Interview for “Trouw” Newspaper

Conferentieoord Overvoorde, Rijswijk (Holland)

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Interview journalist; Dr. Kranenburg, “Trouw” Newspaper, Overvoorde, The Hague, Holland, 4th July 1985

Journalist: I received some books and papers from you and I heard you yesterday evening in that congress hall.

Sri Mataji: Did you?

Journalist: I was there yes.

Sri Mataji: I hope I didn’t hurt anyone.

Journalist: And I liked to read it and to see what it is because I am interested in such things.

Sri Mataji: Yes, one should be. Very important!

Journalist: And I sometimes write about it in the newspapers and…

Sri Mataji: That’s it.

Journalist: And they asked me to think about it first… (Interruption)

I have many questions, I hope you… They are different kinds.

Sri Mataji: Yes, yes I don’t mind. I don’t mind.

Journalist: But first I was speaking here with some of your friends and I asked; what is the difference between your method and other methods…?

Sri Mataji: Of yogas?

Journalist: Yes

Sri Mataji: No, there is no difference at all. But I don’t think anybody has studied the entire thing in modern times. I mean, it’s just a wee bit of it here and there, you see. So it shows no integration but it’s all integrated, something that Patanjali wrote himself. Patanjali wrote.

Journalist: Patanjali.

Sri Mataji: Now, I don’t know how many have read the real Patanjali. Maybe, it’s such a big book, Patanjali’s “Yoga Shastra”. And yoga means to be one with the divine. There is no other meaning to it. Also it means another word, it’s a Sanskrit word, means ‘yukti’. Yukti means the…not trick, is not… deftness, deftness to handle this power, we can say. Or the trick of the technique, trick of the technique, Yukti, yukti is the word.

Journalist: Yukti, yes.

Sri Mataji: Now, if you read Patanjali, you see, he has talked of nothing but self-realisation and three fourths of the book deals only with what happens after realisation; how to establish it, how to do it, this, that. Now Patanjali existed thousands of years back and we had another system of society which was called ‘Chaturwar’. Like we had four ashramas, four styles of life.

In the first style of life you had to be about from 20 to 25 years in complete ‘bramacharya’, celibate, and with a teacher, guru, who was a realised soul. And his guru, the adi guru, the one who was the principal guru, was also a realised soul.

Now in India, even today, supposing my family has been to some guru; that is a university. Now that university is called a Gotra. Even today we can not marry in the same gotra, even today. Like I am from Chandilia gotra so I cannot marry in the Chandilia gotra. So the celibacy is still up to now, because we are all brothers and sisters in the university. Such pure relationships are kept there.

And if your attention is not taken to these things, you remain celibate without any trouble until that age. But if the attention is all the time driven into it, like by the media, this, that, then you cannot be. I mean you cannot protect yourself against these temptations then. I mean, you are made to be tempted.

So then at that time whatever he taught, I mean it is.., you can say he himself didn’t teach every one but the people who adopted the method was this that they used to cleanse the different centres. By also yaman, yamas and all those things we need, pratjaha…All those things, you see, the methods by which they used to cleanse the chakras of people. But they were knowledgeable people. Not anybody can do it. Just that you stand on your head, do this; they were very knowledgeable. Because they thought that if they cleanse all these chakras like that, you see, the force of the Kundalini would be much more and it can push it through. But very few people were taken for self-realisation, very few. Like they say that Nachiketa is the only one they had, who went to Janaka, Raja Janaka; one person, at the time of Rama.

Journalist: Yes, that is long ago. (Laughs)

Sri Mataji: But then thousands of years back, you see. Now people have evolved in their spirituality. My main problem when I was born was that I knew what I had to do. And was that… till the time of Christ,… the sixth centre is established now. The sixth centre is very well established.

Journalist: In the time of Christ it’s the sixth centre?

Sri Mataji: Yes, the sixth centre, Agnya chakra, a very important centre; very, very important. Christ plays a very big role because there is a very small little gate, you see, through which you have to pass, into the limbic area. And then the Kundalini rises and would cross up to Agnya, but it was difficult to break through. So I said if I could establish the seventh centre and open it, then things would be much easier. If there is an outlet, then Kundalini will move much faster.

Journalist: So this is a special time in which we are living because now we can have the unity between…

Sri Mataji: Very special. This is the judgement, this is the judgement time; this is the judgement time. And Kundalini is going to judge, and you are going to judge yourself through your Kundalini. Nobody needs judging.

Journalist: Yesterday you were speaking about the authors of the last century who wrote books about Kundalini that it was so dangerous to…

Sri Mataji: This is a false thing.

Journalist: But which book…

Sri Mataji: This is a book Vishnutit wrote, the first book, Vishnutit. From there everybody… Vishnutit was translated, you see.

Journalist: Also writers as Avalon and Woodruff are not…

Sri Mataji: You see, I tell you, the trouble is, without realisation you cannot understand anything. In the Vedas also, ‘vida’, now the word vida itself can be very dangerous. Vida doesn’t know by mind, it means on your central nervous system, vida. That you should feel it on your central nervous system, it should be inbuilt. But vida can be said, a person who knows by their brain, you see something… Now supposing, you know something about India, supposing, take an example, you have not been there, you have no experience. What’s the use? But up to… I would say that Kamildas was only about 300, 400 years back. Ramdasa was at the time of the English, Ramdas Swami in Maharastra, was just when the English were there. He wrote all these things.

Journalist: Ramdas Swami?

Sri Mataji: Ramdas Swami, he was the guru of Shivaji.

Journalist: Of Shivaji?

Sri Mataji: Maharasthra has got the purest knowledge of Kundalini somehow because it’s the land of the saints, Maharasthra. And he wrote also, I mean it is hardly 300 years he was. So you cannot say that these books have come before, because this Vishnutit book was written about 70 years back they say. I don’t know the exact dates of that. But about Kundalini, even if you have read Brigumuni, Brigu was one of the great scholars, originator of Indian astrology, Brigu. He is the one. Brigumuni. Now he has written one book, the Brigusangita which is the astrology, Sangita. One book and another is the Nadigranth. Now this Nadgranth has described these types and he has said about Kundalini awakening. That it will take place and thousands will get it. And he has described all these things. A hundred years back, I would say, William Blake has described it.

Journalist: But he didn’t know the Kundalini. He didn’t hear about the word.

Sri Mataji: No he did, he did.

Journalist: He did?

Sri Mataji: He did. But you see the thing is he has used not straight forward words for anything. You see for everything he has used another of his own words, you see, because people wouldn’t understand him. And Kundalini, to talk about Kundalini was not even possible for Christ, I can tell you, but that’s why he said I’ll send you someone; the Holy Ghost.

Journalist: The Holy Ghost.

Sri Mataji: Three things; will redeem, will council, and will comfort. But nobody is looking out for that. And the Holy Ghost is the Kundalini. He was allowed to speak only for three and a half years, if you see. And in that mad world, three and an half years is nothing. In London for four years I was struggling with seven Sahaja yogis, four years continuously. So you can imagine what could he have said? For that also he was crucified.

Journalist: But it is not common in Christianity that the Holy Ghost is the Kundalini.

Sri Mataji: Because of this problem, they don’t want to know anything from anyone. Christianity is governing itself, you see. Why not see outside, where Christ was an eternal being? He didn’t belong much to that area. He might have existed before also; as something great. He is described in the books of the Devi as Mahavishnu, as Mahavishnu; absolutely.

Journalist: Christ as Mahavishnu?

Sri Mataji: Yes, yes. Clear cut, you can see the signs. He is called the ‘adhara’, the support of the whole universe. But you see the missionaries, supposing, came to India with a gun in one hand and the Bible in the other one. It’s called as the Baoutha. Baoutha is the one incarnation of Vishnu which is very mild.

Journalist: The Boudha?

Sri Mataji: Baoutha, not Buddha, Baoutha. Buddha means enlightened, and Baoutha, the one who enlightens you; who is the light, who is the light. He is the light. He said I am the light, I am the path, he did say. Didn’t he?

Journalist: I read you were born in a Christian family.

Sri Mataji: Yes.

