talk about methods and systems. What methods and what systems and for what Realization?

Shri Mataji: I’ll answer these questions one by one if you don’t mind. First of all, the word “yoga” means “union”, union with the Divine. But in ancient time, people used to observe a different style of life, where, till the age of about twenty to twenty-five years, the students lived with a Realized soul as their guru. And when some of them were selected for this Realization, they were taught how to maintain the balance. So, there were eight folds, practices which were used. But that system doesn’t exist today. But we do use also physical exercises sometimes. I’ll give you an analogy to understand.

You see, if you have the room and you clean it any amount, you cannot bring the light in. But if you can bring the light in, then you can see the room, very clearly. But if you bring the light first, the room can be seen, how dirty it is and then you can clean the room easily. So, instead of cleaning the room first, which is a very difficult and too long method, first the light is brought in, in this modern Sahaja Yoga. So, one can see the condition of the room and can improve it without difficulty. Because when you see, it is easy to accept the problems within yourselves. But without seeing it, one doesn’t work hard.

Now, ‘yoga’ has another meaning. It also means “yukati” means “deftness” [yukti or kauzala], or the trick [yukti], you can say, trick of the deftness. So, after getting your union or your yoga, you must learn the trick of the deftness. But before getting the divine energy within you, how can you learn the trick?

All right, now this is for yoga, but the modern yoga, as it is, is very dangerous because if you just pay attention to the physical side, you neglect your emotional, mental and spiritual sides.

All right, now the second question was, out of that? I have told him also about Self-realization. Self-realization is that there is the reflexion of God All-mighty within us which is the light, as I said, in our heart, as Spirit. And his Power is the Holy Ghost. In Sanskrit language, it is called as Adi Shakti, is the Primordial Mother. Now, that is reflected as the Kundalini.

Within the human beings, this Power is separated from God All-mighty. And this Power is our pure desire and when she is awakened, she rises through six subtle centres within us, integrating us and pierces through the fontanel area which is our real baptism. And then you can feel the cool breeze of the Holy Ghost coming out of your head.

So, though the Spirit resides in the heart, the seat of the Spirit is on top of your head, thus the union takes place, the yoga with the Spirit takes places. And thus, the Spirit starts enlightening our being.

Christ has talked about the coming of the Holy Spirit also. He said clearly that a Comforter and a Redeemer and a Councillor- these are three Powers into which the Holy Ghost manifests.

Journalist: Selon vous, Mère, sommes-nous à l’approche d’un nouveau temps messianique?

Marie: According to you, Mother, are we coming close to a new time of the Messiah?

Shri Mataji: Yes, it is. The New Messiah, if you mean the one who is going to destroy the world, the one who is going to come on a white horse. But before that, this time is given to you and you have to all take your Realization. Then those who are Realized souls will be selected out of the rest. At that time, Christ will come back with his eleven destroying powers. He’ll exercise no forgiveness and all such people will be destroyed. But one should have, now, compassion on themselves and they should take heed and achieve their Realization which is so simple.

Journalist: L’Occident a-t-il perdu définitivement sa spiritualité?

Marie: Has West lost finally, I mean, forever, its spirituality?

Shri Mataji: Not finally yet.

Marie: Not forever, not finally.


You’d better translate, indeed.

Because the very great seekers who were concerned about the future of the West, very bravely took birth in the West. Of course, they were misled a little bit, also were influenced by wrong ideals. But basically, they are great people and they re going to bring the West into the kingdom of God. And you are one of them.


Journalist: Mère, je vous ai entendu, dans un enregistrement, dire que Léonard de Vinci et Mozart étaient des êtres Réalisés. Est-ce que vous pourriez préciser cette chose?

Marie: Mother, I heard on a tape, I heard you say that Leonardo da Vinci and Mozart were Realized people. Can you explain a little bit, can you develop?

Shri Mataji: Yes. And Michelangelo and so many: Blake. So many of them. They tried to express through their art the Spirit that was manifesting in them. You can make out from their art that they were Realized souls. And a person like Blake who was a great saint, Michelangelo another great saint, because when their art is expressed, you can feel the Divine vibrations. That’s the best way to judge through vibratory awareness, to judge who is real and who is not.

Even Lenin was a Realized soul. But, he was so impressed, I mean he was so much forced into the party system, that he had to accept certain things in life.

The majority has not been kind to the saints. I would say more the rulers and the people at the helm of affairs. There have been some politicians, like Abraham Lincoln, who were Realized souls too.

Journalist: La Kundalini est-elle le souffle du Saint-Esprit, bien sûr, mais comment se fait-il que dans la Bible on n’en parle pas?

Marie: Is the Kundalini the breeze, the wind of the Holy Spirit, but why is it that in the Bible it’s not spoken about?

Shri Mataji: No, it is said.

Marie: In that form?

Shri Mataji: Yes, they have called it the cool breeze of the Holy Spirit. But it’s not accentuated much because this Saint-Paul, he was not a Realized soul, he did not see Christ. I was surprised how he came into the Bible itself. And he was a very dominating person and a great organizer. So he has also added or destructed perhaps from Bible because he wrote many letters which are in there.

Moreover, the disciples of Christ were not as intelligent as you are and they did not believe in Christ till they saw him resurrected. It was a very difficult task. But to understand Bible you must read other books which are in other scriptures. For example, the background of Christ could be understood better if you read Devi Mahatmya where it is described very clearly how his worth was manifested, why it was immaculate. If the Jews read about it they will definitely believe in Christ.

Journalist: Est-ce que je pourrais demander à Mère ce qu’elle pense d’une coutûme des Templiers, de Bernard de Clairvaux, qui est dans leur initiation, j’ai trouvé un texte qui en parle, ils nomment la Kundalini et c’est une initiation basée à la base du dos, où le maître embrassait le disciple de manière à ce que la Kundalini se dégage et monte vers la fontanelle. C’était au XII ème siècle cela.

Marie: Can he ask you what you think of a tradition that was existing in an order, which existed in the 12 century in Europe, in France, called the knight and the Templar. And they had an initiation, a process by which the person to be initiated, the Kundalini was called and she was correctly placed at the base of the spine, and the master would kiss the base of the spine to wake the Kundalini up.

Shri Mataji: That was great.

Journalist: Lorsque Mère dit que les oeuvres de Mozart montrent qu’il était Réalisé et que son oeuvre propage des vibrations, est-ce que les engagements philosophiques de Mozart ne la gènent pas?

Marie: When you say that Mozart’s was Realized and that his musical works produce vibrations, don’t the political involvements of Mozart and his positions annoy you?

Shri Mataji: They are not good. No, the queen herself was a Realized soul.

Marie: Which queen?

Shri Mataji: The queen with whom Mozart was involved.

Sahaja Yogini: Marie-Therese.

Marie: And he was a Freemason.

Shri Mataji: Yes, you see, the Freemason started with a sensible idea like all other religions. But human beings know how to make everything horrible out of something beautiful. And all the ideas are lost and everywhere you find the same thing. For example, we can’t blame for the way Christianity is today, we can’t blame Christ.

Journalist: Il y a encore quatre ou cinq questions, ça fait rien?

Marie: He has still got five questions, is that all right?

Shri Mataji: Please. Please, very good questions they are. But they are rather direct and I don’t know how people will react to your paper.


Journalist: Je vais les synthéiser.

Shri Mataji: You’d better re-edit it.

Marie: He is going to make a synthesis.

Shri Mataji: Ah. Yes, you just make it, you see, because there was one gentleman who came to see me in Lausanne. And he went back and told his editor that: “I’ve found the truth and everything.” And then he went on leave.


And the editor, you see, was so shocked that he said that: “Our correspondent was completely blown over boat by this lady.”

Journalist: Est-ce que l’article est paru en fait?

Marie: Did the article get published?

Shri Mataji: Yes, they did, but it had a bad effect, you see, people thought this lady is a sort of whitewashing some people or who, God knows because the way he put the picture was just the other way round. [Shri Mataji is laughing.] Raymond will tell you.

Raymond: Tout simplement les titres ont été changés complètement et puis, un autre collaborateur du journal a fait une sorte d’edito complètement contradictoire. Alors avec la manchette ils ont fait, en ridiculisant Mère, disant: “Elle sait tout, c’est le dernier truc qu’on a trouvé.” [“Simply the titles were changed completely and then another contributor to the newspaper made a kind of completely contradictory editorial, so with the headline they were ridiculing Mother, saying, ‘She knows everything, it’s the last fashion that has been found.'” ]

Journalist: Que la Mère ne s’inquiète pas ce n’est pas ce qui va se produire.

