Press Conference

International Press Center, Brussels (Belgium)

1985-07-01 Press Conference Brussels Belgium DP-RAW, 80' Download subtitles: ENView subtitles:
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Press Conference, 1985-0701

Shri Mataji: How do we start, am I suppose to say something about Kundalini?

Yogi: Yes Shri Mataji we would like to know

Shri Mataji Hmm

Yogi: By your voice something about

Shri Mataji: You have told them already? I can I think they can ask me questions if you have already told them they know of the subject

Journalists discussing something among themselves

Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon

Journalist: says something

Shri Mataji: Me?

Journalist: They would like to hear from you Shri Mataji

Shri Mataji: I see, I don’t know how what he has told you, but I have come here to tell you about something that may be good for all our problems in the west.

The western mind has grown just like a tree has grown outside, without going into the roots, so the outgrown tree has to know about the roots, and thus we are waiting for a shock.

Recently I have been to America and I feel that the danger to America is not from outside but from inside. They have been indulging into things without knowing what relationship it has to the whole, so the need of today is to know why we have these maladies. Where are we going?

I have been searching within human beings the problem in a different way, inside them, I did my medicine and just to talk to `doctors and through meditative methods penetrating, I tried to find out why human beings are diverted from real reality.

There are two categories of human beings actually, only two. One category who has human awareness, human awareness, and the other category is a special category I call it, who can be called as people who are realised souls, (they all understand English that’s good). This is a special category which is mentioned in all the religions, by all the prophets, everyone has talked about this date, Tao, Zen, Buddha, Mahavira, Christ of course, everyone has talked about it.

What is gone wrong with religions is that, that they have not tried to find out their spirit, the essence of it, they lost the point? Now supposing if there is something called as spiritual awareness or a super awareness, supposing, take a hypothesis, you have to keep your mind open as scientists. If what I am saying if I can prove it to you, then you accept it but don’t keep your mind closed.

Even scientists are very much conditioned by science. Science is a mental projection, it’s just a mental projection and whatever is in the nature that is what they discover, they cannot create even a stone, we cannot create even a stone. They must accept, we can analyse, we can find out whatever is in nature but it is just a mental projection which is limited and which is linear. Because of its linear movement it recoils back upon us, it cannot sustain itself, so science has produced atom bomb and we are frightened of it, now computer will produce another problem, one after another we’ll have problems after problems machines have produced problems, we have acid drinks, the development, the whole economic development ends up into a problem, plastic has produced problems for us. Because we, it is not related to reality Even when Confucius talked of humanism it was needed at that time when people were lethargic, but the way people have developed themselves now, without any relationship to reality or to the whole we have become malignant in a way in for trouble and the trouble is we are not aware till it blasts off. Without the transformation of human beings from within not only talking about it, what we need is a transformation in our awareness, so we have to see with an open mind if it is feasible if it exists with an open mind. I think all thinking people should try to see if there is a possibility or not, if so then we think positively about it, if so, how do we achieve it.

It’s a natural process within us built in, a living process by which we have become human beings from amoeba stage, and the second stage whatever if it is so, again I keep it as a hypothesis, has to happen has to happen naturally, has to happen spontaneously. But in the human stage, it is little different from the animal stage, a fish came out of the sea, one fish, then ten followed, then hundreds and then a shoal of fishes followed. But human beings not easy, because they have the freedom to decide, they have freedom and their freedom is to be respected if they have to have ultimate freedom. And very difficult for human beings to accept that anybody can tell them about it, very difficult, that’s why they crucified Christ, poisoned Mohammed Saheb, tortured Buddha, Mahavira, they cannot accept.

When I was born, I tried to really understand human beings, and this big problem that they have, so I thought no use talking about, the best thing is those who are born on the ground are to be elevated at least on the second or third story so they know there is something beyond. That’s the best way one can manage. But the problem was that here is what you see is the seventh centre, within us the subtle centre was not opened. It was to be opened. Where you get your baptism to actualise not artificial baptism, it’s a real a baptism (beg your pardon), so when that happened I could manage the awakening of this dormant energy within us which is actually, whatever I am saying you should not take it for granted, I am again saying with the open mind, it’s the knowledge of the roots. Is the this is the power which expresses the reflection of the Holy Ghost within us. Christ was given hardly three and a half years to talk, it’s no time for Christ to tell all these things, and they crucified him. For four years I was struggling with seven British hippies couldn’t do anything with them, because first of all, they do not have the tradition of our seeking, they have no tradition, they have a desire but no tradition, they don’t understand what to seek, what to achieve, there is no tradition at all, because the tradition is to grow outside not inside inward. And this is like a plumule in a seed, which is to be awakened, it awakens and pierces through your fontanelle bone area and you can feel the cool breeze coming out of your head you do feel. It’s an experience, it may happen it may not happen you cannot be guaranteed. but it happened to so many in Europe, I should say so many in America. In India, it is in thousands, thousands because they have the tradition.