Journalist: In a Methodist family?

Sri Mataji: No, no, no, it was…, I tell you it was quite hectic because I would say, it was … I was baptised by the Lutherans.

Journalist: By the Lutherans? Yes.

Sri Mataji: (Laughing) My father joined the Church of Scotland, Presbyterian; but my brother was with the Methodists. But I found they were very sophisticatedly fanatic people. Very sophisticatedly, because they had made everything into a mental stuff, you could not penetrate into them. And my father was a very learned man himself, a very evolved soul. He knew 14 languages. He was a master of knowledge of human beings; and he told me that “You establish Sahaja yoga and then talk to them. Before that, you don’t tell them anything, because nobody will listen to you.” Especially Indian Christians are the worst of all.

Journalist: So you first spoke about Sahaja Yoga already?

Sri Mataji: After breaking this seventh chakra on the 5th of May 1970, I started talking. But Indian Christians are not there yet in Sahaja Yoga; very few. Of course, my family people are, because they know me, I am like this; but otherwise very few.

Journalist: They are still Christian?

Sri Mataji: Oh, they are. Indian Christians means what? They are just given some money… or with some fear. Very, very funny things they did. Like they put a loaf in the well and said that this was the meat of a cow, and they were discarded from Hinduism. Hinduism is another madness because they send away people from there. So they became Christian. I mean which kind of Christianity is that? While in my family; my family is a sort of a…what you call a royal family, which is a dynasty. And in their family there was a mishap and that’s how they got converted. But they have built lots of temples and things. A mishap of a lady becoming a widow, and she suffered a lot so they had to become Christian. But not out of any conviction or any understanding, because Christ sounded very violent to us. Because, I mean followed by guns and canons and breaking our temples, you know. I always say, thank God Columbus did not come there; otherwise there would have been no Sahaja Yoga. Because he went to America and you can’t find one Red Indian there. It’s horrible! It is something I can’t… in the name of God, in the name of Christ, I mean it is just the opposite of that. You see it so clearly!

Journalist: But Christians in India don’t agree with you I think.

Sri Mataji: Not Indian Christians; but Indians are thousands; Hindus, Muslims…

Journalist: Also Muslims?

Sri Mataji: Oh yes, Muslims. Oh yes, many Muslims; Sikhs, Parses; Muslims from Algeria, lots of Muslims from Algeria. In Paris we have Muslims, we have Muslims in every place; Austria we have. Do you have in Italy?

Guido: In Italy, yes.

Sri Mataji: In Italy also. We have also Muslims in England. There is a very great scientist, Mr Hamid, who is an agricultural scientist; he is also a Sahaja yogi. He is an Iranian and he is has done an experiment with vibrated water, and he found that you don’t have to use hybrid seeds anymore.

Journalist: You don’t?

Sri Mataji: Hybrid seeds; hybrid seeds.

Journalist: Oh yes, yes, I understand.

Sri Mataji: But ordinary seeds which are supposed to be no good, if you vibrate them with the vibrated water… vibrations are nothing, just I have to put my hand in it like that; if you vibrate that then these seeds act like beautiful, rich seeds and produce better results. Because they can be reproduced also; hybrid seeds you cannot. And the food is very good. And to eat hybrid food is not very good because it creates problems in the brain I think.

Journalist: It was said in the papers that you have the power to give it, the energy to give it…

Sri Mataji: I have to?

Journalist: You have the power, the energy. You have the power in you, the power; you can give to other people.

Sri Mataji: Yes, but you can also have.

Journalist: Yes, but the power was already from the beginning in you is that true? You always felt it. So you didn’t have to discover it.

Sri Mataji: No.

Journalist: Other people have to discover it.

Sri Mataji: Yes, the power I had always with me, but I had to discover the method in the human beings how to work it out.

Journalist: You always felt the power?

Sri Mataji: Yes of course, of course. But I wanted to give an ‘en masse’ realisation; en masse. And for en masse realisation I had to study human beings. What their problems are, the permutations and combinations. Because this seventh chackra was to be broken; that was the problem.

Journalist: So you also gave it to people…

Sri Mataji: Thousands; thousands can get it. In India, I mean, I get at least… I go to the villages, the country side because our cities are very few and, of course, in Bombay also I have at least two, three thousand people, good Sahaja yogis. But we have to work it in the villages because people are very simple, not complicated and in thousands… They have seen it. (Indicating the yogis present) In one place six thousand people came. They come. They get realisation. But one more advantage that we have in India, they know about it and specially in Maharasthra, they know what Kundalini is. That it is the Kundalini awakening that gives…. They are waiting for it. Even in the Himalayas, I went to one place called Dharamsala, three thousand people came. It was written that there will be a ‘devi jagra’. Devi means the Goddess, jagra; that means the Kundalini. They all came; no questions, nothing; they just sat down. All of them got realisation.

Journalist: In Dharamsala? Where the Dalai Lama lives?

Sri Mataji: Yes, but that’s all different.

Journalist: It is also Dharamsala, yes.

Sri Mataji: You see this Dalai Lama business is the same as any other.

Journalist: That’s a guru business. Yes?

Sri Mataji: It’s of no use, you see. It’s a money-making proposition. What is it? Why should we beg for money? Why should we ask for money? That’s not our job. God’s people don’t have to do all this. It’s a very funny idea. You see this is the human problem. You have created poverty, you have created problems; you solve it. It’s a social problem; it’s not a religious problem. It’s a big confusion. Now supposing somebody is suffering from any cancer or any trouble, now he can go to the hospital. The hospital can be built by the social organisations. Why bring God in between? But if God is there… supposing I have to cure a person, I‘ll just do it; just like that, without any medicine, without anything, it will just work out. So how can I charge?

Journalist: Speaking again about Kundalini, some time ago I read a book from Gopi Krishna. Do you know it? And he also writes about his experiences.

Sri Mataji: It’s such a naïve fellow; he had no business to write it. It’s absurd, but you don’t write it! Otherwise he will get after my life, you know.

There is one fellow (laughing) Eugene, who is following him all over. This Eugene fellow was affected by that Mahesh yogi.

Journalist: UG?

Sri Mataji: Eugene. His name is Eugene. He is from America. He is a New York fellow. He is assisting him; he is going round with him all over. So first of all, he got ideas that he must kill his parents. He came to me in India. I could not meet him so he came to London.

Journalist: Eugene?

Sri Mataji: This Eugene fellow. Now, but don’t give his name. (Laughing)

Journalist: No, No, no.

Sri Mataji: You know these people are horrible. So this one person came to me; and then he told me that the second idea he got was to kill himself. And then he said, “This is not good. Why is it happening?” So his parents actually brought him to India, but they could not see me so they left him in London. Then I cured him. And when I cured him, he went to New York, and this Mr Gopi Krishna caught hold of him. He caught hold of him; and this Eugene is now working with him! Now what do you say to that? Now from one to another!

And this Gopi Krishna also got hold of our minister. What was his name? Some minister from Kashmir. And he has got 65 lacks of Rupees from our government for the Kundalini Foundation. There is nothing like that. It’s all a money-making proposition. I don’t know, what is this all going on? Kundalini doesn’t understand money. How can she? I mean nothing in your body understands money, does it? Say, you show money to your eyes, do they understand? Nose, nothing; so how can Kundalini understand? Nothing natural understands money, does it? Only we human beings do; because it is man-made.

Journalist: But they have written about it that it was… you know the book of course; that raising the Kundalini – it was very terrible. He wrote about that.

Sri Mataji: I don’t want to say but…

Journalist: Did you read the book of Gopi?

Sri Mataji: Yes, I have heard all about it. Actually, if it happens to anyone, that means that person is not a good man. It simply means that. Or something has gone wrong with his guru, or something has gone wrong with him. It means as simple as that, especially if the Mooladhara chakra is out. I mean it must be that the person is not virtuous, or not religious, that it has happened. Otherwise it should not. Or some wrong person has touched him in the wrong place and something wrong. This is like, just as I told you yesterday, putting your hands into the plug.

Journalist: Yes I understand.

Sri Mataji: Now I have given realisation to thousands; and these people have given realisation; and it has not happened to anyone. And then when you like blind people…somebody wants to do something and gets a shock and tells people, then it is actually an anti-God activity. He should not have written it when he doesn’t know anything. Because if it is the only way to get to God; one should not write such horrible things because everybody gets frightened. Yesterday, see, two persons asked me a question; and everybody is frightened about Kundalini; you mention the word. And Kundalini is your mother. How can she give you trouble? First of all, logically?

Journalist: Well, it is because it is written so about Kundalini most of it…

Sri Mataji: Ah this is all a money-making proposition, I tell you. A hundred years back, I should say, at the most. It has no traditional relevance. Kabhira never said it.

Journalist: Pardon?

Sri Mataji: Kabhira, was about only three hundred years back. Ramdas Swami was three hundred years back. Tukaram was about two hundred and fifty years back. All… they never said it. How is it? Ganeshvara, never said it. Adi Shankaracharya never said it. I mean he described it, but he never said that it burns you or anything. She is your mother, she is this; he said all this. Saundarya Lahari, the whole thing is about Kundalini only.

Journalist: Not all people speak about it like that. For instance, I read something from Muktananda and he also says it is very easy to raise it.

Sri Mataji: I am told he’s got six thousand ‘crores’ worth of diamonds. That’s all; six thousand crores.

Journalist: What?

Sri Mataji: Crore is how much? It is… one ‘lack’ is a hundred thousand, and a hundred of that; a hundred, hundred, thousand Rupees worth of diamonds.

Journalist: Ten million. But he is an exception that he says that it is also easy to raise the Kundalini.

Sri Mataji: Now he’s started talking. But if you ask people who have been to him earlier, they used to jump, dance…

But one thing is, you see, when they say this one must see: The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You must see what has… Now look at these people they are so knowledgeable. (Indicating the yogis) They can raise Kundalini. They can cure people. Now supposing we want to buy this furniture, you see. Now we will find out how it works. I mean, we’ll go to people and find out how the people are using it. Supposing they say, “Oh it’s no good!” you won’t buy it.

But I must tell you, there is another point, a very funny one which I never realised. But one gentleman came to me in England, I think he is a BBC interviewer or something; and he said that an Anglo-Saxon brain cannot understand anything for which you do not pay. Can you imagine?

Journalist: He did say that?

Sri Mataji: He said. Really I must tell you. On this my experiences have been horrifying. Then another one in Toronto said, “How many Rolls Royces does she have?” So they said, “She has none because she doesn’t take money.” So they said that, “If she has no Rolls Royces we are not interested.” In Toronto! But if this is the level…

Journalist: Well, yes. Sometimes also people say that if something doesn’t cost anything, then it has no value. Do you meet people who are saying that, yes?

Sri Mataji: But we don’t… think of so many things we do not pay for! I mean ninety-nine percent of things we do not pay for. To be a human being we never paid. To be born we never paid. Nothing we paid for. It’s only the human beings have created this economic want, you see, everything was free. We have made it economic; it’s our own brain wave. What can you do?

Journalist: So most people are speaking; you are right? And if they speak like that, then people from India say, “I have a technique you have to pay for.” then they believe it.

Sri Mataji: They believe them more. They believe them much more, you see, because they take money; because they believe in money. Also I think in all organized religions people pay money, don’t they? People thrive on that, in all organized religions. If you want to organize a religion, you have to pay money. And that’s how the whole thing comes down to that stuff, to that thing, that you have to pay money for God. I mean, supposing now they have to take a hall, all right? Now they have to pay for the hall. Not for God, not for me. This discrimination is not there. There should be discrimination. You can pay for, say, a hall. At the most they may pay for my travel, at the most. But they are paying for the travel, not to me.

Guido: Also it’s just a spontaneous collection, it’s not…

Sri Mataji: Yes it is spontaneous, yes this is it.

Journalist: May I put a question on another theme, about feeling guilty. You spoke quite a lot yesterday about it.

Sri Mataji: That’s a big problem for me I must tell you.

Journalist: It was interesting to hear that you saw that as a typically western thing.

Sri Mataji: Very much. You see they themselves have created it.

Journalist: In the whole of Europe, America? Europe…

Sri Mataji: Oh terrible! I think the people who feel the most guilty are the English. They are the worst of all.

Journalist: The English?

Sri Mataji: Very… I don’t know what they feel guilty about! First I used to think it may be Catholicism. But the English are not Catholics. They are not Catholics at all! I don’t know why, but for small things, you see. The English are, I think, very formal. And formal people always feel guilty. That may be another way; very formal. If you speak one wrong word in English they feel guilty. They are too formal.

The Americans are absolutely abandoned. They are too abandoned, they are also gone cases, you see. Two extremes! (Laughing) The English language is… I don’t know what they have done to the English language! The Americans are… they’ll ‘fix’ your breakfast, they’ll fix your brain, they’ll fix your eyes; they fix everything like a machine. The Americans are another extreme, and I think too much formality of the English. And in between all of them feel guilty; for small things I tell you; very small things, they feel. I mean it’s surprising how they feel guilty for all these things. Like one lady said that she is feeling very guilty for what is happening in Vietnam. I said: “Are you responsible? Why are you feeling guilty for Vietnam?” Or for your forefathers; The English would say we feel very guilty for what we did. You never did anything in India. That’s your forefathers, they are finished, gone; you are not the same. It creates very serious problems, physically also. Angina, all heart troubles, spondalitis. It’s a very serious thing to feel guilty.

Journalist: Also in Holland you can feel that people…

Sri Mataji: Oh terrible.

Journalist: Terrible also in Holland?

Sri Mataji: Holland is the second. I think in Holland also people are very formal. Don’t you think so? They have been… now they are better. The younger people are better. But I think older people were very formal.

Journalist: Maybe. There’s difference with…

Sri Mataji: The Dutch character was very formal. I think the protocol and all that was a bit too much.

Journalist: I always had the impression that the Germans are much more formal than the Dutch.

Sri Mataji: They have another problem. (Laughing) They are never guilty, not guilty as such. I tell you they are not as guilty as they should be; but very aggressive; very self-opinionated. Actually Germans have no respect for anyone, no respect. They don’t feel so guilty. I mean they should be the first to feel guilty but they are.., I mean, their generation has done all this nonsense, isn’t it? But they say it’s a political mistake, can you imagine. To say it’s a political mistake; it was an accident. That’s how they justify it. Everybody has a different character like I say Sweden, Norway, Denmark, they have another problem. They feel guilty and they think they must be charitable. And they will borrow money and be charitable. And mostly charitable to wrong people; always; like this Dalai Lama. There is no need to be that charitable to this Dalai Lama. You know there is a pocket of all kinds of smugglers, this, that, and the Indians don’t see the point also; what they are up to. Because I get disciples from there also, and they tell me what they are doing there; and I am amazed! In the name of religion, in the name of Buddha! The things they are doing in Dharamsala is something I can’t understand. Now I get all this information from people who come hit from there, sick from there.

Journalist: Do you feel if you are in a country that there are differences between the countries?

Sri Mataji: Yes I do.

Journalist: You feel that very, very well.

Sri Mataji: On the being you feel it. Also I think people in the West have lost their morality, their sense of chastity completely; their sense of innocence and chastity. You see there are two kinds of sins we have. One is, I call it the sin against the Father, that the Indians do, or that we do not feel secure about money, and secure about our well being. That’s the sin against the Father. And the sin against the Mother is immorality.

But in that America will beat anyone hollow, I can tell you. The Americans are the worst in sin against the Mother, the Americans. Because I went to San Francisco and they said that… it was in the communiqué that it cures homosexuality tendencies. They said we don’t want it. The gentleman said, “I am a homosexual, my editor is a homosexual, my mayor is a homosexual, the governor is a homosexual; sixty-five percent of people in San Francisco are homosexual.” So I told them that you will get a disease, don’t go ahead with it. Now they have got AIDS. Now they have gone further, now they are saying, “Who are you to tell us? We want to destroy ourselves. We can destroy ourselves.” Now you tell them that you have no right to destroy because you cannot create yourself. He said, “Who cares!” So what should we do now, everybody should sympathise with them? Sixty-five percent of the people are homosexual, and they don’t want to hear about it. I mean it’s a simple physical understanding, any doctor can understand, if you don’t use your private parts in a proper way, filth and dirt, you will get into trouble! It is infectious, but for that you don’t have to go to God to understand. It’s common sense.

Journalist: But the Americans do not believe in a Mother. They have the Father maybe, God the Father, but not the Mother, they don’t have.

Sri Mataji: I don’t know, you see, we cured one fellow of AIDS in Australia. His name is Crosby. And again he did the same. He came out of the jaws of death, and he did the same. It’s a kind of a possession or I don’t know what it is! It is a possession. It is definitely a possession, I think a woman must be possessing a man and a man must be possessing a woman; because it is so unnatural. But it is not legal; and they said if I say anything about it they’ll arrest me.

Journalist: But in America you are not welcome then if you are saying such things.

Sri Mataji: No, no, that way, you see there are many sane people everywhere. (Laughing) I mean they cannot crucify me, that’s one thing for sure. (Laughing) Thank God our society has evolved that much that they cannot crucify me. But there are many sensible people everywhere.

Journalist: Do you meet very much criticism about you, very much aggressiveness?

Sri Mataji: Yes, they are aggressive, it’s now becoming less and less, but we have ways of reducing the aggression. You see, while talking to a person if you raise the Kundalini, the person becomes very relaxed. And then he finds it difficult to aggress also. Then things go into his head, he understands better. Or you can raise his Kundalini, he might become a realised soul and his Spirit shines and the transformation takes place.

Guido: In Italy they came by thousands. Shri Mataji has been on all the television stations.

Sri Mataji: Yes on the television. Yes that’s true in Italy. Italians are very sensitive. I tell you, they are very sensitive to serenity, to auspiciousness… just seeing my photograph. The Italians are the best people, perhaps maybe they are traditional. Through tradition they have learnt what is good and what is bad. Very good people in Italy and thousands, I mean… in Milano last year we had I don’t know how many thousands. And a priest came up and he said, “Thank God I have got the experience of the Spirit.” Like that, very good people, very sensitive and very open-hearted, you see. And the television themselves sent me… Six televisions – their cars and hotels and they said we… Well, I said I don’t take any money, so they arranged a hotel for me to stay, because I was outside Rome. And on the television I gave realisation, on television.

Journalist: On television?

Sri Mataji: Yes, I gave realisation to people on television and then we went shopping; shoes and all that I wanted to buy, and we met people in the market who said, “Mother you have given us realisation on the television”.

Guido: And the director of the presidency of all the ministers in Italy came to us because he felt the vibrations through the television.

Sri Mataji: Really?

Guido: Yes he is coming regularly to our programs.

Sri Mataji: Can you imagine! But the television people, the worst are in America. Worst! Very funny people they are, very funny. Then you just don’t know what to do with them, very superficial. And I think the Americans are still very immature, on the whole. Very immature, they are just like children. You see they are maybe good at money-making and all that, but as far as God is concerned I think they are still very immature people. Very superficial, on the whole; on the whole, I am saying. But they are good-hearted but Russian people are very good. I must say, solid. Not the administrators I am not saying, whatever they may be, but the people are all right; Russians; very good. Chinese; first class, wonderful people the Chinese, maybe tradition.

Journalist: What do you expect from your tour here in Holland? Do you expect in Holland it will go…

Sri Mataji: It is more than expectation!

Journalist: More than expectation. It is going also here in Holland?

Sri Mataji: More than expectation. I think people have sorted it out. I think they have reached the point. You see affluence has one good point; that you can see through affluence that it doesn’t give you what you want. For a while it does hypnotise, for a while, but then you get out of the hypnosis.

Journalist: And they are seeking.

Sri Mataji: And you start seeking. What we call as the principle of Lakshmi becomes the principle of Mahalakshmi. It is the principle of seeking. After all money is also a seeking, power is a seeking. But that’s like a mirage.

(Tape cut)

H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi