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Conversation with Sahaja Yogis, in ashram Le Raincy, Paris, (France), 1984, May 7th
[Shri Mataji is working on the Agnya of a Sahaja Yogi]
Sahaja Yogi: His father is from Vietnam.
Shri Mataji: Where is he from?
Sahaja Yogi: Vietnam.
Shri Mataji: Ah.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, there’s so much pressure on Vishudhi.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Sahaja Yogi: Vishudhi Mother.
Shri Mataji: There’re no vibrations coming out.
Ah, again. Are you feeling in the hands?
Ah! Lao Tze was [inaudible].
Shri Mataji: Well done, you see? It’s coming.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, it’s cool now.
He doesn’t know how to thank you for all the things You have done for him.
Shri Mataji: No, no. It’s your own, it’s your own.
All right. Now you say: “Mother, you are Lao Tze.” Just say.
Again. Again. Again. Again. Again. Again, again. [The Sahaja Yogi says it ten times]
Bast [Hindi; stop]
All right? It’s perfect! There’s no thought, no thought in your mind. You’re watching without thinking, can you say that?
You have a bit of Agnya, that thing. How long have you been using spectacles?
Sahaja Yogi: Since ten years.
Shri Mataji: Left Agnya is caught up. It’s all right, it will work out. It’s perfect now, it started flowing. Take a [?] then it works out. Ah! It’s over there now. It’s your own, work it and you can be.
Now, Tao has said it. Whatever he said the problems are, you’ll feel that comfort.
You see now, without Realization you can’t do Tao. That state one must have because you have to be a free person. It’s working, it will go all the time now flowing. See now, from his [inaudible] there are, say, go ahead.
I think this fellow never told you [inaudible].
Michel Cernay: Shri Mother, when we spoke about acupuncture with Eric, in Rouen, we had an awful Left Swadisthana. Again, when we asked the question: “May he practice?” we had a Left Swadisthanan and also about acupuncture itself.
Shri Mataji: Yes, because, you see, when he treats left-sided people, he catches from them. And the whole of that is going into him, you see. He catches, he doesn’t know how to protect himself. So he’s just caught up. You see, all the psychologist, they have this Left Swadisthana problem. That’s how he has a Left Swadisthana. And once he knows, when he’s authorized he gets well. First, he must get well. He must know, he must become an expert then he can treat.
Sahaja Yogi: Mataji, would you like to go out first and then-
Sahaja Yogi: After the questions probably.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, excuse me, there is a problem. Maries’s just gone to Gare de Lyon because Madeleine is there, she has no more money, no more passport and her bag have been robbed.
Shri Mataji: What it is?
Sahaja Yogini: Madeleine from Switzerland.
Sahaja Yogi: Madeleine from Switzerland got attacked, robbed.
Shri Mataji: Who’s it, Madeline?
Sahaja Yogi: Madeleine from Switzerland. So she has no more money, no more ticket, no more passport and Marie has gone now to get her.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s not a problem, we give her money, she goes to Switzerland and gets new papers, it’s all right.
Shri Mataji: She can’t go if she has to take a passport.
Sahaja Yogi: No through France and Switzerland it’s [inaudible].
Shri Mataji: Madeline is another one. She used to indulge into something very, very funny. Did she tell you about it? So, there was some sort of a- in Sicily, that they were having photographs and a camera. Just switch it off, it’s personal….
[No transcript here]
…But, as soon as I saw the photograph, I said: “This is nonsense there”. It is sympathetic. So I gave a bandhan to my own photograph and the ghost is out. She came from there [supraconscient]. So she developed a funny disease, she got a – what did you say about her; Marvin? There, when we met.
Marvin: Ah, that old lady. Yes. There’s something very wrong with her. The whole brain, the whole head just confused when she came into the room, I just felt everything swimming in my head. And totally, she made everything confused. Every time she spoke my head just started swimming.
Shri Mataji: You see? And I did tell her everything. She got a very [inaudible] and funny disease, you see. A very funny disease she had and she got rid of it in Sahaja Yoga, physically. But mentally, somehow, she still has it. Mental trouble still she has. And that’s why these things are happening to her, very credulous mother, too many. I mean, that means everything can happen with Sahaja Yoga’s photographs. [Unsure]
Like, you know, this boy of – translating, what’s his name? Methane’s son, he lost his purse. Pick-pockets, pick-pockets. And my photograph was in that. Now the thief went to the police station and he said that: “I’ve done the greatest sin that I could ever commit. I’ve done many pick-pockets and this was the worse of all.”
And they said: “What?” He said: “See, his mother is there and somebody is some child of Mother and I’ve picked up the purse from this one. So you please inform him to come and take it.” And these people have telephoned to the police in the same area. So they call him and he felt at his feet and he said: “Please, forgive me. I’ll go to jail, anything you saved, now take this.” But the police, you see, released him. The thing was like that. Anything can happen by itself. [Unsure]
[Cut in the video.]
Shri Mataji: I feel the thing is,
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, Mother.
Shri Mataji: It’s not come out that well, like in the original one. It is like a mask, I mean. The original one is very softened.
Sahaja Yogi: We have to make one- we’ll take a try, it is a bit up to you, Mother, before we start.
Shri Mataji: You see, this is not enough, but I think the vibrations are showing on the face and the hands, you see, the hand also looks so white as if I’ve been fainting or have been crying or something else. His vibrations have made it so white. You see, that’s why.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, this is because of the photo spark. And with the printing, it will be perfectly exactly like the photograph.
Shri Mataji: All right. You see, what I’m saying, he has the vibrations I think, I saw it on the face and on the hand. Have you seen? Look at the hand how white it is, you see. It happens that the whole hand looks white, Sometimes the foot looks white. Sometimes suddenly a white thing comes up here you see all sort of things happen.
Sahaja Yogini: Thyme from the countryside in France.
Shri Mataji: What is this? Ah.
Sahaja Yogi: Thyme from a country, Mother, in France.
Sahaja Yogi: You would you like to keep it in front of.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, that’s why.
Shri Mataji: You see the hands, whatever is the hand is so white, you see. As if I had painted my hand, can you see that? And this becomes then the light, you have seen that.
Sahaja Yogi: Completely white.
Shri Mataji: Completely white and as if I had painted my face, painted my hand.
Sahaja Yogi: All this is done by hand Mother. Even the letters are done by hand.
Shri Mataji: Ah, it’s beautiful. I think that’s why the vibrations are shown. It’s possible; possible.
Shri Mataji: Now, what is that?
Michel C.: This is another of his works. And it’s a project for.
Sahaja Yogi: A poster for Sahaja Yoga. The way of the Spirit.
Shri Mataji: It’s done well. What does this indicate?
Michel C.: It’s the flower of lily. It was the symbol of French monarchy.
Shri Mataji: What monarchy?
Michel C.: French monarchy.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Michel C.: And it is, I think for France, a lotus, the symbol of purity in France.
Shri Mataji: It’s the Trinity, is it? Now, I would say that you see, this was used also as for Prince of Wales in England. Lilies.
Beautiful. So symbolic.
Michel C.: Could we use it as a symbol for French Sahaja Yoga or is it just a beautiful work?
Shri Mataji: It can, you see, what I’m saying, you can use it for French Sahaja Yoga, it’s all right. But we can’t use it in India. We have some [ ?]. You see, people are still- all right, I mean Sahaja Yogis are all right – but if it goes to the other people they’ll say that you see, I am propagating Christianity. If I put anything, says, Swastika here, they say I’m propagating Hinduism, you see, that’s the problem. So, it’s a very good idea.
Michel C.: That’s why there is a OM.
Shri Mataji: And here, it should be used, Swastika! Because it means Germany, you see, so it’s not proper to do. This is called as “samayachara” according to the time, you have to make it because people are so stupid.
Michel C.: That’s why we have a Om, Omkara on the-
Shri Mataji: Omkara also you did not have. If you have Omakar, they might say: “This is, why Omkara?” They don’t mind Omkara?
Michel C.: No, they don’t. They don’t know really.
Shri Mataji: They don’t know but they might think it’s a propagandising stuff.
Sahaja Yogi: They would say, maybe, it’s Hinduism.
Michel C.: It’s written Yoga.
Shri Mataji: It’s written the word “yoga” so –
Sahaja Yogi: And here it’s written Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Try as much as possible. It’s not easy.
Michel C.: Can we use this for public programs when you are not here in person when we are just-?
Shri Mataji: For what? For advertising?
Michel C.: For advertising, yes.
Shri Mataji: I don’t think so.
Michel C.: No.
Shri Mataji: You see, people are very critical and they’ll find out something somewhere. You should use my photograph for advertising. It’s all right for Sahaja Yogis. Because again it becomes you know, a controversial thing, you see. And people are so stupid in this world, you can’t imagine. For nothing at all, they know how to have a controversy. They don’t want to see, they don’t have a constructive mind, it’s a destructive mind. That is what the trouble is.
Michel C.: And can we use the other one?
Shri Mataji: This is all right, it can be, absolutely. Because this is, after all, a living thing and they can’t have an objection to my face.
[Laughter]. What it is? People are very stupid I think.
Shri Mataji: Whose sari is this one? Yours? Your sari?
Sahaja Yogini: Yes.
Shri Mataji: It’ll get spoiled. It’s a beautiful sari, isn’t it?
Sahaja Yogini: Yes, it’s a very good one.
Shri Mataji: So, what’s the interview about, let’s see.
Michel C.: So we have noted down questions, when we could talk, on different things.
Shri Mataji: But somebody should translate it.
Michel C.: So could You repeat what I have asked you in the car in Rouen?
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Michel C.: Buddha, Shankara, so that it can be [inaudible].
Shri Mataji: Shankara?
Michel C.: Shankara, what incarnations were they? Or You can speak like that.
Shri Mataji: You see, as I told you that there are incarnations. And now, the incarnations are the ones which are absolutely divine personalities. Like, we can say that first the Power of God separates from God All-mighty and starts creating. That’s the Adi Shakti. That’s the Holy Ghost. Then She creates the Powers of Mahakali, Mahasarasvati and Mahalakshmi. Now, these three Powers then they produce children. And that’s how they have three daughters each and three sons each. And we say that they intermarry, but “marry” doesn’t mean the way we human beings understand but they become powers in inter-connecting. Like Shri Vishnu’s sister is Oma, is the- what you call Parvati who is the Kali. And She matches- She is the sister of Shri Vishnu. Like that there’s an interchange. Now, these incarnate on this earth except for Shiva who does not.
Brahmadeva incarnated (about two or) three times. The first time He incarnated as Ali, the son in law of Muhammad Sahib. Also earlier He was incarnated in India. But outside, I mean to say. And then when He was incarnated in India again as one great Saint. But mostly He does not.
So, the only person who incarnates actually in a mere form is Shri Vishnu.
And once only Shri Ganesha incarnated as Lord Jesus. Now, the Devi, the Goddess incarnates as Mahalakshmi many times. Throughout, She has been incarnating as Mahalakshmi or as Mahakali. Ultimately, now She is incarnated as Adi Shakti. All right?
Now, these are Divine personalities, absolutely Divine you see. But once, Shri Rama, it is the incarnation of Shri Vishnu, and Sita, She is the incarnation of Mahalakshmi shakti, they, when they came on this earth, they produced two children which we can call as Divine as well as human beings. Because they had special powers that special assistance so that they could become leaders for human beings like the rings [unsure], you see. These two children were called as Lav and Kush.
Lav went, after the death of Shri Rama, to the Caucasus. So the people in Russia are called as Slav. And Kush went to China, so the people of China are called as Kushans. So that’s how these two incarnations which we call as the disciple principle- not the guru principle because the guru principle also incarnates but they are absolute Divine. So they incarnate on this earth as disciple’s principles.
So, first of all, they incarnated we can say as Lav and Kush. But they are especially helped by Gabriel, Saint Gabriel and Bhairav, Saint Mickael. Now, these two incarnations also incarnated later on as Buddha and Mahavira. Then, Buddha incarnated on this earth and Mahavira, in the six century again as Shankara. Buddha incarnated as Shankara. Later on, they were again reincarnated on this earth as Mahavira [no] – Mahavira incarnated on this earth as Kabira. Also, Khalil Gibran is one of them. Markandeya is the same incarnation. We can say our mister Blake is the same, one of them. So these come on this earth as poets, as devotees of God, of tremendous capacity, to paint, to sing the songs, to talk of God. And also they incarnated as Hassan and Hussein who were the children of “Fatima bi” who was the wife of Ali and daughter of Muhammad Sahib. So that’s how they have incarnated again and again on this earth. It’s the disciple principle.
And we had one Lao Tze. Lao Tze was the Primordial master, an incarnation of the Primordial master, but the principle of disciple was born as Bodhidharma who started Zen. So the Zen people you know more in that, into the paintings and into the poetry and all that. So all these people who are poets of this calibre, who are Realized souls, who paint also with their poetry, and are artists, all of them are from this intermediary type of, you can say, incarnation. All right?
Michel C.: Now, a question about Sahaja Yoga itself. What is the role of Sahaja Yoga in the Last Judgement? What is its place?
Shri Mataji: Sahaja Yoga is – Sahaja Yoga today is the Last Judgement, today. Sahaja Yoga has been brought because “sahaja” means spontaneous and always the Realization has been spontaneous. Whether it was at the time of Adinat, whether it was time of Buddha or whether it was time of Christ, it has been always spontaneous. Pantajali also has described it as a spontaneous happening. So, everybody has described a spontaneous thing. The only difference is that before this, the seekers had to cleanse themselves and had to surrender themselves to the gurus and then only gurus would give them Realization.
But else, your Guru is a Mother. She has now this job of giving you en-masse Realization. It’s her speciality. But en-masse Realization is also part of the plan. The plan is today is of the Last Judgement. And the Last Judgement has to be done by a person who is nothing but compassion. Only a Mother can do the Last Judgement. Otherwise, you see, anybody who is a man, like Christ who crucified Himself, or if it is Shri Krishna, He will just kill you. Everybody will have their own style, only the Mother is the one who can understand the problems of the children with compassion, love and She ‘s the one with very delicate care can take them to the right path of ascent. So, the Mother had to come. So, this is the Last Judgement.
Now, the judgement is not going to be done by some sort of a weigh or anything. It’s the Kundalini. You know yourself and it is you who judge yourself. There’s no need for anybody to judge. You judge yourself, you yourself come and say: “Mother, my Agnya is caught up, catching. Means I’m egotistical.” You say that: “My- Mother, my Agnya is catching, I’m egotistical.” But you don’t mind saying it because you are out of it, you can judge yourself. So, the Last Judgement is when you separate yourself from yourself and you see yourself and judge yourself. You are the judge and you are the criminal.
And you are the correcting point and you are the transformer. You do every thing to yourself.
Michel C.: Are you going this time to kill Asuras for the last time because in the Hindu mythology, they explain that the Devi, Mother, killed Asuras but they are still incarnated now. So, shall it be the last time?
Shri Mataji: Yes. Now, you see, the thing is if you see the whole development of the stage, the Mother Earth was created and before the Mother Earth was created, there were other stages on which the Divine plan was worked out.
At that stage the Mother Earth was created, the human beings were created. They were brought to this level.
Now, it is going to separate again and the rest of it is going to be completely destroyed. But still, there are intermingled you see. They are there because the stage is the same. For example now supposing I throw this down here, but still, it is in the room. Bu, supposing I take this table out then it goes out of here. So that, now at this stage when you are Realized souls, you’ll be all lifted up and the rest will be thrown out. So it’s a complete destruction. No doubt.
Sahaja Yogi: I have a futuristic question Mother.
Shri Mataji: What is it?
Sahaja Yogi: So, what this will be? Will this take- how many duration, will it take a long time?
Shri Mataji: No, no, no. Just wait and see.
Michel C.: Close to the same subject, Mother. Why did you perform two times Sahasrara Day in France?
Shri Mataji: Ah, that’s it!
I don’t want to say it but now, as you have asked Me direct questions I will tell you why that I told that in France human beings have established the doors of Hell. The whole culture they have worked it out in such a way that it’s a straight forward march towards Hell if you come to France. Yes, in Paris, ask anyone, any Sahaja Yogi coming and they’ll go [Shri Mataji puts both hands on Her Sahasrara] So I’m working on that spot where one has to go.
Michel C.: Is that the reason for which You say that people didn’t have to be frightened of negativity?
Shri Mataji: Oh, you people, should be very brave because you have to fight them. On the contrary,
you people are frightened of vibrations, this, that. No, no, no, no. You must do that, you have to fight, you are the people who have to fight the most of problems. That’s why there are young people here.
Michel C.: Now, about France, are there self-vibrating regions or nadis in France? Especially, there is always swayambhu [created by itself] or lingaas [image of God] in India. One in Australia.