And it will work very fast in India, I know that very easy to work it out there, people are not that materialistic, I mean here when I come in the west people say there is poverty, we don’t think we are poor I don’t know what makes people think we are poor, which way, we are much more generous than any other country people are, very generous people, you go to an ordinary Indian, he would love to look after you, we are very happy joyous festive people, here I find everybody so miserable, le miserable. They are satisfied people. What is in matter, do you think you can get joy out of this matter alright a little bit we need for comfort, we can sit on the ground in India, we don’t have such bad weather, that all the time you have to cover yourself, we can live under a tree and there is no poverty of the heart. Others are more concerned about our poverty and also they do not want to think why we are poor because we were aggressed for three hundred years, at least for three hundred years, you can imagine, and also left all the funny things of materialism like you will be amazed that in my father’s house I had never known locking the houses or theft or bribery we never knew, all this was left behind by the British. So, we are still suffering the pangs you see of that slavery, but the Indians as they live in the villages, these are the unknown Indians, they are very different.

Because materialism without relationship to the spirit can be very dangerous, we see that we see that. Now you know there are diseases coming up in America and when I went there, they said to me we have right to destroy ourselves what do you say to that, then I said alright you go ahead with it. The positive attitude towards life if it is lost through materialism is better not to have it. The attitude should be positive, constructive. There’s no love there’s no compassion there’s no heart in the life, people are so frustrated, disgusted, unhappy.

Actually, I never had in my mind to come to the west but my husband got elected to this job by 134 nations elected him and I was forced to come to London. That’s how I am here and I see it and I feel it that there are great saints born in this country great people, great seekers you see those people who are taking now drugs and all that are seekers you must know they are seekers, very beautiful people they are in heart, very nice people, they are to be saved. It has to be done. In sahaja yoga when it happens you’ll be surprised overnight people have given up drugs, overnight, overnight, people have been cured of incurable diseases like cancer so many diseases, but AIDS, we have cured AIDS, you’ll be surprised but, it is not that we should say that I have cured but this energy which is residual within you when it awakens it nourishes you, by that nourishment you just get cured physically. Mentally you get peaceful and it is not just talk it is actualization it’s becoming that is what every human being can become, a little breakthrough is needed, that’s how every human being can become that.

Now see our political systems are fighting for nothing at all, it’s all mental I think, like we say somebody is a capitalist, a communist and this and that it is it’s not reality I would say that I am the greatest capitalist I feel because I know everything about it, I have all the powers I am the greatest communist because I must share it, everything integrates once you become the spirit, everything, all these theories which have failed, which we think look like just the words become reality when you become the spirit. But one must turn one’s attention to it, it’s very difficult to break because all our attention is involved into all useless things which are fruitless, joyless pursuits. It is very difficult to turn I mean especially with journalism I find in the west is brought up in a very different manner. I mean if Brussels journalist could do some justice to me I’ll be thankful but I must say that countries of tradition like Italy have come along because they are traditional they understand serenity, they understand auspiciousness, they understand also holiness, sacredness, still surprisingly.

And I am sure one day everybody will pay some attention and you can’t pay for it, you see how have gurus here this kind of a thing that kind of thing where people make money, lynch others, is cannot do these things cannot do these things this is so spontaneous it’s your own this is what you have to get. And for that you cannot be obliged to anyone it is just your own like one light which is enlightened if it enlightens another candle it doesn’t oblige it is just ready gets it, it’s no obligation nothing. And Mohammed Saheb has specially said about it I must say I don’t know what the Muslims are doing I mean they are all one better than the other all this fundamentalist better not deal with them, but He himself has said that at the time of resurrection your hands will speak, He has spoken more about resurrection than about doom’s day, but they want to talk about doomsday because they can frighten people you see and develop their fundamentalism not only Muslims everybody is like that, and nobody has done justice to their leaders or to their prophets or to their incarnations nobody has done. They have nothing to do with them, Christ himself has said, you ‘ll be calling me Christ, Christ I won’t recognize, He has clearly said, you are to be born again so they certified themselves I am born again I am baptized you cannot certify like that, you have to be, to be honest one has to be. A dog cannot certify itself that I am a human being, can it? Supposing it certifies it cannot be, he has to become.

Now you ask me questions because you see the thing is the subject matter is so big and I have dealt in thousands and thousands of lectures and things and so the best thing would be to ask questions about this will be a good idea.

Journalist: How did you discover this?

Shri Mataji: You see that I discovered because I have certain methods of doing it.

They say supposing somebody is a scientist and you are not a scientist so how can the scientist tell you how did I discover, but I told you in way that I know how to do it I can know the inside of human being somehow, but I have that within me what can I do if I have? Alright?

Journalist: What is the difference between what you are telling us and what all the yogis of the tradition of the world telling this scheme appears to be in all books about yoga.

Shri Mataji: No the books you all have read are not traditional none of them is traditional, you see about a hundred years back this some new stuff came in, I am amazed at what I tell you and because the western mind is extrovert and extrovert mind always likes new things, anything new, you see you tell them you put a tin on your head they’ll put it, you tell them you make your hair like this they’ll make it, I mean it’s something new all the time they go to, whatever you know about the traditional yoga it’s not, if you read Patanjali its very different from what you do in yoga. He never talked of all these asanas you do to that extent, actually it was it is very recent I would not even say hundred years. One fellow went to the Himalayas and was discarded by all the realized souls there. He came down and he started writing about these asanas actually, it is all related to your chakras, we too use asanas but how, when the kundalini rises we know on what centre it stops, then we know how to correct that centre, supposing it is a physical problem then you have to do a particular asana, but supposing you have a problem in the stomach and you do the asana for some other chakra what’s the use? It’s a science, if you read Patanjali the whole book is like this in Sanskrit language, it’s not translated in English the whole of it not at all and this one was a long time back, fourteen thousand years back they mentioned kundalini, sixteen thousand I would say Markandya was sixteen thousand years back he mentioned kundalini, kundalini is the basis but about a hundred years back people started talking about all kind of nonsense. Even in India, westernized Indians are impressed by all these kind of things. I went to Puna, I was surprised people were having paralysis this that.

I said that how is it you have got all these problems, people said ah our guru has taught us all this. What is your guru? What did he tell you? They gave me names like Shaktipaya, Taruopaya, Darunopaya, this that, I said I never heard of where did you learn this thing. They gave me one book, which was written only seventy years back by some crazy fellow, which is not mentioned anywhere in the thing, I mean if you read even Adi Shankaracharya he has talked about it, Chaitanya lahari and all, but that’s the sixth century. Kabira, now Kabira is much later, Nanaka throughout, but how people can change it into something funny you see like the Greeks changed all the Gods into something stupid like Kabira talked of this as a surati, called it as surati, this kundalini as surati. Kabira called, but do you know when he was born in Bihar they called tobacco as surati now what do you say to that.
Christ has talked about it, even Bible, I will appear before you like tongues of flames He has said about the tree of fire, this is the same thing. But according to time people have talked this was a secret knowledge for quite some time in India, but it became quite an eloquent I think at the time of Adi Shankaracharya to begin with but Kabira and Nanaka have already said it clearly. What about the Sikhs? Do they know anything about it? It’s all they read from one page to another in two and a half hours the whole thing they can read. But they miss all the points, you see reading is not the way to know it. It has to happen. Like supposing you have a headache and I say you take Anacin and you go on reading I take Anacin I take Anacin will it, it will work out? So the knowledge that you have got about yoga books is only about hundred years old which I don’t know from where it has come, when I read it I am amazed and I have read , seen such a thick book written on kundalini that the kundalini is in the stomach , it is not you can see at the times sometimes in some people when the centre of nabhi or the centre of the solar plexus is under pressure you can see even the pulsation of the kundalini very clearly on this triangular bone, very clearly, but I would say even the Greeks knew about it because they called this bone as sacrum, sacrum meaning sacred, they knew about it definitely otherwise why did they call this bone sacrum. Athena itself the Ath, Ath means primordial and Athena is the one stands with a snake-like thing in her hand and with all the centres showing in her hand, if you see the I have seen the I have been to Greece I know, but all that was sort of brought down to some sort of a level which I don’t know understand what should I call it we call it supra-conscious level, it is something on the right-hand side movement. Or the left side movement as we call it as the subconscious or the collective subconscious because they could not move higher they started giving supra-conscious aa experiences and the collective subconscious experiences which are very dangerous very dangerous like parapsychology now, how to convince them it is a collective subconscious entry which is very dangerous. That cancer is triggered by that, how to tell them? By entering into the collective sub-conscious, you will be amazed that people are such closed about things

There were four great scientists came to India to talk to me from America and they wanted to become I don’t know what, they said we want to have that consciousness by which you become subtle you can go to moon you can go to the sun. I said why you are already flying in the air why do you want to become that.

They said no we want to become subtle personalities to go into the air if I do this.

I said but why?

They said because Russians are doing it. I said they are doing wrong they’ll all suffer and you will also suffer. I said who told you this, they gave a name of a journalist in India called Patanjali.

I said I am amazed at Patanjali himself because he was suffering from this kind of a disease, and his wife came to me and I cured him now do you want me to put the disease into you. It’s very dangerous to play about with the subconscious and the collective subconscious or supra-conscious or the collective supra-conscious. You are lost you do not know what you are doing. That’s what some of these false and fake gurus and all these people who are very powerful here are using that mesmerism, ESP all this is the same. Thank God now we have published a book in French which you can see yourself and read.


Journalist: Difference between what you are doing and certain other eastern religions in the west is that you don’t ask money

Shri Mataji: No no no how can you pay money? How can you pay money for? Now say I am saying it’s a living process let be wise about it, now If it’s the mother earth she is sprouting a seed, do we pay anything to the mother earth? Do we? And be wise about it how can you pay for it? It is invaluable, how much did we pay to become human beings from the monkey stage? Did we pay? Let’s take it that way, I mean I am asking you a simple question. It’s a living process how can you pay for it? I, at the most you can pay for my ticket to the aero for the aeroplane, at the most I mean if you have to pay anything that you can pay?

Journalist: You are too rich

Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon

Journalist: You are too rich

Shri Mataji: Luckily this time I am born in a rich family. I come from a royal family in India which has a calendar and also my husband is quite well off and a generous man and he believes, he believes that that’s the only way it can work out, he believes in Sahaja yoga, he is a great sustenance for me. I live alright and you will also live alright. For this, you don’t have to pay. Krishna has said “Yog kashem vahameyam” when you get yoga real union, He looks after you and wellbeing everything physical, mental, emotional, even material. Because you become such a satisfied soul also, now as you see me, I come from a rich family so called my husband is rich my house in London could be called as a mini palace sort of a place may be, well I can live anywhere, I can live on the street I can live in the jungles, this body of mine is very good it doesn’t trouble me at all it’s comfortable anywhere. I am not bothered about what I eat, what I do, not bothered.

Comfort is another slavery, I mean those who sit on the chair cannot sit on the ground, the chair comes on our head, the more we try to be comfortable the worst it is. But the body can be your slave I mean it’s just it is for you, you are not for the body.

Journalist: But certain others like Bhagwan they do ask money

Shri Mataji: Babba don’t bring these controversial people it is how can it be? Just tell me how can it be? They ask, let them ask, what to do, they will go with its all wrong, you are people so naive, why do you give them? You are so naive, like one fellow came to London and he said if you give me the 59th Rolls Royce then I’ll come, can you imagine, ninth Rolls Royce, so the poor boy so sweet of them but stupid also, starved themselves for one year, bought a Rolls Royce for him when this great man came in and the big journalist of London and everybody was there to take photographs of the Rolls Royce. And when some of the Sahaja yogis approached them they said why you want to give him a Rolls Royce they said Rolls Royce is a metal we are giving him the metal he gives us the spirit. How can you convert metal into the spirit? Can you? You are intelligent people you have to tell them that it’s not possible to convert metal into that’s why they are very angry with me all of them, you see after all you see are all very against me but what to do?

Yes, please

Journalist: People do feel themselves and realize themselves what are the means that like what are the exercises like in the traditional yoga

Shri Mataji: No, No you see there is no exercise it is effortless, Sahaj, sah means with, sah means with, ja means born, is born with you, no nothing has to be done.

The realization goes into first the step of awakening when the kundalini herself comes up alright. Now the advantage of this is like a lamp which is dirty, or something wrong with the lamp, if you put a little light in it, it can see for itself, what’s wrong with me alright?

So, you start cleansing yourself, like you become your own guru you become your own master. But first little light must come, that’s important, that’s the only job I do the rest of it you look after. You have to become your own guru.

It’s not only I, supposing you get it and you master it, then you, you can do it, mere one gentleman in India, he is just a farmer, has given realization to ten thousand people. Well here is Dr Warren I don’t know how many people he has given realization I don’t keep count of it because we have no organisation as such, we have no membership nothing of that kind. We don’t have any organisation as such we have another Doctor here sitting.

Journalist: You have centres different?

Shri Mataji: Yes centres we have, but it’s not like the centres that others have, its actually like people when they are living in a place you see, they pay the rent of the place, they manage I don’t know how they live they share among themselves, the rent as well as the food and that they call as the centre. They become so collective and you should see the joy that flows between them, a person going from here to India and in India the people waiting for him to come a Sahaja yogi is coming to the whole world becomes your family.

Journalist: Why don’t you call it an ashram?

Shri Mataji: Hmm? Beg your pardon

Journalist: Why don’t you call it an ashram?

               Why don't you call it an ashram? These centres.

Shri Mataji: We do, do call ashram, ashram also we call it, we call it ashram also we call it ashram, also centres. If it’s a small place where only people can come to visit, then it is a centre see whatever you may call that makes no difference. We have ashrams everywhere except here we don’t have but hope to establish one here, we have just a centre.

We have an ashram in Italy where else, we have an ashram in Austria very good ashram, we have a very good one in Switzerland. In England, we have five of them. France, we have a very nice ashram.

It’s not just a lip service it’s an actualization, lip service, just talking about, it’s not just the theory, it’s just the actualization, because you are that I mean it’s nothing difficult, you are all that, just you have to have what you have, that’s all, you have to be aware of it that’s all. It’s so simple that’s why people don’t like it You see if we tell them you can eat like this no they don’t want to they want to eat this way that way that way (laughs), what can we do about its very simple has to be because it is so vital like our breathing, supposing for our breathing you have to read a yoga and go to a guru pay him thousand pounds, how many will exist, it is so vital, and the time has come, this is the time, the time, it’s all mentioned thousands of years back, if you heard about Bhrigumani, he has written a complete book called as Nadi Granth, about these times everything described Sahaja yoga everything, even 100 years back I would say William Blake has described everything about Sahaja yoga everything, but people called him crazy, they like people like Barron all imaginary people.

Journalist: William Blake was a poet and poetical mystic, are you mystic as well?

Shri Mataji: I don’t know what to call myself it’s very difficult (Laughs)

Journalist: You know what mysticism is?

Shri Mataji: I know aha you can call me everything I think, it’s quite an integration of so many things I have, but I would like to call myself as the Mother that’s the sweetest and the best I think because I am very patient, perhaps am extremely forgiving.

Journalist: And how does a Mother bring the light to Her children?

Shri Mataji: It’s a re-birth, re-birth and the birth is given by the Mother only, Father can’t give the birth. It’s an immaculate re-birth.

Journalist: Once this re-birth has taken place, you’ll have two minds two ways of living so no alcohol no drinks, how to move

Shri Mataji: No I don’t tell anything like that before that, but you just give up yourself I don’t say anything, you just give up yourself, whatever is not good for you, you just give up because you become joy, start feeling the cool breeze of the `Holy Ghost this gives you vibrations and you don’t want to do anything like that, now for example if you ask me to take to drugs I will not I mean I am never tempted for alcohol or any I am never tempted to anything I am just don’t get tempted or anything you just don’t do it yourself because if you are the spirit you are so detached. If you become the spirit you become the glory of the spirit, you have the powers of the spirit, you become such a great personality yourself. You just don’t do it, I don’t have to tell you, I don’t force anything whatsoever. You become yourselves that’s only when you become yourself you are great no doubt about it. It’s a very revolutionary time, {}very revolutionary you should see the signs of revolution we never had so many seekers we never had so many confusions so many problems and in that confusion only, the lotus of your spirit is going to shine. We say in Sanskrit that only in the mud and mire of confusion the lotus is born.

It cannot be a money making proposition I mean that you must have understood now, cannot be and it has to be effortless, and you get empowered by it you see if you say I am twice-born alright you certify, but what is your power? If you are twice-born what do you know? You actually become, become, again I say become is very important that on your central nervous system you can feel another person, on your fingertips you can feel the centres of another person and your own, now only thing what you have to know and get it corrected, that’s all if you know the method it is finished, hardly you take a month at the most to know about.

Journalist: Can you explain to people, for instance, tonight in Brussels?

Shri Mataji: Yes I, I decode things now for example now supposing this centre is catching this centre is catching supposing you are feeling the burning on these centres then what does it mean, I am just decoding it, and then they verify it and is a fact it works out.

We are the real computer I tell you only we are to be put to the mains. We are the masters of all the computers, we have created computers, but we become the divine computers and there is divine all-pervading power which does all living work like these flowers, flowers becoming fruits, we cannot do even one, and when that starts flowing through us must only know how to manoeuvre it. We are to be put to the mains, that’s the point is, and this kundalini acts like a chord. It is there in all of us.

First, it was just people told about it, talked about it, and one or two flowers on the tree of life I should say. It was a secret also, but now blossom time, so many flowers have to become fruits, real blossom time, I tell you, beautiful people, we have in this world.

They are unknown but they are beautiful people. Sinister people are very few actually, those who have made our lives miserable, but we can outwit them once we get aware of ourselves we can outwit all of them. Nobody can touch us, and there is divine power and such blessings you can’t believe it the miracles of Sahaja Yoga you cannot believe it.

Today only when I came in the morning one of the Sahaja Yogi’s was standing very close to the car and the whole of Mercedes went over his foot and nothing happened to his foot, nothing, he didn’t even get the pain, we saw it, it is, God is very great He’s the He’s the real charismatic personality you can’t think of. You can’t imagine how great he is we just have to know Him, but when you talk of God in these modern times people don’t want to hear from you. It’s not fanaticism it’s not all that non-sense its actualization.

Journalist: Did you meet the Pope anytime?

Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon

Journalist: Did you meet the Pope anytime? Or did you think of meeting him?

Shri Mataji: Oh, (laugh) They are just the same, actually I met Pope much earlier, that you need not write I am just telling you, when I went to Poland, I went on 1st of September to Poland about just before he became the Pope, I don’t remember the year and because my husband is a VIP and all that is they asked me where would you like to go so I said I would like to see a good church and an organ so they took me to Cracow while my husband went for his own work, and there it was this gentle man was a cardinal, I raised his Kundalini alright but I didn’t tell him because I mean he won’t take it from me anything, it does, it did pierce no doubt it did pierce, it comes up sometimes but then again it goes down, I am sorry but that’s what it is, so to become a Pope is very easy, very easy, I mean to become a Pope what is so great I mean you can be elected human made its a manmade stuff, for God made, you have to little bit work it out, that’s what has happened in his case I wish, sometimes he does gives vibrations, again it stops again he has to work it out.

I went to Cracow but it was so it was so, it was so historical I should say because it was the first of September and I was very sad, and my husband said why are you so sad I said this country must be very sad on this day sometime, and then we discovered it was the day first day when it was bombed, Warsaw was bombed and eighth of September is the day they celebrate the Black Mary’s a birthday, and they take out the image of Black Mary, before that I met and then I saw that all that, it’s very historical I should say, but who can talk to him, I mean they wrote a letter to him whether he’s protected and you see you can’t talk to him like that cannot.

All that kind of a thing I don’t need. I mean Christ never had that kind of a protocol this that, I mean something different world they live in, I mean you just what can I do, will they listen to me? Will they recognize Christ? If Christ comes here will he recognize Christ? How will he recognize? Pope even, how will he recognize? Can he? Is there any measure? I don’t want to criticize anyone that’s one thing I would like to say no controversies, please.

This is what it is when you ask me the question, I have to say this, everybody is capable of becoming the self but must know that by becoming something like a king or a Pope or a Guru, you are not there you have to become.

These are all the appointments by human beings not by God. All these are appointments by God, here you have Pope, in India we have Shankracharayas aaa in Zen system also we have, I met the head of Zen I was amazed, his kundalini was frozen there, I didn’t know what to say to him, so I said Sir are you are you, not a Kashyap? He said no, we never had them for the last aaa six centuries. I said you never had it, they call it a Kashyap never had a Kashyap for six centuries so what are you doing Zen. Zen you cannot do without realization, everybody is doing all these things without realization, imagine we are telephoning without connection, it’s like that very difficult you know because you are so conditioned by them.

In India also the same thing, we are so conditioned by the so-called Hindu religion. Everybody is conditioned and everybody’s religion is in danger, I don’t understand how can religion be in danger, it cannot be destroyed, only thing is according to the time when they came, on the different times they were like flowers on the same tree, living tree same, but they are different times and according to the times they preached. Whatever was the problem at that time they had to face it, you see, today is the problem of evolution. Whatever they said people took out this flowers, this is mine, this is mine, these are all dead flowers we are fighting with it, you can’t blame anyone, maybe some are very gross we can say like Shiites we can call them gross, I was born in a Protestant religion and I thought they are the most sophisticated (laughs) fanatics they were known very sophisticated, extremely sophisticated are the Protestants, you cannot catch them. They will have a red cross everything all humanitarian, that’s not God’s job, that’s not God’s job, Missionaries job is not God’s, its human job, you have created problems you have poverty alright you look after it, God’s job you see is silent it doesn’t talk. Like say, I am sitting before you alright, I don’t do anything am I doing anything? I am just talking to you don’t know what I am doing to you, it just flows just acts it works. We have seen in the life of Christ somebody touched the cloth of Christ and the energy flow, he didn’t have any Missionaries did he? And imagine the missionaries came to India with the gun in the one hand and the Bible in the another and do you know who Christ was, it’s all described in the books our books as Mahavishnu it is described very well clearly who He is. But Indians could not relate Him to that because with the gun they never said, they said he is with very saumya is the one who is very mild and these people came with the gun and Bible they could not place Him there, I don’t blame that way Indians because you see you can’t expect Christ to come with the gun, not only gun but some Portuguese took cannons to blast the temples, they have blasted our temples with cannons can you believe it? Must be crazy people.

Thank God one thing good has happened, Columbus did not go to India, if he had gone all of us would have been finished by now like the Red Indians were I tell you thank God. He didn’t come here.

Like it if you go to Argentina you won’t find one Red Indian. I went to Chile not one Red Indian, can you imagine what these people are doing? People are not aware of what they are doing what they have done, and if you see the massacring Spain I am coming from Spain and when I knew about it the way people this inquisition they had for religion, how can you have inquisition Christ was crucified himself, what are the basis how can you do such things? If you read the history, you’ll be shocked I mean I was shocked the way they showed the inquisition there. Actually, I was not aware of it, we have to see what we have done in the name of God, in the name of compassion, in the name of love, what we have done.

They are trying to save now animals, for example, chickens they are trying to save the chickens, what’s the use of saving chickens, they have to save the human being, I can’t give realization to chickens, can I?

You see a political reform or anything you try to do is not going to help you, if you think democracy has worked very well I must say it’s not, I have seen Russia, I have seen China, I have seen also democracy, everything is about the same, nothing to choose.

I assure you by changing the forms of government nothing is going to happen but the changing the forms of human being only will achieve that kingdom of God which is promised to us. We have to get out of it, our forefathers have done it, their forefathers have done it where have we reached, nowhere, there is no peace in the world unless and until we have peace within ourselves, especially, for Brussels when I came I must say about Brussels I must say people are very hectic here, extremely hectic because I could feel it within myself you see there’s a centre which goes wobbly when the place is hectic extremely hectic speedy frustrated people, and this centre was doing like this and for three hours I was trying to cleanse it I mean I have I was trying to put it right just going on like this I was worried that when I face you people I hope it doesn’t go into (laughs) another wobbly condition very wobbly people are very wobbly we must understand. Extremely hectic, now in a person who has got blood cancer you have this problem the centre goes off like that, the blood cancer people, because the spleen which is the speedometer you see becomes crazy, and it starts wobbling, starts producing blood cells of that kind, of course its triggered by something else but the vulnerability of cancer is like that and that’s what I felt when I came I was surprised how people are like that here, no peace. And we have the Europeans what is it here parliament (What is it here?) Common Market in Brussels, imagine in Brussels. We have no peace within, when I come to Brussels, I am Belgian, because I can feel that, I really felt you all, it is very simple to cur correct it very simple only this kundalini within you is to rise and everything will be so peaceful.

We are so nervous, and if it is our own why not have it? Supposing this is your property why not have it? It’s your right to have it. It’s your own property you don’t have to give anything. Like somebody asked me, Mother, I cannot surrender, I said what have you got to surrender me when, what can you give me I don’t need anything, what you have to surrender is your ego or your conditioning one of the two. What do you surrender there is nothing but ego. Only one simple thing we have to know and understand that still we are not complete we have not reached our absolute state, we are living on a relative level, we have to become the absolute, finished once you realize that much finished, just we have to become the absolute, we have been living relatively, it’s our own power we have got within ourselves why not have it, for which you cannot pay, even but it is a very big problem it’s a very very big problem I must say it’s like a balloon. It floats people into the air of course conditioning is also there, in the west, there is big conditioning especially of feeling guilty, for nothing at all they feel guilty. In the west people feel so guilty for I just don’t know why and the catch in this centre gives trouble in the centre, this is the biggest conditioning you have is to feel guilty for anything like you see now in England, supposing you use a fork and a spoon in a different way they feel guilty, I mean you yourself have created these norms like for alcohol you’ll have this kind of a glass that kind of a glass this that all nonsense now if you don’t have that way you’ll feel guilty what is this?

I mean you are very simple people also to feel guilty for all the nonsensical things. If a lady is wearing say a sweater or a coat say with beige colour, she’s carrying a white coloured purse, she feels guilty, very seriously guilty, I tell you, this is so frivolous, they are like children sometimes I feel Indians will not they are shameless (laughs) I must say they don’t feel guilty at all, I mean you should not feel guilty for this , Haa one can feel guilty for wars or things, but even by feeling guilty what is there and now like English feel guilty for what English did before, why they are dead and finished, now gone case you are different you are not them your forefathers are finished now forget the past. Now say simple thing forget the past future doesn’t exist in the present how can you be guilty, simple logic (laughs), how can you be guilty in the present forget its finished. Like that forget and finished is your past, so how can you be guilty? You have to be in the present, actually, we must respect ourselves. You are at the epitome of evolution we don’t respect our self, we have to love our self and respect we are human beings we are on top of everything we are not ego at all, but we are not also conditioning.

No question because you have gone beyond though I know that you won’t have you are feeling the cool breeze, you can feel it, just feel it just now, try to feel, Madam, you also have the experience just one minute you just have the experience, just put your hands like this you’ll feel it the cool breeze, just to open your hands have I not, have it, why not have it? It is free, alright? Left is there Do you smoke?


Heart, Heart, how are you feeling? Yes, feeling, the feeling, what about you?

Are you Catholic?


Then you feel guilty (everyone laughs) that’s one thing Catholics have done I tell you Catholics are the greatest guilty people, for nothing at all, if you go to Argentina you’ll be shocked they walk like this, all the time they are told they are sinners, sinners, sinners, they are not, that’s the reason, she’s left Vishuddhi catching but you know it’s very dangerous, you get troubles with this Spondolytis physical you also get angina to feel guilty only there is one chanting for that “I am not guilty” Then it works out, that’s the reason it’s not rising above this but it will rise, are you alright? Are you feeling? You are feeling relaxed though.

Yes actually, there is no worry now.

No there were lots of wrinkles here when I came now you go and see they are all vanished, yes. Are you alright?

Little bit.

Good. A little bit, yes that’s true its very subtle and we are rising from a gross attention to this subtle attention alright?

And we should be selfish about it why we are attached to anything? Attached to any ideology, any theory, anything we should get it you see this is what Christ has said you have to get it.

Those who are sitting behind you have got it. They also argued a lot with me but you did not I must say not at all they did not, never argue. But religion cannot be organised one thing you must know it cannot be organised.

Once you start organizing religion you kill the essence of religion. You cannot. That’s the mistake, thank God in India religion could not be organised thank God for that, where ever they have organised religion they became fanatics, so much, so much rooted into the conditioning of the religion, anywhere I mean I must say everybody is like that , they think no end of themselves or they get ideas sometimes that we are the best, we know the best we got everything, that’s not true, anywhere like Sikhs now I used to think Sikhs at least are better off, now look at them, gone off their heads, putting bombs everywhere, why should anybody who follows any religion should put bombs anywhere, just I mean is it relevant? They were also organised in India, very well organised, we have another one called Arya Samaaj, they are very ego-oriented nonsense, now the people coming out of it because when they get old they really become senile and they talk so much they just go on talking they don’t know what they are talking irrelevantly they just talk.

