The role of men and women in a couple, how to speak to new comers
Shri Mataji: The Anglo-Saxon’s brain won’t accept that you say you should not pay any money for Sahaja Yoga. I said, “For this high-level people there is no Sahaja Yoga.” They can’t understand that you can give Sahaja Yoga without paying any money. So I said, “Really? Then, you tell Me from your Anglo-Saxon’s brain how much should I charge them?” He said, “Millions.” I said, “Really? That’s it. Then you think millions will do compensating for what I give them?” Then he started thinking of it. That’s an ego trick going on, you see. They talk. I’ve seen them, in the other life of Mine, where I see in the parties and all that. “Oh, have you been to that guru?” “No, it’s rather expensive.” “Try. It’s good.” It’s like trying on a horse. Very superficial. Try something new, you see. New, new should be tried. A new wife, new clothes, new style, new everything, new cars, new things. You shouldn’t have anything of permanent nature. Everything should be tried new. Everything should become a junk within one year’s time.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s terrible.
Shri Mataji: How will they like something that is eternal, that is the Spirit? Changeless. The houses are built in these days, buildings are built in these days in such a manner that it is easy to dismantle that. That’s the basic.
Sahaja Yogi: It’s prefabricated everything they have. When they had the time, most of them do.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. Moreover, it is built deliberately like that you can dismantle it. Unscrew it and screw it up again. But why do all these monkey tricks? Why not have once for all something nice, sensible? That attitude is not there. Then how can you have eternal? How will you care for eternal life? These are all the problems. [Hindi] So now what is the next plan for you people? [Hindi]
Sahaja Yogini: [Hindi]
Shri Mataji: [Hindi] So it is about four o’clock.
Sahaja Yogini: [Hindi]
Shri Mataji: We can’t say. [Hindi] What time is the program?
Sahaja Yogis: Seven p.m. Seven o’clock.
Shri Mataji: [Hindi] You don’t worry about the lunch part, yes? When I’ll reach there by four o’clock, as he said, maybe earlier, maybe later, I don’t know. Then I’ll take some rest. Then we’ll have the San Diego program and then day after tomorrow again we can have.
Sahaja Yogi: [Hindi]
Shri Mataji: [Hindi] God has to just see it, not to eat. I must put in it.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, just put one of the hands on her Sahasrara and a hand opened towards you…
Shri Mataji: A?
Sahaja Yogi: Just the other hand on the Sahasrara and one pointed towards You…
Shri Mataji: Say now.
Sahaja Yogi: Asleep.
Shri Mataji: How [may be as it is]? Take her a photograph. They are very sensitive children but what happens in this atmosphere? They get all ruined. Even realized souls I’ve seen, there are many realized souls who get lost. The atmosphere is funny. But what happened to Ursula and all that are not coming to the program?
Sahaja Yogini: [Hindi]
Shri Mataji: No, she never came?
Sahaja Yogini: [Hindi]
Shri Mataji: Maybe I may not be there. [Hindi].
Sahaja Yogini: But she wants to come Sunday night here. [Hindi]
Shri Mataji: [Hindi – talking about Guru Puja]
Sahaja Yogi: That’s right.
Shri Mataji: [Hindi – talking about Switzerland]
Sahaja Yogi: They’re coming to the puja, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Yes, you see. There are these Guru Pujas. Now, only three pujas this time [to give]. See, I think it is a, actually they are starting on, for Me of course I am going there earlier, because I have to go to Spain, and three days they have: Friday, that is the 28th of June, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. But Sunday morning is that opening ceremony, for which all the Sahaja Yogis will be there. And the Guru Puja is on the 29th morning. 29th morning and Thursday is the, and the Friday, Friday you all are arriving there, Friday. So, the seminar will be like Friday, part of it, and Saturday and Sunday morning is the opening of this thing. So, it’s more for the puja than for the seminar as such, but will be good idea. Puja itself, it’s great. And I’m going to Spain on Tuesday, Wednesday; then to Paris. Whole week is locked on like that. Then, you wanted Me to go to Switzerland in July. But I don’t know, for we have Switzerland earlier now, in June. So first I will go to Switzerland. [Hindi] I’ve brought such a lot of chocolates from India. They were all consumed.
Sahaja Yogini: And from London. They were all consumption.
Shri Mataji: [Hindi] Raja nahin rani?
Sahaja Yogi: Are va…
Shri Mataji: According to them, all the kings and queens in olden times were all saints or what?
Sahaja Yogi: They think that they, all Sahaja Yogis are royal descendants or something along that line. They, they believe that we both think, we the Sahaja Yogis, they do think, including themselves have taken birth again…
Shri Mataji: For what? For ruling others?
Sahaja Yogi: Oh, no, not for that. But they, they are attached to the idea that they were kings and queens in other lives, which is why she would give her a nice house and would be looked after very well so…
Shri Mataji: But that is because of yoga kshema vahamyam.
Sahaja Yogis: Yes. Bara bara hai. Bara bara hai.
Shri Mataji: [unclear], and that’s why. You got it because you were kings and queens. Then why did you get it last life? Logic.
Sahaja Yogi: What she thinks was, no, what disturbed her, Shri Mataji, is the fact that she spoke to new people in the same, making it public. Not someone’s thing is their business. When, when they speak it, have learned, then it becomes our business.
Shri Mataji: She should not speak. Here the women speak too much. It’s a funny country, you know. I’ve seen that if there’s an interview going on with the husband and wife, the husband will keep quiet and the wife will speak, all the time. I can’t understand. She’ll tell everything to the television man; everything she will talk. The women should not speak. It’s a funny thing that’s happening in all these countries.
Like, everywhere, like you see, this Chiang Kai-shek’s wife, she takes over. Say, you see, Mao’s wife, she takes over. It’s something, is a very, low-grade thing if, if a woman, you see, does not know how to contain within herself, shows that she is very low-grade. You see, a woman of quality will never come up like that unwanted, shows her self-respect. But it is very common, you see. The Mao’s wife was an ordinary woman. Chiang Kai-shek’s was another ordinary woman, you see. And then, they once they get big positions, they start talking so big. I mean, in India it is never done like that.
Like C.P. now, in his office and all that, people think that I am just deaf and dumb. I don’t talk, only whatever is needed to talk. But you just don’t talk over your husband, talk more than your husband. It’s absurd. What is the need? That doesn’t mean in any way, the women are less, are respected more. And if you try to compete with men like that, you see, that is why men become homosexuals.
Sahaja Yogi: That’s right, yes…
Shri Mataji: Really, I tell you I have had experience I must tell you now, that the aggressive women always make men, men, this thing, impotent. We have had the experiences in Sahaja Yoga. One man became impotent after marriage. I told the wife, of, I said, “You stop this nonsense of [aggression].” She talks, you see. When it comes to that, she’s the one who is talking. And the man became all right. They don’t behave like women and that’s what happens. What’s wrong in it? Why should you talk? I don’t understand. A man, it’s an extrovert; you are an introvert. Enjoy your introversion. It’s great. Without talking, if I could do, I would be very happy Myself. This country has really this problem the maximum, I think. Even when we were coming to L.A….
Sahaja Yogi: Right….
Shri Mataji: You see, this is a, we had taken a small little bag saying that we have to get down fast. So, the gentleman at the counter said, “All right, you can take it. It’s all right. It’s not so big.” But when we entered inside the airplane the lady there, she would not accept. She said, “No, no, this is big. This has to go down. This has to be this thing,” and all that. But there was one gentleman, he came forward. He said, “No, it’s not so big. Why are you troubling her?” And he went all the way down and brought the bag back. “If they have to get down early, why should you trouble them?” And the men also here become peevish, absolutely, just like mice. [Hindi]
You see, you know, in Germany, we got lost with this. In Germany we had three hundred people in the first ad hoc [gathering]. Can you believe it? Three hundred people? So, see, you must see the perspective also. Three hundred people got Realization. And hundreds of them came back. Hundred. Can you imagine?
Sahaja Yogi: Wow! That’s nice, yes.
Shri Mataji: And this boy, Hugo, he’s an Australian, but married a German lady. And German ladies are all like this, you see. And whatever he said, she tried to correct him, give ideas, and he was absolutely sort of cut short by her, completely. And all of them we lost, one and all, all the hundred we lost.
Sahaja Yogi: My goodness…
Shri Mataji: And they said it, that, “Here the woman rules, and we don’t want to be ruled by a woman”. Finished.
Sahaja Yogi: Wow.
Shri Mataji: And she is a very ordinary person compared to Hugo. He was very well-educated and very accomplished Sahaja Yogi.
Sahaja Yogi: Right.
Shri Mataji: But she dominates him. Same thing happened in Austria, Australia. And there was one girl called Daina, and her husband was this James, you see. When Warren came away, James said, “All right.” She, she used to dominate him always. So, he said, “All right, you look after the ashram.” And when I went there, they were all crying and weeping and saying that this woman is so horrid, you can’t imagine that. She said, “I will decide about Mother’s room.” She spent, I think, one thousand pounds developing that. Means that all kinds of things she has done. So, we had to send her away. Now she is back. She, she came to what place? We sent her to Strasbourg, near Ruth. And now she is better. And everybody has improved. Her children had become so weak, crying all the time, and the children have improved. Everything is all right now. I mean, you must behave in a normal way.
Supposing you put left to the right and right to the left, what will happen? There will be confusion.
Even Indian women can be dominating if they take to Western life. They do. But all their family style is upset. There’s no wisdom in it and no respect, nothing. They have no powers in them, nothing. They just talk, that’s all. I mean, you must understand, American women must understand, one of the big problems is the American woman, I think, very big problem. You should not compete with men. What is there to compete with them? You are much better off. You are like the Mother Earth. You can bear anything. You can do whatever. You are shakti. What is there to dominate a man, and to compete with a man? I mean, it would be like a horse competing with the man who rides the horse.
Better learn all these things. It’s important. Sahaja Yogis must understand. Yes, she talks too much, this lady. I will talk to her and I’ll tell her. In Sahaja Yoga also, when somebody comes in, let men talk and then women should talk. Big problem. Not that women are not intelligent, not that they are not that, they are much more. They are much more. They are the strength. They are the source. But why do you want to exhaust your source like this?
Because in this country these women were treated like that also. I don’t blame them. Because it’s important to have an economic this thing and all that. Apart from that, they asked Me, in the BBC, “Do they respect you as a woman?” I said, “Why not?” They said, “No, here, if a woman is a guru nobody is going to respect her.” So, I can’t understand. In India they would respect a woman much more. They said that, “Do they think you to be so reliable?” In India a woman is much more reliable than the man is, is much more solid than the man is, is much more steady than a man is. [Hindi]
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, very true.
Shri Mataji: A law will believe a woman more than they will believe a man in India. So, they asked Me opposite questions. I was surprised. “But do they respect you as a woman?” I said, “Why not?” [This] woman is to be more respected. I don’t know why it happens like this. Here the men must have dominated women very much. That’s why women are like this. It’s a reaction. But in India a married woman is very powerful. Most powerful thing is the married woman. Even Krishna has said it, that the Sati is higher than the Yati. [Hindi]
Krishna was killed by a Sati’s curse; you know that? You know? Remember that, yes? Gandhari, you see, was a blind, her husband was a blind fellow. So, she said, “If my husband is blind, I’ll also keep my eyes closed.” And she tied something on her eyes. “If my husband has no eyes, why should I have eyes? “All her life she kept her eyes closed. So, her eyes were so powerful that her son, when he came to her, she said, “All right, you just become naked completely and I’ll put my eyes on you and nobody can kill you.” But he was shy to become naked, you see, before the mother. So, he wears a little underwear. When she opened her eyes, her glance made all his body just like stone. But Krishna knew about it. So, he was killed by tearing off the body from the centre. That was the [mistake].
[Cut in the audio]
Like, Sahaja Yogis must understand because you must have that knowledge, how to neutralize these images and projections that they have built. Because they are very formidable things, and unless and until you learn how to do it, they won’t be able to understand you. So, you have to be always as you say that “one up”. Now the first thing was the idea of illusion. Very interesting it is. Now for them, you see, there is nothing like evil, nothing like bad; everything is an illusion for them. So why talk of evil? Why talk anything against the gurus? Everything is an illusion. All right. Now let Me see how will you answer that. Who can answer? To a person who talks to you, how will you answer? Tell Me.
Sahaja Yogi: I think [we can] feel on Your vibrations and your hands is just not an illusion. Then it’s real that you can measure things.
Shri Mataji: No, no. But you see this is different. First, I mean you should start from the point at they are, still on arguing point. Not yet they have feeling any vibrations, or anything. So then, how will you tell them, if they say that is also an illusion? You can’t talk to them about vibrations to begin with. You all are at a very different level that you don’t understand. Must know that your levels are changed completely. You are talking from a level where they are not. So now, how will you tell them that the devils are there, and the satanic are there and there is negativity and all these things.
Sahaja Yogini: You get them to [log on and see OR lock and] how it’s working in our lives.
Shri Mataji: Oh, then going into big discussion. They’ll say that, “Oh, that we have seen.” You see, they all think that they can take their own decisions, they can have their own ideas. Another idea is that they will say that, “It’s all an illusion, you see. You talk about all these things, they’re illusions, finished.” Now they will say, “Look at your lives. All right, we look at our lives as illusion.” Then what do you say?
[Hindi] Ha, let’s have it.
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, supposing You can tell their vibrations to prove it.
Shri Mataji: No, no, they haven’t felt the vibrations. They don’t know what is vibrations is. You see, you just confront them as they are. Vibrations are different things. They haven’t got it. They haven’t felt it. They have not known what it is. Then how will you discuss? You see, even you meet them. [Hindi] When you just meet them and you confront them, then what will you say?
Sahaja Yogi: [unclear] what are the questions.
Shri Mataji: [Hindi] Here you see, Americans or anywhere, of course, Americans are the top-listed people in this that they have their own images and they have their own conceptions. Now one of the conceptions is that everything is an illusion, you see? So, how can we say that somebody is a bad guru or a good guru or how can you say that there are evil forces? There’s nothing like evil because it’s all illusion.
Sahaja Yogini: Now I can say that this is my experience with it.
Shri Mataji: No, no that’s very personal. Would be arbitrary. Because they never had any experience, nothing. Then, on mental level, they….
Sahaja Yogi: Maybe we have to go to the physical level with these people and tell them that it’s something like that they can quit your help. You can go down to their level and get their intention by help maybe, then peaceful, [unclear].
Shri Mataji: No, no, they are not willing to go on to that point. They are not going to ask you to give you Realization or anything. They will just, ha. Now let’s see.
Sahaja Yogi: You tell them to look at any other Scriptures that are accepted. You tell them to look to any other Scriptures whether they are Christians.
Shri Mataji: But if they don’t believe? Say, agnostic. I mean, we have all kinds of headstrong people over here.
Sahaja Yogi: What about the decorous, the way they [lead/lived] their lives and the examples [that/of] their disciples whatever they [did/were doing].
Shri Mataji: No, no, for them evil is not there. Even they are leading that life, is an illusion.
Sahaja Yogi: You can only judge, Mataji, from your experience, your own experience.
Shri Mataji: No, no, but supposing without that, [Hindi] without that on mental level, if somebody confronts you, what will you do? Supposing face to face you see somebody comes and says this to Me, “Oh, I think this is all illusion. Why should we worry about somebody’s bad or somebody’s? It’s all an illusion.”
Sahaja Yogi: Mother, can’t You tell what is from within because Your vibrations?
Shri Mataji: But they don’t want to listen to all that. They will say this is myth.
Sahaja Yogini: Who created the illusion?
Shri Mataji: Aaaa?
Sahaja Yogini: You could ask them if it is illusion, the illusion has to be created. There’s a Creator.
Shri Mataji: No, they will say, “Illusion exists because we are ignorant, but to me it’s an illusion.”
Sahaja Yogini: To become [more real]?
Shri Mataji: Aaaa?
Sahaja Yogini: To become [more real]?
Shri Mataji: He becomes the, he has to become the reality. But to him, you see, that’s also is an illusion.
Sahaja Yogi: Now You can please tell us, Mother.
Shri Mataji: No, no, you have already. I’ve told you now. You have to tell because I’ve spent so much time with you now. Will you please tell what I told you?
Sahaja Yogi: I don’t know if I can repeat the same way You said to me, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: All right, I’ll tell. See, when you are just discussing something on mental level you cannot talk of something of an experience and all that. Nobody is going to listen to you. So, you have to go on the mental level itself, and there you have to convince a person. So, you should say that, say, a man is in a boat, all right? And he sees the waves of the water, is the ocean. So, to him it’s an illusion because it doesn’t affect him. All right? But supposing you are in the water, then it’s not an illusion. So, you have to achieve that state of mind where it becomes an illusion.
Another good example is, supposing you are watching the television, all right? Then there is a fire, you see. You are seeing the illusion. That fire doesn’t burn you. But supposing you are, there is fire already, will you put your hand to that? You won’t, because it’s not an illusion for you. So, you have to achieve that state of mind where the thing is an illusion, which you do not have. That’s what we are saying that you have to achieve that state of mind where it looks like an illusion. Then they will realize that their state of mind is at a lower level and they have to raise it to a higher level because it’s not an illusion for them actually. You see the point now? How to explain it. Very simple is that for a person who is in a boat, for him it is an illusion. But not for the person who is in the water.
This is one question. What was the- another question I’ve explained to you? It was a good question I explained to you, on mental level it was. So, I’ve said the second. The first one is not coming anymore. Aaa. Then which I explained to you, there’s another thing. It’s the idea of people is this, that you see I’ve asked somebody, “Why do you like Freud so much?” He said, “Because he was new.” So, to a Western mind anything new, “Oh, we should do it. Why not? It’s a new thing. Let us do it. If anything is new, then we should try. Why not try?” But trying whatever it’s new. So, for this, what will you explain?
You have to give a concrete example.
Sahaja Yogini: The example of a natural plant’s growth. Plants grow the same way as they always do. Human beings have the same natural way of growing. And…
Shri Mataji: No, no, but how will you say, “Don’t try anything new?” How will you say that? This is the mistake of our Western society is they tried everything new. Hippie-ism came, hippies. Now this cocaine has come, cocaine. Tomorrow something else; we have that. Paint your hair, paint your hair, paint your nose, paint your nose. [
Shri Mataji: is laughing.]
Anything new they want to try, “What’s wrong?”
[Conversation in Hindi]
Sahaja Yogi: Power of discretion “nahi hai” [No, it’s not].
Shri Mataji: Aaaa?
Sahaja Yogi: Power of discretion…
Shri Mataji: No, no, but how can you say to them if? You can’t be blunt with them. To say, “You have no discretion,” they’ll say, “You don’t have.” So, you can’t be blunt, but how cleverly you can tell them. Concrete example.
As I told you the other day, I think you missed the point. You have to say, “All right, plastic is new. Try plastic. You make a plastic flower, all right? And you get this flower. Which is, which is the right thing? This one. Why? Because it has evolved from a tradition. It has evolved from a seed into a tree, into the, and there you see a flower; it’s a living process. All right. But plastic is new, but it’s plastic; it’s dead. 11:40
They also tried plastic, used to have plastic everything, plastic this and plastic that. Now they are fed up with the plastic. They don’t know what to do with them. So, everything new, when you try at least see that it has some traditions; it has some basis.
Now all these people you are trying “shaktipar”, this, that, nonsense, you see, they have no basis. But it is never written in any Vedas, anywhere, in any Shastras; this word it is not there. This arunupaya, tarunupaya, karunupaya, all that, it’s not written anywhere. It comes suddenly from somewhere, from this Theosophical Society. This Theosophical Society is only hundred years old. All this nonsense is a hundred years old. We have never heard of such thing. Even Ram Krishna, dancing like that, you see, wearing a sari and all that, one has never heard of anybody doing like that. So, from, from where does it come? Suddenly a new thing, and all that new thing is accepted by the West. It is not described anywhere, not talked about, take to any Vedas, take to any Puranas. Anywhere it is not described.
Nowhere it is written that Kundalini it’s a dangerous thing, nowhere. Even Kabir who was, I think, about sixteen hundred years back has not said that. [Hindi] Mohamed Sahib ke baad aaye. [Hindi] Eight hundred years back. Mohamed Sahib has not said it sixteen years [unclear] back, sixteen thousand years back, sixteen hundred years back. Eight hundred years back Kabir never said it. Suddenly, I don’t know how the idea that Kundalini is very dangerous has come. So, all such new things have also come in India, like tantrism, erotic these things, and they went away. Because all such new things what people try go out of the circulation of your evolution. They are just thrown out. They are not accepted. In the same way, all these gurus will be thrown out. In these twelve years you have seen all gurus are exposed. You can see how wrong, what wrong they have done cause also it has effects, because if you take to something which is just new you see the effects of that, like plastic. When, when they said that first bomb fell in Singapore people had never seen bombs. It was a new thing. So, they came up to see, and they died. So, one has to understand that whatever we call new, may not be good for us. So, this is the second answer. All right. Now, another, third question; let’s see if you can answer this one.
Sahaja Yogis: We haven’t done too well so far.
Shri Mataji: So, trying everything new ventures, new things, one must have a traditional idea about that. Like a man who takes to new business suddenly, does not know anything about it, its tradition, its background, anything, suddenly takes to new. He is not going to be successful [Hindi]. In the same way, anybody comes out of the blue and says that you stand on your heads, why must you? You should ask, “Why should we? Why should we do this hassle? Why?” No, because it is new it’s acceptable. So, the two questions are clear-cut, I hope, in your minds now, very clear-cut should be. Now the third question, let Me think. Trouble is, in your presence I also don’t think. What is the third question you asked Me? Just trying to remember. You have forgotten all the questions. You only ask Me these questions.
Sahaja Yogis: Bad memory. It’s very difficult the thing when You are missing, Shri Mataji.
Shri Mataji: Third question is, I don’t remember what they did ask. No, I don’t remember third question is. I’ll remember later. Then I’ll ask.
Sahaja Yogi: Was it about the destruction, Shri Mataji? About the collective manifestation of Shri Kalki or…
Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon?
Sahaja Yogi: About Shri Kalki. I asked in [unclear] about the big wok.
Shri Mataji: Ah, that one? That is only for Sahaja Yogis. We can’t tell all these things to others but for Sahaja Yogis. Like he asked Me a question that, “If this is the last chance, then what’s going to happen to the rest of them?” So I said, “In the beginning, of course, we’ll try to get them to India, do whatever is possible, but even if they don’t understand and they play games with themselves, then we have to cut off.” Then another world for them is created. And in that world they’ll live. They’ll have all human awareness, but as described by many people [and/that] it’s true they’ll have burning sensations in the body. Is described like this: a big wok will be there, there will be boiling oil and they’ll be put in that and fried, and they’ll have their awareness there and they’ll suffer all the pangs, and this is one of them only.
There are thousand and one styles they’ll be tortured. Horrible things they’ll have. That’s what you’d asked Me. Ha. Now, so the other question like that, that they will say that, “But, see we have advanced so much, you see.” They all think, “We are very advanced people and we are so developed and this and that. We are so much developed, and all thanks to our psychologists and thanks to our scientists and thanks to other people that we have come up to this level,” you see. Many people think that now they have achieved their freedom also because of Freud, so-called freedom. So, what’s wrong? What’s the answer?
Sahaja Yogi: So today it’s the question, do you feel free?
Shri Mataji: Do you?
Sahaja Yogi: Do I feel free? I feel free.
Shri Mataji: No, no, the question is this. No, no, the question is like this. I was just talking. The question, if somebody asks you, then what will you say?
Sahaja Yogi: I would say, “Do you feel free”? If they say that, “I feel free because Freud gave me my freedom,” I can turn around and say, “And you feel free?”
Shri Mataji: Then, they’ll say, “Yes”.
Sahaja Yogi: If they say, “Yes”, oh then, it’s wonderful because they have found a nice [terminal?]. But I don’t believe it.
Shri Mataji: That’s a, that’s a different point. You see, that’s not.
But how to convince them?
They will say that, you see, “We have advanced so much. India has not so much advanced. We are very well-to-do people. We have solved our material problem. We are developed people,” this and that. I mean, they are quite cocksure about themselves. That’s why they talk like that.
Sahaja Yogini: I would ask them how much peace and joy they experience in their own life.
Shri Mataji: Oh, you see that, they will say they do experience. Then what can you say? You see, these things cannot be proved you know, Ursula? You cannot prove it.