Shri Mataji: Must be, I’m sure, must be there some lingaas like that, must be, coming out of the Mother Earth, must be. We should find out. But, because the Naraka [Hell] is created here, you see, they are all gone with that, all the vibrations are covered. But, Notre Dame, for example, the Deity there is vibrating. And who conceived Notre Dame was a Realized soul, no doubt. There are so many things I feel about it. But, because of the whole thing – just think of the culture, it all works out towards Hell. The whole culture is like that. Now, I mean, it was not so bad, they used to talk of virtues, they used to talk of God, they used to talk of the Spirit, they used to talk of goodness, rightness, nobleness, all that’s finished now. Because the whole thing has been brought down to this point that we all have to go to Hell, en masse, that’s the decision.
So, can you imagine the vibrations so – now, [ ?] is a strong fellow I should say, people are quite strong, but coming to Paris, he did not know what he would have to face. So you people have to be extra strong. As it is, you are quite immune to this.
Sahaja Yogi: In Belgium, they get immune to this, Mother.
Shri Mataji: They get immune. You are not to get frightened of bad vibrations.
If you believe that Sahaja Yoga is very strong, nothing can happen. Your Mother is the strongest of all, if you believe in your Mother, nothing can happen.
Michel C.: Yes, in the same subject. Did you hear about the Three Secrets of Fatima? You know, the revelations that took place in Portugal.
Shri Mataji: I don’t believe in that one so much. I think it’s a myth. I have a feeling it’s a myth because those people who have been there, have been very much badly caught up. I don’t know if I have to believe in that, I didn’t go there, but I think it did not exist.
Michel C.: So, there is no question. You say-
Shri Mataji: Or could be some spirit who might have done it. It’s a supraconscious thing, could be. But supraconscious things could be correct also. They need not to be always wrong because they see the future. Like a person who got supraconscious talked about Me.
So, they can be true also. And a “bhoot” can talk about Me also. So, that doesn’t mean that whatever they say is absolute truth. But for that, there are saints or that comes from God.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, can I ask you, just a question? During the Mahasahasrara Day, You spoke that we now have reached a new state and we may come back from work and see You in our room, putting Your hand on our Sahasrara. So, how to know if-
Shri Mataji: And you actually see Me. You actually see.
Now you have seen in my hand the Sun. You have seen it yourself. Actually, you have seen it. If the camera can see it, why can’t you see it?
Sahaja Yogi: It’s a big surprise.
Shri Mataji: Ain’t you already surprised?
Sahaja Yogi: Oh, yes.
Michel Cernay: Mother, you said that the river Thames was the Tamasa in England.
Shri Mataji: Tamasa river.
Michel Cernay: That is why the Guru puja was performed there. Are there other rivers connected with such Nadhis in Europe?
Shri Mataji: Actually, you see, I would say that Tamasa river I know because the Dattatreya meditated there. And all your rivers can become Ganges if you people are there. Naturally, they have to be prophets. But the trouble is that you have to become Sahaja Yogis of that level so that you really become Gods. And where the Gods reside [that’s] what the river gets it. Even the bath that you take goes to the river, everything goes to the river and the vibrated water goes there. I’ve taken my bath here, water flows to the river. So, it’s getting vibrated so it becomes Ganges, isn’t it?
For example, when I came, Thames was not at all vibrating. Now, it vibrates, Thames river vibrates.
Moreover, people are not so cautious about it, how to keep it clean, sometimes. But doesn’t matter.
For example, the vibrations of the river Ganges at say, at Haridwar, are thousandfold than there are at Benares. Because in Benares people don’t respect it the way it should be.
They put all durt in it, filth in it, and dead bodies so much that it goes and becomes even worse than it was through Calcutta.
Michel Cernay: We know that some towns are connected with chakras.
Shri Mataji: What?
Michel Cernay: Some towns, in countries, are connected with chakras.
Shri Mataji: [inaudible].
Michel Cernay: No towns but.
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course! I mean they are also. But, you see, what I am saying, let us do, at the most, that France is a part of, we can say, the liver. The liver is in France, we can say, the whole of Europe, we can say, is the liver. A part of it is France, you see. That’s how we can work it out. And I would say, France, we can call it as the gallbladder, could be. Could be the gallbladder because all the poison goes into that.
And the gallbladder is the one which digests, you see, all our fats, all our fats, you see. And it’s the Sun there, it’s the Sun chakra is there. That’s the Sun chakra. Gallbladder is the Sun chakra. And the people here, that’s why, suffer from all troubles of the liver because their gallbladder are out of order. Because their gallbladders are overactive, gallbladders are overactive so you get biliousness, you get this vomiting sensation, you get nausea, and all these troubles of the gallbladders.
Michel C.: A question about Christ. Why did Jesus-Christ hesitate at the holiest Mont before the crucifixion? In the Gospel, they say that when he was alone in the garden of olives, in Jerusalem, when the disciples were sleeping, he said, he hesitated to do the crucifixion and he said ‘if it is not necessary please that I don’t do it’. How is it that there is one moment of big hesitation?
Shri Mataji: You see, all these Deities or all these Incarnations have had one chakra to deal with, not seven chakras like Me [Shri Mataji is pointing towards herself]. So, there could be a diffidence on that point because he was born, as you read in the Mahavishnu’s life, you see, as a child, suddenly out of the blue and he didn’t see his father. He’s crying for his Father throughout, and throughout, he cried for his Father. And that’s why, at the time of his crucifixion, he had to think of his Father. Because, always he felt that his Father has to help him, you see, so he depended on his Father. He always talked of his Father, you see, always his fingers like this [Shri Mataji puts her right index straight] always taking help from his Father. So he talked of his Father. [Right index straight]
So, as a son, you have to have a little diffidence because the Father is there, you see, you have to take the help of the Father. So, just to show that, even at the crucifixion, he had to ask his Fathers, both. You see, it’s a very innate relationship between the Father and the Son. Because the Mother asked him to get crucified. So he asked the Father: “Is it necessary for Me to do it.”
That’s like, we should also understand that we should ask our fathers whether we should do it or not? Even when he hesitated, Sahaja Yogis should also hesitate and ask him before being suffering.
Michel C.: Is there something else, is there a special protocol to have with Mother Earth, with Shri Bhoomi Devi? Have we something special to do apart from shoebeating?
Shri Mataji: Yes, you see, in India, we touch the feet of Mother Earth before getting up, from the bed, putting our feet there, we touch with the hand and say: “Oh Mother, forgive us because we are going to touch you with our feet”, you see. But India is different, it’s a Yoga Bhoomi and the Kundalini of the universe is there. But even, if you respect your country, it will be better, because when you respect only, then the Gods are, you see, the Devas dance so you must respect, you must respect your country, it’s very important.
Michel C.: You said during the Mahashiva puja or perhaps Shri Lalita’s puja, that the way between the heart and the Sahasrara was now opened. Is there a relation with the number of English people who came for Sahasrara day this year?
Shri Mataji: [Laughting] Is he a poetic? How was that? English people have to travel quite a lot cause heart circulates, you see. And you will see, whatever happens in England goes all over the world. It is through England the whole circulation is done. It’s a small thing, but the whole circulation goes through England. That’s why I say you must learn English now because English is the language of these people. I had also to learn English, so you can learn English.
I never studied English for your information. I never studied English much because in the college school I studied in a vernacular school, in an Indian school, with the language that was my own mother tongue. I did my matriculation in my own mother tongue, Marathi itself. Then I did my Inter Science and little English was taught. And then I did my Medical, there was no English. So I didn’t, but English language is the easiest because it hasn’t got any twist like you have, you see, whatever you say is phonetic, quite phonetic, so it’s easy. I request you that you’d better learn English. [Laughting]
Michel C.: Mother, the other question is very [inaudible] it’s about cats and dogs. You spoke sometimes about dogs who were picture of the principle, disciples’ principle. What about cats?
Shri Mataji: No. No cats. Cats are animal, nothing wrong with them, but they are not- cats are – not cat. But tigers are all right.
Michel C.: Our flats are too short, Mother [inaudible] we have no space in our flat.
Shri Mataji: Cats, it’s all right for rats. But tigers, you can put if you like [laughter]. And they won’t do anything to you, you’re Realized souls.
Michel C.: Because we had cats in our ashram, but we would prefer tigers but it’s quite by the neighbours.
Shri Mataji: [inaudible]
I don’ t think they have innate dignity in them because they have lost the power. They’ve lost the power. All right, cats, it’s all right, you can keep it, there’s no harm. But why don’t take a dog also?
Sahaja Yogi: A dog?
Shri Mataji: Yes, why not?
Sahaja Yogi: Can I ask to you what dog you prefer?
Shri Mataji: Pardon?
Sahaja Yogi: Can I ask to you what dog you prefer?
Shri Mataji: What dog?
Sahaja Yogi: What kind of dog?
Shri Mataji: Alsatian are very good, Alsatian, the one she has.
Sahaja Yogi: The one she has.
Shri Mataji: Beautiful dog Alsatian.
Sahaja Yogi: And what about dogs who are named “Saint Bernard?”
Shri Mataji: Saint?
Sahaja Yogi: They are great dogs and they live in the Pyrenees.
Sahaja Yogi: They are white and…
Sahaja Yogi: Anyone of them will do. Except for the Bulldog.
Shri Mataji: Don’t have it, Bulldogs [unsure]. I think they must have been journalists in last life.
Sahaja Yogi: Or bishops, Mother.
Shri Mataji: I mean, they don’t have much sense for spirituality, I suppose, these Bulldogs. But all others you’ll find dogs understand vibrations. Horses understand vibrations very much. They understand spirits [dead souls] very well. Horses do. Dogs do also, but cats are not very intelligent I would say.
Michel C.: I read in an Indian text that a kind of munis who could flow, during the Tandava, through that point, and come at the other side.
Shri Mataji: To fly?
Michel C.: Great munis could flow with the universe at the dissolution time eh- through that time.
Shri Mataji: Yes, you see, these were the days when they tried to work out to overcome the nature through their Vedas, you see, and to overcome the forces of nature. But today, we don’t have that problem. Our problem is different, those days are over because we are already flying. So now, our objective is how to transform our awareness to the new awareness. That’s our problem.
Sahaja Yogi: He has to leave to Brussels, he’s going to Brussels now.
Shri Mataji: He’s going?
Sahaja Yogi: To Brussels.
Shri Mataji: Really?
Sahaja Yogi: He is playing in Belgium. He is going to live for two months there.
Shri Mataji: May God bless you. And what about your wife?
Sahaja Yogi: He is worried Mother.
Shri Mataji: May God bless you sweet.
Sahaja Yogi: We need to know, maybe, for the beginning, she can stay there.
Shri Mataji: I can’t hear you. My ears are buzzing with Paris now.
Sahaja Yogi: [come closer, inaudible]
Shri Mataji: Does she want to go with him? Where is he going?
Sahaja Yogi: To Brussels.
Shri Mataji: Brussels? When?
Sahaja Yogi: Tomorrow.
Shri Mataji: She should go. Two months is too big.
Sahaja Yogi: Yeshri?
Sahaja Yogi: In Belgium, there is this big Patricia and Nathalie’s house. Nathalie.
Shri Mataji: Not her? Nathalie is going to stay there?
Sahaja Yogini: No, no, Nathalie is not staying there, Mother.
Shri Mataji: [Speaks in Hindi]
Sahaja Yogini: I don’t know.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Sahaja Yogini: [Speaks in Hindi]
Shri Mataji: You want to take your wife with you? Because you’ll be there for two months.
All right? Nathalie’s house they can stay in?
Sahaja Yogi: It’s not very far, say, it’s a hundred kilometres from Brussels.
Sahaja Yogini: Mother, Nabhi is very bad in there.
Shri Mataji: Just a minute, just a minute.
Sahaja Yogini: Wait a minute.
Shri Mataji: I think best is to talk to Robert. When you – where will you stay in Brussels?
[The French translator does not understand the question]
Sahaja Yogi: Tonight.
Shri Mataji: Hum?
Sahaja Yogi: In the centre of Brussels.
Shri Mataji: She can stay with him. Can you?
You can manage with her?
[The French translator understands “can you take care of her”]
Sahaja Yogi: Half of the day.
Shri Mataji: No, but, I mean, can he afford it?
Sahaja Yogi: It’s a small room Mother in a working…
Shri Mataji: [Speaks in Hindi to the wife.]
She doesn’t mind. She’s all right. It’s all right.
[Speaks in Hindi to the wife.]
[Speaks in Hindi to the wife.]
You’ve got my address?
Sahaja Yogi: I think she will stay here one week, she will come.
Shri Mataji: She can come later. All right.
You go and arrange and then she’ll go. All right, good.
Michel C.: Mother, You spoke about your hair during puja when You comb your hair. Could you speak also about your holy face?
Shri Mataji is laughing.
Michel C.: How it was formed and how this illusion was made.
Shri Mataji: [Inaudible] I must speak? I think you discover.
It always changes, isn’t it? How can you describe something that is always changing? And one changing face! You see, the same time people take over what I am saying [unsure]. There are different from others, so it’s a funny face, you know. Differs according to the person, according to the camera, according to the angle, everything changes, what can I do about this face?
It is better for an artist to describe if he can, I don’t know.
Shri Mataji [to someone]: What happened? Don’t you worry?
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, Serge would like to know about the eleven powers of the Ekadesha Rudras?
Shri Mataji: Rudra?
Sahaja Yogi: The rudra, yes.
Shri Mataji: I think there’s a big lecture on that. Because it’s a very long thing. We have a complete tape on it, eleven rudras in England which you should get. Otherwise, it will take one hour to explain.
Shri Mataji: You make pizza here? You make here? You bought it? You bought it.
Sahaja Yogini: I bought the powder.
Shri Mataji: And you made it yourself?
Sahaja Yogini: [Inaudible.]
Shri Mataji: I’ll have of this if you have it.
Little bit. I must eat.
If Nathalie has made it, I must have it.
Sahaja Yogi: How is it possible to open our heart out more to you?
Shri Mataji: You see, the heart is always closed when you doubt or because you have had bad experiences. It’s the problem of the ego and superego, both the things. And the Sahasrara – actually, all these seven chakras emit an aura which covers the heart. So, when these auras are absolutely freely involved, completely integrated, then you must know that the heart is opened.
Now, Sahasrara is covered with ego and superego, both the things. On one side is your conditioning, another side is your ego.
Now, the conditioning can come, say, somebody is attached to Christ, say, for example. It becomes a conditioning. You have not seen Christ, you have not known Christ. Because you are born as a Christian you think that’s the truth [unsure]. Now, you get attached to it. It’s the past, so you can’t see the present. You get attached because you have read Bible, you have read a particular book, you follow a particular style of thinking, so you get attached, it’s all conditioning. Because your mother has said so, because your father has said so, because your society has said so, you’re not a free man. You are conditioned. That’s why the heart can be closed or that you are too egotistical, you have too much ego in you and you cannot open your heart because it says: “How can Mother be something so great? So why should we accept Her help? We should not after all. What’s wrong with us?” Like that, you see, these ideas may come.
So for that, first of all, you can find out from yourself what sort of a problem you have, whether it is ego or superego.
If it is ego, then you must try to neutralize it by rationally understand, or logically. You see, Mother, you’ve got photographs. It shows that there are lights falling on Mother. We have seen, in her hands, lights falling out, from the feet lights coming out that She’s something divine and I’m not divine. So there’s nothing to feel mediocre about Her. Just if you surrender.
But if it is from the conditioning, then you should reason it out that this conditioning has made you a slave out of the conditioning.
It is not a lining [unsure] you need to rise up to that. But, the best way is to put yourself like a patient before the photograph. Treat yourself, get well, your Sahasrara will open and your heart will open.
But today, the highest thing for knowing your Mother is nothing of the kind [unsure] it’s just devotion. So that [inaudible] devotion you had for Christ, for example, you don’t know whether he looks like the photograph or not, it is imaginary.
So what you do, you look at my photograph and expand your heart and: “Try to put the photograph in my heart.” You can say things to you from the photograph, you see. Let’s try to put it inside your heart. Then, many people have tried to [inaudible] so that’s how the heart progress. That’s the easiest way to do. Everything that you imagine or think now is divine, any people, because you are Realized souls, you are the [inaudible].
Shri Mataji: You want more?
Sahaja Yogi: He would like to know about a person who was very important in his life. Hi sname is- can you repeat it?
Another Sahaja Yogi: Ibrahime Muzari
Shri Mataji: What?
Sahaja Yogi: There was a man-
Sahaja Yogini: Called Ibrahime Muzari.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, and this man took a part in his education, you know, and he found beside this man a lot of things and found again when we presented him Sahaja Yoga and for meditation. And he would like to know about him.
Shri Mataji: What did he find?
Sahaja Yogi: It was a man.
Shri Mataji: I know.
[French Yogis speak together]
Shri Mataji [about the food]: Very good.
[The French Yogi says in French that it is not a martial art, but there is Zen in it and science.]
Sahaja Yogi: It’s a martial art mixed with philosophy and talking about Kundalini and something like that, this man was doing.
Another Sahaja Yogi: This man was teaching them martial art Mother, some sort of fighting techniques combined with philosophy.
Shri Mataji: Yes, must be that Karate business.
Sahaja Yogi: No.
Shri Mataji: It’s something like that.
Sahaja Yogi: He wants to know if he is a Realized soul or not.
Shri Mataji: Not important. Because Karate is out of begging [unsure?]
Sahaja Yogi: Begging?
Shri Mataji: Out of begging [unsure?]
Sahaja Yogi: I don’t know.
Shri Mataji: Now, you don’t need anything like that. It was for people who are not Realized souls, not for people who are Realized.
Sahaja Yogi: He wants to know if this man is Realized or not.
Shri Mataji: You can see now with your hands.
Sahaja Yogi: What’s his name?
Another Sahaja Yogi: Ibrahime Muzari
[Shri Mataji takes the vibrations and feels the Left Void]
Shri Mataji: You see, anybody can talk of philosophy. Philosophy, any body can talk, anybody who reads a book can talk. Our Bala used to be a great on philosophy once upon a time.
Shri Mataji: If you read any book you can talk. You can talk on Zen, you can talk on Tao, you can talk on Indian philosophy, you can talk on Bible. It’s not difficult. But the experience of Sahaja Yoga today is very, very precious. It does not only give you the experience of Self-realization but the complete opening of everything. The topics and subjects and everything that is needed, it’s all knowledge.
And a Realized soul, there are some people who were Realized souls who take to Sahaja Yoga. And when people told them that: “You are already born Realized,” they lost their heads. They just [Inaudible] their heads.
And they were lost to Sahaja Yoga. Except for very hight degree of Realized souls like Janaardan Maharaj or this fellow who is from Calicut, called Bhramachari. Except for these people, because they know what I am, there’s no problem. But they too cannot give Realization as you can give.
You know, one person who met Me- who was in the second trip [in India]? Second trip. We went to a village in a – in Kolapur. Lots of people came from all over. The man who arranged that program out of 21 villages, people said, that man went to one of them [Realized Guru]. And they told him, you have to do this cleansing, that cleansing, this, that. Never gave him Realization. And a year before, this man came to Me and got Realization. He was surprised: “And all these days, I’ve been doing all the things he told me, I did this, I did that, I eat this food and I said this mantra, everything, I never got Realization for fourteen years!” He fasted, he did all kinds of things for him, he never got Realization.
So he went to this guru and asked him: “Why? I’ve been doing what you told me for fourteen years and just like that Mother gave me Realization.” So he said: “She’s Adi Shakti, how can I give you Realization just like that!” And then some Sahaja Yogis are asking that: “How is it, Mother, that we can give Realization and why can’t he?”Because I have given you Realization myself [unsure]. Not only that, but I am in your heart because you always use my photograph. But he does not use my photograph while I gave him Realization. So that’s why he cannot. He knows that I’m Adi Shakti. But he does not meditate before my photograph. But this is only for Sahaja Yogis, it’s not to be told to others. I don’t want him to feel bad because he is really an evolved soul. He’s actually John the Baptist himself born again.
Sahaja Yogi: What are the three Powers of Mahalakshmi, Mahasarasvati, Mahakali?
Shri Mataji: What are the Powers? Of these three Deities?
[Laughter ; applause]
Shri Mataji: But Mahakali Power, you see, is comfort for you and to your [inaudible] That means She fulfils your desire. All your desires are fulfilled by Her, Ma.
Then Mahasarasvati Power. She gives you knowledge. Why not?[Unsure] by which you can conceive you can talk to them. So many journalists asked me: “Are your disciples all scholars?” I said: “No. Of course, in the West, we have many scholars but in India that was the ordinary [inaidible] “
They said: “They all talk like scholars.”
So, through the Mahasarasvati Power, you get the knowledge, the gnosis.
And by the Mahalakshmi Power you get redeemed, you redeem others and you get redeemed, you get evolved. And you become the truth.
So, you see, by Mahakali Power, you desire. By Mahasarasvati Power, you act and achieve. And by Mahalakshi Power, you become. But there are so many powers that are like this, now say, how does She fulfill your desire?
There was a lady who had a big problem for seven years and she wrote a letter to Me on Gavin’s service. And Gavin didn’t give Me the letter, he forgot for two days. And she telephoned after two days – I didn’t even receive the letter. that: “Somehow, all my problems are solved, don’t tell Shri Mataji about it.”
It is very simple to understand that when the child is to be born, the mother, when she conceives, she gest the milk in her breast, automatically. But there must be a great mechanism to do this, isn’t it? Tremendous and efficient one. And how to explain it to human being, love?
[Video from 1:51:20 or second audio.]
[Marie gives a very long translation]
Shri Mataji: Done?
This is what it is you see, but, again as I warn you for discretion, you must know what are the artificial “hamsa” and which are normal things which are supposed to be done. It doesn’t mean that you become abandon, a free person doesn’t mean abandon, never.
[Marie gives a very long translation]
Shri Mataji: I must say 21 stages, [unsure] when you say so much [inaudible]
Sahaja Yogi: Mother there is a very logical explanation for it.
Shri Mataji: What?
Sahaja Yogi: There is a very logical explanation.
Another Sahaja Yogi: She forgot something at the beginning.
Shri Mataji: Of course.
Shri Mataji: Sometimes she finishes so soon, second one was just a sentence and she [inaudible]
Shri Mataji: So discretion, again. What to discard, what not to discard. The traditions are – so many traditions are very good, they are symbolic and the symbolism of that tradition must be understood. And if you understand the symbolism then you’d better do it.
For example, I’ll give you my own example: I was born in a Christian family. So, normally, you are supposed to pierce the nose, but Christians don’t do it. Though my father, my mother, both of them knew that I was so and so, they said: “We must pierce the nose”. But all the family people, you see, all the relations said: “No, because we are Christians we cannot pierce the nose.” And they did not pierce it. But it’s very symbolic and I have to wear, I have to pierce it. So maybe, I should next year, because if I don’t do it, I’ll have troubles with my nose. I know that. There’s a power there “siddhi”, for which I have to wear a nose ring or a nose decoration.
So, so many traditions which are symbolic must be understood in their own spirituality. Like English people have one tradition, they used to have, not now, that whenever they went to visit somebody, they used to take some charcoal with them. Because in those [times] people used to heat their houses with coal. And if supposing you sit with them and there is a use of the coal, it’s better to leave some coal so they heat it there, expressing the warmth.
But now, if you find an English man will never take anything to [inaudible] that state and don’t do it. You give them any amount of presents they never return your presents. It’s so common. If you give them ten diners they might invite you to one diner. It’s a common experience of all the Englands, all over the world, it is so. Compared to Indians, they are very, very miserly, all of them, despite the fact they are much richer people. The first time the Sahaja Yogis went to India, absolutely free, didn’t pay anything, for years they didn’t pay anything. And when they came back, they never even wrote a letter of thanks to anyone. Absolutely free they lived there.
And in India, people got worried they thought that all these people had got sick you know. And they were sending telegrams: “I hope they are there all right.” I said: “They are perfectly all right what is the matter?” And then they phone called to Me and asked Me on the telephone: “What’s the matter with all the people they are- are they all right?” And I asked them: “What’s the matter? They have not sent any letter?” They said: “Nothing! We have a low community [unsure].” I mean, these people have even borrowed money and everything and I asked them: “Why didn’t you write”. They said: “I know, I know.” They said: “We know, we know. We should have done but we did not” Finished. I mean imagine! Such things, I’ve seen myself! They never returned the money, of course, no question of returning the money, but at least send a letter of thanks.
And the whole thing is that we have abandoned all the good traditions in every way. Sometimes it shocks Me because I’ve known people in my childhood who were foreigners, people of great values and sense of gratitude and everything and when I find now the people around Me, yes, they have no sense of gratitude. But now, the Sahaja Yogis are going to re-establish those traditions we have forgotten which are very important. These are normal things we have to do. Even the dogs and animals have gratitude. If we don’t have gratitude, we are worse than animals, isn’t it?
So, we have to re-establish those traditions and those great things which are so important to be good human beings, to be virtuous, righteous human beings. So the traditions which have symbolic values must be re-establish in all the community and society and there should be reports about it between different communities and societies so that people learn good traditions.
For example, we should not assert on other people but we should learn from them. And that’s very important. Like an aeroplane, you see, is first fixed on the ground and then it ascends. Supposing all the screws are loose and the aeroplane rises, [Shri Mataji laughs] what will happen to the aeroplane? So all these screws must be tightened first.
So again the discretion is between abandonment and between tradition.
Also, traditions can get ruined, spoiled by time. So, you should bring it back to its natural position. Like in India, it was a custom, in every country it was a custom that because the boys inherit the father’s property, the girls were given part of the property as- because, after all, the girl is going to another family and she has equal right on the property. It was called as dowry.
And for example a king’s daughter won’t be sent without an elephant to anybody’s else family, isn’t it? Because she must keep some elephant with them. But now the traditions have become worse because it has rotten, you see, you can say, it has matured, as you call the cheese. [Shri Mataji laughs] Fungus has grown up.
So, as a result of that, now people started demanding that: “You must give so much.” In India now, the rule is that the girl gets half of the property of the father. He has to give equal to the half property. She can always claim it with the law. But despite that, now they demand the dowry.
So a good tradition has become rotten. So we have to purify, go to the symbolic principle of that and then imbibe that tradition.
Now, I’ll end up now all other things by one small “shloka” which you will understand by very simple things. They say: “Bakaha svetaha. Hamsah shvetah, bakah shvetah. kah bhedah hamsa bakayo.” The swan is white. The swan is a divine swan, is hamsa. The divine swan is white and the crane is also white. The crane, “bakah” is the crane, all white. What is the difference between the two? How can you make out the difference between the two? Because they both are white. So, what do they say: “Nira kshira viveketu.” When it is a question of discriminating between the water and the milk, then you can make out which is the swan and which is the crane. Because the swan will just drink the milk and leave the water.
The subtle part of it is that: “Kakah krishna pikah krishna, Ko bheda pika kaka yoho?” [Crow is black, Cuckoo is black, which difference? In Subhashitani, proverbs.]
See, the crow is black and the cuckoo bird is also black, what is the difference between the two? They say: “Vasanta samaye praptey, Kakah kakah pikah pikaha!” When the springtime comes in, “vasanta samaye“, then you know that crow remains the crow and the cuckoo bird remains cuckoo bird. Because cuckoo bird starts singing when this discretion teaches you when to love when to sing when to say things, because, if you are the cuckoo bird. But if you are the crow, all the time you will be doing: “Croa, croa, croa” [Laughter]
You have no sense of proportions.
[Cut in the audio]
See, I was in Rahuri and they had two programs. One was, they were celebrating Vivekanand in that program and afterwards was my program. So they wanted Me to garland the photo of Vivekanand because they said: “Mother he was a great son of India.” I didn’t want to do it but I said: “All right I’ll garland it.” The lights fell all off all the time. [Inaudible] Nobody saw whether I garlanded the photograph or I put it on the ground. But a soon as Sahaja Yoga started- [Big laughter] So “Vasanta samaye praptey tu” When it is the springtime, you make out who are the seekers and who are not the seekers. And some crow also joins in but you can find him out.
So, all right.
So may God bless you.
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi