Conversation with Sahaja Yogis, Mulhouse, France, 1er September 1983

Like the Father created the world, the Son showed how to resurrect, but the Mother then nourishes, actually, and makes you something, the owner of the whole thing. So, first the God almighty, the father, then the Spirit in the heart, and then now, the Kundalini.
So, after you become one with the Spirit, you become the Spirit. And the powers that the Spirit had before start manifesting in you. So, this is at this consciousness, that we have to rise. The problem is we move in a pendulum, from this to that, like from one extreme to another extreme. But the movement of consciousness is spiral, it moves in a spiral, like the Kundalini. And so, the Mother who is loving, very gently, very kindly, affectionately, manifests her beauty of nourishment.
This kind of unconsciousness I want to work out, because we are a computer in that, say, a server DD, a computer. And another computer, the one we are producing, actually, is our reflection.
Sahaja Yogi: Would you say it again, Mother?
Shri Mataji: You see, we are producing computers outside. They are the reflection of ourselves outside.
Sahaja Yogi: They are the reflection of us as we are the reflection of God.
Shri Mataji: So, whatever we reflect is artificial, man-made. And I was reading an article today, and the gentleman said that thousands and thousands of computers, we may use, we cannot reach the computer that is our own innate intelligence.

[Conversation with Sahaja Yogis about the translation in French. Laughter]

Shri Mataji: Now, you were doing all right. But just to create a bit of humour. Tell them that, “Mother said that we were too serious, it is just to create a bit of humour”.
Sahaja Yogi (about the translator): You become like a computer. [Laughter].
Shri Mataji: So, what said, he said, “When you are seeing something, you don’t think about it. You just see the ego if it is there. You don’t think about it.
So, you have to go to that sate where you don’t think, you just see it. That’s what he would like to say. But he said, “This cannot be done. Because the computer that human beings have produced is the result of that thinking”. I can say the same thing as my own words.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, absolutely.

So, the whole thing is that we have to recognize that within us lies that power. But to raise our consciousness also, even to raise our consciousness, it can be only done through the grace of God, because human beings cannot do it. And once somebody gets that grace, you can do it. But the grace is the quality of the Mother. Because people are worried all over the world about the consciousness.
But here in Mulhouse, I may not make it subtler, but I’ll tell them that these powers are available within you. Because I don’ want to churn their brains, like Mulhouse, you see, churns the brain [The name of the city of Mulhouse means the house of the mill]. But I must tell you, the intellectuals and the stupid ego-oriented people, really churn my brain sometimes, it might break! [Laughter]. They want to go like this, like that, like that, you see. God know what their movement is. The best of it is that we are bracketed with sects, so when we are absolutely against them.

On three days in Geneva, people from various sects came to oppose me and shouted at me. Because they found it dangerous, because I speak against them. But they never speak against themselves, against each other. They are all big friends. Christ has said, “The Satan won’t speak against his own house”.
Sahaja Yogi: But still, they put us together with these people.
Shri Mataji: But there also, I speak about [interruption], I tell about the sects, the horrible things against them. So that, next time, you can show this to your television people. They won’t have any objections. And they’ll like me.
Sahaja Yogi: When Mother rather speak openly against the sects-
Shri Mataji: Openly.

Sahaja Yogi: Mother, just imagine, in the local papers, you are put alongside a class of school children who are learning martial art and judo. Girls, not boys, girls.
Shri Mataji: Is it an offspring of Zen?
Sahaja Yogi: In a way, yes. It can be put to positive purposes, but unfortunately, they don’t emphasise the philosophy, they emphasise the physical part and the violence. It’s a means of self-defence and it’s taught as self-defence, in a very aggressive way.

Shri Mataji: Very good, this food was. She has never given me these sandwiches and I said, “No, I’ must have my last lunch in Mulhouse. I must have”.

This is German, German thing [porcelain]? But Germany is so close.
Sahaja Yogis: No, no, no. [In French: it might be from Limoges]
Shri Mataji: It must be German, the style is. It’s so close, Germany, yes? We went to Freiburg and Basel last time.
Sahaja Yogini: From Germany, from Bavaria.
Sahaja Yogis: Bavaria.
Shri Mataji: It’s Germany.
Marie: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Bavaria is North Germany?
Marie: South. So, München, it’s the south really.
Shri Mataji: South.
Marie: Yes. It’s closer to Austria.
Shri Mataji: Austria, in between.
Marie: It’s North of Austria. Same style of mountains, near Hungary.
Shri Mataji: In Austria, there is one big hill, or we can say, in Vienna, there’s a very big mountainous area. And this is the area which is in between Germany and Austin.
Sahaja Yogi: Is it the Tyrol, Mother? the Austrian Tyrol?
Shri Mataji: And this place was used by the Germans. Then they occupied Austria.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s the Tyrol.
Shri Mataji: Yes. And there now, you see, I think some Germans must have died, or whatever it is, a funny type of a fly is there. In that thing, that no one wants to go inside the forest because if the fly bites you, you can be fainted
Sahaja Yogi: My God.

