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Talk about leadership, Rahuri, Maharashtra, India, 22nd January 1985.
…and this is the place where my forefathers reigned as kings, and they had a dynasty also. Now, the other place we went to, Musolwadi, is the place where the Goddess first of all hit him with a beam, so it is called as Musolwadi. It means a beam, ‘musol’ means a ‘beam’. So this is a place where [the] Goddess has done a lot of work.
There is another place called Aradgao where he was running and he was screaming, so it’s called as arad. ‘Arad’ means ‘screaming’ (‘gao’ means village).
So the whole place is already very much vibrated because also the Nathas, the nine Nathas — we saw one Ganifnath there — but all of them lived in this area and worked very hard. The last of all, Sainath, was very near here, as you know, in Shirdi.
So this is a very, very holy place and a place of great worship where many a times the Goddess was worshipped. Rahuri itself, if you go round, you find there are nine deities sitting there. These are also created by Mother Earth. They are beautiful things. No one knows about them. You can go and have a look. There are nine of them and these represent the nine incarnations of the Goddess, or nine styles of the Goddess.
Now, in this beautiful place we are here, though it is spoiled by many things, but, as you can see, it’s very comfortable for our Spirit to be here. At this place I have seen a negativity, kind of a thing, was working out about [which] I want to tell you today again. That works out everywhere wherever there is a leadership of a person. Here Mr. Dhumal came and he got his Realisation, in Bombay, at my residence. And he came back [and] he started working it out here. His brother brought him, but his brother became quite negative to begin with, and then the negativity started working out and people started opposing him and troubling him and I had to go through a very difficult period during that time.
So now, as you are travelling, I want to tell you: don’t challenge your leaders. Because not only that it disturbs the organisation, but it gives me a physical manifestation; I suffer physically. Specially if you come and say things against the leader in my presence I feel even worse. And once it happened that somebody was talking about a leader and the whole of my back became so red that lots of blisters came in, I suffered a lot. So I beg of you not to decide about the leaders and don’t try to criticise them and take up the ego position and try to see that, “He’s like this, he’s hot tempered” or “He is this, that.” They have to be hot tempered! Because I’m not. Because I cannot be very angry, they have to protect me. As my protection, they have to be hot-tempered and they have to tell you off. And if they tell off, then you should not feel that they are bossy or they are doing these things and all that. Actually those people who are bossy only feel it, because they can’t bear that others can tell them anything. So they think that others are bossy and they are fine: that’s not so.
So the trouble is that one should understand that one has to work in this fashion. I know what the leaders are. When I find the leaders are going wrong, immediately I try to correct them. But you should not try to challenge the leaders. But this is the greatest problem I had in the West and later on I found here also, in India, it used to brew up. Whenever I went away, then it started off: the leader was challenged. As if I don’t know about the leaders, as if I don’t know anything about them, as if I am to be told, as if I am absolutely ignorant.
So you don’t have to worry. You shouldn’t worry about it. I will tell you who is the leader and how to work it out.
It sometimes, of course, happens that the leaders go off. I know that they go off. It happens that they fall a trap to a wrong person. It’s quite possible; after all they have become leaders just like you, with my special permission. But could be such a situation can come up and I want to then correct them and I always tell them that, “This is a wrong thing you have done. This is to be corrected.” But otherwise the whole administration of Sahaja Yoga is impossible. It has to work through the leaders. You shouldn’t see how they talk, what they say to you, what they work out, but do what they tell you. There is no freedom lost in that. You will see that your freedom will be maintained, respected and will be done.
On the contrary, I will say, when there is a sloppy and a mild leadership it’s just impossible. Everybody else becomes the leader. Like England, we can say, that Gavin was very, very mild and now there are so many leaders who come up, talk big, “Do this! Do that!” I’m having a big problem in England of so many mushroom like egos coming up. And they become so flippant and nonsensical, and they talk all nonsense, they start giving lectures, this, that. It’s impossible then to control. If Gavin was a strong fellow and he put them right. But he’s too good and too much of a gentleman, I think. That much of gentlemanliness is of no use in Sahaja Yoga. So if he had handled the whole situation, with that thing is all right, and would have worked out very well.
But sometimes also the leader is told to shut up, “You shut up!” And like that he goes on shutting up. Everybody joins hands and shuts up the leader and the leader becomes absolutely a cabbage — he doesn’t say anything. So this is also a very bad habit is to say, “Shut up! Don’t say anything!” I don’t like it. If somebody is talking to me, anybody who is talking to me, you shouldn’t just in front of me say, “Shut up!” to that person or pull his hand, or just punch him; and I don’t like all that, at all. That hurts me. You should never do like that.
I have seen people have a this very bad habit, “Don’t say!” “Don’t talk!” As if they are the greatest, wisest people ever born to say such a thing: is a very wrong idea and this should not be done. This should never be done in my presence, I don’t like it, it hurts me, and physically it manifests. So don’t do like this, don’t say anything, don’t do it! I know how to handle it. If somebody is very funny I can tell that person, “Now stop it!” I can do it. But you just don’t try to take over things like that.
Of course the leaders can do it, leaders, the ones who are grown up, matured people, can just tell them to keep quiet. But all the time some people have the habit of saying, “No!” and “No!” It’s bhootish, I would say. It’s really bhootish. Because they never allow me to see the reality. We must know what’s happening, what people have to say. I should know about it. There’s nothing wrong in it.
But on the contrary, they come and tell me, “Our leader is like that, our leader is like that.” That you don’t worry because my attention is most on your leaders. I do change leaders and I will change leaders in case they are wrong. But let me decide. That decision you leave it to me.
So this is another point I wanted to say about Rahuri, which I learnt a lesson here. Then another thing I found out: The villagers here are much more easily convinced, they take to Sahaja Yoga very well. And while the educated take time to take to Sahaja Yoga; naturally because they think they are very well educated! And they find it difficult to forget their education and become simpler people.
So in the same way, you will find the simple people will take to Sahaja Yoga much faster than the people who are educated; because their mind works too fast, they cannot catch the vibrations. The mind is running fast, the vibrations are running after them and it’s a big game of hide and seek going on! But doesn’t matter. Still, once that intelligent get to Sahaja Yoga, then it works even wonders. Once they get to it, they take time, no doubt. They take time, but once they take get to it then it works wonders.
So some people take [to] it easily, but they don’t work out that well; those who take with difficulty, work out better; in the sense that they can intelligently manifest it and talk to people and tell them about it.
So this is another thing one has to remember that: try to understand that through your education you have not known anything. Because you never felt vibrations, you did not even know that there was something like that existing! This is a new knowledge, absolutely a new thing. Absolutely it has nothing to do with your degrees, M.A.D. and Ph.D.s and all those things. It is something else that is existing, which you have to feel. So if you take that simple attitude it would be a better idea.
Now the fourth thing which upsets me is grouping, to form a group. That’s another very upsetting thing is to form a group. This is one group of this place or group of that place: who belongs to this place. And this grouping, once it takes place there is a gap in the collective. When there’s a grouping, say, a nose and eyes they become one group; then there’s a gap between them and the hands. So if there’s a problem in the nose, the hands will not act. So the whole activity becomes a disintegrated activity.
So one should never form a group. Those who have a habit of forming a group must be completely discouraged. They start saying against somebody, then against that one, then this that, then they form a group, the one group goes there, one group. So grouping is not allowed in Sahaja Yoga, it is malignancy. It is malignancy. If it starts working out, you become malignant. The whole group becomes malignant and it’s a very difficult problem then to put them right.
And one should not accept any sort of a sloppy or a very mild leadership also. One should accept a strong, fierce, I would say, to some extent, leadership. That will help. Because our ideas are very different from what you have had so far, that, “The leader should be pleasing to us. He should have a personality that will be extremely lovey-dovey type.” That’s not so. The leader has to be a strong, fierce personality that should make people respect him and have awe for him. But because we are so free we can pass remarks about the leader and say, “This leader is bad, that leader is bad.” But it’s not a good thing! It doesn’t help. It doesn’t help. On the contrary, as I told you, the sloppy people create horrible problems! And then you get so many egoistical people who come up. I mean a sloppy person, if there’s one sloppy person, or who has accepted such a domination, if he is there as a leader, all the rest of the people, those who come in contact with that person, also become ego-oriented. They also start behaving in such a manner that you can’t imagine. Like Gavin’s is a very good example: in his office he had arranged work for some people. Everyone who worked in his office got into this trouble, because he was so good that they picked up their ego, you see, because their superego was there, so they thought better to use your ego and that’s how the whole thing worked out. Poor fellow had to ask all of them to get out of the office. So this is an example for us and there’s nothing to feel that it is any criticism of anything. But it doesn’t work out, this system doesn’t work out. So you should not try to make an effort that you criticise them.
Now, another thing about leadership I have to tell you [is] that supposing I have appointed Christine as a leader. She is the leader of North America: then she has to take the decisions for North America. But nobody else, not even her husband should take any decisions. He should not. He should have nothing to do. He should be in the background. Whosoever is the leader should deal with the problem. This is the trouble is, if the wife is there, then the husband takes over, husband gets, then the wife. Like I should say Poona, Poona, I appointed somebody there, he was shut down and his wife took over; and the wife is a horrid stuff. I mean, I don’t know what to do with such things. It is very difficult that, if it’s a husband, it’s a husband, it’s a wife, it’s a wife. Then the wife becomes little dominating, the husband comes back and then the husband starts ruling. Then my attention is on the wife, here the husband becomes. In leadership there is nothing like husband and wife. They have nothing to do. Whosoever is the leader is to be accepted as the leader, whether he is the husband or the wife. This is one thing: in Sahaja Yoga there is no discrimination between women and men. Not that the men should always rule nor the women should rule. It is whosoever is appointed as the leader is the leader.
I must tell you these things because these little, little things make such a difference to the whole organisation that I don’t know how to tell. Because husband has no right as a leader. He’s not appointed as a leader, so he has no right as a leader. If you all understand this point that leadership is very important for me. It’s like the main organ of the body. And that leadership should not be challenged at any cost, any time.
Like Dr. Sangwe is the leader of Nasik. So he is the leader. He has to do it. It is he who decides, it is he who says. Nobody should challenge him. So we have got leaders of different places, if you have any problems about deciding who is the leader, you come and ask me.
I always appoint one person. In Italy, Gregoire, I don’t know why, he said there should be two persons. I don’t know why he said two. But I told him, “Gregoire, it’s not a wrong thing,” but he just said, “No. You must have.” And the second one was dropped out so badly, I mean he really harmed us. So just listen to me! I know, I understand.
Guido can say that, what has happened in Italy, is because they didn’t listen to me. Here we are not to please everyone. No, we are not here to take any voting or anything. We are here to do the job, and for doing the job we must take the right course, right methods. So those who think, “Oh, have three of them then!” Then, “Have five of them!” This is nonsense! For what? Just to pamper ego?
Any leader is as good as you people are, [the] only difference is my attention is on that leader. That’s why it works out better. Don’t allow your ego to dominate you. There’s nothing. What does he do? Poor man, the leader now? For example, I would say, Warren: he worked so hard, he really laboured through. And he worked so hard he got so sick. I was wondering. It’s all right for me. I am after all a Adi Shakti, so it doesn’t matter (laughter) I can be, I can be a marathon. But this fellow was working with me. I knew he’ll have to give way at a point. It’s too much. And then people start criticising Warren, I can’t understand. I mean, he is working day in and day out. Can’t they see this? Without him what would have happened to us?
I mean, those who are leaders work so hard, they do so much and then you start criticising. That’s not proper. That’s being a bit ingratitude towards them and towards me. On the contrary, I feel so much obliged to them. After all this is my job. This is I am paid for it, I can say. So I am doing this job, all right. But what about them? They are human beings, they have got their other things. I don’t have to earn money, I don’t have any problems. So why? Why bother them? They are the ones who have dedicated their lives doing so much, and then you start criticising them. It is impossible. But if he says anything to you, “Don’t do this, and don’t do that!” And sometimes it is with my consultation he does it. Which things I cannot say directly, he might say indirectly to you. So you shouldn’t challenge such things.
This is one of the things today I wanted to talk, about leadership, because this is a place where I have faced some problems of leadership. And one should understand that this is the only way Sahaja Yoga is going to work out. In the body also, as you know, it is not that the heart, which is the heart, is the complete pumping source. Now the heart’s work is to be accepted: that it is this pumping source, and it gives to all the other organs. So liver is liver, brain is brain. Brain doesn’t want to become the heart, heart doesn’t want to become the liver. Now the liver cells, if they say that, “Now we will work for the heart!” or “We’ll form a group!” then how can you do it?
So as we have got very important organs, we have got very important leaders. And I know what they are up to, I know what’s wrong with them, so you leave it to me to correct them.
All right, this is for the foreigners today. Because now we’ll be moving further and further into more difficult time, I think, because there may be little spartan living for you because you asked for it! You wanted to have a camping ground, so I have arranged a camping ground for it. So then you should not say [about] the leader “Where is he? Now call him! What have you done?” It’s all arranged by me, so don’t blame him. And enjoy yourself. And don’t try to say that it’s he who should have looked after: he’s not paid for it. He’s not paid for it. I am paid for it. They are not. In the sense [that] I am paid because I am made for that. It’s my job. I am doing it because I have to do it. And I cannot do anything else but to do this job, otherwise I won’t exist, you see.
So Mine is a different point. But if he’s doing it, then it is an obligation on me. And in a way I feel, and you all should feel, also, obliged.
May God bless you all.
Marathi section of Talk, translation into English:
Most of you know English but I would still like to tell you a few things in Marathi. If you want to progress in Sahaja Yoga you’ll still need to introspect yourself,ask yourself where did I go wrong, what am I doing wrong by Sahaja Yoga.Also what to think what faults do we have within us. But if you start to think,you are perfect,nothing wrong with me, we are the best in the world that is wrong. Those people are seriously caught up,they try to sit on the head, then some people from the same collective think we should give some importance to them,then this way all the bhoots sits on their head. Then this is the way all my work gets ruined, for example when you plant a crop, all of a sudden a pest comes there to destroy and tells I am the truth, my destruction is the way. And this way everything gets destroyed. This is how our organisation failed in many places. These bhoots and egotistical people start to raise their heads and starts to think they are great and even try to get my attention on those things, but I pay attention to the whole world, unless things get really worse I don’t realise what is happening.
But in Pune Mr.Gaikwad is the leader, I said he would be leader but his wife thinks she is the leader. I realise then he went somewhere and she (Mr.Gaikwad and his wife) starts to run the show.I never wrote a letter to him that he should go to Delhi and I had no idea until Hari told me about it (he sent me a letter about it) and you all knew it was false but you are all thinking they are all great.
Now to discuss few things amongst us that yesterday Kulkurni came for puja and he was so caught up, person like him how was he that much caught up, that’s what I’m telling you. Be careful,because this is what happens. So there was something really wrong with Puja, some pest (worm) started to eat, it means it has started to destroy Pune. So this is what happens when person becomes egotistical and sits on everyone’s head.In any case if such a person gives food ,Don’t take it.Now we have Mrs.Pradhan she is one of them. As soon as she speaks I feel that my ear has got poison in it. She is terribly caught up, her family has boots, her son has bhoots also. You will know about this, it’s good to keep these things opened. People from Pune went to her house and also from Rahuri and when they came back they were all possessed.I asked “what had happened? where did you go? They told me they went to Mrs Pradhan’s house.I had asked “what did you eat or drink,they told me they all had coffee,so I said “right now go outside and shoebeat them”. So just then Mrs.Pradhan rang up and asked,they were going to come to eat?. I told them,when they are people who are possessed you shouldn’t even drink. Whoever calls you to go and eat just check the vibration. You are all saints now,you can’t behave this way. You brought this situation upon yourself, when the vibrations start to get lost one does not realise what chakra has got caught up, people like him also got tangled up (talking about Kulkurni) and this is supposed to be Pune city of Punyas. Now here I am going to build a house in Pune, now don’t make my condition bad as well (she laughs) otherwise will have to clear all. Before you do something think 4 times.
She had gone to Delhi (Mrs.Gaikwad) and made a mess there and told all that I told her to and wrote a letter to her. Why should I tell her to go and write a letter. She has no vibration. Why did she go there. Same thing happened to Hari and the pair of them caused so much problem and mess there, mother and son. These kind of people wherever they go cause a problem, they don’t ever make the situation any better. I got a letter from Delhi that what these people did there, this was all Hari’s doing. But what I say is the person who I made a leader, his son becomes guru and his wife becomes a leader. So what is this? I made Mr.Gaikwad a leader and if he is dominated by his wife then he has no right to be leader and if he can correct his wife then he can remain as leader and son he is alright, but he will be also gone case, that’s why I am saying whoever I appoint as a leader you should respect that. Your mother said so you should accept it. Don’t think I don’t scold these people (meaning western yogis). I always tell them what mistakes they have all made but you should always accept my decisions. Now they’re saying make trustees but it is just a headache but try to be more understanding then, this boat of Sahaja Yoga has to go so far still,and now whoever is sitting on this boat is wanting to jump downwards,what am I supposed to do?
So obey your leader, if I appoint anyone as leader,accept it. Now Gaikwad I am telling even a challenge for you. Correct your wife. Don’t let her sit on a head,then things will be good (?). Don’t give any importance to her, don’t eat off her hand, let her be alright first.
Now we have Pradhan, he never has been stuck to his wife like glue but having said that, his wife is terrible. If she started to sing everyon’e vishuddhi will be caught, but she loves singing, now what to do?, even when I talk on the phone my ears hurt, so what do we do?. But Pradhan he never spoilt her of let her head rise in Sahaja Yoga. He was strict that way. I had told him I vibrationally suffer. He said “Yes Mother”I’ll see to it. Now you people went to her house and she made you coffee. Don’t say Mataji, you went but I am Mataji, you are not. Don’t compare yourself to me, I eat boots, I can even go and sit in the cremation ground. So would you do the same? So you try to argue because you went that’s why I did.This is not the way you obey me. If I told you not to go somewhere don’t go, be careful! Don’t criticise each other. If you are going to criticise,outside people.One saint does not criticize another saint. All saints love has been free and always sang the greatness of another. Saint will always praise another, also Devil will. If you are neither Devil nor saint then you start criticizing each other..
(then Shri Mataji talks again in English).