Seminar Day 1

Kennolyn Camps, Santa Cruz (United States)


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Seminar in Santa Cruz, California (USA). 1 October 1983.

I am really enamoured to see so many of my children. I have been able to find them back. It’s such a great thing to see them after such a long time. While I came here 10 years back and none of them could feel the importance of Mother’s love, and now such a tremendous thing has happened that it has worked, and that people are feeling that great thing called the subtle energy of Mother’s love.

Now in these ten years I have been all over the world – Australia, Europe, England, India – but I must tell you my attention was in America all the time. I was longing for the day when I would feel like coming back to this country because I thought, ten years back, it was too early. They have to learn it, what truth is. They have to go through it. They had been too cocksure. Unless and until it works out that way, they are not going to accept Sahaja Yoga.

What you accept in Sahaja Yoga is yourself, is your Spirit, is your power of Kundalini and by which the responsibility that, when you get this Realization, you have to settle down with it and know all about it. You have to become a guru, a pure sattwa and then the guru of others. In short, Sahaja Yoga is the epitome of our evolution. That is what we are made human beings for. All these scientific methods that have come upon this earth, all these explorations that are there are to communicate about Sahaja Yoga, nothing else. If you use them for anything else they will have no impact, no achievement and everything will be wasted. Doctor, did you talk to them about the peptones and all that?

Dr. Warren: Not yet.

Shri Mataji: All right, I’ll ask him to talk to you, that the human mechanism is the highest of all. We have now created the highest thing, as we call it as the computer. It goes alongside with our own building inside. The computer has to think, it just can’t do anything without thinking. When you see me you are not thinking, you just see me, you see this, you see that. You don’t have to go into the process of thinking. Spontaneously you know what it is and they will take thousands of years, they will never be able to produce a computer like that. Then the computer when it starts working, the human computer is going even ahead of it. When you become the computer, when you get connected with the mains, you know everything. Because the mechanism within you is the absolute mechanism, the perfect mechanism. It has no defect except that you have misused it, you have over pressed it or you have taken it to a junk shop for nothing at all. But you will be amazed that you can repair it yourself. The mighty power within you has repaired it. So this power which is within us can repair it – repair. That’s one thing it does is to repair. We should accept that there is some repair needed in ourselves. That is one thing one has to accept. Otherwise you cannot go very far with it.

Supposing you buy a fifth-hand ship, then you better repair it before putting it to the sea. Like some ladies came to see me off and on from France, so my husband said, “What’s this? She must have given you realization. Then why are you bothered?” 

He is dealing with shipping. So the lady answered, “Sir, supposing you buy a fifth-hand ship, what will you do?”

He said, “In all wisdom I will never buy it. And even if I buy, after using it for a while, if it does not work out, we’ll throw it in the sea. We have no patience.” So one has to know that you have to work it out, you have to understand your values and your problems, and you have to work it out. It is very easy to work out yourself.

Like there was one Sahaja Yogi who had written this book, Advent. One day he came, very disturbed. He said, “Mother, I’ll ask you a question. If it is yes, you just keep quiet because I will be really blasted. If it is no, it’s all right.”

I said, “What is your question?”

He said, “Was I Napoleon in last life?”

I said, “What makes you think that?”

He said, “Because I have a very big ego. I have discovered such a big ego. I float suddenly, the slightest jump I go floating. That’s why. And the second thing is that I can draw very well from my childhood. I have a very strong hand for lines. That, too, he had. That’s why I am rather worried if I was Napoleon.”

I said, “None at all, don’t you worry.”

Then he was settled down because he said, “That would be really an abuse of you to give realization to Napoleon, a person like Napoleon.” Now look at that. Once upon a time Napoleon was the hero. I mean, as we were young children in India, we had to learn about the greatness of Napoleon, how his childhood was spent and how he conquered countries after countries and his words were used just like some scriptural saying. But now, today, the same country does not want to accept him as a hero. On the contrary they think he was an idiot to do such things. So the situation has changed now, people have learnt their lessons and they think this is not the way the hero should be.

So now, today, the hero is someone like Mahatma Gandhi or you had Mr King here, all such people, or I would say Abraham Lincoln – he is coming up as a hero.  What is so special about these people, we have to see. They were all realized souls, no doubt, but one thing more they had was that they imbibed in them the capacity to emit compassion, love, nourishment and soothing capacity of the Mother Earth.

Because of that only they are today respected as great heroes. And that is what Sahaja Yogis have to be now. They have done all competition, all nonsense. So many have turned back from that. Like they started anti-culture saying, “Oh, it is too much. It is soot and bhoot. It is too much for us. We don’t want to have it.”

So they turned their back to that and they started seeking. But by seeking also, they went to the other side of it and got lost. Like one fellow came to me, all stinking, his hair was stinking, he never had bath for a year, he said. I said, “What is the matter? You’re smelling like a dog.”

So he said, “I want to be a dog.”

I said, “But why?”

Then he said, “I like it.”

But I said, “Why are you troubling everybody else?”

So he says, “Mother, but I want to be primitive.”

I said, “With this brain you can never be primitive. You may change your hat, you may change your hair style, anything. You cannot become primitive. You are a modern man. Accept it. So why trouble others for nothing at all?”

And this is how we think that by our mental projections, by our mental conceptions, we can do something. You cannot do anything. Whatever you do becomes absolutely useless. Why? Because, as Doctor will explain to you later on, that within us now there is something called peptones which work out for the neutralizing of our problems with the sugar. They have a built-in capacity to be in a spiral shape, and once they become linear, they lose their biological effect.  Now, according to him that we put in all amino-acids, everything together, they can only create 5% of all that is created by Nature within us. You can imagine how far they have reached with all that advancement, everything: only 5%. These peptones, as they are spiral, everything within us is like that in the sense that our evolution has to take place spirally, it has to work spirally, not in a linear way like a pendulum. Like men are becoming women, women becoming men. They are homosexual, this sexual, that sexual – it’s all mental projection, it’s joyless, it doesn’t give you anything at all. All your ideas of democracy, capitalism, communism, all -isms that are nothing but mental projections. They are not reality because you have no capital. What will you distribute? Your capital is your Spirit and when you get that capital within you, distribute it. You cannot live without it.

Like me, for all practical purposes, I am a happily married woman. Our friends do not understand, “What is wrong with this woman? Why is she going around talking to people? What is she doing? Such a big capitalist. What is the need for her to go round?” But I am a capitalist inside and I must spread this, I must give this. I am the greatest communist, I should say that, because I must give it.

So the communism, or capitalism, and all these political ideas are absolutely parallel to what is inside, but it is not the genuine thing inside. All these mental projections I have told you, people just start believing. Like people believe that we are twice born. If you want to believe, you can believe you are a dog or an elephant. You can believe whatever you like. But that belief has no meaning at all, because it is not so. Supposing I believe I am the governor of Los Angeles. They’ll say, “You’ve gone mad.”  That’s what it is, because if you believe into something and you start acting, it is always a falsehood, it’s medical [problem].

Now Christ also, or any one of them, came and they said, “You believe in that”, what they were saying.  What Christ said?  That you believe that there is God, that he is the Son of God, is a fact. But you are not become the son of God. When you start believing that, “We have Christ in our Pocket”, then you are sadly mistaken. Christ is very far away from you, just know. So mentally if you accept any situation like that, then you become a complete barrier to Truth. There’s nothing can go into your head because you think, “Oh, what? I go to church, all right. I pay money for the church.” Church is not Christ.  So now churches are selling in England and they are making pubs out of them, actually pubs and people will be even worse there because all dead bodies are lying down below and here they are going for drinking. What is going to happen to them? It’s a serious matter for me.

So, this it what it is that, when we start believing into something, we also believe we are that. Some people read Gita and when they read Gita they believe they are Vyasa themselves, the one who wrote it. But some of them believe they are Shri Krishna themselves.  To this extent people go, to believe that themselves are Shri Krishna, they talk like Shri Krishna. Now the Shri Krishna’s qualities are there? If I say I am Christ. All right, you should say that, “If you are Christ, walk on the water.” And if I say, “I am the Holy Ghost”, then you should say, “All right, raise our Kundalini.”  It is said that if you can raise our Kundalini then you are the Holy Ghost, otherwise you cannot raise en-masse. That’s the point and if that is so, then you should accept someone as something. It is already written down. But on the contrary, people start believing they are the Holy Ghost. I met people like that. They said, “We are the Holy Ghost, we are Christ, we have to just keep it.” What an ego. And that is what makes people absolutely closed to truth. They cannot seek truth because they want to believe that they are already there, they have got it, only they have to keep it. It is a wrong thing, you still have to have it.

But in our practical life, you don’t do that. In practical life, supposing we just believe that this is mine, it does not become mine, does it? And if I go and say, “No, this is mine”, I will be put into jail. Anything like that you don’t believe unless and until you have it. Supposing I say, “Sit down here. There is a chair”, will you sit? You first see that it is there. In the same way in our spirituality we are just the opposite. We want to believe because we know that nothing is going to be challenged.

And that is how we close our Self to reality. We have to be, we have to become and that is the problem of Sahaja Yoga, that you cannot become a Sahaja Yogi unless and until you become. There is no certificate. There is no payment. Thus we cannot say. It has to become. Unless and until you are a tree, we cannot call a seed a tree. That cannot be done. Nor you would like to call. Now that’s how it is, we have to humbly accept that we have to become. If we really humble down on that point that we have to become, that all our knowledge has been of no use, that it’s non-knowledge, then only it happens.

There was a great poet in India called Surdas. He was a blind poet. He has written lots of poems describing his agony to meet God and such poems people like because they, too, have the same agony. So they like to sing, “When will I meet you, when will it happen?” and all that. So he sang all this, but after all that the last thing he wrote was very beautiful, that:  (Hindi) –

“Oh Lord Shri Krishna, please remove my non-knowledge. So far I have written ‘sursadaka.’ ” Oceans of his poems, he says, is nothing but non-knowledge, “So just remove it.” The knowledge has to be felt on your consciousness, on your central nervous system. All other things, like people start jumping, going under the blanket, saying that our guru is great. You cannot even make out whether he is a true guru or non-guru. How can you say that he is your guru? A guru has to be a person who knows everything about it and he is above money, above all these material things and he creates nothing but compassion.

I agree, many can say that, “Mother, because you were not here, we went to other people.” But it is not true. I was the first to come here. Ten years back I came here but you were not happy with me at that time. You did not like me very much, because I had no Rolls Royces. They actually asked me, “Mother, how many Rolls Royces have you got?”

I said, “Rolls Royces, for what?”

They said, “They all collect Rolls Royces here.”

I said, “I have come to collect my own children. I have not come to collect Rolls Royces.” 

So they asked me, “Then how do you explain these people who come here in the name of God and try to collect Rolls Royces?”

I said, “I cannot explain because I cannot stoop down to their level. I can’t understand their level because to take even a little bit from someone free itself is parasitic. If someone gives me a present even materially I think I should be paying back, somehow or another, I must return. It’s very hard for me to accept even a little thing from you people whom I am giving this, because I have to give. It’s to be given, it is your own. I am like a banker, it’s your right to have it, so I have to give it. And in return to take Rolls Royces is so parasitic and is so below level. There is no self-respect.” So I asked the gentleman who was asking me a question, “Supposing I tell you come in my house and live freely, will you do that?”

He said, “No.”

I said, “Then to take a Rolls Royce free from someone on other people’s money, is it not parasitic? What are they doing to get the Rolls Royce, what work have they put in, what material things they are doing that they should ask for Rolls Royce?”

People get enamoured by these Rolls Royces. The gentleman who has Rolls Royces here, I met him before. He didn’t know that I know all these things very well. I just camouflaged myself quite a lot, and I wanted to know what he is doing to the people, and he said, “You know what is going to impress the people in the West? Big, big houses and great big cars.” He himself wanted to buy a Mercedes at that time and we had a Mercedes and he wanted to talk to me about it if I would sell the Mercedes to him. Just imagine. He knew at that time that you people would be more impressed by Rolls Royces. Just imagine such a thing to happen.

So we have many contentions and many ideas about things. In Sahaja Yoga gradually they drop out. I don’t want to shock you because you will think, “Oh, Mother, this is all so in-born.”

Like a homosexual came to me and he asked, “Mother, what do you think of homosexual?”

I looked at him and I said, “All right, I will explain to you. Sit down.” I took about half an hour to explain to him how he became homosexual and how it is enslaving him. It is a joyless pursuit, he will never have joy, and moreover, those who are today born have a greater responsibility because they should have sane marriages to allow the great saints to be born in this country. Only devils will be born under such circumstances, only devils. Who can face a circumstance when mother is marrying ten times, father is marrying twelve times, and the child, his innocence is all the time attacked?

So we have to have sane, good marriages if you want the saints to be born here, and without their births we cannot see the saving of this madness that’s going on. But I told him very clearly how it has come. Because yesterday and also the day before yesterday I spoke of that, how the homosexuals were created in this country or in any country in the West. In India we did not know all this, it’s so unnatural, and we must have been primitive people because you are so advanced you know and we don’t know about these things. Actually I could not eat my food for eight days thinking that now they are doing this, it’s too much.

But actually what has happened is your laws. Your laws are very funny. The laws are such that if a man marries a woman then he’s in for trouble because he loses half of his money with the first wife, then half of it with the second, then half of it with the third. By the time he is third time married he is just broke. This is the law. I have seen women very rich, very well-off and the husbands absolutely paupers. Same lady marrying one husband looking like a pauper, absolutely has no money. This is one of the laws which is very, very imbalanced and creates a problem between husband and wife quite a lot because the whole thing becomes money oriented. And I know of somebody who is a great Sahaja Yogini in America. Her mother has married now 10 times, she is older than me and now this is her eleventh marriage she is arranging.

So that is what she is doing and that is how she is quite a moneyed lady and I don’t know how she manages that, how she is befooling so many men and managing that. The marriage becomes just a joke. Secondly this is one of the reasons why men don’t want to marry women, because there is no equality of sharing and that is one of the reasons why they thought it is better to have a man as a companion or a spouse.

Another thing which is very wrong within us is that the women don’t understand their responsibility and because men oppressed them so much. At the time of Abraham Lincoln the men were horrid, absolutely, much worse than Indian men. They used to oppress women, they used to do all kinds of things and women were denied all kinds of rights. So as a result of that, now women have become men, and they’re trying to dominate. When I see an American woman, I am quite surprised how they treat their husbands. That is a trick they must know of the woman how to treat the husband to put him right. She is a mother. And the tricks you don’t know. Me of course, our husbands are just with us throughout, but we know the trick and you don’t know the trick. You are trying something which won’t work out because you are not an instrument for that. For example, this is an instrument for emitting my voice and if I start using it for playing a tape recorder it can’t.

So a woman is a woman and a man is a man, and if a man tries to be a woman and a woman tries to be a man, there is going to be a problem. But that does not mean that a woman should sit at home and look after the children. It doesn’t mean that at all. But the woman’s qualities are of nourishment, are of soothing, are of compassion. They’re such powerful qualities, you don’t know. Your compassion is so great that your children cannot go anywhere. Anything happens they must come to you. The husband cannot go anywhere. He has to come. Compassion is so pure and so great that the power of compassion you have never realized. This is the power of compassion of God, is His feminine, the Mother that is working it out. He is just the witness of the whole show. He is not bothered. If you people don’t behave all right, he just switches off everything. The switch off is very anxious. Because He’s just a Spectator, He is the lonely spectator of the whole spectacle and He can just switch off the whole spectacle if He does not like it.

So the Mother has to play a very beautiful role, very carefully she has to nourish her children, she has to look after them, she has to bring them up, and should be then entering into the Kingdom of God. Then only you can enter into the Kingdom of God and that is a thing of great patience, love and tremendous power. If you don’t have power, say if this Mother Earth did not have power, she could not have borne us. With all the kinds of horrible things going on, the way we are digging her, the way we are torturing her, she would have collapsed long time back. But she has such a tremendous power of forgiveness, of compassion, love and nourishment that she is activated. And your Kundalini is the same Mother Earth, she is the representation of the same Mother Earth, the same Holy ghost, of the same kumbha – as you call it, the Aquarius. That’s the Aquarian Age they call it because this is the Age when you will get your nourishment. Your own Kundalini is going to nourish you, she is going to soothe you, she is going to guide you properly. The Mother is the greatest guru. I mean even the gurus have their mata. A guru has to be a mata otherwise how will they come? The whole absurdity has come to us out in the West from many religions, especially Christianity and Judaism, where they did not talk of the Mother at all. That was not the time to talk, because at the time of Abraham, they had to talk of the Father, then at the time of Christ they had to talk of the Son. That was the time because if He had talked about his own mother they would have killed her and then He would have come out with his eleven destroying powers. He would have finished the whole show once for all. So He never talked about the mother power.

Now the time has come for the Mother power and I was told that in the thirteenth century somebody, [to Dr. Warren, “What was his name?”

“Joachim de Fiore.” ]

He talked about this, that it was the time of the Father, then the manifestation of the Son and the manifestation of the Mother is awaiting. And when this manifestation takes place, as a result of that only, you get your realization.

But those people who want to take advantage, only talk of the doomsday. They don’t talk of the resurrection day. Now if you read Koran – I deliberately tried to understand it because my father translated it into Hindi language – it mostly describes the resurrection times and very little of the dooms times. But the doom is described more because they want to frighten everybody, “The doomsday is coming, better get converted, doomsday is coming,” just to frighten people. In that He [Mohammed] has very clearly said that at the time of resurrection your hands will speak. They have all talked of the future. Christ has talked about the future, that He’ll send you a comforter and He’ll send you the Holy Ghost. He has talked about it, everyone of them has talked. About fourteen thousand years back in India, a great astrologer, he is the originator of astrology, Bhrigumuni, has written a book, Nadi Granth in which he has clearly said that this age will come when the Parabrahma, the Mother – the Parabrahma is the Adi Shakti, we call it Primordial Mother’s power – will come and in 1970 this will start as Sahaja. The Kundalini will rise and there will be no need for hospitals and all that. If it works out, we can avoid the third world war. He’s clearly said fourteen thousand years back. And if it is not working, then there will be a problem, most of the people will be destroyed and then only the yogis will take over. Means these yogis are Sahaja Yogis. This is very clearly said in that, so it was already prophecised so many years back for us. And William Blake has prophecised that men of God will become prophets and they’ll have power to make others prophets. The amount of details William Blake has written I don’t think even Markandeya has done that. He, of course, Markandeya has described even the shape of my knees and all that. But this one [Blake] has described even the exact house where I’ve lived, all the houses, and even the ashram where we are going to live. Imagine, to that extent this William Blake has written. So you can understand how far he has gone deep into the whole thing and he was such a great seer born in England which is the heart of the universe.

So now as they must have told you that this is the Vishuddhi Chakra of the universe. Did you tell them that?

Dr. Warren: Not yet.

Shri Mataji: All right so I leave it to them to tell you. And what are the responsibilities, I mean the responsibility lies here and how the Americans have responsibility, I mean, you have been very noble people throughout. You’ve talked of such noble things and you’ve believed in it and you always fought for the noble side of life.   But now if, one by one, you start destroying yourself from within, the whole thing can fritter out. So we have no right to destroy ourselves because we cannot create even a hair. We have no business to say, “What’s wrong?” Whatever is wrong against life, whatever is anti-life is anti-God. God has created you, you have not created it yourself, so don’t take up responsibility to ruin yourself. Only thing what you can do is to cure yourself, you have to soothe yourself, respect yourself. Even when you do something, know that are you doing out of respect for yourself or you are just doing because your ego is saying, “What’s wrong?” Like these punk rocks, going on with that kind of absurd things on the road, like a clown they are moving, making themselves such a nuisance while you’re teared. And in England it is very common to see these people. But when they come to me after that, I find their eyes are becoming blind. And it’s become a great strain for me to clear that because these horrible dyes make your optic lobe so heavy that your eyes become blind. These things have very serious effects. You must know that and you must learn all about it, how this affects you.

Also you must learn as Sahaja Yogis, how to talk to others. First of all, among the Sahaja Yogis, you are all one. You are part and parcel of the whole which is awakened in you. All should keep together as one and gradually you will understand how beautiful you all are because you are all saints. Respect each other, you are saints. How can you insult anyone who are saints? So first of all give up those bad habits of talking and barking at others, try to love each other, respect each other, be very, very kind to each other and if possible try to express it through some material gifts or through some material help in the sense, not that you give money or all that, but we can send some little present sometimes or we can just try to look after the comfort of the other person, put our attention to them, how you could be nice to them. There is no need to be slavish, there is no need to be pampering their ego but know that, “As I am the saint, he is the saint.” If you see the real saints when they meet, they meet in such a big way, you see that as if the two hands are rising, the five fingers are rising all in unison, in concord.  Imagine one hand is going like this, another like this you can’t do any work. So you belong to one collective being, and all of you should understand and establish complete concord among yourselves.

As far as the others are concerned, there are others. So when they are the others, then you have to talk to them very sweetly, quietly, gradually opening the truth about Sahaja Yoga because Sahaja Yoga is a very great truth and not easy to guesstimate. It’s a very great thing. It’s impossible, especially for ego-oriented people because they have like a snake all the time – the ego is sitting and just refuses to see things and that’s how it’s very difficult. So gradually open out, one by one, everything. Unless and until you find them all right, don’t tell them because they’ll shun up. Of course it does not matter, they are the losers, but as we have to be compassionate towards them, we have to save them, we have to be careful not to tell them. Like a person’s getting drowned and you are a swimmer so you tell that person, “Keep quiet, don’t pull your hands, be careful.”

Sometimes they might answer, “Why not I am also going to do it?”

So if they do it they’ll fall, so then you have to tell them, “If you do like that you are going to fall out,” and you just release your hands for a while and let them see for themselves and then they’ll know, “Oh, God, I am going down.” And so then they’ll keep quiet. So to give them a lesson also a little bit is important, but in such a gentle way that they’ll understand that if you have to go ahead you have to learn about it, gradually come up and do not blast them suddenly. If you blast them, then they will be all shattered. They are already in pieces, the whole world is in a big turmoil, in a big tension and whatever we have to do, we have to do it with great care, and love, and affection, and understanding.

So with others you have to be gurus and to understand not like the other gurus are. And the real gurus are just the opposite of these gurus who are taking money from you. I mean better keep off from the real ones because they can hit you very hard. I know of someone who told me that, “Mother, if somebody troubles you, you better send him over to me.” I said all right. I did not know he was such a harsh man and this gentleman was troubling me too much. I said “All right, you go and see that guru once.” 

He was so elated because this guru does not see people normally. So he went all the way, he climbed on the mountains, reached him, and he started talking about me: “Oh, Mother has become so generous. She gives it to every Tom, Dick and Harry, she should not do this, it is not proper, she is cheapening Sahaja Yoga in all these years”. He said, “Really? You think so, you are wiser than that, isn’t it?” Then he made him sleep there.

Next time I see him was when he came with both the legs broken and put around his neck and dangling like that you see, in the hall. I was sitting and tears started rolling in my eyes. I said, “What is this? Who has done this to you?”

He said, “The guru has done this.”

I said “How?”

He said, “I was sleeping and..” (The guru’s hands and feet are broken by people. He uses a tiger to move about) “So the tiger came and he threw me in a cut and I fell down and it was about twelve – fifteen feet down. I fell down and I broke my both the sides here and I called and called, nobody came. And then after three days he put some chapatis – as you call like your pita bread – down saying that, “Eat that now.” I was there, I was urinating, doing everything there, in that filth I was there. After 5 days he picked me up. When I went up he said, “How dare you talk about Mother? Now you put these legs around your neck and go to her dangling like this and she will cure you, not me. So go and tell her all about it.”

I said: “What are you doing?” I will ask this guru, “Why should you do like that?”

Another fellow, a doctor I sent him who had gone very much wrong. He made him carry two buckets of water all the way to the mountain and clean one Shiva temple which is all neglected. Poor fellow, when he came, he was thin, just bones. I asked, “What happened, Doctor?”

He said, “I was told to do this exercise for a month”.

So when I met him, I asked him, “What do you mean by treating them like this. It was too much.”

He said, “They are donkeys and donkeys must be treated like donkeys. That’s my principle. You want to convert donkeys into good men, all right, you try, but I am not going to do that.” He told me very frankly.

So, the real gurus don’t take any money but they really take you to task. Anybody who takes money, be sure that he is not a guru at all. You cannot take any money from the people. Now supposing if  these people want to build some sort of an ashram. All right, go ahead. I have nothing to do. I don’t want to see accounts or anything. You do among yourselves. I have nothing to do and everyone should know how the money is spent, where they have spent it, how it has happened. Everyone should know but I don’t want to have the money because I don’t understand money. So better not have it then. So this is what an attitude should be for you people, that in money matters also we should be very straightforward.

Now the point that I want to tell you is that as Danny has told me that people in Santa Cruz don’t have the sustenance to stick to Sahaja Yoga. It’s very surprising that they don’t have sustenance. But to me Americans seem to be doing guru shopping all the time. They go here, here, here, here – all over – and this is a temple where you enter in, you settle down. If you go on digging everywhere for the well, what do you get? Nothing. So wherever you get little water go and dig in more, then settle down. Even if you got little bit you go on digging in more and more and that is how you’ll settle down as real sahaja yogis. So as you know that, Sahaja Yoga is not a thing that we have any organization as such, or we have any granting of diplomas, degrees, or courses. Nothing like that. Some people I’ve seen go, so fast, surprising, and some people are so slow, that I don’t know what category I should put them, they come, go. Like we used to read in our mathematics before, a man came for five days, worked, ran away and then another man came who worked for two days, ran away. All of them are runaways. If that type of people are there in Sahaja Yoga, nothing will work out. This work nor any answer to that mathematics will never be done. So, this is what it is.

So, for you people it is important to know that you have to sustain yourself in Sahaja Yoga. It is very important because there is a drag. First it is a material drag. Matter always drags you – comfort, this, that. Whatever you may say that you are a non materialistic, it will drag you down; that and other things like intellectuals feats that you have gone through and the mental conception. You must see the truth and accept it. Don’t accept anything even when I am telling you because it is not proper. You must have an open attitude but you’ll find gradually that if you find about nine points true then you must believe in 100 points because it is so, and go ahead with it. This is what belief means, it does not mean that we should believe that now you have become like primordial masters. That’s a wrong attitude. So I would say that gradually you are all going to grow into great people. You have before you some people sitting here who have grown like that and some people have grown suddenly like that. Some of them were following so many other things, then they dropped it in a second. They dropped it in such a quick understanding. But some are very slow people. And Sahaja Yoga has a double type of a force, one is centripetal and the other is centrifugal, and through that another type of a thing you go round and just you are thrown out at a tangent.

So be careful. Try to remain in Sahaja Yoga. It’s within yourself that you have to remain,  Sahaja Yoga is all within yourself so try to remain within yourself and follow the methods of Sahaja Yoga which are actually what we call the Shudda Vidya, is the pure knowledge: how to handle your powers, how to cure your chakras, how to nourish yourself and how to reach the state where you just become joy. All those things you have to understand and do it for yourself and you have to do it for others also in the same way. But if you are not established, you yourself are still lingering with other things, then this transformation is not established. Then people are not going to believe. Like an egg you were, now you’ve become like a bird. But the bird has to come out of the shell completely, has to be a clean bird, has to know how to fly out properly. Then only you’ll be called as really transformed bird. Because ‘bird’ in Sanskrit language is called ‘dwijaha’, means ‘twice born’. And that happens to human beings also. That’s why at the time of Easter we give eggs because we are eggs and with Christ’s resurrection we have to become the bird. And that is why we have to learn. So many things you will know which you have not known before. All the symbols, all the things that we have known from outside, you will know from inside and the whole thing will be completely integrated.

I hope I have one more chance to see you again and meet you again. But in any case I would like to have questions from you if possible. But there is no need for Sahaja Yogis to be aggressive with me. But be careful about murmuring souls, as Christ has said. There are some people who are half-baked, they play into the hands of negativity and they go on murmuring at the back and they won’t allow you to progress. We have some people even now after ten years, they continue slowly, slyly working out at the back range you see, and try murmuring and put you down. So you go according to your own understanding and don’t according to the other understanding, but gradually you’ll find you’ll come to the open space of complete reality.

May God bless you.

I would like to have questions.

(A seeker asks a question while everybody in the room settles down closer to Shri Mataji.)

Shri Mataji: Very good, you have said the right thing at the right time which I wanted to tell you about. Very much. You see the chart that is here?  Now the whole thing is that the naïveness of the Western people has been exploited by the people who wanted to really take advantage of you. How they discovered that you are very naïve at things was this, that so many people, even Jung was a realized soul, no doubt, but even Jung was misled there. Of course, Freud was very much misled and so many of them were. And when they read their books, they said this is the chance to hit them. As I said I don’t read much but I had to talk to Jungians, so I saw some of their diagrams, and I was shocked because what was there was they showed the human being as such: the unconscious first, a layer, then an unconscious that will manifest, then the subconscious, then the conscious mind on top of the ego. Such a jumble box. And this must have given a key to these people to come down here. That means that if you have to go, now see how it is, layer by layer, they have put, it’s a self–conviction. If you have to go to unconscious down below, as it is said, then you have to go through subconscious. So when they knew that these people are willing to go to the subconscious, they came here and they started talking about it.

Actually it is not like this, they are not placed one on top of another. They are vertically placed, that’s a clear part here. God is the greatest organizer. If I have to come inside, you won’t keep all the people there, all these things there for me to cross through, will you? I mean you’ll organize in a way that there should be movement, isn’t it? Even in an airport if you go you won’t put all the hurdles between where all other people have to pass through. I mean, He is the greatest organizer so He organized it this way, beautifully done, that the path in the center is kept open for you to ascend ultimately. All right?

The subconscious is on the left-hand side, the supraconscious, the future side is on the right-hand side, so you don’t have to go to these places. Those people who take LSD and all that go to the right side, those people who go to some of these gurus, I mean some gurus are also right-sided. Like Hitler used that supraconscious. He got it from lamas. So what happens that when without realization you try to push your attention to the left or the right you go into these things where you get caught up into the collective subconscious on the left and the collective supraconscious on the right and you start getting all this nonsense. And by that, you can be anything. People in the left side can suffer from all these incurable diseases like cancer, aids, myelitis. All these diseases, they come from left side entry. Even doctors have accepted. I saw there one film where they talked about triggering. First of all they say it has to be vulnerable, means too much of sympathetic activities. Supposing you have this chakra here like this and this is the vertebra, left and right.  Now if there is too much sympathetic, means left or right activity, then it opens out and the connection with the whole is lost. What happens, you start moving towards the left. Once you start moving towards the left, you enter into the subconscious area and then you enter into the collective subconscious where you are catching from other people – collective subconscious. It is not consciousness but subconscious you are touching there.

