Interview, Ashram in Pichini, Guidonia Montecelio, Rome, 18 May 1985
1985-0518. The Interview was recorded in the Pichini ashram the day before the Ganesha puja 1985. It was an interview to be passed later on in a private TV
Shri Mataji: You can remove this thing.
Gregoire: I’m sorry. It all seems a bit too mysterious. Guido! So, listen, you can sit on the… So, Shri Mataji, the idea is the following: is that I would perhaps just introduce a little bit the thing, and then I would ask You the question of the theme of the relationship of motherhood and spirituality. Because this is to feed an emission of about twenty minutes that we are paying ourselves, which would be on the channels.
After that Alessandra, as asked, she will just tune in at some point to ask some questions on education and children towards the end, at the end.
Alessandra: We would like to ask You some questions on education of children in India.
Shri Mataji: (Shri Mataji’s chair edge is on some cloth) I am sorry, did I do?
Gregoire: Sorry Shri Mataji, you are sitting on … Sorry.
Shri Mataji: Is the door closed?
Gregoire: Is the door closed over there?
Shri Mataji: It’s rather cold. Put the heater. Somebody has to help Danya a little bit to bring her things down.
Yogi: You do this.
Gregoire: Well, it’s interesting to have the opportunity to talk about something so extraordinary as Sahaja Yoga. The matter of fact which fascinated me from the very beginning, is that in Sahaja Yoga there is nothing which has to be accepted which is not based on reality of experience. And everybody knows that all the inner ways to reality have been explored by various traditions.
For instance in the Tao one speaks about Yin and Yang, that is one has to discover within oneself a dimension which is complementary to the one in which we live. And being a man I always have been wondering what it would be like to discover the feminine part of myself in a spiritual sense. And Sahaja Yoga is, in a very unexpected and in a very beautiful way, providing the answer to this kind of enquiry.
It is indeed very important in the teaching of Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi to confirm that we are containing within ourselves the Yin and the Yang, that is the male and the feminine aspect.
Moreover, Shri Mataji, in Her teaching, precises that the feminine qualities are very important for our own ascent. And Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi being Herself a Woman, a Mother, a Grand Mother, She has been a Housewife, She has been knowing all the aspects of a woman’s concrete life that no one is better qualified than Her to bring to our attention what is this relationship which is so mysterious in some way between the femineity and spiritual ascent.
So perhaps, by a way of introduction, I should say that the link between femineity and spiritual ascent has to be found in motherhood. And, Shri Mataji, may I right away ask you what is the meaning of Motherhood in the spiritual ascent of a normal human being like me?
Shri Mataji: It’s absolutely Primordial. It comes from the Primordial being that we are all created out of the power of God Almighty.
As we say there is the God Almighty and there is His beloved Son and the third one, we call it as Holy Ghost. Now, nobody knows anything about the Holy Ghost, that it is the Primordial Mother who is the power of God.
Gregoire: Well, but the Primordial Mother is the power of God. God is perhaps very near, as the saints say, though for most of us, He seems sometimes to be very far.
So how do we discover this Primordial Mother as a personal reality? It’s a question which I ask a bit in a hypocritical way, because I know the answer of that.
Shri Mataji: Within us, in our being, the God Almighty is represented in our heart as the Spirit, and within us is the Primordial Mother, the Holy Ghost represented as Kundalini.
When the meeting, or the Yoga, or the union between the two actualizes – it has to happen, it’s a happening – When it actualizes, then only you can get the experience of the Divine force of the Divinity which is surrounding us. And thus you move one step forward towards God, understanding Him.
Gregoire: And I should perhaps say here that, in this experience, Shri Mataji plays a very unique role. She says so often that Sahaja Yoga is not seeing anything, is not having visions, is not understanding: Sahaja Yoga is becoming. Becoming ourselves actually. But everybody knows that in the brain. How that becoming really takes place for me was without any doubt.
The result of my first encounter with Shri Mataji. It was perhaps the first encounter of the third kind. And, Shri Mataji, how is it that just smiling at somebody you have the power to awaken their Kundalini? You have this kind of catalytical faculty to give them the key to themselves.
Shri Mataji: It’s nothing very great or fantastic, as you see every day these things happening. If you place a seed in the Mother Earth, it sprouts without any effort. The Mother Earth has got the quality, the nature of Mother Earth is such that she can spontaneously awaken any seed into life.
I have that quality within myself. Naturally, nothing great, I have it, that’s all. I have not achieved it. It’s there. So, I don’t think it’s something fantastic. But the first question you asked that, when you understand by your brain, then how is it you get it as an experience?
By brain whatever you understand, you understand through your limited mind. Which is beyond you. It’s not within. But when the experience takes place, you really evolve and your central nervous system gets a new dimension and you get a new consciousness, new awareness. Which is called as Bodha. Or in Sanskrit it’s called as ‘Vida’.
From there the word Veda has come, and from Bodha Buddha has come. The one who has got the Bodha means the feeling of the universal power of God on your central nervous system is the Bodha. It’s not what you understand through your brain, through your reading, through your discussions, but it’s a built-in process on your nervous system.
Gregoire: And then again, Shri Mataji wants that this Mother within us which is this energy of Kundalini, when She gives us our second birth – because one can be born only from the mother – She does it because She feels the great Mother in you – “La Grande Madre” – and then we also develop these qualities which are the quality of motherhood, of compassion, of patience, of gentleness.
And is it possible, Shri Mataji, that through this process one can envisage a transformation of the behavior of great number of people? So that society benefits from all this. So that is not only an individual process. Is this possible?
Shri Mataji: Of course. Because it is the epitome of your evolution, it is the evolution of all the human beings. And those who want to seek it can have a higher state of awareness in which you get complete integrated.
Where the motherhood, the fatherhood and the childhood, all these three, combine.
So, as the child you become innocent, as the mother you become compassionate, and as the father you witness.
That’s how all these three qualities just combine in you, and you become a different person where you start feeling that you are the part and parcel of the whole. And when it happens it is not a feeling of your mind, but is the feeling on your central nervous system. So that you can feel others on your fingertips.
Gregoire: So, in other words this Holy Trinity which was, I should say, rather difficult to understand of a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, now it’s getting more precise: the mother.
These they correspond to state of consciousness within ourselves. But how do we develop then the quality which Christ said we should have the quality of the child so that we can recognize the mother and the father?
Shri Mataji: It is existing within you. The child quality – the innocence is existing within you. Only some clouds have come over it. Which are all thrown aside, and you become the child.
When a person has not seen the mother, he feels lost and he thinks that he is not protected, he has nobody to look after, he weeps and cries. When he sees the mother, he recognizes that “Oh, he has the mother”. [Video interruption]
Gregoire: Actually, are spontaneous. And when we look around us it’s really the one quality that is missing. Everybody play games, I mean, everybody – many people, many people are fake, this capacity of just being like children we have lost it. I have visited, Shri Mataji, countries in the East, I was in Nepal as you know, I was in India and people were so direct, so one with what they felt in the heart, what they felt in the brain, and the way they behave. So, is it possible through Sahaja Yoga to regain spontaneity? And what is this spontaneity that we are really missing in the west?
Shri Mataji: Spontaneity comes through innocence. And innocence is a quality all the time within us. Only thing that there are some clouds which are covering it, and are not manifesting the innocence within us. But when the Kundalini rises, She wipes out all those clouds and all those hurdles, and we find the light of innocence coming through spontaneously.
Gregoire: I wish that we could have the quality to recognize these qualities when they appear. Because it is a fact that what you have given in the field of spirituality since you started in 1970 is going far beyond the level of knowledge reached even by the Holiest scriptures.
There is no comparison between what you teach and what a lot of masters teach, because what You teach is verifiable in our central nervous system. And then, how it is that people have such difficulty to recognize the novelty, the genuineness but also the tremendous importance of your message? Is it that it is too simple to be understood?
Shri Mataji: No, that’s not the point. The point is that these are the days of complex advertising, and we have no advertising like that.
It’s a very forthright understanding of reality. And it is too simple, by which people have lost their way and they cannot see something straight.
But they will come round. Because you suffer. When you go in the wrong direction, you always suffer and you come back to the right point.
Gregoire: What should one give to get one’s realization? Should one pay money? Should one register in a school? How does it happen?
Shri Mataji: Oh, it is innate within you, just like as I said the seed. How much do we pay to the Mother Earth? You don’t have to pay, you don’t have to do anything, just you have to take it from the Mother Earth, that she gives you the nourishment and your Kundalini rises.
Gregoire: Is there any reason why it should take place now and not before? Because you say it is like seeds put in the Earth which grows, and this has taken place since centuries. But this which I have been witnessing since now a couple of years, that is really thousands of people getting their Self-realization. Now this has not taken place before, so why should it take place now?
Shri Mataji: Because in the evolutionary process, this is the time. When you reach the state of the flower, then only we call it a blossom time. Maybe in the beginning there are one or two flowers. But you reach a point where there are many, and then you get so many fruits. It matures at that time.
Gregoire: And, Shri Mataji, please can you tell us how or why it is that in Italy there has been such a good response compared to other European countries? I went to programs in Milano, in Rome where people who never heard about Kundalini, never heard about these things, people who had been warned against all the fake gurus came to you, kissed your hands, gave you flowers, were looking absolutely enchanted and shining, speaking: “Oh, la Grande Madre è venuta”.
How is it, what makes this country receptive to this message, Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: I can only say that Italians are the most sensitive people in the whole of Europe. They are very sensitive; because they are very human. Others in the grab they are, I think, are very much grabbed by machineries and other things, maybe the climate I think of Italy is such that people in this climate feel balanced.
I cannot explain why, but only I can state as a matter of fact that they are the most sensitive people.
Guido: Shri Mataji, I would like to ask you. We have seen so many so-called gurus in the west which are used to collect Rolls-Royces, and mesmerize people, and like parasites. So how it is that you don’t take any money for your great job? And another question: finally we listen talk about the Spirit. Would you like to say something about the nature of the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: Alright. The first question I have already answered that how can you pay? I mean, how much will you pay? It is love. It is love of God. It’s pure love. It just works by itself.
I don’t know much about money, I don’t understand. This cannot be paid for. It’s something different. This is not in the market.
Now, about the fake gurus, I have been telling about them from 1970 from everywhere that be careful. Because I know there are so many seekers are born. In seeking they go to drugs, in seeking they go to alcohol, in seeking they go to wrong things. And then they go to fake gurus also. Because they do not know anything else. But there is the truth.
Now about the Spirit, it’s a very long subject. I can only say that the nature of Spirit is that it is the Truth, it is the reality, it is the attention.
When it comes in the attention, your attention itself becomes powerful. And in look at anyone you can raise the Kundalini of that person. And thirdly, it is the Joy. Joy is a quality which is absolute, it is not happiness and unhappiness. Because these two depend on ego and super-ego. But joy is an absolute quality and that comes only from the Spirit.
Gregoire: Are the conditions that a man, a normal man living in the world of today, with the worries that we all have, the stress of the work, the problems of the family, is there any special type of person which can get this? Or can anybody get it? I mean, what makes the difference between those who get it and those who don’t?
Shri Mataji: There are a special categories also. They are called as seekers. The people who are seeking beyond. They think that they haven’t yet got what they wanted from life. They are not seeking money, they are not seeking positions, but what they are seeking they do not know. Such people are a special category, and they get realization without any difficulties. But once we have many people realized, why not. The whole world should get it. Because that is what they are here for.
Gregoire: Well, saint John said in the Apocalypse that the elected would be 144.000. I always found this word “elected” very disagreeable, because it sounded a bit elitist, but I was very happy to know that you felt that John was a bit miserly and that there should be many more people to get their realization.
Shri Mataji: You see, what he said were elected. But elected doesn’t mean electorates are less.
The ones who elect are many, but the elected means the one who will do the job.
Gregoire: Shri Mataji, to get many people, it is very important to provide them some guidance, because I found, having children in school, that our children are often left to very destructive influences, everybody know we have drugs in the school, we have all kind of behavior. And it seems that we should also speak about children because there is this family of the Father, of the Mother and of the Child. And what about the children, Shri Mataji, how can we give the right guidance to our children so that they can develop in themselves from the young age this readiness to open towards their deeper self?
Shri Mataji: Most of the children who will be born to you, those who have got realization, will be all realized souls.
Also, there are tremendous flow of divinity in that realm, in that area, and I find there are lots of saints being born these days. And these are going to come as your children.
But it is important that the parents must understand the deeper significance of the Spirit, and the effect of the bad things on the children, and they are the best to keep them out of any dangers. But as these children are realized souls, I am sure they will get out of most of those influences. On the contrary when they will grow, they will change all these things with greater dynamism.
Alessandra: Do you think this will change also our society through this different kind of people that will come out?
Shri Mataji: People make the society. When the people change, the society will change. And the society always bows to something that is noble. Always. In the long run. Have you ever seen a statue erected of a man who has been running after women or who has been drinking? Society does not respect anything that is not respectable. All these waves come and go away. Only the nobility, the righteousness, the higher qualities are respected. For a short time, it works out.
So, the society has to change. Because it will see the noble work God is doing through you people, and the society will definitely change. It has to change. We say that the whole world can bow to you, but there should be the One who knows how to make them bow to you.
Nowadays they are bowing to something unreal. But after all they are human beings. They are the highest in the realm of God’s creation and they will definitely realize that reality is reality.
Alessandra: How should their parents behave to grow them up in such a way that they can keep the qualities, let’s say?
Shri Mataji: In this western country, the children have the biggest problem of ego. If the parents are egoistical, then the child also become egoistical. If the mother is a hectic woman, and she is all the time running up and down, the child might develop a disease called Leukaemia.
All kinds of problems can arise from the disturbed parents. The first and foremost thing – the adults must decide that if they have to marry and have children, they have to be responsible for them and they have to behave themselves in such a manner that the children do not get any repercussion from them.
Alessandra: And Shri Mataji, one other aspect, very important for the growth of the children is the school, because they spend a lot of time in school. And what are your suggestions about school?
Shri Mataji: The school should be such that children should be told about the higher life and the nobler life and the children must be trained and disciplined for it. Nowadays it has stopped. People do not talk of God; they do not want to talk of Spirit. Because there has been lots of artificiality in the name of God.
But when you know it is the reality, it is better to tell them openly that there is God. And you have to experience Him. That’s all is the stage left. So, the children will also feel confident.
Normally children are aware of God and they want to talk about God, they like it. But it’s the parents by their behavior just take away their attention from that.
Alessandra: Is this the secret of the joy that we see in Indian children, we see such sparkling eyes compared to ours.
Interviewer (Male): Definitely, I think… (Video discontinued)
Shri Mataji: I think we are coming to that stage.
Gregoire: They were so sweet. Guido: They were absolutely adorable.