You cannot be anything, you have to be human being first, when we claim I am a Belgian, you are not, you could have been anything, just by chance you are born here or maybe you chose, doesn’t matter but still you don’t become Belgian, you are a human being, you laugh the same way, you smile the same way, feel the same way, only you think differently, maybe. So it is the difference and all that doesn’t exist in the mind of God He doesn’t create this world like Belgium, France this that, no he did not, we have done all this.

This is difficult because conditioning also is too much, conditioning of materialism is also here, and no tradition of seeking, this is the biggest problem I feel no trade every Indian knows that he has to seek his spirit and he knows what kundalini is I mean if he is not westernised, that’s one of the conditions, if he is westernised he is just like you, doesn’t know anything about it doesn’t want to know, anyone who is not westernised knows that it’s the kundalini awakening that brings forth the realisation in India. I went to the Himalayas, Dharamshala, people are uneducated absolutely came down over three to four thousand people, just came and they were told Devi Jagran, the Goddess will be awakened within, they know who is the Goddess is, they just came, I gave them a lecture, any problem? No Mother awakened our Goddess I said alright done. And such tremendous vibrations, they are not educated, they haven’t got all this conditioning on them simple village folk, all of them got realisation, they knew they have got it. They started singing dancing enjoying themselves oh we have got it now we ‘ve got they know despite their aaa I should their no exposure to western thinking or to education as such, they know this they know for tradition from mother, mother knows from her mother like that it comes to them from generations that you have to be the spirit.

Even Christian should know and I think they knew the whole thing got diverted, now there is a big controversy you must know, Christianity itself is a challenge, thanks to theologians, you must have a word about Mr, what ‘s his name Bishop of Durham did you hear about him? No? Oh! you must that’s the latest, Bishop of Durham says there was no immaculate conception according to Paul, there was no, no this thing, this is what it is, closed mind and then criticize me. what’s the use of adherence to something that is ignorance now this Bishop of Durum has to I mean attacked Christ immaculate conception His divinity everything he has attacked and for your information, the Archbishop of Canterbury has supported him, so now the whole Catholicism goes to dogs. but they cannot give up Paul also but, to be frank why Paul is then I don’t understand, can you explain? Why Paul is in the Bible, he has nothing to do with Christ. Not only I say that but if you have read Khalil Gibran he was a realised soul, this Paul is a strange man, he’s written a complete chapter on Paul, how is he there? Anybody who is a realised soul will say that he has nothing to do with God. He doesn’t understand God at all. Then came Augustine, same, same style, maybe the same incarnation, he also ruined it.

Now if you want to know about Catholics go and ask the Muslims, if you want to know about the Muslims go and ask Hindus, This is better to know from them, they are all sailing in the same boat, but criticizing either blaming each other. No use. How will they recognize Christ? Is the first question one should ask. When He comes there will be no Sahaja yoga then the last, he just sorts you out, the judgement is now, he just sorts you out. There will be no question and Michel Angelo has clearly shown it if you should see the Sistine Chapel very clearly. He is just standing there throwing people this side and that side that’s the Agnya Chakra where He stands, just throwing out He doesn’t do anything of that kind He has no patience, that’s what it is, and that’s coming very soon.

Journalist: You explain why the time has now arrived?

Shri Mataji: You see you are the time has to arrive according to your awareness you see. And the awareness today is that of that level, so it has come. That’s like supposing you are learning to aaa balance a cycle, now when do you balance the cycle when you balance it. (laughs). It is just like that when you balance the cycle then you get it isn’t it so now you are in that situation, so it is going to work out. It’s the season I would say, now supposing you want to have in those days Tulips, you can’t have isn’t it, now the time the seasons, and imagine with Christ do you think so many people would sit down and listen to Him. No, very difficult, now we have sensible people, wiser people, nobody is going to crucify me now, you think anybody can crucify me, no cannot, I mean maybe journalist may, later on (laugh). Alright thank you very much, very kind of you, you have given me very patient hearing I am sorry for the Catholic lady she didn’t like me much you see, but you should not be biased if you are a journalist you have to be a witness, a detached witness, then only you can help people, but if you are biased then you cannot work out, so I have seen journalists are either biased or they want some sort of a sensation to believe, now this is I am taking away from that sensationalization I am giving you a news by which everything will be smoothed out, it will be better and there will be a journalist but of a divine nature. We have journalism also in Sahaja yoga but then we talk of the miracles we talk of the savings, we talk of the good things that have happened we have, we have our newsletters and all that, but it’s a very different type, another world. We have some journalists with us also. Done now?

Journalist: I thought there was no question

Shri Mataji: I think he has gone beyond questioning. (laughs) Alright. So thank you very much.

Sahaj Yogi: Why don’t you come along tonight here.

Shri Mataji: Yes Try,

Sahaja Yogi: See how it works

Shri Mataji: If you can come along that’s the best way, you see , best way, there’s no challenge for it nothing no challenge, but it’s something very really to be very frank, very new for you, not for Indians but for you its new, you must come and have a look, maybe I might be making money also possibly, …laughs. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you all. May God Bless you.

This is the book. Have got some copies of that? We’ll send it, tonight at the program you can have it. Should we go now, Thank you very much.