For example I’ll tell you a simple thing like flirting is also the same thing. You’ll be amazed, flirting is. We can’t flirt, we can’t. Our eyes are too simple to flirt. There’s nothing inside to flirt with. It’s a joyless pursuit. What happens is that the spirit guides the flirting. I was amazed when somebody told me this.

I said, “Why is it?”

But I saw people getting the spirit from one eye to another. I didn’t know how it works out but once somebody told me, he was standing with me on the platform and suddenly he turned round. He said, “See, there is a woman standing there.”

And I said, “But you never saw her, but her spirit collectively, as you said, behind. She was behind the gentleman, so he caught it, collectively you see suggested. And this spirit informed that spirit and the thing worked out, and he turned round.  Because eyes are not innocent, the eyes have the spirits in them. There is lust and greed, and if you have lust and greed in your eyes, then these spirits come to help you down. They also enjoy their lust and greed through your eyes or through your behavior. So then you are there and then you develop all these troubles of cancer and all that because the doctors said that when it is vulnerable for cancer, means there is too much of right and left side activity, then triggering takes place by the attack from the area that is built within us since our creation and the attackers are called as protein 52 and protein 58. Just imagine, they give them the name protein 52 and 58, but I told them these are nothing but spirits. Why these infections? Is nothing but the dead vegetables and animals which are gone out of circulation of your evolution. Whatever goes out of circulation goes and settles down there, and whatever is in the future, a futuristic man who lives in future, most of the western people live in future, they go to the supraconscious area.

I mean there are cases like somebody started suddenly painting like Gauguin. I know Gauguin, he is a great painter. He did the same strong lines, the colors and things, and he has some very beautiful painting. Like he has done a sunflower beautifully. Yellow is his favorite color, and one tape just in front of everyone on the television you could see it, and he said I am possessed by Gauguin. And Gauguin started talking, “Yeah, I have possessed you,” because he was mad, he died and he possessed him. But it was for a short time, and then Gauguin went away. It is perhaps, maybe, that I gave it a bandhan, perhaps, maybe. But that is what it is.

Whatever is happening to you is not siddhis. Siddhi is this when you become ‘siddha’, means ‘proved to be a realized soul’. These are called ‘shuddras’. ‘Shuddra’ in English means ‘untouchable’, ‘one should not touch them’. This is very low and that is what people think to be advancement like people start jumping. You know these Mahesh Yogis people when they came to me, they were jumping on the first seat. I said, “Now what is happening here?”

They said, “We are flying in the air.”

I said, “Where? You are just jumping there like frogs. Where is the air? And put your guru to fly. Let us see if he can fly. Why not ask them to fly?” You should find out also the life of guru, how he is. Like the one who is supposed to be here, Bagwan, he calls himself God. He cannot smell a flower. If there are a thousand names of God, there are at least 30 names we say you are so fond of this flower, you are so fond of that flower. If he cannot smell a flower, then how can he be God? A flower is the most beautiful thing in the creation, isn’t it? And he cannot smell flowers? Such a man should be put in some filthy place. Then he will be happy there, I think. It’s what it is! You must understand if he does not like the fragrance of the flower, how can it be?

And all of them are so gross. They don’t know any sophistication of life, nothing. The aesthetics, if you see the way they live, it’s horrible. If you see the carpets they use, the amount of things they have, it is all nonsensical. You see that even they are not rustic there. I don’t know what to call them, they are very cheap type of people. They can’t talk to you about your philosophies or your music. They don’t know about Indian music leave any other music. They don’t know about Indian dancing, they don’t know about Indian traditions. Ask them why this is put, or why this is what, why this is what, they won’t be able to tell you. What are they talking about Brahma and this and that? Read some few books here and there and just started talking. Some of them have come direct from jail. But they are so confusing, I can understand they can confuse you because they talk another language which you have never heard before. But it is like going from fire to fire. This day it is not proper. You must understand that something must happen to you of which you should be the master. Simple. Supposing I’ll say I am such and such. All right, so what? What did I give you? What did you get? 

I am not surprised, my child, that you’ve got these things. I have seen people who have ended up into complete recluses. Absolutely horrible things have happened to them. But if you tell them also, they don’t want to hear. It is such a possession. They say, “Let us go to hell, doesn’t matter. Our guru will go to hell, we’ll go with him.” Really. They are so identified, I mean you can’t tell them. You just can’t talk to them. If you talk to them, they feel very hurt. They don’t know what harm it has done to them. They just don’t know.

Question: Should we have compassion for such teachers and such people that are affiliated with them?

Shri Mataji: First of all you develop your compassion, secondly discretion. You see it is a wasted compassion. What is the use of having compassion for Hitler? It is absolutely wasted. I have been to most of them, talked to them, told them, “What are you doing? You’ve come out of the hell, now you are again going to go back permanently there?” They won’t listen to me. It is wasted.

Dr. Warren: What about the people that are associated with them, she said.

Shri Mataji: Associated?

Dr. Warren: The disciples?

Shri Mataji: Try but very difficult, you know? Very difficult. Like one of the persons we had, John, in London who was very much worried about his friend who was really lost to this fourteen-year–old fellow. And he talked to him about it and they were driving in a car, and he just went haywired like this, and he had to jump out of the car. They couldn’t bear it. Yogi had compassion for three people from Rajneesh. I told him, “You bring them alone separately to me, not in the big crowd.” Because in India we have very big crowds. I said, “There will be problem.” But he had compassion. I told him, “Just don’t bring here.” At that time he did not understand what I was saying, but they brought them and they must be about 60 feet away from me, not very close. As soon as they stood up and saw me, they just collapsed. No energy in their body. When people tried to lift them, their hands would slip just like a fish. They didn’t know what to do. Five, six people had to literally lift that kind of a molasses from there and put them out. It was such a problem. So it’s not easy but gradually if they discover it, come to right conclusion and there still is something left, then you can manage.

Question: Mother, I have also had TM meditation training. So has my husband and we’ve been thinking for a very long time…

Shri Mataji: I know.

Question: But I’m here. We both attended the lectures and both got very touched and we got through.

Shri Mataji: That everybody does ‘till you discover. I must tell you about TM, horrid things about that, what happens actually.

Question: I wanted to come and just made that spontaneous decision to come and after I’d made the decision to go I said, “Oh, you don’t mind do you if I go?” He was very supportive of it and he wanted to come also but he wasn’t able to. Now I’m going to go home and…

Shri Mataji: You can manage it, I tell you. He formed a big organization in Scotland. There is a lake called Rannoch Lake and there was a gentleman who was a diamond merchant and his wife was the grand-daughter of a duke of England. She always tried to find all the rich people of the world, and he said, “You start this organization there” and it was called as the Academy of Flying. You see they used to pay six thousand pounds to go and do this thing. This girl was with him for eighteen years and they married about, I think, twelve years or so and then this gentleman has been for twelve years. And this lady got a horrible type of epilepsy which I have never seen. For three hours she used to go into that thing and used to shout and neck used to be pulled on and from the mouth you see all funny types of things used to fall out, she used to vomit, a terrible condition, nobody could control it, nobody could do anything. The daughter also got it, the husband got it, all of them got it, and the deputy director who also had inherited a lot of money from his mother also got it. So one of their friends, they all started wondering what’s happening to these people and they had become bankrupt because the money was not paid to them at all after three four years. They were spending all the money and they said, “Yes, yes, we are going to send you accounts” and this and that, and money was quite finished.

So what happened? Some people who knew them, who worked under them in the sense that they went and, so called, they learnt the siddha movements and all that, one of them had gone to a barber shop and they are not allowed to read anything. It’s such a mafia stuff. There was one book kept there, Yoga Today which had an article by David Baxter, and somehow he felt like reading and in that my photograph was there and David had said, “You can put your hands on this and see for yourself if you have got realization or not.” And when he put it, he went into contortions. He had such a fright and then closed the book and telephoned.

We have a very simple man called Douglas who was on the phone and he said, “Have you been to TM?”

He said, “yes.”

He said, “Are you boiling?”

He said, “I am perspiring.”

He said, “all right, come and see us.” So he went there. And I was in the house eating my food.

Suddenly an SOS came from the ashram. “Mother, somebody has come called David Frawl and we just told him your name and he’s going into contortions. He cannot stop it. Better come here. It is just an SOS.”

I said, “Let him go into contortions for a while and I’ll work it out.” Then I gave a bandhan and all that and then when he went back he saw that it was stopped. Then this David Frawl called these people. They were so frightened of this Mahesh Yogi. They came to see me in a very far-fetched place somewhere outside London and there they told me that this is all that has happened to them and all that. They had no money even to come to that. I brought them in my car, they stayed in my house. Imagine, these rich people lost everything and then I cured all of them.

Now they are all right but the husband became such a bankrupt he had to go away to South Africa. His wife was so frightened. She is cured now, she is with Yogi there and now she is a normal person. Still she gets lots of problems. And then she told me that this man had raped her when she was seventeen years of age. This is when she was thirty-five this has happened. And she had conceived a child from him and then she had an abortion and since then she is under trance, absolutely under his control. Even when she came to me she used to go into trance, “I love him, I love him.” This old gentle fellow, four feet two inches. I don’t know what made her love him. And he is very romantic, all that. But what happened, before coming to me she went to News of the World and she had told them that, “I want to give this about Mahesh Yogi.” Everything she told and it was all published, everything was done, and then she came to me.

I told her, “You should not have told this. This is a stigma for your children.”

But she said, “Mother, I have done it and they’ll sue me for this.”

I said, “All right, go ahead.” And nobody bothered. So many people have written about TM but they go to it again and again. I don’t know how to bring them round. He is a very powerful force that way because he really somehow traps people. And his main organizer I know very well. He is a very clever man and a big man in the government of England. I know him because my husband was also in the government, and he told me that Mahesh Yogi says that unless and until you involve them through money, these Americans can never be put round. And to such an extent he thinks that they have a right to extract money from you people.