Shri Mataji: [Marathi].
It’s a German fly, I think.
[Marathi conversation]. There must be some dead spirit or something, I don’t know. A horrible fly is there. So, nobody goes inside the forest. Must be some devils, I’m sure.

Sahaja Yogini: All the devils come from this 15th century.
Shri Mataji: Turkish invasion.
Yes, I saw that. Turkish influence is quite a lot in architecture.
Sahaja Yogini: And the little bread that we ate in the morning, you see, that we call ‘croissant’,
Maire: The ‘croissant’ shape one.
Shri Mataji: Yes. Croissant, comes from them.
Ah!
Marie: They were made to celebrate the victory over the Turks.
Shri Mataji: Oh, I see. Croissant, we eat it.
Marie: So, when the Muslims leave then you eat their symbol. Put it in your coffee and eat it
Shri Mataji: Must be. Because the Turkish influence is too much in the architecture. I was surprised.

[Conversation in French.]
Shri Mataji: And Turkey itself now is in a big mess, Turkey.
Very poor.

Shri Mataji: Kemal Pasha was a good man.
[Foreign language conversation]
Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?
Translator: He was asking if Atatürk was also a good man.
Shri Mataji: Who?
Translator: Atatürk.
Shri Mataji: Atatürk. Imagine, so he was also a Realized soul Kemal Pasha, Atatürk.

Shri Mataji: You see, but Realized souls have no place in religious activity. No one accepted them.
Sahaja Yogi: They couldn’t get a place, because nobody would have accepted them.
Shri Mataji: I was telling them that Mc Enroe is a Realized soul. Borg is. Two styles. But both are. And Mc Enroe is a person, always in [unclear], he tells himself, “John, behave yourself “. He always talks in a third person.
But he can’t bear the that people trying to insult him. Because, you see, it’s too much for a Realized soul to bear insult from a person who is not even a Spirit.
So, this time, I told them that I heard, I read in the paper, that he’s a- somebody tried to say something to him sarcastically many a time. So, he threw some sawdust and he was asked to leave the court. And he was given punishment for that and he cannot pray now for some time. But it’s very sad.
Because how many people he entertains, makes them happy, joyous? And one horrible mosquito-like fellow comes from there and tries, tries to disturb the play, disturb the thing and you can’t say anything to him because –
Because under the democratic law, you must treat everyone equally and tolerate everybody’s nonsense equally.
Look, I was speaking yesterday I have not even finished my speech, and one man got up and he started speaking so loudly, insulting me. And he went out and there were people trying to sympathize with him that he must have his saying. Now who is he? I mean, I’ve not yet finished my lecture.
[Hindi conversation]

So, this is like Mc Enroe, I feel. [Laughter]
I’m sorry for him, really. My granddaughter always supports him, the little one. So, her mother said, “Why do you always support Mc Enroe?” She said, “Because he’s a Realized soul!”

And the elder one is really, very subtle. Aradna, very intelligent and subtle. So, she told me that, “You know why both has retired?” So, I said, “I don’t know”. “It’s very simple because he’s a Realized soul, Mc Enroe is a Realized soul. So both does not want to go into competition with another Realized soul”.
It’s very- children understand truth so well, for they are not complicated.

Oh, I’ll be able to manage.

Come and have some. I think, you also have lunch.
Marie: We had.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Marie: We had lunch.
Shri Mataji: Where?
Marie: On the road. We had a big sandwich.
Shri Mataji: What about the students, they had? I don’t know if they had. Have they prepared for it or you can go and have lunch.
You can go and have it somewhere. There are men they can go and have it somewhere.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, we can go outside.

Shri Mataji: [Unclear] Where dd you have?
Marie: We’ve made sandwiches before we left, Mother.
Sahaja Yogi: They came by car.
Marie: We left them in the car, and then we stopped somewhere on the motorway for a drink.
Shri Mataji: No but these people can go and have some lunch.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, we’ll go outside.
Shri Mataji: Better go, I think.

At what time is the program?
Sahaja Yogini: 7:30 pm.
Shri Mataji: How far is the hall?
Sahaja Yogini: Fifteen minutes, maybe.
Shri Mataji: Only?
Sahaja Yogini: At least.
Shri Mataji: So that’s very close. So, somebody will give an introduction in French, I think maybe, anyone who feels like.
Sahaja Yogini: I think, Shri Mataji, we will wait for Arnaud’s arrival.
Shri Mataji: And then he can translate.
Marie: Who’s, translating, Mother?
Shri Mataji: You can try, you can translate.
Marie: All right, Mother.

[Cut in the audio]

Shri Mataji: It was too much.
Sahaja Yogi: Tomorrow, midday time.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Sahaja Yogi: He is doing the interview. And he will come where you are, with the material.
Shri Mataji: Two o’clock?
Interviewer: All right.
Sahaja Yogi: Or half past two.
Shri Mataji: Yes. Here, today.
Sahaja Yogi: No tomorrow.
Shri Mataji: What time are we going?
Sahaja Yogini: About six, Shri Mataji, six pm.
Shri Mataji: Very good.
Sahaja Yogini: I will look again.
Sahaja Yogi: Could you, please, give us – The interview will be recorded and it will be-
Interviewer: It will be pre-recorded and broadcasted later.
Shri Mataji: Pre-recorded.
Sahaja Yogini: Two days after.
Shri Mataji: That’s good for radio.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s the radio from Mulhouse. It’s a local radio.
Sahaja Yogi: It was not possible to get an earlier.
Shri Mataji: It’s all right. But you please see, that he asked me questions about all the sects and what they do.
Sahaja Yogi: Excuse me, Mother. You want that that question-
Shri Mataji: That gentleman who comes to interview me.
Sahaja Yogi: He will.
Shri Mataji: He will, all right. Then you ask questions about these sects and what they do, how they make money. And how with that, people get sick. And how it happens people get cancer, this, that.
Sahaja Yogi: This tape will help the future publicity.

Shri Mataji: And you should also ask a question, “Why you’re against all the sects?” That’s a better question, to begin with. And also then, you should also ask him, “What is the difference between a sect and Sahaja Yoga?” It’s a good idea.

Marie: He intended to.
Sahaja Yogi: He thought about it.
Shri Mataji: Just attack and ask them all the tricks, you see? What they do, what they have really, you don’t know how much they have extracted, not only the money, but also the real being itself is being just sucked.
Sahaja Yogi: The questions that he will ask you, are the questions of the public. It will be the questions from the public, because he got a lot of phone calls, at the announcement in the Press. People asking, “But what is Sahaja Yoga? Is that a new sect or what is it about?”
Shri Mataji: But more, sort of, directed towards the subtler side of a sect. Because I can tell them what they are doing, how they are doing. Like, you see, somebody who proclaims that he can make the people fly, you can ask me. Somebody says he’s Christ, he can walk out on the water. Then there is another one, like that you see, I’ll tell you about all of them what they say and how to make it out. Now, without taking names, so there’s no [unclear].
You see, like some people give up their parents like the Monies you see, making them taking away from their parents and they are taking out work from them, using them for his own purpose. Then the Monies, you see. Like Scientology is banned London because it produced results by which people became mad, you see. He’s banned, now. The fellow is not allowed to come there. Also, I think, he is discovered here also.
Marie: Actually he’s got a booming business in France and in Switzerland.
Shri Mataji: Is he?
Marie: Yes. They’ve been denounced that business is still going.
Shri Mataji: From religion, he earned out of religion and now put it in the business. [Laughter].
Sahaja Yogi: Religion, it’s horrible, it’s not religion.
Shri Mataji: So-called. It’s called a church.
Marie: And he uses the cross, it’s called Church of Scientology, with a cross.

Shri Mataji: What business is he doing Marie? What business is he doing?
Marie: Well, I know that in Rosa, and I went to visit with Raimond their center. And he’s gone to visit another center. Also they have a very nice flat quite expensive and very big and they advertise quite a lot for programs and purification sessions and psychological tests of course. And in Paris they have a center and they put little leaflets in letterboxes quite regularly. They’re about the only cult who actually goes around putting papers in letterboxes in France.
Shri Mataji: Now we, not the cult, we do.
Marie: Well, if they do, we certainly should.

Shri Mataji: Horrible. But from London they have been thrown away for what reason? Do you know why they were thrown away from England completely? The Scientology people, what was he reason?
Marie: No. We’ll have to find out, actually. Cause in France, they’re spreading. They have a library and actually, a kindergarten. They’ve started a ‘crèche’. They’ve started a ‘crèche’ in Paris.
Shri Mataji: What I’m saying that we must find out why, what was the reason for Mr Hubbard, what was the legal thing that happened that she was not allowed to stay.

Sahaja Yogini [to Shri Mataji]: Yoghurt with honey.
Shri Mataji: Thank you. I’ll have it with cheese also.
Shri Mataji: Not yoghurt. Because I speak so much that I can afford to eat anything like that now. I ate it in one previous life, I should say.
Sahaja Yogini: So, some cheese [fresh cheese].
Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon? No fat cheese. Because in France, one must eat cheese. [Laughter]
[Hindi conversation]

Shri Mataji: Here, we don’t eat yoghurt and fish. We don’t eat fish and yogurt in India. Because that gives you those rashes on the body. Because fish is hot, the phosphorus, and the yoghurt is a cooling thing. So, the combination makes it like that.
Sahaja Yogi: So, you don’t eat it together.
Shri Mataji: You can cook it together, but you won’t have- first you’ll have- say, supposing you have fish, then you won’t have a yogurt.
Marie: He says it is a question of allergy and it changes from one individual to another.
Shri Mataji: No, mostly people who are allergic, specially, they get too much worse [unsure]. But it can give troubles to some people because those who have allergies, if they eat fish, they’re more prone to it. Fish, you see, they get allergic to fish. And on top of that, if you suddenly take yogurt, then it’s completely imbalanced and they get a very big rash. But normally, it is always also with others.
Actually, the combination, because the left-sided person is a cool [cold] person. So, such a person is always allergic to proteins, because proteins are heat-giving. So, he can be allergic to any protein as such. Also, you see, viruses, all those things also are not actually proteins, but they are some sort of a, you can say, discarded vegetables or which have gone out of the circulation of evolution. So, even when they attack, you see, a cold person, these allergies will act.

In Sahaja Yoga, we have two types of people, one is with a cold livre, one with a hot liver. In Sahaja Yoga, we have two types of people, basically, a hot liver and a cold liver. Like two patients, you can say. Normal people don’t have this kind of things. They have a normal liver. But French are mostly hot liver patients. You are not and Patrick also, even Geneviève is not. But Patrick ‘wife is, this great Australian is, they have a hot liver. Australians also because they eat such a lot of proteins! Meet all the time. And Indians eat too much of carbohydrates, that’s not good also.

Marie: He says why do French people have a hot liver?
Shri Mataji: Cheese.
Sahaja Yogi: Alcohol?
Shri Mataji: Of course. They think too much, very complicated. Very difficult diplomats. Very difficult for small things, you see, that now you see this [unclear]. They will say, “This is not to be used for water”. Then you bring another glass, they’ll say, “No. this cannot be used for this water from a spring”. Then they will say, “We could we bring another glass?” They’ll say, “No”. [Cut in the audio.]
Then you bring another glass. Then they will ask you, ” Which side of the spring you are standing, right or left?” By that you have to have a different glass. Then you bring two glasses. Then they will say, “No, this is from the centre”. Then you bring another glass, [Shri Mataji is laughing] and you go mad with your [unclear], you see? I mean, you have to drink the water not the glass! That’s why French diplomats are terrible! There’s a way to delude them is never to offer anything that is French. Never to have anything in the house that is French. So, they won’t be pestering you on that. But to tell them that, ” This carpet is as old as 5000 years from India, from Timbuktu”, you see. They’ll believe it. But they’ll ask them ten questions about this carpet. But you must make a cut in the carpet, otherwise they will never believe also. [Laughter]

Marie: He says then Mr Talleyrand could not be a Realized soul.
Shri Mataji: Who?
Marie: Talleyrand was a diplomat a minister of Napoleon who represented France in the Congress of Vienna in 1815.
Shri Mataji: He might be because vibrations are there. But that must be some exception to keep the rules. [Laughter]
And their wives, they are very serious women, all the time an expression as if something is something very serious has happened somewhere. Very worried, very worried.

So, you ask them, “What’s the problem?” “I’m worried about my mother because she’s so tolerant of my father. And because my mother was so tolerant of my grandmother and of all her sisters”. But I said, “How can you help her by this kind of a worry?” “Oh, only thing, I can go on telling my husband that I’m worried”. And the husband is worried about the glass! [Laughter] Such nice time here. I mean, they are the ‘cream’ [of the society]. All of them will have dinner if you invite them. Of course, you must invite them to the best restaurant, no question, with all French ‘cuisine’ and French things around which they eat every day. But at the table, worse than a conference, they’ll sit for one hour discussing; “What will you have? What will I have?” And the host will be taking up his neck about two feet with anxiety, “Now, what will you have?” It’s very funny. For one hour! Out of the one hour and half we have for lunch, one hour is [inaudible; Shri Mataji is laughing]. They are not eating, just eating the discussion.
Sahaja Yogi: Out of the menu.
Shri Mataji: Ah, ‘preba’. Then the wine. Then, “What wine?” And it’s such a problem, I tell you. My husband has to host, imagine, who does not drink at all. And his plight is such that he is asked first, he has to taste, you see, because the host has to taste first, if the wine is all right. And he doesn’t know from one wine to even any other alcohol, like anything, it’s to him, it’s just the same. This way, he has learnt, you know, how to do it. So, I told him that, “How does it taste?” He told me, “It tastes like – supposing you have some cork in the water,
Marie: Some ‘what’?
Shri Mataji: Cork. [Shri Mataji is laughing]. And you buy some [inaudible] to suck it. You suck their cotton [unsure]. Then, “What is the taste you get? ” “It’s rotten cotton”, he said. That is the taste you get. But I said, “Why did you taste the cork?” “But I didn’t know the taste of a cork at all of a rotten cork”.

“Though, he said, in my childhood you see, I was trying, one day, to open a bottle which was closed for many days, you see. And I couldn’t open it. So, I used my mouth to open it and I got a horrible smell that time and I vomited for six, seven days. And I have to do it every time to say, ‘It’s ‘très bien’ [very good]”. I tell you, but the way they discuss about food, is just [mad]. It takes so much time. This is ego to take a decision about every little nonsense, whether you will have fish on the toast or toast on the fish. [Shri Mataji is laughing]. So much time on this, intelligent people wasted.

Marie: He says in France, all the business, all the big discussions, all the decisions are taken around the restaurant table.
Shri Mataji: But actually, mainly, it is what they are going to eat. So, I’m sure it must be creating a mess in the business also. Because, you see, when you are doing some serious work, there should be a full attention. And the food must be digested in the stomach also, I mean there should be attention for the food. Otherwise, the blood has to go to the stomach, and it goes to the brain. And also for food, there should be no discussion. You should do it in thoughtless awareness I think, or in a very happy mood. So, there is no liver problem this is what I am telling you about liver. [Shri Mataji is laughing].

Marie: He says the history of France has actually three bases. One is the bed,
Shri Mataji: Bed?
Marie: Yes. Second is the table and third is the attorney’s office.
Shri Mataji: Attorney’s office.
Marie: Money, land property. And if you- that’s the way to understand French history. These are the three
Shri Mataji: Problems.
Marie: Pivots actually, where all the history is revolving around it.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s very true.
Marie: And we are still a very archaic Society in that sense, because it’s still very much like this.
Shri Mataji: Oh, yes, but, you see, of course the solution to this also is not to be a pendulum movement that aims to all these things. You must give up this. You see, to change from one pivotal thing to another pivotal thing, it would be pendulous. Like from this to go to Communism. That is the reaction. That is rebellion, we can call it. But revolution, you see, revolution means, a movement spirally to revolve higher, to rise higher.

Shri Mataji [to a Sahaja Yogini]: Thank you, where did you get it?
Sahaja Yogini: In Basel [Switzerland}, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Ah, Basel, you remember. Thank you. Beautiful flower [inaudible].
What happened to the flowers of Sahaja Yoga in Basel? We had some people in Basel.
Sahaja Yogi: Not in Basel, we didn’t have a program in Basel.
Shri Mataji: We had.
Sahaja Yogi: Two years ago.
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Sahaja Yogi: They just vanished in the thin air.
Shri Mataji: [Shri Mataji is laughing]. In all the air, all the flowers.
Sahaja Yogi: Nobody stayed.
Shri Mataji: But these flowers show that I was there. The fragrance, you see the fragrance of the white flowers, you can make it out that the fragrance that they have means that I was there, just see. That’s the proof. Even [if] people have vanished, the flowers are there.

Sahaja Yogi: Have you seen, Shri Mataji, it’s beautiful the article.
Shri Mataji: Can you imagine? Yes.
Yes, yes, I saw that.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s a beautiful thing, you see Mother.
Shri Mataji: Beautiful, nice photograph.
All right? See, this is the proof that I’ve been to Basel, because the white flowers don’t give you fragrance also.

Shri Mataji: In London, daisies were never fragrant. Nowadays there is so much fragrance in daisies, you can’t imagine.

Sahaja Yogi: Did you have a nice trip Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: Yes, we had. But we missed you a little bit at the point of entry into – I mean in Switzerland – because our boxes were reviewed and we got – what you call?
Sahaja Yogi: Customs.
Shri Mataji: Customs. We had to return the thing, so they wanted to see.
Sahaja Yogi: You were carrying some-
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, but I had room in the cab. Therefore, it would have been too much to carry that on the train.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s true. But that’s what we said, we didn’t know we had to carry it. Because of diplomatic passport, they can’t stop me also. For me, they, little bit, made a mistake, not to show them this diplomatic passport, you see. Otherwise, it would have been all right. But they, normally they never ask you see, to show. But they said, “Better show us”.

So, she explained that, “We did not know”. But they were nice.
Sahaja Yogini: And also yesterday night with Warren, we go through the customs without giving the papers the paper for the [unclear], you see.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Sahaja Yogini: Yes. And we had to because for the shop. So, at 1:30 am at night, you see, I stopped at the customs and I said, “Please, this is the paper we forgot to give you”. And they said, “But where are the goods intended?” So, I said, “Please, on my honour, I could assure you that the goods are intended. And the next time, you will see for some friends who were Australians, they were not [unclear part] And they said, “All right, go on. But next time”. I said “Yes, next year, we will know that”. But they were very nice, because in France, generally they are very, very hard.

Shri Mataji: She told me you will get a percentage lower than that, or something. It’s because of [unclear].
Sahaja Yogini: And because they said also, they were trusting me, but they said there are so much fraud, so much
Shri Mataji: Faultery.
Sahaja Yogini: Yes, that’s the reason they want to see the goods. To be sure that it is going abroad and not staying in France.
Warren: It was an amount of discount of about 200 Francs, on 800. So, 200 out of 800.

Shri Mataji: Just imagine. So, how much in dollars? It’s a French Franc.
Warren: 400. Less, less, so it’s 600.
Shri Mataji: French Franc, how much is it for dollars?
Warren: Half.
Sahaja Yogini: About 750.
Warren: Oh, Franc? Oh, I’m sorry.
Sahaja Yogini: 750 for a dollar.
Shri Mataji: A hundred dollars, about. No, no, no. About six.
Warren: We bought six, net of six. So, it’s about three hundred dollars.

Shri Mataji: Oh, no.
Sahaja Yogini: No, less.
Shri Mataji: You see, less than one hundred. Because it is 7,50.
Sahaja Yogini: 7,50 for one dollar. You see?
Warren: Ah, yes
Shri Mataji: One dollar. French Franc.
Warren: Keep jumping across the border, French and Swiss.
Shri Mataji: He got- he was a diplomat, you see, no wonder.
Warren: French and Swiss.
Shri Mataji: Because diplomacy is, you get confused, you see. Only God can be really diplomatic. Anyway, it doesn’t matter He was a diplomate.
Warren: It just explains the confusion I was in.
Shri Mataji: It’ is about [unclear] Very less, about 750 divided by 600, you see.
Warren: 80. 90.
Shri Mataji: 80.
Warren: 80 or 90 dollars. 80 about.
Shri Mataji: 80. All right.
But you would have paid three hundred dollars.
Warren: I wasn’t even involved in the calculation, Mother. I wasn’t taking the least bit of notice. It’s when Dhumal is with me then I start thinking. But when she’s with me, I let her think
Shri Mataji: Good idea, that’s what I do. You see, best is- if somebody asks me, “What about your money?” I say, “You see, money, I give to the bank”. Somebody keeps the account. I sign the checks. I never see the accounts, that’s how I solve my money problems. Tell them that [to the translator]. And also, writes the checks for you.
Sahaja Yogini: I must say that I am very bad at calculating too.
Shri Mataji: You are bad at calculation?
Sahaja Yogini: Yes, I am very bad about it.
Shri Mataji: To what?
Sahaja Yogini: To transfer.
Warren: Conversion.
Shri Mataji: Bad at it.
Sahaja Yogini: Every time I go to the bank I say, “Please, tell me how much it is and so on”.

Shri Mataji: Yesterday, in that turmoil, you see very clearly that how human beings have divided themselves, so clearly, and accepted [unclear] with it.
Warren: The turmoil and the program.
Shri Mataji: I mean the whole thing.
Warren: The sorting out, everything.
Shri Mataji: And you have to take out a certificate of your permanence [unsure], this is whether you are permanently present, like India.
Warren: Visas and all these things.

Shri Mataji: And your prisoner number is this and this, you see, prisoner number, belonging to this prison. And what you take from one prison must be seen to the other prison.

You see, animals have much more sensitivity and understanding how to live together. If a tiger dies in a forest, the whole forest becomes surprisingly [unsure] silent. Absolutely. For about months, you can feel that a tiger is dead somewhere. And even if a tiger is sitting and if he is having his one meal with whatever he has killed, because he just has his own meal, whatever he kills, he doesn’t take somebody else’s. Even then in the area that this tiger is, about, say, you can say at least, for twenty-five yards area, you start feeling the silence, complete silence, absolutely. Because, not out of fear, but it’s awe: he is the king, you see. And the tiger also lives like a king. He’ll kill once a month one animal perhaps, or once a week. And visits that animal only twice. Only twice he will visit that animal. And the rest he will leave. So many do it only once, you see, and the rest he will leave it to others and he won’t go near that place at all because others people disturbed. See the consideration. And it’s a such a wonderful animal this tiger is, that it does not even attack very, very small animal never. Like a little, say, rabbit or something like foxes. It has to be a bullock or something like that. [Question in Hindi] The male, buffalo?
Sahaja Yogi: Buffalo.
Warren: A dear.
Shri Mataji: And a dear. But not the baby dear, the male. You see, it must have power to fight him. The other thing that he eats must have power to fight him. It’s the sense of dignity.
Arnaud: The lion is a bit like that too.
Shri Mataji: The lion is even greater. He’s so sweet you can’t imagine. And he could be very softly handling, you know. He doesn’t eat everything, he’s such a sweet animal.
Sahaja Yogini: He is asking if there no sort of cruelty between the animals.
Shri Mataji: No cruelty. Because you see, idea of cruelty also comes from ego. They have no ego. Only human beings can be cruel because they know how to be cruel. They just kill and eat. Because we think of non-violence so we know violence.

We are an [unclear] because there is no Spirit which gives us the guide in life. It’s right that only human beings know how to be do cruel, can you imagine!
[Hindi conversation] There are some animals who remember if you insulted them or something. Then they try to be- try to get after you [unclear] like they say so, like they say the serpent. If you put your foot on a serpent and he’s hurt in his bone or something, then he may follow you. But it’s not cruelty but he may just follow you to punish you.

Sahaja Yogi: Shri Mataji, I have a question. Do the animals behave differently in front of a Sahaja Yogi?
Shri Mataji: Very much.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes?
Shri Mataji: Oh!
Sahaja Yogi: Even dangerous animals?
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, of course, of course. They never bite. Snakes won’t bite a realized soul.
Sahaja Yogi: Really? It’s amazing
So, if we are in India, we don’t have to fear the cobras.
Shri Mataji: No, not the cobras. Wasps are horrid.
Sahaja Yogi: Wasp?
Shri Mataji: There are some, also, devilish animals, you see.
Sahaja Yogi: Which one?
Shri Mataji: Like the wasps.
Sahaja Yogi: And rats too, rats? Rats are not devilish animals.
Shri Mataji: Rats are not. The parasites on rats are.

Warren: What about bats, Mother? Bats.
Shri Mataji: Bats are the bhoots.
Sahaja Yogi: Bat, what is bat? They look horrible. Let’s see, Shri Mataji, when you left today, the amount of wasps which was gathering in the ashram.
Warren: There were not wasps, there were bumblebees.
Sahaja Yogi: They are not, they were wasps.
Warren: Oh, upstairs were they? Outside.
Shri Mataji: Where?
Sahaja Yogi: A lots of wasps were in the house when you left the house today.
Sahaja Yogini: Yes, but it was our fault also, because we left the sugar, the jam out, you see? So, at once, they are coming.
Shri Mataji: But also, they attack, wasps. I don’t know the bumblebee doesn’t bite.
Warren: Bumblebee doesn’t trouble you very much, it does have a sting but not such a bad one. I used to manage honeybee stores at home.
Shri Mataji: Honey bees are these wasps, are they?
Warren: No, no, no.
Shri Mataji: Wasps are bigger.
Warren: Yes, wasps are totally different. They’re ugly, horrible.
Sahaja yogi: Did you remember, Shri Mataji, last year in Vienna, when we killed this horrible huge, bigger than the wasp, and dangerous? I don’t know the name in in English. And one bite can kill. It was in Vienna.

Shri Mataji: Was there one? The one that is a German stuff when the Germans came, they stayed in that thing,
Warren: Tyrol.
Shri Mataji: Same thing happened.
Sahaja yogi: Same maybe yes.
Shri Mataji: He said this comes from Turkey, Turkish invasion, isn’t it?
Sahaja Yogini: They must be the ones from there, yes.

Sahaja Yogini: You see the one that the bird living, the a owl ?, living during the night. What do you think Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: It’s also inauspicious awls, you see.
Sahaja yogini: Ah!
Warren: So much ?. It’s called the wise animal in our literature.
Shri Mataji: It’s very inauspicious. It is cunning. It’s very inauspicious. If here wisdom means some sort of a person who knows how to take advantage of others, so that’s how it is.
[Hindi words].
Sahaja Yogi: And the cat? I don’t like cats.
Shri Mataji: Cats are fallen tigers, I think.
Sahaja Yogi: Degenerated.
Shri Mataji: Leopards, also, same style.
Sahaja Yogi: They are very cunning, leopards, very dangerous.
Shri Mataji: There’s one called hyena. I don’t know.
Warren: Hyena.
Shri Mataji: It’s horrible. There are some cunning and some are the donkeys also.

Sahaja Yogi: But not as donkeys as human beings.
Shri Mataji: You have everything among human beings. You’ve got donkeys, tigers,
Warren: Horses.
Shri Mataji: What is it?
Warren: Horses.
Shri Mataji: Horses. Horses? Very common in London.
[Laughter]
Warren: The English are horses.
Sahaja Yogi: Therefore, they are some kinds of horses.
Shri Mataji: And they must have come from horses.
Shri Mataji: I think so. They walk like horses, you see. When they walk, they are scared, they move like that. They walk like horses.
[Hindi conversation]

Actually, Mike comes from a place where they have sugar factories all around. So, I must say for a Rahuri person, he gets very little sugar. You must give him for three [unclear] that much. Rahuri people take at least five. At least! [Laughter]
Warren: We know when we drink their tea, Mother.
Shri Mataji: No, no, that’s for you, they make it half.
Shri Mataji: They make it half for you.
Warren: Half? And yet, it is so sweet. [Laughter]

Shri Mataji: They make it half for you.
Arnaud: Shri Mataji, it’s so enjoyable to see you here. We were here the first time in January for the first program, public program in Mulhouse. And we were all wishing that you would come once. See.
Shri Mataji: Very attractive place. I couldn’t get out of its aura, I think. It’s beautiful.
Sahaja Yogi: Shri Mataji, I have a question: if you if we come, with my wife, to London, for the Guru Nanak, for the Guru Nanak puja or Diwali puja, can we stay in Surbiton?
Shri Mataji: Of course. When you come for some puja, you can always stay in Surbiton. The only thing is that I have to suggest that the boys should stay in Surbiton and the girls in the ashram of Chelsham road. Because also it is in the city. You see, for girls to go out all the way to suburbs during the night, after programs, is also too much. [Inaudible] When will you be coming?
Arnaud: Shri Mataji, the first week of November. Is that correct?
Shri Mataji: No, that is Diwali.
Arnaud: It is Diwali and Guru Nanak in the same week.
[Hindi conversation.]
Shri Mataji: It’s also quite hard.

[Conversation between Sahaja Yogis.]

Shri Mataji: November is it? [Hindi conversation.]

Today is the first, is it, of September?
Arnaud: It is the first of September.
Shri Mataji: First of September.

Arnaud: I’m sure you travel in the United States will be a success, Shri Mataji. I’m sure.

Shri Mataji: Basel, we had some people or not?
Arnaud: We had but they didn’t stabilize themselves.
Shri Mataji: But you can write to them.
Arnaud: Yes, we can catch them and we can catch the Freiburg and Germany from Mulhouse. That’s why we felt that this Center-
Shri Mataji: Is it close from here Freiburg?
Arnaud: It is a one-hour drive.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Arnaud: Yes.
Shri Mataji: It’s Thomas’s center.
Arnaud: Yes, he will come Thomas this evening Martine, Thomas.
Martine: Thomas? Yes, he comes.
Shri Mataji: How is he in Freiburg? What does he say? Not much.
Martine: No. He is alone.
Arnaud: Shri Mataji, I think he’s a weak person because of his wife.
[Shri Mataji speaks in Hindi]
Arnaud: He could survive, I think, because of the people here in Mulhouse, because they came a lot and they helped him in Freiburg. Christine and Martin went to Strasbourg, went to Freiburg in Germany. And so they kept good relationships among each other because it’s very close to the border. And the mentality here, it is a French mentality but still some links with the German background is still there.
Shri Mataji: There are also differences, but –
[Arnaud speaks in French]
Shri Mataji: I tell you, border people are always fine.
Arnaud: It is a ‘Rhinal’ tradition. It is a tradition of the River Rhin, goes up to Holland and it includes the southern part of Germany the eastern part of France and the northern part of Switzerland. And it is all center as I told you there is a place in ‘Bâle’ [French name of Basel] where the all three countries meet, three borders.
Shri Mataji: And what is that part?
Arnaud: This is a part in very close to ‘Bâle’ and very close to here.
Shri Mataji: Bâle?
Arnaud: Basel. To Basel. There is one spot –
Shri Mataji: Basel. I told him this. I, today only, I told him this.
Arnaud: He said that it is more German tradition. So, we can go to Germany from here, from Mulhouse maybe. And for Vienna, so.

Shri Mataji: Warren, what about the telephone?
Warren: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Warren?
Warren: Together. We can do it right now Mother. I’ve got the number.
Shri Mataji: What’s the time now in London?
Warren: It’s four o’clock, Mother.
Shri Mataji: Now we have to take your permission, Christine, to use the phone. Christine? Because there was an important call we had to book. And we did not talk to the [unclear] from there.
Warren: Christine, can we make a call to London?
Christine: Yes. We have to move?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.

Arnaud: [About the baby] He is crying, Mother.
Shri Mataji: You must sit in there.
Arnaud: But normally, he is very calm.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Arnaud: He’s very calm normally.
Shri Mataji: But he has improved so much. Both her children have improved very much. Markandeya and this little. Tremendous improvement. And when I was coming, he was looking very miserable, Markandeya, no? Everybody said, “Baba, he was standing like this, looking at me, as if I am gone away”.
Arnaud: And he changed a lot too, Shri Mataji. He feels strength, stronger. I mean the transformation that was so great.
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible]
Arnaud: Yes, they are just.
Warren: No, no, no. she’s ringing [unclear].
Shri Mataji: And this [Inaudible]
Warren: Yes.
[Cut in the audio]

Shri Mataji: So, thank you very much. We told them a nice story about the French.
Arnaud: Ah.
Shri Mataji: [Laughter].
Arnaud: Unfortunately I was not there.

Shri Mataji: Yes, I think it’s all safe. Thank you
[To the baby] Hello, who was crying?

Warren: Can we make another phone call, is it possible? Could she give us the dialling code for London?
I’m just getting this phone call for Mother.
[End of audio]