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Conversation: Shri Mataji talks to doctors. Brighton (UK), 26 July 1984.
Shri Mataji: The fourth dimension that they mentioned about, what do they mean by that? That is the thing.
Warren: They call that transcendental state.
Shri Mataji: But what?
Warren: They can’t describe it.
(Here Mother says again “What?” while Warren is saying the word “describe”)
Shri Mataji: They can’t describe it, you see. Supposing somebody has a low heartbeat, low pulse rate or has a low consumption of oxygen or anything.
Warren: That’s not transcendental state.
Shri Mataji: That is not transcendental state, because you are still in the state, where your attention is on your body. So it is not a transcendental, you will have to transcend. Transcendental means you have to jump onto the parasympathetic. See, we have four dimensions we can say. One is the dimension of the left sympathetic, another is of the right sympathetic, then we have got the central nervous system, which is our conscious mind and the fourth one is the parasympathetic. Does he jump on the parasympathetic?
Warren: We do.
Shri Mataji: Yes. In Sahaja Yoga you jump onto the parasympathetic; means your attention starts controlling the parasympathetic nervous system. Then how do we prove it that we become the fourth dimension? First thing is, that the person, who becomes the controller of the parasympathetic, becomes the “Auto”. He can do things. He can do things, like she can tell that another person is suffering on these centers without going to any laboratory, without going to any medical check-up, on the fingertips. So the person, who becomes the fourth dimension, he becomes the “Auto”, which is the autonomous nervous system, you see, the “auto” part of it. He controls the parasympathetic. Now, when he controls the parasympathetic, he controls this supply to all the centers through certain movements, through certain kind of technique. For example a person is suffering from some disease of the heart. Now, a normal person, who doesn’t have this fourth dimension, will not know that she is suffering from any heart trouble. He will have no idea, he’ll never feel his heart or anything, till he suddenly gets the attack, and then he dies. But at the very onset of it the person, who is in the fourth dimension that is the realized soul, can feel that something is going wrong with his heart. Also he knows how to cure himself, the technique of curing himself, also he knows that he is the source of the medicines that he has to give, is the vital force.
So this is the fourth dimension, is a great potential, becoming a kinetic force, like an egg becoming a bird. So the egg we can see egg has no way of flying out, but the bird can. It is a tremendous difference between an egg and a bird. So such a person, who gets Realization and gets establishes, is no more a person, who can be tested by these machines and all that, because these machines deal only with the physical side, but it is he who can test. Even a child, who is a realized-soul can test another person. You don’t need any machines with that. He becomes the one, who diagnoses; he becomes the one, who cures; he becomes the person, who can soothe you. Not only that on physical level, but supposing somebody is emotionally disturbed, then such a person knows that another person is emotionally disturbed. He also knows precisely which center is disturbed; he also knows how to put that center right. You don’t have to go to lunatic asylum to get cured, but a person, who has fourth dimension, can cure that person of that sickness, because he precisely knows where the trouble is and how to cure it. So all the diseases, which are only physical, can be cured; which are the psychosomatic can be cured; the combination of both can be cured. Any combination of these things can be cured by a person, who is an established Sahaja Yogi. But in case a disease has gone so far that it is irreparable or something artificial has been introduced in the body, as they put sticks, steel-sticks and all that, then, Sahaja Yoga doesn’t work on dead things. It works on living. If the organ is still living, it can work out, but if it is not living, then it does not work out.
It works out on eighty per cent of people, but the twenty per cent of people on whom it cannot not work out, are the people, who do not have a basic foundation to be a human being. They are like animals; their attitudes towards are animals, even worse than animals. So a state that could be a so-called fourth dimension could be where a person is no more a human being; he becomes either a devil or a satanic person. This has to be accepted by medical science that there are people, who can be very devilish and they cannot ascend any further into the fourth dimension. The fourth dimension is not a mechanical process, but is a living process of the evolution by which you evolve to a higher being. But for that you have to have some basic foundations. A person, who is an alcoholic, can be cured of alcohol, but a person, who is cheating himself, cheating other people, is cruel to others, or say, a person like Hitler, he cannot ascend. He’s gone beyond that stage, where we cannot cure him. We can cure animals, we can cure human beings, but not people, who are abnormal or we can, there is no word for some the …, but satanic people, and that’s how it doesn’t work out in some people. Also the cases which have gone very down onto the state, where we can say now, absolutely out of order, then Sahaja Yoga allows such a body to take another birth and try.
So because it’s a fourth dimension, we cannot take medical science as a vehicle to express everything, because this is higher than that. But in many ways we can medically show that people have been cured of anginas, of cancer, of leukemia, of everything through the vehicle of parasympathetic nervous system, which doctors cannot handle. Because they have their own limitation, they cannot jump onto the parasympathetic nervous system, and that is why they cannot cure a person, who has problems of the parasympathetic.
All problems can be solved through parasympathetic in case there are basic conditions; if they are fulfilled. In the medical science people will even treat Hitler – there is no discrimination. But as you grow higher and higher even in evolution you become more discreet, and at this stage you cannot treat a person, who is a hypocrite or who is a cruel man or who is aggressive to others or who is practicing methods to subvert people. And we have many gurus, who take money and destroy many people just for money’s sake. Such people can never go to the fourth dimension, why should they talk about fourth dimension? Such people have to be something so extraordinary that they become righteous, virtuous, compassionate and very dynamic people. They have the greatest quality, is of compassion, which though we accept in our ordinary life, in medical science we do not accept. But on what basis is the medical science? Is compassion. So you become the compassion. This is the fire point is to be seen. When we talk of the fourth dimension, we talk of the beyond. And when we talk of the beyond, we have to project our mind to see what do we expect ourselves to be, when we become something of the beyond. Are we going to be the same mean, aggressive, complicated human being or are we going to be something like a saint? So this projection has to be brought in the minds of the doctors. Unless and until they project their minds to that extent to see that, “If we have to be at a higher position, we have to accept that we have to be better people.”
Now Sahaja Yoga is the synthesis of all the three powers that are within us. The first is the physical power, the second is the emotional power and third is the evolutionary power. You become the synthesis of all these three powers. It’s not the analysis, but medical science is the analysis. So it just analyses physical side, goes on analyzing so that you have one doctor for one eye and another doctor for another eye. But a doctor has to understand that there is no solution for many problems that we have. So they have to raise their eyes higher to see that, “There must be something missing that we have to know.” Of course medical science is very important. Because once you get your Realization, even you may not be a doctor, and you become established Sahaja Yogi, you can cure people. But with medical science you can prove that it has been cured. So medical science also has its own purpose. And the basics of medical science that is compassion, is now expressed through the human being, who becomes the embodiment of compassion. It’s not poetry, it’s not some sort of a abstract thing, but is a happening of evolution that has to take place and this is the last breakthrough about which many people, scientists and also doctors, we can say psychologists have talked about, though they are not taken seriously. So now there is time for us to think seriously about it and to know that we are not only this body, mind and ego, but we are something beyond that is the fourth dimension. And what are we there? We are the “Auto” and the “Auto” is called as “Self”.
Unless and until you project your mind higher and do not get contented with what discoveries you have made on a physical gross level, you cannot see the point of view of Sahaja Yoga. And what is there to argue about? When Sahaja Yoga is curing people, why do you argue? Why don’t you see how it is curing? Supposing a doctor is practicing, and people go and argue with him: “How do you cure?” You will tell him: “What do you mean? I’m not supposed to tell you all that, but I do cure”. Now you have a certificate, say from a medical college or somewhere, so you think you are a doctor, but supposing somebody has a certificate from the Divine Itself, then why not see, why not keep your eyes open like a scientist, why close them by whatever you have known so far. Why make a barrier out of the scientific research you have done, why not be a research student in Sahaja Yoga also and see for yourself that you really achieve that state. You have to become that state. While those who talk of the fourth dimension otherwise, make people mad, they make them lunatics. They end up as lost races. So how can that be a fourth dimension? There are so many cases of these people, one can show that doing those horrible courses and things they have become really mad. And they are good for nothing, they are cheats. They are doing all the bad things that one can do. So how can you say that this meditation helps anyone to be a better person or better person in health?
Moreover, to be only all right in health is not sufficient. One must also see that point. One should not be so much attached to the body, because supposing if you have all the wrestlers or boxers in this country, now take a position like that, then what will happen? As it is, we have too many of them. Now what we need, are the saints. Not physically over-healthy people, who will try to boss over others, but people, who are saints, who can help without charging any money, without any aggression, out of compassion, effortlessly, those who are suffering physically.
But there is another barrier, which must be told very frankly, that when you become a Sahaja Yogi the vital forces of new dimension start flowing effortlessly and you do not charge any money for that. You enjoy your own compassion. Compassion, that is the basis of medical science. So that state maybe doctors may not try to have. But there are many, many people, who cannot be cured by Sahaja Yoga and they can come to doctors, so doctors should not have fears about it. How many people can be helped by Sahaja Yoga, cannot be said, but those who come to Sahaja Yoga can be helped. So it should be at least accepted as a higher type of redemption or a curing power, which must be accepted and those who can be cured by that, must be given a chance and there should be no barrier about it.
Warren: What is this parasympathetic in fact, if it is described in medical science as the thing that balances, brings everything in back into balance.
Shri Mataji: It depends on, it depends on. It is actually the evolutionary process. You see, parasympathetic works at different levels of our evolution. Say, at the stage when you are matter, it organizes you in the periodic tables. Who does that organization? Is parasympathetic. Then, when you rise higher as an animal, then it gives you the understanding of eating food, seeking food by which animals seek food. Then as it rises higher it gives you another feeling of protection, you seek protection. Animals also seek protections. That’s how the evolution goes on – by giving these feelings within us or we can say as the parasympathetic starts manifesting higher and higher, the seeking starts becoming higher and higher. Then comes up to the human state, where people seek food, protection. Then when they achieve that, they seek power, they seek money, they seek possessions, they seek possession of other people, which is sometimes called as love. They seek all kinds of such things, but still their seeking is not finished, still they are seeking. Then the same parasympathetic creates an urge within us that we have to seek something higher. This last feeling after human stage is to be manifested, and for that there is a residual force placed within us called as ‘Kundalini’, which is actually the power of desire within us, which has manifested everything. But still it is residual, because it is not yet manifested itself. Because this is the power of desire to be one with the Divine vital force. And that’s why it rests in the sacrum bone – ‘sacrum’ meaning ‘sacred’, so people knew about it. And then when this force rises through the various centers and pierces through the fontanel bone area, you actually get the cool-breeze coming out of your head. For that you don’t need any medical science, any laboratory, just put your hand on top of such a person and you get the cool-breeze coming out of such a person. Not only that, but that person himself feels the cool-breeze coming out of his head. And after some time he feels it coming out of his own hands. Then he tries to use it. When he uses that, he finds that, this is the power that works out all the cures.
So one has to realize and accept that at the stage of the human level you cannot achieve the fourth dimension. You have to become something more. And this is the thing where the people who want to cheat you for money have used, that what you become, is a possessed person. They brainwash you; you become a different person. They put some possessions in you, you become possessed and you think that you have already being something different. But to be different is not the point, to be higher is to be seen. And higher means the one, who has full control over himself; who is completely relaxed, who is at peace, who is compassionate and who is a higher personality. Anybody, who is physically fit, by no chance is a very evolved person or who has got the fourth dimension. On the contrary, they also come to Me and ask Me, “Mother, give us peace”.
Warren: If sympathetic is a case of living in extremes and parasympathetic is a case of living in balance.
Shri Mataji: But you see what I said is that it is parasympathetic in totality, say in one word, see you must make it clear cut that it does give balance at a point, you see. Balance is a result of trial and error, is a result. How do you get on to a bicycle? First you make mistakes, you wobble, then you fall down, then you’ll learn. You can talk to them. If you have to say that physical wellbeing is not the end of it.
Hello, Shridevi! Shridevi, how are you? Shridevi, are you all right? How are you feeling today? Today you are not crying at all.
(Trying to lift her up.) This is the cool breeze coming out. Much better? I worked on her last night. Aah!
Hello Shridevi! (A child is crying)
No! No! Not to cry.
Still a little bit … Is it coming?
H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi