Milan/Rome Events, Conversations, Interview

Rome (Italy)

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1984-09-17, Milan/Rome Events, Conversations

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Shri Mataji: “Now, it’s too loud”.

Yogi: “Shri Mataji take to Milan Her message. This is the title, the great….”.

Shri Mataji: “I didn’t hear, again;”

Yogi: Shri Mataji take to Milan Her message, and the title, the big title is – “The Great Mother leads to discover the seed of the Spirit”.

Shri Mataji: The seat of the…

Yogi: The seed, Seed, seed.

Second Yogi: The seed.

Shri Mataji: The seed…lead, lead.

Yogi: is leading? Is leading us to discover the seed of the Spirit. This is fundamentally a call for a man of today, because he has to discover the Spirit within, and this mostly is the message of Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, that She gave to the person She met.

And also She has a great disponibility on helping him to reach the Self-Realization and teaching him the way to enter in connection with the Divine. And get from that the vital energy. And yesterday She brought Her message to the people in Milan, in that meeting in the “Sala de Congressi”, of the Provincia.

The rationality has led the men too far away and he forgot his own inner spirituality and his natural tendency for the ascent, that’s what Shri Mataji said. But the most of all in the Western World, we have always neglected the knowledge of the roots and we gave the privilege of the knowledge of the trees.

And this has grown too far, and risk to get destroyed without any roots. Any one of us has got within the seed of the Spirit, which is the Kundalini. Which is a source of a vital energy without any limit, and very often we are not aware of this? So my mission in the world is that of awake that energy,

wake that fire in the Self of the men. so he can reach the Self-Realization and the complete integration between body and Spirit. And this leads us in a state of well-being psychical and physical, in a positive behaviour and a positive attitude in front of the life.

The mission of Shri Mataji started in 1970, She was born in India from the Imperial Dynasty of the Shalivahans, She studied medicine and psychology, and She is the wife of the General Secretary for the Maritime Affairs in the ONU (United Nations).

After teaching in India, where She is very famous as The Great Mother, She takes to Iran Her message and Europe, America and Australia. She gives Her job (Work), you can say, without any money, because as She says with a great smile, God does not understand money.

She is a very extraordinary woman and we can add we can not be not fascinated by Her simplicity, strength, intuitive capacity and coherence. Those who have been realized by Shri Mataji, themselves are on disposal to bring this message to the others. And also here in Milan is growing now,

in Piazza “Sant Eustorgio” a new centre for meetings for those who like to have this experience. Cristina Retlizz.

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Shri Mataji: Now, it is so evident that in Milano there are people who are of a very high calibre. I’ve never had such a program anywhere in the whole of Europe, or even in England or America. So the Sahaja Yogis of Milano especially have a great responsibility. So three basic things you must remember, first, that you have to be alright. If you find anything wrong with you, or if your leader says that this is wrong with you do not feel bad try to correct it, because it is all outside you are the Spirit. That means you have to be alright in your sensitivity, in your vibrations, in your Realization. And once you are alright yourself you will be amazed that you will enjoy Sahaja Yoga. And you won’t have to (laughter)(What is this, all right seat down. you don’t sit on the ground, sit on that, please. So sweet!) But you have to be so good that compared to other people, you should know about vibrations, you must be sensitive, You should know it mentally what Sahaja Yoga is, it should not be that if somebody asks you a question, you say alright go and ask to other. you should all train up yourself, educate yourself completely! So you form an inner circle which knows each and everything about Sahaja Yoga, for any problem you have got my tapes, any problem you write to me, anybody has any questions you write to me, we can organize, we can manage it. Now you should be in complete collectivity, despite the fact you will know quite a lot about Sahaja Yoga, everybody will be expert but now as Dulio is the leader here, You all have to be in a way coordination with him completely, understanding him, being one with him. and not to find his faults, not to find something wrong with him, because I know what is he. I know each and every moment how he is. As soon as I’ll find something very wrong with him, I’ll correct him. You don’t bother your heads about it. In the presence of others, you should look like one body. You should support each other and don’t support other people because they are negative and the negativity will jump on you. For example, some people may look very miserable, unhappy or something like that, don’t sympathize. Not does anyone tries to dominate you or dominate him, you all stand by it. So collectively you must meditate, collectively you must meditate, that’s very important. Also individually as I’ve told you before. Every day you must meditate. About 15 to 20 minutes. Every day, just as you eat your food. First use your left side, try to see your left side how it is. Now for the left side, whether the left side is alright or not, what do you do, you put your left hand towards the photograph and right hand on the Mother Earth. And to find out the right side if it is alright or not put your right hand towards the light, I’m sorry, left hand towards the light when you are finding out the left hand and put your right hand on the Mother Earth, with a light, left hand. Vibrations are melting out and they melt, vibrations. Then they emit heat. What you call potential heat is emitted when they are melting. Yogi: This fellow, Carlo, asks about the heat, about the fire, because someone said that the fire, the heat is good and we say actually it’s a kind of fire… Shri Mataji: “Cool fire”. Yogi: as a cool fire, it doesn’t burn, it’s refreshing fire.

Shri Mataji: It’s a cool fire, it is a fire which is absolutely cool but now you see when the vibrations are just like what you call the ice, so when ice melts you see it emits heat, latent heat it is called. In the same way they emit heat, when they melt. See now…(inaudible)…but vibrations are tremendous. Yogi: Where do you prefer now? Where I have to rub? Here? Shri Mataji: Rub it all over, it is. You are alright, little bit of Nabi, you have a little problem here, you see just Right Nabi, otherwise, you are alright. You had Left Nabi, but now no more. We have a nice time, having lunch together (Inaudible). But this country requires now Sahaja Yoga very much, the way we were discussing, you see the kind of violence and wrong things people are doing, see, it requires peace, it’s very important to have peace. Then we don’t know what happened about that case. Yogi: Which case Shri Mataji? Shri Mataji: That Mafia and Vatican, what happened? Yogi: There is still an enquiry going on, but nothing possible… Shri Mataji: Till one year have passed! Yogie: Yeah, and maybe ten more years will pass but (laughing) nothing happened, you know. Shri Mataji: Who is doing the inquiry? Yogi: I don’t know. Shri Mataji: The police. Yogi: The police, with Scotland Yard. Shri Mataji: The Government is entrusted or not? Yogi: Government is entrusted but, I mean I think there are some people involved in that case, so, as usual they don’t have any interest in appearing and make dust on that. Shri Mataji: So, I do think that even Switzerland will be involved in this very badly. Yogi: I think so, because, I mean, all This black money coming from Italy is going into those banks in Switzerland and Luxembourg. And this fellow from the P2, Gelli, the one of the Masonry. Shri Mataji: Massonery, ha? Yogi: Yeah, they don’t know where it is, they say in Paraguay, Licio Gelli. Shri Mataji: He was Italian. Yogi: He is the great master of the Masonry of that sect P2. Shri Mataji: But do you know, the owners of the Swiss Bank mostly are Masonry? The Swiss Bank started by Masonic Lodge. Yogi: really? Shri Mataji: You don’t know? Yogi: No I didn’t know. Shri Mataji: Masonic Lodge started this idea. Yogi: My goodness. 2nd Yogi: Yes, all these Rothschild, these people (inaudible), they are all Masons. Shri Mataji: This is told to me by Arnoux, that they are all relations and this Masonic Lodge is the real thing they (inaudible). Yogi: Yes, there are many different Masonic Lodges, but this one in particular, The P2, is the worst. The worst, because they have very domination oriented attitude. Shri Mataji: I mean you have another one here, in Italy. Yogi: Yes, we have the classical Massonery, which is recognized by the Government, or whatsoever. Shri Mataji: But they are just the same. Yogie: And inside of that there is another one called P2, it was, it seems very bad Shri Mataji: inner circle… Yogi: and looking for the power and looking to dominate all this field. Shri Mataji: And the head of that was this fellow. Yogi: Yes.. Yogini: He was the brain of that. Yogi: And they found a list of thousand people, very important people all involved in that…Shri Mataji: in Italy…Yogi: yes, in Italy. 2nd Yogi: And a minister too, Mother, was involved, (Inaudible) of the Government now. Shri Maaji: is he still a minister? Yogi: Yes (Inaudible) is he still a minister now? I mean it is pretty Italian (laughter) He was in jail in Switzerland…Shri Mataji: General? Yogi: No, he was in jail, jail. they put him in jail in Switzerland, this chief, and then he escaped from Switzerland. Shri Mataji: When was he in jail? Yogi: also the other one. 2nd Yogi: Last year Mother, he was in Jail. Shri Mataji: Because of this. Yogi: Because of this. But you know he has so much power in Switzerland, that he escaped. Shri Mataji: And now he is the minister. Yogi: No. no. Gelli, the chief. Shri Mataji: He ran away. Yogi: he ran away. No one knows where he is. Yogini: He has disappeared somewhere, maybe in South America. And he is publishing memorials, he is publishing things through his own lawyer. Shri Mataji: And no one knows actually where he is. Yogini: No, course Shri Mataji. He is very powerful. Very, very powerful. He accumulated lots of money, lots of power, also corrupting all politicians, members of the Government, and all top people, the people that have power in Italy. Shri Mataji: What is his name? Yogini: Licio Gelli. Shri Mataji: Licio? Yogini: Yes Shri Mataji, Gelli. Shri Mataji: Gelli…Yogini: Yes, like “Gelli”. Shri Mataji: “Licio Gelli”. Yogi: “G”, “E”, double “L”, “I”, “Gelli”. Shri Mataji: Must be the jelly of litchis (laughter) Yogi: Do you know (Inaudible name) the Bolivian one, he was a masonic. He was a masonry. He said there are many, many kinds of masonry, many leagues and lodges, usually, masonic is just an esoteric that looks for the Spirit, looks for God and sometimes they look for political power but usually in Italy all the masonic look just for Spirit and for God. And in fact he was masonic. Shri Mataji: All over the world masonic people are very funny, in India also. They have secret meetings and they help each other, it’s a horrible organization. Yogi: Ana was in masonry. Shri Mataji: You were? And what do they do? Yogi: She said she has nothing to do with Licio Gelli. Yogi: (Yogini Name) Mother said if you could ask her, what do they do. Yogi: Every week, they meet all together to do a ritual, a ritual meditation. They do meditation as a ritual and they use symbolism to come to the absolute, to come to Divine, to come to God, through the Symbolism. Shri Mataji: They become boots. Yogi: And Savie said that they use all the symbols that we use in Sahaja Yoga and all the numbers, the seven, the twenty-one, all these things they use. Shri Mataji: Really? Yogi: Yes. They said that the masonry started Esoteric…Esoterism starts from the Egyptian, from the Ancient Egyptian religion, and that was a very symbolic religion, so they try to come to God through the symbolism. Shri Mataji: It’s like tantric. Without Realization, nothing has meaning, without the connection, if you move without the connection, if you move the telephone it gets spoiled. So without the connection, if you do anything like that, then your instrument is spoiled. You go in the wrong direction. Yogi: They understood that. When they entered in Sahaja Yoga they understood that, they have understood that. Shri Mataji: There is one book I read, this Sherlock Holmes. He was just imaginary. But in his book, he has was described the Masonic Lodge, as very secretive and criminal by nature. He has described. I was amazed, he describes so many things there, of course Sherlock Holmes is a fictitious name, but Sherlock Holmes writes about Masonic lodge in the book. Really surprising! Yogi: Savier said that there are so many, but so many Massonery in all Italy, it is an incredible number, we can’t imagine it. and they are centre powered and a lot of different lodges, masonic lodges. and every lodge is quite independent and can choose the kind of meditation, the kind of way to follow. Shri Mataji: But Sahaja Yoga will change them. Once they take to Sahaja Yoga they will realize, don’t you think so? Yogi translating what Ana says: They invited a lot of Masonry, of really true seekers, masonry, and yesterday a lot of them came to see you Mother and it is true, also today I saw two of them, of this Massonery at Santa Place. Today they came. Savier has invited them. And because they are looking for Truth. Shri Mataji: In which place did you see them? Yogi: This morning, in the Hall of (Inaudible). At that meeting. Shri Mataji: Really? Yogi: Yes, it was two-three of them. And also the wife of Savier was to Indian Massonery, the one You treated this morning, the sad one. She was doing masonry. 2nd Yogi: Aha, that’s it! Yogi: Every week they meet to… Shri Mataji: Every day? Yogi: Every week. Shri Mataji: That’s very bad. You see, I have seen you should do everything to the extremes, without connection you get into problems, anything. Now there is a cult, not cult but cast who believe in Shiva, and they pray to Shiva, they make the Shiva linga on the hand and keeping on the hand they worship. They fast on Shivaratri and they put a linga here, and all of them die of a heart attack. Yogini: Here is our expert, Shri Mataji. (laughter) Yogi: He can tell you everything about it. All details about Masonry. he is the expert. he can tell you all the details about Masonry, he knows everything about it. 2nd Yogi: he can tell you all the details. Shri Mataji: Alright, Alright. Tell me! Yogi: I entered into Massonery eight years ago, just because I was reading a book about Chakras, Kundalini, Ida and Pingala. of course from Oriental point of view.

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Yogi: Similar to do that was the Masonry. They explain that in the first degree you work in the Ida and the second degree in the Pingala and in the third degree in Sushumna. Shri Mataji: They talk of Kundalini in Masonry? Yogi: Of course. The Ida they call in another… The words are different. They utilize not the Sanscrit but they utilize the Hebrew. Shri Mataji: But they talk of Kundalini? Yogi: Course. The Kundalini, the Ida, the Pingala, all these things. Shri Mataji: Must be this Annie Besant, she must have brought it. Yogi: It’s much older than that Shri Mataji. Shri Mataji: (Inaudible). Yogi: Massonery, they…we studied that it has started, originally from the time of Ancient Egypt, in Egypt, many thousand years ago. Shri Mataji: But this is a new thing. Yogi: Now they call it new because they are all lodges linked together. In England in the 17th century, in England they decided just to unify these different, they were not called as Massonery, they were called Carbonari were called the Templars, the constructors of cathedrals, in Europa, for instance, the most important cathedrals (inaudible). These people have been killed by the Catholic Church during the Middle Age, for instance Giordano Bruno was just burnt because he played with fire. Giordano Bruno was one of our greatest philosophers of the Middle Ages. 2nd Yogi: He is realized Shri Mataji. Shri Mataji: what year? Yogini: Sorry Mother, would you like some chicken soup? Shri Mataji: Alright! Yogini: And would you like to eat in Your room? Shri Mataji: I can eat here. Yogini: OK. Shri Mataji: No problem. Yogi: But, Masonry of course will never give you the Realization, they never say that, they say just that they give Initiation. It is a Preparation for Realization. It means you start knowing the Spiritual things in a way not mystical of course, laic, it means not religious, just to know the laws of the universe. 2nd Yogi: But I think the attitude is completely different, in the meaning that they want to have the knowledge but something like very particular, something very exclusive. Shri Mataji: Academic. Yogini: They want power. Yogi: In the sense of domination. Shri Mataji: Deep secretive. Yogi: Yes, after it becomes that, but usually it’s very difficult to become a mason. They just want to know why you want to be Initiated in this kind of knowledge but are these people knowledgeable? Because they have just symbols, Ida, Pingala, Sushumna, the seven levels, the four elements (inaudible) Shri Mataji: Really? Yogi: You make initialization for each of the individuals, you must pass the proofs, find proofs, waterproofs, all these kinds of things to be in. Then usually it usually starts, if you are really a person that closed-minded, you start looking around that this universe really is well organized. Of course maybe you can develop some siddhis, some powers and then… Shri Mataji: That’s are of Supra conscious. Yogi: Yes, but now in this century the Masonry are people who are going just for economic power, to be with very important people, to have these kinds of siddhis. Shri Mataji: It’s a liaison office. Yogi: Yes, they are VIP. At the beginning was and still, the rituals, the symbols, and all this knowledge are from Ancient Egypt. It has good things of course. But I knew that there are many, many people now in Occidental countries who are entering just for power. Not spiritual power. Shri Mataji: what power-political. Yogi: political, material power. In Italy has been a big case, well-known, P2. Shri Mataji: What sort? Yogi: I think at the beginning this could be a good thing, I mean all these philosophers were looking for the Truth, but they couldn’t look outside the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church was so strong, I mean during the Middle Age. For this reason, they had to hide themselves, they had to do everything secretly, because of the persecutions, they maintained this form of secret. But perhaps the base is quite right because they were seeking, seekers of the Truth. 2nd Yogi: Are seekers, not all, not all people of course. Not all the people that got into Massonery are true seekers, no. Shri Mataji: But I think that this idea of chakras and knowledge must have come by Annie Besant because she tried some tricks like these with the Theosophical Society, Annie Besant. Yogi: Annie Besant, yes. Shri Mataji: And what happened, That when you try to meditate through your sympathetic nervous system, a sympathetic nervous system is that Left and Right and the chakras, so you enter through these and pass over the chakras and pass out. Attention goes out. Of course you get problems after that, she had a very bad life, very hot-tempered woman. But while going down this, what happens? That you can see the chakras, you can see the color of the chakra, because they are going around it but not from inside, you see. By your Kundalini has come out from your inside absolutely. So you don’t see anything. Yogi: I said Mother, have read and know theoretically all about chakras seven years ago, but this is the first time I start feeling it. Shri Mataji: So it passes through that. But what happens? These people use to go from outside, see the size of the chakra, see the colour of the chakra, all these…But they did not know how to penetrate. You see that they are going around the thing. But from inside you do. Because if you do anything like that in extremes. You develop the supraconscious powers, by which you can go around the chakras and come. Like in Bolivia or Peru or another place we can say…Yogi: Columbia…Shri Mataji: Colombia, we can say, Columbia also. They used to take a kind of a drug long time back, a drug. That drug used to make them supraconscious, it was something like LSD. And they used to go to the Right side they used to see all the things, they could see all the Gods, Indra and this and that, they even saw Garuda, and they saw even Vishnu coming on the Garuda. That’s why in Columbia they use the Condor as their emblem. This is seeing, but seeing is not being. Can you tell them? (Yogi translates in Italian) They are finding it difficult. Yogi: I have read Annie Besant, I know Annie Besant.

Shri Mataji: Very hot-tempered woman. (Yogis speak in Italian) Shri Mataji: So much you have caught, you feel in your hands now the vibrations. Yogi: In Bolivia, at Ganesha Puja use to play the songs of the mountains. Shri Mataji: What did I? Yogi: In Ganesha Puja you speak that as Realized Souls we should see the mountains, see the Divinity, give flowers, respect not climb. No? Shri Mataji: (Inaudible) Yogi: In all the countries, in Bolivia, in the hights of the Andes, all Andios, the local people, when they are forced to go, to climb a mountain or to be at the top of a little mountain, they all take stones and put them to be higher always than themselves, like to say: I will be never higher than you.

Shri Mataji: Climb. Yogi: And this is (Inaudible) if you see in the Andes (inaudible) top of the mountains have a lot of stones. Shri Mataji: What is it? On top of the mountain? Yogi: They put a lot of stones, just in respect of the mountains (Inaudible) Yogi: So that no person’s body will be higher than the highest point of the earth. They respect the mountain in the sense of the Divinity. Shri Mataji: We never believe in climbing them. Never. If we are to cross the mountain we use the… what you call like we have Bolan pass. passes. Yogi: Yes, Mother. Shri Mataji: Pass through. but we do never go and climb, this is something funny.

We don’t do. Yogi: It was the same in Nepal, where there are a lot of sacred mountains as Amadablam, there are a lot of them. And nobody can climb it, nobody even now, because they are sacred. Nobody can go. Shri Mataji: They don’t want to do it. Yogi: No no, not at all. But not only that they don’t do but they don’t permit to anybody to go up this mountain. The Westerners can not go up. As Amadablam is a sacred mountain, nobody can go up.

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Yogini: Shri Mataji what is Kundalini? Shri Mataji: Kundalini is the power within us of true desire, all other desires are false because they do not give us satisfaction. Yogini: Shri Mataji can it be dangerous to awaken Kundalini without spiritual culture and spiritual education? Shri Mataji: Not at all, not at all, because Kundalini is your own Mother, it’s an individual Mother and she takes all the care when she rises and awakens herself. Those people who do not have a pure life have no authority from God, they should not rise these things. Yogini: Shri Mataji, he is asking if everybody can practice Sahaja Yoga. Shri Mataji: It is meant for everybody, everybody may not practice but it’s meant for everyone. Yogini: He is saying that now he feels not at ease, he feels a little embarrassed and he would like to know if You also feel a little embarrassed in front of a big mass of people, many people together. Shri Mataji: Not at all, I don’t feel embarrassed… (Laughing) from my childhood. Yogini: He said that a few days ago a friend of his that is a Sahaja Yogi, Placido Scandura, said that when somebody is in Your presence, they feel something, some cool breeze, some cool wind around them. And so he says that in this present moment he is feeling this breeze, this cool wind and he is asking what is this, what’s happening to him now. Shri Mataji: Now, at this time all of those who are watching Me also they can feel it if they put their hands towards Me, just now, while on top, and if he is feeling, I have explained – first you tell them to put the hands towards Me like this, so that let them also feel and I will tell him what it is.

Yogini: He would like to touch Your hand, Shri Mataji. Shri Mataji: Yes. You feel the energy flowing through you and I’m touching you. When I’m touching you, you feel the energy flowing into you. And also you will not have any thoughts in your mind, you can watch Me without thinking, you can do that now. And you’ll feel the joy, there is no thought in his mind. Because the Spirit is the source of joy. And what you are feeling is the All-Pervading Power of God’s Love, which is very subtle. Yogini: Shri Mataji, he is asking what do you think about love? Shri Mataji: Love is, love is the source of everything and God’s love is such like it does not get attached to anything, it is like the sap of the tree, which goes to the whole tree, nourishes the whole tree and goes back. If this sap gets attached to any part of the tree then the whole tree will be dead. Yogini: The question is this: “Did you ever succeed in making bad men to become good at least for one hour?”

Shri Mataji: “He is permanently alright. He becomes permanently alright, thousands and one, they told me that they were very bad people, they were sinful, that themselves confessed or somebody else told me, they all have become beautiful people.” Yogini: “Shri Mataji, we told to the people who are looking at TV to put the hands towards You and to watch you and to be in peace, then we give the…” Shri Mataji: Yes, and then they should come to your centre, to know what it is, how to manoeuvre it, how to become your own masters and how to grow into a huge, big tree which can give the Realization to others also. Yogini: Shri Mataji since how many years you have this power of awakening Kundalini? Shri Mataji: I had this one from the very early childhood but I did not know how to do it a mass, because I didn’t know what human beings were suffering from. So I had to study them for some years and from 1970 I started my work of giving a mass Realization.

Yogini: Shri Mataji he would like to know from you if this interview, if You are satisfied with his interview. Shri Mataji: Of course, very much, very much. Thank you very much! Thank you very much!

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Interviewer: The Childhood is suffering very much, because they… Shri Mataji: And there is an attack on innocence, actually so many things they are doing to children which nobody could even think of it, absolutely horrible things. Interviewer: I am sure that some… they can destroy some, but most of them are so strong.

They know what is good and what is bad, they know. Shri Mataji: They know definitely and they will come out. After 10 years we’ll see that we’ll have a big army of… Interviewer: No, they will not fight… Shri Mataji: No, no, army means not necessarily with swords, with hands we can fight (Laughter). You have to fight the evil, evil has to be fought. We have to fight, otherwise it can never subside. You don’t fight with swords. Interviewer: But is there is a possibility for the evil to win? I don’t think so. Shri Mataji: They never win. Interviewer: Never. Shri Mataji: They never win. It harms, it tortures the children, it tortures innocent people, it is an attack on innocence you see, attack on it. Because innocence they are afraid of. Innocence is a powerful thing so they are afraid of innocence. Interviewer: I wanted to write, that day I wanted to make an article about these miracles of these new people, these new generation that is coming and I wrote it and I sent it for the Child’s year in the world, when celebrating the childhood, and my manager said no, we don’t publish that. That was so, I can not understand, because it was a good article, all the people, all the stuff said that it was a very good article, new thinking written with heart, with intelligence, with experience and he said no. So I understood that they do not want the innocence, they are frightened. Shri Mataji: Newspapers only want to write something sensational, horrifying. Anything good they don’t want to write. Interviewer: They do not want. Therefore I don’t like anymore to write for my paper. Shri Mataji: You’ll have another newspaper of your own now, giving them good messages. Interviewer: Very well. Shri Mataji: But tell them about peace and love! Interviewer: But these papers, they are read by people they know already that, they… Shri Mataji: It is changed. Now many nice people are coming to Sahaja Yoga. Now the Secretary-General of UNESCO, the director of UNESCO, the president of this Hague Court, World High Court, such people start coming in, you see? Then we can change. Interviewer: Yes, it must be powerful people, because they have the… Shri Mataji: They have the control. Interviewer: The control of the situation. Shri Mataji: Among them the good people will start coming. And then we’ll do, so things will change, don’t you worry! Interviewer: I want to speak, in some days I will meet Bertini and I will speak about you. Shri Mataji: Bertini? Yogi: Bertini is the president of the Republic, Italian Republic. Shri Mataji: Oh, please do! Please do because he has been very kind to give us this place free, he gave us this hall free in Milan. They gave us, the Government. This new Government is very sensible.

And they put our advertisement. Miracles are happening. (Laughter) Not only, they printed my advertisements, put everywhere my photographs just seeing the photographs on these. They themselves printed them. yes, and my photograph, they signed there. All over they put it themselves. Yogi: Yes, it’s a miracle! Shri Mataji: This is happening, people are changing, you know! Yogi: She said that God uses also stupid people for His own goals. (Laughter) Shri Mataji: But you see now, because they see now that Fundamentalism is so wrong, if you become fundamentalist, if you become closed-minded, then you will become like (Inaudible). See, so it’s all coming into their heads, even the Muslims are seeing a point. In Algeria, we have five hundred Sahaja Yogis. Interviewer: I think what it’s good of this time is that everybody is what he is, it appears what he is. There is no hypocrisy. there is mask anymore, no mask. Everybody is what he is. Shri Mataji: What he is he tries to show that he is that. I saw clearly and also the whole happening is such that he is exposed, they are all exposed. Do you see the point? Interviewer: Yes. Shri Mataji: Even all the fake gurus, I talked about them by name one, two, three, four, about 1970. And none of them… Interviewer: Disappeared. Shri Mataji: Disappeared, and none of them prosecuted Me. They disappeared.

Interviewer: It’s the time of Truth. Shri Mataji: The time of Truth, absolutely. Interviewer: That’s very interesting. Shri Mataji: You see, I will tell you, there were some cases on our Sahaja Yogis also, unnecessarily false cases, everything dropped out. Interviewer: They disappeared, yes. Very strange, that’s something very great, magnificent, it’s coming. Shri Mataji: And it is attacked also. They attack also but they fall out, because it is so magnificent. See the power is so much of innocence that it just neutralizes everything. You shouldn’t worry, we are going to win over, victory is for us! (Laughter) Interviewer: I am so happy today.

Shri Mataji: And all these things will turn back because after Realization you can give vibrations to the trees, you can give vibrations to these things and they again are coming back to life, so no need to worry, all imbalances will cure. Imbalances will be cured. We can give back to the nature now, the time has come to give back to the nature. Interviewer: In June I was a candidate to the ……

Shri Mataji: I know that. I know candidate. Interviewer: Everybody spoke about politics and I spoke of nature, of trees, of the air and all people didn’t look anymore to the others, they all applauded to me, this because people love …, now people love nature, they know that there is a big danger about the destruction of nature. Only the people who govern, they don’t understand. They saw that I spoke and people listened to me, they tried to … Shri Mataji: To shut down. Interviewer: Yes. They paid. Shri Mataji: You see how long they can go on, they will be alright, these are all very old, old bureaucrats. They’ll change. They will all change. Interviewer: The last thing I want to tell You that I don’t want to keep You all for me, I want but there are others, many. Don’t you think, You remember the Sistine Chapel, Michelangelo? Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. Interviewer: There are, that God very big and serious…very far.

Shri Mataji: Mother, Father? Interviewer: No, no. Christ. They go down, they fall down or…and the pure soul (inaudible). Shri Mataji: That’s what it is. (all laughing) Interviewer: Oh what a day, what a day, my god! Shri Mataji: This is tremendous, this is tremendous! Interviewer: And we, we are the angels. Shri Mataji: Yes, yes it’s true! these are the selected ones and you are among them. Absolutely that, it is. But the way they show Christ, you see, Michaelangelo was a realized soul so he showed him as a powerful man. And then these Popes and all that they show him to be bones, skeleton. Because they want to make him look miserable. How you can have Christ that miserable who had to carry a cross? These Popes cannot carry the cross. Interviewer: They fear him, therefore they try to make it….Shri Mataji: No, they want to tell people that you must suffer. They, all these people are saying that you must suffer. And they show Christ suffer so you suffer. But because Christ has suffered we don’t have to suffer at all. Interviewer: Most beautiful thing I’ve heard about you. Because we were all convinced that we must suffer. Shri Mataji: Why? Then what about Christ? No, no but when Christ, see, settled down here and if you turn it round He gets awakened. That’s a screw, you see? He just gets awakened. Little lower, see? Now you can feel it. See that’s a soft bone here, it’s down, can you see? It’s going down like a child. Interviewer: Yes. Shri Mataji: That’s it! He sucks in! He sucks in all our ego, all our karmas, our sins, everything He sucks in. You don’t have to suffer. And not to be guilty at all. Terrible Swadistana. She is alright! She’s been thinking too much. Interviewer: I must, for earning my (Inaudible).

Shri Mataji: Now you’ll get the inspiration. Now you’ll get the inspiration. And whatever you write they’ll have to accept you. Interviewer: My God! Interviewer: I am old you know, I’m not young anymore. I told you in the morning I was to (Inaudible), I told to the General Secretary I am becoming ugly, you must let me speak on the television before I am old and ugly. I have no time anymore. Shri Mataji: You look much younger now, don’t you worry! What is your age? Shri Mataji: I am 61. Interviewer: No, don’t ask me, please! Don’t ask me!

Shri Mataji: I’m not asking you, but I am 62, I will be 62. Interviewer: I don’t answer, because there are too many people, I do not want them to know. I will tell you in private. Shri Mataji: You look much younger, don’t you worry. Interviewer: I need to appear young because I want still to fight, and they don’t listen, old people they are put inside. Shri Mataji: We should give her some ghee, as we saw she has Hamsa very hot. See Hamsa and Vishuddhi and she will be alright. These two Chakras are. Shri Mataji: If these two are cured, you will be very different. We did this to this gentleman, Carlos. Interviewer: You’ve just arrived and the next moment I found myself to the table, like dogs bit the dogs. Shri Mataji: what? Yogi: She says that You’ve arrived at the right time that she was under a table like a dog, bit dog, you know…Oh my God, I’m a poor person, everybody helped me and what they do in the life… Shri Mataji: No, no, they are not the people who will appreciate anyone. They can not appreciate good, that’s the point. Interviewer: Now I want to return under the table, because I am ashamed of people. Shri Mataji: They are all your brothers and sisters, younger to you and you should feel happy, they are all your own, they are all your own, you should see them. And all over the world you have so many brothers and sisters. Interviewer: I’ve always been solitaire, always alone, all the life long.

Shri Mataji: Now you’ll have such a big company. Interviewer: Wonderful! I thought that was my destiny to be always alone, I said that I have to fight alone, I know that Christ and God, they don’t leave alone.

Shri Mataji: No, you will find all of them fighting with you for the same thing. We are all doing the same thing. We are never left alone. But we do it at a higher level, so everything works out (Inaudible). So all the blessings come down. It works in the politics, in economics, in psychology, everything it works into but let it come from the top. Interviewer: I have to grow. And for having this, one must grow. Shri Mataji: Yes you will grow very easily, no problem. Are you getting the cold breeze now? Interviewer: I feel more on the face. Shri Mataji: Now here you must forgive, you must forgive. Forgive everyone! You have not forgiven. Just say that! Just say! Interviewer: I forgive everybody. Shri Mataji: You say “Mother, I forgive everyone”. Yogi: “Forgive the cruel world”.

Shri Mataji: Again! Interviewer: I forgive everybody. All the cruel world. Shri Mataji: Forgive it, you just forgive God will punish them. You just punish them, you forgive them and God will punish them. Because Christ forgave those who crucified him. Interviewer: Yes but I can forgive people who hurt me but not people who hurt little things. Shri Mataji: You don’t forgive, you just forgive and God will punish them, you leave everything to God. Interviewer: Yes, that is true. Shri Mataji: What can we do ourselves?

Interviewer: I’m not sure that my heart tells what I tell, but I tell, I forgive cruel people. Shri Mataji: Alright! Interviewer: I’m not sure if my heart does, but… Shri Mataji: Again, again…Interviewer: I will try, I forget cruel people..Yogi: I forgive the cruel world. Interviewer: I forgive the cruel world. My god, it’s difficult! I forgive the cruel world. Shri Mataji: She’s got it! Interviewer: All the body. Here. Oh, it’s so cold! I forgive the cruel world. I forgive the cruel world.

Shri Mataji: Done! Alright? Interviewer: Yes, all, I feel all breeze… Shri Mataji: All over it is? Interviewer: Yes! Shri Mataji: You are sitting before me. It’s the source of the cool breeze. Alright? Interviewer: The pure source. Shri Mataji: She is all surrounded by cool breeze. Yogi: Ask Mother if “You are the one who is going to come to save the world”?. Interviewer: Are you the Holy Ghost, the Comforter? I must ask, I know you are. Shri Mataji: Yes, yes! just ask and see the vibrations. Interviewer: (asks in Italian) – “Are you the Holy Ghost? The Comforter?”. (Says in Italian) – YOU ARE the Holy Ghost, The Comforter. I KNOW! (Yogis Clapping) YOU ARE! oh my Lord, what a day…what a day…what a day…(Inaudible) Shri Mataji: it will happen very fast, telescopically now. Everything will happen telescopically. One goes beyond time, just goes beyond time. Time becomes nothing. So fast. Great. There – you are alright. Do you want sugar? Sugar is good for you, you must take sugar. I will vibrate it. Interviewer: Oh, I like sugar. Shri Mataji: Sugar you must have, I will vibrate for you and give it to you. Interviewer: Thank you. Shri Mataji to Yogis: Take this sugar I am vibrating, tell her to mix it up with her sugar and take it quite a lot. Because she has.. (Inaudible) her right…liver… Interviewer: Is that for my liver? Like that? Demerara sugar, is it not good? Demerara sugar? Yogis: She uses brown sugar Mother. Shri Mataji: No, No, brown is hot. This is cooler. Better to buy a whole sugar cane and finished. (all drink tea) Shri Mataji: I am going to vibrate in your house. I always mix it with a spoon not with the hand, with the spoon. (after some time, referencing to a yogi) – He will tell you all about it. (Inaudible talk). You see, anyone can see it very clearly (Inaudible)…Now for that, they have to lead a collective life. You live collectively or you live separately? Men Answers: I do not live in an Ashram Shri Mataji. I live in my own home, which is in South Australia near Adelaide. Shri Mataji: Why don’t you shift to the ashram for some time? Develop your collectivity is very poor the whole thing (Inaudible) just you can feel it yourself. Can you feel it? The Holiness?

They can now sit, sit. So, better go there, otherwise, this will not go. This is very bad and is not good, may develop into Ekadesha. Better go and stay with them, be humble, try to be one with that, enjoy. There is nothing like the collective joy. Alright? You try that with them, let’s see how it works out. When are you going back?

Man: I am going back in about November. Shri Mataji: So in Adelaide you write to somebody.

Adelaide, we have a good Ashram. I selected that Ashram. It is beautiful, you can get grapes there and put in there. And it would be nice, you go with your wife and say there. And I am sure it will improve. It still has to go, I saw your this thing all the time coming up. (Inaudible) It should be alright, and you will really enjoy.

Men: I must admit I haven’t noticed at all (Inaudible). Yogi: There is a person from association about Hypnosis and they invite us to give a talk there. Should we go? Shri Mataji: Oh..this is wrong… Yogi: They invite us to give a talk there. Should we go? Shri Mataji: Then you should tell them that this is wrong and be happy.

Then you go and tell them this is all wrong, this is all Bhoot. This is all, what you call them… possessions. Yogi: Alright. 2nd Yogi: Avidya, it’s all Avidya. Shri Mataji: You just tell them this all bad. (later on, referencing a to a Yogi) I am leaving sugar with him, you can take it from him. It is very funny, you can just do anything you know? This lady has asked for it. It is very funny you can just do anything you know, all justice can be done to this. (Inaudible talk) Shri Mataji: So, may God bless you all, I am going away tomorrow morning. may God bless you, may God bless you. May God bless you all. Good! Excellent day for me also!

6

Interviewer: What do you think about the present? Shri Mataji: Present times are the best times in the traditional spirituality, in these present times – I call them “the blossom time”. And many saints who are seeking God will receive their blessings. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Interviewer: …The aggression and the fear.

Shri Mataji: hmm…I don’t trust about religion. better is I will tell you that. Interviewer: Which religion do you preach? Shri Mataji: The religion is very innate within ourselves. There is nothing outside about it. I preach about the religion that is within our being, which gives us a balance. Interviewer: Why do you think the man is violent? Shri Mataji: Why the man is violent? Alright. Interviewer: Why the man is violent? Shri Mataji: The man is violent because of various reasons, he could be frustrated, he could be unhappy, he could be by nature violent. But, I say that you have to seek your spirit. When you become the spirit, the spirit is joy and such a person only gives joy. Interviewer: What do you mean by Realization? Shri Mataji: Realization means you have to be born again. That means that you are like an egg and you become like a bird. So that you become the truth, the attention becomes collective and you become the source of joy. Interviewer: What do the people need, to get this kind of Realization. Shri Mataji: They can get this Realization if they have the true desire. Because the power which is called as Kundalini, which is the reflection of the holy ghost is the true desire within us. So, if you have the true desire to become the spirit you will get it.

7

Interviewer: what do you think, why it is not very well known this kind of a Holy Ghost, the Kundalini here in the west? Shri Mataji: The reason is, the knowledge you have in the west…Interviewer: Excuse me, can you repeat that? (prolonged technical explanation…) Shri Mataji: The knowledge of the Kundalini is not very well known in the west because you have the knowledge of the tree, while India has the knowledge of the roots. that is why it is not known this side. But, in the Bible it is said that “I will appear before you like tongues of flames”, and also in the early Christian eras people knew about the centers and subtle centers. but later on it became a very organized religion so people lost touch with reality. Interviewer: Do you think that east and west can stand each other and people from here and from there can become the same person, the same human being? Shri Mataji: they can all understand each other very well if they become the spirit because spirit is the collective being and the nature of the spirit is the same. Interviewer: I am sorry, can you repeat? Shri Mataji to Assistant: you just see? I did not start with “Because”…did I start with “Because”? Assistant: No (Proceeds to repeat Mother’s words). Interviewer: May I start the recording again? Shri Mataji: People in the east and in the west are the same, they are all human beings. And they have the same kind of Chakras and all the machinery within them is the same. once they become the spirit, the spirit is the collective being. And it has the same nature in all the human beings. That’s how they will understand each other very well.

Assistant: (Repeats Mother words then translates to Italian). Interviewer: Shri Mataji: May I ask you, what do you think, why the man are afraid of dying? They have the fear of death? Afraid of dying. Shri Mataji: The people are afraid of dying because they do not know about their future. It is an unknown land into which they have to enter. Moreover, the people have a fear they might go to hell and they may be tortured. But actually if you become the spirit all sins are forgiven and you just enter into the kingdom of God. Interviewer: what do you think, what is the difference between the true Guru and false Gurus? Shri Mataji: What is the difference between the false Guru and a true Guru? Firstly, any guru who takes money from you is a false guru, to begin with. Then, a Guru who diverts your attention from spirit to other things is a false Guru, like he makes some sort of a materialization and things like that. He takes some diamonds, it is a false guru. There are some who make you jump in the air, who say that we will make you fly and all that, are false. One should only ask for Self-Realization. Interviewer: Is there any danger in Kundalini awakening? Shri Mataji: No, there is none. because she is your mother. There is no danger in Kundalini awakening because she is your mother. She is your individual mother, and how can she trouble you? Because people have a really irreligious life and un-righteous life that’s why when they try raising the kundalini they cause trouble. Interviewer: What are the advantages of achieving the Self-Realization? Shri Mataji: The advantage of Self-Realization is that you become completely integrated. You have physical perfection, mental perfection, emotional perfection and you are in complete harmony with the divine. And the divine power starts flowing through you so you become dynamic. Interviewer: What is the….(recording cuts). Shri Mataji: The divine power is the subtle power that permeates into every power, is the love and compassion of God, that is his will. And that acts like a very subtle ether in every molecule, in every human being and in everything that exists. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Shri Mataji: Material progress will definitely destroy the man. But, if it is spiritual progress it will save and construct the whole atmosphere into a beautiful land of god’s divine love. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Shri Mataji: To become pure or Self-Realized you do not have to give up anything, it is a myth. That you believe that you have these things. Actually, this myth breaks up and you get completely detached. You don’t have to give up anything when you are not attached to it. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Shri Mataji: It is very wrong to believe that you have to suffer to achieve your Self-Realization. Christ has already suffered for you, what more can you suffer? Only thing you have to awaken Christ within yourself, there is a subtle centre “Agnya Chakra”.

When the Kundalini rises she enlightens him and he sucks in all your conditioning and all your ego. And you don’t have to suffer at all, it is a very wrong idea people give you. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Shri Mataji: That we have to become the spirit. In our evolutionary process now the time has come for us to become the spirit which is our fourth dimension. Which you must achieve and that is how we can solve all the problems of this confused world. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Shri Mataji: Morality is the inner religion in human beings. These ten commandments that were given to us by Moses represent those ten valencies within us as Carbon has got four valencies we have got ten valencies and when we fall from those ten valencies then there is an imbalance and it is difficult to ascend. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Shri Mataji: The sin is to loose one of the valencies. Then, when you lose them on the right side – you get connected with some sort of aggressiveness of the right side, if you lose them on the left side – you get the slyness of the left side. You get diseases by this, you get all problems by this, but if you keep in the centre with all your ten valencies intact, respecting yourself. You will never get into trouble, and you will be very good for your ascent will be good.

And you will achieve your highest spiritual growth very fast. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Shri Mataji: To keep the balance before the Realization, one should keep a moderate life. Not to go to extremes of anything. That is how you maintain yourself in the centre. To commit sin you have to go all out to do it. But to be good you do not have to do anything about it, you are born good. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Shri Mataji: Sahaja Yoga means spontaneous union with the divine. Now, Sahaja: “Sa” means “with” and “ja” means “born”. Is natural, born with you, is your right to be in union with the divine. Yoga also means the deftness or the trick we can say of the knowledge of the divine. How to handle the Divine Power. Assistant: (translates to Italian). Shri Mataji: In the modern times we can say Sahaja Yoga has become a Maha-Yoga in a sense a great Yoga because people are getting Realization amass and it is working collectively. Assistant: (translates to Italian).

Shri Mataji: I must say it is of no use just talking about it. You should all come to Sahaja Yoga centres, get your Realization. Because that actualization that should happen. It’s no use just talking about it.