Marie: Don’t worry, that will not happen this time.

[Shri Mataji is laughing.]

Journaliste: La nouvelle dimension de la conscience telle qu’elle s’éveille chez vos disciples, les prédispose-t-elle à une attitude de témoin ou de citoyen actif dans la vie quotidienne? J’oppose témoin passif au citoyen opératif.

Marie: The new dimension of awareness as it is awakened in your disciples, does it prepare them or predispose them to an attitude of passive witnessing or active citizenship in life and in daily life?

Shri Mataji: They become dynamic. I’ve seen people coming from drugs and all sorts of lethargic things where they had become reclusive because they were fed up of the modern problems. And they have become so very active. So many alcoholics, you see.

There was a very great musician in India, he had become an alcoholic and the art was about to be lost. Now he has given up completely drinking and he’s a great artist again. He is a greater artist now.

Journalist: Quels sont, selon vous, les péchés et les tares de notre actuelle civilisation? Fondamentaux.


Marie: What are, according to you, the sins and the falls, the basic sins and falls of our modern Western civilization?

Shri Mataji: I think I’d better tell you about the virtues because I can’t count the sins, you know. The greatest thing that you have in modern times is that people have such earnest desire, that there are such great seekers. That is the greatest virtu of modern times. Whatever they might have done makes no difference. Self-realization is like an egg becoming a bird. The bird doesn’t show any blemish of the shell of an egg. Once you are transformed, you can easily shed off the shell part and useless parts of the egg.

[To Marie] Is it all right? Loudly, I think.

All right, What is the next question?

Journalist: Ce qui semble remarquable dans votre communauté, notre communauté, c’est qu’il n’y a rien de mercantile, vous ne demandez pas d’argent, vous ne sollicitez pas, et de l’extérieur, je crois que cela donne un sentiment de pureté, de nouveauté.

Marie: What is quite new in your community, in our community, is that there is no soliciting for money, no mercantile aspect. And I think to people outside, it gives the image of something very new, very pure.

Shri Mataji: Yes. We don’t have any business enterprises in Sahaja Yoga. But if some Sahaja Yogis want, they can join together and start any business enterprise on their own. And they become very successful also. But whatever they do, they do it in the rightest manner. They become very honest, responsible, and happy people. And they charm everyone.


Journalist: J’ai encore deux questions et cela sera terminé.

Marie: Two more questions.

Shri Mataji: All right, please, please.

Journalist: Mère, que lisez-vous comme auteurs français malgré la défiance que vous avez pour certains philosophes français m’a-t-on dit?

Marie: Mother, which books do you read of French authors even though I have been told that you have a great diffidence towards some French philosophers?

Shri Mataji: No, the ones I have heard are – the ones about whom I’ve read and heard have not been very kind to human beings I think. Like Sartre and all these. But Maupassant. He was not a philosopher but a story-teller, I mean in the stories he expressed very well. There are many others, I just now, don’t remember their list, but so many.

Marie: Zola.

Shri Mataji: Zola, Emile Zola, yes.

Marie: Victor Hugo, did you read Victor Hugo?

Shri Mataji: Yes, no doubt.

Journalist: Victor Hugo.

Shri Mataji: Yes, that too. Victor Hugo was great, absolutely, no doubt. They didn’t write philosophies but they wrote stories mostly. They were novelists.

Journalist: Dernière question, un petit renseignement, pour Mère, quel est le plus beau mot, celui qui est la plus universel peut-être, à part le mot Mère?

Marie: For you, Mother, what is the most beautiful and the most universal word apart from the word “mother”?

Shri Mataji: Father.

[Laughter; applause.]

Great, thank you very much, thank you. Nice interview it was, we must thank you very much. Very nice questions, you see. That’s a question coming from a Realized soul you can see it clearly. And the creator of this Notre-Dame I must mention, the one who has made the statue of Notre-Dame, of Notre-Dame’s statue, you see, the one after Mary and the child. He was a Realized soul.

Journalist: Notre Dame de Paris?

Shri Mataji: Yes, but I could not find the name of the gentleman. Tremendous vibrations come from the statue. You can go and see also, it’s tremendous. So, thank you very much. May God bless.

Can I take your leave now? I just ask. Can I take his leave now?

Journalist: Je vous en prie. [Please.]

Shri Mataji: Thank you very much. Thank you.

H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi