Excerpts of 1983-0824 Radio 74 Interview – 2
(09:55) Interviewer: I’m quite interested in the idea of reincarnation that I believe. It is not … and it is not in the Indian religions and what do You believe an think about that?
Shri Mataji: Reincarnations of human beings has to be there. We can understand it that, if you are born say – today as a Jew or you are born as a Christian or you are born as a Muslim, you adhere to one aspect of life, but you have not seen the other aspect. I have seen now people while they are coming to Me when I went to a Muslim country, Iran. Now it’s all finished, but that time. And I was amazed that I saw this Muslims and they looked like … [sounds like ‘astorned ?’] Brahmins of last lives. You see, once they went like a pendulum they have moved from one extreme to another and that extreme to this extreme. To correct yourself God almighty’s compassion and love has to give you chance and that’s how He gives. Now, if you ask for something too much, you get it and you learn a lesson that: ‘Oh, that was not good. I should not have ask for it’.
Interviewer: In this reincarnation idea I once have an idea, that to take just an obvious example in my own experience in the thought, that if a white man hung a black man and they had a race war that the white man would come back one day as a black man who was hung and if the black man were nice he would come back as something else nicer. Now, is that correct in other words, if you really hate and you really try and harm that you would come back in another life as the object of the thing that you hate it?
Shri Mataji: No, is the other way round. What happens? Now, if say as the white man has [… word ambiguous] the black man as you said it and has hanged you, than he will become a spirit – the black man and when the white man will take is birth he will harm him. He’ll possess him and he’ll get all kinds of diseases. Even he can get cancer from that because all this myelitis and all this diseases come from this kind of a thing, which is collective subconscious. The entry from the collective subconscious. So this is what is the result today. When people they tell Me that there are fake gurus from India who are possessing here and who are take out they’re money and all that, that I said that is just there now, it’s a subtle attack, you see. (12:39)
1983-0824 Radio 74 Interview – 2
(16:28) Interviewer: How would You speak to people who feel that they are bound by poverty. There are people in wealthy countries who’s poverty line incomes would seen like enormous riches to people in other countries. How do You speak to people who feel they are bound by poverty?
Shri Mataji: Those who are very poor are just the same as very rich. You see, the very poor have the same problem as the very rich have. As the rich have lost all their virtues, very rich, the poor have also lost all their virtues. The thing is, one is on a ego trip another is on a superego trip. The central path has to be taken. The central people first get their realization. Those who are not very rich and those who are not very poor. Those who are very successful are very ego-oriented. Those who are very highly place are also very ego-oriented. Those who are very poor are superego. Why mean they think: We are so miserable, we are no good, nothing. So the people who has to work this evolution now in the mass scale are the people who are in the center. Neither very rich nor very poor. But once these people get to it then the poverty can be cured very easily. Mostly like people in India you will say that people are poor – of course in a way sometimes poverty is a blessing I would say. You see, there is love for children, there is love for family, there is togetherness. But too much poverty comes to a country when it is too more under influence of the dead spirits, like in India, we have now Bengal for example. Bengal is a place where they have used lot of these dead powers and this witchcraft and this and that and that’s why the poverty is there. So, if you have used this witchcraft and all these, like Bihar, is another place, UP, where there lots of this tantrikas and these horrible witchcraft people, which have brought in this superego style. It comes from the collective subconscious and the people who are collectively supraconscious, the worst of that was Hitler. Hitler was… [interruption] (18:50)
[Track: 1983-0824 Interview Geneva]
… Exhaustion causes the diseases and sicknesses, even mental sicknesses at different levels. Now this exhaustion takes place because we go to extremes, you see. The extreme use of things that’s why we get exhausted. And these exhaustions are fulfilled or nourished or, we can say, vitalized by these, so the person feels all right. It’s very simple.
Lady interviewer: So what Western medicine or what medicine in general calls organic diseases. is nothing more than an imbalance of the forces of love and the Spirit.
Shri Mataji: Of course, of course, no doubt. But I would put it like this, that modern medical sciences as they are, they talk of the autonomous nervous system. Autonomous…
Lady interviewer: Autonomous nervous system.
Shri Mataji: In that, we have got the left side autonomous nervous system and right side autonomous nervous system as sympathetic nervous system. And in the centre, we have (the)parasympathetic nervous system.
Now, the sympathetic nervous system acts for all our emergencies, for all our extreme behaviour. And these two form the centre – and in the centre lies the parasympathetic nervous system.
Now the parasympathetic nervous system has got limited energy which it supplies to the sympathetic to keep a balance. But if you go beyond limits, when you exhaust it completely then (the)parasympathetic also fails and there is no balance brought in.
Now if you ask any doctor and if he is honest, he will tell you that they don’t know anything about (the) parasympathetic nervous system. Now, who is this “auto”? We should find out. This “auto” is the Spirit. And when this Kundalini rises, she enlightens and nourishes this parasympathetic nervous system which again, by itself balances.
I don’t have to tell you that you (mustn’t) drink, don’t do (it), I never say that. You yourself will not do it because religion gets enlightened within you, the living religion and you just don’t do it. I mean, you just don’t do it because your attention is not there anymore, finished.
Lady interviewer: I’ve heard it said that “Never try and give up a bad habit but if you think first on the Lord, think first on God then those things give you up” – they go away.
Shri Mataji: They run away, they run away. You see, there was a gentleman, a doctor. He came to Sahaja Yoga and he lost all his habits. He became (his own) master.
But once he came to Germany, after two months, and he said, “Let me try” the wine he likes. “So, let me try the wine, what does it matter?”. And when he drank, he felt horrible , he got all the smell of the molasses in it, he threw it (away)and started vomiting. He said, “What is this nonsense I have been drinking?”
It (just) happens to you, I mean we have had alcoholics, people who have been taking drugs for years! People came in coma to Me. You won’t believe, they all have given up. I never tell them. I am a mother, I’m not here to dominate or to curb your personality. I’m here to nourish you, to make you grow into your own being to be your own master, to be your own guru.
Lady interviewer: Then suppose that somebody listening says, “My greatest desire, my greatest lack rather, is companionship. I’m living in this town, I’m alone, I don’t have any friends, I go to the office every day and I just come home at night to a lonely place. What can I do to find companionship and love?”
Shri Mataji: You’ll get companions and companions and you’ll have no time to feel alone. That’s one thing (that is) definitely promised in Sahaja Yoga. Because what happens, you become collectively conscious. And once you become collectively conscious, there are so many who become collectively conscious with you because it’s a mass thing that is happening today. It used to be individual before now it’s mass, that’s what I have done. That’s my- I should say you (could) say it’s my discovery, how to do a mass evolution.
Lady interviewer: How to do the mass?
Shri Mataji: Mass, en-masse, this happens en-masse.
Lady interviewer: En-masse?
Shri Mataji: En-masse.
Lady interviewer: Collectively?
Shri Mataji: Collectively. So, thousands of them can get Realization at the same time.
You’ll be amazed, I have taught one gentleman from India who has come. He has given Realization to ten thousand people himself in India.
Lady interviewer: How do you give Realization?
Shri Mataji: I mean there are no words to say, it manifests I mean to say. There is no giving as such.
Lady interviewer: So, you open yourself to the being, [unclear] brilliant?
Shri Mataji: No, you see, it is simple, as an analogy I would say like a lamp is ready, say, a candle is ready. Now another candle which is enlightened can enlighten another candle, isn’t it? What do you do? Nothing.
Lady interviewer: So, you just…you just are.
Shri Mataji: Manifest, yes, you are. And you become that.
Lady interviewer: And-
Shri Mataji: then you become the same, you can give it to others.
Lady interviewer: So, you are recognised, each person that is ready for that enlightenment recognises there.
Shri Mataji: I don’t rationalize.
Lady interviewer: Yes, [inaudible].
Shri Mataji: I don’t judge anyone. I just stand there and people put their hands toward Me. And finished! Some people are declared to be the worst sinners, this, that, they got it. I don’t know how people judge others; you see? It’s better to leave it to God to judge; I don’t judge anyone. And it works out. Thousands can get it so what is there? There’s no time for judging anymore left now. Those who want should have it.
Lady interviewer: What about somebody that listens and says, “But I’ve lived three quarters of my life and I realize now that I’ve done the wrong thing. I took the wrong path and nothing is working outright. And I look back at my life and I see a series of crashing failures and broken relationships and all those things. How can…..?”
Shri Mataji: You see, for such people, I would say that they must think of the present, not of the past nor of the future. Because(the) past doesn’t exist, it’s finished. And the future also doesn’t exist. Think of the present. Now, I am before you: you want to have your Realization, so have it. Why think of the past? Forget it, it’s not important. And (the)more you’ll think of these things you will develop (unclear) which will give Me trouble because I’ll have to clear out one side of your centre, you see? So, not to feel guilty. Whatever has happened, has happened. Everything is forgiven, forget it! You’d better forgive yourself.
Lady interviewer: So, forgiveness is very much a part of the-
Shri Mataji: Of course, that is the greatest weapon we have . That’s one of the mantras we have to use that you forgive yourself and you forgive others.
Lady interviewer: Then, basically, the enlightenment runs through all the thought systems as you said in the beginning of our conversation. That much of what you say is Christian, getting rid of the guilt and the forgiveness, it runs through other religions as well.
Shri Mataji: Everywhere, they are just the same, you see, you have to just see how they are related to each other. Christ himself has said that, “Those who are not against Me are with Me”. Who are those? Nobody has tried to find out.
It is said that, “I’ll appear before you like tongues of flames”. What is that? These are the centres. It’s clearly said. Even Muhammad Sahib has said that you have a power in your bone, triangular bone called as Assas. Even the Greeks believed in that. Not only that but Muhammad Sahib has gone to this extent to say that, “When the Resurrection time will come, your hands will speak”. But no one wants to talk of Resurrection, everybody wants to talk of the Doomsday. Nobody wants to talk of the Comforter, they want to talk about the white horse. But when the white horse will come, no argument, no explanation, no interviews, that will be the last sorting out. So, please, this is a very important time. Everyone must know that we haven’t achieved anything so far, whatever we have been doing.
So, give us a chance. We have to be fair to ourselves and to our Creator. Because he has taken so much care to make you a human being. He has put in all his efforts. He’s anxious that you enter into his kingdom. You must give him a chance and don’t stick onto things, don’t get misidentified. What have you got? Just measure that. Now what you have to get is so simple.
[Cut in the audio]
Now, you can get it now. This is the time.
Lady interviewer: Today we are very privileged to have as our guest Shri Mataji who is going to be available for you if you would like to hear her speak in greater depth on the 29,30& 31 of August at 7.30 (p.m.) in the communal “salle communale” at Chêne-Bougeries [Geneva] it is on the “rue du Vallon” at the end of the twelve tram line. I’m just looking at her time here because I would like to take you all there in du Vallon, here it is. You know we’ve only got twelve minutes left. I don’t want – I would like you to say what you want to say, but I would very much… I am quite interested in the idea of reincarnation that I believe….did it not start and is it not in all of the Indian religions ? What do you believe and think about that?
Shri Mataji: Reincarnations of human beings has to be there, we can understand it, that if you are born say, today as a Jew, or you are born as a Christian, or you are born as a Muslim, you adhere to one aspect of life, but you have not seen the other aspects. I’ve seen now people, while they are coming to Me….I went to a Muslim country, Iran, now it’s all finished but at that time… I was amazed, I saw these Muslims and they looked like staunch Brahmins of last life, you see. Once they went like a pendulum, they have moved from one extreme to another extreme and that extreme to this extreme. To correct yourself, God Almighty who is compassion and love has to give you a chance. And that’s how he gives. Now if you ask for something too much, you get it. And you learn a lesson that, “Oh, that was no good. I should not have asked for it”.
Lady interviewer: In the reincarnation idea, I once had an idea , to take just an obvious example in my own experience in the south that if a white man hanged a black man and they had a race war, the white man would come back one day as a black man who was hanged. And if the black man would die, he would come back as something else nicer. Now is that creating, in other words, that if you really hate and you really try and harm other people you would come back in another life as the object (victim) of the thing that you hated? That could be possible?
Shri Mataji: Do you know, it is the other way round. What happens, now say as the white man has aggressed a black man, as you said (he) has hanged him, then he (the black man) will become a spirit [bhoot] and when the white man will take his birth, he(the black man) will harm him, he’ll possess him. He (The white man will get all kinds of diseases, even he can get cancer from that because all these maladies and all these diseases come from this kind of a thing which is a collective subconscious, the entry from the collective subconscious. So, this is what is the result. Today when people tell Me that (about) their fake gurus from India who are possessing here and who are taking out their money and all that, I said, “It’s just (because) they are now a subtle attack”, you see?
Lady interviewer: You take no money, do you?
Shri Mataji: No. Why should I? Can you pay for my love?
[Cut in the audio]
Lady interviewer: …And yet you live and you exist.
Shri Mataji: Of course, because, after all, you see, you do something to exist always, don’t you ?.I have a husband who is quite well off so I have no problem. But otherwise, also, Christ was a carpenter. He didn’t take any money from anyone. Only for bad things people take money, I think. When they mesmerize others or do something just to be parasites. These are all parasitic people.
Lady interviewer: Then how does one recognize a fake prophet or a fake person who is leading to the consciousness of Spirit and God from one who is not?
Shri Mataji: We have to understand it in a little subtler way that, you see, a person who just comes for money and asks for your money,(who is) interested in you as a woman or as a man, or as a rich man or a highly placed man, cannot be a real man. That’s one thing. Because there is no interest in these phenomena, I don’t know whose position is what, I just don’t know what somebody is.
And secondly, you must see how pure that person is: whatever he says in his private life, does he do it? Has he credibility about it?
Thirdly, the best way to judge it, what happens to his disciples? Have they got something better than we have? Are they behaving in a better way than we are? Are they more righteous, more moral, more active, more dynamic? We should find out what sort of life they are living. If they just become cabbages, or if they become absolutely recluses, if they become- if they start suffering from all kinds of twitches and things and if they become nervous people, if they get epilepsy and all that, then such a man is a devil. We should come to the right conclusion.
Lady interviewer: So that,” By their fruits, you shall know them””.
Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon.
Lady interviewer: “By their fruits, you shall know them”.
Shri Mataji: Yes, you should. Everything is said in the Bible, very clearly, if you know how to read, that’s all. You see, “by their fruits, you shall know them” What (are) their fruits ? Then, some people claim, somebody said, “He is a Christ”. I said, “All right, let him walk on the water”, that’s all, very simple. Somebody says, “You can fly”. All right, let him (be) put on this Tower of Pisa, you see, which is made for such people, and let us see if they fly! You see, why pay (them) money before seeing if they are flying or not? This is what it is, it is all the work on your ego. You see, they pamper your ego by saying that you can pay them. They think you can buy Americans especially. I must say Americans have this speciality, they think they can buy everything, they can buy London Bridge, they can buy everything, They cannot buy their Spirit.
That’s one thing one must know, you cannot buy God, we cannot recognize God, we have to be!
This is one point. Secondly is that (if he is) a true person he looks after you. He cares for you. He loves you. The true person loves you. There’s forgiveness, kindness. (He) cannot be a person sitting on the seventh floor and talking big, you see. But people are so much enamoured by artificial things that I don’t know how to convince them that they must know what is real and what is not real.
Lady interviewer: How would you speak to people who feel that they are bound by poverty? There are people in wealthy countries whose poverty line incomes would seem like enormous riches to people in other countries, how do you speak to people who feel they are bound by poverty?
Shri Mataji: Those who are very poor are just the same as very rich. You see, the very poor have the same problems that the very rich have, you see. As the rich, very rich, have lost all their virtues, the poor have also lost all their virtues. The thing is one is on an ego trip, and the other is on a superego trip.
[Cut in the audio]
The central path has to be taken; central people get their Realization first, those who are not very rich and those who are not very poor. Those who are very successful are very ego-oriented, those who are very highly placed are very ego-oriented. Those who are very poor are superego, I mean, they think, “We are so miserable, we are no good, nothing”.
So, the people who have to work this evolution now on a mass scale, are the people who are in the centre, neither very rich nor very poor. But then, once these people get to it, then the poverty can be cured very easily. Mostly people like in India, you would say that people are poor- of course, in a way, sometimes, poverty is a blessing, I would say. You see, there is love for children, there is love for family, there is togetherness. But too much poverty comes to a country when it is more under the influence of the dead spirits, like in India. We have now Bengal for example, Bengal is a place where they have used a lot of these dead powers and this witchcraft and this and that. And that’s why the poverty is there.
So, if you have used this witchcraft and all these things like in Bihar another place, U.P. there are a lot of these Tantrikas, these horrible witchcraft people which have brought in this superego style. It comes from the collective subconscious. And the people who are collectively superconscious, the worst of (all) was Hitler, Hitler was-
[Cut in the audio]
Lady interviewer: In line with the Christian teaching of “Think ye first on Me, on your Spirit and all other things shall be added unto you,” then?
Shri Mataji: Are they [inaudible]? You get even your material benefit. All the Sahaja Yogis who have come to Sahaja Yoga have been materially benefited. One and all, it’s hard to find a Sahaja Yogi who’s not materially benefiting. Family-wise, mentally, emotionally, financially, in every way, everybody has been benefiting. And if you see them in a group, you’ll be amazed (at) the kind of a glow they have on their faces. All their problems are solved as far as the healing, the health is concerned, all problems solved!
Lady interviewer: By opening to their Spirit.
Shri Mataji: Yes, because the blessing is the God; we call it as Ritambhara Pragnya, the quality of God by which the Mother Earth creates the seasons. The seasons start expressing themselves in your life. You get so fulfilled.
Lady interviewer: Why do you feel that there is such cynicism rampant about any forms of religion or talk of states of consciousness and (yet)if it comes from feminism, or raising the states of consciousness; there, that’s all right. But if you talk about this in religion, it sets up an enormous cry of alarm. Why do you feel that is?
[END of AUDIO]