Ruth’s appartment

Rome (Italy)

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English Transcript Version Date: 2015-1006

 Conversation in Ruth’s appartment, Rome, Italy, April the 26th, 1984

Shri Mataji: [to be convinced that] what we have to expect, what should happen to you, what Christ has said. Not what the churches are talking. What Christ has said, if you are a Catholic. Catholic means, I don’t know what you know of Catholic. What does it mean?

New person: No, I was brought up as a Catholic.

Shri Mataji: No, no, what I am saying, what is a Catholic, the word means?

New person: What is a Catholic? Oh, the words itself, I don’t know.

Shri Mataji: In our, in Sanskrit language, is called Samadhi, means something eternal. The ancient and eternal is Samadhi. So that is what is Catholic. And what do we expect, is what Christ has said, is/means Samadhi. So we should really sort it out first of all in our minds. It’s very much necessary. We should sort out what Christ has told, what are you to expect, what is the proof.

New person: That’s my problem, because I’m already [having a OR agno], I am agnostic, [to the point of I don’t OR so I’m going to find and] verify, perhaps I believe in Christ as a man.

Shri Mataji: Yes. Yes. All right. No, no but you see…

New person: I don’t know if I believe in God.

Shri Mataji: All right. All right. As a man also if you believe what has He told? What has He told? You see if you believe Him as a man or anything He didn’t tell lies, [He didn’t OR did He]?

New person: From what He is saying, no.

Shri Mataji: All right. Then it’s all right. [Then if the truth He’s said] then what did He say? What are you to expect?

New person: Just to treat people the way you want to be treated, basically.

Shri Mataji: Ah?

New person: To treat people the way you want to be treated yourself, basically.

Shri Mataji: That’s true, but you see then, how can you treat people because you don’t know yourself. First you should know yourself.

New person: Hmm. Also true.

Shri Mataji: Isn’t it? Unless and until you will know yourself, how will you treat [people]? You see, they are all laughing because they have gone through the same circle, did you see? And they have been through your circle only, that way. You see, it moves like that.

New person: That’s not humanely, that’s what I basically mean. It’s humane, not human, just humane.

Shri Mataji: To be humane. But how will you be humane? Sometimes, you know this idea of helping others itself comes from a very big ego in you. Who are you to help him? Who is the other?

New person: Makes you feel good.

Shri Mataji: Isn’t it? I mean, supposing I say I’m trying to help you, and if you are part and parcel of Me, I jolly [well OR will] have to do it. If you are my finger I have to help you in any way. If I can feel you within Myself I have to help Myself do that. So who is the other? So Christ never taught this. The way people understand Him is absolutely wrong. I just don’t understand, like looking after the poor, you see. It’s a nonsensical act. That was not [even OR what] He has taught to look after the poor nor anything.

Of course, the poor will be helped. That’s a different point altogether. But look after your Spirit. For Christ, you see, poverty and riches has no meaning. It has no meaning to Me either. To Me if you make Me sleep on the ground I can sleep. I can live in the palaces. I can live anywhere, in the same fashion, in the same Hindi way as I do. So it doesn’t matter to a person who is spiritual whether he’s rich, poor or anything; doesn’t go into the head of the person, you see. It doesn’t go. The comfort doesn’t matter. Such a person is absolutely Spartan, by any means, absolutely Spartan. He doesn’t ask for any comfort, any this thing. I mean, he can live in any condition [he OR you] like. You can, you know, they know I’ve lived in villages, travelled in villages where they have no traces of comfort. And I [could OR can] manage [everything]. I can in live in any comfortable house; I can live there. So this was not His idea to help the poor. I asked people why did they get this idea, to help the poor. You see, [unclear] on the contrary, to help the poor, best thing is to yourself reach your Spirit. Then you can help so many people automatically without spending any money, without any material thing that really can’t help. And that is what is …

New person: By knowing your Self.

Shri Mataji: By being your Self. The first thing is [to, you] know your Self. And just now you said that “as far as myself is concerned”. Now do you [yourself realize] that your connection with the Self is not done? So whatever you say, whatever you say is your mental self, that’s all. All right? And the mental self is nothing but what? [I mean pampering it is because of ego OR Perceive a thought of it]. Whatever you do mentally is nothing, is nothing. It’s not the reality.

New person: Mental, [yes perfectly OR is not the reality].

Shri Mataji: So whatever is the reality is your Self which you should know. So the first step is that, what I say is that you should know yourself, first step. Unless and until you have got the light of the Self, whatever I talk is of a mental thing. You say something, I say something, it goes on, mounting up.

New person: It sounds only one has to know one Self [GW: oneself?].

Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s the point. Now, so you have come to My point and I am at your point also that you have to know yourself. Now, how do we know ourselves? Let’s go to that. How do we know ourselves? By thinking about it we cannot. By reading about it we cannot.

New person: I feel crazy without books.

Shri Mataji: Now what is the possibility, what must happen, what is knowing Self means, is that in our consciousness, in our conscious mind we should know ourselves. That is our Spirit. In our conscious mind. Now whatever we have achieved in evolution so far, say for example, you understand the nature of the flower, you understand the whole thing you see, as an arrangement, a pattern of all these things, music you understand, melody of it and all that. That’s because you are a human being, because you have evolved as a human being. Supposing you make this music concert supposing [to a rock]. What could [it mean OR be the message]?

New person: I don’t know.

Shri Mataji: So evolution has brought you to this state when you are evolved, up to this point where you have an awareness which you know through your central nervous system. Come to the [unclear] through your central nervous system [in you OR you know]. Now what should happen to you in evolution? Something should happen to your central nervous system. All right? In your Self, in your Self-realization, something should happen that you should have a new dimension [through/to] your awareness, which is just a human awareness at this point. There should be a breakthrough. And in that what should happen? You see, you visited the person of this family. He has said very clearly that you should become collectively conscious, though he does not know how he became. He does not know the [truth] because he just became. It is a spontaneous thing. The whole thing is a living process, just like a flower becoming a fruit. Like you becoming… an egg becoming a bird, the second birth is.

As Christ has said, everybody has said [that] you have to have your second birth, or resurrection. All right? Now what is that? Where should we see it? Where should it [express/be expressed]? In our central nervous system, because in all evolutionary processes, is the central nervous system that really developed and expressed and manifest. And that came into our attention, all right? So scientifically when you move forward, then something should happen to your central nervous system. That means you must have a new dimension of feeling in your central nervous system.

New person: Pure [attention was / things were] never felt before or discussed.

Shri Mataji: Your pardon?

New person: Pure [attention was / things were] never felt before or discussed.

Shri Mataji: Never felt before, [na OR now}… now this feeling should not be emotional. You see, some people feel so emotional about some scene; some people do not feel so emotional. You see, it’s a, it’s also imaginary thing because for some people is so emotional; for some people it is not so emotional. Like, you see, it’s emotional if also not necessarily is reality, not necessarily. You see, if your, somebody’s background is very sadistic he may enjoy a sadistic thing. Somebody who is another [side/style] he might enjoy that. So we, what you have to feel is exactly that everybody has to feel. All right? Supposing you see this color as white. Image is one for all of us, all our eyes: it is [one/white]. If you see this light is green, [and OR then] everybody sees this light is green, with our eye, all right? So in the same way, all of you must see the same thing, the same thing, and whatever you feel at that level of awareness and that whatever you feel should be a collective feeling, feeling more collectivity. That must be [met OR united]. Absolutely scientifically you reach that point.

New person: By/like communication.

Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon?

New person: Is it [by/like] communication?

Shri Mataji: Like communication [it works]. All right? But it’s not communication like you see, some people say, “Oh, I communicated with a person.” When you go to then another, ask person, he’ll say, “I hated that person.” So isn’t it? So there is no reality of feeling, you see. A girl feels, “Oh, I’m in love with a boy, and the boy is this and he loves me,” and when you go and ask once say, “Take me away from him.” It’s very common. So the communication that is between all of us has to be absolutely real, should be felt on the central nervous system in our feeling, [it is like that] all right? Scientifically, this should happen to us.

Now, I’ll tell you something. Supposing that there is a way. There is something in you that works it out. It is your own. Within you is this power Kundalini which rises and makes you that. Supposing I tell you. Now the thing is, if I tell you that, that this happens, this will take place, what is there to doubt? [And/Like] if it happens, very good.

New person: Exactly!

Shri Mataji: If it doesn’t happen, it is not happening in any case. I mean, as it is you haven’t got it. So if it is going to happen, why not have it?

New person: Right. Yes.

Shri Mataji: All right? That’s the point. That’s it. So then what is the use of doubt?

New person: That’s…

Shri Mataji: Because it is only, only there are only two possibilities: one is that you are realized; or you are not realized. There is no third possibility.

New person: Yes, but that…

Shri Mataji: Now are you doubting whether you want the realization or not?

New person: No.

Shri Mataji: No. Then it’s all right. [When you are with Me] then what are you doubting about?

New person: I’m searching.

Shri Mataji: Aaa?

New person: I’m searching. Obviously, or subconsciously.

Shri Mataji: You are searching. But it’s not your hobby. It’s not your hobby? You mean it.

New person: Pardon?

Shri Mataji: You see, searching…

New Person: I wouldn’t be here otherwise.

Shri Mataji: You, you see, that’s it. So you mean it. But you know there are some people who have a hobby also as such. Even if they find, still they are running like crazy. And run [there]. And they come back to Me after three years. They are mad people, I think. I’ve seen.

New person: You know it’s not…it’s not really worth finding something and then going away and finding it later on.

Shri Mataji: You see, because if you have found something you have to weigh it and see for yourself if it is [so OR sure] or not, isn’t it? But if you just see it, now your habit is, supposing somebody has a habit, all right, this one, is good, like guru shopping as they call it, you see. They go and see, come, come, no good, no good. Still they are… Gregoire was that. Can you believe it? Gregoire was like that. He told Me, “Mother, I’ve developed a habit of seeking. What am I to do?” Human mind is such that it develops every sort of habits. This habitual, it gets habitual. They take to everything, you see. People wanted to have a breakthrough from all the nonsense that was going on and all kinds of things people were putting on. So they said, “All right, anti-culture.” Now anti-culture is the habit.

New person: I don’t know.

Shri Mataji: So from one habit to another habit we move but to get realized and to station down you have to have a steady sitting down and settling down, [seeing/see] it because it has its own protocol. This is the thing. If you are realized now, see all of them were telling Me where were you catching, what was your problem, what chakras you were catching because you can feel it on your fingers. These are the seven centers of the sympathetic nervous system and they all knew what you were catching, what was happening.

New person: And they’ll all say the same thing.

Shri Mataji: Yes, same thing. It’s just same. There’s no difference at all. Even if you get a little child he’ll put the finger this way. A little baby will show that. Even little, little children, you will be surprised [give OR with] realization. Two-year-old children, three-year-old children, if they are realized children. There are many born realized. For we’ll be sitting in My program they are running about, you see, taking care, [doing] that. They are very busy, all the time. And they do the job. They do the job for me. And I tell them that, “Bring children. All the children should be here. They are the greatest Sahaja yogis I have.” You see, they come and tell Me like that, it’s catching on the right Vishuddhi and show Me this one, you see. It’s very interesting it was, the way they manage. Olympia is so small ? she’s hardly two and she can’t speak much, you see ? and she saw somebody, she said: “Allah hu. Allah hu Akbar.” She said, “Allah hu.” And she does everything, like this, like this….Such a little kid, two years, such a sweet thing, you know. So interesting to see how beautiful these children work it out. I mean, this is what it is and you’ve seen it and you know that, that because children….

New person: Children haven’t been ruined.

Shri Mataji: I beg your pardon?

New person: Children haven’t been ruined.

Shri Mataji: No way. The children are the ones who are realized children, you see, are tremendous, tremendous. You don’t know how tremendous they are. The way they fight it out, the way they work it out is tremendous. I’ve seen my own grandchildren like that. All four of them are realized, great realized children they are, and the way they fight it out is surprising, really, the way they fight it out. Then they are not afraid of anything. Not afraid. They are just like, you see, little great angels. They are such a help to Me. It’s only the grown-ups, you see, they have developed big horns and have entangled themselves, you see. Children are very sweet. And the way they manage, you see, in this weary world.

New person: Because children are still innocent.

Shri Mataji: Innocent, and apart from that they are born realised. They are ancient children. They are ancient. They’re saviors. You see, this is the time of Resurrection; this is the time about your Last Judgment. And all the great souls are to be born. This is the time. It has come now. There’s no time to be lost, no time to be lost. It has to happen. That’s why there are so many seekers. You just think how many seekers there are today.

New person: Really.

Shri Mataji: At the time of Christ, twelve? Now where are they lost? Where are they gone? What are they doing? They don’t come to prove. They are very easily influenced by people who are false. Always. It is surprising. How they are influenced by them? These [Silvers] went to work there in Sweden. She, she came and stayed with Me in My house. And everyday she started doing morning till evening [prayers]. And My daughters will work and they said, “What is this girl you have called? We have come all the way from India and this girl is taking all Your time and doing nothing but [unclear].” I said, “No, no, she will come down. You’ll see her.” Then I, My daughters, you know, one of the daughters, she asked her, “Did you ask so many questions to your previous guru?” She said, “No, we could not because he was a lama.” He sent word that, “I won’t come there till you make a house of [coral], marble flooring.” Poor these Swedish people starved themselves because, you see, here the young people don’t have much fun. Like in India we give to our children lot of fun. So the care here the people don’t have. So they starved themselves, made that floor of marble for this lama to come to.

And this lama used to make this lady, the one who was arguing to Me, one thousand time just bow to him for one year. [She/He] would never talk to him. He was sitting there and she was bowing him one thousand times. I said, “Why did you accept?” “Because everybody was doing.” But I said, “Why was everybody doing?” She [couldn’t answer].

So that’s why the progress of Sahaja Yoga is very slow. It has to be speed up. It has to go very [fast/quick]. But say, country like India, first class, amazing, thousands after, thousands just like that. But sometimes, you know, they say I’m wasting My time in India. For one person I’ve spend nearly three hours, five hours, till they have their Realization, but in India in ten minutes you can make thousands. Why are [you/we] here? You are also seekers of ancient times. You, you may not know your values but I know. That’s why [I give you time].

