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Conversation. Vienna (Austria), 7 September 1983.
Sahaja Yogi: [asking about taking drugs & punishment – mostly inaudible]
Shri Mataji: So I think, when they come outside, they do it. He was outside in London, in Brighton he met Me, this boy. And then he was better, but again he took to it, I don’t know why. You see, for that you must keep the company of Sahaja Yogis to get rid of your bad habits to – see, if you keep their company then in collectivity it washes off and you’ll feel better. But if do not keep the company of the collective then what happens – your individual habits just crawl up again and take charge.
I give the analogy of a butter and butter milk, you see, but when you are churning, what happens? Part of the butter sometimes sticks here and there, little little stops, though it is a butter, but still it sticks here. Doesn’t go with the whole, so it is left in the buttermilk and it’s thrown away. So, like that, you see one should not stray out of the collectivity, it’s a very big force in collectivity, also where there is collectivity I remain. One should not go out from collectivity. Whatever work you are doing, take three, four Sahaja yogis also with you to be together, because negativity is very cunning and it will attack a person who is a little bits. And also other things like, you see, the social customs, and social methods like – we had a very good Sahaja yogi in London first, and he belonged to a more, sort of a, we should say an official class of [anything ?], and then he went back, you see, to his life but he would not mix up with the Sahaja Yogis, so he was sucked in again into that horrible society.
Like we had this Philippa, it’s a horrible woman, you see, she came with us, she came to India, I mean, that time we were not charging any money, stayed with us, did everything for her, and then she went back and she had a contract with some man who was to write a book, she was to write a book about all the Gurus and all that. So about Me she didn’t write that I was a bad Guru or I was taking money or anything, not that kind. But she wrote that, “Mother says that you can’t have funny relations for sex”, and this and that, all those things, you see, so rather against Me. She says, “I sleep even with bus conductors, nothing happens to me, even now I am feeling the vibrations.” But where is she now? She is a lost person I see, she was lying somewhere, it was very [deceiving]. Six months she is no, she was seen, she is finished!*
So, collectivity gives you strength, you see, to stand together, and to correct yourself, to get yourself all right, to be cleansed out, so the spiritual ascent is faster. Otherwise, if you get mixed up with the other people, you see, they influence you so much that you get sucked back into them, and then again it is difficult to bring you back from there. And unless and until your Ego or Superego is dissolved into collectivity, you can never enjoy the bliss of your Spirit. This is one of the things people do not understand because they think we have to be individuals, we have to have our individual privacy, your this and that. But actually, there is complete individual privacy you have, because you are Master of yourself. But externally you are not so much attached to things which were so important before.
Best thing is to go to India, you will find that it’s absolutely Spartan living and – because I can’t make it very much better, because even if you pay money you can’t get everything in a village, we go to the villages so it’s a Spartan living, but you enjoy everything because you are in collective, you don’t mind, everybody is in a very joyous mood, you can ask him. (Shri Mataji laughing) I was rather worried about [Guinevere ?], I mean she is quite [aged ?], she had had her worries, things were swollen and all her legs were swollen, specially her ankle joints were so swollen, so big, and she just arrived there. And I was wondering, now what’s going to happen to Guinevere? And, but she was so joyous about the whole thing, she started walking about, her legs opened out, her feet swollen gone, she was just walking like normal person, no botheration at all of any kind to her. So, then we learned the beauty of collectivity, the social aspect of human beings where a man, how, when he is realized, enjoys the social atmosphere. And that is to be – really to be experienced, I cannot explain what it is.
Gradually you’ll find Sahaja yogis become very adaptable to their circumstances, very simple to adapt. Like, I must say I have a very over-comfortable house in London, it is too much. (Shri Mataji laughing) And when Dhumal saw My bathroom he got really so frightened, he said “Your bathroom is so big. How do You go into my dirty bathroom, I can’t understand?” (Shri Mataji laughing) But I forget, I don’t remember what bathroom I had, this supposed to be in London, what bathroom is, just to Me it’s just a bathroom, have your bath and come out. (Shri Mataji laughing) So, gradually this idea of comfort doesn’t trouble you. This idea of comfort drops out, I mean you are comfortable within yourself and you are comfortable outside. So many mythical things drop out.
In this new awareness you must know that the enjoyment is really shared when you have Sahaja Yogis around you; otherwise you cannot enjoy. Even small children, see when the Sahaja Yogis come they just start jumping. Like this one, when the Sahaja yogis come he is very happy. Or that little girl, how she was dancing when she saw you were here. When My granddaughter, you see, she was five years, her birthday fell in London. So we had a small little – we said, “We’ll have a small little party”. So she said, “But what about my friends?” So we said, “Who are your friends?” She said, “All the Sahaja Yogis in London, they are all my friends! Won’t you call them for the party?” (Laughter) And then she said, “Would you call them earlier? Because first I’ll clean them, and then we’ll have the party!” (Shri Mataji laughing) And I think there were about fourteen of them there, and she went and brought a small bucket and, you see, filled it in the bathroom and brought it, and asked everybody to put their feet in that. She washed their feet and then put the bucket back again, the water in the WC, she pulled it. She did it for all the fourteen.
Sahaja Yogi: Really?
Shri Mataji: Yes, ask [Govind ?]. And after doing that, you see, then she went and washed her feet and hands in the tub. She came, she fell on My feet and said, “I am going numb, I am not going to see anyone.” (Shri Mataji laughing & laughter) And then she went and dressed herself up and came down for her birthday and then she called everyone, “Now let’s have the birthday!” (Shri Mataji laughing)
So, that is what you will also feel, very much. Another example I’ll give you: There is one great Sahaja Yogini who will tell about you and [came at the meeting ?].
Sahaja Yogi: “Yes, Mother, Marie-Laure muss das GebĂÂ¤ck machen, Catherine muss die Kinder versorgen, wir brauchen drei MĂÂ¤dchen, um den Tee und Kuchen und alles das zu servieren. Sonst geht das nicht. Shri Mataji hat die Geschichte von Ruth erwĂÂ¤hnt. Ruth hat ihre Selbstverwirklichung in Rom gekriegt. Ein paar Tage spĂÂ¤ter ist sie nach Sizilien in die Ferien gefahren. – [about a yogini:] Mother, she has to go now and – ”
Shri Mataji: Really? I think it’s all right. May God bless you! What’s your name?
Sahaja Yogini: Edith.
Shri Mataji: Also, we have two Ediths. (Laughter) Thank you very much! May God bless you! Hope to see you and in a much higher state! (Laughter)
Sahaja Yogi: She says I hope so also and I hope that I will see you in India. I wish this very much.
Shri Mataji: “Good! Good idea, very good idea! But be prepared for a Spartan life!” (Shri Mataji laughing & laughter)
Sahaja Yogi: Ruth ist nach Sizilien gereist und war ein bisschen neugierig und auch ein bisschen ĂÂ¤ngstlich, weil sie hat gedacht, jetzt habe ich drei Wochen Ferien dort und vor drei Tagen habe ich meine Selbstverwirklichung gekriegt und was werde ich damit machen? Und es war eine Party in Sizilien, und dort war ein franzĂÂ¶sisches MĂÂ¤dchen, und dann haben sie von Sachen gesprochen, und nach einiger Zeit hat das franzĂÂ¶sische MĂÂ¤dchen gesagt: “Was machen Sie eigentlich?” Und das ist die erste sonderbare Sache, weil die Ruth ist eine Diplomatin, und sie sagt nie, weil diese Freunde in Sizilien sind irgendwie Marxisten und Kommunen und so sagt sie nie, dass sie in einer Botschaft arbeitet. Aber diesmal, sie weiĂĹ¸ nicht warum, sie hat gesagt: “Ich arbeite an der franzĂÂ¶sischen Botschaft in Rom.” Da guckt das franzĂÂ¶sische MĂÂ¤dchen und sagt: “Aber dann kennen Sie Gregoire? Aber dann sind Sie eine Sahaja Yogini?!” – (Shri Mataji laughing & laughter)
Shri Mataji (laughing): And tears started rolling! And tears started coming, they just disappeared. [Note from the transcriber: There was NO translation into English, but Shri Mataji got the story exactly!]
Sahaja Yogi: Und dann, die Kundalini went up, und sie waren so froh, und sie haben gesagt: “Und jetzt mĂÂĽssen wir etwas machen!” Und sie haben Selbstverwirklichung 10 Sizilianern gegeben. –
Shri Mataji (again laughing): Such a joy! –
Sahaja Yogi: Das war die Party in Sizilien.
Shri Mataji: It happens like that, you know, so many, like these – somebody was coming by plane, and they were delayed, you see, because everybody came by big groups and somebody came… So I sent one of the Sahaja yogis. I said, “You go and get them!” He never asked Me, “How will I find out?” You see, he was just looking like vibrations and suddenly the fellow came from that … He just asked him, he said, “Are you a Sahaja yogi?” – He said, “I am. How do you know?” He said, “I got your vibrations!” And they just met. (Shri Mataji laughing) It’s something great, isn’t it? We have brothers and sisters all over.
(A child joyfully comes close to the microphone): “Dadadada – dadada.”
Shri Mataji (speaks first to the child and then aside): Right, you sit down now, sit down! Ahh! We were showing magic in the morning.
So, that is the joy of being with other Sahaja yogis because you are all saints now, you are saints and seers. (Shri Mataji laughing) Yeah! When I was a little girl, about 7 years, I used to write poetry, as you do. And I wrote a series of poems called ‘On the bank of Nira river’. My name is Nirmala, but in the family I am called as Nira, in My family. – ‘On the bank of Nira-River’. So, actually I did not know, so there was a river with that name in – I mean, I knew in a way, but that’s not known in India that there’s a river called Nira. Then it happened that there was [Dhumal ?], and he told Me that there’s a gentleman, his brother in law, who has got lot of land and he would like to sell it. So, I said, “That’s a good idea. Where is it?” He said, “On the bank of Nira river.” (Laughter) So he said he wants to sell it to Me alone. I mean he wanted to give Me actually free before, but then we said, “We’ll buy it.” He just wanted to give Me in person that land. So I said, “Why? What is it?” He said that since he came to Sahaja Yoga he has been so much blessed, and this land was taken by government, you see, in the sealing. But they returned it saying that, “This is a [saporous ?] land we have taken, we want to return it.” So he wants to give that land to You.
So, I went to see the land and I found the vibrations were tremendous, and now we have got the land. And it is the river flows like this, you see, in the same way as we have the bandhan, and inside that is the land, about 25 to 30 acres of land. And later on, you see, we found out that the family, every family in India has got a Gotra, means the University of the enlightened teachers, who were there for families, you see, for 14.000 years now we had this one, [Shandilya ?] as our Gotra, [Shandilya ?]. He was a Muni, he was a Rishi, see it. And then we discovered that that was the land of his Ashram. And that he looked after [Prahlad?] in his childhood, by whose effort the – you don’t know all these stories? I must tell you the whole thing in a big way – oh, I didn’t know. You see, this Prahlad. Prahlad’s mother was pregnant, 14.000 years back, it’s the story is. And the lady’s husband was a Rakshasa, [Hiranyakeshapu ?] – when this Narasimha Avatara took place.
Sahaja Yogi: Vielleicht erzĂÂ¤hle ich weiter. Shri Mataji sagt, auf diesem Land, das jetzt unser Land geworden ist fĂÂĽr unser Hauptquartier hat dieser Heilige Prahlad erzogen. Prahlad ist ein Bursche, vor 14.000 Jahren, der durch seine Dedication die Inkarnation von Shri Vishnu als Narasimha provoziert hat.
Shri Mataji: Yeah. And he lived very near Lahore, you see at that time, the father, Hiranyakeshapu. And this boy was not born, but Indra, you see, Indra, the – what you call – the “King of the Gods”, you see, brought this lady to Shandilya Muni on his way, he just brought her there. He was thinking that because her husband was a demon, so it is better that he marries her. So, this boy was born in that Ashram of Shandilya. And the Shandilya Muni told this Indra not to worry about this lady because this boy will be responsible for the advent of Narasimha Avatar [ed.: = Shri Vishnu].
Now, this boy grew there till five years of age. Then he was sent back to the father and you know the story of Prahlad. This river, Nira, flows like this, you see, and another river called Hima meets it there, and in the triangle is a big temple built about 300 years back, of Narasimha; by one of the [Peshwas ?], one of the kings of Maharashtra. And then, I mean, after that some people also helped him, because it took some years to build it. And you see, when the thing was built and when the statue was installed of Shri Vishnu, you see, Prahlada appeared in the dream of the person who had taken up the responsibility of doing that. And he said, “I have already made the statue of Narasimha in sand and you should go and pick it up and build it up [here], I have already made it for you.” At the age of five years, he had already made the future statue of Narasimha.
So, they brought the statue, I mean, imagine, made out of – they saw the statue on the bank made out of sand, and they brought it, and nothing broke. And they brought it and kept it in the temple, you can see it, it is there still – just the same. Did you see it? You saw that temple?
Sahaja Yogi: “Wo wir gebadet haben.”
An other Sahaja Yogi: “Ah, yes, yes, I remember.”
Sahaja Yogi (to Shri Mataji): “I said, where we took a bath.”
Shri Mataji: The river you all jumped, I was close (Shri Mataji laughing) – very clean river, isn’t it? That’s the Nira river.
Sahaja Yogi: Near the temple, there was a place, it was very deep, the whole river is not very deep, but near the temple it was deep.
Shri Mataji: The temple was a deep river. You jumped into it. Yes, that’s the place! And on top of the, one of the pinnacles you get a little flow of water, all the time, don’t know from where it comes. And it is such a nice place now we have got land for all of you, and we’ll be making nice huts for you, and we will all meet there, I am sure, very soon in that area. This is the year of getting lands everywhere.
Sahaja Yogi: Last year, Mother, or this year?
Shri Mataji: This year, altogether, I mean, this will be completion. Last year was promises, this year the execution.
Sahaja Yogi: Then we’ll have to build something.
Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s the next year. So, now tell them how many lands we are getting. Now also this barren land is probably in the hand now, absolutely, today’s letter has come.
Sahaja Yogi: I am also lost, Mother, without these propositions, so let perhaps ….
Shri Mataji: No, I think you better tell [HINDI ?] We have got land in alotted in Delhi, first of all, which he doesn’t know. Then [this foreign?] land, today we have received a letter, saying that the Deputy Chief Minister has said that, “I will give you [writing ?] now that this land is yours.” So we are getting a beautiful land on top of a mountain from where you can see three lakes, and it is very near an airport, International Airport Bombay.
Then there is another one, which is about 15 or 20 miles, for the children, a 7 acres of land, where we’ll have the school for these children. That’s called a [chow ?] where there’s a little river flowing and lots of mountains. And the mountains look as if Dattatreya is sleeping. And the land is so, I mean, it’s in a different levels and, from this side, if you see, it is a beautiful hill there, will be a split level, you see, one of the steps – steps, you can say the steps.
Sahaja Yogi: Buildings as terraced up the side of the hillside.
Shri Mataji: And we’ll be having one side for the girls, one side for the boys. This is an International School with English media.
Now, there’s another land, we have got called [Sitko?] that, of course, we got it in the hand. That is very near the Sea, about one acre. That will be used – so far we have not thought of any use, so you tell us what should we do. (Shri Mataji laughing) So much land!
Sahaja Yogi: When we got the land, are we going to have a research station?
Shri Mataji: That’s different, now this is only near Bombay.
All right. Then now, after that, My forefathers’ land, which is now reallocated in two ways: one is a land in My mother’s place, and one in My father’s place. In My mother’s place we have a big prospect of starting a – have you got it in writing? A prospect, there is a proposal. And one in My father’s place, I’m thinking of starting a Academy for Art, Music, everything, Indian art, music. For the villagers also, if the foreigners want to go, they can also go and learn at a very cheap. With library on Sahaja Yoga, on the theory of Sahaja Yoga. Libraries on theory of Sahaja Yoga.
Sahaja Yogi: Really Mother? The theory of Sahaja Yoga?
Shri Mataji: Now, I mean, “Advent” is the first theory. (Everybody’s laughing.)
Sahaja Yogi: I thought it was going to fall in oblivion, Mother.
Shri Mataji: You see, all My lectures are theories. Then they are hypothesis. Then they become the law. So, that’s the beginning of theories. And many books will be coming now, I’m sure!
Sahaja Yogi: Will it become the archives of Sahaja Yoga?
Shri Mataji: That will be the archives of Sahaja Yoga.
All right. Now, the another big project is about the …
Sahaja Yogi: 35 acres…
Shri Mataji: [HINDI ?]
All right, we have two: one 35 acres, and one is willing to give us 176 acres. I said, “Just give us 11 acres.” (Shri Mataji laughing) So now. And there’s one more, near a big lake, for the school of the children, for the villages. Through the basic education and through the Sahaja Yoga system, Sahaja Yoga basically.
You see, in this when we talk of the archives, I would like some people to go and sit down and compile all the Sahaja Yoga methods we know of, how to use them, how to use for children, to write about books. It’s a very secluded and nice place where people can go and sit along the river and write it very well. All right! And the children school I’ve told you, now we have got this teaching them in things My father’s [restitute ?], can you write it down? [HINDI ?] They must be away from certain countries for some time, because the atmosphere is very bad for them, and what’s the use of spoiling them?
Sahaja Yogi: For a hystery woman?
Shri Mataji: For a hystery woman?
[Pratika ?] (Shri Mataji laughing)
Sahaja Yogi: “FĂÂĽr diejenigen, die irgendwie hysterische Frauen in ihrer Umwelt haben: Shri Mataji hat ein Mantra geschaffen, ich glaube, das ist sehr praktisch, und das heiĂĹ¸t Pratika. (Shri Mataji laughing)
Shri Mataji: There was a Rakshasi, which we call the female demon who was called as ‘Pratika’. And her style was like this: is to, sort of make, some sort of a fuss, a drama, make everything tense, make the husband absolutely nervous all the time, and go on a big pitch, you see, and then start to becoming tantranish or hysterical. So, that woman she was ultimately killed by the Goddess.
So, we are going to speak there to people. This is meant for more for the foreigners to come down, the art, Indian art, Indian music, and dance, Indian dance, and then fabric, weaving and – what you call designing, and pottery works, ceramic work, then stone, stone carving, stone tiles, all hand-made things, you see. So if you people come for three-months course or something, you can learn there for a very cheap prize all these things, if you want to take it.
Sahaja Yogi: “Cooking?”
Shri Mataji: Yes, cooking; (Laughter) and – what else is – embroidery, with someone.
Yeah then. All this handicrafts, you see, like – anything that you want, you can arrange it, no problem. Now see, for one point this is made out of shunka, it is made. What is shunka – is conch. And 1001 things can be made like this, out of conch, out of shells. This kind of silver work, this kind, gold ornaments – at a very cheap price. What is it? Any kind of hand-made things we can teach you, but you have to teach them, they can teach you hut-making also, how to make a hut. And Indian architecture. Indian history, Indian architecture, history, Indian art, all those things, whatever you want to know. And you can also teach us about your architecture, your music, your art, just the other way. Technique, technology of the computer, this that – we don’t know. You people can teach this to the villagers there, while we can teach you the things that we know, all right? So practically, you may have to pay nothing, except for your food and your stay. So, that’s the idea.
Now, at the other [Nandrau…?], another place where is My mother’s place is, where Jankini [want?] there six acres of land. I just said, “Six, no I said three”. You said, “What is three, Mother?” I said, “All right, let’s have it five; then seven”. They said, “At least ask for eleven.” I said, “All right, eleven, whatever you say.” He is about to give Me and carry Me and stamp it in. And I am such an ascetic that I didn’t even take the eleven, I just went, walked off (Shri Mataji laughing) and sat in the car and they all saying, “Look at Mother!”
Aside: [HINDI] (Shri Mataji laughing) All right.
[HINDI ?] (Shri Mataji laughing)
They said, “He is a Sanyasi”, because going in bullock-cart and all that, ape-cart and being with Me all the time here and with Me, just to sign and take it. I just got into the car and told him, “Drive off.” And they all started looking at Me – going off without taking the land. But of course, it is there.
So, then we have a idea of using the solar energy, that is, the Australians are going to teach us in India, to help them. And there are small-scale industries we are starting, for making fuel, simple fuel out of the wastage – badhas, and all that. And our country is very poor in drinks, you see, though it’s such a hot country, and we don’t get proper drinks, like orange and everything, though we have fruits, we can grow fruits, you see. So we want to develop fruits and their juices, so that we can give very cheaply to the villagers, the fruit juices and other to quench their thirst. And the molasses are so much wasted there, we can make biscuits out of them, chew for children’s sweets, so much can be done, but our children don’t get good sweets and they don’t get good biscuits, so that’s what we have to teach them how to make cakes, biscuits, you don’t make cakes so well. That’s what you people will have to teach.
And there is lot of possibility of making hand-made paper. But what you can guide us there is to what sort of paper you would like or this kind of a thing, because so much is wasted there. They can’t do it.
And then extraction of oils for different things, antiseptic oils, other oils, we can have so many of them. And also to teach them the well technology, to the villagers, you see, how to dig a well, how to keep it clean, how to maintain it. So many things you can do, like paints, we can do [moves ?], you don’t get good [moves ?] in India, then we can have a bone industry, all sort of things, you know, so much there is wasted, because we don’t know how to use it. We have raw materials, but if we make a small scale industry, then you can help them very much.
Like your cleaning agents and all these things, we don’t have, so we don’t have that kind of an idea. And also tinning, tinning of food, and all that, you see. In India, now today, for example, I had this, what do you call, that corn. Now in a village, you can get in one pound about 100 corns. But we give it to the animals – can you imagine? (Shri Mataji laughing) Corn, hardly human beings eat in India, is one of these for a joke, but in the villages, no-one. So that can be utilized, you see, to teach them how to eat it. Then the other day we ate cotton seed, I mean, it’s impossible, (Shri Mataji laughing) you can’t even think of cotton seed being eaten in the bread, you know, Gregoire, have you eaten that? Cotton seed in the bread?
Sahaja Yogi: I don’t know, Mother.
Shri Mataji: Never, no, could not have in India. But here I ate in Switzerland, in the most sophisticated place – cotton seed in bread. Actually, cotton seed is just given to animals, absolutely, no question. This should be utilized, we are such wasters, I tell you. So, now what we have here, all these things we are going to do in that area [Nankau ], and one more land.
I’m reading this out to you because you should also think about it and let us know what sort of thing you would like to learn. For example, wood work – you see, wood work. You can have short courses for three months, six months, whatever you want. But whatever you do, just let us know because we have got all kinds of teachers in India, and we can get those teachers. And as long as we give them the pay they are all right and they’ll teach us. So, whatever you want to know, you must let Me know. And then it will be a nice idea to have accordingly the thing arranged, you see. This could be done within two years time, we can start it, no problem.
Sahaja Yogi: I would like to ask you a question which may clarify some thoughts which are in some minds here. I feel the vibrations when I think of asking you the question that’s why I am doing. What such activities, what relationship do they have with our spiritual work?
Shri Mataji: That’s what I am coming to, that’s we are coming to now, you see, that’s what we are coming to. Now, what is the thing in this one, is: All these things are, that first of all, among Sahaja Yoga is not something that hangs in the air, you see. Now you have seen, everywhere we go, people ask us question: “What are you doing about the poverty of any country?” So, how we are through our energies and through our love, how we propagate things which are made of hand. Because the one thing is very important that we have given up the power of making things with our hand, which is very important. Our hands have lost the capacity to make things with hands.
So, Sahaja Yoga believes that people should take to genuine things made with hands as far as possible. Because the genuine things have vibrations. And we, Sahaja Yoga is, of course against plastic and nylons, in a way. Because we stand for reality, so we should use real things. And the secondly, the advantage of this will be that once you make these things – you are Saints, and whatever you may – say, you make biscuits, those biscuits will be eaten by general public, they will feel better.
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi
*Philippa Pullar, The Shortest Journey (London: H.Hamilton, 1981)