Question: I paid two hundred dollars when I didn’t really have it.

Shri Mataji: Only two hundred is nothing. It doesn’t matter.

Dr. Warren: Mother, I think one of the things she is worried about, too, is that she’s here and her husband is not here and she is worried that in some way she will be …

Question: Our marriage is really bonded.

Shri Mataji: It will work out. You just don’t worry. He will come back. You give him a bhandan. We’ll teach you how to do it. You’ve got his photograph? We’ll work it out. It’s not difficult. You take some tapes also for him to listen to. They help also.

Then when she came to consciousness she told me so many things that this man used to giggle at people because he just feels how stupid these people are. And he said that I’m going to established a world government. He wrote to all the people and he would carry gold chairs behind all these so-called ministers. Now it has come to such a point that there was a lady called Miss Dee. They were trying to make something for the TV and they have lots of money, they don’t know what to do with their money. If you see their lifestyle you’ll be surprised. So this lady Dee she was working for a man who was a German and whose son is involved with TM. She did not know. She went to all these places, she will take secret cameras. But this man tried to maneuver it in such a way that he would show levitation through camera tricks. That came up on her conscience. One day she came to my program and she has a paralyzed hand and it started pulsating and she was surprised at it and then her conscience became very strong and she just refused to have that and she burned everything that he had done, all these camera tricks. She lost 30,000 pounds in that, but she said, “It doesn’t matter. I have saved so many people. This would have been a terrible thing to show.” They have money.

Question: This person had been doing it for some time and I wonder what damage has happened to the chakras?

Shri Mataji: Quite a lot, especially this left Vishuddhi. It’s very badly damaged because of the mantra. But they will teach you.

Question: I’ve had pain.

Shri Mataji: Yeah, you will get pain. People will become recluses. Even if you show them a garlic they get tremendous… They can’t bear it. They can’t see an incense, they cannot see a church, they can’t see my photograph. Now what you can do is to ask them. Write it down what is to be done. Ha, we have someone here, just in front of you, from TM. He’ll tell you all about it, how to do it. Ha.

Question: Mother, can you talk about unconditional love and what the concept is?

Shri Mataji: It will happen to you, my child. It cannot be described. It just flows, just flows, just flows. You can see it in the sunshine. Sunshine just comes. If you hide from it, it won’t run after you. It does sometimes a little bit, not much. It tries all the angles so that it should reach you. But if you are clever, too clever, then you can manage to get out of it.

Question: I have never seen you before today but last night, every hour, I woke up and heard in my head I was calling you and you were near. It was like volcanos. I was talking to one of the other people here. It was bubbling wherever you were in the Earth.

Shri Mataji: You describe true. It’s nice you are so sensitive to it. But now, you should just see my peaceful side. It’s better.  I have many sides, I must say. Volcanos are there, no doubt. They have to work out also.

Question: A lot of us have been on this path for years and years and have experienced a state where there was union and there was bliss and then there’s that dry period. It starts and continues and continues and continues. And in that point that’s where one tries separate paths to try to find a way back. I think that’s why there is that shopping around.

Shri Mataji: You live in that position on Earth in the sense that your brain is like a prism. The human brain has a special capacity, more than the animals have. In them the ego and superego are balanced in the head and that it has risen high like that. In the prism, if you know the laws of science, when the rays fall on that and when there is a double type of density in the brain because you have gray cells and white cells, it goes into refraction and when it goes into refraction, the one ray that falls, the ray of consciousness goes into refraction and that refraction passes like this. Some of it goes inside and crosses this way and that way. So when it comes out, that is the resultant. I don’t know if there is a scientist sitting here. That is the result of two forces – one goes out and one goes inside. This attention that goes out makes you see things more outside than inside and most of it is outside. Human attention is outside. If I tell you put your attention inside you cannot. But when you get realization, what happens, the Kundalini rises. And when that happens, then your attention gets sucked in and that’s how you start feeling inside. Because your Kundalini is not awakened, your attention goes outside. But little bit you go inside also. Because the resultant is like this. Sometimes a little goes inside and then again you come out. Another thing is that a thought rises and falls off, another thought rises and falls off. In between there’s a very little space and that’s the present. You touch that. But normally you jump on the cusps. But suddenly you see some beautiful thing or something that’s emitting vibrations, then you just go there. You just slip from your thoughts and go there. But for a split of a second. That’s why it happens. But after realization that space improves and you are above that.

These people don’t explain anything, do they? Just tell you a mantra, go ahead with the mantra and most of these mantras mean nothing – useless. One of them is “tinga,” means this… Showing somebody like this, imagine. And “inga.” ‘Inga’ means ‘the tail of a scorpion’. 

[Conversation continues on the subject of mantras from false gurus who obviously do not know Sanskrit].

Question: What does ‘shaum’ mean?

Shri Mataji: “Shaum?” It could be “shiam” but “shaum?” Because he doesn’t know Sanskrit. Also in Sanskrit there is nothing like “-ing.” He must have got it from “Ing-land.” None of them know Sanskrit. What can they talk about God from Indian level. At least he should know something of Sanskrit.

Question: Could you comment on cosmic light, ascended masters, etc.

Shri Mataji: All stories. Don’t believe them. One of them I met who said there was an ascended master in Shambala. I said, “What is Shambala?” It is Sambaala in Sanskrit. ‘Sambaal’ means ‘parallel to your head, to your forehead’, that is the limbic area. What they call Shambala is Gobi Desert. Imagine, horrible people. Let ‘them’ go to Gobi Desert, direct march towards eternity. Nobody can walk even half a mile in the desert. You can’t get any water, you can’t get anything and they are taking people now from Spain. I heard many people are going to Shambala which is in Gobi Desert. Imagine in Gobi Desert only the dead must be living, those who must have lost their ways. That’s one of the deserts you cannot enter into. It’s a horrible place. All this nonsense came here. The other day a lady I met in Ohio. She said, “We have got a place where the master speaks to us.” I said, “Really?” So I went there and they were all “m-m-m-m-m-m-m.”  I said, “Where is your master?”

“He is not speaking.” “Ah, he doesn’t speak! He’s some sort of a dead body somewhere lying” I said. 

There is no one like that. These masters if they are real they don’t act like this. They act in a very different way. They can come in your dreams, all right. They come in your dreams and tell you lies. They can say, “Shirdi Sainath,” who was the last primordial master who came on this Earth, and those people who follow Shirdi Sainath have seen him coming in their dreams telling that, “I am Mataji, you go to Mataji.” All those things they do. But these horrible people are just taking names like that, all these “enlightened masters.” What have they cured? This is the main thing you must understand. Supposing somebody says that, “In the supermarket this is available, it’s very good and cheap, I’ve used it.” Then you go and buy that. In the same way you should find out what are the seekers, where are they, have they got it, what did they get. Now we have got here Warren and we’ve got all these people. You talk to them and you’ll be surprised, they are knowledge. How is it they’ve got it. But what happens to the seekers you must see. They still have questions, they still don’t understand anything, they are in a mess, they have not found anything. So whatever one might say, why should you believe? You must first of all verify. It’s so simple. It’s so logical. Don’t put your brain for sale. Just see that it is there, you understand it. Through your brain’s capacity you can reach the right conclusion and then, after reaching the right conclusion, can you jump in.

Question: You brought up a point about dreams. How do you read dreams?

Shri Mataji: Dreams are coming from that red center there.

Question: The lowest one?

Shri Mataji: Yeah. And this is the subconscious that works out. When you dream, you go on this center and then you start going down, your attention goes down and you start receiving the information from this center. But what happens, because there are many other stratas through which you pass, like there’s the path of subconscious. Now the subconscious has many stratas. It has the collective subconscious, it has a pure past, then you have the collective subconscious where the dead are there, then you have got the subconscious which was yours in previous lives from animal stage to this stage. Then you have got the subconscious of this life and then you have the subconscious of today. Whatever happens today is there, also. Whatever happens in the morning, is there also. So all these things it passes through. But if you have a very clear-cut passage in this subtle channel called as Ida Nadi, then you see the right things. If you have that clean thing. But people are perverted, they have all these complications on this center, then they don’t see the right things, see all absurd things. You never see continuous dream, you don’t understand, the dreams are so funny you can’t explain. Anything can happen. So the dreams can get absolutely mutilated.

Question: What I still don’t understand what helps that. I never dreamed before I started chanting and now I dream all the time and I don’t understand what’s going on.

Shri Mataji: But what do you dream?

Question: Water and waves.

Shri Mataji: But you don’t reach any conclusion with that do you?

Dr. Warren: Mother, she didn’t have dreams until she started chanting.

Shri Mataji: Lord knows. These bhoots are there. I don’t know what these people are up to. They give ideas. Even in dreams they can because they are in the subconscious. Lots of dreams could be very much handled by them. It can be anything. So just now, first of all, you must purify your left side, and then whatever dreams you get you can depend on them, very clearly. In dreams people have got instructions of Sahaja Yoga. Once I went to Bombay, I could inform some people that dreamt that Mother has arrived. It’s a telecommunication system but if the line is not all right, you can get any sort of a sound, meaning nothing. So better develop that first. Then you’ll be able to find out clearly.

Question: Does a particular kind of diet play an important part in Sahaja Yoga?

Shri Mataji: No, in Sahaja Yoga we don’t discard any general thing for anyone. Like if you might be a person who is a right sided person who might be a liver patient and yesterday I am sure there were many here, that’s why my liver started going like a big heart like a dub-dub-dub, it was terrible. So individually we have to see what is our requirement, what we lack in, what do we need. Everybody can find out and accordingly we have to take to that kind of a food. It’s not permanent. Once you are cured then you need not have. So there is nothing like that about food. But we don’t eat the meat of the bigger animals. Their muscles are bigger and they eat us off. Like if you eat horse meat then your teeth will be all finished. You’ll have no teeth left there. These are little things that we do, but you can eat chicken and goats and lamb. Also pigs in a country like India you should not eat, or in any Muslim countries. They are so dirty and their liver is so bad that they should not eat pigs. But meat, I think you people have eaten a bit too much. You can take to vegetarian food, not so much but a little more on the vegetarian side. You are already eating now all these things. Some people should not eat carbohydrates, some people should not eat vegetables. There are some people like that who should not. So we have to find out for ourselves whatever we need, that we should do for ourselves. There is no hard and fast rule about it, it’s all spontaneous. Like every seed requires an individual type of treatment.

Question: Asking about stimulants hurting our lower chakras.

Shri Mataji: Stimulants you can have like tea at the most, but too much of tea is also not. Too much of everything is bad so should be avoided. But if you have alcohols and all that, I don’t say don’t take but you won’t take because it goes against your awareness. Awareness is very important. There is no compulsion. Gradually you will give up. I don’t say don’t smoke, it just drops out.

Question: I’ve had a lot of good things happen in my life, I see a lot of positive in the room. I like the smell of a rose and at the same time I know there are thorns and there’s a lot of sadness and negativity in the world and I don’t want to turn my head to it and I don’t want to be overwhelmed by it. But it concerns me. I wonder how you feel about the things that come through, the sadness in the world.

Shri Mataji: You see sadness is of others. This can be quite mythical also. Sometimes people are sad for nothing at all. I’ve seen people who said, “Mother, we are feeling guilty.” People in Switzerland.

I said, “What are you feeling guilty about?

They say, “We are feeling guilty about Korea.”

I said, “Korea? Is that your responsibility? Why are you feeling sorry for them?” They are feeling sorry for this, sorry for that. Now have you any solution? That’s the point. If you have no solution then better find the solution. That’s the positive attitude. No use feeling sad about it. If you can’t find a solution, well and good, I can give you solutions for practically everything.

Question: I can understand what you’re saying and the way I got myself over that was to try and do some good for people who would come across my path.

Shri Mataji: That’s it, you find a solution. But in Sahaja Yoga the solution is so simple – give realization. People who are poor no more remain poor. They don’t become headache rich. They become normally all right. Those who are suffering from bad health get cured, those who have mental problems get all right, family relationships improve, children improve. So give realization because that’s the ultimate. Once the light comes in you start seeing the problem and also the curing of it.

Question: [Seeker talks about service and sacrifice]

Shri Mataji: What I gather is that Service and Sacrifice. Now let’s see this point of sacrifice, so called. Say my finger is sick, and I treat it. I just soothe it. Am I doing any service for that? Nothing, it’s my finger. When there is not the other, whom are you serving? Who is the other? In collective consciousness nobody is the other, you are serving yourself. So there is no service. What do I sacrifice? Nothing, there is a pain, I’d better get rid of it. There is no sacrifice. So the service and sacrifice is a myth, complete myth. There is nothing to serve. I am not serving you by any chance. I’m doing it because jolly well I have to do it. It’s for my enjoyment I am doing it. These are all mental ideas. It comes from ego. Whom do we serve? What work do we do? See now, we’ve got something dead. Tree, we make this floor, make this chair, make that. What? This is dead from the dead. And this dead is sitting on our head. Supposing we make a chair, we can’t sit on the ground. If we make a table then we cannot eat on the ground. So we become slave of that dead. Can we transform one flower into a fruit? We cannot. In India we have many missionaries. One of them got a Nobel Prize. This woman if you see her, you can count every wrinkle one by one. And such a hot-tempered woman. But she got a Nobel Prize. What can you do? She thinks she is doing service. What she’s done, she’s got money from Indians, big huge barracks and where the people are dying. She brings them there and they die comfortably. And she’s got a Nobel Prize. I don’t know what is there to be Nobel Prize in that. But it’s very simple. If she were a realized soul, she need not have brought them anywhere, just touched them, they are cured, they are saved. And if they have to die, it’s God’s responsibility not ours. Why do you want to save anybody who God wants to die? Let the person die. Of course, just to give a shelter and all that, if you have capacity you spend your own money for a shelter. Do we take others money like an agency and get a Nobel Prize? It’s not a good thing, I think. It’s not in the sense of grace.

Dr. Warren: Mother, distinguish between social work and God’s work.

Shri Mataji: Social work is your headache. You have made this problem. God has not created any problem. So don’t call God in between. God has nothing to do with social work. This is the God’s work. There is nothing social. It just works. The social workers can’t raise the Kundalini. They will cure you with the money they will accumulate from some agencies – World Bank, this bank, that bank – and then buy some medicines and give you. These medicines will kill you also. So many medicines are like that. You can just give realization to a person and finished. While we can’t believe it’s so fantastic, my child, you have that capacity within you where you don’t have to do any social work. Just touch somebody, it works. Just sitting down here, just do like this [bandhan]. It will work. You are that tremendous, so fantastic. Why do social work? That’s what it is. You understand now? May God bless you.

It’s nice you brought this point because this is very important. We think we should be nice to others. I was nice to others. Sometimes, really, I have to shout at some people when they are possessed and they run away. The first twelve Sahaja Yogis, one of them has now come to Bombay. The one I gave realization the first day he belonged to a community called as Gujarati who are very materialistic people. The others, Maharastrians – I am a Maharastrian born – they got among themselves, murmuring souls, started saying, “Mother is favoring these Gujaratis, not us. She didn’t give us realization.” And nobody told me but I knew this. Next day I really got with them very angry. I said, “You the people who say like this…” and how far I could go, I just say. Can you imagine that in that short time twelve people got their realization and they settled down into it? It’s so wonderful for us to see them. And since then they are there, all of them. This Mr. Pradhan’s father is one of them. He is now 79. I shouted at all of them and twelve of them got settled into it permanently. So sometimes you have to shout also.

Yogi: That’s the volcano.

Shri Mataji: That’s the volcano. But for children it’s not volcano. It can be a balloon bursting just to give a little warning.

Question: When a person comes into contact with realization, when they practice it and there is a time for them to pass and leave the body, what happens then? Do they come back?

Shri Mataji: Oh, they do come back, but in their own choice because they think that they have to do it more. Like some people have a body which is tired now, old, so they do come back to help me. So many are reborn, I know, who are realized souls of the ages. So many children want to be reborn who are great souls. That’s why I’ve said we have to have sane marriages, good marriages because those children are to be reborn. So, of course, they take their birth because this is why they are there. This is the judgment time, and they have to come down. So many are needed here on this Earth. So many are born realized in your country. You must know that.

Question: You said that this is the judgment time and I gather that and you have referred to this age as a very critical age, right? Could you talk more about that?

Shri Mataji: Yes and very precarious and critical because this is the time for which you have prepared. The whole preparation, the whole creation was done for this thing. Like you prepare a stage and now you have to act. According to the Indian calendar this is called as Krita Yuga and not anymore as Kali Yuga. Kali Yuga is the modern times of confusion but Krita Yuga is the time where the Parabrahma,  the Primordial Power will act. We’ll act! ‘Krita’ means ‘it will work’. So this is the most important time. What is the most important time of this machine (microphone) is when it is connected to the mains. Before that all it is doing is useless. This is the completion time – complete, absolute to be achieved at this time. So it is the most important time, no doubt.

Question: What is this time frame? You talk about this time and in God’s time, creation is billions of years. What is this time in a Framework I can understand? Is it a thousand years, a billion years?

Shri Mataji:  It could be even one year. So be careful. Better hurry up.

Question: Monday night in Los Angeles, somebody asked about the return of Christ and you said that Christ would come and someone said that Christ is living in London. Is that true?

Shri Mataji: That is a big joke. He never came before. Anybody says, “I’m Christ”, put him on the water, he goes down.

Question: Somebody asked you the other night that Christ would come and you said yes. I thought that’s what you said.

Shri Mataji: Yes, He’s going to come, no doubt, but when He comes he’s not going to have any meetings, no conference, no questions, nothing. He’s going to sort out.

Question: He’s going to what?

Shri Mataji: Sort out.

British questioner: Sort out, I know it.

Shri Mataji: I speak in English way because we learned English from English. But American is rather difficult for me. Tell them now in American language.

Danny: Sorting out. You’ll be filtered out. You’ll sort yourselves out. Those who are going to go the wrong way will go the wrong the way, those who have recognized…

Shri Mataji: Those who have to go to heaven will go to heaven, those who are useless people will be thrown into hell, those who are gone cases will be destroyed forever, and those who are there will be taken into the kingdom of heaven for the eternal life.

Question: Is that metaphorically speaking? Are you speaking symbolically?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no. Actually. Physically.

Question: You mean Jesus Christ, another person will come?

Shri Mataji: Yeah.

Question: If we are all one how can anybody be thrown out?

Shri Mataji: If there is a nail growing very badly you can cut it out. They become dead.

Question: Why is there light coming from the constellation Orion? Is that Christ coming?

Shri Mataji: You will see the result of all those things. There’re  lots of things happening and this is just one of them that is happening. Do you know that the sun is put off and put on just like a switch? Many things are happening. That’s just a wee bit of it. But there are so many things happening after all. The stage has to be worked out.

Question: Earlier this morning we heard that many things come through artists and this interests me because suddenly I’m aware over the last year, a great infiltration of musical people, people who are very talented are coming to the West Coast and I was about to give up music in England. I really wanted to give it up. I got fed up with the rat race and I have a letter completely out of the blue from a lady whom I didn’t know too well from Carmel, California that I should start again and that I was needed over here. Yet why she should use those words? When I came here I immediately found musicians, one after another, and am lead back into my field and I hope I may be singing at Davies Hall this Christmas time, which means I’m a complete stranger and it takes a musician a long time to get back into a musical field. But I’ve only been here two years, one without music…

Shri Mataji: They are becoming very sensitive in this country and really they are very simple people. That’s why I came here first. So many saints were given these bounties. You must count your blessings, what you have. Very few countries have this kind of climate throughout. God has blessed you specially for this. But like an Indian woman met me in a store and she said, “We heard you on the television and then a friend has come from India. He told me that Mother is just wasting her time in America.”

I said, “Why? Don’t you know I said many a times that saints are born in America? Why do you say like that?”

He said, “They may be saints but they are all lost saints,” because I was going to Los Angeles, you see, so he said, “They are all Lost Angels here.”

I said, “No, angels cannot be lost. They can fall but they cannot be lost. They are to be brought up.” And that’s why it is there in.

Question: I’m glad I caught up with you.

Shri Mataji: Yeah, very good. I’m very happy that you came from that horrible, sleeping England. They are still sleeping. Tamasa, the river Thames, is described in our old books as Tamasa river. ‘Tamas’ means ‘darkness’. And who meditated there was Dattatreya, the primordial master who meditated on the river Tamasa. So that’s in England, imagine! And since then they have tried to awaken England,. But you know England how it is, oh God! That’s the heart, the heart of the universe, it does not circulate any blood.

Question: Why do you call it the heart?

Shri Mataji: Because it is.

Question: When you say that England is the heart of the universe and the United States is the Vishuddhi of the universe, does that mean that planet Earth has a special place in the universe?

Shri Mataji: Yes, planet Earth has but also the planet that governs it  [the Vishuddhi] is the Saturn. There is so much interest in Saturn. Saturn is here at the Vishuddhi. Earth is the Mooladhara. Mooladhara is in the triangular bone.

Question: Mother, would you say something about extra-terrestrials?

Shri Mataji: That’s all under our control. Sahaja yogis can control anything if they want to. That’s at a higher level when you rise from here to cosmic awareness. But you are not interested because it is better to control human beings. How to control human beings is the big problem. They cannot control themselves, leave alone I controlling them. You give them power, they go amok, you give them freedom, they go amok, you give them money, they go amok. What to do? They can’t bear anything. You have so much of plenty here but Indians are much wiser people. 60% of people, I can’t believe it, are homosexual in San Francisco. Now they feel hurt if I tell them that this is unnatural. You will become natural, you will enjoy a natural life. There is nothing to be angry for that. Everything God has given you. Count your blessings. You are specially blessed people for your good deeds in last lives. But this life you have achieved I don’t know what sort of awareness. But people just don’t want to see anything. Like the music that appeals to your Spirit must be sung, must be appreciated. Instead of that it is horrible “halalalalalalalalala” that goes on and then how people don’t go mad with it and all psychedelic things you work out on people. It’s really maddening. It will madden even a dog.

Dr. Worlikar: Mother, it can be scientifically proved that pop music is anti-rhythmic. It is unnatural.

Shri Mataji: I know Mozart was a realized soul, no doubt, and there were so many like that . You can even have jazz music. Jazz has got so much creativity in it. But you must base it on something that is related to your being inside. Like Indian music you can call it something like jazz in the sense that it’s so spontaneous, but you have to first build it up into melody, you have to go to a guru to understand what a melody is and you have to keep to that boundaries of melody. Like a plane, it has to ascend. Then it cannot go hither and thither through all the sights. It has to be bound. In the same way, a melody has to move in a particular manner and has to go up and down. But you have all the power to create all the permutations and combinations and the way to build up the whole image, of the beautiful melody. You can just make the whole palace out of it. But if you go just amok here and there. Supposing if you don’t use a plumb line and build this building, what will happen? You won’t see third day standing here. It’s like that, you cannot go amok with it. Jazz music is good but you must have the connection with the basics. In India we were more the sort of meditative people, believed in meditation and taking a sort of guidance from the meditative rishis and munis. Music has the same principle, then even art, then even drama, everything. In a drama, how to create a particular mood? What is to be used? What sentences are to be used? What language? But sometimes I find that when it is without the understanding of the divine science of creating the mood, what happens is that when you are trying to create a mood of, say, a great college, you just start laughing of it, it creates a joke out of it if you don’t know the basics of that. So all the roots of everything must be found out, the essence must be found out, you can’t just go amok.

There was a very big attack on the Western life, also. Like (Richard) Wagner, (composer). He’s a great person who has attacked your music. It’s a demonic attack because he took you off the roots. Then we can say these Bauhaus who attacked your architecture. They have attacked also because all the sense of beauty was lost with that and the whole thing has come out of the roots. And now the people have started building the houses which are functional. You cannot become a machine. You must have the roots nourishing you all the time. If you take out from the roots, then what is left? And that’s what was wrong on these people, this Bauhaus. People in America go mad because they’re all Bauhaus houses you feel like you are living in a pigeon hole.

Question: Could you comment on destiny versus human choice.

Shri Mataji: Now that’s quite a big lecture.

Dr. Warren: Would you like to leave it for another time?

Shri Mataji: No, no, I will just tell in one sentence. We have human choice, to go to hell or go to heaven. If you want to go to hell, you are there. Now the destiny is how you chose our own destiny. Sometimes you choose your parents, you choose your country, and sometimes you are placed into it. But whatever may be your destiny, whatever may be your circumstances, you all can go to heaven. That’s the thing, it’s promised, it’s there. It makes no difference whatever type of community, caste, background you’ve come, you all can go to heaven, you can enter into the kingdom of God. It makes no difference whatsoever. So these destinies are left behind, you all can achieve the sunshine, that’s the point. Choice is whether you want the sunshine or not, that’s your choice. So the destiny is not to be decided on that level. It’s only up to the level where you are absolutely very much tied down to things. But the ascent is possible to everybody. Whether you are a DC10 or you are a jumbo jet, all of you can fly in the air.

Question: What is meant in the bible where it says, “In my father’s house there are many mansions.”

Shri Mataji: There are many mansions because these are all the mansions. There are seven centers in the head here, all of them, the seats are there. And in His house there are many mansions. Supposing you are an artist, you are a musician, you can enter into the mansion of music where you enjoy the essence of those things. Wherever you want you can move on. Many mansions, it’s the description of the greatness, the varieties of His beauty and His splendor.

Question: Mother, my question goes back to the idea of sorting and judgment. Yogi said earlier you are each a cell of God. Would She destroy one of Her own cells or would God destroy a cell?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, not the cell, but what happens, like nails that grow out, they are to be removed out of the body. Excretion has to take place in the body. That’s part of the body’s function.

Question: My question is about the spiritual essence of ourselves, is that judgeable?

Shri Mataji: The Spirit is not an innate thing within us like that as you think it, like in a candle, the light is not innate. It can be a lamp or it could be an enlightened lamp. So when it just becomes a lamp and a useless lamp which cannot be enlightened, we throw away. It’s common sense. In your house if you have a lamp which cannot work out,the light, you don’t want to keep it. You just sell it off or throw it away.

Question: Yes, but can you think of a soul in that way, can you think of a human essence as something that can be useless or disposed of.

Shri Mataji: It is reduced back to its useless thing, like matter. It can be even worse. I don’t want to tell that. It’s terrible. It’s very hard. You become plastic. Useless it is.

Question: When I meditate or afterwards I feel a small image of you and sometimes also feel the presence of Christ and when I hear you talking about Jesus I sense there is an intimacy and an immediacy.

Shri Mataji: Very much.

Question: And could you help clear up what exactly Christ’s gift was to human beings?

Shri Mataji: Oh, greatest of all. That one also another lecture but all right. I’ll cover this subject because it’s very sweet of her to ask. If you go through one of my lectures about Christ, you will know what He has done. It’s very good and only thing I will tell you that all these incarnations came on different centers. They are milestones of our evolution. And when Christ came in, the ego and superego had developed so much at this point, when the Romans were there. The whole thing like two balloons absolutely attached to each other like that right there. And we, uh, and it had to be done in such a way that somebody had to cross this, to be there, and only a person of Christ’s caliber could do that because He was made of Chaitanya itself, He was just first vibrations. He had no body, He had no Earth element to that extent. He was just Chaitanya. He was Omkara Himself. He incarnated on this Earth because only He could get into that position, pass through that to show the resurrection. Resurrection was the message. Only He could do it. He came specially for this. You have to listen to my lectures about Christ’s life, what happened to Him and all that. But I would suggest one thing. Today you are facing me. Christ has helped us a lot and He has created this Agnya Chakra for us which is a very big thing. Without that, that’s the gate, to enter in. But now you have to be here (Sahastrar), not there [Agnya]. So that’s what it is. So, you should try to understand your relationship in Sahaja Yoga with Christ, how important it is and how He works within yourself. But you have to know that you are reborn now, with your Spirit. So, now you have to do the work of the light. Like Christ Himself has said that an enlightened light is not kept under a table. So that’s what it is, your job now is reflecting that light that is within you.

Question: Since I’ve been in the room I’ve felt a tremendous tightness in my throat. It’s happened several times before and I can’t understand it. I feel like crying.

Shri Mataji: Have you been smoking before?

Question: [UNCLEAR: no]

Shri Mataji: The left side, in your case, has been hurt. Emotionally, you’re not all right. It’s emotional dirt. You need emotional expression or emotionally you are not substantiated, I can say you are not being nourished emotionally. That’s why the lacking is there and that’s what you need and what you have to do is to put your left side to the right side – balance – and then you’ll feel better. In any case I’ll see your Vishuddhi Chakra. You have to have faith in yourself, that you are part and parcel of the whole. That’s what Vishuddhi Chakra does.

Now, how many questions you have got? That’s typically TM, though.

Question: Shall I do the same for myself?

Shri Mataji: No, we’ll tell you the mantra that you have to say to neutralize it. There’s a very big mantra needed and he will make you a master. And then you will have to help all the TMs.

Question: The thing I wasn’t understanding when you speak of compassion and yet somehow when you talk of Mahesh or Guru Maharaji or Bhagwan, I don’t feel that. What I’m getting when I look at all the pictures, when people who put themselves forward in that way they also serve a function in the sorting out process.

Shri Mataji: That’s the thing is you people are not sensitive to divinity. That’s what I feel is many of you are not. That’s why you are deceived also. If you were sensitive, if you had those innocent eyes you would have seen. Indians are very seldom taken in by these people. Secondly I saw this in Rome. The Italians have this sensitivity. In Europe, they and Austrians have that sensitivity very much developed. They can see from the photograph immediately and they can make out. But you don’t have. What to do? Your eyes are not all right, I should say that way, and you don’t depend on them until you have cleared them out completely.

Dr. Warren: He also questioned compassion towards them. Should we not have compassion?

Shri Mataji: Compassion is as I told you, no use having compassion for Hitler. Makes no meaning for him. You cannot have compassion for them. Leave it to God to decide for them. That’s what it is. You must first develop your own self in such a way that you become a source of compassion and first try to understand simpler people. Never go for a complicated thing. Like learning a new language, first we learn simpler words and then we go to difficult words. In the same way don’t try to go to difficult people. Not only difficult, some of them are sinister, not only sinister, they are devils and some of them will really create monsters out of you. You won’t know, they are very clever people. In India, people are not only frightened of them but of their disciples also. For example you are talking of Rajneesh. This fellow was in Pune and people who lived in Pune were opposed. One day a man came to somebody’s house and this man was a disciple of Rajneesh. They did not know he was disciple because he wasn’t wearing the dress. While eating he told them that he was a disciple of Rajneesh and what they did was to tell him that, “Sorry, but we can’t keep you here and you better go to some hotel.” Then they washed everything in the house. All the utensils they gave away to others and said, “We can’t use these anymore.” It’s a question of auspiciousness and you have no sense of auspiciousness. You are not sensitive to that. Your materialistic attitude has made you like that. You can’t feel it.

Question: The thing I’m talking about is in the sense of putting other teachers down.

Shri Mataji: No, they are not teachers. I’m saying there are two types. There are real teachers and there are unreal teachers. I’m not putting them down. I’m trying to save you, that’s all. If that is their put down, what should I do? I’m not concerned with them, I’m concerned about you and if you don’t like it, you can go to them. But don’t come back to me because it’s a headache to me. I am not interested. You are free to go there. Like Roy, he brought these people. I didn’t want them. I knew that they will collapse but he wouldn’t listen so he brought them, now they collapsed. Before my photograph he tried it quite a lot. He used to get people before my photograph and they should shake like this and even the mad people would shake the same way. What I’m saying is that whatever is so obvious to us is not obvious to you. Like an enlightened person, you’d better get your light into your eyes just to see where you are going. What have they given you? Nothing.

Question: When you say that it’s wasted to give compassion towards someone like Hitler, I feel that whenever you give compassion, love is the same thing out to anybody to whoever it is, you are giving beautiful things, they use those even if that person doesn’t…

Shri Mataji: There is a saying in the Bible, “Don’t throw pearls before something.”

Seekers: Swine.

Shri Mataji: Now that should finish it, because you like Christ to say something, not me to say something. So I don’t want to do that anymore.

Dr. Warren: They don’t know which the swine is.

Shri Mataji: That is the problem. If you like somebody, go ahead with it. I need to be very frank. I’ll be very happy with very few people. If you don’t want to come here, you’d better go there. Have it. I just don’t say. It’s a headache for me. You ask him, you don’t know how difficult it was to save this gentleman. You think you are obliging me? Nothing, it’s a horrible thing for me to see somebody coming from these horrible people. It’s so difficult to salvage them. They are like people eaten up by crocodiles. How to put them right? Just tell me. A person like me, I’ve no interest actually sometimes.

We had prohibited people coming from all these people for years together. Till about 1978, we didn’t want to talk to people who came from other people. After ‘78 I mastered this, then 1979 I mastered another one. Everybody mastered it. Then we did it. It was such a headache. Not only they got sick, ask them, they will tell you everything about it. We also had somebody from Bhagwan Rajneesh who has mastered it now, but they would not allow him to enter into the ashram and he came and he said, “Now, Mother, save me. I’ve thrown away clothes, I’ve thrown away these mallas, everything.”

I said, “What to do? These people are having a problem.”

Then I called him in my house and he stayed with me and my husband said, “What sort of an inauspicious man has come? Since he has come we are breaking everything in the house.”

I said, “Where to send this fellow now?” And then he got all right and now he is a big master of Sahaja Yoga. Robert is his name. But if somebody is insisting on their guru, let them go. Just have nothing to do with them. Let them have it. Better! That’s all the Sahaja Yogis should do, I request you. Not to bother your heads about this nonsensical thing of compassion today, horrible destroyers and the devils of the world, all anti-God devils.

Question: If you are a person who has not experienced self realization, how do you know if you are the type of person who will give you a headache or not?

Shri Mataji: That’s the problem. But for that I came to your country the first time. I was the first to come and I announced about that and took their names and told who is this Rajneesh and who is this Mahesh Yogi and all these people. I told their names, which devils they are and what they have been doing, what they will do to you, in all details. Openly for a woman to speak like that with such courage! Nobody liked it. Even now they don’t like it. But Rajneesh, you’d be surprised, there have been thousands going to him and that’s a fashion. The other day somebody told me that there’s a very miserable creature going. I said, “Who is that?” and it was Rajneesh’s disciple going “Ahhhhhhhhhh” like that, a young fellow on a wheelchair. I said, “Let him go on off. Let him have it.” What to do? You can’t do anything about such people. I have no time for that. I have time for my own people who are sensible. I don’t want to waste my energy on them. Why should I? I told them in every way possible. Still they wanted to go to them. Now what can you do? You can take the horse to the water, you can pour the water in them, but he has to gulp it down. If he doesn’t want to gulp it down, how far can you go with it? I have done whatever is possible.

Question: If a person has not experienced self realization, is it their lack of being open to it?

Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. They have no sense of judgment and there is also this prada there, they repeat their previous life mistakes.  But it is open to everyone openly, everyone can come to Sahaja Yoga. You know you don’t have to pay anything. Every caste, creed, race. If you are really seeking, just keep your brains intact and see for yourself. Logically reach the right conclusion and have it. You have to have that prescience. This must be prada they have, they call it ‘previous lives nonsense’. I don’t know what they are up to. I don’t know how they can be enamored. These are all saints, these are the people of God. How can they go there?  I just can’t understand. There is a picture about Rajneesh. If you see that you won’t eat your food for 8 days. It has now been bought by Rajneesh and it cannot be shown in the public but in the private you can see, it’s horrible. The hell personified. One gentleman went there and took a secret thing. He has become a very rich man because lots of money was given to him. Now he doesn’t do anything. It’s like that. It has to be open sunshine.

Question: Is self realization the same for everyone?

Shri Mataji: Yes, in a way it is same. But the ascent can be slow, can be fast. It depends on the individual.

Question: Mother, do you call to us or do we call up to you?

Shri Mataji: You called me first and then I came and you never recognized me. That’s the problem. You all have been calling me for ages. This was all done, arranged for ages. But they could not recognize me.

Question: You spoke about giving realization by just touching somebody. It makes him feel like coming close to you and being touched.

Shri Mataji: It is just flowing through your hand, just the all power is flowing through your hand. You may be caught up because you achieve your perfection much later. It may be the fifth-hand car but it does the job. It doesn’t give your catch to another person. While giving realization you are in the purest form. But sometimes then you come on mental level and start talking to another person, then he might catch. But normally I’ve not seen one person while giving realization pass on the catch to another. You need not even touch the person. Just behind them you can move the hands and give realization. It’s that great. I’m myself surprised of that, its activity, how it works, automatically. Second minute you can start it. You get your realization, start it. But it’s better that you know all about it because you do not know how to protect. There’s a little protection is needed because you come on your mental level very fast. Like you’re going through a crowd and you are sitting on a hilltop. Still you feel you’re in a crowd and you are driving the car so that upsets you till that mood is there. Once you are out of it fully there’s no problem, never catch.

Question: In some of the speech you talked about primordial masters, they’re all male. They incarnated in a male body and I was wondering if there was a natural lineage or why has that been over time, in history, like there has been Abraham, Moses, Lao Tse, etc.

Shri Mataji: First we had to build up the fatherhood, out of fear because without fear human beings won’t listen. Imagine at the time of Moses, the Ten Commandments that he brought had to be chained, the people were so horrid. He had to make them very very strict at that time because, you can see from the Books of Essenes, you will get the full idea as to how terrible the people were. Then we had to talk of Christ because he had to cross the Agnya. He had to cross it because that was the problem. At that time the ego was too much. Imagine at the time of Romans how they were horrid. So He had to do that. Today we have reached at a point fagged out absolutely, fed up with our egos, superegos, Now only the mother can help you. It has to be at different various levels of your awareness one had to work out. Now is the time of mother to nourish you, mother to give you that love because now you won’t be spoiled any more. That you will understand.

Question: Mataji, in this incarnation, what was the nature of your enlightenment. Who was your guru and did you instantly recognize you were the mother or was that later on?

Shri Mataji: I was. I am the mother of all the gurus. Now, who will be my guru? Even you can be my guru, in a way. I’ll tell you how because I don’t understand human beings so well, the way they go into their nonsense. Like homosexual, I didn’t know this was their doing homosexual nonsense. So somebody who told me about homosexuals is a guru in a sense because he knows more than me. I don’t know many things, I don’t know how to drive, I don’t know how to operate the bank, I don’t understand money, I’m hopeless. So, you can be guru for me, I’m so bad you don’t know. When you see me you’ll be surprised. I’m an ignorant person. I don’t even know sometimes how to open your plastic bags I’m so bad. I must say I’m no good for this modern life. I’m an antique woman. So anybody could be my guru, you all could be my gurus. So you could say.: [Hindi] “Even a child says something good you must listen.” So I have to listen to you and I learn a lot. You don’t know how much you people have taught me. I’m good at Kundalini awakening but so bad at so many things you can’t imagine. My husband is so worried. He telephones to me every third, fourth day to find out if I was still in one part. But I knew all about myself from my very childhood. I knew what I was, for what I have come, I knew my responsibility. I was a very responsible person from my very childhood. My father used to tell everyone that ,”Now the goddess has been born in my family.” He used to respect me just like a goddess. But he was my first guru because he told me all about human beings, what they were up to, but he didn’t know about this homosexuality. He did not know this is a new advancement. But he is the one who told me about Martin Luther, about Christian problems, about Hindu problems and Muslim problems, everything. He talked to me about so many things. He was an enlightened man and he knew for what purpose I had come. He is the one who told me a lot, especially about human beings, because I couldn’t understand then why did they behave like this. I just couldn’t understand. So you could be my guru on many points about Americans. So I don’t need any lineage because I’m the mother. Even all the gurus, these great gurus in India, they all treat me like a mother.

Question: How was it that your Kundalini rose spontaneously and at what age?

Shri Mataji: My Kundalini was just there, but the breaking of the Sahastrara I did it on the fifth of May [1970] and actually I wanted to do it a little later. I thought it was rather early but I wanted to see what this Rajneesh was up to and I told my husband I wanted to go and see this man there. So he organized with some friends he had there and they arrange my stay there. I didn’t stay with all of them and I went to the ocean and started seeing what the trend was. I saw this fellow, what he was up to. Then I hurried it. I said, “Better open the Sahastrara. At last.”