It is I who should doubt; again I say that. Though it’s a different thing; it’s just the other way round. It is not going to… So put your mind at rest a little then it will work out. Because the mind is a, you see, the mind is a donkey. That’s why Christ [stood on OR told us] a donkey, you see. Mind is a donkey. If you go behind it, it will kick but if you go in front of it, it will put its head down, [you can hold it upon] ears and try to tame it, this and that. It’s a donkey which knows, you see. If it knows you want to go somewhere [then it will take it’s time OR they’ll leave the place back]. So you just say, “I’m a seeker and I had enough of it. Now I must have my realization.” That’s what it is, as simple as that, very simple. It’s simple thing to understand, but if it doesn’t happen it’s not My fault. It’s not My fault. It’s your mind. This is all your [working, work to do].

New person: That’s the problem I feel [nearly being OR very] guilty.

Shri Mataji: You see, [we are back to that Vishuddhi]. You see you [have OR are] relaxed very much but you have a very bad Vishuddhi. You must know, very bad Vishuddhi you have. I don’t know, perhaps you have been drinking, smoking and also some other problems, very bad Vishuddhi. [If should OR You have to] come to [Me again] means [I] to promise you I have to have patience and you have to have patience also. That’s the position. Whatever is the position I have to work [it]. See? And this has to be cleared up. For this I have to work, not you. So who has to have patience: Me or you?

New person: [I. But] I’m the Taurus.

Shri Mataji: That means?

New person: I’m the Taurus.

Shri Mataji: Oh, that is, that’s what it is?

Another Sahaja Yogini: Taurus.

Shri Mataji: One of the Taurus’s problem I recall is [marrying a wrong]. She’s [unclear].

Another Sahaja Yogini: Oh, really?

Shri Mataji: Pardon? She got married [and she was] absolutely married person. She was so crazy after her first husband who had left her, divorced her, finished her, but still she was married, you see. We didn’t want to look at him. We went to Canada. He ran away. But when she got married now to this …

Sahaja Yogis: Andre.

Shri Mataji: [Still seems] that there is something problem. Or, for example, Jane.

Sahaja Yogini: This is so much problem.

Shri Mataji: All right. So let us be obstinate about finding it, all right? We can direct our promise that we can look after.

New person: [unclear]

Shri Mataji: Pardon? It’s a very loving method and very delicate method that God has created for you. Actually, by our own mentally exasperation we should say we really exhaust our energy and dry out all that [creativity that is inside]. Actually, a person who is simple-hearted, who doesn’t think too much, lives for the moment, enjoys everything, such a person is very suitable for Sahaja Yoga, very suitable. But you are also because you are a seeker and it is not seeker of today but of many, many, many ages, you see. So you have to find it. Whether you find it today or tomorrow you have to find it. So better have it today. Why postpone? I’ve been told you are a journalist so I said have it. Because…

New person: I’m a journalist of sorts.

Shri Mataji: Hmm.

New person: Not a hundred per cent but I am working for the radio.

Shri Mataji: No, journalists I’ve met, both experiences as a journalist, you see. But it’s a very sensitive area to which they deal, you see. And if they do not understand their responsibility they can be very dangerous to the cause. This is a very big costly cause. It’s not a simple cause, a few people here and there. It’s the whole world has to be saved, you see. The emancipation of the whole humanity is My work, you see. It’s not a simple work which can be just a trivial, a trivial thing or one can just make fun of or something like that, you see. And here I find a journalist, for example, came in Lausanne who was a very nice man and was a very intelligent and he saw to it and got his realization. He was just there. He was so good; he wrote a very nice thing about Me but he was till he was [gone OR going] on a holiday and we get a presenter, the editor made a big fun out of it, you see, and they wrote there’s an [old lady again who is coming.] and was corresponding and wrote few letters in all such places.

All that, you see, created a problem for Me in Lausanne because everybody said as if I mesmerize or some sort of a thing, you know. They couldn’t understand. You see, they are waiting for a happening, they are waiting for a savior, they want somebody to do it, but when you say you are there you just have such a making fun of the person. At least settle down and see for yourself. But there was another sensible lady who came down to London and she got her realization. She went to Geneva and she wrote a very sensible article [about what she felt really OR that she felt very great] what she felt. Actually I would say her realization took about three days. But it worked out. In Lausanne [all who came to Me], first class. This lady could feel it and she stayed all the three days to see Me. Can you imagine?

She got her realization and while realizing whatever I talked to her, she wrote such a column, [print out the report OR it down, she told everything]. And she published that article. And how many people got realization? You see, the same thing, just imagine in Lausanne is Sonia [and Linda] and Geneva now we have at least, we should say, about a hundred people who are very good, and while in Lausanne not a single person. You see, so it’s a very sensitive area, you see. This is a new type of crucifixion, I should say. So you could be Jews or you could be, you can say you could be [the] horrible Romans, if you want to be the disciples of the truth people. See, so the area is very sensitive, this. The journalist area is the worst of all, I think, because if they are not helpful they can be very dangerous, very dangerous. And there’s one Oxford award, she’s achieved, [Swarna].

Sahaja Yogini: [Swarna].

Shri Mataji: She wrote an article but you know her style is very … she thought program starts because she writes about. So she wrote like that. But she did say what she has to say about, but that doesn’t have the impact on people and this is the [thing why] somebody resents about it perhaps. And she is again wants to do it again, you see, but I said, “First you change your style. Then you come to Me, because now you have to do it not in the normal way as you do it but it’s a ?”. Of course, she did it in courageous nature but she did it in a very frivolous way. It didn’t have that impact. But say in Australia, tremendous. Australians are the best. How they solved it and how they did it, I told you a miracle happened and [that’s why they all believed]. But it’s a money-making thing; it’s a money-making thing. People can make money out of this. I don’t know when [the crooks are dying], you see. They say the dharma is in turmoil. It’s a money-making thing whatever is controversial, you see, critical…

New person: If somebody can turn something nice into something nasty they do so.

Shri Mataji: Yes, same thing, you see. They can convert it into anything, whatever they want to be [virtuous]. But this is a very important point and it should not be harmed. But if somebody harms it, it’s dangerous for that person also because it’s God’s work. And in God’s work ? and this is very important ? it’s the most vital to think about. It’s THE thing, is the epitome of creation. I mean, if you don’t take your, say, realization for example, you are, [outer/out then], finished; that’s all. As far as I am concerned it doesn’t matter. But if you spoil the chances of others then it does matter.

New person: No, no, what I think is…

Shri Mataji: It’s dog in the mangy [GW: manger?]point like, you see…

New person: I’m sorry.

Shri Mataji: It’s like a dog in the mangy {GW: manger?]you see, who won’t eat the grass as well as others doesn’t allow, to catch it in the [jaws] like that. That is a very dangerous thing, [they are cunning to Mataji].

New person: Mother, You’re the wise [woman/One].

Shri Mataji: Mmm.

New person: You’re the wise [woman/One].

Shri Mataji: No, I’m just telling you. If you tell Me that, I’ll say “No, that’s you see, a journalist. You have to be careful with the journalists, you see. They will [think now OR print out] many things nonsensical, you know, very nonsensical things they will say. Like I was staying in a place in Bombay in a nine-storied, you see, so they said, “She’s staying in a nine-storied house,” or something like that. I mean, it was a horrible flat, actually I was absolutely Spartan, nothing there, no furniture, nothing. But today you see what, what do they expect a person to be, I just don’t understand. It was [scary to a fright] since they are having none like that. Any expectations are like that, isn’t it? And they are also paid by all these fake gurus [whosoever they are].

New person: [They are serious black handlers]

Shri Mataji: No.

New person: Oh, really?

Shri Mataji: They all. All. You see, I know that’s a now on front Good Tara, Good [Patilia] you know something like that.

New person: It’s that fourteen year [old] boy?

Shri Mataji: No, no, this is another one, something unknown, sort of a nonsense have started now. The fourteen years is finished now.

New person: It’s all right. [He’s retired].

Shri Mataji: He is retired. Not only because this, [but] his disciples have got blood cancer. I’ve told you, it’s very dangerous. Like Hare Rama might get throat [cancer]. [I put them right, now finished.

Shri Mataji: Mmm.

Sahaja Yogini: Hare Krishna, [Mother].

Shri Mataji: Hare Krishna, ahaa. Very bad. They did, they come to Me to help. But I mean, it is curable, not so bad. But some of them are really bad. But whatever it is, see all these, how is taking advantage they must be [heaved], pampered, think no end of themselves, you see. They never [feel] will be finished off. But this I am telling you about new one. They are giving this time hundred and thirty thousands pounds, you see, openly for the publicity of this TARA. And “Times” is writing about it and then they are expecting Christ, you see, talk to deliberately and appear on the television.

New person: Concernedly.

Shri Mataji: Concernedly. Such a thing.

New person: It’s [figured].

Shri Mataji: They make a Disneyland out of France, I mean, they can make anything. It’s all show. You cannot be any show about God, isn’t it, and just put in Disneyland. You cannot just show it by [creative] advertising or anything. It’s reality and reality is what it is. It cannot be what they want it to be. So I am sure you’ll get your realization. That’s all My work and it will be [unclear]

New Person: [I’ll do it.]

Shri Mataji: All right? That should happen; that’s the main thing. You are seeking not in this life but in many lives. You better then cooperate. All right?

New Person: I’ll try.

Shri Mataji: Just cooperate, cooperate, cooperate. It will work out. You are, you are very relaxed. Your Kundalini had crashed but it fell down again. [It’s for your kruta. Still you haven’t [got]. So much [inaudible]. I’ll look after. I’m working on you, whether I’m talking to you or not, I’m working on you, all right? [unclear] You see, you are against Catholicism, isn’t it?

New person: On a certain extent, yes.

Shri Mataji: Yes. That’s, that’s correct. It’s a very correct attitude you have.

New person: I’m, I’m sure it is. I went to school with priest, somehow [everything OR he] was strict and everything was contradiction.

Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, that is true. It is contradicting. You can see. That’s a very correct attitude you have. I mean, I was just saying in this morning only. Imagine what have done out of all these big incarnations who have been on this earth. Like for Mohammed in Islam, nonsense they have created, [unclear] they have created. How are they going to recognize the reality going [wrong]? They have created, you see. It’s all money-making propositions.

New person: Oh, certainly, certainly.

Shri Mataji: It has nothing to do with God actually. How will they recognize Christ?

New person: You are right. I’m sure they’ll get rid of Him.

Shri Mataji: They have some fun in lots of ways and methods. Got really bad but if they could be saved they should be. This Mr. Pope [I’ve risen his [Kundalini] this one governing is doing now].

New person: Sorry?

Shri Mataji: When I went to Cracow, you see, I went, I went to their place because My husband it’s a VIP, you see, so they made a Mass for them. And this fellow was the cardinal, was the cardinal in this Cracow. I didn’t know all that but you see against this thing we should be [understanding] everything. He is very, is very impressed by Indian people, this one. And I raised his Kundalini. He felt that also, [and it fell down] like that. And I wrote a letter to Gregoire because Gregoire’s birthday is on the 8th of September. And I wrote to him a letter and I said I’d met just someone like this, a cardinal and I raised his Kundalini because Gregoire was sort of moved, sort of worried about all the Catholics going to hell, you see. “Oh, I said, [unclear] are these because… But you don’t worry but I don’t think it will stay here. It’s all fallen down and all that.” And the letter [will be there]. So when he was elected he said. I had forgotten all that. He said, “Mother is the one whom You gave realization.”

New person: That would/could have been of help to him.

Shri Mataji: Aaa?

New person: That would/could have been of help to him.

Shri Mataji: I don’t know. But sometimes you know, he, Gregoire says that, one day he was talking on the radio, on the television and Gregoire said, “Now please say something about the Holy Ghost. Say something about the Mother Earth.” And he has started talking about the Mother Earth and Gregoire raised his Kundalini and [unclear]. There were two-three Sahaja Yogis sitting. So it may work out but, you see, he’s so much bound. You see, he is not Spirit-oriented. He’s more power-oriented, everything else but the Spirit.

New person: He’s man. He’s man. He’s man elected by men.

Shri Mataji: Man elected by men and certified by men, not the Divine power, [he’s not divine]. And man-made things cannot be raised.

New person: No, the man destroys everything he touches.

Shri Mataji: Aaaa?

New person: Man destroys everything he touches.

Shri Mataji: See that…see that, [he does, he does]. But man is the most beautiful thing on earth. He can recognize Me. Whatever he touches, feel it, [creates] now, will vibrate, will grow. That’s what Sahaja yogis are doing, they do. And we experimented with so many things. A Sahaja yogi in India experimented with wheat, you see. And it comes out ten times more and he has got [ninety/nineteen] Star of India. And he’s made such a lot of wheat in India. See, now is the time when we become really a prophet, not a saint, I would say it’s hard to understand because we can give realization first. Time has come. It is great [news]. You must have read Blake.

New Person: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Blake has described all Sahaja Yoga in such details to comprehend. He said, “The God of men will be born in those days and they will have powers, they will become prophets, and they will have powers to make others prophets.” But he even described where I stayed for he said that the first we’re going to live is [Twyburn Brook] where I lived. Then he says that foundation will be made in London where we laid the foundation of our ashram.” Then he described the house that I now have, which will be decorated by the Sahaja Yogis. He’s describing the house near we [play on] such a ground and [unclear]. And it’s what My house is there now and these boys are painting it with gold, the ceiling. And the golden diggers will be doing in it. It’s such detailed, such details we got. And a sinuousness will vibrate this. Sinuousness are the nerves will vibrate that land.

It’s so beautifully he has done. I don’t know how he could see, like Markandeya. He’s a seer at that point. But in this [unclear] that has happened [unclear] unless you see his [saintly way]. I think, I’ve only seen one exhibition that was [unclear] much. And they were just looking, “Oh, how nude this woman is. How nude is that.” I said, “Look at these.” We never understood [unclear]. So sad. Blake did talk of Jerusalem long back. In England, nobody can believe it.

New person: [Is it he speaks of ancient times?]

Shri Mataji: Is it, it is going to be Jerusalem.

Sahaja Yogini: Yes, he knows it.

New person: And [Satan] is the Church of England.

Shri Mataji: They think like that.

New person: And then [thus he changed] international probably.

Shri Mataji: Yes, but what about this Bishop of Canterbury? He’s very fond of all the fake gurus. Actually, he felt about the people who [are most cunning]. Now can you imagine this? Bishop of Canterbury. He’s so stupid. But still I’ve told these people to write to Me, same problems, [the same persons]. You are an English or American descendant?

New person: I’m half-Austrian, half-Irish, born and brought up in England.

Shri Mataji: This time I’m going to Ireland.

New person: Really? I’ve never been there.

Shri Mataji: Really?

New person: Never. My mother is from Ireland.

Shri Mataji: She’s from Ireland. Yes.

New person: Yes. In the south.

Shri Mataji: South, south of it, is it, we go to south Ireland. We have some[one deep], very sweet girl from Ireland is there. And is so anxious she’s said/told, “You must come to Ireland. You must come to Ireland. “ But north Ireland I was told that these Mahesha yogi disciples are three percent, are three percent population of north Ireland is Mahesh yogis. Israeli there are, how much? Five percent or something of Israelis are disciples of Mahesh yogi. No wonder they have became so mad. Very destructive.

Sahaja Yogini: Mother, I have a question concerning the group. Mother, what would you do [You do good] and someone of this point of view comes to Geneva because they come very often. We would like to do something very good. What is the best thing to do? We are expecting somebody for tomorrow evening just near the house where I live and we must do something against him.

Shri Mataji: Simply give a bandhan; just give bandhan. He wrote to Me a letter about a Dean, you know, from, a [doc] was written, written up, from Cambridge. And Jim and Hillary have got a, a restaurant in that medical college. And the Dean of that medical college, he is a disciple of Mahesh yogi. So when he came down to the restaurant, he saw My photograph. Perhaps they know about Me. So he said, “Why this photograph is here?” He said, “It’s all right. It isn’t doing any harm”. So then he called for a very big meeting, brought [unclear], spent lot of money, this, that. So they wrote to Me, Jim and Hillary that, “Mother, You see, please put Your attention as they are going to have a very big meeting,” and deliberately I was [putting them into] [bandhan]. So I just put My attention and when they came back they laughed and laughed. I said, “What happened?” He/Jim said, “Not a single person came to the meeting. He had brought [heating] such a big hall and all that, everything.” He has really accumulated so much money, so much money he has [accumulated]. He doesn’t know what to do [with them]. So much money. He got three aeroplanes. He got so many things he got. This lout fellow has got fifty-eight Rolls Royce and now he got the fifty-ninth one.

New person: Oh, really?

Shri Mataji: This is their image. They came in the fifty-ninth. He, he wrote to them, “I’ll come to India only if you give me the fifty-ninth Rolls Royce.” Poor this boy, you know, he did everything that he could. He sold their house and this and got him his present Rolls Royce. But he won’t come to Sahaja Yoga. John toyed with somebody.

New person: Okay.

Shri Mataji: John you know, John he went to see somebody because he was to [unclear] was going to see him. So he said “What’s this nonsense? You are [doing] nothing; is all absurd, you see. All this is madness is nothing but such of nonsense.” And he said, “Really?” and then they got into the car and this boy suddenly got into a tree. He got mad with all the car’s articles, here, there, braking a little. So John got out of the car. He said that, “This must be a mad fellow, isn’t it?” And ultimately he was caught up by the police because he really hit him. And thank God, John got out. He was hitting and he said, “Just now he is half-mad.” He’s a devil. He’s a demon, [this fourteen years is a demon [unclear].

I know all of them one by one, what they are, who really they [are] and how to get out of [that], which you should all learn. You definitely will know. But first get your realization. That is the first condition in Sahaja Yoga that you must get your realization. It’s not enough. You have to get your realization. You make the experiment. Then you become a Sahaja yogi. Then we’ll tell you everything about, not before. That is the first condition that you must get realization, and you should feel the vibrations and you experience the vibrations of others. You should be able to enjoy, and then you become a real Sahaja yogi. Otherwise, you see, if we’ll talk to you about it you’ll go mad, because it is tremendous. The knowledge is tremendous. The knowledge about Divine is tremendous. The communication power of God, of Divine is so great, it is remarkable. The fact is that/there. Some Sahaja yogis are now going to India, and Christine [from Switzerland has to organize them, their travels].

Marie has told, “Just put a photograph there.” So, that’s not the way to show you that somebody [has evolved] came to see Me from [America] all the way to India, now. So I mean whatever it is first of all get your realization. Sit here. [unclear name] translate so.

Sahaja Yogini: [Italian].

New person: True.

Shri Mataji: I have to try again to work it out. It’s discipline and effort. It’s only what I feel and I trust you. I’ve got some people in My trust which are all with you. It’s that, simple as that, clear as that. Where is it? It’s your own. Prashant? Come. There must be something about Me that you can trust as good. All right?

New person: All right.

Shri Mataji: He has a void.

Sahaja Yogini: Oh, yes.

Shri Mataji: Yes. [inaudible] sick to the toilet. Oh, God. His void is very much…

Sahaja Yogini: God, it’s terrible…

Shri Mataji: It is to be cleared out.

Sahaja Yogini: Means, Mother, that [shall I shoe-beat him]?

Shri Mataji: Aaa?

Sahaja Yogini: Means, Mother, that [I should shoe-beat him]?

Shri Mataji: It’s all right.

Sahaja Yogi: It’s that the void, Mother? It’s void.

Shri Mataji: Yes, that’s Void. Yes. Left Swadhisthan catching. Void. No, no that’s it. Come along. It will work out. It’s void and [unclear]. Certain points we have to work out, all right? Can you take out your belt? It will be better. And this black thread will do it better than that also.

New person: It’s probably not going to work, you see. It doesn’t undo.

Shri Mataji: Aaa?

New person: It doesn’t undo.

Sahaja Yogini: Scissors?

Shri Mataji: But you take it off.

New person: Scissors.

Sahaja Yogini: Okay?

New person: Scissors.

Shri Mataji: That’s little better, sit down. Sit that side. See the truth, see the truth, see. [In that, see] collectivity.

New person: Please, see/sit.

Shri Mataji: His Swadisthana. Just give him more bandhans. Can you see the procedure? It’s such, that you cannot become a member, there’s no membership, nothing, no organization but you have to become [something]. And we have to work, not you. You are not working. [Missing part]. And these fake gurus don’t work at all. But if they don’t do any work what’s their [purpose]? They sit down and take the money; that’s all. You see, they don’t do any work. It’s heart chakra I’m getting. Heart chakra. And this one is done. All right. [unclear]

Sahaja Yogini: Do you want to attend to you?

A person: I really want it.

Shri Mataji: Ha. Now you ask the question, “Mother, am I my own guru?” Ask the question.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: All right, again.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: Again.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: Again.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: Again.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: Again.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: Again.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: Again.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: Again.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: Again.

New person: Mother, am I my own guru?

Shri Mataji: Ha. See. [unclear name] you see. [Must I tell you about?]. Left void.

Sahaja Yogini: I understand.

Shri Mataji: So left Swadhisthana it is there. Oooo…

Sahaja Yogini: Please feel the absolute truth.

Shri Mataji: Left Swadhisthana it is there still. Aaa. Better?

Sahaja Yogini: Yes.

Shri Mataji: Better?

Sahaja Yogi: Swadhisthana is still.

Shri Mataji: Swadhisthana? Yes. Ha, yes. He’s better now.

Sahaja Yogi: [But left heart].

Shri Mataji: Ha. Yes, left heart is still. Put your right hand on the heart, please. Ha. Vishuddhi, now don’t feel guilty, you see. That’s again economically [unclear] is very cheap. Never to feel guilty. Now, better?

Sahaja Yogi: Heart is there [unclear].

Shri Mataji: Heart is still there. All right? Now don’t feel guilty. Vishuddhi.

Sahaja Yogini: It’s really I think [done]. I must congratulate you. You are much better now?

Shri Mataji: All right? Ha. Come. [Nabhi it is]. Please put bandhan. Now there’s one thing, I can’t get over your own freedom, you see. So you will have to ask for it. You say, “Mother please give me realization.” I can’t get over…

New person: Mother ,please give me realization.

Shri Mataji: Again. Again.

New person: Mother ,please give me realization.

Shri Mataji: Again. Once more.

New person: Mother, please give me realization.

Shri Mataji: Ha. All right? Going out. Don’t think. Don’t think. Better, see now. All right, once more.

Sahaja Yogini: It’s warm, cool, warm, cool.

Shri Mataji: You see what is it?

Sahaja Yogini: Now it’s really cool again.

Shri Mataji: [It’s a bit longer] Hmmm… And now even more, all right? Come along, come. Rest one moment. [unclear] What I’m saying once you get realization then you get correct answer. See, the Kundalini must come up because in the seeker it will come up with the force [and it works out]. Hmm… That can’t be in five minutes.

Sahaja Yogini: I can see that.

Shri Mataji: Seems like [unclear] for a time. What is it?

Sahaja Yogi: Vishuddhi is the problem.

Shri Mataji: Vishuddhi is. Ha. It’s obvious. [unclear]. Hmm. It is there. Better? All right? Ha. It’s all right? It’s cool. Very [unclear]. Hmm. Better? [unclear] All right.

New person: [Inaudible]

Shri Mataji: Vibrations? Yes, it is more.

Sahaja Yogini: It’s beyond [unclear]. Hmm, what’s it [unclear], Mother?

Shri Mataji: Heart. Ha. It’s heart. [unclear]

Sahaja Yogini: Finished.

H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi